#sanboshi

[odaclan]

Nobukatsu's headship of the Oda family after Kiyosu Conference

The state of the Oda clan succession is kind of confusing, with various narratives flying around about what exactly came out of the "Kiyosu Conference". The latest research determined that the official heir is indeed Sanboushi, with Nobutaka and Nobukatsu intended to serve as guardians. The old fashioned narrative of Shibata Katsuie putting up Nobutaka as heir candidate while Hideyoshi supported Sanboushi against him is considered incorrect.

I have finally found more detailed info that seems to confirm the state of the affairs. This is a letter transcript from the 12th month of Tenshou 10 (approximately January 1583):

御状拝見候、よってこの表の儀、三介様御名代に相究め、若子様今日請け取り申し、供奉いたし候、当国不届の仁は曲事に相臥せ、ことごとく一篇に申し付け候条、その御心得あるべく候、はたまた委しき儀森勝申さるべく候、恐〻謹言、 　極月廿一日　 　　　　　　　　　　　　　　羽筑秀吉（花押） 　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　惟五郎左長秀（花押） 　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　池勝恒興（花押） 遠山佐渡守殿 　　　同　半左衛門尉殿 　　　　　　　　　御返報 I have read your letter. The Oda administration has decided to appoint Sansuke-sama (Nobukatsu) as the interim head, and as such he has assumed responsibility for Sanbōshi-sama today and joined the ranks of his vassals. Should there be anyone in Mino who does not accept this, we will bring to heel this individual for unlawfulness, and the whole province shall follow suit. Mori Nagayoshi will relay the further details. Respectfully submitted. 12th Month 21st Day Ha-Chiku Hideyoshi (signature) Kore-Goroza Nagahide (signature) Ike-Shou Tsuneoki (signature) In response to: Tooyama Sado no Kami-dono idem, Hanzaemon no Jou

The transcript is quoted from this post, and I unfortunately cannot find where the artifact is or what it looks like. Presumably this post's author took the transcript from a book.

At some point, I had found articles that claimed that Hideyoshi somehow flipped the Kiyosu Conference decision on a later date. He put up Nobukatsu as the actual new clan head, and sidelined Sanboushi. Wikipedia cites the source of this claim from papers from Aichi prefecture's historical archives.

However, we can see now that the claim is not entirely true. It is stated that clearly, the official head is Sanboushi. Nobukatsu is only serving as the interim head/temporary lord in his stead until he is of age. Still, even as just an interim head and not the actual new lord of the clan replacing Sanboushi, this would put him above Nobutaka. It does make sense why Katsuie and Nobutaka would be offended by this decision, and thus led to the Battle of Shizugatake.

Wikipedia claims that this decision to appoint Nobukatsu as the interim head was actually done in the tenth month, quite interestingly not very long after Hideyoshi wrote this exaggerated letter offering to commit seppuku and "follow Nobunaga to death". The cited paperwork (same as the above Aichi prefecture archive material) is unfortunately still paywalled and cannot be viewed online, so I cannot verify this.

Also, a note on the funny-seeming names in the signatures. It is common for people in this time to abbreviate their names and aliases or titles in that manner in letter signatures. "Ha-Chiku" is Hashiba Chikuzen, "Kore-Goroza" is Korezumi Gorozaemon, and "Ike-Shou" is Ikeda Shouzaburou.

Niwa Nagahide was granted the new surname "Korezumi" when he was promoted in 1575.

Tooyama Sado no Kami is Tooyama Toshikage 遠山利景, a lord who holds territory in Mino Province. Hanzaemon no Jou is his son. Notes in the article mentioned that Edo period chronicles from Iemitsu's reign claimed that the Tooyama family had already pledged to serve the Tokugawa at this time. However, since the original inquiry from the Tooyama side (to which this cited letter is a response) is nowhere to be found, we don't know for certain what's really happening here.

#oda nobukatsu #toyotomi hideyoshi #ikeda tsuneoki #niwa nagahide #oda hidenobu #samurai #sengoku #japanese history #sengoku jidai #sengoku era #sengoku period #warring states era #warring states period #warring states #hashiba hideyoshi #sanboshi #sanboushi #letter

[neverwatchedonepiece]

526-528: "Undersea Volcanic Eruption! Drifting to the Fish-Man Island!", "Landing at the Fish-Man Island! Beautiful Mermaids!" and "Excitement Blow-out! Sanji's Life Under Threat!"

HOORAY! :D:D:D

Will this be one of those arcs that’s filled with sympathetic villains? The kind of characters who... well, you get where they’re coming from because they have a cast-iron reason for their villainy and you feel conflicted about cheering for the heroes? Or will it be more complicated than that? 

I hope I like this arc. Ever since Arlong Park, since I learned about the Sun Pirates from Hachi and the racism Fishmen experience I’ve been hoping Oda might dig deeper into the theme. It’s early days yet, but from what I’ve seen in this episode, I’m quietly confident he’ll deliver.

Cthulhu Is... Friendly?

Must admit the Flying Dutchman action was a bit of a let-down. I thought Captain Vander Decken would be the next villain (or at least the henchman of the next villain). It was built up so well. The creepy “Dead men tell no tales” speech, Brook confirming he was the Real Deal, that the legend told of how the captain lost his mind, killed his crew and cursed the gods (who got their revenge by cursing him to drift forever).

I thought that might make a good plot line (that was before Hammond appeared and the Real Plot kicked in).

The Kraken coming back and sucker punching the Sea Bonze was so worth it. I laughed like a drain and could not believe I was cheering a Kraken like it was Hell in a Cell. Top it all off, Luffy, Zoro and Sanji came paddling back in a single bubble. And Luffy had made the Kraken his pet and named it Surume! Only Luffy can get separated from his crew and return with a pet Kraken. And laugh about the fact that he almost died.

The volcanic eruption action scene was fun. The Flying Dutchman crew and the Kraken would not mess with nature. The water glowed an ominous red and before Luffy gave any orders, Surume the Kraken was already checking out. Nami made the call for them to leap into the deep trench ahead to avoid the pyroclastic flow (is that even possible underwater? I have no idea.)

Usopp got to show off some of his skills by shooting a net-like plant weapon that stopped the debris from the eruption from smashing Sunny to pieces. (Could be good in combat for subduing bad guys.) I liked how Luffy was a good captain and praised Usopp and his cute Kraken pet for doing a good job. There’s that leadership shining through.

This was just before a stray rock bonked Surume on the head and the Strawhats woke up... ten thousand meters under the sea?

But... how? I thought. 

It was bright. There was natural light and vivid colours. How? 

Because it was Fishman Island! :D

Cannot lie. I was excited to finally see it. I wonder how it was for manga readers then to see that place brought to life after so long. I mean, how many chapters was it since it was first mentioned in Arlong Park until now when it was animated. I mean, it was huge! And there were entire massive trees inside the bubble. I still have no idea where the natural light was coming from, but pffft, did I care? It was FISHMAN ISLAND! :D

Then the Border Patrol Arrived?

At least, that’s who I thought they were at first.

And they brought Plot, which, let’s face it, is always good.

Three shady-looking Fishmen rode up on massive Sea Kings. They were so tough, they spoke to Surume the Kraken like it was a disobedient pet. Or... more accurately, as if it was a race traitor. “Why are you obeying such fools as humans, Kraken?” Surume fled the scene (obviously scared of these guys).

They recognised the Straw Hats too. I love how Luffy said, “Who are you? How do you know about us?” Um, Luffy... everyone knows about you now. xD

But these guys went way back. Much further than Alabasta, Enies Lobby, Impel Down or Marineford.

“You are the ones who foiled the Arlong Pirates’ plan. You stood up for Hachi and knocked out a hateful Celestial Dragon, just like Fisher Tiger, the hero of Fishman Island.”

They claimed they were the New Fishman Pirates and demanded the Strawhats enlist under their banner or be sunk.

Hammod did most of the talking but two others tagged along (Hyouzo and Kasagon). 

Nami and Franky knew Luffy would say no (and possibly put them in danger because they couldn’t fight back). They took a huge gamble and spent the last of Sunny’s air crashing through Fishman Island’s protective bubbles.

The dramatic tension when the coating shrank, pinning all the Strawhats to the deck was great. But it really ramped up when the first bubble ripped off the coating and the second one turned out to be full of water. I didn’t expect that twist.

Was that the closest the Strawhats have been yet to almost dying? 

Camie to the Rescue!

Luckily, they have a friend who was sort of expecting them. Luffy, Usopp, Chopper and Sanji woke up at none other than Camie’s place! (The others were separated. Franky, Nami and Robin are together. I have no idea where Brook is and Zoro is on his own.)

Turns out she works at a Mermaid Cafe on the sea floor of Mermaid Cove. The dorms are more affordable on the sea floor, as opposed to the ones higher up with more natural light. I liked that Oda has imagined an entire class system here. Mermaid Cove seems an okay place. Pappagu the starfish is in the fanciest district: Fishverly Hills (lol!) and is a famous designer. Hachi lives in Fishman District, which Camie said was a ‘rough place’. Luffy still thinks Pappagu is Camie’s pet. I don’t think Luffy completely gets how Fishman Island works yet, but Camie was nice and didn’t say anything. Hammond also hinted at another Fishman Island faction: Neptune’s Army, who were introduced later but I don’t know which side they’re on yet, so they seem like a neutral third party so far. 10/10 world building from Oda there.

Camie showed them around. They took a cute turtle elevator up to the “surface”, where there were clouds, blue sky, trees and rainbows. Luffy mentioned reuniting with Jimbei because “when Ace died two years ago, I didn’t lose heart thanks to him” (yes, Luffy. I’m glad you realise just how much Jimbei did for you!)

But Jimbei was not on the island. Camie seemed to hint the War in Marineford caused a bit of trouble in Fishman Island. She didn’t go into it, damn it.

Then, the royal family’s Fish Boat swam into view, heading straight for them, carrying the Neptune Princes (Fukaboshi, Ryuboshi and Sanboshi). The mermaids hid the Straw Hats, in case they were arrested for illegally entering Fishman Island. One mermaid made the mistake of holding Sanji... let’s just say a little close to her chest.

And Lots of Beautiful Mermaids

You know what, I didn’t want to say but over the past couple of episodes, Sanji’s weakness had been annoying me. Not really badly. Just that the joke was getting a bit thin because it’d been played so many times for laughs.

Now I know why.

Does Oda do nothing without a purpose?

He had to set up all the blood loss stuff because blood transfusions are a central tenet in the hatred a lot of Fishmen have over humans.

When Sanji had his Vesuvius Moment, Dr Chopper bravely came to the rescue. Just as the Princes seemed about to take the Strawhats (though they didn’t want to arrest them. Still not sure what their deal is), Chopper placed himself in harm’s way and shouted, “Stop! I’m a Doctor! Can anyone donate S RH negative blood? If Fishman blood is the same, would anyone be willing to donate?”

Chopper unwittingly referenced an Old, Highly Politicised Grudge.

Fisher Tiger: The Hero of Fishman Island

Hammond, who had been lurking, waiting for an opportune moment to catch the Strawhats, couldn’t stay quiet at that point.

“No one on this island would give blood to lowly humans,” he scoffed. “If anyone did, they’d risk punishment from the Dark Night, from human haters. The Old Law in the kingdom states that donating blood to humans is prohibited.”

When the Strawhats protested, Hammond fired back with some Context.

“You humans set that rule first! You people have a long history of fearing us. Didn’t want your blood mixed up with ours. That’s how the hero, Fisher Tiger, died. He risked his own life to free slaves of all races. But after a bloody war, he died. He could have lived if he had a transfusion. The heartless humans refused to give their blood to him.”

I was gobsmacked by that. Honestly. What a great twist, in terms of both plot and morality! How are the Strawhats going to fight against years of racism, abuse, toxic politics and the veneration of a martyr-like figure who means so much to the people of Fishman Island? 

This is going to be a wild ride.

Usopp dismissed the old law. He begged someone, anyone, to help Sanji. Hammod tried to take Luffy by force but severely underestimated how much stronger he’d become (that Haki, honestly... it is so badass).

Camie hijacked the Royal Fish Boat (the royals here seem pretty laid back because if that was real life, you’d be in your local Impel Down faster than you can say, “But I need a blood transfusion!”)

And it seems something is rotten in the state of Fishman Island. Not only are the Strawhats the first human visitors in a while, the Princes were unable to deliver a message to Jimbei.

I wonder if it’s anything to do with this shady character?

This is the guy who wants to see Luffy. The one Hammond calls “Boss.” Hordy Jones, I think his name was? And here we have a shady face, not entirely revealed, sharp teeth and a good voice actor? This has happened before with Moria and Crocodile. Could this be the villain? Is this Hordy Jones, or is he higher up the chain?

I hope so. Was blue-balled with the Flying Dutchman stuff. Don’t want it happening again, haha.

Also, who or what is Noah? Was confused as to whether it was a location or a person.

*insert Rocky Theme tune*

#one piece #neverwatchedonepiece #nwop #never watched one piece #monkey d. luffy #roronoa zoro #sanji #usopp #nami #tony tony chopper #nico robin #franky #brook #fishman island #camie #jimbei #hordy jones #hammond #hachi #fisher tiger #hyouzou #kasagon #surume #fukaboshi #ryuboshi #senboshi #pappagu #Pappug

[odaclan]

Was Nobukatsu ever put forward as a potential successor of the Oda clan headship?

Alas, I missed the memoriam date for Honnouji, so I shall make do with discussing the Kiyosu Conference. To be fair, it was the Julian date of Honnouji that I  missed and, as such, the proper Gregorian date is not actually here yet, but be that as it may...

Something that I’m finding hard to pursue is the issue of what was going on in the “Kiyosu Conference”, where the future of the Oda clan was mediated and discussed. The common knowledge story is that Shibata Katsuie presented Nobutaka as the new heir, while Hideyoshi presented Sanboushi. Nobukatsu was present, but it’s rare to see anyone make a claim that he was presented as a potential successor during the meeting.

Despite modern perception that Nobukatsu was incompetent, it would seem that he was not viewed that way in his lifetime. A review on the Seishuu Gunki (War Chronicles of Ise Province) claim that Nobukatsu was presented in a neutral light and there was nothing deriding him for incompetence. Even if for some reason Tokugawa rule forbids chronicles to say bad things about a daimyou, I should imagine if he had a reputation of being a fool, it would be at least mentioned somewhere. There was no issue in Ota Gyuuichi writing “in his youth Nobunaga had the reputation of being a Fool” in the Shinchoukouki, after all. In which case, if Nobutaka was eligible for nomination as heir, then so was Nobukatsu. 

*Edit: Now that I have Seishuu Gunki, it turns out there were a few stories criticising him for making unwise decisions, but it’s all followed by comments that amount to something like “This is a common thing among samurai lords of this time”, so I’m not sure what to make of it.

So, was he ever a contender in this succession debate? Even in the “common knowledge” stories, when Sanboushi was named the new lord, there were narratives that mentioned that Nobukatsu would take priority in serving as Sanboushi’s guardian over Nobutaka. Meaning that he was still being valued rather highly, even if only due to the order of seniority.

There was a theory that someone had nominated him, and he was indeed named the lord of the Oda due to Hideyoshi supposedly changing his opinion at some point. It’s just that the cited source was a research paperwork from Aichi prefecture that, the last time I checked, was paywalled and I would be required to actually call the office in Japan to make inquiries. 

A few years ago, there was also a discovery of a letter bearing Nobukatsu’s signature and addressed to Hideyoshi. Historians speculated that the contents of the letter indicated that he desired to become his brother’s successor as lord of the Oda. However, due to lack of further information, this is still rather unclear.

As of now, the only detailed citation I was able to find was from James Murdoch’s book:  

A few weeks after the death of Nobunaga all his great vassals assembled at the Castle of Kiyosu in Owari to decide upon his successor. Nobuo (Nobukatsu), the eldest surviving son, was supported by Ikeda and Gamo, a young and brilliant captain of Omi, while Nobutaka’s claims were strongly and hotly urged by Shibata and a certain Takikawa, who had gained considerable reputation and influence during the campaign against Takeda of Kai at the beginning of the year, when he had been made Daimyo of Kodzuke. This Takikawa had an intense hatred for Hideyoshi, and this community of sentiment doubtless had much to do with the support he lent to Shibata’s view of how the feudal law of the Empire should be construed in the case they had to decide.

As might have been foreseen, Hideyoshi came forward as the champion of Nobunaga’s baby grandson, Samboshi. After a long and acrimonious wrangle it was finally decided that Samboshi should be acknowledged as head of the House of Oda, that Nobuo should act as his guardian, and that the administration of public affairs should be entrusted to a board of four—Shibata, Niwa, Ikeda, and Hideyoshi, who were all to rank as equals.

History of Japan by James Murdoch, book 2, pages 190-191

He did not quote or name any source for this, so presumably this was based on a Japanese text. Murdoch tends to only make direct quotes from texts of European origin. 

This means that at some point, there was a Japanese account that made this claim. It just either got lost in the 100 or so years since Murdoch’s writing, or fell out of favour in the public eye for whatever reason. I could not find any Japanese source that present this narrative yet. Considering all the strange narratives Murdoch presented in this very same book, it would make sense if this narrative was debunked due to the source being untrustworthy or being outright absurd. I still wish I knew what the original source was, for further research.

Also interesting is that this text claims that Takigawa (Kazumasu) is the one who hates Hideyoshi. Popular fiction usually depicts Shibata as the one who harbours dislike for Hideyoshi, probably due to the impression made by Battle of Shizugatake. 

Lastly, there is also the issue of a new theory claiming that “All of those are wrong, Sanboushi (Hidenobu) was unanimously agreed as the one sole heir the whole time”. I sure hope there’d be more easily-accessed documentation that I could find, because it’s impossible for me to track down and/or buy all the books that contain the information.

#oda nobukatsu #Oda Hidenobu #sanboshi #Sanboushi #Kiyosu Conference #Hashiba Hideyoshi #toyotomi hideyoshi #shibata katsuie #Takigawa Kazumasu #Ikeda Tsuneoki #Gamou Ujisato #Gamo Ujisato #Oda Nobutaka

[odaclan]

I just noticed that Nobukatsu’s son, Oda Hidekatsu, was also named “Sanboshi/Sanposhi” as a child, just like how Hidenobu (Nobutada’s eldest son) also was named “Sanboshi” as a child.

I wonder why. When Hidekatsu was born, I don’t think Hidenobu was old enough to have his genpuku yet (Hidekatsu’s born in 1583, so Hidenobu should be about... 3 years old?). Wouldn’t it be confusing if there’s two chiddlers with the name “Sanboshi”? It’s even worse if you consider that when Nobutaka went to challenge Hideyoshi, supposedly Sanboshi became Nobukatsu’s charge.

Imagine what it’d be like when they’re introduced to each other. “Sanboshi, meet your cousin Sanboshi”. Derp? XD Unless maybe Hidenobu had his genpuku early because he’s technically the clan leader (even though he’s just Hideyoshi’s puppet, but whatever).

#oda nobukatsu #nobukatsu #oda hidenobu #sanboshi