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ikvgai · 2 months
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the-reader-in-the-rye · 2 months
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TOWL analysis so far (spoilers):
Knowing the TWDU and how it loves it's "come full circle" style of writing, I've noticed something intriguing.
Okafor wanted to reshape the CRM, after his death, his legacy is left in Thorne and Rick's hands (let's portray Thorne as the left hand and Rick as the right--for thematic nuance).
Okafor's first lesson with Rick and Thorne is about "the cold war"--a disagreement on who has right to power under which form of civil governance--essentially Okafor vs CRM / CRM vs survivors.
It's now known that all top brass will be in the outpost that Rick and Thorne were overseeing.
In episode one, Okafor tells Rick to "swear on the sword", and how he'll "know the time".
Nat tells Michonne "you can believe a little longer and still know when to leave".
Both Rick and Michonne are iconically stripped of their character strengths through props: sword and boots.
[edited] "the only way you get away is if someone is here, making sure."
Now TWD is known for their transparent foreshadowing--and sometimes they try to force inorganic storylines to come full circle (season 8 with the "my mercy prevails over my wrath" and season 9 with the "forced friction between the coalition essentially closing with the signing of the charter".) However I give Danai, Andy and Gimple props because they understand these characters and their motivations, and are artistically behind the helm.
So this got me thinking:
In episode three, Beale makes this speech about Okafor:
"Okafor had a wife and he could have seen her again had he stayed on mission... He dropped the bombs and ended everything he was, everything he had [camera pans to Rick]. He showed us that our enemies can be our salvation [camera pans to Anne/Jadis] if we look at them differently [camera pans to Thorne].
[Beale unsheathes 'revolutionary war general' Hugh Mercer's sword--a man who fought on 'both' sides, was closely linked to George Washington, and died fighting on the 'right' side according to American history.]"
Onto narrative parallels:
Rick, at this stage, is post burning away the letters and phones, "ending everything he was".
Anne and Thorne are played as two sides of a coin; one could die on the wrong side and the other could back the right side. Possibly, both could work together, since they're both ambitious and self preservation comes naturally to them, and end up being the key to Rick and Michonne's escape.
The fate of Okafor's legacy has to fall to one of his chosen 'hands': either Rick or Thorne. For Rick, it's dismantling the CRM to get free (potentially targeting the top brass in one fell swoop) for Thorne it's committing to a mission (except she no longer believes in Okafor's mission completely because of the Echelon briefing, she's losing grip on where she stands, and she's depicted as someone who stubbornly knows where they stand--trying to kill Okafor, stubbornly forcing Rick to return because she knew the CRM would go after his family, etc).
'Swearing on the sword' could mean appointing someone to power using a symbol of revolution, it can also mean swearing yourself to loyalty--so Rick might have to swear allegiance to Beale or the CRM (maybe in front of Michonne).
Michonne may need to turn her back on Rick at some point "know when to leave" and yet do so knowing "she needs to believe in them a little longer". So Michonne will likely have to make a leap of faith -- maybe jumping out of the helicopter counts? More likely this will come into play during the 'swear on the sword' scene.
Rick will only be fully Rick when he puts his iconic boots back on. Michonne will only fully be Michonne when she has her sword. Rick and Michonne can then proceed to "do anything together" when their characters have been restored through their ownership of iconic props again.
Thorne is most likely the someone "there to make sure Rick and Michonne can stay safe and gone". I don't think she's written in any romantic/spurned/rejected capacity, she's more like a kindred spirit, but one who believes in the CRM mission because she can't go back home. Most likely, her character is written to be a house of cards--either she topples or she stays strong and protects her 'family' while staying on Okafor's mission.
Of course there is a worse, more on the nose reading of the camera panning to Rick when Beale said: "Okafor sacrificed his wife for the greater good" and I am not playing that game!
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growingnerves · 1 month
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I saw the teaser and it got me thinking…
It’s not some mysterious happenstance that lead to Melissa McBride appearing on our screens again. She’s still around in TWDU because she is responsible for so many of the most iconic, rewatchable and deeply engaging moments and that isn’t easily forgotten among fans. We will always want her here so we can continue the story with Caryl as a united pair. And much as I share in the enthusiasm over how powerful her presence is, that alone isn’t enough! The quality of their story together still matters to us. The generic “thrills” aren’t working. I’m sure Melissa wants quality material to dive into as much as the fans do. She considers us in a way that others working on this spin-off will not. However, the fans will always be an objectively important aspect to the show’s ongoing success or failure. After all, who’s going to be watching?
It can be hard to believe our voices are being heard after countless disappointments, cruel shipbaity manipulations and needless retconning; it has often felt like we haven’t been valued. But the more we speak up about our expectations, the greater chance we have of getting them met. I don’t want past missteps to discourage us to the point of accepting something merely “inoffensive.” Let’s think of what this spin-off could be!
Nothing in those promos is engaging me on a meaningful level and this far along into a story, that shouldn’t be a difficult task. We need to see major changes going forward, especially with the writing. The title alone is unacceptable, and even if I could accept it (which I can’t!), “acceptable” isn’t enough. Once whatever future we get for Carol and Daryl is on our screens, it can’t be undone. Once it’s been decided, we will have to live with it forever. So now is the time to have the highest of expectations and demands. Nothing is set in stone yet! Now is a better time than any to pour our energy into advocating for what we want to see. I’d rather be criticizing the show now rather than once it’s been irreversibly ruined by the current showrunner (Zabel). We know we are going to see Caryl together again, that is our only guarantee atp. Which version of the spin-off we get, could still change, especially going into S3! We don’t have to settle for a lesser version of what should be OUR show.
Our dedication should be rewarded with something to look forward to, not something that causes dread. The dread of further disappointment is what drove viewers away. It burned me out to the point I never finished watching S11 of TWD. I didn’t tune in for the initial season of the spin-off because omitting Carol was the most nonsense decision imaginable. The only thing that would make me consider returning is a storyline worth my time. Because boy do I get invested when I give a damn. Imagine getting a story with actual stakes and payoff. Something a little more captivating than watching two friends suffering through seasons more of the apocalypse.
The purpose of reuniting these two is to profit on their unmatched bond and chemistry. They are capable of anything when they are together and taking their relationship to the next level would open up so many new possibilities storywise. Give us something fresh tonally. Let the relationship develop naturally into something romantic as it always should have been. That’s what’s going to get people talking and clamoring for more. That’s what’s going to get word to reach those who left. Seeing a middle aged couple headlining a series is groundbreaking tv and that representation alone could bring in loads of new eyes and reinvigorate online discussion.
What show are they trying to sell me based on the brief window into S2 with tonight’s promos? Caryl’s relationship isn’t the centerpiece here. What I saw was an attempt to catch my attention with repetitive action sequences. There’s nothing original about shootouts and car crashes and distractingly bad looking CGI blood and verbal cliches. Carol interacted with Daryl’s props? That’s the best you can give me? The unique draw this show has, that makes the appeal one of a kind, is Carol and Daryl played by Melissa and Norman. That’s an absolute narrative goldmine and something no other show on tv can claim. I’m echoing so many other fans when I say this. We are able to see the potential for greatness. An emotionally intimate slow burn relationship built over many years will always have within it a vast, complex narrative to explore that new characters cannot bring to the table. AMC has a rare gift in their hands. Continued success of the franchise hinges on the network making the right call when it comes to this duo. That’s where the attention should go. That’s the tease I was looking for tonight. That’s the upcoming payoff that would win back my trust and viewership. I want to see something I can feel passionate about again. We understand these characters aren’t learning to navigate the world without each other. They are fighting to stay alive so that they can be together again and realize their relationship in a way that is new. Caryl’s history runs deep and they couldn’t give us a single emotional beat to grasp onto in the promo- that’s how I’m feeling right now.
Side note cause I can’t help myself but I know I’m not the only one who noticed that Melissa McBride is a total smokeshow in that teaser. It’s not an obscure observation by any means haha. She looked goddamn amazing and badass and well, fucking hot 🥵 It is an undeniable privilege to see this woman on our screens again.
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my-mt-heart · 2 months
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Is the reason why you want a female showrunner so bad because most romance writers are women? I want canon Caryl but I don’t want TWD to be Bridgerton or Gilmore Girls with zombies.
Just because I want a romantic journey for Caryl doesn't mean I want someone to turn their show into Bridgerton or Gilmore Girls and it also doesn't mean a female showrunner would. If we should worry about anyone taking romance in the wrong direction, it’s Zabel and co. who are now comparing Daryl to a “lonely knight” from a Lamartine poem🤨 The reason I need an experienced female showrunner is because she's far more likely to connect with a deeply internal female character like Carol and an unconventional, also deeply internal, male character like Daryl. She can highlight their nuances and appeal to a largely female audience + many male viewers who don't fit the hypermasculine stereotype. She can help that audience grow and get the show a lot of mainstream attention.
I’m not saying men can’t write for these characters, but the toxic white men TWDU only seems to hire now are far too self-indulgent. They don't write for the characters or for their fans. Look at how Daryl often comes across in S1– as a white American savior, eligible bachelor, emotionally constipated except when he’s angry, and someone who can make eyes at a woman he barely knows despite having someone at home. That's not the Daryl so many people fell in love with during the Sophia arc in the flagship show. That's not the loyal family man who wears his heart on his sleeve and reserves any "glances' for the woman he’s always loved. They write their male protagonist from a limited perspective and same goes for the women. They turn them into tropes like the femme fatale (Maggie), the “good girl vs the whore” (Isabelle), the “manipulator” (also Isabelle), and the “strong woman” aka a woman who acts like an alpha male. Carol was a badass in 106, but there was no emotion behind her actions. Why couldn’t we get a closeup of her face while she was mounting the bike? Why couldn’t we see how worried she was about losing Daryl, the man who means everything to her? Was it cut? Was it even shot? Why didn’t the male EPs think that might be important?
Look at the ways they gatekeep. If “The Book of Carol” is supposed to shine a spotlight on our deeply internal female protagonist, then why are Zabel and Richman writing half the scripts themselves and why are their no female directors? Representation offscreen is just as important as representation onscreen.
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Melissa will have had a lot to say about Carol's arc, which I think will make a big difference in S2 thankfully, but she still needs another woman in power to help her tell Carol's and Caryl's story the way she and her fans want it to be told and to promote Carol fairly. Notice how she keeps getting left out of promos or pitted against other characters or reduced to a subtitle? That does not mean Melissa has no agency or that she's weak. It means the misogyny at AMC, and TWDU in particular, runs too deep for her to be immune. She needs allies.
I need an experienced female showrunner for S3, otherwise I'm not interested. Zabel, Nicotero, and Gimple are a ticking timebomb. S1 was pretty damaging. I'm hoping S2 won't be, but at some point there's going to be no coming back from one of their careless decisions and I can't watch that happen to the two iconic characters who have functioned as fictional role models in both my personal and professional life. I need to know that AMC values Melissa, Carol, and Caryl as much as I do as a fan. Letting the men run amuck, letting them shit on Melissa/Carol/Caryl and their fans constantly, is not very convincing.
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cluelesslyxbeautiful · 8 months
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Welcome everyone!! 16+ please🫶
DM’s are open to 18+💗
*If I fellow you and you don’t have an age in your bio but your under 16+ let me know, and I’ll unfollow you. Sorry.
My name is Courtney. She/Her. I’m 20 y/o, bisexual, I’m really shy, born and raised in the middle of nowhere called Oklahoma. I’ve been using Tumblr since middle school but this is my new and only account. My hope is to meet and fellow others in the Lana fandom. Who understands me better then most.
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Some Music I Like: Lana Del Rey, Melanie Martinez, Taylor Swift, Billie Elilsh, Stevie Nicks, Olivia O’Brien, Meg Myers, MARINA, NF, Eminem. I will listen to anything and everything.
Song of the week:
Some Shows I Like: Supernatural, TVDU, Pretty Little Lairs, The Crown, Stranger Things, CAOS, TWDU, Shameless, Good Girls, Dead To Me, YOU, TEOTFW, AHS, and the list could go on forever. I watch a lot of television.
Shows I'm Watching/Rewatching Rn:
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Some Movies I Like: Beautiful Creatures, Practical Magic, The Heathers, Clueless, Scream Movies, 10 Things I Hate About You, Girl Interrupted, Lolita, The Crush.
Other Things I Like: The Sims 4, Minecraft, True Crime, I’m Into Witchcraft, Astrology, Editing, My boyfriend of almost 2 years, and Weed.
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My Icons: Lana Del Rey, Princess Margaret, Princess Diana, Stevie Nicks, Danielle Rose Russell, Misha Collins, Melanie Martinez, Dylan O’Brain, Madelanie Petsch, Chloe Cherry.
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*I don’t post much on IG or Snap but you can add me if you would like*
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frangipanilove · 8 months
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About all that Apple symbolism in TWDU…
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This is also an Apple, an Apple iPhone to be precise. I’m going to take a wild guess and say it’s an iPhone 3. I had the iPhone 4 myself and this looks more like the previous models. Anyway, it doesn’t matter, what matters is it’s an Apple product, probably the most iconic Apple product out there, apocalypse or not. An Apple iPhone.
When I talked at length about Michonne’s Vessel of Hope and Faith in my last post, this is what I was talking about. This is what gave her the hope and faith that inspired her to set out to find Rick. This is what made her believe (correctly so) that Rick was alive. The Apple iPhone was the catalyst for her journey to find him, which will soon lead to their reunion.
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The letters apparently mean “Believe a little longer” which ties right into the theme of Hope and Faith I was discussing the other day.
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When we saw Rick throw his backpack onboard the 762 vessel I discussed yesterday, his boots and the Apple iPhone with the etchings of Michonne and Judith were in it.
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So yeah! I’m pleased to observe that the Apple references are still very much present in TWDU. So far in TWDDD, Daryl has eaten apples, been gifted apples, traded apples, lied about apple orchards and what not. And we're only two episodes in!
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An Apple iPhone was what convinced Michonne that Rick could be alive, and it gave her the determination to go out and find him.
And for what it’s worth, the apple references so far in TWDDD have at least given this fangirl hope and faith there will be happy reunions in Daryl’s near future🍎🍏
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squiremaximus · 2 years
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top 5 tv characters
i went purely on instinct and just wrote down 5 i love because if i thought too much about this i'd probably go insane bc it was too difficult :/ ksjnfsk
felix carlucci - very surprising, i know
john-117 - he is just a little guy (me about a 6'5" super soldier war criminal)
leah shaw - she never did anything wrong in her life
will campbell - iconic, legendary, etc
iris bennett - THE best character arc and development in the twdu, i will not take criticism
miguel guerrero - i just think he's neat and probably one of the best characters in the purge franchise tbh
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studysummer88 · 2 years
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freefromthecocoon · 3 years
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ikvgai · 2 months
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my-mt-heart · 9 months
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Hi MT. Now that Dead City is over, I'm asking myself, why another season? It made perfectly clear what quite a lot people thought before the first episode even aired. Maggie is useless as a character. The same storyline over and over again. Nothing new, nothing surprising, it's giving nothing. Negan is an intriguing character but even he can't carry the whole show especially with the same storyline warmed up again while another one (his wife and child got practically kicked out) was chosen to be more or less ignored. Lauren said the original plan was different, that might have worked with an assemble cast (continuing the OG show). But even with the millions they spend, that spin off will be forgotten.
Whatever let them believe DD as a solo would even be working, why didn't they just throw Negan in the Caryl mix? The dynamic Carol/Negan, Negan/Daryl, Carol/Daryl/Negan is just explosive. We all saw how good this could've worked at Paleyfest. Melissa and JDM were on fire while Norman channeled for whatever reason his inner Daryl. The storyline, the subtext, the dialogues would've been pure gold and entertainment as its best.
They wouldn't have needed New York or France, just the backland of GA and some good writers. I just don't understand how they could let such opportunities slip through their fingers and robbed us fans of such an iconic spin off. (Yeah I know we don't know why someone got chosen over someone else and why there is France and not here filming whatever). But it would've been the best business and entertainment decision.
Would you have liked to watch it? Do you think it would've potential? I could write many fanfics just with the three because there is so much to explore between them. Could've been amazing.
Just never want to see JDM close to Melissa again. Too much has happened, the network and actors failed on every decent human behavior and professionalism.
I’m not watching any TWDU shows right now, so I can only go off of what I read. I gather the real issue with DC isn’t that Maggie’s “useless.” The men in charge just don’t care about her. Hershel’s basically a stand-in for tptb, telling the audience they should resent her. If I was a diehard Maggie fan, I’d be devastated by that. S1 sounds like a setup for the real story they want to tell which is basically Negan: King of New York. How anyone’s projecting S2 will improve the atrocious ratings, I don’t know.
There was potential for a Negan and Carol arc in S11 when Carol was feeling like an outcast, but they chose not to give her any arc at all. And because of that, I’m far more concerned about the lost potential between Daryl and Carol than any other dynamics. I want *their* spinoff to explore the rest of *their* story without distractions. Negan’s quite a big one. And, to be transparent, I’m not a fan of JDM right now. He can stick to his own show.
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my-mt-heart · 1 year
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11x23 Thoughts
Well. I did like the emphasis on Caryl and the Grimes kids as a family unit. When Daryl tells Judith she can't come along on the big mission, Carol admires how she's "thinking about what's after. That's a good thing. Maybe we can all do a little more of that." Like her conversation with Lydia previously, she alludes to the possibility of a future while Daryl is in close proximity and can contemplate what that might mean for the two of them. Carol just needs to give it some thought too and maybe she does.
In the train car, Daryl and Carol co-parent again, both of them comforting Judith when she brings up lost loved ones. Sitting further away, Carol watches Daryl wrap an arm around Judith. I think she likes the view, but she's longing to be closer.
At the end of the episode, Carol helps the others clear a path so Daryl can escape with an injured Judith in his arms. He says Carol's name, and she tells him to go, reminiscent of just a few episodes prior when Daryl tells her to go without him. I think they have to trust that the other can handle themselves while they divide and conquer.
We're down to the last episode, and pretty much every character has had a heart to heart except Caryl. They've talked about other characters with each other, but they still haven't addressed them, their relationship with each other, and it's hard to imagine the finale will provide enough time and space to deliver something satisfying. Too much has gone unspoken for too long.
Even though we already know we aren't getting the spinoff, it's hard to make peace with the fact that a life of adventuring together might be scrapped in favor of Daryl being "Dad." I know the intention is to draw parallels between him and Rick, but how do you justify separating Daryl and Judith when they've become so close? It's their relationship at the heart of the story now apparently, and where that leaves Caryl, I sadly don't know.
I think canon can still happen, but if so, I'm anticipating something anticlimactic or out of left field (for those not paying as much attention as we are anyway). Not how I want things to go for my two favorite characters and one of the most iconic relationships on television. But I'll reserve judgement until I see for myself. I'd like to be pleasantly surprised. And we still don't know what the plan is for Carol in TWDU.
Side note: What is this obsession with hacking off characters' arms? It's not like it does anything to build suspense anymore. My heart aches for Lydia, only because she's the victim of an overused plot device.
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my-mt-heart · 2 years
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In answer to @retiredkat's ask:
AMC wants to become a streaming platform, so it's more about throwing things at the wall to see what sticks and multiple offerings increase the odds. Isle of the Dead is a 6-episode limited series, which is basically minimum investment for the studio (ie. they're not confident), and it will probably be used as a springboard for introducing characters that will spawn another show. (TWDU is like a virus.) AMC also cares about licensing fees and other revenue from the international markets, which are a sizable chunk of income.
That said, the people wanting a Negan spinoff are a small vocal subset of the fandom. A Negan solo show is even less likely to be a runaway hit than a Daryl solo one. (Note that I'm referring to the characters here, not the actors.) AMC is hoping to boost numbers by adding Maggie, but the shock value conceit isn't going to draw a big crowd or one that stays long term. The show is a drunken hookup (potentially leaving a present), not a lifetime marriage.
(Where's Herschel supposed to be in all this? Back at the ranch in Carol's orphanage for abandoned children?)
MT and I already talked about AMC underestimating the way Carol resonates with the general audience. (That was on the blog, right? It's been a long week lol) In mainstream media, she's the character most likely to be brought up when talking about the actual content of TWD. Her character development is unique and comparable to iconic characters like Ellen Ripley (who incidentally was written as gender neutral in the sense that she was given the same trajectory as a male character would) and Sarah Connor.
Yes, there might be a segment of the audience who watches TWD for Daryl arm porn, but that's not sustainable viewership. He's a reactive character and won't be able to carry a show of his own. French Byways with Daryl Dixon will need a lot of innards spilling all over the place and things to go BOOM in a science-experiment-gone-wrong kind of way to distract from the fact that there will be no substance to the storytelling and a regression or a complete retcon of the character. He needs other characters to come into his own, so if you want plot, either you have to change his personality or have other main cast to play him off of.
(How is Daryl going to talk to French people? Pretty sure he isn't Cajun. Does the CW Public Library have a Berlitz language course he can stuff into his back pocket?)
I'm pretty sure all of these things make AMC nervous, but the show sounds like a one-and-done. Daryl goes on an adventure to find Rick. Once he reunites with his wayward brother, the whole premise of the show will be over. Just like the Maggie and Negan spinoff, AMC is making a minimal financial commitment. It will close out Rick's story (the movies are NOT happening) and expand the universe, which makes it worth the investment and it's also the very reason, like MT says, that we have been handed this rainbow sprinkled turd of a spinoff.
Tales of TWD is the show that's most likely to have better viewership. It's an anthology show so the studio can experiment with different modes and genres. You don't have to watch in order or even all of the episodes. If something is popular, AMC can create a new offering out of that. It's fertile grow ground and doesn't have to attract a massive audience. Like the others, it's just a 6-episode order.
The original concept for the Caryl show was a comedy. A completely different offering for the franchise, catering to a different crowd: those who'd watch for character development and smaller (ie. cheaper to produce) slice of post-apocalyptic life stories with a human interest bent. AMC wasn't looking for a huge audience, they wanted longevity for this show. It was supposed to be the connective tissue between shows, able to spawn new ones and the anchor of the franchise.
If you have a revolving cast by virtue of the concept itself, you have a more economically sustainable business model because there won't be as much inflation of the production cost. (TV shows get more expensive to produce the longer they run.) Carylers are loyal viewers and a large group of people, ranging from fans engaging online and those going to conventions, to general audience who watch specifically for these characters, to more casual viewers who enjoy this added element to their genre show.
What about "Diverged," then, right? It wasn't a well-received episode. No, but there were reasons for that which don't have anything to do with the MMB+NR combo being able to carry a show. As a storyteller, you enter a covenant with your audience where you have to make good on any promises you've made upfront. If you're producing a horror show, the viewer expects that when they tune in. They don't expect an episode of mostly physical comedy with an extremely limited cast, and an episode featuring nothing but Carol and Daryl will also depend on the chemistry between those characters. If 90% of the episode is spent apart, you're obviously losing that magic and like I said before, to best showcase Daryl, you need other characters with him.
It wasn't a bad episode and it carried important emotional beats, progressing both character arcs, but "Diverged" didn't fit the tone of the larger show. You have to meet the expectations you've set and this episode, which was mostly introspective relationship drama, was too different and slow-paced for people who watch for the walkers or villains or, really, the main concept of the show. Compare it to Connie and Virgil's closed-room episode, which functioned within the parameters established by the show. Mutated humanoid creatures vs. a rat as the main villain.
I hope this answers your questions somewhat. I'm not an AMC studio executive, so I don't have direct access to their market research, but I'm looking at what would be red flags to me based on my experience (which is about twenty years) in the industry, and they have to have concerns. I can see that they're limiting their expenditure by only ordering 6 episodes and that they don't expect more than a season of any one of these shows. They've learned their lesson from TWD:BW.
This answered some of my questions that I didn't even know I had. Ty for taking the time as always <3
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