#really this is more fandom critical

[eelfuneral]

I know I seem to be writing a lot about my issues with certain aspects of how the Jedi were written lately, but I will say that I do like them over all—especially when we look at individual Jedi characters. What has been prompting my flurry of dissection of the less than nice aspects of the Jedi as an organization has been seeing a number of really uncomfortable arguments in their favor. I’m going to elaborate on this, but I’m putting it below a cut and tagging it as “jedi critical” so you can avoid it if it’s not your thing. So here is a list of fandom Jedi takes that I don’t love:

1. The insistence that the Jedi having a repressive view of emotions is nothing more than a fanon myth. Star Wars canon isn’t terribly consistent: it has a number of different writers and George Lucas is famously indecisive about his beliefs regarding canon. As a result, you have a hodgepodge of differing portrayals of Jedi, but the one that people are most familiar with is the one from the sequel and prequel trilogies. While it can be argued that the Jedi are more about controlling how you react to your emotions and avoiding harming people, especially if you look beyond the films and at other canon material, the first six films don’t do a great job of portraying the Jedi in that way. When Yoda himself has multiple lines about how certain emotions (not reactions to them, but emotions by themselves) are of the Dark Side, can you really blame people for coming to this conclusion? The same goes for the idea that they don’t *really* forbid romantic love. When you have a whole subplot involving a prominent Jedi Knight having to hide a romantic relationship or face expulsion from the Order for having a romantic relationship in any capacity, then this argument doesn’t hold a lot of water. A rule stating that “romantic partner = automatic expulsion” does not line up with the idea that Jedi only ban possessive love.

2. Having any sympathy for Anakin Skywalker means you think that he’s never done anything wrong ever. I acknowledge that rabid Anakin stans who bash every other character to prop him up are very much a thing, but I don’t believe that we need to shut down every discussion of Anakin that doesn’t paint him as an ungrateful brat who needed to stop having so many damned emotions. Anakin was intentionally written as a sympathetic antihero and later a sympathetic villain. People picking up on the sadder elements of his life and the times where he maybe didn’t get everything he needed from the Jedi Order are sniffing out intentionally placed story nuggets that are designed to make his betrayal of everyone he loved in ROTS that much harder to watch. Also, acknowledging that the Order may not have been a great fit for Anakin isn’t the same as saying that it was somehow abusive or evil. No organization, real or fictional, can meet the needs of every single person. Anakin was certainly loved and cared about in the Jedi Order, but his personality and trauma arguably made him incompatible with their lifestyle.

3. The weird vitriol at the idea of Gray Jedi. Gray Jedi were very much a thing in the legends continuity and have been a fanon staple for literal decades. A lot of people aren’t fond of this concept, because they feel that it misrepresents how the force works, particularly in current canon. That’s perfectly fine, but acting like this type of Jedi was never, ever a part of canon is silly. Insisting that it’s a cardinal sin to depict a Gray Jedi in fanworks, which exist specifically to be a free-for-all that may not be canon compliant, is just mean. You didn’t have to like every fanwork or concept, but you cannot control what other people create for fun.

4. Outright denial that the clones are enslaved by the Republic. Clones are described as “property” and “equipment”. The Republic BUYS them. They do not have a choice but to go to war and don’t seem to be paid much, if at all. When a group of people are owned, bought, and sold, they are slaves by definition. I understand that the Jedi were dealt a bad hand and weren’t in a great position to do much about the situation, but I and a lot of other people would have loved to see more instances of Jedi advocating for clone citizenship and freedom. People noticing that the Jedi could have done more for the clones are not stating that they think the Jedi were 100% okay with the situation, and it is entirely possible to acknowledge the deep Jedi/clone friendships that we see in canon while acknowledging what the Republic was doing to the clones. Justifications of the clones’ enslavement mentioning that they liked being soldiers (they didn’t know anything different) or were treated well by the Jedi (Pong Krell existed, and they were still owned by the Republic) make me very uneasy. If your defense of your blorbos reads like Neo-Confederate chattel slavery apologia retrofitted to be about pretend space people, then maybe it’s time to do a little bit of self-reflection.

5. Ableism. When you throw takes like “if the Jedi philosophy regarding emotions is so hard for you, then you are a baby or a sociopath” into the tumblrsphere, they are always going to fall and hit people with disabilities that cause emotional regulation issues. The line between stating that people should not use emotions as an excuse to harm others and outright attacking people for having intense emotions in general is one that I have seen crossed, shat on, and lit on fire in defense of the Jedi.

6. Equating criticism of the Jedi to real-wold prejudice. Saying that criticizing the Jedi is the same as being antisemitic or homophobic is uncalled for. Queer and Jewish people exist in the real world, and pretend space wizards do not. Comparisons like this are insulting because they put real-world prejudice and fandom wank over space wizards on the same level. Do better.

#jedi critical #okay #really this is more fandom critical #fandom wank

[marzipanandminutiae]

I miss people using non-medicalized terms for other people's passions

like. well and good to talk about "hyperfixations," "special interests [in the context of an autistic person's favorite subject]," or "infodumping" if you have ADD/ADHD or autism, or are talking about someone who is, but...that's not everyone who feels strongly about something, obsesses, or loves talking about their interests. those words mean specific things, associated with specific forms of neurodivergence

don't assume everyone is comfortable with that language

"rambling" is a word; so is "ranting." "obsession" is a word. "passion" is a word. learn them and use them

#mini-rant #it makes me really uncomfortable when people use that language to talk about my fandom activities #because those are fine and useful words! they just. don't apply to me. #also the weird assumption that everyone who like...has a hobby is autistic? or feels passionately about any activity? #at least in this case it's coming from a more positive perspective and usually from autistic people themselves but #I see people claiming that X character with a hobby they love is 100% Confirmed Autistic and if you disagree you're a bigot #you are free to headcanon that! but. #neurotypical people also have hobbies sometimes! #just saw someone saying that the character Daria was 'undiagnosed autistic' and therefore criticizing her behavior was Bad #my friend. she is a fake person.

[lucyshypemaster]

you will NEVER see anyone writing paragraphs after paragraphs hating on keefe like they do with sophie.

#nah im sorry but i need to get this off my chest #how is it that SOPHIE always gets more hate compared to other characters or yk the ACTUAL ANTAGONISTS of the story? #why do ppl keep bringing up the fact that “she has too many powers” or “all the boys love her” TO SHIT ON HER #is sophie's character perfect? no #should sophie's writing be criticized? honestly yes take it up with shannon #but you ask a dumb bitch why they hate sophie and they'll start giving the funniest reasons ever #and it really makes you understand that these bitches will never say any of this if she was a boy #why do y'all expect so much from sophie #she does one mistake and everyone comes for her #she tries to do something and everyone comes for her #she tries to be friendly and everyone comes for her #she gets together with fitz and keefe and everyone comes for her #she manages to use weapons and fight properly and everyone comes for her #she shows a little emotion and everyone comes for her #hell she DOESN'T DO ANYTHING and EVERYONE COMES FOR HER. #“why did you mention keefe” oh bc yk he does a million mistakes and no one bats an eye #you can just clearly see the way this fandom treats sophie and keefe #kotlc #keeper of the lost cities #sophie foster

[dykecubes]

something else I wanted to point out in my post abt misogyny behind the scenes on the dsmp is how, when Niki first came forward very shortly after the dsmp ended to say there was a lot of misogyny from major male ccs behind the scenes, dt fans quickly accepted this as true because she didn't mention any names so it was easy to point fingers at wilbur or other men on the server and pretend her allegation didn't also very much implicate the dt, now that Connor, Sophie, Andi, and others have backed up Niki's claims of misogyny and confirmed that the dt were very much perpetrators of it as well they've suddenly stopped believing her

like idk I feel like nobody has mentioned Niki being basically the first to come out about the misogyny behind the scenes at all and how much of what she said lines up with what Connor said at the beginning of his stream, I just feel like it highlights the hypocrisy and contradictions from dt fans trying to justify why their faves couldn't possibly be perpetrators of misogyny

#fae.txt #dream situation #fandom critical #discourse #sorry if this doesnt make sense im sleepy #i feel like this is just my other post but with more words #but just. i just feel like at the very least niki's misogyny allegation is important and needs to be talked about more #i dont think anyone's really talked about it since the dsmp ended but i havent forgotten it #someone please tell me you remember this and if you have the clip please give me the link

[seriousbrat]

Accusing people, some of whom incidentally are likely LGBT themselves, of not viewing wol///fstar as canon because they "can't read queer-coding" is the cope of the century and borders on delusional. it's also condescending and disrespectful- why is your personal analysis of a work of fiction more valid than anyone else's, particularly when that analysis is almost certainly driven by confirmation bias? Have you asked yourself whether the "signs" you think you're reading in the text are actually there or whether you just want them to be? It's fine to want them to be and to add two and two and get six, personally I've done that with many works of fiction and I will continue to do so, but objectively there's no evidence that holds up to the slightest bit of scrutiny that jkr actually intended Sirius and Remus to secretly be in love.

Leaving aside the fact for now that this is JKR we're talking about and all that entails, it honestly verges on conspiracy-brained at times. Besides that, using homophobic stereotypes as "evidence" is, to put it plainly, shit. Some of these stereotypes might seem fairly innocuous yet still manage to be offensive (e.g. "tonks is queer-coded because she has short hair/is cool/has this personality trait or physical characteristic) but others honestly cross a line. Think for a moment about the logical leap you're making when you claim that werewolves being an allegory for stigmatised illnesses like AIDS is proof that R is gay. What equivalence is being drawn here? worth thinking about

I just want to say this is a work of children's literature and we're all free to interpret whatever we want and make up whatever silly things that we want with it. But you're not smarter or more special than anyone else because you think there's a gay way to look or speak or act, or for seriously believing that JKR created some kind of mad convoluted mental backflip conspiracy to specifically fuck with what was at the time a fringe element of online fandom that she likely wasn't even aware of. Apply Occam's razor here and go with the simplest explanation, which is that JKR, a heterosexual woman, wrote a children's book in the 90s with a majority heterosexual pairings and one token gay character. From there, do whatever you want. The end

#theyre channeling larrys at this point. likeits tjlc vibes in here #i say token but i wish grindledore was more of a thing in fandom like grindledore rise. my toxic boys r right there #wolfstar critical #<<< its not really because its not about the ship itself. hopefully thats clear. but jic #'tonks is gay bc she's cool' when will peeople learn that gay people can actually be like. any sort of person on the planet. #it's not that there aren't signals that exist in the community but turning that around and #genuinely believing that the presence of ultimately neutral characteristics tht can appear in any sort of person #is evidence for being gay is... not the serve u think it is #and besides! its lame uncool gay people erasure!

[betrixxxed]

Click for quality?? Forgot tumblr eats png files for some reason..Anyway I finally found out how I want to draw Alastor lol

I'm rewatching Hazbin Hotel with my friend and we were freaking out trying to figure out what that horizontal line across is chest is supposed to be...wouldn't be surprised if Viv didn't know either lol (no shade) ((a little shade))

#really liked this one so i figured i could start posting on tumblr lol #this feels weird #but ya i think it'll make drawing more fun #hazbin hotel #hazbin alastor #hazbin hotel fanart #alastor hazbin hotel #i hate his hair so much lol...i actually thought i liked it before i tried to draw it #and realized how much it bothered me #redesign wasn't really based on lovesarts design from youtube #but i have seen it before and really liked it so it probably influenced this #mostly its a blend of the original elements i actually liked and that uuuh #fandom human version who's white for some reason #youve seen him before im sure #hazbin redesign #hazbin hotel redesign #hazbin hotel critical #last tag there bc i think those usually go hand in hand with the redesigns?? #and also for blocking purposes ig #i like him a lot lol. made him kind of a DILF #if i did this again i would make the insides of his ears visible bc i forgot but oh well

[zukosdualdao]

i know people are (generally) joking when they say it but i do kind of hate the whole “katara could have just moved out of the way when azula shot lightning at her in the final agni kai” argument because it, whether intentionally or not, dismisses the emotional weight of the scene?

like, in case people have forgotten: lightning is fast. the scene dwindles into slow motion for dramatic effect, but that doesn’t mean that’s how it’s actually happening. the emphasis is on zuko realizing what azula is doing JUST in the nick of time (something all characters struggle to do, but he, in particular, has struggled not to fall for azula’s past manipulations) and moving more quickly than lightning to take the hit instead of katara. the emphasis is on the fact that despite zuko, in the past, struggling to figure out what was right or wrong, here he didn’t hesitate for one second. there was no chance of that lightning ever reaching katara as soon as zuko understood what was happening and that matters!!

(i also hate it because in the slightly less-jokey crowd, it seems like a tacit implication that katara and/or zuko is stupid for not realizing she could just move out of the way when that’s not the point!)

#even if the scene WAS happening more slowly in real time also. people very commonly have freeze responses in life-threatening or traumatic #situations #and i don’t really like the implications of making fun of that #i GET that it’s mostly a joke i just. can’t help going grrrr about it #fandom critical #atla #zutara #zuko #katara #sozin’s comet #the final agni kai

[cryptar]

yknow i say im a huge multishipper but i wouldnt actually consider myself much of a shipper at all. just open to the idea of trying everything once. the term has typically romantic connotations and follows the assumption that i think, and want, these characters to be good for eachother.

I'm, personally, less interested in the prexisting chemistry than i am in the puzzle of figuring out what differing circumstances could potentially cause two characters who have seemingly nothing in common to become eachothers everything.

This could explain my favorism towards rarepairs and more convoluted dynamics, and my aversion to popular, fluffy pairings that have already been explored a thousand times over, there's no work for me to do there.

Not to mention that when a ship becomes too popular it starts cannibalising itself, and lots of good, interesting characterisations are lost in the sea of people bending characters into pre-orchestrated, saccharine dynamics. alot of which are usually downright fetishy in nature, particularly in mlm pairings.

I mean i would say being able to get ooc and self indulgent is downright mandatory for making a good fic, but there's only so many times i have to read a fic about a big, overprotective, manly-man top who does all the work and the shy, small, swoony, softhearted femme-wifey-bottom before it starts to just be lazy.

I actively have to go out of my way to search 'switch' tags if i want true-to-the-character, mutual emotional reciprocation. which i really, really shouldn't have to do as an ace person who actively skips through nsfw.

And it's not that popular wlw pairings aren't guilty of these problems aswell, but those tend to lean more into the 'soft lesbians who can do no wrong' stereotype, which always completely (butch)ers all nuisance that makes the ship worth shipping in the first place.

As well as that's if they're even the focus of the story at all and aren't just shoved to the side by the main mlm couple. mlw pairings can be culpable of both these things, with the added risk that you find out the author made a twitter post with the characters in front of the 'super straight' flag.

Though i also wonder if me being aspec plays any part as again; im not as interested in the romantic aspects as i am in the possible hurdles they may face throughout the potential relationship.

Anyone else feel like this?

#though its not that i hate popular ships. #ill read anything if i find it interesting #cryptic ramblings #ship discourse (but not really) #fandom critical #fandom crit #fandom #this is about fandom and shipping culture in general but some places i see this in are #homestuck #genshin impact #zhongchi #davekat #dirkjake #ittogorou #kavetham #< these are ships i actually quite like. im just not too fond of the fanon characterizations of #dirkjake has gotten far better over the years though #if you have any more leave them in the tags #yknow for someone who hates discourse i sure do talk about it alot #in my defense it's the people who get really pressed over their pairings #and become aggressive at differing opinions that I don't like #oh and #neuvifuri #kazuscara #longpost #xiaoven #thomato #kaebedo #chiscara

[densitywell]

"Ashton, you're so special." "I know. That's why I'm fighting for you. It's because you are fucking special, and we all know it."

#critical role #ashton greymoore #imogen temult #bells hells #c3 #cr #crposting #this was originally a parents thing and then i accidentally fell into a whole other set of imogenashton parallels. they make me insane. #and like as we seemingly approach the truth of the reilora and predathos and ruidis and what imogen's connection to it all actually means #i have been thinking a lot about the framing of these things in game vs the assumptions of what it means by fandom #but this is more of a 'damn really makes u think' post as opposed to an attempt to reach a conclusion on that. #bc damn it really makes u think. #long post / #you're so special

[captainofthetidesbreath]

on some level, you're all kind of lucky I don't talk more about what I think Fjord and Jester's sex life is like

on another level, you're all kind of unlucky I don't talk more about what I think Fjord and Jester's sex life is like

#I have a whole system of thoughts about this #I maintain that they have some of THE nastiest sex in the Nein and that only the Brenattos really can compete there #I think Fjord and Jester have a negotiation list longer than many in the fandom think it is lmao #I believe they're willing to try most things at least once more than some of the other couples (again only Brenattos really compete there) #(relatedly I personally think the other two couples are way more vanilla than the fandom thinks they are) #I also maintain that they have really complex roleplay scenarios that take all day and have a long list of them #Like in my mind Fjord and Jester are that one post about Craig and Weisz #I also fully believe Fjord and Jester love that thing where they go to a bar separately to pretend to be strangers and pick one another up #but with the added thing of disguise self and they have to flirt around to find one another #Critical Role things

[let-roman-bite-someone]

btw i really really hope that janus's current characterization, with the wine and sass, is just there for the more light-hearted episodes, and that thomas hasn't forgotten the nuance behind his character.

#i do not want to pressure thomas or tell him how to play his own character #but i think with joan's absence they're clearly struggling to accurately portray some of the sides #joan was a huge part of their characterization and writing #i think that's the main reason for a lot of the changes in the recent tss videos #i can understand that their absence can be a bit daunting #i'm okay with it in the more jokish episodes like„ whatever #i'm not super happy about it but also the other sides also tend to be a bit stereotyped when the episodes aren't that deep #but i REALLY hope they go back to svs era janus because that was peak #and it's not like the current characterization is character development or anything #it's just.. fanservice honestly #i feel like part of the reason could be the overwhelming amount of pressure that thomas has been recieving from the fandom #*side eye to THAT part of the fandom* #but i really hope they actually do some good writing for janus in the future episodes #and not rely too much on the writers room and headcanons #anyway this has been my rant #sanders sides #thomas sanders #tss #sasi #thomas sanders sides #janus sanders #sanders sides critical

[nientedal]

On Constructive Criticism.

Hey friends. You ever want to leave a critique on a fic, and the author says they like constructive criticism/"concrit," but then you leave your critique and you try to make it complimentary but the author still seems less than thrilled with you? You may have missed the point of "constructive!" Don't feel bad, you aren't alone. Took me until I started writing and receiving feedback to really figure it out.

The key to remember is, "constructive" doesn't mean "nice." It doesn't mean phrasing gently, or doing a compliment sandwich (although those are fine things to do as well). "Constructive" feedback is feedback that would make the story as the author has already written it stronger.

"The execution of this character's decision to do XYZ felt a little bit out of nowhere, to me. Was that your intent? It didn't seem like it was meant to be a big twist, either. Maybe some extra foreshadowing would make it stronger, or some shock on the part of the other characters." THAT'S constructive criticism.

This is NOT constructive criticism: "This character doing XYZ thing really doesn't make for as strong a story as it could. I think he should have done NQD thing, instead. That would have been better."

The first example offers some ideas on how to help a character's decision land better when the reader couldn't tell what the author's intent was. It's possible the reader didn't like the decision and that's why they noticed - maybe some foreshadowing would have helped them accept it better, or some indication that it was meant to be shocking would have validated the reader's surprise & displeasure. But, crucially, the reader did not suggest anything that would require a massive rewrite. Some tweaking, sure, maybe the addition of a few paragraphs. But not a change to the character's decision as a whole, the way the second example suggested. The second example does describe something the reader thinks would make for a stronger story...but it is not something that would make THIS story stronger. It is describing a different story than the one the author has already written so far, so it's just plain ol' criticism. Constructive criticism makes the existing story stronger.

That's the difference. You aren't workshopping. You are commenting on something that is already being written, that is already planned to the point where someone is already posting it. There is a BIG DIFFERENCE between workshopping a story and simply giving concrit! Unless the author has specifically asked for workshop-style help, offering things to do differently from what was already written is worse than useless. Don't.

Rule of thumb: if what you're saying can be boiled down to "I think this cake would be better if it was pie," say something else. The cake is not pie. It's not GOING to be pie. I didn't ask what you think I should bake, I put cake on the table and asked what you thought of this cake. Tell me what would make THIS cake better. Not the pie you were thinking of, and not a different cake you might have liked better. THIS CAKE.

#writing #constructive criticism #concrit #fanfic #fandom #@ my fellow authors... it's also important for us to remember that even constructive feedback isn't always right #maybe the reader simply missed the foreshadowing that was there #maybe they just really really hated the character's decision and would have needed way more foreshadowing in order to accept it #but your other readers were fine #take everything with a grain of salt; don't jump to change things just because someone else thinks you should #*is* this how you want to write it? yes? then leave it #it's fine #someone not liking your work doesn't mean you should change it #just like someone getting upset when you say No doesn't mean you should have said Yes

[thecruellestmonth]

Do you guys really believe that killing is the singular bad thing that cops do?

Or even that killing is the most frequent bad thing that cops do?

Are you saying that if cops didn't kill, then they'd be the same as Batman? Because then you're suggesting that effectively Batman already is a cop, with the exception that he hasn't killed (just like the majority of U.S. cops, who have never once shot or killed anybody).

I'm a bit worried to see opinions suggesting that only killing is wrong—and that violence, stalking, and humiliation are okay. In real-life, police commit countless acts of those "little" abuses, terrorizing entire communities, before they murder anybody.

Invading people's privacy is wrong. Hurting people to the point of hospitalization is wrong. Forcibly drugging people is wrong. Putting people in cages is wrong. Torture and "enhanced interrogation" are wrong. Ambushing people in their homes and safe places is wrong. Keeping inexhaustible wealth is wrong.

Superhero comics are power fantasies. Not all fantasies need to reflect our ideology in reality. But once you apply your real-life values to fiction, once you decide that fiction showcases exemplary real-life ideology—then your praise for Batman's ideology does become a worrying reflection of your real-life understanding of social issues.

#copaganda #Bruce Wayne critical #GCPD #fandom discourse #Batman copaganda #police brutality cw #Almost sorry to drag serious discussion of copaganda into ridiculous superhero comics but I swear the other guys started it first... #To be clear I'm completely disinterested in condemning or interrogating Bruce over his personal choice not to kill. #But I am so fascinated in how he justifies his own use of violence and privilege!!! So very very fascinated!! #Once again: LESLIE THOMPKINS IS RIGHT. #Actually I'm not gonna tag this post as @nti Bruce W@yne--because really I enjoy canon Bruce a hell of a lot more than his stans do lol. #Sorry but Batman isn't a darling anti-cop revolutionary. If he were then he'd get in line behind Green Arrow and like the Invisibles. #I mean maybe The Audio Adventures version is anti cop but still in a free-market libertarian power fantasy kind of way if you can dig that. #violence mention cw #murder mention cw #fandom drama #This is why Cheer doesn't work because Red Hood realizes 'Oh I don't want kids to lose their parents like I lost mine-- #--therefore I won't murder anymore. It's time to put my faith in the system. 👼👼👼' #Jason sweetie... you lost your father firstly to criminalization and incarceration for property crime. #You lost your mother to poverty and addiction. You are actually not like Batdaddy and your trauma is not a mere echo of his trauma. #Batman discourse

[owlyflufff]

haikyu's dumpster batte is only going to be around 1 hour and 24 minutes, oh it's genuinely bokuakaover

#knowing that we're likely not going to get an ova too is painful <//3 #m sorry to go off on a bit of a tangent #but I can't help but feel bitter that an actually good series with coherence and amazing characters just gets treated like this #and series like jjk and demon slayer get to have such good adaptations? #I don't hate both series btw as I watch them myself but even I have more criticisms in their story and charas compared to hq #jjk at this rate is being carried by satosugu shippers and popularity the story honestly is slowly losing substance :'DD #and it's disappointing such a series manages to get to have a consistent adaptation vs a good and inspiring story #which is why I can't help but feel <//3 whenever ppl rant about the jjk animation cause it's better than the hq treatment TvT #don't get me started on demon slayer I have mixed feelings about that series as well but I love it for what it's worth xD #and if people say the hq fandom is being bitter or biased isn't it justifiable? #a consistent and amazing narrative gets butchered me thinks people have a right to feel the way they do #naturally the fandom is not downplaying the efforts of the animators and voice actors but we also have a right to feel the way we do #we feel the way we do out of genuine love for a series that inspired and helped us so much #it's just so unfair TvT #m terribly sorry again for ranting and dropping negativity but I feel really disheartened about this news #and not simply cause ofc we won't get the bokuaka match #but also because my favorite series doesn't deserve this #eli rambles #bokuaka #haikyu #haikyuu #haikyu!! #hq

[fandoms-and-salt]

The main problem with Ruby gillman movie is that it sends a message that "bigotry is actually justified and your racist grandparents are right". The second, closely related problem is it's villain.

Firstly, if we look at the film without the spoiler-y marketing, Chelsea/Neressa is written as a twist villain. Like Hans Frozen type twist villain, with little foreshadowing and those "sympathetic" scenes that actually don't amount to anything and might just as well be a lie. Even with the marketing, i think the movie still tricked people into thinking that Chelsea might be a misunderstood villain or have a redemption arc or what not. And twist villains could work well, usually if their turn to villainy makes sense with their preestablished goals and personality (eg. Disney's Atlantis). Or a liar villain could work well if the audience knows of their malicious plans, but the heroes stay in the dark (eg. Scar from Lion King). In general, if the twist or reveal makes the story/conflict less interesting and/or didn't have proper foreshadowing, viewers are bound to dislike it.

Secondly, Chelsea is our only mermaid. And she is, well, evil. It would have been better if we had other good mermaid characters, but she is the only one, which, coupled with Gramamah's generous description of mermaids, makes it seem like all mermaids are as evil as she is.

Thirdly, yes, stories for young children about pure good fighting pure evil are generally fine, it teaches them right and wrong, so they can later consume media with more complex lessons. But in those stories the good guys are usually the underdogs fighting an oppressive evil. In mermaid vs kraken conflict, it's actually mermaids who are at a disadvantage. Krakens are big rulers ("protectors") of the ocean with superpowers. The characters themselves admit that Granmamah is a warlord. Mermaids are small, weak and need a magic trident to even match the power of krakens. Their only "advantage" is being popular with humans, while krakens are feared and hated, but humans have no effect on the story or the conflict. If the story was that mermaids are actually more powerful rulers of the ocean, or the kraken family were the just rules but got conquered/overthrown by evil mermaids, or if both species were of equal power ruling their own parts of the ocean and mermaids decided to go and conquer the peaceful kraken kingdom. Then the good vs evil conflict would have looked less like "how dare these evil inferior minorities challenge the rule of our superior race".

Speaking of which. Ruby's first instinct, even after finding out that "mermaids are actually evil" from her granma, is to judge Chelsea as her own person and assume that mermaids can't be actually evil. Which is, you know, a pretty fair and mature response. When she hears that mermaids suffer from terrible conditions, she actively tries to fight what she sees as injustice. But what lesson does she learn? That she should never question her elders, since they do know better. The story is fighting for the status quo to stay the same, while Ruby is punished to trying to change and improve it.

That's all i can say for now. Other complaints i have are:

humans are virtually useless to the story (including the love interest, tho he had some cute moments), they are just damsels-in-distress and trophies for Ruby to save and get approval from. This movie just as well could happen all under the sea with some minor tweaks.

The human designs are weird and uncanny. Otherwise the visuals are fine.

Ruby's arc is kind of all over the place with her main arc being the classic "believe in yourself", which she mainly gains through hanging out with Chelsea. But isn't Chelsea supposed to be the villain who "leads Ruby astray" from being a good citizen who is not skipping school, lying to her mom or ignoring her friends and crush? Make it make sense, movie.

#for the record i don't really care for Chelsea/Ruby ship (especially after that reveal) #or Chelsea having a “misunderstood mean girl” redemption arc that fandoms obsess over for some reason #sapphic fishgirls would be nice but i care about a good story more #damn that's a long post #ruby gillman teenage kraken #chelsea van der zee #ruby gillman critical #i guess #lovin rambles

[pocketgalaxies]

hi! seeing you during all this ep95 mess has been a breath of fresh air. you seem to have a really firm grasp of canon so I wanted to ask what you think of the recent discord message from Liam where he says Orym didn't know that Laudna was under Delilah's influence when she killed Bor'dor? I watched the clip from 4SD, & it's pretty clear that Liam says Orym understood Laudna was opening the door for Delilah when he encouraged her to kill Bor'dor & even says "we'll need that." But the Discord message seems to walk that back. It's been super frustrating being accused of vilifying Orym or infantilizing Laudna for repeating what Liam himself said. I just don't really know how to reconcile these two statements from Liam & it has me a bit confused on Orym's character.

hi anon, thank you!

this turned into a much longer one than i was expecting dfksjdkfs

so last week i posted this Really Long Ask about the whole discussion, if you want to take a look. but i intentionally didn't bring up liam's discord message because you're right! it seemed contradictory to something that was stated in the past, which was confusing

honestly i think the most realistic answer is that liam probably didn't mean for what he said on 4SD to be understood as such a strong and maybe even polarizing character choice. i think a lot of us heard it as "orym sees delilah as a useful/necessary asset that outweighs what might happen to laudna afterward." particularly because he framed it as something that made the whole situation "even creepier," and during that same convo, marisha was emphasizing the psychological impact that killing bor'dor had on laudna. it's a strong stance and it reflects what orym is doing to himself (handing his endgame over to the questionably fickle nana morri to increase their chances of success against ludinus)

but i suppose liam's clarification suggests that he meant it in a softer, more practically level-headed way, like "orym knew he couldn't do a whole lot about delilah's return but he also thought it could have benefits," or something along those lines. they're obviously two hugely different interpretations with pretty big implications on how we understand orym's relationship with laudna

i'm not a connoisseur of orym's character by ANY means so i can't confidently tell you what the change might mean from a narrative perspective, but i personally still prefer the former stronger stance. because i think it raises interesting questions about how orym views his own place in this war and whether or not it's valid for him to (intentionally or subconsciously) project that placement onto the other party members. is it okay for orym to expect the same level of personal sacrifice from laudna, or imogen with predathos (a whole separate can of worms), or anyone else? is it safe? etc etc. but maybe liam doesn't want to go in that direction, or maybe he does but just not in the way we expect, i don't know! only time will tell!

also regardless of what he meant, i think it's important to acknowledge that it's really easy and completely understandable to feel like he was walking something back. that episode of 4SD was almost a whole year ago! many of us built that statement into our perception and understanding of orym's character for a long time, so it's totally valid to go "wait what the fuck???" when liam suddenly pops into the discord to say that's not what he meant. those feelings are valid and real! especially when discourse can already make you question your own intelligence and your personal interpretations of a story, having that pillar, as big or small as it might've been in your mind, knocked over can be really jarring. you are very much not alone in that, and it's okay!!

#hope this helps? #anonymous #ask #answered #critical role #cr3 #cr fandom #cr negativity #cr meta #nova shh #orym cr #liam o'brien #for the record i think the wording of his discord message is super flimsy compared to what he said on 4SD #which only made it easier for me to feel like he was just sticking his nose in discourse to try and defend his character #which - during what was very clearly taking shape as an orym vs. laudna argument - made me feel like liam was shitting on my feelings #i'm OBVIOUSLY not saying that's what his intentions were but i can't logic my way out of my initial rage reaction to a discord screenshot #and it just illustrates the dangers of cast members directly involving themselves in fandom discourse #which i kinda thought the cast maybe wasn't ever ever gonna do again....after c1 reddit....after bowlgate.......etc....... #saying vaguely defensive stuff when two parts of a fandom are at each other's throats only adds fuel to the fire. it clears up fuck all #and it gives people more reasons to agree or disagree with each other and point to your vague-ass message as evidence #so really. not that you asked but. i really think he shouldn't have said it lmao. bc ppl got Even Nastier after he did #¯\_(ツ)_/¯ it's out there now! what can you do!