#courtier badger

[wisteria-lodge]

badger secondary + burnt lion secondary (fun bird model) (healthy bookeeper badger model) (unhealthy courtier badger model)

Hey, there! So, I've known my primary for a while now (Badger Primary) but I've been a little bit all over the place with my secondary. Was hopin' for a little help.

The one I'm positive I'm not is a Lion Secondary. I have a Double Lion best friend, and I could NEVER be as blunt as she is, and I'd never tell her this, but I honestly wouldn't want to. Lol! Being honest is an incredibly important thing to be, but there's a difference, at least in my mind, between honesty and saying the first thing that comes to your mind without letting it go through at least a little editing first.

Gotta keep the intended audience in mind.

Yeah, not sounding like a Lion secondary. And I'm kind of thinking Deliberate secondary for you (Bird or Snake.) What you're doing doesn't actually seem *automatic.*

For Bird, there's a possibility. I'm seen as very anxious, and I find new situations pretty stressful.

I mean, anyone can be anxious... and especially if it's a VERY new situation - that can be a lot for anybody.

I love collecting knowledge, and I always have an assortment of fun facts at hand that I've tirelessly collected over the years. It's a fun thing for me, and I enjoy doing it. I was also seen as very "intellectual" in school (which I know is not a requirement for being a Bird or a clear indication of being one, but I figured I'd mention it.) Loved school and loved learning, and I still love learning in my adulthood.

The issue is that, when the chips are down, and it's actually time to solve a problem, I tend to just kinda freeze mentally. The way Bird Secondaries are described, it's like, when a problem happens, they pull on a tool they've created for the situation, and then BOOM, they're using it to handle it.

Birds are good at retrofitting old tools to new situations, it's true. But I don't think I talk enough about what happens when a Bird just... comes up with nothing. And I think the answer is they start looking like a Lion secondary, kind of flailing around.

(I also think that *young* Bird secondaries have a way of looking kind of like Lions, because they haven't had an opportunity to build their tools yet.)

When bad things happen, my mind goes blank. I just kinda start doing stuff, anything. Sure, I might remember something important, like some specific training, but for the most part, my brain goes blank and I go into autopilot.

I don't know *how* bad we're talking here. But if you're in full on SURVIVAL mode, this is where the fight/flight/freeze/fawn kicks in. The reason training gets drilled in like that is so it *stays* when your brain isn't working. I've always found that the really intense stuff feels very quiet, and very dreamlike in the moment, and the emotions don't kick in until later. But the point is... that's not SHC stuff.

So far, you read as someone with a fun Bird model that you love, but your problem-solving is probably coming from somewhere else. (Or possibly it's Burnt...)

For Badger Secondary, I think that's the secondary I wish I could be, but I don't think I am. I have ADHD, so being meticulous and thoughtful are just... absolutely exhausting to me.

It might look a little different, but you can 100% be a Badger secondary with ADHD.

I was raised in a family that really pushed always being a Badger Secondary, forget about yourself, help others, others' problems are more pressing than your own.

Oooh that's not a Badger secondary family. What you're describing here is an Exploded Badger primary culture. And if you're a Badger primary yourself... I bet that got confusing.

(100% your family might have ALSO have required Badger secondaries from everyone, I would think that's likely. So I'll keep that in mind.)

Part of me didn't believe it, but much of me still does. I like to help, I want to help, but I'm also Badger Primary, which can feed that want. Secondary is about what you naturally do to serve what you want, and I'm not sure if Badger Secondary is right. But, I do try to be there for people. My natural instinct when someone is in danger is to protect and comfort them, I'm very focused on the mental/emotional state of the victim more than anything else.

Gee, you write like you're a rescue worker or a firefighter. (And a Badger primary.)

When in any kind of conflict at work, I want to soothe them, to calm them down, and I try to become what I think they might want me to be to help them calm down, but it doesn't always work. Part of me also always wants to tell those people fuck it, you caused your own problem, you're on your fucking own. Lol. And it would feel good to tell them that. I wish more tough love was accepted in the world, generally. I would feel like I could breathe more.

Okay, there's a lot going on here. You "become what I think they might want me to be" which is - Deliberate. And more Snake than Bird, because of the whole one-face-per-person thing. (It not working all the time is neither here nor there, you're human, you'll make the wrong call sometimes.)

But... you like the idea of a more tough-love Lion secondary approach. "I would feel like I could breathe more." And there's something about the Badger secondary that you like... maybe it's that "No, you move" energy.

As for Snake Secondary... this one might be it. Only problem is... I kind of don't want it to be? I know there's a whole thing about not letting go stereotypes get in the way, but I want to be the person I pretend to be, I guess. I want to be a Badger Secondary, but I'm afraid I'm a Snake Secondary because, from experience, people do not like you when you behave the way you truly want to. They shun you.

"Behave the way you truly want to."

Okay, let's unpack that.

The face-changing guys (Snake and Bird) want to be behave that way. They are authentic, in that their face-changing is consensual. Same thing with a Courtier Badger, with the caveat that their face-changing isn't as much of a deliberate choice. But it's still something that they want to do.

They can all run into situation where their face-changing is forced on them (becomes non-consensual) and is therefore inauthentic. This is a separate issue from the Lion secondary "eh, I'm going to rub some people the wrong way just by existing, comes with the territory, whatever." And I don't know which one is you.

If I wanna speak more "bluntly," not like my friend, but just more plainly, feel more like ME and less like a persona, people find me too negative, too sarcastic, I speak for too long, or I'm somehow either too passionate or dispassionate and I'm never ENOUGH either way. The performance is tiring. I want to be free to be me, but the true me isn't particularly good at anything.

Oh you're Burnt. I'm so sorry.

Because what you are talking about here is neurodivergent masking. (Which is totally different from Snake masking, I'm sorry the words are the same, I know it's confusing.)

'Too negative' shows up when you don't know if a comment is appropriate to the conversation or not. 'Too sarcastic' happens when you make a joke that doesn't land. 'Speaking for too long' - hyperfixations. 'Too passionate' - probably hypersensitivity. 'Too dispassionate' - possibly a flat affect, or a tendency to shut down.

Now I do not diagnose people here. That is impossible and unethical. But I can say that it sounds like you're masking all the time and that is exhausting. Especially especially for a Badger primary who needs communities they feel safe in, basically to exist.

I promise, I promise, I promise that there are communities out there where you can take off the mask.

I try to be who people want me to be, I try to be the puzzle piece that fits best in the world's puzzle, and I fail at that. I'm never quite what they're looking for.

It sounds like you're desperately trying to model Courtier Badger secondary, and it's hurting you.

Too clumsy, too forgetful, too focused on unimportant things, and I ultimately can't keep up the facade, the cracks begin to show that I'm a fraud and this put-together, organized person is absolutely NOT who I am, and I am shunned.

So you've built yourself a Bookkeeper Badger model. In order to keep your life organized. Good. But then you're guilty and like, sort of imposter-syndrome about the fact that this isn't your entire personality, that this isn't *enough*

Then, I try to be myself. More funny, more sarcastic, slightly more blunt, just slightly, just enough to reveal the passionate and opinionated person I am underneath. I woukd never want to actually hurt anyone's feelings, but I have to air out the things I truly feel every once in a while. I have to be me.

Sorry to break it to you, but you're a lion secondary. And you're plenty likable.

But, at least in some circles, I scare people away. Like it's sudden whiplash in the differences between my two personalities. Those I meet while trying to be my put-together persona are usually really turned off by the more real, true me. They usually don't get me, think my interests are weird, or that I'm just too intense (hearing Angelica Schuyler describe herself in Hamilton the first time... I'd never felt more seen by a character in something EVER. Some men say that I'm intense or I'm insane. Lol!)

Angelica's a pretty loud Lion secondary.

Now, I know to some degree it's my own Lion primary talking, but I read this and think "that sounds like a them problem." I know that having a Badger primary is going to make thinking that way harder, and having an Exploded Badger family culture is going to make it even harder than that.

But, I don't know what to tell you. You sound fun to hang out with. And there's a reason Badger Lion is the Protagonist sorting, and the Starfleet Officer sorting. People *like* them.

Well, anyway, that was a long winded way to ask for some help. Lol! Were you able to pick up on any clues? Thanks so much if you even attempted to read this! Lol.

Always with the Burnt secondaries and the apologies....

#sortinghatchats #sortme #wisteria sorts #badger lion #badger primary #exploded badger #lion secondary #burnt secondary #bird model #bookkeeper badger #courtier badger

[reds-burrow]

It happened again.

"I don't tell this to people so soon after meeting them, but..." my coworker says and then proceeds to tell me about the time he had to bail out his sibling from jail and the other time he nearly got in a fist fight and oh yeah his family owns a company that half of you reading this would recognize meaning he comes from serious wealth. I nod and swear my silence and wonder if he knows our other coworker told me just last week about her rough past as a foster kid and the time she had to get seven stitches in her leg and the other time her truck got stolen. "I don't usually tell people this, but..." she had said before I got her life story.

I have no idea what I did to inspire their trust aside from being a friendly, consistent presence, but that's what it is to be a Courtier Badger. I fully expect to have my manager's PIN by next Friday.

#obv joking at the end there but the rest of this is not exaggerated #I'm still reeling from how rich this guy's family is #courtier badger #badger secondary #sortinghatchats

[mysticalenthusiastvoid]

I'm either in Badger mode or in neutral. Sometimes it seems like there's no middle ground.

#secondary neutral state #snake secondary #badger secondary #Badger model #Courtier Badger?

[softlyblues]

so in my dream narnia that has nothing to do with real narnia, there’s a city that clumps up beside cair paravel, because although i get the agrarian fantasy it’s just not realistic not to have a bustling city beside the docks!

the city is called pavilions in my head, because it’s built sort of clinging onto the cliff that the cair is built of, on these little raised platforms and pavilions. (hah!) and it starts as a sort of shanty town, because oreius and peter lead the army to the cair after the big battle and the coronation and hey! a lot of these people haven’t got homes to go to anymore, but they do have fuckloads of sturdy war tents!

so for the first year or so, they call it pavilions and wait for it to be deconstructed, but it never is. peter gets a bit worried and asks oreius if the army is waiting for any reason, but here’s the thing - when an army hangs around for longer than about nine months, it stops being an army and starts being a sort of mobile town. there are definitely babies. hell, oreius’s army has been around for a hundred years. there are KIDS raised in that warcamp, and they don’t particularly want to go back to long-defrosted burrows, no thank you!

so eventually lucy decides she needs a crusade, and she gets a whole pile of courtiers and hangers-on to make pavilions a bit more official. they make a main street (maybe it’s called broadway, or lions path, or something) and a few branching streets, mostly officialising what’s already there. some of the tents have already turned into wooden shacks, and so lucy and her badgers and beavers and otters and foxes and ducks and (weevils) do a bit of construction, get some of their dwarvish friends to quarry rock from the nearby deposits, and help build a lot of the central buildings. the pub, a few houses of dubious repute (ik its a childrens book but listen), a few market stalls get shoppified. 

lucy doesn’t commission them, but they crop up anyway. four statues, made of quartz-veined marble, and very admirable likenesses they are too, because narnia is full of craftsmen. but because pavilions is a piecemealy sort of city, there isn’t room for the four of them together, and they become squares and circles and gardens. queen lucy way. queen susan avenue. king peter road. the statue to edmund is beside a black dwarf bar on the outskirts of pavilions, and occasionally gets egged in the night, and edmund never goes to see it. there’s an official king edmund street, because lucy made the maps, but it’s more like an alley really, the back of a few market stalls and some crooked houses. 

#my writing #narnia #narnia headcanons #golden age of narnia #edmund #look i have a lot of golden age thoughts #and i so badly want to explore pavilions #you know that scene in the silver chair #where eustace is too late #in my head those are like bustling docks #beside this huge city #where did the city come from! #it isn't the cair #mnhc

[missbrunettebarbie]

CW’s Gotham Knights sorting 

Attention: SPOILERS AHEAD!

Turner Hayes

The first thing that hit me about Turner before he was framed for Bruce’s murder is that he was genuinely happy with his life. I expected a lot of Main Character AngstTM from him, the way most protagonists are written especially on the CW, but there was none (or very little) of it. And it’s not like Turner doesn’t have sources of angst: his parents are dead and he went overnight from the son of cleaners to the adopted son of a billionaire -and all that implies- without any explanation. You can see it clearly in Gotham Academy (and in the city at large) that he isn’t very liked. Actually it looks like most people resent him for ‘getting uppity’ and rising above his station. Just look at how Brody treats him in the beginning or how the people of Gotham are ready to believe the worst of him overnight. But Turner doesn’t care. He has his best friend, Stephanie, he has Cressida and he has Bruce. He loves them and they love him; more than enough for a Snake primary. Sure, Bruce may be a bit too busy and it’s annoying, but Turner can always distract himself with a party. Classic hedonistic young Snake.

Turner’s arc is all about betrayal and how one deals with it. Turner is slowly, over the course of the series, betrayed by almost his entire inner circle: Bruce, Cressida and even his dead parents. Interestingly enough he is the person who doesn’t betray anyone even when they turned their back to him. At the end of episode two, Turner is the one who went to save Duela from the Talon despite the fact that she abandoned him to certain death. I don’t think Duela was entirely in his inner circle at this point (although I think she, Cullen and Harper were slowly getting there from the very first pilot when they handed him the lockpicking tool for his handcuffs, thus including him in their escape), but I think it was important to Turner that he will not be the kind of person to leave behind someone who might rely on his loyalty. Another moment that comes to mind is finding out that everyone at the Gotham Gala is gonna be gassed to death. His first reaction? “Stephanie is there!“

Like all healthy Snakes, Turner adopts Bruce’s morality as his own. And he’s so successful that I almost wondered if he was an Idealist for a while. But what sold him as a Snake for me was him saving Cressida versus not saving Joe Chill. Cressida had helped the Court to kill his father and frame Turner for the murder but Turner saves her because ‘this is what my dad would do’. So he blows up his cover to save the woman who helped raise him and betrayed him in the worst way possible, despite the odds being overwhelmingly against them. But when he finds out Joe Chill had been framed by Thomas and Martha Wayne’s murders and will face the death penalty….he does nothing. Despite the fact that Joe was arguably more of an innocent than Cressida, Turner doesn’t even have a throwaway line later on about wishing he could have helped him. (This plus the way he has zero remorse over killing the Talon also made me rule out Badger as a primary.) That’s because Turner is Bruce’s son in all the ways that matter, but he is not his heir in this show. He’s too much of a Snake to ever be. 

His secondary is somehow even more obvious than his primary: this is the guy who had argued that they need to stick together from day one, who said that what makes them different from Joe Chill is the fact that they have each other, who was literally introduced to us extending a hand towards Brody when the latter lost the sword fight. He is such a Courtier Badger that for the first half of the show it almost overshadowed his primary. Not to mention, he is an amazing manipulator. Look at the beginning of episode two; after failing to convince Duela to trust Stephanie by vouching for her, he pivots: “[Put the knife down] or you might kill the one person who could prove we were set up.” He realizes Duela needs a self-serving reason to stop threatening Stephanie and he gives it to her. The same hyper awareness of emotional situations shows up again in episode thirteen when he wants to convince the group to have faith in Duela. The rest of the Knights are somewhat derisive that someone with Duela’s past and parentage could ever become a self-sacrificing hero…at which point Turner reveals his own parents’ secret: they were assassins sent to kill the Batman, and if they don’t trust Duela because of who raised her, they shouldn’t trust him either. And it works like a charm as the group gives into Turner’s wishes. 

Duela Doe Dent

Duela is such a complex character, I wasn’t sure of her sorting till the very last minute. I think what’s important to look at in order to figure her out is her mom. Duela idolizes Jane Doe and wants nothing more than to be like her. And Jane is the ultimate hedonistic Double Snake. So of course Duela has a Snake secondary that is always ready for a con. But at the end of the day this is just the model she wears because of her mother. One of the themes of the show is trying to live up to your parents’ expectations and what that does to you. And modeling Jane’s Snake sec I think made Duela to feel a bit invisible. In episode eight when she talks about how her mom had so many identities even she herself forgot who she really was, it’s the first time when she doesn’t talk about her with admiration, but with fear. Duela is similarly terrified of losing herself while trying to live up to the legacy of being the Joker’s daughter. Deep down under that playful Snake, there is a Lion Secondary that is as blunt as they come. Her plan B when rescuing Turner in episode nine? A bomber vest to kill everyone if needed. Her reaction to evil!Harvey? To taunt him by throwing the truth in his face. Turner is dying from radiation? Duela tells him as soon as she finds out, against everyone else’s wishes. As Turner says she ‘has no grasp on social clues’, ‘she always tells the hard truths’ and ‘she’s always…Duela’. And I don’t think it’s a coincidence it’s this last line that makes her kiss him. This is the Lion secondary being overjoyed at someone liking Duela for who she is, not who she tries to be. Her fighting style (punches and knives to throats), her way of gathering information being kidnapping and torture and her tendency of giving Turner a reality check whenever he needs it are also evidence that support a Lion secondary. Her idea of a distraction is also hilariously straight-forward: she escapes from the police by pointing out how she’s trying to pick her handcuffs. (Sidenote: Turner and Duela’s ‘not offended’ game, aside from giving us THE most romantic line in the show, it’s also very Lion-coded IMO. There is very little you can say to a Lion secondary that will offend them as long as you are honest and it’s clear your intentions aren’t malicious.)

When trying to figure out Duela’s secondary I realized that she is incredibly healthy for a girl raised in Arkham by a conwoman. Sure, she’s extremely self-serving and would climb over anyone to get what she wants, but she has no regrets about it. It’s a tough world and everyone is in it for themselves. Except Duela is in it for her and her mom. (And she thinks the same must be true for her mom.) She’s a Snake primary who can’t be with Her Person. So she’s a little burnt. She doesn’t let herself get too close to anyone because what’s the point? Everyone leaves you eventually. Jane is the only person that had been there for Duela so she is the only one allowed to be in her inner circle. But than episode two happens and Duela abandons Harper, Cullen, Carrie and Turner to save her own skin. So when the invincible assassin comes after her, Duela is all alone. Except no, because suddenly the others are there and they are saving her life. She tries to clumsily thank Cullen for it, but he points out that if it wasn’t for Turner, they would have left her for dead. This is the switch that puts him on her map and slowly but surely, her Snake latches onto him. “I don’t care about Gotham, I care about Turner.” Duela and Turner’s first conflict in episode 11 is a deeply Loyalist one: she wants him to run away with her and her mom because she only cares about these two people, but Turner’s inner circle has expanded to include the others, so he can’t just leave. And the girl who’s already kinda burnt takes it as a betrayal and leaves without him. But she does come back when she realizes her mom is safe, but Turner is in mortal peril; or tries to. I find it interesting that her reaction to seeing the others imprisoned is to say ‘Even little bird’. And that’s because Carrie is the other person she bonded with. 

Duela heals completely in the last episode when two things happen: Harvey promises to be her dad and commits a great sacrifice for her…and Turner comes to save her despite still being under the impression that she was never gonna come back. Her delighted expression when seeing him says it all. I always thought the Twelfth Doctor’s speech ‘Do You Think I Care for You So Little that Betraying Me Would Make a Difference?’ is every Snake’s dream, especially a burnt Snake’s, and Turner gave her this exact speech with his actions. Duela’s last scene mirrors Turner’s attitude during the whole show.

Harper: Duela, do you even care about the people?

Duela: No. But Turner did. And I cared about him.

She has adopted her loved ones’ morality and is willing to act on it. She’s a healthy Snake now despite all the tragedies that have happened to her.

(I am unsure about this, but I do wonder if Duela might have had a Bird primary model filled with nihilistic beliefs that she gets rid off by the end of the series. It would explain some of her more Idealist-like scenes, like when she is upset Joe Chill -the patron saint of small thieves- was actually set up. Or when she has to be comforted by Turner after saving the lives of kidnapping victims: “Just because you did a good thing doesn’t make you a good person.” The fact that this phrase makes her smile happily was hilarious.)

Harper Row

Harper is another Lion secondary that can’t be anything else but what she is. She’s blunt and forceful and makes her opinion known. She may be a genius but she is no Bird as she has none of the Bird sec traits. Sure she does research when needed, but she doesn’t show any particular inclination towards it outside life and death situations. As proven in the last episode, when she’s in a fight she goes for the biggest weapon. The way she stands up to Stephanie’s mom by throwing the truth in her face is also a very Lion move.

Harper is another Loyalist and for a while I believed she was a Snake with only Cullen as her person. After all, everything she does was and is for him. But she’s actually pretty miserable. Which is why I think she’s actually a Burnt Badger. @wisteria-lodge has this to say about Burnt Badgers: “[the Burnt Badger ]has decided that communities are unsafe, unpractical, and the only way to be safe is to be alone - or to try and be content with a much smaller community than the one they want. For this reason, Burnt badgers tend to look like miserable Snakes.” We sadly don’t get a lot of interiority for Harper (another reason to hate the cancellation), but I think her behavior towards Stephanie and especially Stephanie-Turner when contrasted to Duela’s is telling. Harper and Duela both have a crush on a person that has a very deep relationship with someone else, to the point that one can mistake the relationship as romantic. Which Harper does and starts resenting Stephanie and pushing her away in order to protect herself. She’s too scared to let herself get attached, typical Burnt Badger behavior. Meanwhile Snake Duela is just happy there is someone else prioritizing Turner like she does.

After their names are cleared, Harper says she might enroll in Gotham Academy with Stephanie, which to me shows that she’s looking to build a community.

Cullen Row

Cullen is the only one, alongside Stephanie, that is willing to deviate from their quest of proving their innocence in order to catch an art thief. While Harper refuses to risk her life in order to ‘recover trinkets for the rich’ and Turner says it’s not a priority, Lion primary Cullen has embraced his role as a hero of the city and thinks it would be unethical to not try and catch the thief and recover the stolen art. He’s also the one that wants to clear his name in the pilot because ‘I am the one who chose the damned thing’. If Turner wants to prove his innocence because he doesn’t want to be remembered as his own father’s killer and Duela and Harper don’t want to risk their lives in order to clear their names, Idealist Cullen is the only one who wants to do it because it’s the Right Thing to do. 

I oscillated between Snake and Bird for his secondary, but I went with the former because deception is his go-to method. Need to trade the electrum for Turner but don’t want to give it to the Court? Just create a fake one. (And that scene is such a contrast with Lion sec Duela whose solution is to try and cut the powerful space rock with a run-of-the-mill knife LOL) Need evidence from the police station? Pretend to be a cop. In the pilot, when they knock out the cops chasing them, Cullen is the one that uses their station to keep the other cops from finding them.

Stephanie Brown

Stephanie is a Lion primary who is pretty much being gaslighted by her parents. She knows your mom being so drunk and drugged she can’t even stand at your school function is wrong, just as wrong as your dad using his money and status to supply her addiction just to keep up the picture of the perfect family. Stephanie does everything her parents tell her to, including ‘dating a guy with the right last name’. Except that’s not entirely true. Stephanie rebels in her own quiet way from the pilot when she helps Turner and keeps helping him and his friends after they become fugitives. You can see her Lion primary both loves the rebellion and the fact that she gets to be a hero, to truly do something good. As I pointed out before, aside from Cullen, Stephanie is the only one who believes it’s their duty as heroes to recover stolen art. 

When she lets her father go to prison instead of giving Lincoln her friends’ location, Arthur Brown frames it as a Loyalist conflict: me versus them. But Idealist Stephanie doesn’t see it that way. What she sees is that her father is going to pay for his crimes, while her friends are innocent.

Her secondary was a bit harder, because I think it had been a bit burned by playing the perfect daughter, but I settled on Lion secondary. She and Harper communicate with each other in an easy and blunt way, like Lions do. She also has the Lion tendency of picking a strategy and just sticking with it, no matter how ill advised it might be. In her case it is using her hacker skills despite almost being arrested in the second episode. She’s also incredibly honest (when Brody asks about what she thinks about his dad, Stephanie just repeats that she thinks his mom is nice), uncomfortable with deception and goes after what she wants once her Lion primary has picked a path (see how she kissed Harper both in episode 11 and 13).

Carrie Kelly

Carrie is Bruce Wayne’s student when it comes to vigilantism and his true heir in the show. She is another Lion primary, and a Paragon one at that, just like her mom and her mentor. Like Turner’s and Duela’s, her story is about rising to your parents’ expectations, but in Carrie’s case, she surpasses them! Dr. Kelly is Gotham’s best surgeon who has double shifts at the hospital because this is the right thing to do and her drive has rubbed onto her daughter. So of course Carrie picks up on her mom’s, and later, Bruce’s, desire to save people and protect the city. As such when the opportunity arises she becomes Robin, Batman’s partner. Dr. Kelly is shocked her daughter would become a vigilante, but as Carrie points out she had been raised to do the right thing. This is also why she saves Turner and co in the pilot: she knows they are innocent and as such needs to rescue them. She’s still a young Lion who has quite the idealistic view and we see in the episode ‘More money, more problem’ -where she manages to put a mob boss behind bars only for him to be released by corrupt officials- that Gotham’s harsh reality could easily burn her. Thankfully I think the creation of the Gotham Knights would help prevent this.

As for her secondary, first things first: this girl is not a Lion. She steals the journal pages in episode two and keeps the secret about Batman killing Turner’s parents for the next eight episodes without much effort. She doesn’t have any Bird or Snake traits, which leaves Badger secondary, something that fits her quite well. I would say she is a Bookkeeper Badger, the other side of the coin to Turner’s Courtier Badger. Wisteria says about them: “A Bookkeeper Badger shows up and does the work. They are dependable, they are thorough, they don’t like cutting corners (Badgers consider cutting corners on something that they actually care about immoral.)” This perfectly describes Carrie.

Brody March

Brody doesn’t get that much interiority, so it’s hard to settle on a primary to him. I am oscillating between a heroic Badger or Lion as he turns on his parents when he realizes they are doing terrible things. I am gonna go with Badger primary, mostly for how much it seems like a community is important to him. When he joins the Knights in episode 12 he immediately considers himself one of them: “We would be fine.” There is also the way he seems to have quite the social life at Gotham Academy. This is mostly implied, but from the very first episode, while Turner is positioned as the outsider who will never get over the stigma of being ‘from the slums of Gotham’ and as such never truly belong in the upper class, Brody is the ‘guy with the perfect family name’ as Stephanie puts it. Everything he does is to live up to this family name, but unlike Stephanie, he genuinely wants to do so, it isn’t just pressure from his parents. You can see the first peak of the more heroic Badger when he does volunteer work at the hospital with Carrie and is bothered by the people left to suffer and wants to help them.

Brody and Turner’s pre-show relationship is fascinating and I’m sad it never gets fully explored. It’s clear they were somewhat close to each other, probably mostly because of Stephanie, but they are also clearly rivals in a lot of aspects: when it comes to swordfighting, to Stephanie’s affection and just to social status in general. Being the Bruce Wayne’s son, Turner is somewhat socially above Brody and pretty much all of the other students and you can see it irks them as they certainly feel he doesn’t deserve it. Brody believes Turner is capable of murdering his own father for money for…nine episodes, I think! And unlike most of Gotham, Brody clearly had enough of a rapport with him to have some doubts, but he doesn’t. I think these are the dark tendencies of a Badger to give into prejudice.

As Turner’s foil, Brody is another Badger secondary, but like Carrie -with whom he forms an organic friendship- I think he’s more of a Bookkeeper. While Turner may have been introduced to us in the pilot offering his hand to Brody, Brody is introduced when he accepts said hand, showing his fair play. His reaction when he is in uncomfortable situations (the gala, when he discovers the hidden camera with the recorded evidence) is to ask a friend (aka Stephanie) for help.

TL;DR

Turner Hayes - Snake who picked up Bruce’s morality/Courtier Badger

Duela Doe Dent - somewhat burnt Snake (with maybe a nihilistic Bird model)/Lion with a healthy Snake model

Harper Row - burned Badger/Lion

Cullen - Lion/Snake

Stephanie Brown - Lion/burned Lion

Carrie Kelly - Paragon Lion/Bookkeeper Badger

Brody March - Badger/Bookkeeper Badger

#sortinghatchats #gotham knights #gothaam knights cw #turner hayes #duela doe #duela dent #harper row #cullen row #stephanie brown #carrie kelly #brody march #this took me FOUR hours to make! #this show has given me brainrot #meta #my thoughts

[herlaqueen]

When I see folks discussing possible flaws/issues for the various SHC houses, most of the time the Badger secondary one is "can overwork themselves/focus too much on work" or something like that.

But Courtier Badger has a darker side too. One that by itself is pretty morally neutral, but has the potential to be used to hurt people, hard.

A Badger secondary will help you notice things about people you meet so you can instinctively understand how to become a relatable person for them. It will take note of what they say, how they say it, their body language. It'll notice the unspoken words lingering between sentences, sideways glances, every hesitation.

With a bit of patience, you'll probably have a good idea of what this person likes and hopes, but also what they fear, about themselves and others. It will point out to you the cracks in them.

And this can be a good thing! It can be very helpful to avoid a potentially explosive topic, or when you're trying to comfort a clearly distressed friend that isn't volunteering much information.

But it also makes hurting people so easy, and during a heated discussion, it's tempting to use this hold you have on their fears and emotions to just make it stop, to gain a moral high ground, or just because right now you think they deserve to be hurt.

Sometimes I look at someone I know well enough and realize: "Oh, I could make you have an identity crisis right now by showing you the ugliest version of yourself you'd still be able to recognize as you and using the right words to make you believe just a bit that there's truth in it".

And then I don't do it, of course, but the... casual way my inner thoughts take note of this and file it under "might be useful someday" is a bit scary. And it all comes from the same place that allows me to give the best Chrismas gifts and just know when it's time to check in with a friend and ask how it's going.

Edited to add: of course, I think every person of every sorting has the means to (more or less consciously) gather information about the people they interact with, and then use it for good or for bad. What I mean is that the way it happens, to me, feels tied to how I use my secondary to more generally interact with the world and other people, as well as the way I'd go if I ever had to actually go that far (hopefully never, since it's a bridge-burning level extreme measure).

#sortinghatchats #badger secondary

[tanoraqui]

I was trying to rewrite this encounter from Fëanor’s pov for the longer fic I’m working on, and it’s not really working so I might give up, but please enjoy this bit of Fëanor going about his days blithely not realizing that Maedhros has usurped most of his kingship:

There wasn’t less work to do when Maedhros was away from the fort. Objectively there was more, for there was no one Fëanor trusted so much to review paperwork before passing it to him for signature, or to handle meetings on his behalf, or a hundred other duties which only a crown prince—only a crown prince as excellently competent as Fëanor’s firstborn son!—could be deputized to manage.

But there was undeniably an additional measure of flexibility when Maedhros was absent. A crown prince might badger his father out of the laboratory; petty courtiers either wouldn’t dare or didn’t have the strength of will to keep trying after the third time Fëanor told them to go away; couldn’t they see he was busy? A crown prince might screen would-be petitioners so that only the important or interesting ended up before Fëanor’s seat; with Maedhros away hunting with his youngest brothers, Fëanor took meetings on the military budget (important but dull), saw new proposals for banner designs (none superior to the current banner), and spent exactly one afternoon formally hearing convoluted arguments about a disputed piece of land in southern Ladros before ruling that the cows themselves would own the land for the next fifty years, throwing all parties out of his throne room, and declaring that no more judgements would be passed, unless they be matters of life or death, until the prince returned.

Not that he begrudged Maedhros his respite! Quite the opposite—his son worked tirelessly at his craft of state, which now included war as well. It seemed like every time Fëanor came into his office, there was more correspondence on the desk, whether Maedhros was there or not.

With Maedhros away, Fëanor looked through it himself, of course, save those few that seemed private. Many were from Indis’s… from Maedhros’s cousins, and Fingolfin and Lalwen, because one of the greatest favors Maedhros had done his father was to take point on managing them. Fëanor skimmed several letters to be sure none of them were taking advantage of the generous heart behind his son’s sharp judgement…

Turgon was complaining about ‘unjust’ taxes on pearls, an ongoing argument. Finrod offered thanks for a royal edict Maedhros had managed entirely on his own regarding new discoveries about optimal farming strategies. Fingon suggested another joint military exercise next year between Lothlann’s cavalry and soldiers of Dorthonion. Of course he did! But all were adequately deferential, if familiar—as was best, of course. Neither treason nor fear of treason had any place here! The House of Finwë was united in might and purpose!

Fëanor returned to his laboratory for a few hours, then sent a courier off with new formulae to the larger experimental compound in Tumladen, where the test explosions might go unnoticed by all but the Eagles. He would get through the enemy’s mountains one day.

#feanor #maedhros #the silmarillion #ficlet #my fic #feanor and feanor’s kin

[writing-whump]

Character meta - Sortinghatschats

Based on the sortinghatschats system that describes the why and the how of characters and is the best personality system I know. For more info check out @wisteria-lodge and @sortinghatchats

Isaiah

Isaiah Wolfson is a bird primary. No other primary is this good in designing a completely new personality to go with a new system and this is exactly what Isaiah did, when he left his family at 18. He was eager too follow his father's system, his pack's system, until he witnessed it falling down. He saw the worst from his father, the double face, the masks, the paranoia and control, the abuse. Isaiah saw him at his lowest and he covered for him, cause he didn't want his brothers to know.

This brought him an existential crisis though. Cause obviously his father's system was flawed and so was his. Leaving gave him space to find himself, or rather, to completely rebuild himself. He gathered information. Studied psychology to learn more about the human psyche, to understand his own issues, his own confusion. And then it built into fascination. He got new role models, new work, new thoughts and figured out new codes for himself to live by. To be someone he can be proud of.

This new system led him to really embrace his badger secondary. Very untypical for a wolves, who like to posture, who need to have clear power ranks before they are capable of functioning in one room with others, who have their insistent shadows reflecting their deepest desires, raw, ruthless and always, no matter the rationality of it.

But Isaiah's method is caretaking. He bonds with people, offers help, considers their needs, remembers names. He bonds and community builds, throwing himself at young wolves, problematic cases. Seeing a person, he can't help but be kind and considerate. This is something he can only afford because of how insanely powerful and well-trained his shadow is. He gets respect for his power and skill - and that's how he gets away with acting out for character. Being polite, nice and kind, because he wants to. Because he can put people in place if they take it as a weakness.

His emphasis on politeness and good manners, on being gallant and well-dressed, orderly and systematic are all expressions of his smooth courtier badger wanting to be respectful and pleasant to people. And it works, cause man, this guy has contacts. He knows someone, who knows someone, who will help out. He doesn't live in packs or whole communities, he doesn't need it, but when he starts calling in for favours, the city bend itself over for him to fulfill his wish.

It's ironic Isaiah got to deal with an abusive exploded lion badger (his goal of keeping the pack strong is everything and he is willing to sacrifice everyone for it with a very sly badger secondary including the general opinion in his favour) for a father and a glory hound lion for a brother, only to meet and fall for Seline. Seline Silverstein, a proud loud lion primary.

There is steady certainty in how she trusts her instincts, her gut decisions and feelings. She doesn't do anything she absolutely doesn't want to do, following her dream as a cultural studies student and researcher at the university. She believes in being responsible for your own happiness, she has a clear goal and purpose and follows it.

Her outspoken morals, her inability to be silent, the need to provoke and challenge people when something doesn't feel right get her into trouble frequently. True to her primary she is very willing to go against the flow, her friends, people around her. Society won't pressure her away from what she feels is right and she backs it up with research. And she isn't loyal to people or sides either, she follows thoughts. Idealist to the core.

So when the family situation with her brother being a spoiled little brat as a wolf and using his puberty and wolf shadow as excuses made the situation unbearable, she didn't have qualms to move out. She isn't sorry to not belong in any witch coven or wolf pack, if they can't lower their pressure of her being a nice, soothing little witch. The classic role would be a very gentle, caring, tolerant female to calm the wolf tempers in the pack. Thanks, but no thanks. And even though this provokes and irritates the wolf society around her, she values her independence and he beliefs too much to back out.

The lion sometimes gets covered by a very strong and passionate bird secondary though. Seline researches, plans, strategizes and analyses. She is a prepper for all kinds of situations. The tendency to prepare is too much at times, the way she researchers every new skill, verifies information, reads herself into discourses before getting onto something.

Very fitting little bird secondary for her research work. A lion goal and determination followed by a meticulously prepared bird? She is a force to be reconed with, no matter her gentle sweet appearance.

Now as for the pairing, Seline is very attracted to Isaiah's thought out intellectual bird thinking. Isaiah has everything reasoned out, overexplains his tiniest beliefs and habits and Seline digs that stuff. She just loves to reason and think and she likes to back her feelings with clear evidence and eloquent thoughts and loads of reseach, true to her bird secondary. Bird Isaiah is an ideal intellectual sparring partner for her.

Matthew Blackwell has a very straightforward snake lion sorting. The lion secondary is very loud and direct, goes with his tough guy persona and angry wolf image. He has his temper issues and a very blood knight kind of passion for fighting. It's just fun for him, like a sport or a game. Getting into boxing and running really helped him find a good outlet for it instead of just causing him trouble.

The snake is more subdued and living in a rather neutral zone. Matthew didn't have people in his corner for a long time, and with no snake circle he relief on his agressive lion instead. Finding Isaiah, befriending Seline, getting a sort of maybe pack with them was a key moment for him. Now his snake is adopting people and though he is sometimes awkward in caring for them as well as he would like out of sheer inexperience, he is getting there. Maybe even on the way to built a useful badger secondary model for the caretaking required around his people who are strong and yet havr vulnerbilitied he can cover for.

And Matthew is a sweet marshmallow inside who will put his people above everything. He is the only loyalist in the trio, with Isaiah and Seline being idealists. As long as he fits Seline's felt goals and Isaiah's built system of how the world works, it's a stable combination.

Hector Wolfson is a double lion. Very intense sorting. His lion primary has a very Badger like flavour, influence of how he had been brought up in the pack. Duty, greater good of the whole, community. He accepts and tries to follow this, but inside he is a loud glory hound lion in it for himself, for acknowledgement of his strength, his leadership, him being the best.

Hector struggled with the idea that as the second oldest brother Isaiah had a stronger claim to succeed their father for the leadership of the pack than him. Not to mention that catching up to Isaiah was difficult on its own, but Hector never stopped trying. He worked his butt off in training, control, education. For how arrogant, ambitious and self-centered he is, there is lots of hard work, skill and determination to back him up. Lion willpower, let me tell you.

Hector never recovered from Isaiah abandoning what he considered his greatest goal and honour. Isaiah basically spit on what had been unfairly handed to him by leaving the pack instead of leading it. Hector should be happy about this, now he will most likely be the successor. Except Isaiah's reasoning doesn't make sense and Hector now never got to defeat him in a fair fight. He will never be able to prove he was better and more suited, when Isaiah doesn't consider his life long goal worth the fight. It angers him to no end.

Add to this the lion secondary that likes to power through, kick down doors, burn down bridges and say everything directly...not effective in schemer politics of the wolves, but very much so in getting respect and recognition for power and posturing alone. Wolves respect him. Not to mention his double lion has a very inspiring leadership quality to it. Lions are intense, loud and easy to make people follow them.

At the same time his lion secondary isn't destructive or aggressive to the point he couldn't fulfill his obligations. At civilised wolf parties and strategic meetings, Hector can keep his cool and insult people in a very polite measured manner no one can dispute. He cuts the pleasantries and talks around it short and gets things moving. No-one said lions couldn't be polite. They are just very direct and no nonsense about it.

By the way, his second in the pack, Delaney, shares the double lion sorting. Idealistic, goal-oriented, steady in her determination and very on par with Hector's direct approach.

The Wolfson trio (Hector has brown eyes though) is rounded up by a double snake youngest brother. Arnold "Arnie" Wolfson really got an unfortunate hand. A human brother in the family, he wasn't interesting for his father's ambitions and was left out of lot of the wolf pack business and power struggles.

Arnie has that air of shameless self-worth and self-interest of a young snake though. He likes fun, joy and the pretty things in life. He is here to enjoy himself. And he doesn't care about politics. The most he cares about other than himself is his tiny circle. The pack doesn't matter to him as a whole, he doesn't feel obliged to it. Isaiah and Hector are his people, and he wants them back and nice to each other. That's it. Where Hector can't forgive Isaiah for betraying their common goal and can't move past this to try to understand or figure out his mysteries, Arnie just longs to get back to his brother and reconcile. Isaiah can betray them or leave them or do incomprehensible stuff for wolf standards, but he is Arnie's person so he will be forgiven and given the benefit of the doubt. Arnie, in contrast to Hector, wants to understand, wants to find out, wants to get along.

His secondary is a playful snake. Arnie likes to tease, lie, push and change strategies in the middle if they don't work. Silver-tounged with mischief in his eyes, he enjoys the freedom of his humanity. He might not matter for the wolves, but he knows them and their etiquette enough to play at whatever situation to turn it in his favour. While wolves are busy figuring out ranks and fighting off their shadows, he will design the positions and talks to support his agenda. Quick on his feet and sneaky and very much enjoys it. Sonny Carter is a double snake as well - it's just very handy for charming behind the scene schemers.

Isaiah - Bird/Badger

Seline - Lion/Bird

Matthew - Snake/Lion with a Badger model on the way

Hector - Lion/Lion

Arnie - Snake/Snake

Delaney - Lion/Lion

Sonny - Snake/Snake

Caleb - Lion/Snake

Mr Wolfson - exploded Lion/Badger

#sortinghatschats #character meta #oc development #my ocs #werewolf story #meta #myocs

[thelongestway]

Sorting FFXIV: Hythlodaeus (Snake Primary/Badger Secondary)

The Ancients' sortings have been rotating in my head for a while now, and so I'd like to start with my favorite: Hythlodaeus, who I've sorted as a Snake/Badger. Naturally, lots of Endwalker spoilers follow!

Primary: In a universe where many of the grand movers and shakers - the ones who create, but also the ones who fuck up so spectacularly that the universe reels for eons - are Idealists, Hythlodaeus is a quiet Snake, whose catch phrase, appropriately, is "at least I'm not entirely useless!"

To put it in context, this quote is coming from the man who, while being a fairly weak mage, is nonetheless the single best soulseer of his generation (exactly what it sounds like - he has the best aetherial sight), AND has responsibility for approving the creation of new blueprints for literally everything on the planet, from regular engineering to bioengineering.

...Who manages, at the same time, to have the reputation of someone who is not at all flashy, slightly inept, just a tad boring and wholly unexceptional. It's his friends who are the incredible ones, he's just along for the ride!..

...and to smooth things over, and to take care of those he cares for, and to watch and enjoy the world he has had so much of a hand in creating.

And then, when their time in the world is done, Hythlodaeus explicitly wants to leave the stage together with his closest friends - in a society where the socially acceptable way to die is to finish your work and make a conscious choice of descending into the Underworld, Hythlodaeus' fantasy is to help his friends achieve their goals and head off together with them, hand in hand.

That is a Snake Primary if I've ever seen one. Hythlodaeus is one of those Snakepris who - possibly because of the inherent conflict with his Secondary - does feel a little guilty about it, even as he has carefully maneuvered to be exactly where he prefers: in the background, providing support and vision. But sometimes his Badger Secondary just... Itches.

Secondary: Hythlodaeus is a Courtier Badger par excellence. In his friend group of powerful maverick mages with varying degrees of social competence, he is the glue that keeps them together and the soft unseen hand which defuses situations or subtly pushes them in the right direction. His powers of perception are uncanny and would be slightly terrifying - if not for the fact that Hythlodaeus cultivates an easygoing, even lax, persona, and usually manages to dispel any suspicions before they form in full.

Hyth is also extremely interesting in that he is explicitly the rare Courtier Badger Secondary who cultivates a reputation for having Zero Bookkeeper Skills - and, even rarer, through him we are shown a Courtier Badger/Bookkeeper Badger conflict!

Even though Hythlodaeus has a position of high responsibility, he is well-known for being an extraordinarily... Informal and carefree boss. The popular opinion is that this is situation exists because his second-in-command was the one picking up the slack:

But, funnily enough, we also get the same relationship (among other extremely Snake/Badger things! Go read the story if you like the type!) from Hythlodaeus' perspective... And it is a very peeved Courtier Badger going "yeah, you still don't understand what is actually important, do you? And how things are done around here? Sigh. Well, you can't outmaneuver me, anyway" to his Bookkeeper colleague.

His course decided, Hythlodaeus departed the bureau, taking only the briefest of moments to mention his plans to the senior secretary. While the industrious soul was accustomed to his superior's carefree nature, he nevertheless attempted to detain him, only to be defeated by the tried and trusted tactic of politely nodding and pretending not to hear.

[...]

"Truly, our proclivities are known to one and all." Elidibus and Mitron were no exception─indeed, when Azem or Emet-Selch visited the Bureau of the Architect, the staff usually refrained from asking their business and led them straight to Hythlodaeus. Only the redoubtable senior secretary and those not long in employment followed protocol to the letter."

And, finally, and perhaps crucially to the Snake/Badger combination, when Hythlodaeus' expansive Badger Secondary tells him that "yeah, we're ALL GOING TO DIE" - then he has zero qualms about sacrificing himself to let others live. But it is not an Idealist, nor even a Badger sacrifice, even as he lets his Secondary do the social dancing around it.

"Hythlodaeus, please." Emet-Selch had found him─after some effort, judging from his breathless, disheveled state. "You mustn't... With your wisdom and skill, surely you could do more for our people if you remained..."

"I was wise enough to recruit others who surpass me in every respect. Enough will survive me to ensure our work can continue."

Note the sneaky reference to Byregot here! Hythlodaeus' annoyance with his second-in-command aside, he has actually picked him for his Bookkeeper qualities! So that he can continue to do the important part of Hyth's work! That "I Do Not Pick My People Lightly, and He Will Get The Job Done" is, possibly, the epitome of Snake/Badger.

Bonus: watching a Snake/Badger run Absolute Circles socially around a Badger/Bird, who made a grand plan to save the world... And got absolutely blindsided by his Snake friend, someone who had never been one for self-sacrifice, going "right, so if someone needs to die, it might as well be me :)

And his reasoning in choosing to die for a cause is a fascinating look into when a Loyalist primary does this:

It hadn't been a concern voiced on behalf of the Amaurotines. Better to pretend otherwise, though.

To forestall the Final Days, the will of the star would be given shape and form. An offering of life unprecedented in scale would be required. The Convocation themselves had called for willing participants, and so Emet-Selch was in no position to deny any the right to volunteer. He could but dance around the unspeakable request and clench his fists in frustration when refused.

Hythlodaeus was not a fighter. It was the pragmatic choice to sacrifice himself. To be reduced to aether and serve as fuel for the great summoning─Hythlodaeus did not fear this. He understood death, and the terror which had come to grip many when it drew near, but that understanding only emboldened him to embrace it. Once, he would have died to perpetuate the cycle. Now, he would die to preserve a myriad lives that might yet be saved.

The Snake/Badger says: I am a very small creature. But even a small creature can make a difference in numbers. I don't get to end my life together with my friends, and that's sad. But if they get to live - and others, too, which is nice - I have zero regrets.

#hythlodaeus #shc #snake primary #badger secondary #ffxiv #endwalker spoilers #endwalker #sortinghatchats #sorting ffxiv

[sevilemar]

Hi Sevi, anon ranting about media here. I swear I didn't forget or left it on read, I was taking some time to process your words. (This one's long)

First of all, thank you for responding and having this place in the Internet. I really hope it's fun to you and it didn't become something you think you should do, cause that would suck all the fun out of it.

I agree, first season of Witcher is pretty awesome, second season meh, but I still don't get where all of the hate was coming. My problem was them overvaluing Ciri, but oh well.

I like your idea about big thinkers and concrete thinkers. It puts more emphasis on pattern of thought then on how it's result looks like. I also like the change of words as someone who more or less doesn't see myself as having actual ideals, outside of maybe 'boundaries' and 'personal freedom'. But then again I think I would get stuck, as I don't care about affecting the most people, doing the most good etc. I would still vibe with the concrete thinker, what's the most important is in front of you, and how you understand the world sets a system to your actions, what you want to do and what type of person do you want to be. But that might be just me. Maybe I don't believe in affecting the most people and settled down on a few near me, who knows.

I can imagine doing almost everything for my two siblings, I think if I have my people, it's them. I don't even like to think about them doing something really deeply against my core values, I'd better do that myself in their place than watch them do it and then have to figure it out. But what does this fantasy reeking thought have to do with real life and searching for your own place? Not much, huh. What does it matter if I love my cat but don't have the funds to bring him to the vet? Nothing. And you're right about burnt lion secondary, although I'm sometimes wondering about burnt courtier badger as well. It doesn't matter what you value if you have no power to do anything about it.

My mother isn't in my circles, and it brings me a lot of pain to say it, but there's just a number of times you can hurt someone and pretend you are right and you don't see pain. Also, family should be a safe place to discus all kinds of ideas without judgment and fear. Naive, I know.

Why do you think discussing/ defending big picture things against your loved ones and family is used as a tell tale sign for idealists? I know that it's a common idea, but why exactly? To me it was just what people do, we can still disagree and defend our people against the world if needed. It doesn't mean I don't value them or value thoughts more, or that I don't care if I hurt them, but I want them at least to listen, to acknowledge the different side. Sure, it's about validation of my opinions as well. I had to listen to the world constantly telling me how stupid I am, was I the only one and nobody else got to listen to it? No, of course not, it's also emotional as well.

"Roaring truths into a void" such a pretty expression. Can I turn it around and say I'm the void now, and the world is roaring, it sure feels like that sometimes.

Sevi, thank you again for your time and I freaking hope that you find this nonsense interesting. If not, fork this. Have a nice week!

Hi nonny, sorry for leaving your answer for this long. Life happened, as it is wont to do, and I wasn't in the mood for shc.

It's weird for me as well to think about having ideals; I think of them more as behavioural guidelines to make my life easier. Things like 'leave a person or a space the same way you found them or better', or 'be polite/kind when you can', or things like that. It's practical advice to live a more positive life, tested in 30+ years of living, not something that's born out of a need to do good to others. And it's just for me, other people can do what they want. I wouldn't call these things ideals, not really.

I don't think it's helpful to put the standard definitions of ideals/idealist on the shc definitions, because that way, confusion lies. Here are Inky and Cat's defintions again, because I have also forgotten them over the years:

Idealists focus on concepts and truths and what is right and what is good. They are big picture thinkers and have moral drives that closest to what we think of when we think of typical moral drives: this is right because the most people benefit, this is wrong because people get hurt, this is gray so we have to look at the specifics. There is a system of rights and wrongs and in betweens and those things all matter. 

Loyalists care about people. Whether it’s a few people or a whole world of people, at the center of their moral system is to do what is best for those people.

The words they choose for the categories are confusing, and so is the false either/or thinking it often creates. I feel it's easier to think of it as having a different natural focus, hence big picture/concrete. Because big picture people also care very deeply about the people in front of them; they just naturally focus on the big picture to help. And concrete thinkers also see the benefits of big picture help, they just naturally focus on the people right in front of them first.

As for arguing about big picture or idealistic ideas with loved ones, I never felt the need. Why argue when you can learn instead? I know they're good people, so whatever they have thought a lot about and decided to believe in can't be too horribly wrong.

People who are wrong, who hold beliefs that are harmful to me or mine, they will sooner or later be a dick to us anyway, and that's my cue to avoid them. I do not feel the need to convince strangers of anything, and if it happens with my people, I will try if it's important enough, or just agree to disagree if it's not, and avoid the topic in the future. If they hurt me or mine because of it, I will downgrade them, or cast them out if I have to.

Another reason why I do not feel the need to argue about bigger picture things is that I more often than not genuinely don't see how my actions, or those of other people, affect bigger picture ideas/discourse/etc. That's probably just a me thing, but I simply do not see the world from that perspective.

I did not realise that 'leave a person the same or better than you found them and be kind when you can' could make the world a better place if everyone did it. It took a lion friend to point that out. Or how me ranting about my own asexual frustration with romance in media is just one side of a much bigger discourse about who is 'allowed' to even have a sexuality in media. It took a bird friend to show me.

I don't know if that's just me, nonny. But maybe, if you find yourself arguing about big picture things with your family often, then maybe either them, or you, or both have at least some idealist vibes going on. Especially if arguing about it hurts you as much as I think it might, based on your words. Because I know from experience that big picture people can only tolerate so many differences in the really important things. I think it's because disagreeing on these fundamental levels hurts them personally, at the core of who they are.

But then, being forced to argue about things a lot, and feeling like the other people do not even listen to you, would hurt anyone. It's one of the basic ways human beings show respect and appreciation, after all.

That does not mean that you cannot defend them against the world, or value them as a person. Believing in defending your family, no matter how imperfect, is definitely something a lot of people value, idealists and loyalists alike. And you definitely have a snake's exception for your siblings, which I think is incredibly cute, btw.

You're also right, family should be a place where people listen to each other, and where it's safe to try out new ideas if that's a thing you're interested in. But it's often not with the blood family you find this, but rather with a found one.

#sortinghatchats #ask answers #snake primary

[wisteria-lodge]

lion primary (badger morality) + badger secondary (un-Burning) (bird model)

I really liked your sort me submission wish list so if it's okay I'm going to submit my answers! When I was a kid I resolved a bullying incident by pretending to not notice I was being teased. I would be silly/make jokes to cheer up friends who were sad. If teachers picked on my friends, I'd be the mouthy rude one (and they'd kick me out of class). I knew all the material so they'd make me tutor other kids, I'd come up with jokes/mnemonics to help them remember the material. 

Okay, I've definitely got some hints here. First thing is we've got some loyalist-sounding motivations, and a lot of collective nouns "friends" "my friends" "other kids." We've got you protecting the community - from bully teachers, from bad grades, from being sad. It's more Badger primary (Snake primary would be more laser-focused on a couple of people, although it's still possible that you have a really *expansive* Snake primary.)

As for problem solving strategies... you like that multi-player for sure. You're probably a prep-work secondary (or model one) constructing mnemonics like that. I could see Courtier Badger, I could see Actor Bird. Need more data.

One time I ended up causing two people to get into a nasty fight. So I went to each of them separately and engaged them in conversation with stuff they were concerned about, and then once their mood had softened I said you know I think the other person feels bad about what happened but is embarrassed to apologize. And then they made up!

Now that sounds super Courtier Badger.

When I played D&D (something I don't do that much) my weakness is that I have a strong tendency to munchkin, I will look up optimal skill point allocation

*Definitely* prep-work secondary.

and then have to zipper my lips about teammates allocating skill points blindly and ending up being less combat effective.

Because you do in fact want to *help the group.* That's a fairly consistent though-line, and heck - we know that Badger primaries often run the risk of going authoritarian (which you seem to know... enough to actively combat.)

I enjoy coming up with somewhat more silly improv stuff, in D&D it feels more fun to solve things sideways than straight on.

Because you know the *real* way to help the group at a D&D table is contribute too and boost the overall mood.

I tried doing some interview prep for job interviews, but it was boring/too much/I ran out of time. I just went in being confident that I know my stuff, that they'd be lucky to have me, that as long as I can explain my thinking process it would be fine. And indeed it was fine and I got several offers.

This also feels Badger secondary in that 'build-yourself-into-the-correct-tool-for-the-job' + 'let go' sort of way.'

At work I generally speaking struggle with pre-planning. It's much, much easier for me to do rough draft working concept followed by many refinements in later stages -

The way you've phrased this sounds Badger secondary. I can't really picture a Bird saying "I struggle with pre-planning" - Birds LOVE pre planning, they love understanding every piece of the puzzle individually, and then just snapping everything in place. It's very Badger to say 'I'm doing to start with something, and then improve it in tiny increments, over time."

I'm very good at seeing how to make things refined later, once I've actually gotten my hands dirty and have a good overall vision of the problem (very hard for me to do in advance). (People also used to ask me to edit their papers - line edits are boring but I'm very good at structural edits).

Structural edits are *fun*

(this ask was originally structured in an ask/answer format, as per my wish list. And I reformatted it into what I thought would be the best order. It was great.)

I don't know exactly why I attribute "Loving Structural Edits" to Badger secondary. But I do know that the Bird secondaries I know are brilliant at line edits, better than me, but don't enjoy turning a whole work around in their heads the way I do.

When I have a difficult decision to make I do too much research, talk to too many people, agonize endlessly. Finally snap and choose something. Leaving things up in the air exacerbates my anxiety so I'll reach for a conclusion just to make that tension go away. I've also found it helpful to reduce the scope of the question as much as possible - I don't need to decide a ten year plan, I can focus on deciding a one year plan. 

Good problem solving solutions. I would normally attribute "do too much research" - especially with an adjective like "agonize" to a Bird secondary model that you're a little conflicted about, and "talk to too many people" as a Badger secondary model that you're kind of conflicted about. Unless that's angst that's coming more from your primary? Like "talking to too many people" = "trying to please all my different communities [when that isn't actually possible.]"

To whatever extent I can keep my options open, I'll do that also. This is how I ended up doing essentially four degrees at once - to avoid having to commit to any of them in advance. And then I was able to choose based on which one had work I enjoyed best.

That is a... very Badger secondary solution. "I know! I'll just do a TON of work, and then decide which KIND of work I like doing best."

And I had you pegged for a Badger primary... but I'm starting to get more Internal primary energy. There's a conflict between what the community wants and what you want, and the way you choose is really going inward, and seeing how you feel about things. Feeling good about making a snap decision - any decision - is a Lion primary thing, *feeling* out your ideal major is Lion primary, and getting stressed out by talking to too many people is also Lion Primary.

But often it's a lot of vacillating until I'm sort of pushed into it. The decision to quit my job, I tentatively mentioned being open to job offers, immediately got several, realized I was excited about the newness of it all, and had to basically bite the bullet and tell my boss (quickly, because having it hanging over my head as this unspoken thing between us was killing me). The decision to move in with my partner was basically me agonizing about it (including in therapy) up until and including moving day and then once I'd actually moved just being totally fine with it. 

I'm actually going more Lion primary for you. Like, a Lion primary that *feels* Badger and *has* Badger morality a lot of the time. But when it really comes down to it, you make decisions based on what feels right, and all the other considerations come in second and third.

My fantasy would be to have the money and free time and lack of obligations to travel the world. Not just one day tourist blitzes, I want to do month-long stays and volunteer locally. I want to get to know people in depth, do interviews, and just experience new places and sensations and experiences, and the common underlying themes of humanity. I have done one or two travels abroad but I want so much more, and ideally, again, paired with a human element-- a personal relationship with a tour guide, hearing history from someone affected by it... And also seeing a fuckton of beautiful nature and eating so many types of fruit that aren't sold globally and you can only eat locally. That and setting up a giant seven story library for people to borrow physical copies of books.

I'm absolutely fascinated by this fantasy, because on one hand, it is ABSOLUTELY group focused. You like groups, you're interested in groups, you want to be in and around groups. But... you're talking about lots of different groups. Travel to new places, meet new people. Have people come to your library wizard-tower, but then leave. You love being part of communities, but in your fantasy *you* remain solo, free, independent. And that is absolutely a Lion primary fantasy.

It makes me fell powerful when someone comes to me with a problem and walks away with a solution.

The "wizard in their tower" fantasy.

Occasionally, I will take inspiration from a character in a "what would X do", if X deals with problems with dignity, poise, compassion, self-respect, and confidence.

Usually this is an Actor Bird thing. Maybe you model it? (especially with that qualifier "occasionally.")

The most difficult time in my life was a period of clinical depression, so I had to just force myself through every single day. Exercise, good for depression, so I'd have to fucking drag myself off to do some. Therapy, thing you're supposed to do, so I'd drag myself to that also. Just trying to get through the motions of being a functional human being day after day after day after day and looking into a future where every single day was just going to be that endlessly exhausting grey grind, forever. And I knew the whole thing was in my head, that my life was actually fine except for the part where everything *felt* miserable and I couldn't remember what happiness felt like, and that part drove me nuts.

Brutal. Just Burnt secondary (everything is a chore, a grind.) I'm glad you made it out.

My therapist kept telling me I had to accept my feelings and I kept arguing with her that the entire problem was that my feelings were, demonstrably, bullshit. Just totally disconnected from reality. Anyway I spent years avoiding medication because I was too scared and also thought my problems weren't real enough and that I wasn't trying hard enough with all the exercise and the therapy,

That Badger secondary curse "I could just work harder." Yeah. Also, if you're a Lion primary... obviously you were clinically depressed, but in the terms of this system, this is a description of burning. Burning though a chemical imbalance, but - you need your feeling, but you don't have your feelings. Very possibly you did the Burnt Lion thing and tried your best to model something else (likely Badger primary.)

but eventually things got bad enough I tried it, and I was very lucky and it was a magical pill that literally made all my problems go away (unless I forget to take it) which made me feel very vindicated that I was right and the therapist was wrong, the problem WAS that my feelings were broken and once they were fixed everything was better again.

I am so, so, so happy for you. And I am doubling down on Lion primary, because I don't think another primary would have described this process in quite this way: 'my feelings got fixed.'

I'm very different from my mother, but I adore and respect her. She's very patient, very compassionate, very wise, very logical and very grounded. As i got older I realized how much my value system was just absorbed from her.

Ah, that makes sense why you read as so Badger primary. Your mom sounds like either a Double Badger, or a Badger Bird.

My dad is more similar to me (more creative, more emotional, more sentimental) and our relationship is more tumultuous - sometimes close, sometimes it's too much, I don't have patience for him always.

... and I'd bet that your dad is a Lion primary, like you. That's a pretty good description of the type of relationship two intense Lions tend to have.

I adore my partner. I feel lucky every day for them. They are a significantly better person than me, so I just try to keep up as best I can and remember to not be too selfish and make space for them to have their needs and wants addressed, because for me that's a conscious effort whereas for them, addressing my needs and wants is kind of automatic. Also they're the kind of person to have a savior complex where if someone needs help they can't say no,

Your partner is a REALLY loud Badger primary.

and I'm the kind of person to say "no, fuck that", and I sort of have to balance giving them free reign to follow their nice impulses vs setting boundaries over what we can reasonably handle.

I hope you know how important that is, and how important you are to your partner's well being. Expansive Badger primaries really, really struggle with "fuck that" and "sounds like a Them Problem." Healthy Lion primaries bring that energy.

Thank you very much! Super curious to hear the conclusion.

You're a Lion primary who *loves* Badgers, and is surrounded by some very loud ones. So most of the time, you probably look Badger yourself. But when it really comes down to a big decision, it really is all about how you feel about it - and that's not selfish, that's necessary and strong. You're a Badger secondary, who occasionally models Bird, and who had a period when they burnt their secondary pretty badly, which made the Badger problem solving that you usually like feel anxious and agonizing. But luckily, you're doing well now.

#submission #lion badger #lion primary #paragon lion #badger seconary #courtier badger #cw depression #sortme #wisteria sorts #sortinghatchats #shc

[reds-burrow]

You use courtier badger right? What does it feel like when you go into neutral mode? (if you go neutral)

It doesn't feel like anything. That's the thing: it's all subconscious. It doesn't feel like peeling back any layers or shifting gears because I'm not. I sometimes will look back on a conversation after it's finished and realize I stopped mirroring halfway through. Otherwise, the only way I notice the change in the moment is when someone else notices and says something to me. Usually, they're asking if I'm okay because I generally fall into neutral when I'm too tired to match someone's energy. Or occasionally it's when I'm too angry (but I could count those incidents on one hand).

#sortinghatchats #ask response #courtier badger #badger secondary

[starry-sky-stuff]

Sorting My OCs

Now that In Want of a Wife is finished, here is my official sortings of my ocs. For an explanation of the sorting system check out @wisteria-lodge

Cecily’s entire journey is about growing into her Lion Secondary. She lives in a society where women are expected to be demure and obedient, and has been taught by her mother (herself a burned Lion Secondary) that her secondary is something to be suppressed and that she should put on a Badger Secondary performance. Her character arc is centred on her growing more confident in her Lion Secondary, becoming more outspoken and bold, going after what she wants and standing up to her mother. I tossed up between Bird and Lion for her primary, and either could work, but as @missbrunettebarbie pointed out to me, Cecily has more in common with Bird/Lion heroines then Double Lion heroines. She lacks the certainty and gut instinct of a Lion Primary, and is more prone to self-doubt and questioning her beliefs.

The suave, charming Laurence looks like a Snake Secondary at first, and he certainly has a model, but at heart Laurence is a caretaker. He woos Cecily with thoughtful gifts that show how much attention he’s paid to her interests and wishes. He’s more of a Courtier Badger than a Bookkeeper, very skilled in social situations and putting others at ease, and his courtship of Cecily is very considerate and thought-out in a slow and steady wins the race kind of way. He’s committed to showing her he’s changed and does that with consistent big and small gestures. As for his primary, he’s definitely a Snake. He outright states that family legacy and tradition mean nothing to him, and that all he cares about is looking after his set of people and making them happy.

Cecily Montgomery: Bird/Lion, Badger Secondary performance

Laurence Fairchild: Snake/Badger, Snake Secondary model

#most of the other characters either aren’t developed enough to sort #or will be sorted once I’ve written their stories #Cecily’s mother is probably a Bird/Lion like her daughter #but super burnt and disillusioned #stuck in the idea of how the world works #sortinghatchats #sorting hat chats #my wips: in want of a wife #oc: cecily montgomery #oc: laurence fairchild

[somehwere-between]

(referral) What being a Courtier Badger looks / feels like ? I’m trying to model it in order to improve the way I deal with social situations (yay autism) but I have no idea on how to do it.

Well hey- I’m autistic too! Albeit I don’t know if I personally am a Courtier Badger myself (anyone got some insight on that?), but I’ll try to answer this as best I can.

Here’s Wisteria’s definition:

Courtier Badgers go in a more interpersonal direction. They find a group, and try to supply what the group needs (or even just this one person needs) in an... emotional sense. Badgers are social mirrors who reflect you back to yourself, and so come off as extremely legit and trustworthy. And, unlike a Snake secondary, this isn’t a persona that they wear. They actually shapeshift to match you. 

Biggest thing here: “…unlike a Snake secondary, this isn’t a persona that they wear. They actually shapeshift to match you.” Now with being autistic, I don’t know how this would really operate, but your statement of “I’m trying to model it but don’t know how” definitely seems like you’re not a Courtier badger and just trying to mimic it. Anon, have you considered that you might have a snake model?

Assuming that you don’t have a snake model and you are a Courtier Badger, just struggling with social interactions, here’s some things that I think might help:

Asking people what they need or want. I personally know I’m really good at history and English, so I offer my help in those subjects. Sometimes people don’t take it, but that’s okay. It’s worth asking anyway.

Notice the “color” or “shape” of the person you’re talking to, and if you naturally mimic them. Weird verbiage, I know, but what I mean is to notice the patterns in pre-existing communities and see if they bleed into your own social presentations. For me, the ‘red’ of my cousin bleeds into my usually ‘indigo’ vibe, in order to meet whatever need she has and then leave. I don’t make myself ‘red’, that’s just what happens.

Don’t force things. Now that’s easier said than done, trust me, but don’t make yourself into a mirror if you are not. There’s nothing wrong with not being a mirror!

Question to ask yourself: Is it a performance, or a molding?

Now based on what little I have on you, anon, I think you might have a snake model rather than being a Courtier Badger, however 2 sentences really isn’t much to go off of. Please— any Courtier Badgers out there, do you have more insight on this? As an autistic person myself, CBs are hard to explain because it’s just more “felt” than anything.

-bird|badger

#sortinghatchats #shc community #badger secondary #courtier badger

[nicadilly]

@pieniharmaakani SOUP POSTING

personal hc, volta goes into honey badger/wolverine mode if you touch her food, no fear.

#how to hold spoon #idk #the arcana #arcana #the courtiers #courtiers #pontifex vulgora #procurator volta #quaestor valdemar #volta #vulgora #valdemar #soup badger #shitposting #my wife volta

[herlaqueen]

Posting this in case someone struggling with their sorting finds it useful.

My courtier/social/multiplayer badger secondary feels extremely natural and what I instinctively do is kinda like using a kaleidoscope: the many bits that make me "me" stay the same, but by shifting them a bit the whole picture changes a lot for the person looking at it, and also a lot of what this person sees is born from the interaction between the shapes and this person's interpretation of them.

I feel a lot of any social interactions as almost physically existing in the space between me and the other people involved, it's not something I can actively push in one direction but feels more like something "organic" and always growing and changing, like a stream. I can influence its course a bit by showing more or less of a specific side of myself, but one thing has to naturally flow into another.

Of course, I am perfectly capable of doing or saying something in a very deliberate way in order to get a specific reaction, but it always feels forced and out of tune, and when doing it I get afraid that the other person will see what I'm doing and that I'm trying to manipulate them and call me out (even when it's something done well and in an unobtrusive way), because it's the complete opposite of my default way of handling interactions.

#sortinghatchats #badger secondary