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conundrumoftime · 8 months

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Fandom grandma tales: how I survived canon ruining two of the ships I liked.

(Written after a discussion with some of my TROP fan pals about how canon can break your heart re: shipping, and how fandom manages. There are spoilers here for the entire run of Babylon 5, and for one story JMS wrote after it. yes, that story. sorry.)

Babylon 5 was a sci-fi space opera show that ran from 1993 to 1998. It is sci-fi of the era of 22-episode seasons, of huge ensemble casts with characters who get their own B- and C-plots, with an effects and casting budget that doesn’t always match its ambition, and - something it was quite pioneering in, at the time - grand pre-planned story arcs.

It’s the first fandom that I was involved with in internet spaces as it was running, or at least when its final season was (there’s Discourse and drama from earlier years that I missed). Its showrunner, J. Michael Straczynski - ‘JMS’ - was very active in (non-fanfic) fan community spaces, and you always knew exactly what he was thinking about things because he was part of the discussion around them. There was also fanfic, which he didn’t stop but didn’t go near on the grounds of legal liability for story ideas.

Most of the fanfic in the early days as the show was airing was focused around two big ships, of which one was canon endgame (Delenn/Sheridan) and one was canon all-ends-in-despair (Marcus/Ivanova). I, as a teenager discovering a developing online fandom for the first time with all the overwhelm and excitement that causes (ask me anything about what reading fic was like before the days of tags/ratings/warnings!) got into Marcus/Ivanova and also into one of the minor ships, Delenn/Lennier.

Delenn/Lennier was never, ever going to happen in canon. This is obvious; it clashes with Delenn/Sheridan which was JMS’s baby darling OTP, the show’s big love story. Delenn is married for the later part of the show. Lennier is her diplomatic aide, is absolutely devoted to her, and they have a very intense mentor/student relationship, which it seems is kind of standard in their culture (when Delenn’s own mentor died she went briefly insane with grief and started a genocidal war over it) but is still Very Intense. He is canonically in love with her, but that’s as far as the explicit canon statements go.

However. HowEVER. Canon also gives us, for that relationship, some wonderful ship fuel. Lennier knows about every bad thing Delenn has done, including all the stuff she doesn’t/can’t tell her husband. He’s her link to her previous world and culture and stands by her even when they kick her out. She says at one point, “without him, I would stumble and fall and never get up again.”

And then… we had Season 5, the final season.

Season 5, for various complicated production reasons, was operating a little outside of pre-planned story arcs and in this season the Delenn/Lennier stuff ramped up about three gears in one go. It was still very obviously never, ever going to be canon, and was almost certainly not intended by the creator (who wrote most of the episodes himself) to look like there was even anything there. At this point Delenn is married; any relationship with her aide would not only be going against the show’s OTP, but going against it in the sense where she’s cheating on her husband, and there is Just No Way JMS would have gone there. And yet! Season 5 gave us:

A scene where Lennier says he can’t stay, it’s too painful to be around her now she’s married, and she’s devastated and has the following conversation with her husband about it:

S: I got your message about Lennier. Is there anything I can do?

D [snapping]: Almost certainly not.

S: Is it because of me?

D: In part, I think so.

S: Yeah, I was afraid of that. Well, as we say back on Earth, three’s a crowd.

D: On Minbar, three is sacred.

S [slightly uncomfortable laugh]: Well, I don’t think I’m ready to handle that one, Delenn.

Delenn then calling Lennier back to the station to do some secret mission thing for her, which involves her sneaking out of her bed while her husband sleeps to meet Lennier in a darkened alley behind a bar, where she tenderly strokes his face and they have a whole conversation about whether her husband understands her or not.

A scene where Lennier comes back from his secret mission to meet both Delenn and Sheridan, Delenn goes to greet him with a hug, and Lennier does this very pointed step back and nod in the direction of her husband, and she pulls back and just sort of pats him on the arms instead.

I MEAN.

But, the issue here is not what fans did about it but what canon did about it. Canon did the canon equivalent of dragging that ship outside and shooting it in the head.

In the final few episodes of the entire series, Lennier tries to kill Sheridan, runs away in shame, and then someone finds his diary in which he’d been writing for ages about what a bad decision he thought Delenn had made and how her whole marriage was an awful idea. Even to this day, it’s fun/awful watching people go through a first-time watch when they get to season 5 and hit that. ‘Character assassination in the form of a diary’ was a whole thing for a while. It’s been 20+ years and the actor who played Lennier is stilll mad about it (not because of shippy stuff, but because he - correctly! - thinks Lennier absolutely would not have done that).

What *fandom* did, on the other hand, was Fixed The Problem.

Delenn/Lennier was not at all a big ship when the series was airing, and for a few years after. Then the fandom dynamics started to change. With less pressure on what canon was going to do, it felt like fandom had more space to play around with things it didn’t do. Fanfic got less interested in trying to fit within the overall story being told and started spinning off in all its own directions. And *this* ship started getting bigger and bigger. People did really interesting things with it, canon divergence went in all directions, everyone wrote a fix-it story of some variety, some authors did a great series of connected stories based on an idea that Minbari have three genders, the quality of the writing has been brilliant. And I think without that absolute whiplash feeling of what happened in canon, there would never have been this feeling of “well I’m not having THAT” which led to all this.

We did not need canon! Canon had done its thing. And canon had broken our hearts enough ways with many of the other stories it told (entirely on purpose) and we weren’t just going to sit back and let it ruin us forever.

By comparison, the other ship I was into was Marcus/Ivanova. This is entirely doomed. Susan Ivanova’s love life is just perpetually doomed. The first partner of hers we meet is an ex who’s interested in getting back together, but then it turns out he’s just using her to infiltrate the station for the fascist terrorist group he’s secretly joined. Then she falls for an archrival of hers, Talia, who works for Psi Corps, the organisation she loathes most of all things - but it’s okay because it turns out Talia is starting to question them too! Maybe these crazy kids can make it work! They have one night together and then OOPS turns out Talia was being secretly controlled by a sleeper personality implanted in her by Psi Corps the whole time. Ivanova’s love life is doomed.

So for two seasons, she has this sort-of-flirty, sort-of-bickery, sort-of-friendship going with Marcus, who is on the surface of it very much “why not fall in love at first sight like a true romantic, YOLO!” but it turns out is actually deeply messed up himself and full of survivor’s guilt and pain and, you get the clear impression, would have died of shock if she’d actually called his bluff on the OTT flirting and said “yeah, let’s go for it”. And then he sacrifices himself to save her life. It is a very tragic ending, it is absolutely the way he would have wanted to go, she wakes up both furious and absolutely distraught, says that the last thing she heard was him saying “I love you”, says she wishes she’d at least slept with him once, and says that in a way all love is unrequited. PAIN.

So, lots of fix-it fanfic, lots of ‘Marcus comes back to life’, lots of canon divergence AUs where he doesn’t die and they live happily ever after and both get over their huge levels of unresolved pain. Pretty standard for that kind of pairing. And as a pairing it doesn’t get in the way of any big canon pairings, it doesn’t imply anything icky like mentor/student power imbalances or adultery. And JMS clearly quite liked it. So that’s better, right?

NO. It was WORSE.

JMS wrote an Marcus/Ivanova story himself, published in one of the sci-fi magazines, to try to give them a happy ending. This happy ending involves Marcus, many many years in the future, waking up from the cryogenic suspension he’s in (it’s sci-fi, keep up, keep up). Ivanova is long dead, but he isn’t about to let this get in the way, so what he does is to *create a new Ivanova* by getting some kind of DNA + computerised memory/personality bank thing, finding a doctor who will clone her, putting himself back into animated sleep until the clone reaches the age Ivanova was when she died, then - THEN, I’M STILL GOING - takes her to a distant planet where, with her memories wiped and their spaceship having deliberately been crashed BY HIM so there’s no way back, they live out their lives in peace.

WHAT.

That pairing still does okay in fandom but it’s not really taken on a post-show world of headcanons and riffing on other people’s ideas and tropes in the way that Delenn/Lennier has (and we all just pretend that story never existed).

So! This has been my experiences in the field of What We Do When The Show Has Thoughts On That Non-Endgame Ship We’re Into. Fandom manages. Fandom will see you through. And in the words of Susan Ivanova:

Babylon Five was the last of the Babylon stations; there would never be another. It changed the future, and it changed us. It taught us that we have to create the future, or others will do it for us. It showed us that we have to care for one another, for if we don’t, who will? And that true strength sometimes comes from the most unlikely places. Mostly though, I think it gave us hope that there can always be new beginnings - even for people like us.

#fandom grandma #fandom history #non-endgame ships #shipping #canon and non-canon ships #babylon 5 #delenn x lennier #marcus x ivanova #that story's not canon if I say it's not canon #b5 #what in the actual hell was that diary anyway #snarky bill mumy interview forever in our hearts #never have I seen a more perfect ot3 setup and YET

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kittenfangirl20 · 8 months

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I like the canon version of the Marauders, a very close group of friends who are mostly good people who do have a flaw of being bullies to Snape, but they were starting to grow out of it, but were screwed over because of a terrible war. I hate the fanon version of the Marauders that are portrayed as uber feminists who bullied Snape the incel in the name of social justice. I also don’t like how some parts of the Marauders fandom acts of if Regulus Black is the real true love of James when in reality James always had a crush on Lily. I also don’t like how WolfStar is treated as OTP and some people go so far as to say you are homophobic if you don’t ship them. To me nothing pointed to Remus ever being attracted to guys, in fact I think it was more likely that he was straight. I see Sirius as being pansexual, but I think his main guy crush was James, not Remus. The only reason why he never acted on that crush was because he knew that James was straight and in love with Lily.

#harry potter #anti jegulus #anti wolfstar #pro canon marauders #anti fanon marauders #my opinions #bullying is not ok #i can’t believe i have to say that #jilly

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quillandsaber · 2 months

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It seems like I am fated to crawl back to Tumblr every time I play a new Final Fantasy game to wax poetic about my OTPs. This time it's Final Fantasy XVI and Warfield.

To me, there's an important unstated implication I haven't seen many people talk about in the fandom discourse: in medieval/Renaissance Europe (which was the cultural basis for Valisthea), the only reason a girl would be sent as a ward to a man she's not related to with no daughters would be if the intention was for her to eventually marry one of his sons, probably one a little older than she. Clive would have known this. Jill would have known this. Everyone would have known this. Anabella may not have liked it, but she would have known this. Clive and Jill's friendship would have formed with the underlying assumption that they were supposed to be husband and wife one day. While we as modern people tend to revolt at the idea of child betrothal as a matter of principle, we have to remember that, in a world where arranged (or at the very least approved/facilitated) marriage is likely the only option for most people, Clive and Jill would have probably thought they were pretty lucky that they knew and liked the person who they were going to spend the rest of their life with.

So now rewatch the cutscenes when they reunite after thirteen years apart; it's not just "my friend, who I thought was dead for thirteen years, is alive." It's "the only person I have ever thought of as a life partner, who I thought was dead for thirteen years, is alive." It makes complete sense why Jill's immediate response is "I'm going with you; we're facing this together" and why Clive doesn't argue. The fact that they're going to do things together is a foregone conclusion. They never have a "what exactly are we" talk because they don't have to.

This is the way it was supposed to be.

#ffxvi #jill warrick #clive rosfield #warfield #cliji #warrose

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am-i-the-asshole-official · 5 months

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AITA for arguing with someone over ships?

🧀⛵ so i can find this later

Yes, this is ship discourse AITA #294729472 you can scroll away, english isn't my first language, my apologies.

So I (16M (But 13-14 at the time)) am in a very niche fandom. As in, we didn't have any new content for the past 5 years and media is old af (2013), very few fans, most of us know each other already.

I used to have these mutuals Cheese (Not their real name) (around my age i think?? I can't remember) and Breadstick (Not his real name) (18M).

We all had our little ships, ok? I like the little (dumbass golden retriever boy) x (badass traumatized man) ship, Cheese liked the little (badass traumatized man) x (literally the same thing but evil and abusive) and Breadstick liked both ships.

I met Breadstick before meeting Cheese so we were already friends before i met Cheese. I thought "Cool, another person likes this little niche thing i'm hyperfixated on!" So we became mutuals.

I didn't anticipate that we would argue about ships, but oh well. So, i'm a very chill person regarding ships, literally any, although i do have NOTPs, i'm not really toxic about my hatred, i just go "Ah, not my thing" and scroll away not without blocking the person, but really nothing personal and no hard feelings, i can perfectly be friends with someone who loves my notp.

In fact, that was the case with Cheese. They shipped my NOTP, like A LOT. But I was okay with it, i mean these are just characters and all we're doing is being silly. I didn't take this THAT seriously. However, when I seemed to talk about my ship, Cheese seemed uncomfortable in some way.

When I was talking about my fankid (call me cringe idc) of my OTP, Cheese got very confused and asked who was i talking about. Breadstick came in and introduced my fankid to them, since he knew about it before. Cheese just started being rude, literally saying swear words (Not against them but, the context didn't really call for it? No one was being mean or mad), saying, and i quote as best as i can, "I don't know what the fuck made you think i knew who the hell [Fankid] was".

I got very mad about it, so i privately dm'ed Breadstick about Cheese's attitude. We began trash talking about them, which, i admit was a very trashy thing to do and definitely asshole material™.

Reason why may i be the asshole: over time, Breadstick just started complaining a lot about Cheese, and I could honestly agree, it came to the point of us disliking them to some degree but not telling them and not breaking the mutual, that could be considered two faced behavior.

This was partly influenced because of another incident. So Cheese and Breadstick where rambling about an OT3 (3 person ship) they had in common, basically sharing ideas and stuff. I thought it would be fun and went "Hey, I have an OT3 too, maybe i should post about it too". So I went and posted about it, but Cheese felt very uncomfortable with that, since basically my OT3 was exactly like Cheese's OT3 but one character is different, "basically".

They said "You have your thing, let US have ours". Felt bad and honestly, maybe i shouldn't have intruded their ot3 rambling. I didn't expect such negative reaction out of them.

In other occasions they complained about me posting a little too much about my ship, even though they did the same thing with theirs. And they also had a mutual that said "If you ship [this character] you suck and i fucking hate you. [character] is too abusive to be shipped with anyone and you can't just make an AU, that would just change him as a character completely" which, dear god, that language wasn't needed, right?. And despite that crazy person saying that, Cheese agreed with their take, despite literally shipping the character in question with another one. And abusively too, which like you do you, lord knows i do that too, but agreeing with a take like that while doing exactly what it is complaining about is weird. On the other side, that person wasn't my mutual, so it's unrealistic of me to expect Cheese to control their mutuals over me, Cheese can mutual whoever they want, but i can still be weirded out right?

That is without including them telling other people to kill themselves over shipping, so it was clear that Cheese took this shipping thing seriously while me and Breadstick to some degree didn't. Honestly another reason why i might be an asshole, clearly they felt their otp was personal and me not liking it + ignoring it caused a bad environment, mala mía, but what else could i have done?

So, clearly Cheese is kind of an asshole to some degree. But i think what makes ME an asshole too is when I trash talked behind their back and cut them off way later than i should've. And also, i guess i shoved my ship down their throat taking by how mad they were about it? I didn't do it intentionally though and i could definitely say they did the same thing too when 80% of the fandom and character tags was them posting about their ship. Again, small niche fandom for old unpopular media, we are keeping it alive ourselves.

What are these acronyms?

#aita #am i the asshole #ship discourse #posts that make me crave one of those lil cheese dip breadstick snack packs #which i have not eaten in roughly uhhhh at least a decade and a half #but the taste. you never forget that taste

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a-dumb-sarcastic-bisexual · 5 months

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Hey.... Heyyyyyy.... How y'all doing.... take the Nimona headcanons that have been rotting in my notes app for the past four months

Ambrosius has kept track of the weirdest things he’s signed for a fan

At the very tippy top is a dinner plate a dog crate and a baby

And by baby I do mean living breathing crying baby

He tried really hard to find something else to sign but for some reason the parents were really insistent on it being their baby

And for some reason he did it

There are hundreds of photos of this infant with a signature on his forehead

And that kid to this day will whip out his baby photos and show people that he was that baby

Multiple knights (cough cough Todd) tried to recreate that situation but it didn’t have the same effect

I feel like Bal gets really bad migraines (which kind of comes with the territory of using your head like a bartering ram)

And when they do happen Nimona and Ambrosius do everything in their power to make sure that it doesn’t get worse

I feel like Ambrosius is stupidly good at video games

I have this little headcanon that books and games were kind of an escape for him

His own personal little oasis from being the golden child with a million expectations and responsibilities on his back

He's not very good at playing with other people tho because he was always scared people would figure out who he was just based on his voice alone (and he’s not wrong for thinking that)

Nimona is also really good at video games (I mean she’s also half of the reason they were invented but that’s a long ass story)

So because I’ve been away for so long I wanted to bless you with my friend's reaction to the movie

Just for some context tho it did take us months to finish because we all have work and school and we couldn’t see each other for a while so if I missed some stuff I’ll add it later

“Aw boyfriends” (When they were on the catwalk)

“Why are they so cute” “they’re literally my otp” and “they have cute banter” (The entire time before the knighting ceremony)

JB: “Oh she’s got Daddy issues huh” Me: “why do you say that?” JB “cause why else would she follow a man”(As they’re walking through the kingdom)

JB: “God what a fake fucking bitch I hate the way she talks” (As the director is scolding the knights)

“He knows him so well”(He hates freestyle jazz)

“It’s his boyfriend” “aw bae why’d you throw a smoke bomb at me” “look how frantic he is to find him” “he can’t shoot look at that face” (the entire subway/market scene”)

JB: “I think this scene is curing her daddy issues and yours” (the alley scene)

(Same scene) KO: “why is he acting like it’s hurting him more?” Me: “Cause that’s his kid” KO: “wow this really is healing your daddy issues”

JB: “What am I even watching?” “I fucking knew it she was such a fake bitch” (The squires video)

“Oh my god he’s so embarrassing” “is he really jealous of a kid” “oh my god the director really doesn’t give a fuck huh?” “He didn’t say that out loud” “but does she?” “No” (Ambrosius freak out)

JJ: “oh my god this is like Archane” Me: “shut the fuck up about Archane” (in my defense he kept mentioning Archane the whole time)

“If I could turn into a dragon I’d never turn back” “same I’d love to breathe cereal” (during the fight)

“He’s so embarrassing why is he dying that dramatic” (proceeds to make fun of Ambrosius' “death” the whole time)

“Did they really upload her confession to their version of YouTube” “is his account name really BalliSTAR?” “Why are they dancing?” “His username is Loins_of_gold? Why is he such a dork??”

JB: “Awe nachos are totally their thing” “he remembered he’s allergic he still loves him!”

JJ: “he’s a knight?” Me “have you been watching this movie with your eyes closed?”

And then we freaked out about Ambrosius saying I love you and Bal not saying it back

We said nothing when Bal pulled a sword on Nimona they kind of just sat shocked

JB kept mentioning the flashback and after it happened all I said was “you wanted the flashback there’s your fucking flashback” while she sat in sad silence

They also just kept saying in shock “that’s her? That’s Gloreth” while I laughed

We kind of spent the rest of the movie in silence until Bal and Ambrosius kissed at the end and then everyone collectively lost their shit

They lost their shit again when Nimona showed back up and JB went upstairs because even tho Nimona came back to life she was still sad

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proudproship · 4 months

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Shipping was a huge part of fandom culture.

It's what brought people together, and made people keep watching until the next episode, or waiting till that new DLC releases, or the author(s) publish the next book in the series.

It doesn't matter how "good" or "bad" the ship was.

It helped define the fandom.

JayFeather x Stick normalized humour in an otherwise-serious book.

Fontcest kept the confusing shit going and empowered the "edgy" fans to be more cringe.

Foxy x Mangle made a new generation of monster fuckers and furries that wouldn't be embarrassed about it.

You can't deny there was a ship that the whole fandom knew about.

It shaped the community.

Some choose to be grateful. Some remain in spite.

Why do some people remain so hateful of the past? Maybe they haven't let go?

Grief can be hard, and it's harder to have to let go.

But it's even harder to have to continue this war with yourself and your fandommates.

You don't have to like a ship. Heck, you can even hate it!

But just remember there is someone out there that holds their ship close and dear to them, like a child holds their blanket.

You wouldn't want to take away the child's blanket, would you?

My OTP genuinely did help me through depression.

It was my gay awakening, too.

It's kinda the only reason I decided to stay breathing.

This goes for every ship, problematic or not:

Do not take away their blanket. Some people need it.

They will let go on their own; so you should too.

And it's okay.

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weirdly-specific-but-ok · 4 months

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Pt I wash it down but i've never watched it... and neither have you.

Well, hello there, remember when you guys tried to explain Goncharov to me and I said I wanted to create a fake movie/show? Have it, beautiful maggots. Wash It Down the TV show, mostly accurately explained. Kind of. You know me by now.

Everything is a metaphor, except for the things that are subtext.

The rich blonde girl Carla turns into a deranged psychopath, but in a way that is vaguely inspiring. In the year of our lord and damner 2024, any kind of character development is vaguely inspiring. Especially when it's done by Saoirse Ronan.

Purple hearts this RWRB that, you guys are SLEEPING on Nicholas Galitzine's role in Wash It Down. Which is mostly being disappointingly straight, until he isn't, and inspiringly revolutionary, until he isn't. Dan is honestly just a whole neurotic mess, and we at tumblr do love us a good neurotic mess.

It's a tale as old as time, really. Girl meets boy, girl falls for boy, girl meets girl, boy betrays girl, girl falls for girl, boy falls for girl. Just your average love story.

American cops being shits, just another day on planet earth. The DARE program failing miserably, just another day on planet earth.

Yasmin Finney the gorgeous as Talitha, who is very gay, very angry, and disturbingly obsessed with making paper dolls. Which I'm sure will not come into play later in the s--nvm it's another metaphor for the paper-thin veneer of civilised society in a world on fire with rage.

There is a lot of alcohol. Mostly wine. White wine. Which isn't significant, until it is because it is now also a metaphor.

Inappropriately timed renditions of the Mary Poppins 1964 soundtrack, that are guaranteed to slowly ruin your childhood until the word sugar inspires the inner arsonist in all of us.

First-Twilight-movie-levels of intense blue saturation of, well, everything. It's for the metaphor, guys, I'm sure the filmmakers knew what they were doing.

Carla and Dan are absolute OTP, until they aren't, and Carla and Talitha are absolute OTP, until Carla pulls a gun on Talitha and sings a lullaby to her. I am no longer sure the filmmakers knew what they were doing.

The world is Bad Bad Very Bad. Which I'm sure none of us can relate to.

Love is complicated and unstable, but like, in a shippy way. Mostly.

An oddly specific ring of imagery that becomes so convoluted that it starts to parody itself until the show is a metaphor for the show itself and even Christopher Nolan is raising his glass in reluctant admiration.

Senseless cliffhangers that are an interesting directing choice for sure. Bold, but interesting.

More Mary Poppins. Your childhood is entirely ruined. You become an arsonist.

The paper dolls catch fire. You are now part of the metaphor.

Very cute romance with a lot of attempted murder and societal rebellion thrown in. Hallmark is shaking.

Accurate? Who knows. Not you. Not me. Not anyone... yet.

@queermarzipan @madfangirlontheloose tagged for no suspicious reason.

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olxwxa · 1 year

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WEDNESDAY ADDAMS and TYLER GALPIN in episode 1.08, “A MURDER OF WOES”

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weylersource · 8 months

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OTP MEME ♥ 2/2 quotes "I knew there was a reason I liked you."

#wyler #weyler #wednesdayedit #wednesday addams #tyler galpin #character: wednesday addams #character: tyler galpin #ship: wyler #timeline: season one #post type: gifset #by: weylersource #by: gabbi #otpmeme

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tirsynni · 7 months

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If we're asking about BotW/TotK ships, any thoughts on Revalink? Asking mostly just because it has been living in my head rent-free for months and I constantly desire more people to talk about it.

Anonymous asked:

Sorry for asking about your opinion on Revalink without even checking to see that you had already written Revalink fics, feel free to ignore previous ask

Oh, honey. I am always happy to talk about Revalink. They are absolutely my BotW/TotK OTP. I also adore Revali and I hungrily devoured even the slightest mention of him in TotK and have multiple WIPs scribbled on my laptop finding out ways to have him actually in TotK.

(Do I still feel a little cheated? Maybe. I wasn't expecting much, but ow, TotK.)

This ship has an insane amount of potential, especially since we have so few of Link's memories available in BotW. Maybe it was always just brutal tension between two fucked up young Champions with far too much weight on their shoulders (with most of it being self-imposed!). Maybe they quietly figured out something, just for Link to forget or maybe he didn't even forget but it didn't matter because the Link of then and the Link of now are so different. Ack! So much potential!

...but anyway.

Pre-Calamity, these two had so much weight dragging them down and not a single positive communication skill in sight. Link was buried under the title of Champion and Hero to the point he could barely see the sky anymore. Revali pushed and pushed and pushed himself to the point of collapse. He was absolutely driven and stubborn and passionate and snarky and desperate for validation. Link was silently begging for everyone to not look at him and Revali was silently begging for someone to fucking see him.

Specifically, he wanted Link to see him.

That's what absolutely kills me about that pairing. We don't know what Link saw or thought. We got everyone's journal but his. Hell, even his memories seemed like they were from an outsider's perspective (especially the last one). But we got Revali's journal and we got to hear Revali speak (and snark and yell) and so it baffles me when people paint him as an asshole who hated Link.

Doubtlessly, Revali would have pushed himself forever without external validation, but it didn't change the fact that he was thirsty for it. Where do we see it most? In his interactions with Link. In his journal talking about Link. It was a constant chant of "See me, see me." Link was strong and skilled and we saw in his limited memories that he pushed himself, too. While Zelda quietly mused in a safe, dry spot, Link stood in the rain and continued to practice with his sword. He threw himself at hordes of monsters and Zelda scolded him for being reckless. For their own reasons, Revali and Link actively pushed themselves arguably long after almost anyone else would have stopped, and I think Revali saw that in Link -- saw a possible peer who valued hard work and sweat and determination -- and desperately wanted Link to see him, too.

When they reunited one hundred years later, for all of Revali's snark about Link making him wait, nothing can convince me that Revali wasn't happy to see him again. We won't know what happened in those final days before the Calamity or what Revali knew about Link during those hundred years, but the fact that Revali specifically told Link to avenge him will forever be telling to me. Revali -- fiercely independent, determined Revali -- recognized that he couldn't avenge his own death. He also didn't expect the fight to be impersonal for Link, for it to be another thing for Link to check off in his quest. He didn't want Link to kill the Blight on his behalf: he wanted Link to do what he couldn't, he wanted Link to treat the fight as something personal, he wanted Link to fight in Revali's name. He wanted Link to avenge him.

(And in return, he gave Link wings and personally lifted him into the sky. <3 With an adorable little flourish.)

I also love the dialogue choices during the fight, and they are part of my argument for why Revali isn't hateful: he's snappy and snarky and is absolutely the guy who shows he cares about by calling his love interest an idiot for failing to appropriately care for himself. He spends that entire fight scolding Link and cheering Link on and snarking at Link and fretting over Link, depending on how the fight goes. He gets so worried for Link. Not because Revali won't be avenged but because Link is hurt and he checks to see if he is okay. ;_;

On Link's half? If Revali is the bird who is desperate to fly as high as he can, Link is absolutely the trapped, muzzled songbird. There's one scene where the king is scolding Zelda and Link is kneeling beside Zelda, absolutely forgotten by both of them. He's pretty much part of the scenery in that memory. His head is bowed. His face is expressionless. He's disregarded butterly as the king berates Zelda and Zelda focuses on vainly defending herself. That exemplifies so much of his backstory: he's the silent Knight. He's the Wielder of Evil's Bane. He's the guy who effortlessly claimed his destiny by pulling the Master Sword while Zelda struggled fruitlessly to call upon her sacred powers. I would argue (and this isn't a slight against Zelda, who is clearly a traumatized, overburdened, and royal teenager in all of these memories) that when Zelda finally sees Link as an actual person and not just another symbol of her failure, she still struggles to see him as a true individual and not another way for her to deal with and understand her own problems. For most of the characters in those memories, Link is characterized by his role and his duty, not as an actual overburdened teenager himself.

Except Revali, who never shows any indication that he gives a damn about titles and destiny and all of that bullshit, sees Link and wants Link to see him. Revali wants a response. Revali wants Link.

I've also written briefly about this before, but in regards to symbolism, Revali is also the closest in-game parallel to things normally associated with the Heroes of Courage. Courage is Farore green, courage is Farore's Wind. In Skyward Sword, Link rides upon his loftwing, a sacred creature which connects the Hylians to the Goddess. In Wind Waker, well, do I need to say it? The other Champions fit well with Din/Power (Urbosa and Daruk) and Nayru/Wisdom (Zelda and Mipha). Revali? Fits great with Farore/Courage. Revali, who pushes Link and gets so pissed (and hurt) when Link doesn't push back. Revali, who tells Link to watch him as he flies and grows so upset when Link doesn't react to that magical moment at all.

To leave the Great Plateau and begin his journey, Link needs to take a leap of faith and glide through the sky. Link needs the wind. Link needs to fly.

I could keep going for a while, but I think I should stop. lol I've written plenty of meta about these two before, though, so feel free to check out my Revalink tag. Always feel free to ask about these two (and fandom and such in general). I love rambling about them and people IRL tend to look at me like I'm crazy when I begin talking about this stuff. :D

#revalink #meta #anonymous ask #i have FEELINGS about these two okay?

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your-name-is-jim · 9 months

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What a Kirk/Spock shipper sees in a Kirk/Female-Love-Interest story [PART 1/2]

[Part 2]

This is a pretty long post in two parts, so I hope you'll find it interesting. Don't worry, I shared a lot of pictures too! :)

First of all, what is it about?

An analysis about a 32-pages comic published in 2020 by IDW Publishing. More specifically, I'm talking about the Valentine's Day special from the comics series Star Trek: Year Five that I recommended here. The title of this story is Captains of Sea and War, and this is the official summary:

"James T. Kirk has had many loves during his mission among the stars, but this time he may have met his match in fellow Starfleet Captain Laura Rhone."

As I said in my review of Star Trek: Year Five, this Valentine's Day special is not linked to anything else in the main comics series. That means it can be read alone or, on the contrary, it can be skipped if you're only interested in the series (where Kirk doesn't have love interests, by the way).

Do I recommend this comic issue?

It depends on your preference! Just like the rest of Star Trek: Year Five series, the art is great and so is the characterization, at least most of the times. Jim is written as a romantic book lover and definitely not as a womanizer. However, if you only ship Kirk/Spock or you're not into Kirk romance with women in general, I believe you should avoid wasting your time and money. Just read my analysis if you're curious! :)

Why am I talking about this? And why as a Kirk/Spock shipper?

Good question. The short answer is that I read this comic and I have a lot of thoughts about it.

The long answer is that I love TOS Kirk and I'm interested in him as a character, romantic scenarios included. Since Kirk/Spock is my OTP, I can't suddenly take my slash goggles off, so I already knew before reading this comic that I'm not exactly the target audience and nothing is ever going to convince me that Spock isn't The One for Kirk. However, it was an interesting reading in multiple ways, so I'd like to say why!

I want to be 100% clear about my Kirk/Spock preference because even if I will try to talk objectively about the comic to a certain degree, this analysis is biased; if you don't like Kirk/Spock, this is NOT the post for you. That said, you may not see the point in a K/S shipper writing an analysis about a romance between Kirk and a female character, but… well, unless someday they'll release official Kirk/Spock comics, this is all we have.

There are two reasons why I read this story despite being pretty much a monoshipper when it comes to Kirk:

I had already read the main comics series and I liked it a lot, so I wanted to give this special a try.

I thought it was probably going to be okay, because in my headcanon Kirk and Spock don't actually get together until The Motion Picture. Kirk has a lot of love interests before that movie, so adding another one doesn't really bother me. It turned out (as I'll mention later) that I wasn't completely right about the era, but I take Star Trek comics as "extras", so I just ignore what I don't like.

Note: this analysis contains SPOILERS from the entire Valentine's Day special.

However, it does not contain spoilers from the main Star Trek: Year Five comics series. So, if you're planning to read that one, you're safe here! Just avoid this post if you don't want spoilers about the Valentine's Day issue.

Okay, are you ready? Let's go!

So, Jim is on shore leave with Bones. As you can see, the moment a pretty woman gets close to them, Bones leaves, because he's a great friend :)

We already know from the summary that the woman who talks to Jim is Captain Laura Rhone. Now, I'm already going to stop here to take a moment to at least appreciate the creators' effort: as someone interested in fictional writing, I must admit that creating a Valentine's Day special in 2020 about James T. Kirk finding love is an extremely hard task, to put it mildly. Seriously, if it can't be Spock (or the Enterprise :P), how the hell do you even do it? Are you going to give Jim another woman-of-the-week who's going to die? Another blond white woman? Another woman who forces him to choose between her and his ship? Or, on the contrary, a woman who'll choose for him and break up because she knows he wants the Enterprise?

NO.

Star Trek TOS was made in the 1960s, but we're in the 2020s now. Fans are tired to see always the same tropes with female love interests, and some of those tropes are just very outdated. So what does this comic do? Well, first of all, fixing what didn't work in Turnabout Intruder. Oh, let me get this straight: overall, I like Turnabout Intruder. I love the canon bodyswap, and I lost count of how many times I quoted "You are closer to the Captain than anyone in the universe" in my Kirk/Spock fan-fictions. However, there's no way that in the 2020s we're going to believe that a positive future means this:

In the Valentine's Day comic, Janice Lester still exists (she's mentioned once in a dialogue), but since Laura Rhone is a very good Starfleet captain around the same time, I believe we're now supposed to think that Janice was one crazy person who was never going to become a captain because of her personality and behavior, not because she's a woman. This is actually how I've always liked to mentally re-write this part of Turnabout Intruder in my head, because that's how I want to imagine it.

Anyway, back to the comic. Captain Laura Rhone is on shore leave too; she recognizes Captain James T. Kirk and she decides to introduce herself to him. She's very straightforward about her interest in him, so we immediately see that part of her personality.

Of course, the two captains can't enjoy their shore leave until the end. I'm posting this part to appreciate Bones in his beach clothes and Laura's very loyal Andorian officer who slips ("Laura! I mean, Ma'am!") when she sees her Captain in danger and oh whoops now I ship them. She doesn't remind me of anyone, I don't know what you're talking about.

Anyway, wrong ship. I'm obviously not following what the story is trying to tell me, because this is what happens next:

Just a moment to appreciate sleeping Jim. Cute.

So, after that night together, Jim and Laura don't see each other for 6 months. They meet again when the Drake, Laura's starship, has a battle against a group of space pirates and the Enterprise intervenes without consulting Laura first. Laura and Jim have a slight fight about that, but Jim apologizes, and it ends with them in bed again.

After that, because Jim is a romantic man, not a womanizer, and thank goodness the creators of this comic know, Jim asks Laura on a date. As they're walking together on a planet, Laura points out that they're doing things in the wrong order. Jim's reply is rather interesting: he asks her if they need to know what they're doing, and if there has to be a shape or a meaning to it. It's the first sign that even if they're both obviously attracted to each other, Jim is unsure about the kind of relationship he wants with her. When I think about his previous experiences, I believe it makes sense. He may be a romantic at heart, but he suffered so much for love that I can see why he's trying to be careful. There's also another reason, more related to the time this story takes place, which is a few months before the end of Jim's five-year mission. We see it here:

Ah, yes, a typical first date conversation: what Spock talks about. Well done, Jim. Saying "a friend of mine" doesn't make it less obvious; I did my Star Trek homework and I know you're quoting the basis of Vulcan philosophy to her :D

(Of course, now I won't stop imagining Jim casually mentioning Spock during every single date he has with someone… That would explain why his love stories never last…)

On a serious note, as I was working on this analysis I realized something extremely interesting about the context of Jim's lines. Jim is mentioning IDIC when he's questioning his future as a starship captain. He remembers that Spock talks about Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations, but Jim can only do one job. However, what will Spock tell him someday, right next to an IDIC flag?

Now, I don't know if the people who worked on the Valentine's Day comic really thought about this, but I think it's still, well, fascinating that Jim is using Spock's words to think about his own future, but he's following the wrong direction. I believe it's also worth pointing out that Spock will tell Jim that commanding a starship is his "first, best destiny" years after finding his own place in the universe. On the contrary, during the time this comic takes place, Spock is busy with his own inner distress.

Anyway, that's enough Spock for now. Back to Jim's first date with Laura…

So, I started this analysis with a question: how the hell do you write a love story with TOS Kirk in 2020? This is the way this comic tries to answer: you create a female character just like him.

Okay, they look cute together. Laura loves being a starship captain! She loves reading! And dancing! And climbing!

Wait, wait, wait. I appreciate the inclusion of Jim Kirk's canon hobbies. I really do! But aren't we forgetting one?

This is interesting. Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but this makes me think that they didn't want Laura to have something in common with Spock. Spock is the character who plays chess the most in TOS, so I can see why the creators of the comic didn't want the readers to think about Spock instead of thinking about Jim's girlfriend. That would be too bad, huh? :)

There's also horseback riding missing, but that doesn't appear until the movies, so even if I personally believe that a farm boy like Jim learned how to ride horses when he was young, I can see why they skipped it in this comic. It's also mostly associated to another love interest (Antonia from Generations), but if this is the reason they didn't want to show Jim and Laura riding a horse, I'm just going to think even more that the lack of chess is suspicious, and they're counting Spock as one of the "girlfriends".

On the other hand, since horseback riding is associated to starship captains in TOS and TNG (I don't know about the other Star Trek TV series because I haven't watched them yet), I think it would have been a good idea to have one panel with Jim and Laura riding.

That said, if I had to make a guess about the real reason the comic doesn't show horses… I'm a doctor writer, not an artist, but I believe that drawing horses can be a pain in the ass, so in this comic they just didn't bother haha

Anyway, back to the plot! As I said, Jim and Laura's personalities are very alike. Of course, that doesn't mean they're perfect for each other, but I admit that this premise made me curious when I read this comic. Let's find out if it works out!

I'm posting this picture because of the book Laura is holding: first of all, this is where the title of this story, Captains of Sea and War, comes from. But it's also important to remember the book. You'll see why in Part 2. :)

So, two months later, Jim and Laura trust each other as captains without even talking:

We see Laura's other friend, probably her first officer, trying to warn her, just as Spock does on the Enterprise. I'm taking a little moment to appreciate "Noted, adored, and ignored, Commander", because it's really sweet. Imagine Jim telling this to Spock :D

So, the captains are right, and everything is good, because…

Okay, okay, wait a minute.

Apparently, one of the good things of this relationship is that Jim and Laura make a good team together. They don't even need to communicate to understand each other during a mission. Now… I don't even need to put my K/S goggles on to say that Jim and Spock are canonically one of the best teams in Starfleet, if not The best team. You don't need to ship them to know how many times they understand each other without words in the series, how many times they make plans and just know what the other will do, how many times Spock hears/sees someone that should be Jim and just knows something is wrong, and so on. Of course, as a Kirk/Spock shipper, reading in a Valentine's Day special that making a good team is good for Jim's love life makes me happy!

"Yep. All that sex didn't go to waste."

Jim. Jim. Are you saying that you and Laura are a good team in Starfleet because you had a lot of sex? I'm not even going to say what this makes me think as a K/S shipper… Did I say that Kirk and Spock are the best team? :D

Okay, okay, maybe it's not the same. Because Spock is a man, and Jim isn't attracted to men… right?

Ahem. I lost my mind when I read this for the first time, and I'm going to lose it again.

"There don't seem to have been many ladies in your life. Gentlemen, either." "Well, I've been busy."

Now, let's be honest here: Laura's lines didn't have to be phrased that way. We know Jim likes women, so even nowadays nobody would bat an eye at "there don't seem to have been many ladies in your life"; and if you're the writer of a very heterosexual comic who wants to avoid K/S shippers like me thinking "hehehe, because Jim has a man in his life", you can still write something neutral like "there don't seem to have been many lovers/romantic partners in your life". Or just a generic "it looks like you haven't been on many dates lately".

Laura mentioning "gentlemen" explicitly can make some readers think that men are an actual option for Jim. (Me, I'm "some readers".) Sure, it's not a confirmation, but Jim doesn't deny it. He just says he's been busy. There is room for interpretation in multiple directions, but even if I put my personal preference aside, I think it's important to remember something: in context, in this part of the story, Laura knows Jim. We've seen in a previous panel that they've done a lot of things together. Laura is not a stranger who may say "you don't have a girlfriend… or a boyfriend" because they don't know Jim. Personally, I think it's very likely that Laura asks about ladies and then adds gentlemen because she knows Jim is bisexual with a preference on women. It fits my headcanon for him. (Of course, he can be into anyone, not just men and women, and he has a preference for women because hasn't tried dating Spock yet :D)

Anyway, the other thing that panel points out is that neither captain would give up on their own starship. Well, that's fair.

Okay, okay, I'll be serious: Jim sacrifices the Enterprise in The Search for Spock during an emergency. Of course, it's definitely not a coincidence in the narrative that said emergency happens because Jim is looking for Spock's body. However, we all know how much Jim loves the Enterprise and how bad he feels without a starship, so it's only fair that in normal circumstances, he shouldn't be forced to give up on his "silver lady".

Laura understands that they're the same, so...

This is another thing I appreciated! Who cares about gender norms, a woman can propose to James T. Kirk! :D

Now, just as I said about the "gentlemen" line, it's important to think about the context of this proposal. When the two of them are drinking together, Laura says "I've been asking around about you". That means Jim and Laura's relationship is still casual, to the point that she could have expected him to have flings with other people too. Honestly, this is just my opinion, but I'm not even sure I'd call it exactly an open relationship, because that would still imply a relationship in the first place. I'm mostly referring to the fact that Laura has been asking around about Jim's love life instead of just, you know, asking him? I believe that if they trusted each other and were in an open romantic relationship, either they wouldn't care about each other's partners or they would just talk about it. Since Laura wants to marry Jim and have an exclusive relationship with him, it makes sense for her to bring up Jim's love life. However, I can't really help side-eyeing that "I've been asking around".

Am I reading too much into this? It's possible, but this is another clue about their dynamic that I'll mention later in the story.

Sooo, Laura asks Jim to marry him. What does Jim answer?

Unfortunately, I reached Tumblr limitations of the number of pictures I can share, so… you'll find out in Part 2!

If you're reading my analysis for the Kirk/Spock shipper's point of view, I especially recommend the second half, because that's where things get more interesting! :D

I hope you enjoyed the first part of this analysis! Thank you for reading until the end! See you soon!

Part 2!

#star trek analysis #star trek: year five #star trek comics #star trek: year five valentine's day special #james t. kirk #laura rhone #spirk #star trek the original series #star trek tos #k/s #kirk x spock #my gifs #well except for 'Captain Kirk is climbing a mountain' lol #the other gifs are mine

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thegreymoon · 3 months

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The Story of Minglan

So, she's still alive, smh.

The ONE thing I was asking for from this rebellion and they couldn't even give me that 😠

***

ARE YOU KIDDING ME?

Didn't your actual WIFE die yesterday? Aren't you supposed to be in mourning, for appearance's sake at least?

I thought we were done with him and his nonsense but apparently not.

***

She was only PRETENDING?

Why won't this drama let me have good things 😭😭

***

LMAOOOO

Baby is here to take back his home! He is now best buddies with the new Emperor, evil stepmom can seethe 🤣🤣

***

Are you kidding me?

I thought she would have more dignity and be openly hostile, not fawn over him so blatantly.

As if he would fall for her act twice.

***

Their faces, LMAO 🤣🤣

***

LMAO

Adult!Gu Tingye never really made it onto my list of favourite characters but I absolutely love how Feng Shaofeng plays him 🤣🤣 He's so smooth and charming, an absolute rascal! He smiles and I smile, no matter whether it's genuine or not!

***

Well, in my view, with all their money and lack of boundaries, these wastrel young masters could be doing much worse, such as raping and murdering (like the gentlemen from the Fourth and Fifth Gu house did in their time).

Third Brother is at least only out supporting the economy by frequenting brothels and hopefully paying the sex workers well. The Song Empire should send him an Imperial decree expressing its gratitude.

***

This is the full irony of her evildoing.

And even if he did not yield the title, what could she have possibly wanted that he would not have given?? She and her incompetent son had it made! But no. Nothing is enough when you're born too greedy for your own good.

***

Eh... not quite, but almost.

I am fascinated by these people. "We have spent your whole life hating you and ruining your life for no good reason, but how dare you not love us in return?"

LOLOLOLOL

Even Lin Qinshuang had more shame.

***

I live for beautiful scenery in c-dramas 💚

***

WHAT DO YOU MEAN YOU ARE NOT TAKING THE EXAM?

I'm more invested in him passing this exam than I am in me passing any of mine, which is obvious from the amount of time I spent watching his shenanigans instead of studying 😕

***

Cackling 🤣🤣

He's always so outraged by the lack of propriety 🤣🤣

I love the two of them, they are such a good pair! One is so proper and the other so improper!

***

LMAO, yes, panic 🤣🤣

It's episode 36, you loser! How long do you expect the girl to wait for you? You had better hurry!

***

God, this is nice 😭😭

I wish I had the skill to turn this into art! 💚

***

Oh, yes, it is the Old Madam you are eager to visit 🙄

IDK why, but he gives me the ick.

He hasn't really done anything wrong but he's always so nice and kind and sweet and subservient, plus he's not the OTP. All the alarm bells in my head are RINING!!

***

WHO THE FUCK?

I knew there was something shady about him, smh.

***

ARE YOU KIDDING ME?

Where do all these cockroaches come from?? Are there no single men in China to marry and you must go after someone who already has a wife??

I AM MAD.

***

LMAO, he at least has the decency to be shocked.

So, he is not on board this nonsense. Good. But is that what happens to screw up his marriage to Minglan? His family insists on him marrying this woman?

#the story of minglan #tsoml spoilers #tsoml ep36

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