#summer series

[the-conversation-pod]

Adult Swim

We originally planned to talk about Step by Step during Work, Bitch, and Nini hadn't planned to watch La Pluie until the fall. However, because all of us refused to give up on La Pluie, Nini joined us around episode 8. Both of these shows inspired more writing than we've seen since the heyday of Bad Buddy or I Told Sunset About You. Surface-level engagement was all-but-impossible with either of these shows, and honestly wrung us out more than we were expecting.

It's time for the kids to get out of the pool for the grown folks to talk as Ben and Nini open their third eyes and discuss Step by Step and La Pluie.

Listen on Apple Podcasts!

Listen on Google Podcasts!

Timestamps

The timestamps will now correspond to chapters on Spotify for easier navigation.

0:00 - Welcome 1:15 - Intro 2:08 - Step by Step 4:40 - Step by Step: A Moment of Simping 8:40 - Step by Step: Big Themes 16:52 - Step by Step: The Romance 25:45 - Step by Step: Story Execution 50:25 - Step by Step: Where are we on Tee Bundit? 53:10 - La Pluie 57:50 - La Pluie: The Soulmate Myth 1:08:22 - La Pluie: Lomfon is Rude! 1:13:30 - La Pluie: Tai Also Deserves Some Smoke 1:18:26 - La Pluie: Tai’s Dad Read as Queer 1:20:48 - La Pluie: The Romance 1:32:06 - La Pluie: Depiction of Male Anger 1:35:50 - La Pluie: Treatment of Nara 1:40:47 - La Pluie: The Side Characters 1:44:02 - La Pluie: Sequel Potential 1:46:01 - Outro

The Conversation: Now With Transcripts!

We received an accessibility request to include transcripts for the podcast. We are working with @ginnymoonbeam on providing the transcripts and @lurkingshan as an editor and proofreader.

We will endeavor to make the transcripts available when the episodes launch, and it is our goal to make them available for past episodes. When transcripts are available, we will attach them to the episode post (like this one) and put the transcript behind a Read More cut to cut down on scrolling.

Please send our volunteers your thanks!

0:00 - Welcome

Nini

Hello, hello! Your QL fandom aunty and uncle are here with giant sunglasses, brown liquor in a flask, a folded five-dollar bill to slip into your hand when no one is looking, lukewarm takes, occasional rides on the discourse, deep dives into artistry and the industry.

Ben

Lots of simping! I’m Ben.

Nini

I’m Nini.

Ben

And this is The Conversation. About once a season, we plan to swan in and shoot the shit on faves, flops, and trends that we’ve been noticing in the BL, GL, or QL Industry. Between seasons, you can find us typing way too many words on Tumblr.

1:15 - Intro

Nini

Hey Ben, what are we talking about tonight?

Ben

Tonight it's time for Adult Swim. Kids: out of the pool! This season led to so much more writing and meta than we've seen in a really long time. There was so much to say about both of these shows that we ended up needing to move both of these shows out of separate episodes and just shove them into one. 

Tonight we will be discussing Step by Step and La Pluie, and then we'll return with you all at the end with some final thoughts. Nini and I are bracing for this, because we have a lot to say to each other. [laughs]

Nini

This is gonna be round two of fight night apparently, not on everything but on some things. So you guys stay tuned and we'll see you at the end!

2:08 - Step by Step

Nini

Okay, Ben this time I got my eye black on for you. So let's talk Step by Step. Tell the people, what is Step by Step about?

Ben

Step by Step is a workplace drama that centers around a young man named Pat, who is maybe 25 — there was some confusion about that at the end?

Nini

Shade!

Ben

…who is returning to Thailand after completing some of his graduate studies, and is now working at a large corporation inside of an office tower. He is the low man on the totem pole in the sort of digital division of this corporation, and is having a very difficult time. Very early on, he has a kind of flirty interaction with the largest man who has ever existed in BL, and takes a shine to him, but is disappointed when he realizes he's his boss. 

Pat eventually ends up in conflict with his new boss whose name is Jeng…slowly the two of them start to work better together. Jeng ends up putting Pat in charge of a BL advertising project in a mostly queer team, and over the course of the show there ends up becoming this huge misunderstanding between the two of them about whether or not they're on a romantic arc, as the show is also unpacking a lot of really huge themes about where queer people do or don't fit in corporate structures that are more than willing to profit off of them, as Pat and Jeng try to figure out what their relationship is supposed to be.

Nini

I think that was a very fair précis of the plot of Step by Step.

Ben

If you're listening to us and you've watched Step by Step, you may be familiar with the fact that…reactions to the last arc of this show were mixed, to put it mildly. Nini and I ended up falling on opposite sides of the fence on this one, so we have a lot to unpack. 

4:40 - Step by Step: A Moment of Simping

Ben

I'm [gonna] let you have this part first: I want you to just go ahead and have your little fun before we get into the big stuff. We can begin with talking about Man Trisanu and how much you really enjoyed his performance.

Nini

His performance, yes, but before we get to his performance…I mean we say in the intro that there is lots of simping on this show, and I've been listening to our old episodes: we haven't simped nearly enough? So I'm just gonna do like a quick two minutes of absolute simping for Man Trisanu, because my god that man is large. That man is so large that for like the first three episodes, every time he came on screen, like my brain made like the boinga boinga boinga sound, like I could not actually focus [laughs] on what was happening — I had to watch episodes multiple times…

Ben

[laughs] She’s just posting awooga gifs in the chat all the time.

Nini

If I was the kind of person who would get embarrassed by this stuff I would have been embarrassed by the way I behaved. But I don't get embarrassed by this stuff, so I wasn't embarrassed by the way that I behaved looking at this man [laughs]...throughout, but especially in the first three episodes. I just kept staring at him. And then as we got like further and further into the show it was very clear that he's also a good actor, so I was invested in the character emotionally? But that also did not stop the fwarh noises in my brain. The man is large. And he's large and he's attractive. And he's large and he's attractive and he's talented. That's basically my kryptonite. 

That doesn't mean that I cannot be fair about the show—there are things that I'm gonna say about the show that are not complimentary, even though in the end—I'm just like skipping to the part where I score it, I gave it a 9—there are problems with the show, do not get me wrong. But overall, I found it incredibly enjoyable. And I can't lie to you: Man Trisanu was part of why I found it enjoyable. Not just because he is large and attractive but also because he is quite a good actor. Okay, so I got my yah yahs out.

Ben

Solid 20% of the chat is just Nini going: “THAT MAN IS BIG!”

[both laugh]

Nini

He’s a biggun! [both laugh] At one point I definitely just sent a voice message that said “Timberrrrr!”

Ben

It’s like, it would be Tuesday and everybody's in the chat just, “Lorge.” [laughs]

Ben

In terms of simping, I really like Ben Bunyapol’s work in this one. Nini and I tend to fall on opposite sides of the fence when it comes to…the guys we're attracted to in these shows? Unsurprisingly, she was super into Man and all of his work; I really liked a lot of stuff Ben was doing, and I like Nini's commentary that Ben is definitely someone's problem, right now.

Nini

Oh my god, somebody is staring at the ceiling up at night, like, thinking about Ben Bunyapol because that boy is…I mean, not my style, but I can appreciate good lookin’, I can. That is somebody's problem.

Ben

I really like what he was playing with in this. I really—we'll get into this when we talk about the queer themes in this—I really like the specific type of queerness he portrayed in this. And I know that must have been really difficult to hold with everything else he was doing on the show.

Nini

I concur, he also showed some talent. There’s quite a few newbies in this cast, Ben and Man are both newbies, and you see a little bit of that, but mostly they, I think they acquitted themselves very well.

8:40 -  Step by Step: Big Themes

Ben

Since we're disclosing our ratings early in this one: as you all know, Nini gives me a lot of shit on this show about how friendly I am to shows with my scoring? I gave this show a 7.5, because I think the problems in this show make it hard to recommend to people. And the more homework I feel like I have to give people, or pamphlets I have to hand out before they start watching, the harder it is for me to recommend. 

However, there are a lot of things to talk about in the show I think are good. And I think because it's Tee Bundit, and we have to talk about how much the sort of…irritated version of queerness that he's carrying around in his work comes through in his stuff? Think we should start with the big themes, because that's what he clearly cared about the most. So Nini, as someone who is thrilled with this show: what are the big themes you think that Tee is going for this time?

Nini

I mean, Tee is a guy who, kind of hits on the same themes in most of his work? And the themes that he likes to hit on are around like, queerness and capitalism, or like around the monetization of queerness and sort of juxtaposing it against the way that queer people are just kind of suffocating under this fog of homophobia. So that's like one of the things that he definitely gets into in this show, like all his other shows. 

Another thing that Tee is very into is playing with inside and outside, like perceptions of queer people and how queer people see themselves versus how the world sees them? I think that's a big thing. He loves a family dynamic where everybody knows but nobody says anything, that's another big theme that he's playing with in this. These are the things that show up over and over again in his work, that I tend to respond to. I find it really legible, so I quite enjoy it. 

What about you? What kinds of themes did you pick up on?

Ben

The big ideas, like core statements that I can read from this is that: corporations are more than willing to profit off of queer people. They absolutely want to use our talents, our social skills, our managerial skills, and our relationships as well as our lives…to sell shit. But they don't actually want us, particularly in positions of leadership. 

Another thing that comes through very clearly is that queer people cannot experience queer joy in environments that demand a very rigid form of conformity. And also, that everything that queer people want for themselves, including their joy, is not something you can have on the timeline of BL. It's going to take literally years for you to find your happiness. Which is so sad!

Nini

One of the things that I think we had discussed a little bit but didn't really delve into is that you feel a cynicism emanating off of Tee that you kind of don't like? I don't know if you wanted to get a little bit more into that, because we didn't really, like, discuss that too much.

Ben

Tee Bundit clearly—oh, there's a man I could simp for. [laughs] I think that man is very pretty, and I like how fucking angry he is all the time. [both laugh] 

So, Tee is a director who has a really strong eye. Don't know that he's found an editor who works well with him yet. Or has found a really good screenwriting team to hang out with? But he has a really strong eye, and he very clearly hated being on the TharnType set. That comes through so loudly in Lovely Writer, and you can see that this has affected the way he looks at being an adult professional in so many ways. 

Pat is so unhappy in this show. He's so stressed. And Jeng is also so unhappy, because he's so bottled up. It gets a little bit lost sometimes, how specifically pissed off Pat is about everything that's being thrown at him and expected of him. And you can feel that with Tee, that he has to…play to the proclivities of shipping culture, which he clearly despises.

Nini

He's made two shows about it now.

Ben

Quick aside about this, Tee leveled some I think fair criticism of BL as an industry, in that it is profiting off of the appearance of relationships of queer people, but they're all inherently fake, and they're meant to be fake. And apparently a certain set of fans did not agree or like that their ship was used as the example of this, and caused such a stink that they were forced to edit the episode and remove that commentary. And I don't know if this impacted later commentary that may have been in the show. I do not think it would have made the show more legible than it is? But Tee is just so irritated about the inescapability of heteronormativity in his professional life. 

You see this for Pat, who doesn't allow himself to even perceive Jeng as someone he could be with, because of the age difference, the class difference, the work difference…and the way that they are queer is very different from each other. You see this with Chot, who seems to be an incredibly talented individual, but is not someone apparently considered for middle to upper management in any way? You've got this with Jaab where he's just like ‘yeah I'm not playing that. I got money, I'm gonna do whatever the hell I want.’ 

It's so frustrating, because in this show towards the end sequence where they ask Pat to come back for one more ride to try and save this stupid department. They assemble a little team together of queers or queer-friendly people and they end up using everyone's queer adjacent skills in some way shape or form to sell, like, fucking gas stations? [laughs] So they end up having Pat's formerly shitty superior write like, a BL story about looking for, like, a specific fucking juice at the fucking gas station, so that Jaab can very publicly run around on Facebook looking for Jen, the side character he's also pursuing. And then to help pimp this out, they ask Pat to call his ex, who he doesn't want to engage with on this, to help sell this shit—who was also forced to go back into the closet so that he could pretend to be gay with his BL co-star. Which is insane.

Nini

Like when you say it out loud it's like, the levels of bullshit, like Tee is very much about piling on the bullshit. And he's like doing it and pointing to the audience and saying, ‘Look at this! Ain't this some shit? This is the kind of shit that we gotta deal with on the regular!’

Ben

I'm not even done! The head of the company baited them by stripping their marketing budget because he knew his son would use his own money to save this: creating a division between the gays because of lack of loyalty and such. And so like, that comes through fairly loudly. 

16:52 - Step by Step: The Romance

Ben

Part of where the struggle kicks in for me with this show is honestly with Pat and Jeng. Like, I have really strong positive feelings about Pat as a character, as an individual, and I have an incredible amount of feelings for Jeng as an individual—and I want to elaborate on those—but like Pat and Jeng as a unit, I feel, was super frustrating and really disappointing in this show, in a way that felt kind of pissy from Tee? Like I feel like…they don't feel satisfying on purpose. And that doesn't sit right with me, because of genre conventions and expectations. 

I'll let you talk about Pat and Jeng, because I think you feel a lot better about them than I did.

Nini

Yeah, because I think I had different expectations. I definitely took in at the beginning, or before the beginning of the show, some of the stuff around the show where Tee was very clearly saying this isn't a romance. And as we sort of went through the show, I started to understand what he meant by saying that. I think Tee has a, like a complicated relationship with BL, that much is obvious, and I think in a way, the story that he wanted to tell here—he almost resented a little bit, having to use the romance to tell the story. And it, it shows up on a metatextual level in terms of some of the themes and some of the story points and plot points running throughout the show. He's like, can’t I just tell this story? Why do they have to, like, make out? 

There is a tension there, there is a dissonance there. So it's not that I don't understand the problem that people had with it; I understand it entirely. But I was just vibin’. Because…I saw all of that as like, yeah, whatever Tee, like I see exactly what you're saying, but you also put this in here anyway, so I'm gonna enjoy the parts of this that you did put in here. That was my way of dealing with it, and that's why I really enjoyed it—because what he did put in there, for me, between Pat and Jeng? It resonated, because at first it was so much about ‘well this thing can't be and here are all the reasons that this thing can't be.’ It's clear that, like, Jeng is just falling deeper and deeper and deeper, and Pat is just like, I can't, I can't even hear that noise—to the point that he literally drowned the noise out in his own head. To the point where like Jeng actually had to tell him basically, ‘hi, I am actually hitting on you.’ And that, like, it came at the end of like a long tail because also Jeng's very aware that it's, like, an ethical minefield to be hitting on Pat because Pat works for him. So it's just like a swarm of things coming together, in a way that I personally enjoy? 

And I, I’ll acknowledge that my enjoyment of this show is extremely personal to just the kind of bitch I am. I just like this kind of, like, dynamics? I like this kind of exceedingly complicated and, ‘this actually is kind of a gordian knot, but still, through that all, I feel the way I feel and you feel the way you feel, and if we could just like figure some of this other shit out—and we're gonna fuck up figuring this other shit out for a while—then it would be solid, it would be golden.’ But like I said, I can completely understand why people wouldn't rock with that. It's dissonant, it's incredibly dissonant, I’m fully aware of that. But I was vibin’. That's just how I feel about it.

Ben

My issue is that the show doesn't say that. And we have to take that as the acceptable read to move on. Like, all of the ideas about how corporate life is evil for queer people are loud themes exemplified through the characters. I was consistently frustrated with Tee in this particular outing, because important gay decisions happen off screen, and that pissed me off. So much of his idea is about how queer people don't get to make choices—and he doesn't show the queer people making the choices they can make. 

Like for example, they get together and Pat and Jeng don't discuss what being at work is going to look like for them? Which was so irritating for me, because they don't really know each other? And like I'm totally fine with two bitches just being like, ‘let's just fuck about it for a little while and enjoy this ride while we go.’ But like, they don't say that! Like, we have to take that as meaning, and it irritates me, because he's not subtle about his other shit. It feels a little bit tacked on, because you're supposed to just understand this. 

Like—I took that Jeng was broken. I wrote a whole fucking piece about it, about how broken Jeng was by being in the closet as he is, because he lives in a big ass closet. Like his closet was so big I didn't even realize it was a closet, I thought it was an exercise room. No, it's his fucking closet. He lives there, that's insane. But like Pat and Jeng get together, and they don't discuss what being at work is going to be like for them. We don't really see their romance function at all, and they don't give us a sense of the two of them functioning as a pair until the story is over? And that irritates me because what the fuck are they fighting for? Like Jeng is explicitly fighting for the idea of Pat, and Pat is explicitly frustrated that Jeng is trying to manipulate him into the version of Pat that Jeng would prefer him to be. And that is not really confronted in this show. I can't be happy about these two getting together because that particular tension point is just submerged. It isn't dealt with, it's just shoved out of the way. That would have been okay, ‘we're just going to bury this’ is an okay choice, but it's a choice that feels like it happened off screen. 

It's frustrating because Pat's choice to break up with the MLM big tall, and his choice to break up with Put happen on screen. Pat processing his complicated post-breakup feelings with Put is executed beautifully on screen. We don't really get a functional version of Pat and Jeng on screen, and it irked me, but it low-key makes me sad, because what if Tee doesn't have enough to pull from in himself to do that properly? But he can handle, like, the painful shit and the breakup shit really well. Like that makes me sad for him…but, like, it irritates me as a viewer. If the desire to be a partner to Pat, and to change because Pat asked him to, is literally the driving force that moves Jeng through the plot—that is text—I hate that when he gets together with Pat, none of the talking about that occurs at all.

Nini

See I had a completely different reaction to that, because to me, from the time that all of that, like, wasn't happening, and then I saw the way that the plot was going, I was just like ‘oh it's a false start.’ That all makes sense to me, like the fact that Jeng spent all this time basically sweatin’ Pat, and finally, like okay, he gets somewhere, he doesn't want to confront the problems. He doesn't want to confront the problems, and Pat doesn't really want to confront the problems because Pat is just, ‘this man wants me, I want this man.’ Like, they don't talk about the issues. They get giddy on each other, they get high, nose wide open, and they don't want to confront the bad shit. So they don't talk about it. It's a false start. They don't talk about it, they don't talk about the fact that they don't really know each other, they don't talk about anything that matters…that to me tells me everything. There's a deep and intense infatuation happening there. And they're burying their heads in the sand about a lot. To me that's deliberate, and that's why it ends up falling apart. It works for me on a narrative level. 

25:45 - Step by Step: Story Execution

Nini

I think part of the frustration as well—and I think here we're going to start getting into, like, some of the structural issues—because I said that I did have criticisms about this show. And one of the criticisms that I continuously had was that this show feels like it was edited by monkeys on crack cocaine. There is a lack of a certain amount of cohesiveness to the editing, that makes it hard to follow some of what's happening. Like you have to sit with it and like really train your brain and do one, two, three passes at it, to be like ‘oh yeah, that's what was happening, that's what was happening, that's what was happening.’ So I do take that criticism. I absolutely do take that criticism of the show and I agree with it. That the graph of the show, like the way that it was structured in terms of when the pivot point happens—because it happens almost towards the end—I can see where the frustration comes from, absolutely.

Ben

There's so much in this show that is interesting, but is delivered so haphazardly that you have to work for it. Like, the only useful read I got about the hets and their role in this, was to model what showing up and speaking out looks like versus what sitting on your hands and not saying something looks like. With Khanun and Beam, and their attraction to Ae—who has a baby in a hilariously inaccurate birthing scene…

Nini

[laughs] I’m sorry, you said the birthing scene and I had to crack up, like that was the most like, hand wavy like, ‘I'm a gay man, I don't know how these things work’—like ‘she had a baby, like make it like—do whatever you think having a baby looks like, it's fine, moving on’ [laughs]

Ben

She's pushing the baby! And everybody’s screaming! And POP! It's out! [laughs]

Nini

I don't know how the baby came out, because she was still wearing her pants. But eeehh, let's leave that to the side for now. [laughs]

Ben

I'm okay with that, because everything else was so silly, I get them just not wanting to ask Zorzo to take her pants off.

Nini

There's a thematic reason that Ae has her baby where she does, how she does, when she does, like there's a thematic and a narrative reason for that. But the scene itself is like one of the most cracked-out things I’ve ever seen in my life. [laughs]

Ben

That's the whole problem with the show, like there are good ideas here but like, I don't feel them. I hate that you have to think so hard to get to them. Normally I'm okay with subtext for these sort of things, but…you have to basically rebuild the moments that are occurring in the show so that you can think about stuff. 

I ended up frustrated with Jeng by the end, because I feel like his arc peters out. Like there's a, a totally fine read on a lot of these things, but it is so…flat for me. It's fine for a show to make you play with the notion of disappointment? But the disappointment feels…petty, if that makes any sense? Like I don't think the disappointment is built into all the thematic structures. It's just built into the effect that the show wants to engender. It feels a little incongruous, and it's really irritating. I don't mind queer cinema making me feel negative emotions and walk out of a theater going ‘damn, bro.’ I just don't like the way this show is going for that, but also pretending that it's not, towards the end.

Nini

Okay, so here's a thing that we don't normally do, but I think would be useful for this show. So, let's fix it. Our mantra around here is generally: you meet the shows where they are. Right? But: is there a version of this show that you like, and what does that version of the show look like?

Ben

A big problem with this show is, they spend way too much time away from the Jian group office environment. The bubble of the Forge project goes on way too fucking long. The reveal in episode, like, 9? That Pat did not know Jeng was gay this whole time? Is really good, but needs to happen, at the very latest, by episode 8. Because it creates this huge compression effect on the back half of the show, that is so fucking irritating for me as a viewer. The Jeng crying and sad shit is great in episode—10, when that occurs? And like he and Pat get together in episode 11, but the gays need a solid ‘we're going to try to make this work’ episode. You have to put us in the interior of these two settling into each other. We need to understand what we have been yearning for for the whole show up to this point, so that we can understand what they're giving up when they've when they sever—it's romance, they gotta break up, you have to put the characters in a position where they have to figure out, ‘can I go back to the person I was and enjoy my life without this person in my life again?’ The answer is no, because this is fucking romance!—But we need to understand what the romance is and what they're going for. 

And all of the development of Pat and Jeng as a couple, that we're supposed to be benefiting from in episode 11 when they're trying to save the stupid little BL project they're working on, feels completely unearned. Yes, I understand that the reason we're not getting payoff is because their relationship is fundamentally flawed as a false start—but it doesn't flag very effectively as one, because we aren't constantly seeing the misfires when they're trying to do stuff romantically together. We need to fully confront the fact that Jeng is brainwashed into thinking that work life integration can work for queer people. It cannot. And we don't get that. So like when they break up, the feeling is like, ‘good, because y'all needed to.’ And not in a satisfying way that another show might have done. We need to move all of the beats from the end of the show back a whole fucking episode. 

Also, the decision for Pat to go off and start his own thing, take Chot and Ae, all happens off screen. This is a huge set of choices! Why is Chot running off to be with this twink? Like sure, he's playing fairy godmother in the whole show, but why does he choose to go with him? The audience is left to just figure that out. But so much of this show is about the difficult and complex choices that queer people have to make to survive in a corporate world that doesn't want us. So yes, we can infer that Chot was also frustrated with all this drama at work, and is more than willing to go work with the very talented, very successful little baby gay who showed up at his job, and go off and they gonna get this paper together. I get it. It's fine, it doesn't track as wrong for Chot to do that—but Chot's choice also matters in a show about how queer choice needs to be respected! And they don't show Chot making the choice. Like, the gay choices happening off screen are egregious to me. They need to be unpacked. If the show is about how our choices aren't respected, why aren't we showing the interior decision-making of the choices we're forced to make?

Nini

I'll definitely take your point about where the pivot point of the story happens. It's one of the critiques of this show that I completely agree with. The critical path of this show—like the throughline?—to me is so clear. What happens though, is that the critical path is sort of impacted by…like a bunch of these little side quests. Whether it is that the side quest is too present or too absent, the milestones are happening slightly off schedule. The way that it's sequenced works for me, but the way that things like lag behind or in front of each other are a little…squiffy. In terms of the way that the story is constructed, in terms of some of the things that you feel that you needed to see, or that would have made the story better to be able to see, rather than having to conjure up yourself…like, I get that, absolutely. I don't disagree with that, I think that is a valid and accurate critique of this show. I live in my head a lot [laughs] and so that didn't bother me enough to ding it, but I understand why it didn't work for you, and for a lot of other people. 

I think it's just for me that…I was fine with getting pulled along by the story, because I was invested, particularly in Jeng. First they got me with Man being, you know, the size of a barn. And then I started actually paying attention, and they got me with Jeng's character. That's where the show, like, managed to string me along the entire way; I got a hook in, and I'm just like ‘okay, this is what I'm going with.’ But none of the things that you and everybody else is saying about the show are wrong. You're all correct. [laughs] You're all correct. I just…enjoyed it.

Ben

I think for me, both places where this show really broke, and where I really disconnected from this show, were in both of the kitchen scenes, which you loved. Like if we could point to two scenes where things break for me as an audience member? It's the speakeasy scene, kitchen scene—throwing food on the ground, kitchen scene—Pat reconciling with Jeng. It ends up becoming a failure point when Jeng resigns from his company—in his Canadian tuxedo —

Nini

Denim on denim y’all!

Ben

[laughs] And he says to his dad, ‘I have dreams.’ And I'm like, ‘girl, what are they? You ain't said shit for the last three goddamn episodes! What are they? Please sir, talk to the camera, I need to know.’ And like we can infer these things, we can project onto him. I can infer that the restaurant is what's important to him. I can infer that food security for the underprivileged is important to him. But for someone who's as plan-oriented as him, it feels a little weird, that this feels like a undercooked and underdeveloped idea for the character, that's just sort of simmering in the back and I'm like, ‘what, did we even put anything in the pot? Is that just water boiling?’ 

And so we get to these two kitchen sequences. Chot has chided Pat for not properly receiving someone's feelings, which is an idea that's been all over BL recently, that I'm totally into. Like you can reject people just fine, like you do not owe people any booty at all. But if someone tells you that you're important to them, you should at least acknowledge that they made themselves vulnerable to you, and acknowledge those feelings. Fine, good. Go buy a carrot cake and run to that man. But he goes to Jeng and tries to acknowledge his feelings and Jeng's like, ‘okay, we're together now’ and they make out, and I'm like ‘oh okay, sure, I guess? What? No!’ 

And this is when the not talking portion kicks in, and then Pat breaks up with Jeng, for what I believe are incredibly valid reasons of feeling like Jeng doesn't trust him or believe in him, because he makes choices for them without consulting Pat. And Pat feels like Jeng is always undercutting him, and Jaab makes a point about this in the final episode—when he doesn't talk to Jen at all? whatever—and says, ‘you kind of manipulated Pat the way Dad manipulated you.’ And I'm like, ‘that's a very, very specific idea, that makes a whole lot of sense, that we're just going to walk away from because this is the last episode—roll the fluff!’ 

So we get to the second kitchen scene, and I'm trying to accept the emotions of the scene? Of Pat just deciding that he's going to let go of the anger because he really likes Jeng, and he likes what the two of them had together, and he just kind of wants to let it work and figure it out together—the same way I Promised You the Moon ended. And I like that, but it doesn't land here for me? And I ended up really irritated about it. And this is where I get frustrated, like Jeng through episode…10, works for me, but the dead-eyed Jeng of episode 11 and the sad depressive Jeng of episode 12—it feels like he never comes back to life. Which may have been their point, but they went out of their way to try and make me feel like he and Pat are together and they're happy and everything's going to be okay now because they're together in the final episode. It feels unearned, and it feels like they didn't finish the goddamn mission! when it comes to Jeng.

Nini

And for me, it feels exactly the opposite, because those two kitchen scenes are very clearly paralleled, you're absolutely correct: in the first kitchen scene when they're first getting together, they don't talk about anything that's important, they just kind of roll past it. But in the second kitchen scene, they stop, they take a breath, Jeng says, ‘let's talk about this tomorrow.’ He's happy, yeah, but they make a deliberate point of not doing the same shit that they did before. They make a point of saying the things; they make a point of taking a beat; they make a point of taking their time; they make a point of actually talking to each other. And to me that's why it works. I mean it works, as well, for emotional reasons that are just pure, like, me engaging with romantic notions, reasons, and I'll fully admit to that. But to me the fact that those two scenes were so different was kind of the point? And I quite enjoyed that part. 

Another problem with the show that I think makes it really not legible for people is the fact that you don't have any sense of the passage of time. Like you really have to work to figure out how much time has passed between any two events in the show.

Ben

And clearly we were on the wrong timeline from the show.

Nini

[laughs] I think they just made a mistake in the last episode. I did a lot of work on the show, but I enjoy that, so I was fine. The timeline is that the first 9 to 10 episodes happen over the course of roughly a year? And then episode 11 is very compressed. I think they do give us a chiron at one point, that you figure out it's like about three months maybe? And then the last episode, it spans years—not just including the time skip, but the actual episode itself. 

Ben

It feels like somewhere between three to five years for sure.

Nini

Yeah, the last part of the episode, like maybe the last half hour, is like a series of vignettes? But it's just that the way that it's edited, it doesn't feel like a series of vignettes. It feels like scenes that are happening in sequence, which they're not. 

Like I said, the editing of this show, monkeys on crack cocaine and ayahuasca, absolutely. Storyboarding, I'm not sure anybody did any? 

I did a lot of work to enjoy the show. But I did enjoy it.

Ben

And I hate that. I hated the sides, like they weren't even in the final episode, they're like ‘yeah we don't care about them, get them the fuck out of here.’ No Khanun, no Jen, just get them out of here. We're gonna be here for an hour and forty two minutes, but the sides required literally zero closure to help stick the landing with the mains? Ugh, man.

Nini

They were there to reinforce thematic ideas, and they leaned way too hard into them as a narrative point when they weren't supposed to be narrative. So yes, completely agree with you, that was a mess. 

It's not that I don't agree with you! We're saying that this is a fight night and I got my eye black on, but the reality is that I don't disagree with anything you're saying. It’s just that I was fine with doing that work, and you are not fine with doing that work because you think you shouldn't have to do that work, and that's…yeah, you're probably right about that.

Ben

I'm in the business of recommending things to people because I like enjoying things with people. I will not be showing this to Emily, because I have to explain too much along the way the whole fucking time. And like, I hate that! It shouldn't be this goddamn hard to enjoy the damn show. 

I ended up comparing the dissonance around this show to, say, something like 2gether, which I think is remembered fondly because of pandemic stuff, and less because the show is good. Because everybody acknowledges that the show is a goddamn mess, but there's things that they take out of it, they say ‘I really like this.’ And that's how I feel about Step by Step. I loved everything that Man did in this; I think he played a 32 year old repressed gay man really well. But low key…I gotta be honest, I'm a little burned out on feeling a bunch of fucking feelings about sad rich gay boys? Like, the West is obsessed with sad rich gay boys and I am burnt the hell out on it. Like ‘oh no, he's sad, in his penthouse…’ who cares? [laughs]

Nini

I think for me as well, because I've been spending so much time with Turtles’s Asian family trauma lens, that I dug into that side of things, like a little deeply with my brain, and I was kind of enjoying kicking that around to myself as part of this.

Ben

And that’s the thing that sucks! Like Jeng, through episode 10, works so well for me. Like I absolutely loved what Man was doing with Jeng, how he was playing him, how Ben was playing Pat as kind of oblivious to it but unconsciously flirting with Jeng.

We didn't even talk about Up Poompot! Up Poompot was in this show and he whipped ass! Up was so good! Put was an incredible character. So Put is Pat's ex, who was not a great ex to him. This is very clearly a failed first romance on a lot of different levels. Put is ambitious, and he wants a lot more from his life than to just stay in the poor town the two of them grew up in, and he clearly didn't have Pat's skills to go to school…twice, study in America, and come back to Thailand as a highly trained marketing professional who can go into a corporate environment, and even with every goddamn employee in there working on his damn nerves still be the best person that they have on their team. Put doesn't have that: he's pretty and he's charming, and he's an actor. He has to go into BL, and so he can't have a boyfriend. Which is very fucked, that gay people cannot be out in BL. Insane. Put is an incredible character. He is simultaneously deeply unlikable and also incredibly sympathetic. Up is so good in this show. 

And I think Ben, who has an incredibly internal character—who really could have benefited from a journal? So that we could hear his thoughts more often—also does a really good job playing someone who is barely keeping it together, and trying to restrain their quick temper. Ben does a good job as a fairly new actor dealing with some really complex internal things that have to be externalized, in a film tradition that leans towards bombastic. That's really difficult to do. 

Bruce is in this! Bruce had such a rough character to portray in Lovely Writer, and it was hard to really like that character even if you felt bad for them. So glad we got a character for Bruce that we loved this time in Chot. 

Zorzo is in this, she's incredible, we love her. She can do whatever she wants—she shows up on a set and we're just like, ‘hello Zorzo, what do you want to do today?’ 

It's just so much fun watching this cast work together. Even the new people. Saint had some difficulties with his romantic partner and I think that's because he was new and nervous about doing that right. But he was really really good with Ben: when Jaab was interacting with Pat, Saint was really good, and you can see why he was cast. His chemistry with Ben felt so natural, and didn't read as like weirdly sexual or romantic, which is very easy to fall into in BL when they put literally any boys in the same room with each other. 

They did a great job letting queer friendships feel like queer friendships in this show. There's so much that's genuinely good in this show, which is why I feel like I have to give it a 7.5. Like if it had just been kind of bad and muddled? I’d have probably given it an 8 for just pure gumption. But it's frustrating, because it feels like everyone understood what the mission was and the plan fell apart with contact with the enemy immediately, and they did not regroup at all.

Nini

This is sounding like video game stuff.

Ben

I'm kind of pissed! I'm in captain mode right now. I'm assessing the film and going over everyone's screens and we're talking about who fucked up here. 

50:25 - Step by Step: Where are we on Tee Bundit?

Ben

The most important thing to ask now is, where do either of us sit when it comes to Tee Bundit and Dee Hup House?

Nini

I am a Tee Bundit fan? I see some of the things that he wants to say. I think that maybe he needs some guardrails? And maybe to lighten up a little bit? Because he has good ideas, and the ideas, he makes them very legible, when he wants to. 

I am curious to see how he does with some guardrails. Sometimes an artist needs a few guardrails to really focus themselves. So I am still down with Tee, and I'm interested in seeing the rest of what he's putting out this year. How about you?

Ben

I just want to grab him—like William Shatner in a classic Star Trek episode—by both of his upper arms, and say very clearly: “You got to stop being mean to the audience, bro. They're on your side.” It feels like he's beefing with us the audience, in Step by Step. Like it feels like he resents that the only way he can tell queer stories and get funded is to do queer romance, which I don't know that he's interested in—even though clearly he cares a lot about queer existence. Which is a very complicated space to sit as an artist, particularly with what the zeitgeist is feeling right now? 

But I need him to not take that energy out on us as the audience, like we signed up for romance, bro! Stop making us feel bad for wanting that! It just feels like Tee is just mad, and yelling in the room, and we're like ‘I get that you're mad bro, but this is unfun for all of us: we are on your side, and you are taking this out on us.’ He's that friend, who's right…but fuck, dude!

[Nini laughs]

Ben

That's all I've got. It's a chop for me, I'm sorry. [laughs]

Nini

Nah, I mean, sometimes we disagree, my friend, that’s just the way it is. [laughs] For me it’s a 9, for Ben it’s a 7.5, so that works out to…8.25? Yeah, that sounds about right.

Ben

It’s not bad, but it’s not good.

Nini

8.25 for Step by Step, and entry into contention for the Girl You Tried award for this season.

53:10 - La Pluie

Nini

Okay, so we are talking all things La Pluie. Ben, tell us what La Pluie is about.

Ben

La Pluie is a sort of speculative fiction romance, set in a world very similar to ours, where a small subset of the population experience temporary sensory loss whenever it rains as a form of deafness. Of that incredibly small population, an even smaller portion of them, when they come of age—which is 20 in Thailand—they may begin to hear another person's voice whenever it rains. Those people are seemingly tied to each other by this rain-based connection and other people have described them as soulmates. 

Our protagonist Saengtai is a 22-year-old who experiences rain deafness. He has three brothers, one older, and both of his parents are what people call soulmates. When he turned 20, his parents wanted him to know that they were getting a divorce, and this shattered Saengtai’s faith in the concept of soulmates, and he spent the next two years actively avoiding speaking to his soulmate at all. Two years later, he happens to run into him in a cafe, realizes his soulmate is hot, and then [laughs] decides to maybe give it a shot. And the show becomes this ongoing exploration of the concept of romance itself, unpacking whether or not the soulmates concept is real, portrayed by incredibly emotionally aware characters. 

Our primary four characters are: Saengtai, our protagonist, who's a writer. Patts, his soulmate, who is a veterinarian, and slightly older than him, and very cool. You have Saengtai’s little brother Saengtien, who’s kind of a rascal, who does not have rain deafness but very much believes in the concept of soulmates. And then there's Lomfon, a boy who is also in school with Saengtien, who adamantly refuses to believe in soulmates, and causes his own problems along the way. There's quite a colorful cast of supporting characters, and this is probably…the most legible show that we've ever watched? From the very first scene, this show is nothing but constant payoff.

Nini

Hmm, I don't know about from the very first scene, because as you know, it took me a few episodes to kind of get there. I started and stopped, and then had to be cajoled back in [laughs] and I do not regret coming back in. The line on this for me is that I think soulmates are bullshit. I've never been a fan of this soulmate trope—in the first episode or two, I'm just kind of like, ‘I don't know that they're gonna do anything interesting with this’ and then sometime around…it was definitely around episode 4, and I know it was around episode 4 because isn't that when Tai bit that man? We're gonna talk about this, Ben.

Ben

[laughs] Tai did bite that man, in episode 3.

Nini

Tai, my precious little alley cat, that was when I decided I was in [laughs] and I was gonna keep watching. I mean he literally got drunk and bit Patts, and I was like, ‘okay this is gonna be fucking awesome.’ Who bites somebody??

Ben

Someone unhinged!

Nini

Exactly, that's the point! And you know I love unhinged, so I was in for the duration after that. That was like the end of episode 3 when he bit him? And then episode 4 it just keeps getting better.

57:50 - La Pluie: The Soulmate Myth

Ben

Let's get properly into the soulmate stuff. I stand by my comment that this show begins paying off from the very first scene. We read the blurb, we get our little intro, and he's like ‘we got soulmates in this world; I can't hear when it rains; there's a boy who talks to me when it rains,’ and we were like ‘whoa man, these two are gonna fuck real good!’ And then the show opens with divorce. And I was like, ‘never mind, I am seated!’ 

Right away, the show is telling you that it is going to challenge the presumptions built into its core premise. It spends the entire time interrogating its premise, with really legible characters. And I think you provided the clearest read on the sort of primary archetypes these characters fit, when you described them in the framework of faith. So, please elaborate on your analysis.

Nini

The key thing all our characters, our key characters are dealing with in the show, is whether they believe in soulmates or not? So you have Tien, who is absolutely a true believer, 100% believes in soulmates, no matter what has happened to potentially shake his faith in soulmates he totally believes in it. Then you have Tai, who I described as an apostate, because Tai used to be a true believer and then his faith was shattered, and so he's sort of gone against believing in soulmates. In terms of their love interests, you have Patts, who is sort of agnostic on the idea? ‘Eh, I don't know, maybe soulmates are real, maybe they're not, doesn't really matter to me. I don't know what to believe but I'm not going to let it affect what I'm doing, and this is the way I feel about things.’ And then you've got Lomfon, who is an atheist: not just an atheist, like a rationalist atheist. He's just like, ‘soulmates are bullshit, I don't buy this, I don't believe in anything that this is happening here.’ And then what the show does with those four viewpoints is sort of, brings them all around to a kind of agnosticism? So in the end, they kind of all get to where Patts started. 

Then one of the things the show does towards the end, really at the end, is bring Patts around to being…sort of a true believer? Not necessarily in the sense of the rain deafness connection being a soulmate connection, but believing in the idea of having a soulmate. I don't think that's in any way related to the rain deafness connection at all, but more about choices and the way that he feels about Tai, and the way that Tai feels about him and the relationship that they are building. I found that really interesting, where in the end everybody kind of comes around to the agnostic viewpoint, Patts is the one who moves towards a, a believer, but not in the whole myth.

Ben

I think what works for me really in the show, when it comes to the belief in soulmates or not, is…the show understands that belief without action is meaningless. In the case of Tai and Lomfon, their choices and inaction create immense harm for the people around them that they claim to care about. In the case of Tai, he hurts Patts, for years, with his silence. Like it is totally fine for him to want to work out his comfortability with the rain-based connection privately and on his own time, but he owed it to Patts to say that. Even just, ‘I'm uncomfortable having you in my head, please don't talk to me when it rains.’ That's all he had to say. It's the silence that was really cruel for me. He's hurting Patts and punishing him, because his parents let him down. That's really shitty. 

Lomfon glomps on to Tai, for whatever reason, and just determines he's supposed to be with Tai. Actively ignoring the growing relationship between him and Tien, hurting everyone along the way. Whereas Patts and Tien are both actively treating people with immense kindness and care, because of how they believe and how they move through the world. Tien cares a lot about his brother: he knows his brother was hurt by what happened to their parents, and he gives excuses for him and he tries to take care of his brother, he tries to make himself small to take care of his family and the people around them, even if he's a little bit feisty. And Patts, who maybe doesn't care about the soulmate shit at all, sees Tai once: is like, ‘whoa, I am inextricably drawn to this person,’ and pursues him very kindly. The people with the most angst about whether or not this shit is real are the ones doing the most harm to other people. It's the people who are most pissy about faith being the worst in their relationships.

Nini

Look at us here being a couple of lapsed Catholics on the podcast.

[both laugh]

Nini

There is so much that the show wants to say about that idea of faith without works being dead. So much that the show wants to say about the relationship between chance and choice. I think the show itself is agnostic on whether soulmates are real? But I think the show does also say: there is some mix of chance and choice in romance. You ran into this person in a coffee shop—that's chance. But what you do next is choice. 

There're little things sprinkled throughout, like Patts and Tai finding out—once they've decided to be together—finding out that they actually had a connection from earlier on, because Patts's grandmother used to live next door to Tai. So when Tai's parents split up and he was like really sad and depressed about it, Patts saw this kid crying, and he just decided to be kind to this kid, and he helped Tai through, like, the immediate aftermath of his parents' divorce. And in return for that kindness, Tai sort of helped him through the death of his grandmother? They never saw each other's faces or anything like that, this was a happenstance. This was a chance encounter, through Patts's kindness and Tai’s kindness in return, that became a connection between them. Again, chance and choice. It was by chance that Patts saw this kid crying, but it was a choice to be kind to the kid next door. 

That's threaded throughout the story in different parts, this idea that chance brings you to the table but choice determines what happens when you get there.

Ben

I feel very strongly, as a lapsed Catholic, that none of the beliefs matter if you're just trying to be right. What matters is how you treat people.

Nini

The show is more interested in the choices than the chances, but it does put the chances sort of in there. You know that the show is interested in the choices because of the way that it deals with the parents, and the parents divorce, and how the parents have made it through their divorce and continue to be people who are together in dealing with their children, who still talk to each other when it rains, who have moved out of a romantic phase and into a platonic phase in their lives. To the point where the mom can get remarried to somebody who is more suited to her, and this doesn't affect their friendship. 

I really enjoyed the aspects of the show that really harped on the idea of choice, and choosing how you're going to build a relationship with somebody whether it is romantic or platonic, rather than fate putting somebody in your path and that feeling like a predetermination of who that person is going to be to you. That's why in the end, I did come around to La Pluie after not being interested at the beginning. They fucked with soulmates, and I like that.

Ben

I feel the need to rant.

Nini

The floor is yours, sir. Speak directly into the microphone.

Ben

I'm so glad that this show ended by saying that the soulmate stuff was a trap. It was really frustrating to see everybody caught up in the soulmate stuff, and the mechanic of that, as this verification tool. Maybe it's the whole lapsed Catholic thing and having a very complex relationship with faith and doubt? Because I got the whole notion that the purpose of all of this is about choice. It's about what you do with the opportunities you're given, and how you treat the people when you're there. 

It was really frustrating to watch so many members of the audience just really struggle with this show, because they needed the soulmates thing to either be bullshit, or to be confirmed. I really like that the show very politely sidesteps answering that, because what matters is how people treat each other. The opening scroll of the show is a happy couple that is a guy with rain deafness hanging out with somebody who is not. Like these things were legible from the beginning for me, and it was so…tedious, week in and week out, dealing with the, like the weather report: “Are the soulmates real this week?” Stop. 

Nini

Since we're ventilating the show's take on soulmates so to speak…

1:08:22 - La Pluie: Lomfon is Rude!

Ben

Yeah, let's talk about somebody who clearly got it wrong, in the show!

Nini

[laughs] Let's talk about Lomfon getting that ass beat, and why it was absolutely necessary.

Ben

We're gonna begin where we always sat: Lomfon is rude! And Patts should have punched him harder.

Nini

[laughs] I like just, I heard like a million people just turning the podcast off at this point—but it's, it's true, it's a fact.

Ben

Look, I do not care. Here's the thing: Lomfon is beefing with people for no reason, from the jump. He's beefing with Tien in the store over a goddam magazine. He's beefing with other classmates. He has no goddamn friends.

Nini

He was rude to Bow! He was rude to Tai's boss, and he likes Tai, and he still couldn't muster up like a shred of interest in anything she was doing, or even general politeness to shake her hand and say hi how you doing. Rude!

Ben

He only cares about what he's thinking about, there's no regard for other people. Like yeah, sure. He's like, 20. And like, kids gotta grow up at some point. But also, tastin’ a little bit of fist will reorient your life a little bit sometimes.

Nini

[laughs] True!

Ben

He's just so dramatic! There's this development over the course of the show, where Tai ends up with two different soulmates with connections to him. Lomfon is like, ‘I'm hearing Tai’s voice when it rains.’ Instead of, like sending, like a group text, saying, like, ‘hey, I believe something very strange may have happened to me, I think we should all meet up next Sunday at four o'clock—because I've checked the weather and we should all be together for this.’ And they could have handled this like adults and talked about stuff. No. Lomfon is rude and selfish, and so he needs to corner Tai in the rain, kiss Tai, and be like ‘whoops, my bad!’ And then when Patts rolls up on him throwing haymakers, he's like ‘whoa bro, no, he's mine!’ He's yours? Little boy. Please. 

I got a lot of smoke for this motherfucker, I got some notes over here. This dude hung out with Tien at a cast party, cuddled with drunk Tien, calls his brother because Tien needs a ride home—and then while Tien is mostly unconscious, flirts with his older brother? Gross.

Nini

He's in his own zone. He's not thinking about anybody else, he's not interested in whether what he does affects anybody else and how it affects anybody else. And it takes, yes quite frankly, a jaw rockin’, for him to get his head out of his ass. Completely concur that it was needed. 

Because I mean, think about this okay? Even if he actually liked Tai—which he doesn't really—does he think that this is the way to go about getting Tai? Let's ponder this for a second, just a short second, okay? It doesn't even make sense. And then, he thinks that maybe he might feel something for Tien, he doesn't know…but instead of, I don't know maybe, hm! going on a date with Tien instead of Tai—like there's so many other ways that Lomfon could have gone about what he went about. He just did it in the messiest way possible. Everybody was already telling him, ‘look I'm seeing what you're doing here and I'm gonna need you to take a step back.’

Ben

Tien picked up on it because they were on that mountain, and he saw Lomfon starting shit and looking at his brother, and he pulled that motherfucker aside, he said, ‘I am a third son, bitch, I will bury you on this mountain! Don't ever look at my brother again! Their relationship is theirs, and if you fuck with them one more time, they will not find your fucking corpse on this mountain.’

Nini

Everybody who saw it told Lomfon, ‘yo, you need to mind your own business.’ And if they didn't tell Lomfon, they told Tai—so Bow told Tai, ‘look, Lomfon’s up in your business. You need to say something and get that kid away from your business.’ Tien told him mind your own business. Patts told him mind your own business—because Patts definitely knew that Lomfon had a crush on Tai.

Ben

And Lomfon’s like, ‘well I heard Tai's voice in the rain, so now it's my business,’ and instead of talking to Tai properly, he's going to go like beef with Patts and be like I'm taller than you, so. 

[both laugh] That boy got on my goddamn nerves! Like, he's an excellent character. 

1:13:30 - La Pluie: Tai Also Deserves Some Smoke 

Ben

Let's talk about how Tai needed that ass whooped too.

Nini

That's what I was about to say, like, we're on Lomfon and Lomfon deserved it, but Tai also deserves some smoke and I'm here to give it to him. Tai, baby boy. Patts carried you down that mountain after you ran up there in the first place offa some bullshit. He had to carry you back down that mountain, y’all come back down the mountain as boyfriends. You looked at that man in the car and told him ‘I want to stay over at your place tonight’ and that man beat land speed records to take you back to his house. You literally got the booty in every single room in that apartment. 

And then you decide to go on a date-not-date with Lomfon? I feel like it was a little bit too—like he was slightly flattered?

Ben

Let me just read Tai his rights. [Nini laughs] 

This man, after finally getting what he thinks he's wanted this whole time, realizes there may be a situation going on with his brother's friend. He coulda asked his brother, like at any moment: ‘yo what's up with Lomfon, like Bow is already saying dude was sniffing around, and he asked me you to do some sort of thing, and I dunno how I feel about it. What's up with you and your little friend?’ And Tien could have been like ‘oh noooo, I actually like him, why is he doing this like?’ He could have solved this any number of ways that were less dramatic than ‘let me lie to my boyfriend because I'm worried how he's gonna handle knowing that this little dude is sniffing around’—as if he didn't already know. 

It is so frustrating that Patts—who is clear from the beginning that his primary concern was Saengtai’s comfort and happiness—for Saengtai to just actively ignore this man's vocalized needs. Man is telling you, he wants you to say the things. And you're like ‘well, don't my actions show it?’ No baby boy, because you're out here with some other dude in the middle of the motherfuckin’ rain, and you need to do better. 

And then! That boy is at his mom's wedding. Your dad has said he is happy for her. He likes the guy that she's gonna be with, and he's happy for the life that they're gonna have. And this boy ruins their wedding, making it all about him, because he's mad that his parents’ soulmate thing didn't work out. Oh I was so mad at that boy. 

He was so frustrating as a protagonist sometimes, because he just shits on all the relationships in his life. He shits on his mom. He’s low key shitting on his dad. He relies on his little brother too much without really paying attention to him in a meaningful way, and he beats up on Patts. And he does the same thing to Bow, like he works with Bow. She's clearly covering for him at work. Because he works with a bunch of other people and refuses to ever learn their names or really engage with them.

Nini

This is not to say that we do not love my little alley cat Tai, but he is a fucking alley cat. [laughs] He has the predisposition and morals of one, quite frankly. Like he's scratching and biting…in some ways he's just as rude as Lomfon. But like, you see where all this stuff comes from. And you want him to like, just for a second like, dude, retract the claws, and stop making decisions for people that are more about what you want and what you're interested in than what they want and need and have said that they want and need.

Ben

This is what I mean, like, the show being legible and saying the same thing the whole time. Like, as early as episode 2 Tai is like, ‘hey I found my soulmate,’ and Tien says quite plainly, ‘you fucked with love: unfuck it.’ And when he finally has that confrontation with his parents where they show him the complexity of human relationships, where his dad also says, ‘when you have love you need to take care of it.’ 

It's so funny, like, for all that Tai is obsessed with his dad, Tien is the one who picked up on his dad's, like, core skills. And Tai is so much like his mom, I'm really glad the show finally recognized that towards the end. Tai recognizes that he's doing to Patts what his mom was doing to him: not giving him any information, leaving him to suffer in silence without giving him the context that he's desperately needing. And it showed a lot of growth that he finally got his ass together, and spent the whole episode running around looking for that man, because goddamn. 

1:18:26 - La Pluie: Tai’s Dad Read as Queer

Ben

I wanna get this aside in here, how Tai's dad read as queer to me the whole time, I don't know if he did to you?

Nini

He did, but I didn't know if that was the actor or the character.

Ben

I think it may have been both, and I think I like the way the show handled it. I think it was very useful for subtext to show that Tai's dad is queer? And to not confirm it at the text level. Because La Pluie is not interested in structural homophobia. But I thought it was a really interesting premise to consider what happens if a straight person and a gay person think they're soulmates. What happens if a man who knows who he is goes into a straight marriage, loves his sons, loves his wife, but they can't work, because they can't be the kind of partners they need to be to each other. Which is exactly what the show says, without saying it’s because the dad was queer. 

And I think I really like the show leaving that as subtext for us to consider? Because the show does such a great job at building emotionally intelligent gay relationships otherwise.

Nini

I think there were lots of markers for it, like there were markers in the character themselves, there are markers in the relationship that the father and the mother had, the way that the mother was the breadwinner and the father was the caretaker. There are markers in the father's chosen profession, he's a chef. There is a, sort of a marker in this idea of him being—I think it was a private chef to some ambassador and spending a lot of time with this ambassador? All of these are things that I picked up on, and I don't know if they were easter eggs or if they were just throwaways, but there were lots of like tiny little markers.

Ben

And also him being the one to actually say that they should break up.

Nini

Yeah, there, there are lots of tiny little, like I said, could be read as markers, could just be coincidental, but the show is so well constructed that I am loath to leave it to the idea of coincidence.

Ben

I agree. I think it's well done. 

1:20:48 - La Pluie: The Romance

Ben

Tai needed to get his shit together, because as far as I'm concerned Patts is maybe the most perfect romantic interest that BL has ever created. And that also feels really intentional for the themes that they're unpacking.

Nini

La Pluie is a romance novel. Like, if you look at the way it's structured, the way it's organized, La Pluie is a romance novel that is sort of an anti romance novel, almost? And in a romance novel, the love interest is essentially perfect. If they have a flaw, it's something that is, ‘my only flaw is that I care too much’ or some shit like that, you know, that kind of thing? [both laugh] 

Patts fits into that mould in a way, but it's also subverted a little bit? So, he's handsome, he's a vet, he is kind to animals, he’s kind to people. He's very sweet, he is a hundred percent into Tai.

Ben

He drives a Porsche. He has a very nice apartment.

Nini

[laughs] He's rich. You know what I mean? All the markers of like the perfect romantic hero.

Ben

He has no family drama.

Nini

None whatsoever…he has a little tragic backstory with grandmother dying…like he’s the perfect romantic hero in a trope sense. Listen, I think sometime around the time that Tai bit that man— and yeah I'm still not over it— 

Ben

He did bite that man.

Nini

I remember saying to Ben, ‘oh so like Tai’s an alley cat, but Patts is a literal angel.’ Because after he bit that man and then he threw up on him, still that man took him home, let him, like, lay in his bed. He gave him clothes, left him alone to change his own clothes, and then in the morning when he woke up hungover and couldn't remember shit, he woke up and there was a note because he had cleared out, he didn’t wanna make him feel awkward or anything like that. He cleared out, he left a note saying all the things that he did the night before, because he didn't know if he was going to remember…He was perfect about it. He was such a gentleman.

Ben

As one of the leaders of the Patts defense squad, I'm gonna have to lead a charge for my boy. Because my man is the best communicator. He clearly understands that something is wrong with his soulmate, doesn't pressure him to talk to him; just talks back to him, tries to be kind to him, tries to say nice things to him. Eventually sees a guy who he wants to pursue. He does not know that it’s Tai. But the first thing he does that night is like, ‘hey I don't know what's going on with you, but I saw the cutest boy that has ever existed, and I'm gonna pursue him, so uh, deuces!’ 

So they end up at this club, Tai gets low-key abandoned by his friends, so Patts takes care of him. Tai bites that man, tries to bite him again. Later that night starts fussing with Patts, accusing him of being a player, and then makes out with him! Like yes, he was drunk, but—makes out with him! Like bro! Patts starts pursuing him earnestly after that, by leaving the note. And then Tai, who does have communication skills and social skills, does the cutesy thing you would do in a movie. He's going to return the fucking clothes to Patts in a cute little bag waiting outside his job. And the two of them go out on the cutest little date, full of all sorts of great stuff. 

Also, like, I haven't talked about it that much here: Title is really really good. I love the way Title and Pee both play their characters in this show. The way Title played Tai during that dinner they had? Was so good. At one point when he asks Patts, ‘do you always eat like this?’ 

Nini

And he points with the knife?

Ben

And he points with the knife, it is so, so perfect! And Patts is so clever. Like Tai wants to hang out and they want to go on the date and he's like, ‘let me not…bullshit about who I am.’ They ride in his Porsche to a fancy restaurant that Patts clearly frequents regularly because the staff recognizes him. He hands Tai the menu and asks Tai what he wants. Tai, who also has social skills and is like ‘I don't know about this, I don't know what the rules are here,’ decides not to make the choice on ordering something, ‘cause he's not trying to hit him up style. So he passes the choice to Patts, and then Patts makes a neutral choice by just saying ‘we'll have whatever the chef’s special is for the day.’ By making the neutral choice to just accept the chef’s special, even though Patts picked the place, he is making sure Tai understands that Patts will not be forcing him to do anything. 

I just really love their date, like there's so much there; Patts is really charming, he's funny…and then moving along, the next thing Tai does, which is insane, is introduce Patts to his dad without warning. And the dad ain't shit either, picking on Patts the whole time.

Nini

[laughs] It was funny.

Ben

He hangs out with their dad, and immediately Patts’s instinct is to show the proper respect to Tai’s father. He doesn't get in the middle of their fight. He doesn't ask about it. He just sort of gives them a way to end the fight now, he politely asks about Tai and his other brothers, giving Tai a chance to talk about his family if he wants to. They go back to Tai’s place. Patts, not really thinking about it, walks in on Tai while he's changing, gets to see all the goodies. And then they have this intense moment, and they end up making out on the floor. 

I want to make a special note here about La Pluie: La Pluie is one of the first BLs that I can really remember, ever, that when there is a moment of intense sexual tension, releases it. So often these shows just bait us. They titillate us, they want us to get all hot and bothered about ‘whoa, they's ‘bout to kiss’ and then they interrupt it with some nonsense. Or they just don't do anything with it and they tease us and they make bits out of it. And as much as I enjoy these shows, it was so refreshing to see a show go, ‘what if we release it? What if they actually start making out on the floor? What then?’ 

I get frustrated a lot of times in BL about how they make these boys dickless. And there's this really lovely thing in La Pluie that Patts’s concern was Tai's pleasure. But they stop, because Tai isn't ready. And though Patts was a bit caught up in the moment, he catches himself. And they back off, and they have a conversation about what else is going on. Patts learns a little bit more about Tai—low key they played with some of the yaoi framing in that moment, because as big as Pee is, he crouches himself down and makes himself lower than Tai, and is kind of looking at, up at him in cute ways—because you'd expect Patts to be maybe the seme in this sort of framing—and they do that early on by putting Patts on the left with the date shit when Tai goes to see him, but Patts is queering that narrative by intentionally moving himself to the right when he's trying to get closer to Tai. 

When they're on their Chiang Mai trip, one of the most insane things this show does that I will never get over, is…they’re sharing the bed, both of them are awake. They know what's going to happen, we know what's going to happen, but everyone knows Tai is not exactly ready, because we haven't climbed that mountain yet. We haven't dealt with the core angst. We're both two men who are very attracted to each other, and we know we're attracted to each other—so they start to get hot and bothered, but Tai has them stop again, and Patts, our strongest soldier, pulls himself back again. But Tai, listening to his good sis Bow, is like ‘I can't keep leaving this man hanging, I can't keep starting these things and then not finishing it.’ He offers to blow Patts and it was very explicit that that's what happened. We know! 

It's so impressive to me that this show presented Tai giving Patts head as a way for him to maintain control over a sexual encounter. The whole notion about giving pleasure as a form of control is something we have not really seen explored in BL this way. I really liked that this show focused on the different ways that two men are going to become more physically and sexually comfortable with each other over time. And even after everything, after Tai has cast him aside, he still chooses to go back to Tai and try and reconcile with him, because he did lose his temper. And that was a scary moment. And I think I like that Patts losing his temper was made as jarring and scary as possible in the show, because I feel like really perfect characters need to have this intense rage about them. Because I have never met a chill pacifist in my life. The choice to be kind is so hard in a world full of cruelty, and I like that underneath the surface of Patts is a temper that he has to manage and maintain. I love my man.

Nini

I can't remember who it is, somebody put this on Tumblr: that Patts is kind but he's not always nice, and Tai is nice but that he's not always kind.

Ben

Exactly.

Nini

Tai seems like, you know, gentle and soft. But when it comes down to it, Tai is the one in the narrative who's actually kind of cruel? It's very interesting to put that on a romantic protagonist. How it ends up getting read is incredibly interesting, because that person is the romantic protagonist, it ends up getting…cast aside, and here I go back into Calvinism and the green flag label [laughs] that I thought I had ventilated with Bed Friend.

Ben

[laughs] As soon as you said that my third eye opened, and I was like—

Nini

Here I go again!

Ben

Where—where's my bat?

[both laugh]

Nini

I didn't get this out of my system the first time, somehow. But yeah, the way that that's received in a protagonist, the fact that the protagonist is kind of a little bit of a bitch boy, quite frankly [laughs], gets glossed over, and then the person who made a mistake has it sort of loom large.

1:32:06 - La Pluie: Depiction of Male Anger

Ben

I got a little bit mad about that with the fandom too like, we got all this bending over backwards week in and week out for Lomfon's rude ass and Tai’s rude ass. Patts loses his temper once, punches a boy, punches a wall, and we're like ‘oh! he's dangerous!’ And I'm like, ‘I hate this!’ 

And there's a lot more I want to unpack here in the future — this does not feel like the right time to do it, but we really need to talk about that at some point, as a community that engages with romance? Because we have a really fucked-up relationship with violence. Like, Patts, not leaving a mark on Lomfon was seen as egregious. Punching a door in frustration was seen as egregious. But like, Bad Buddy opens up with Pran shit-kicking Pat to the fucking ground, as these boys beat the shit out of each other!

Nini

I think like, it's a lot of things. It's a question of who gets to be angry, and how anger is portrayed, and men's anger, and the way that women—because of the way that we have to be socialized to protect ourselves, the way that we view men's anger that is sort of slightly different from how men will view men's anger? And how being familiar with certain kinds of angry expressions from men is, like, one of the reasons that women shrink from that kind of stuff. And there's so many women in BL fandom. 

Like I understood where that was coming from, but at the same time, the show is so legible. It's very legible that this is Patts…reaching the end of his rope, and it's very clear in the show that Patts would never actually hurt anybody. [laughs] He doesn't even really hurt Lomfon. Lomfon is fine! He gets his ass kicked a little bit, but he's fine!

Ben

As our great friend wen-kexing-apologist pointed out, this show has a makeup budget. My boy Tai got his shit fucked up on that mountain, and the makeup crew made sure he looked messed up even in that wet filming situation. They could have afforded to make that boy's mouth bruised the way it should have been for talking the way he was, and my man doesn't. And that's the thing that gets me. Like, everybody else is allowed to be an asshole, but Patts, who I believe deserves to be righteously angry about this shit going down at this point in their relationship—and it's like ‘aw, geez, I don't know about that brah.’ 

We see, through Patts’s relationship with Nara, that he would never actually hurt Tai. And that's why the intensity of his frustration I think should have been the focus, not the expression of it. I really resented the way it felt like everyone suddenly wanted to regulate Patts’s frustration. I hate the whole notion that he is only allowed to be upset in an attractive, gentle way. Because he's been gentle the whole goddamn time, and everyone has been so rude and disrespectful of him.

Nini

Like, there is room to talk about the expression of Patts’ frustration, but you can't have that room if you're using it in a reductive manner to just completely kick him out the window as a character. I don't buy that, I don't subscribe to it.

1:35:50 - La Pluie: Treatment of Nara

Ben

With Nara, we saw that Patts is capable of dealing with difficult romantic situations. Because Nara is treated so sympathetically about everything that went down with her and Patts. How she feels frustrated about Patts’s soulmate connection with Tai, long before they start talking, I think is valid. Because she felt frustrated. She felt frustrated that anytime it rains, Patts gets moody, and it feels like somebody else is in the middle of their relationship. And you got the sense from them accidentally making out in the rain one time, where Patts immediately cut it off and apologized, that he didn't want to put Tai through that, even before he knew who Tai was. I got that Nara felt frustrated that her intimacy was scheduled around the goddamn rain. She felt an innate jealousy in her own relationship that she knew she was struggling with and couldn't exactly cope with. It wasn't fair to either of them. Patts is like, ‘look if I can get rid of this I would, because I do care about you.’ 

Nara takes some time. She gets to reflect, she decides to grow. She knows that it's hard out here in these goddamn streets, and Patts is a keeper, and she tries to do the big romantic gesture. And that's why Tai liked her! Because that boy loves big romantic gestures! And Patts lets her down, he apologizes, he's like ‘I'm sorry I may have led you on, I want things to be okay between us. Because what happened between us was real, it mattered to me, and I still care about you even if I can't give you my heart like that anymore.’ Yeah, “we should stay friends” is kind of a cliche, but it feels earned here. 

And I also like that Nara got to be disappointed and heartbroken and upset about it too. I liked that people cared about how she felt. They wanted to reintegrate her into the group. The other vets liked Nara, even if she wasn't going to be Patts’ girlfriend anymore. But they understand that in the breakup, they're Patts’s friends. And you know those people respect relationship dynamics, because they didn't just look to Patts to see if Nara was okay to be around, they look to Saengtai, to see how the new person was going to feel about that—particularly because he just ran up a fucking mountain because of her—and he says it's okay, and they were so eager to reintegrate her into the group. 

And then she and Dream get to get rolling. And they let us have them at the end! She was like, ‘look, we only got five minutes left in this show, if you going to get this shit you better come correct and you better come now.’ And I loved that! Because the girlies deserved it.

Nini

She said, ‘I'm grown, give it your best shot.’

Ben

I saw some frustrations with the ending, and how a lot of the episode was Tai running around by himself, and meeting some random characters at the end, and…us not spending a lot of time with Patts, like Patts not really talking at the end? But it works for me. Tai had to deal with the silence, for the first time—that he inflicts silence on so many people, and now he's the one who has to sit in the shit that he made. 

And I liked him meeting a couple that had challenges to deal with in their relationship, and being told once again, ‘you just got to do the work bro, you gotta talk to each other, you gotta listen to what your partner is saying to you.’ And I like that the final scene with Tai and Patts is Tai not hesitating. 

Man! This show was so rewarding to watch because it wasn't trying to trick us.

Nini

The show was wearing its bona fides on the tin. It was very clear where it wanted to go, what it wanted to do. It wasn't playing with us. It wasn't trying to gotcha with us. It was just laying out its central idea, and continually reinforcing it throughout the story and the narrative for the entire way through. 

Does that make it, like, unpredictable and exciting? No. But it made it really enjoyable to watch: to watch something lay the path, and then walk the path, was more fun than it, I expected it to be, I have to say.

1:40:47 - La Pluie: The Side Characters

Nini

And, when we're talking about laying the path and walkin’ the path—man, let's just get to it, let's talk about Tien and Lomfon. 

Here are the polar opposites, okay, because in Tai and Patts, like you have an agnostic and an apostate, like they're not as far apart as somebody like Tien and Lomfon, who are a true believer and a total atheist. How do they get to the middle? All the shit that happens in the middle, especially, [laughs] how do they get through that and find their way through each other? Basically, Lomfon has to grovel, and I enjoy a good grovel, so I had a great time.

Ben

Here's the thing. My boy Tien deserves so much more than he got. My man initiated a gay pinky touch, and then Lomfon, was like, ‘hm! I don't know what's going on, but I know that I have these special signs from the universe about this stupid key chain, that I need to go kiss this boy's brother, not the one reaching out with the gay pinky touch while taking care of me while I'm sick, twice!’ I'm gonna stay mad at this man. [both laugh] 

This man ruined a gay pinky touch. Tien is so patient with both of them. Like Patts is beating up Lomfon, Tai is screaming at the universe, clearly suddenly they can all hear in the rain, Tien doesn't know what's going on—but he cuts through the bullshit right away with Lomfon, it's like, ‘I liked you! Why are you being like this?’ Even when Tai didn't realize what was going on, Tien holds back his own disappointment that his brother maybe didn't necessarily see him the right way, and still says, ‘thank you for always being on my left.’ 

Ahh! I love that boy so much! He's so good, he deserves so much more. He was dressing like an early 2000s lesbian the whole time, serving nothing but constant looks. He was so fun to watch, especially when he was being kind of sassy with everyone.

Nini

I like Tien as a character, I like his wardrobe…don't even get me started. That outfit he wore to the wedding? Unreal. I loved it so much.

Ben

I loved it. It's so good. Oh my god.

Nini

Un. Real.

Ben

That whole family looked good, like holy shit! [laughs]

Nini

We didn't even talk about Saengnuea! And oh god, we're never going to get forgiven by one of the clowns if we never even bring up Saengnuea.

Ben

He was so awkward and goofy! I, I liked that boy too. I loved Bow, I loved the vets—what's so great about the side characters with La Pluie, is they do their role just enough to help us understand the world in which these characters exist. Like Tai is surrounded by people trying to just pour love all over that boy, and he will just not let them. Patts is surrounded by a community that loves him, that wants the best for him, that wants to make sure that he gets what he deserves too. Oh my god, just—what an excellent show.

1:44:02 - La Pluie: Sequel Potential

Nini

The thing that I think that we want to end up on is, I said before that La Pluie is basically a filmed romance novel. If you are aware of how, like, these romance novels get set up—a lot of the time, it will be multiple stories set in the same universe, where each of the characters basically gets to fall in love. We know at least that the La Pluie people seem to want to get into all of the Saeng brothers and their various romances. I don't know if they will get to, but what do you think about the obvious setup for the Saengtien sequel at the end of the show, and this idea of going into, like, a Bridgerton-esque series of romances using all of the same characters? 

How do you feel about that?

Ben

Honestly…I’m a little bit nervous because I just worry that the audience won't respond to it really well. I feel like a significant portion of the audience just actively did not get La Pluie. They were really caught up in the soulmate stuff. And I just feel like a lot of the audience maybe didn't…gel with all the themes?

Nini

So as usual, Ben is the one thinking about everybody else while I very selfishly think about myself. [both laugh] And I'm just like, ‘give it to me.’ I'm ready, I'm here for it. I trust these writers, I trust this director, I think that if they get a chance to delve into this universe in more detail and focusing on different characters, I think that they can nail it? I'm ready to see what happens if they get a chance to do it. 

I don't care about whether people are going to get it correctly or not, I don't. I kind of care, but at the same time I don't care. So that being said: Ben, is this a ten or a chop?

Ben

La Pluie is probably in my top five BLs of all time, and it's probably in my top ten shows of all time right now. It's a 10. It's a 10. [laughs] It’s a 10!

Nini

All right? So for Ben it’s a 10, for me it’s definitely a 10, that leaves us with La Pluie as a 10 show!

1:46:01 - Outro

Ben

And we're back.

Nini

Okay Ben, so…lotta ink spilled over these two shows. I don't think I've seen so much meta being written, probably since the Bad Buddy era. We've got a strange combo here: a show that was incredibly legible, and then a show that made you work a little bit harder, and in both instances it feels like people didn't get it? [laughs] 

I don't know, what are your thoughts? What do you feel about this?

Ben

One of the big stories of this year is BL maturing as a genre and beginning to genre blend. Like in a lot of ways, La Pluie wants to straddle the line between BL and classic romance, and I think it does a pretty admirable job at it. Whereas Step by Step feels like the BL elements that it's trying to manage are holding it back from what it really wants to be. That feels like the sort of thing that inevitably happens with this type of outgrowth. 

La Pluie doesn't really want to say things sort of directly or inherently about queerness, it wants to talk about romance itself. And romance as a genre. Whereas Step by Step really wants to talk about queer stuff in a real world, and that's a whole lot messier to deal with. They both did some things really really well, and the audience connected to that. And what fascinated me so much about it was that the audience felt compelled to talk to each other about it. I felt like that happened maybe more organically on its own with Step by Step? Some of us kind of forced the issue on La Pluie. I know that I was part of it, like very, very directly, and it's been fun seeing people respond to that, by just us saying very earnestly: please tell us what you're thinking. And engaging with what people are writing. 

I think it's good for us and the genre to take it more seriously? It has been really fascinating for me seeing people engaging the way they are, but I legitimately feel a bit fatigued by it. And like, the last time I felt fatigue in BL, truly, was at the beginning. I know a lot of you don't watch as much content as I do, like you couldn't possibly do it, it's not healthy for you. I don't know how starved some of you have been for content that you can genuinely connect to, that can help you feel a little bit less lonely about yourself. And like I’d never gotten tired of queer cinema—I’d gotten hurt by it, but I'd never gotten, like, genuinely tired of just being in it that long. 

And I feel a little tired from all of the intense writing that La Pluie and Step by Step kind of demanded of us. It's a really fascinating time for me as a fan, to feel like the shows are demanding more of us as viewers, as we watch them, than to just be pleased by them or intrigued by them so that we'll engage and buy merch and stuff. It was really fascinating having two shows this season that really feel like they wanted us to think about things along with them.

Nini

I know that you and I have talked about that feeling of fatigue, like for me, this is the most anything I've watched in years. The level of exhaustion that I felt, and then to have these two shows sort of spring up at the end of the season, and demand—you’re correct—demand my attention…not just in terms of the shows themselves, but then in the reaction to the shows. It's sort of left me a little hollowed out, almost, a little wrung out? I don't know yet if in a good way or a bad way. It's yet to be seen. 

I remember saying to you at one point, I was like, I need something mindless to just sit and watch for the next couple of weeks, at least. Or, like, maybe longer, I just need something that I don't need to think about. And that's not a place that I'm accustomed to being in media? Because I am normally the let's get deep into it, let's get into the guts, put your arm in and come back with a beating heart kind of girl when it comes to the stories. And right now I'm just like, eh, I want something shallow and surface that I don't have to think too much about, please, just for a little while. And then I can re-engage my brain later. It's a very strange place for me to be in, I don't think it's a place that I've ever been in? But yeah these these two shows, they took it out of me, I gotta say. 

And that's how we end the season ladies and theydies! We are a little wrung out, and we'll probably talk about that a little bit more in the Lagniappe. But yeah! We tired, y'all. [laughs]

Ben

It’s gonna be fascinating, like, getting to listen back over this, because we talked really in the season about how slow it was for me to get into the spring season, coming off of the the winter hangover from Moonlight Chicken, Utsukushii Kare, My School President and The Warp Effect. And it's weird now at the end of the spring season, where…I don't necessarily feel like a tired hangover from it? It's a hard feeling to describe because the winter shows were really good, really hit something in me…

Nini

The winter shows were emotionally intense. There was like a heavy emotional hangover coming off of the winter. I don't feel that emotional hangover now, but I feel mentally drained.

Ben

Yeah, it's a far more cerebral feeling, and like the thing for me is, I grow stronger on that feeling. [both laugh] It's gonna be, it’s gonna be hard for me if these new shows don't keep up! ‘Cause, it's what I want! I do not want to yuck anyone's yums, like, there is absolutely a place for fluff in this genre. I will never, ever vote against the silly and fun shows. I just also really love meaty shows that make me think really hard while I'm watching them. And I love when that feels intentional—like we do a lot of hard thinking on our own about these shows, but damn is it satisfying when it feels like the show itself is in that conversation with us. And I really hope that this isn't the last time we have an Adult Swim episode because we got a bunch of really thinky shows to think about. 

Like, I was very harsh to Step by Step when we talked about that show, but I don't want Tee to stop thinking as hard as he does. I want him to stay in the guts of trying to unpack where queer people fit in modern Thai cinema. That's a really important thing to figure out, and queer people should be part of that conversation. And like even if I didn't think this was the best execution of his ideas, I don't want that conversation to get missed because his show didn't land consistently for everyone.

Nini

I'm tired y'all. I'm so tired.

Ben

[laughs] I’m so energized. Keep it coming.

Nini

My brain hurts! And this is the shit that I normally love, but my brain, it hurts, and my brain, she needs a break! And so, a break she shall have. [laughs] 

We'll be back at you next time with the Lagniappe, but that's it for us now! We are just going to wrap it up on Adult Swim. 

Our first Adult Swim episode: may there be others. We out! Say bye to the people, Ben.

Ben

Peace.

#podcast #lgbtq #step by step #la pluie #thai bl #ben and nini's conversations #the conversation #on art #season 3 #summer 2023 #summer series #la pluie the series #la pluie meta #step by step the series #step by step meta #man trisanu #ben bunyapol #title tanatorn #pee peerawich #suar kritsanaphong #copter nuntapong #bruce sirikorn #tee bundit #Spotify

[pernillecfcw]

Summer series ends on a high 🤩

#chelsea fc #summer series #pl summer series #ending it on a high #dortmund next week #football #blueisthecolour #up the chels #cfc #chelsea football club #premier league #first bit of silverware #we are looking good #football pictures #gabriel slonina #malo gusto #thiago silva #ben chilwell #christopher nkunku #carney chukwuemeka #enzo fernandez #andrey santos #proud of the team #season starts in two weeks

[mindenerwa]

your new favourite duo 💫

#nicolas jackson #mykhailo mudryk #chelsea fc #love them #premiere league #summer series

[penguinclover]

Daily 137

My friend on Facebook keep calling me "head chef of the GreenBlue restaurant" which I dont even know why but laugh for a good while so here

Let me introduce our new dish, "Summer Series" for my vacation.

#pokespe #pokemon special #oldrivalshipping #green x blue #blue pokespe #green pokespe #daily 137 #summer series #specialshipping

[lexxwithbooks]

📖: 𝑾𝒆'𝒍𝒍 𝑨𝒍𝒘𝒂𝒚𝒔 𝑯𝒂𝒗𝒆 𝑺𝒖𝒎𝒎𝒆𝒓 (𝑆𝑢𝑚𝑚𝑒𝑟 #3) ☀️🐚⛱

✍🏽: 𝐉𝐞𝐧𝐧𝐲 𝐇𝐚𝐧

Get the book! 🌟

#we’ll always have summer #jenny han #summer series #tsitp jeremiah #tsitp conrad #tsitp belly #tsitp books #tsitp #the summer i turned pretty #belly x conrad #isabel conklin #conradbelly #conrad fisher #belly conklin #belly x jeremiah #jeremiah fisher #second chance romance #best friend to strangers #friends to strangers #childhood friends #brother’s best friend #friends to enemies to lovers #love triangle #new books #books recommendations #books #books recs #tbr #libros #libros recomendados

[nier-reincarnation-library]

Dimos

#Nier Reincarnation #Drakenier #Dimos NieR #Abyssal series #Bloodless series #Celebratory series #Dissenting series #Abstract series #NieR #CharacteR Archives #summer series

[pardonzo-bean]

These books were terrible and yet I could not stop reading them.

I’m ready to start obsessively watching the Prime series now.

#the summer i turned pretty #summer i turned pretty #bookworm #belly x conrad #belly conklin #reading #conrad fisher #tsitp #it’s not summer without you #we’ll always have summer #summer series #jenny han #team conrad #prime video #bookblr #book review #bookish #booklr #books and reading

[maximof]

baby's first premier league game feat. my group of not sports inclined friends repping afc richmond and me repping gay icon colin hughes 🏳️‍🌈✨

#ted lasso #colin hughes #afc richmond #premier league #summer series

[boldlyvoid]

making the chapter covers is like watching it become a movie

masterlist

#summer series

[the-conversation-pod]

Summer 2023 Ep 2 - The Eighth Sense

AND WE'RE BACK!

It seems like every season we're going to have a single show dominate the conversation and the zeitgeist so much that we have to dedicate an entire episode to it! This season it was the Korean-German team-up about a boy so sprung that he joined a surfing club even though he couldn't swim. Strap in for a long discussion!

Nini and Ben dive deep into The Eighth Sense to discuss the international nature of BL, the way film history plays into our stories, the role of forgiveness in our lives, and the role of community in queer development.

Listen on Apple Podcasts

Listen on Google Podcasts

Timestamps

The timestamps will now correspond to chapters on Spotify for easier navigation.

0:00 - Welcome 1:04 - The Eighth Sense 18:00 - The Relationship Between the Seniors and Juniors 27:45 - The Hedwig Incident 36:32 - Ae Ri 42:50 - Ji Hyun and Jae Won 50:38 - Joon Pyo and Boss Lady 56:28 - Let's Talk About the Kissing (and Episode 6) 1:06:21 - The Party Scene and Forgiveness 1:17:14 - On a Possible Second Season 1:24:10 - Checking in Two Months Later

The Conversation: Now With Transcripts!

We received an accessibility request to include transcripts for the podcast. We are working with @ginnymoonbeam on providing the transcripts and @lurkingshan as an editor and proofreader.

We will endeavor to make the transcripts available when the episodes launch, and it is our goal to make them available for past episodes. When transcripts are available, we will attach them to the episode post (like this one) and put the transcript behind a Read More cut to cut down on scrolling.

Please send our volunteers your thanks!

1:04 - The Eighth Sense

Ben

Welcome to The Eighth Sense episode! Nini and I had so much to say about this that we decided to give it its own episode, separate from our overall consternation from whatever is going on in the land of K-BL, because this felt distinct. This was a piece of work from a German and a Korean filmmaking team, and it created unique results. So we're going to speak to you all for the next hour and a half? [laughs] about it, and then we'll come back at the end with some reactions to the show and how we're feeling about it a few months later.

Nini

Let's go.

Nini

We are here today to talk about The Eighth Sense, and only The Eighth Sense. Benjamin. What is The Eighth Sense about?

Ben

See I had her a little bit annoyed before we started talking. She gives my full name because she's still mad at me for being obnoxious. The Eighth Sense —

Nini

[laughs]

Ben

The Eighth Sense is an age gap college romance between a new freshman from the Korean countryside and a very wealthy Korean man, who is the heir of his family, who's recently back from military service and trying to finish school. They kind of meet by happenstance at the freshman's job and instantly have a connection between them which they both find themselves drawn to and pulling on. 

And over the course of the show the freshman, Ji Hyun, ends up joining the surfing club to hang out with Jae Won, the senior, and a romance blossoms between them… but we hit a lot of very familiar western queer storytelling drama beats. It blends fairly well with the Korean storytelling beats, as these two eventually choose each other as they're trying to move forward with their lives. Much drama ensues because of the older boy’s deep mental health issues. It's a really simple plot. It's just incredibly well executed.

Nini

Well, let's talk a little bit about that execution. So this is a… it's a Korean production but it's co-directed by a Korean director, Baek Inu, and a German director, Werner du Plessis. And I think that that interplay between the two filmmaking styles, between some of the hallmarks of Korean filmmaking and then some of the hallmarks of like classic German bildungsroman… They interplay really interestingly I think, in terms of the way that it's executed. A lot of people are saying that The Eighth Sense made them think of Skam? I have not watched Skam so I can't really speak to that, but in terms of certain aspects of the techniques of the filmmaking that I've seen, in terms of lighting and color and all of those things, I could see the comparisons that they're making. 

But I feel like this show… it's something all its own? We've talked on this show about how K-BL was starting to get a little repetitive and feel like it wasn't, you know, using its time well and all those other things. And I think that those are criticisms that you can't level at The Eighth Sense. It does use its time well. I feel like it is well thought through, I feel like it uses its budget well, I feel like it… really engages me, like I'm not going to forget these characters. I'm not going to forget Ji Hyun, Eun Ji, Tae Hyung, Jae Won, Joon Pyo, Yoon Won, [laughs] I'm not going to forget these characters. You know what I mean? These characters have sort of touched something inside of me, particularly Jae Won. 

I feel like it came along at just the right time for me to not write off K-BL. [laughs]

Ben

I mean, is it really K-BL, though?

Nini

Well, that's the question isn't it? Because a lot of people are like, ‘oh this isn't, this isn’t BL.’ I think it's very firmly BL, but I don't know how much it feels like K-BL.

Ben

It is not relying on… the tropes or beats of traditional yaoi, as evolved by Thailand's fiddling with the formula, and what's recently been happening in Korea over the last three years-ish. When you called it like a German coming of age thing, I can feel some of those influences here. In terms of the pacing, and the knowing. 

So one of the things that BL is not very good at doing that I don't always enjoy is… BL doesn't know how to make characters always gay. Like their queerness activates when it's relevant, because they're thinking about it now. It isn't… built really into the way the character is functioning. But when you're writing queer cinema, a queer character is always queer. It is always complicating their life in some way, and that feels present here with Ji Hyun and Jae Won. Particularly when it comes to the ways that two of them engage with each other. 

Ji Hyun gets clocked constantly by everyone, because he's obvious to them. Jae Won and he bump into each other at the restaurant and recognize each other, flirt outside of the restaurant. Ae Ri recognizes these things in him very quickly and she starts covering for him; Eun Ji sees this in him right away, and beefs with him immediately over Jae Won. Yoon Won I think picks up on it right away, which is why she's always calling him cutie. And I think the boss picks up on it too, which is why she's kind of protective of him. 

This works for me because he's so clearly different, and I like how he clearly had these big dreams about ‘I'm going to move to the city and I'm going to live my best gay life.’ Then he moved to the city and got scared, because it's such a big place, all these strangers, and it's confusing because he's not used to dealing with urban systems… And so like, he immediately retreated a little bit. He just picked up a job, so he would only have to deal with one person, because it's like a one woman operation and like the freshman temp worker she's relying on? [laughs] And I think that's one of the big things that separates it for me with most of the BL we've experienced, like Ji Hyun always feels gay for me, in the way that Ji Hyun is very… protective of himself but very honest in general. Like Ji Hyun doesn't offer himself up easily to other people, but he's consistently honest and forthright with them. And like, after his big ol’ incident — where he almost dies, and I’m calling it ‘the incident’ [laughs] — he turns really sassy, but he's still being honest, he's just not tempering that. And also he's a little bit pissy, because he has a right to be. 

So like that's the biggest, I think, line between like, BL per se, and what we might call queer cinema, when I'm watching them. Like their queerness is not active only when they're flirting, like other BL characters often feel for me.

Nini

Hmmm. That's something to ponder… It is clear that Ji Hyun does get clocked pretty regularly. You know I always have a soft spot for the ones who can't hide, and… so, I can get like why the boss is protective of him, why Joon Pyo is protective of him — like, even though Joon Pyo doesn't really know? He knows something, but he doesn't really know that Ji Hyun is queer, and it's this really funny scene when he finds out in the end, and he's just really upset that, you know, Ji Hyun didn’t tell him that he had a boyfriend. 

Ji Hyun feels recognizably queer, in some intangible way? Like I think about my gay friends and my gay family, and… that thing that you said about a person who is gay being gay all the time and not just when they're flirting with somebody? [laughs] That really resonated [both laugh] Thaaaat really resonated, and I think is also a little bit of shots fired for some of BL.

Ben

I don't know that I want to fire shots at the other dramas in this regard, because… it's not fair. Because some of these things are intangible, you can't really always do them really well or correctly. It's not like I have obvious guidance, like ‘hey, here are the five tips to make your character seem authentically queer when you're writing your little stories!’ [both laugh] And like, that's not fair. 

What I can do as a amateur critic, is point out that this character reads queer to me: from the little gay rainbow lamp he has, to the way he had big dreams for the city then feels a little bit disappointed about it, to the way he sees a really hot boy and immediately decides to do — to join a dangerous club just to get some dick. Like that's the kind of dumb shit that baby gays do! Like can you swim? No. So you joined the surfing club? Was — was the dick even that good? Yeahhh. All right, well, shit! [both laugh]

Nini

The man said that, before he nearly died, he was the happiest he had ever been in his life. He literally said that. [laughs]

Ben

This poor boy's whole brain got rearranged by some good dick! God damn.

Nini

Our other protagonist is Jae Won. Jae Won is a poor little rich boy, he's a tragic figure with a tragic past.

Ben

He's a sad little meow meow.

Nini

He really is the saddest little meow meow. It’s up in the air whether he's closeted or not. I don't feel like he is? But I also feel like he doesn't advertise. Because it doesn't feel like any of his angst about Ji Hyun is about the idea of him dating a guy. It doesn't feel that way.

Ben

Jae Won feels therapized. He… definitely is aware of his queerness, and seems mostly inconvenienced by it. His father is described as aggressive, and there's all of these pressures on him to be a certain kind of man, and a certain kind of son. Like they get mad about how emotional he is, they get mad that he's out drinking with his friends… so he's definitely been forced to be closeted about it? So I think he is definitely aware of it, and the reason why I think he's aware of it is, Ji Hyun calls him out on it in the last episode, when he's like, ‘You had a lighter in your pocket, the first night you met me.’

Nini

It's not that I feel like he doesn't know himself, like he knows himself, I think that much is clearly obvious in the story, he knows himself. The question is whether the people around him know. I feel like Eun Ji definitely knows, that's why she's so im— one of the reasons she's so immediately hostile to Ji Hyun, because she knows.

Ben

She knows, but I don't think he's told her. He just feels really modern about it, like, yes he's gay, if you ask him directly he'd probably just shrug and be like yeah, sure, whatever, but people aren't going to ask him that. They don't want to cross that line, because they want to use him, and trying to embarrass him about that is just gonna get you iced out of his life. Again, like we know that the surfing dudes hadn't really considered it, because they're like no, Jae Won's not that way. That's also like the men, though. Like every single girl in the story clocked every single gay boy the whole time. The boss, Eun Ji, Ae Ri, Yoon Won, all clocked Jae Won and Ji Hyun. And Jae Won didn't even know about it, because Yoon Won was like ‘you better do right by that boy,’ he's like ‘what are you talking about?’ and she was like ‘girl!’ and he was like ‘all right, shit.’ [laughs]

Nini

Jae Won is not closeted but he's not out either. Let's put it that way.

Ben

I think he was closeted by default, but he had already worked through the, ‘if I really connect with someone, I will step out for them.’ And you can feel that, with the way he tries to casually say to the boss, ‘yeah I have feelings about my boyfriend,’ and the way he's forthright about it with Ji Hyun. Because I feel like he had emotionally prepared for the moment? And once he decided to commit to it, all of that work came out right away.

Nini

Well, even before he says it to the boss or to Ji Hyun, he says it to the guy at the, at the rest stop, when they're heading off to that fateful trip. It's not even a big deal for him to say that. And that's why I was wondering like, well is he closeted or is, has just nobody just ever asked him about it? And I think I'm going to land on your side of things here with, probably nobody ever asked him about it, and he didn't feel the need to announce it.

Ben

Right, and I think that's where — that's, that's mostly how he reads to me.

Nini

Do you think that Tae Hyung knew?

Ben

Yes, because he kisses him all the time. But, he knows it in the way that stupid-ass straight boys know. Where they know, and they want the attention, and they kind of want it, but they would have to be gay and they can't actually do that. Which is why he gets so… bothered about Jae Won caring about other stuff. It's the same thing we see all the time, he gets mad that he's not being paid attention to, or that Jae Won doesn't care about the things he wants him to care about. Or isn't being as miserable as they want him to be.

Nini

You know what I think is actually a subtle hint? In the first few episodes of the show, the way that Tae Hyung keeps pushing Jae Won and Eun Ji together, keeps pushing them towards each other, keeps bringing Eun Ji into the spaces. Now that I'm thinking about it, at the beginning I just never quite figured out why it mattered so much to him? But now, it makes like a strange kind of sense, if he knew or if he at least suspected… why he would keep shoving Eun Ji at him.

Ben

Right, because if she — he chooses Eun Ji, it's at least, like, the woman that he was okay with, I guess. And like it gives him some sort of weird control or investment in whatever they have going on. I feel like at some level Tae Hyung knows. But again like that's part of why this show feels more queer for me than some other stuff, because we're having this really complex conversation about who knows, doesn't know, at what level do they know, what does their knowing imply about the way they perceive Jae Won — like that's the world real queer people exist in. Where it isn't just who knows, it's what do they do with the knowledge.

Nini

I'm really recasting, like, my initial reactions of the whole Tae Hyung, Jae Won thing.

Ben

I mean if you, I don't know if you remember, I hated that motherfucker from the very first time we saw him! [both laugh]

Nini

Ben could not stand his ass from jump.

Ben

Like, the very first episode I was like, ‘oh I hate this boy so much Nini!’ [laughs] and she was like ‘damn bro, they just had like one fight!’ and I'm like, ‘oh no, it was not just one fight.’

18:00 - The Relationships Between the Seniors and Juniors

Nini

Speaking of fights between Jae Won and Tae Hyung, perfect segue. 

Ben

Let's talk about him tagging that ass though.

Nini

We're kinda jumping around here, and one of the reasons that we're jumping around is I feel like, talking about The Eighth Sense, like it doesn't really, it's not really useful to talk about it in some kind of chronology, or in terms of the plot. The plot's there and the plot is good… 

Ben

The plot is… a country boy snags a chaebol. It's very good.

Nini

Yeah, the plot is very simple, I feel like The Eighth Sense, the, the real meat of the discussion is in the relationships — in all the different interactions that these characters have bouncing off of each other, in some of the ways that they interact with society? I feel like that's more of where the meat of talking about the story comes from. There's going to be a lot of jumping around in this discussion I think because of that.

Ben

We’ll talk about Tae Hyung, but more specifically we'll talk about how strong the characterization is for all of these characters. Like the biggest thing that's interesting about this show is, all the seniors are miserable horrible people.

Nini

Terrible. [laughs]

Ben

All of the freshmen are not — but some of them could be. I think that's Bit Na's role in the story. Yoon Won, Eun Ji, and Jae Won are all seniors who probably should have graduated already, but because of the funding model of school and how you need to get a job, they're all stuck and they hate it. They're having the millennial problem of, we were told that if we were really good at school and we went to college and checked all the boxes, we would get decent jobs, marry wives, live in the suburbs, have a van, and have two point three kids. And uh… we didn't! And we've lived through crisis after crisis for… literally 22 years, and it sucks! 

And so like I get why Yoon Won, Eun Ji, Jae Won, and Tae Hyung are so frustrated and so pissed about all of it. And like they can't even be happy about any of it, like Tae Hyung wasn't drafted, but it's not like it worked out for him, it's not like he got to do anything useful with school, and like get ahead and go work somewhere, which is why like he's glomping back on to Jae Won. Because he's his last hope, that maybe somehow Jae Won getting control of his dad's company will get him a useful job, and maybe he won't be such a piece of shit. But he's such a selfish prick that he can't do anything with it. 

Eun Ji is clearly a status chaser, and she really wants to be the wife of a chaebol. And that's why she's trying to lock Jae Won down. 

Yoon Won is the only person that Jae Won ends up having a real connection with, because she's frustrated, but she's trying to do something positive, like ‘hey I'm gonna be stuck in school for a while but I'm [gonna] try and keep the surfing club afloat while I'm here. I hope you can get a chance to relax and I'm really glad that you came back and helped us out because — you’re really good at it, and I'm really glad that you're here.’ Like, she's the only person who's thankful for Jae Won's presence because he offered it. And she asks for literally nothing else beyond him except, ‘so hey you feel like getting a pizza and a beer with me? I really want to go to this place but the guy only speaks English even though he lives in fucking Korea.’

Nini

[laughs] That was bizarre.

Ben

And he's gonna be such a dick about it! That felt like a dig at foreigners moving to Korea.

[both laugh]

Nini

I completely agree that Yoon Won feels like the only person who is interested in Jae Won and not in what Jae Won can do for them, in terms of the seniors. And that's why their… thing works. And Jae Won says it when they're drinking in that foreigner's bar. He's like, ‘you know, when we started school I really didn't like you. But now you're kind of the only person who—’ [laughs] Basically he tells her that she's the only person he doesn't hate, so.

Ben

Right? And he call — she calls him out, like ‘I know you hated me, you piece of shit. But it's fine. We're cool now.’ [laughs] But again like, in terms of like, early episodes… she's the only person in the series [who] respects what he wants. She's like ‘Okay, I'll take the new kid because he clearly can't swim. You take the two girls, because you gay, you ain't gonna do nothing with them girls. Teach them girls how to swim right.’ He's like ‘No. I wanna go with the boy.’ She's like ‘Girl. Are you sure?’ and he's like ‘Nah nah nah, I really wanna go hang out with this boy.’ ‘Allll right.’ [laughs] 

But again, everyone else disrespects him — ignores his stated desires, constantly. Yoon Won is the only person in the show who, when he says he wants something, she lets him have it. And then she's like ‘Hey the cute boy drew a picture of you… wanna see it?’

[both laugh]

Nini

She gives him so much shit in like her own way, I love it. You know I’m all about besties who give you shit, you know that's my favorite, [laughs] that's my favorite trope. Besties givin’ you shit. 

But yeah, so you've got all the seniors who are stuck and miserable because, I mean, other than Jae Won — if they all came in at the same time, other than Jae Won because of his military service — they should have all graduated already. And the fact that they haven't, and they're all there just kind of, you know, sitting there miserable staring at each other, is a big commentary on everything. 

So compare them to all the freshmen. Now, the freshmen are… still young and hopeful and they have all this energy and all that stuff, and it’s such a contrast to the seniors who’re all fucking miserable. Even though there's fear there, particularly, like sort of shown up in the person of Ji Hyun, there's still this kind of enthusiasm? And then there's this brightness that comes off of them? And you kind of understand why Yoon Won and Jae Won gravitate, kind of, towards the freshman. And they feel protective of them, and they, they want them to have a good experience? That's one of the things that I really enjoyed about, for example, the surfing trip. They really invest in making sure that the freshmen have a good experience, like they keep the skeevy senior guys away from them…. they tell them they don't have to drink, they tell Tae Hyung, like, stop being a creep.

Ben

Right? They keep telling him to fuck off, they're like, ‘None of these rituals or things you're supposed to do that we did did anything for us. It didn't move us forward, it didn't make us closer to our seniors, it didn't help us succeed at school. We just got bullied by people who are older than us. And you hated it too, so chill the fuck out.’

Nini

Yeah! I like how invested they are, Jae Won and Yoon Won, in making sure that the freshmen have a good time, and that they're taken care of and protected. I really did like that. Like, it's almost like they want to help them preserve their innocence for a little bit longer, which I found was a great commentary to be quite frank… [laughs] I did love that. And then you also see, like you were mentioning in the character Bit Na, you're seeing somebody who could go along that trajectory towards misery, that landed Eun Ji and Tae Hyung where they are now.

Ben

Exactly, it's implied that she's doing all the things, like, you're Expected To Do(™), but there's a little bit of her being like ‘No I'm not gonna drink all that stuff from you’ and like at the end, like, she's furious with Tae Hyung. She's like, ‘No! I know that you've been causing problems for me, because you have a possessive crush on me. Fuck you. Get out of here.’

Nini

Scram! Beat it! [laughs]

Ben

Pulls out her little spray bottle: sks sks sks Move! [both laugh] Go on now, get!

Nini

So, she's sort of the antagonistic force that's pushing back against that stuff, while Ji Hyun and Ae Ri are more like that force that's laughing at that stuff. One is like, dismissive, and the other is… antagonistic. And it's two ways of dealing with the same thing.

Ben

I love how when the two of them start to bond, they just turn into like the meanest little catty duo. They're like ‘Oh well she hasn’t mentioned you at all” and “Oh has she really not? If I had a crush and had a best friend I know that I would be talking to my best friend about the crush, so… it's really embarrassing for you that she really hasn't mentioned you at all to her, right? Oh geez.’

Nini

[laughs] And he says that and then he doesn't tell Joon Pyo about his crush. Terrible.

Ben

And that's why Joon Pyo was pissed.

27:45 - The Hedwig Incident

Nini

Let’s talk about Ji Hyun and Ae Ri being catty for a second. So, we've already seen Ji Hyun and Ae Ri in class making fun of, like people giving their presentations… for this class on, I guess some kind of film studies course or whatever, because they're doing these presentations about films that they've watched or whatever. So we've seen them doing their little mean girl duo act in class already, where they, you know, kind of quietly snicker at whoever is in front of the class at the point in time — which I mean, come on, who hasn't done that with your friend in class? [laughs] 

When Ji Hyun comes back from his accident, the one that they're making fun of — and this is the part that I wasn't quite sure what they were trying to say, because I didn't recognize the character. So at first I didn't know if it was a character we had already met or if it was just a character that we hadn't seen before. And I think not knowing that also made things a little more difficult to parse? Because you get the sense from the way that this character talks to them that this is a character we're supposed to know who it is. That we have seen before or something. But I don't recognize him. Anyway. So this character is doing their presentation on Hedwig and the Angry Inch, which is a… queer classic?

Ben

I have not commented on this particular moment on Tumblr, because I didn't feel like getting flamed? But this is The Conversation! So I will say what needs to be said. So a big part of this film critic class that they're taking is that most of these presentations people are giving are only doing surface level reads of the source material. And this guy's read is not that deep either, but he dresses as Hedwig and thinks like he should be getting a lot of points for that. Whereas, they give a really solid read that understands the themes being explored in the Park Chan-wook film…

Nini

I’m a Cyborg, But That’s Okay?

Ben

They give a really solid presentation, they clearly understood the themes involved, but their presentation didn't have a lot of pizzazz, and they barely passed the class team. But they don't really care, because they took what they needed from the course: they engaged with the source material, they understood it, and they moved on, whereas he's cosplaying as Hedwig, a gay character. Does he appreciate the life of this gay character? 

Which for me felt like this show taking shots at performative queerness happening with BL in particular. A lot of these boys are cosplaying as gay: do they understand gay people? Do they understand the lives we live? Like you're sitting here beefing with me, an actual gay, and my hag over our presentation. But do you have any appreciation for who we are? Why don't you go ahead and scamper your ass down a little gay district off here and figure out what gay people actually live through? Like people didn't like that because they thought it read as transphobic, which it probably did, and I'm not going to begrudge people what they took from it. But for me I read it as you can cosplay as us, but you ain't us.

Nini

Hm. So I have never watched Hedwig, so… I couldn't really get a read on what they were trying to do with this? Because I didn't know if what the guy was saying had any weight of understanding to it.

Ben

It didn't… like even just knowing the film by reputation alone, and knowing older gay men who loved it, his read on it was weak. And it's, that's what, that's what I got, like — I don't want to drag anybody who is like ‘this is transphobic, and gay people should be better’ — it's also a surface level read on what's going on there. You're reacting to the fact that they diss a guy in drag, but not why they dissed a guy in drag — who started beef with them! I come from the school of talk shit get hit. So. [laughs]

Nini

[laughs] My main reaction to it, like I said because I, I don't have the… the context. Right? So my reaction to it was just kind of confused? I think that's what my overwhelming reaction was. I was confused by what was happening, I wasn't sure. I'm seeing all the takes, you know saying this is transmisogyny, this is transphobic, this is this that and the other, but the only thing that didn't read right to me about those takes — again, acknowledging that I didn't have the context — was that I don't know that this guy is part of queerness.

Ben

You know he ain't one of us because he couldn't walk in heels! You don't cosplay as Hedwig and not walk in heels.

Nini

Fair.

Ben

It's fine… The reason why I let everybody have it is, it was a deep cut and it wasn't for everybody. And that's kind of why I love The Eighth Sense because, the people who don't do their homework, who don't do the research on the genre history, who don't watch this stuff, who don't really engage in complex interactions with queerness — they kind of miss these sort of things. And I think that's okay, like, does the interaction read a little transphobic? It does. Do gay men's interactions with drag queens and other trans people often read transphobic? Hell yeah, they do! But I got it. 

Like, is it a great interaction? No, but… you ain't gonna last long in queer spaces if you can't handle a botched interaction.

Nini

I feel like it was probably the only really clunky part of the show, in that it wasn't clear. I feel like everything else that happened in the show was, it was very clear — it was abundantly clear what the show was saying, what the characters were saying and feeling, what they were trying to do. But I feel like this moment, this particular interaction, was the only time I felt like the show got a little… got a little clumsy.

Ben

It's the only indulgent thing that the show really does. It's the German director's favorite film, and he was taking a dig at people who get caught up in the fact that there's… gender performance stuff in Hedwig, and the wearing of the wig and dressing as a woman stuff, but they're missing, maybe the meat of the story. They focus on the wigs and the makeup, but not the person and the story. 

I have this particular beef too, like — I had an interaction with a colleague about what parts of queer cinema that they should maybe check out. And they really just wanted me to validate the things they wanted to watch. And that's kind of how this guy reads to me… like, the gay boy in the room is laughing at his performance. ‘How dare you laugh at my performance, I know I did my fucking research, I know gay people!’ [both laugh] That's — that's how that felt for me. Like, bro, why are you in my face? Like, go drink your juice Shelby, shit!

Nini

When you just said it like that, it made me think about white gays appropriating the language of the ballroom.

Ben

Well yeah, exactly, that's exactly what it feels like! Like… you aren't us, but you're wearing us. And it's fine, like you can get your little grade, you can make your little coins. But like, the rest of us are still here, trying to create queer lives that have meaning and comfort to them. Are you going to be with us there? That’s, like, if we're going to beef with this show for being rude to a guy in drag… what have you done for us lately? Like you might be queer too, and I don't mean to make you feel bad… but also if you're queer and all you do is watch BL, there's way more work to be done sweetie! 

Let go of your beef about the Hedwig scene, go watch Hedwig. Go watch I'm a Cyborg, But That's Okay. Then go watch the fucking sequences where these kids gave weak-ass takes about these really classic films, and then understand why they were getting laughed at by the teacher too. Like sure you dressed as Hedwig, but do you appreciate her? No? Okay, you get a B plus, I guess. Thank you for wearing drag.

It's not the most elegant moment in the thing? But it's one of those moments that it's like: who knows and who doesn't know?

36:32 - Ae Ri

Ben

Let's just talk about some fun gay shit. Let’s talk about Ae Ri! [laughs]

Nini

Ae Ri’s an interesting character. Ae Ri is a Seoul kid, so she's not like a country mouse innocent like Ji Hyun. She's with it, she knows what's going on, she, she understands the haps, you know what I mean? She's savvy. And she becomes Ji Hyun’s…

Ben

She becomes a hag. Let's call her what she is. Let's give her the term of endearment that we used to hand out to the best of the ladies.

Nini

She becomes the hag, yes, she becomes his fairy godmother. The way that she just kind of scoops Ji Hyun up? And is just like, ‘oh you poor little baby, come, let me help you because you very clearly need help’ [laughs] I just think that's delightful. I think that the way that their friendship develops — because at first Ji Hyun is convinced that she has a crush on him. And honestly, I'm not sure that he was wrong.

Ben

Elaborate.

Nini

I think that she clocked him when she had actually like, spent time with him?

Ben

I don't think she was paying attention to him until he drank the — until he drank the liquor for them, and then she's like, ‘Why would he do that, because all he does is look at Jae Won — Ohhh.’ [laughs]

Nini

Yeah, I feel like that's, that's where we go with this, it’s like ‘Aww! He's nice! Let me go scoop him up because he clearly needs help! Because he is not going to make it like this.’

Ben

He did though, like he needed somebody to be like ‘Bro. If you're trying to be closeted, because it seems like you are, let me just be clear: you’re doing a terrible job sweetie. Also? Them fits is busted. We need to buy you some clothes, like immediately. We're going shopping right now.’

Nini

It's like, ‘You’re trying to get Jae Won's attention? This is not how you do it. Okay, we're gonna need to accentuate those eyes darling. Ok?’ [laughs] 

She's the best girl. She ends up being protective of Ji Hyun, and because she's protective of Ji Hyun she also becomes protective of the people that Ji Hyun cares about, and Ji Hyun cares about Jae Won. So she becomes protective of Jae Won [laughs]. And she has claws! And she will use them. We talked about it earlier, but that scene where she just very neatly — she and Ji Hyun very neatly take Tae Hyung apart. The reason that they take him apart is because he goes for Jae Won, and Jae Won just looks really sad about it, and they're like ‘Not to-fuckin-day! We are going to end your entire career.’ 

She's the best girl. She's the best girl. I want her to have everything that she wants. I don't know what she wants, because it's not really clear, but I want her to have whatever she wants. She just seems to be vibin’, and I always love a character who's vibin’.

Ben

The reason why I like Ae Ri is, in a room of seniors being awful to her friend, she stood up and challenged them — and that was scary for her. Like she broke down in tears after that confrontation with the other seniors and Eun Ji. If you read that a certain way you're like, well is she weak or whatever? Like no, it's, it's scary to stand up in front of a bunch of people who are being awful and tell them like no, you guys are mean and this is not right.

Nini

That confrontation among the surf club after Ji Hyun has his accident is so ugly. You really see how self-centered these people are, these seniors. They do not care that this kid nearly died. 

Like yeah ok, they're upset about their club getting canceled because it's not technically fair. It's not like, you know, this was a club activity that he got hurt at. So yeah, ok, it's not technically fair, but the claws that they have out! And the way that they completely dismiss that at this point Ji Hyun is still in the hospital! It's not like he's back. He's still in the hospital, and they are so catty and vicious.

Ben

I don't even know if he was conscious at that point.

Nini

Yeah! He's — like he's, they're all so vicious about it. It's like they don't care whether he lives or dies? They don't care about anything other than the fact that this is inconveniencing them. And… that, Ae Ri takes that in, she like feels that, she internalizes that, and she realizes: y'all don't give a fuck about us. 

Which, which we’re dealing with like intergenerational relationships, and you're in a situation where you are the low man on the totem pole. You expect a certain amount of care and consideration to be taken with regards to you, because you're, you're the low man on the totem pole, you can't protect yourself necessarily. You need these people to care for and protect you. And… realizing, quite clearly and unambiguously, that these people will not protect her. They will not protect any of them. They don't care. Like I can understand why she breaks down.

Ben

Exactly. Like it's terrifying to realize that the people you're asked to respect do not give a shit about you. They'll demand abasement all the time, but when some shit popped off, did they care about Jae Won? Did they care about Ji Hyun? No, they're like: wow this is awfully inconvenient for us isn't it.

Nini

It was so ugly. I just remember being shocked, like you — I felt that one, you know what I mean? It wasn't just like, the intellectualization of what was happening on screen, I felt that deep somewhere inside of me.

42:50 - Ji Hyun and Jae Won

Ben

My appreciation for The Eighth Sense is more intellectual than it is emotional. I think it's very excellent: I gave it a 9.5 when I rated it? But I'm not… obsessed with the romance of this the way I might have been in another show. I like the way this one unfolds; I really like the way these two talk to each other. I like the way they see each other, I like that they totally misunderstood each other after the near-death crisis moment, and I like that other people pulled their heads out of their asses for them, so that they could be together, and then they followed through on that. 

But because this is just a very ‘boy likes boy’ sort of story, there isn't really a whole lot to say about the romance, but I do think we should take some time to unpack how we see Jae Won and Ji Hyun engaging with each other.

Nini

Yeah, so let's do that. These two are, as you would have said before, drawn to each other from the start, like Jae Won clocks Ji Hyun in the restaurant, Ji Hyun clocks Jae Won… I haven't rewatched the first couple of episodes as yet, but I think I remember that when Jae Won goes outside to smoke, Ji Hyun follows him?

Ben

Ji Hyun is outside, maybe on like a break or whatever? Just decompressing after a stressful moment, and all of Jae Won and his friends are maybe thinking about leaving. And then Jae Won asks for a lighter so he can light a cigarette.

Nini

He asks for the cigarette first, because he doesn't have a cigarette. He asks for a cigarette and he asks for a lighter, which is why I thought I remembered Ji Hyun following him outside, because the lighter that he gives him is the gas match for the restaurant, not like a, a standard bic. It's the big… gas match that he uses so — to light the cigarette for him, and he gives him two cigarettes. One for now and one one for later.

Ben

Jae Won was definitely flirting in a subtle way, and then Ji Hyun responds in a way that's like, I see you, but it both gave them the chance to back off of it and just write it off. Which is where I started to really appreciate the show, because… BL flirting is too overt sometimes.

Nini

It’s a dance that I've seen before, this kind of, I think you are but are you? And there's like these little subtle signals, and all these other things… I mean I don't need to tell: you're gay, you know.

Ben

[laughs] No no Nini! Go on!

Nini

Hilarious. [both laugh] Fine, read me.

Ben

Nah, it's, it's legitimately fun for me to see what other people are picking up on.

Nini

The thing is that it's so easy to dismiss, and it has to be. So these two, they clock each other, they do the dance, you know — ‘are you? I think you are, but are you? I think you are’ kind of dance.

Ben

What's so fun about them dancing is, like it could have been a one off moment. But then Ji Hyun joins the surfing club. And Ji Hyun forces Jae Won to see him. Like ‘No, my name is Ji Hyun, what's yours? You said you wanted to be friends. Were you just bullshitting me, or were you just flirting?’

Nini

Yeah, Ji Hyun is actually pretty…

Ben

He's so brave! I love him!

Nini

He is pretty forward for a baby gay, I will say that.

Ben

He knows who he is. And he sees a boy in pain — who's very pretty — and he's like, ‘I can help him.’ Not ‘I can fix him.’ ‘I can help him’ — Ji Hyun doesn't really demand anything of Jae Won really. He just won't let Jae Won fully push him away, and continues to offer him emotional support. He's incredibly patient, in a way that maybe city folk aren't used to.

Nini

Being city folk myself I can't, like, speak to city versus country in that regard, because I simply don't have the country experience.

Ben

I'm from Louisiana! [laughs]

Nini

The extra shot in that daiquiri gettin to ya, huh?

Ben

It really is. We are two-thirds of the way through this 32 ounces? That's a lot. [laughs]

Nini

There is something to be said for like, the way that Ji Hyun is… he's brave, he's forward, but he does it in this kind of quiet still way. He's pushing, there's definitely no doubt that he's pushing. But he's also not pushy?

Ben

When I was really on Twitter a lot, there’s this writer I used to follow, his name is Anthony Oliveira? He's queer, and he used to say like once or twice a day on his Twitter, he would say: Be brave enough to be kind. And that's where Ji Hyun fits for me. Even when he's being catty with people, it's only with people who came at him sideways. It's… the Hedwig boy coming at him for no reason, it's Eun Ji beefing with him for no reason, it's Joon Pyo picking on him a little bit, and him being like nah, fuck you bro. Other than that, he treats people really well. He gives people back the energy they give him. Like when they drag Tae Hyung, we mentioned this earlier, he was being shitty about Bit Na when she wasn't even there. And it's like bro, she don’t owe you nothin’. 

That's kind of what I love about Ji Hyun, because that's what he gives Jae Won. Jae Won flirted with him a little bit, he flirted back. He won't let Jae Won run away after starting that with him, like ‘Hm! You made a mistake — you should not have started this!’ And like, he's so confident at the end, like he's singing a song, like, ‘I won, ha ha!’

Nini

It's like ‘Jae Won’s miiiiiine, Jae Won’s miiiiiine’ [laughs] I love that so much! 

Ben

And Eun Ji’s like, ‘What’s it like to win?’ and he’s like ‘Hm, I’ll tell you later tonight!’ [laughs] And let's talk about that boy later that night, because he pinned that boy down… he's like oh no, we've been here for four hours of this TV show? It's time to get mine.

Nini

Ahhh, he literally said — what's the line that he said? ‘Don't laugh, you don't know what's coming next.’ 

Ben

Right? I was like, baby boy!

Nini

I loved that, I loved that!

Ben

I was in my — I was like yeeeeees bitch, yeeeeeees!

[both laugh]

Ben

Get! It! In!

Nini

He's like, I — he's like, I may look, I may look innocent but I ain't that innocent, you know, kind of…

Ben

He said I am suited, tooted, and booted!

Nini

He’s like, I have the internet, I know how these things go… [laughs]

Ben

It's a piece of cake to bake a pretty cake.

[both laugh]

Nini

God I hate you. [both laugh] Oh god…

50:38 - Joon Pyo and Boss Lady

Ben

Speaking of getting it in… let's talk about my boy Joon Pyo.

Nini

Hello! Hello. I said it in the clown server and I'm gonna repeat it on this podcast and I don't care how filthy it is okay? You just know — I'm sorry he might be a virgin, but I know that dick game bomb. I know it!

Ben

Look, we've been here a while; anybody who's still listening wants to be here. Let's talk about this for a second. Both Yoon Won and Joon Pyo are fat characters, who are seen enjoying food repeatedly in this show, and I am so glad that the two of them get to have what was clearly a very enjoyable makeout session with each other. And got to vibe for the rest of the night, and are confirmed to dip — off to wherever they're going on their own, so we got time to do our little gay thing we need to next to my rain! bow! lamp! in this room. 

My boy! He's been there for his homie the whole time, because he knows his friend gets lonely, he tries to make sure he does social things with him. Maybe he's a little overbearing, maybe he's a little codependent, but he had his boy’s back, and when his boy was down for the count? He starts working at his job, treating the boss with respect — because the boss seems like she might be picky about who she lets work with her. And she seemed to like Joon Pyo too! He brought that man his school supplies to make sure that he didn't have to lose a semester. And when he found out that his homie was gay, and the reason he almost died was for some dick? He was like, ‘shit was it worth it? Yes? We need to secure that bag, don't we? What we doing next?’

Nini

He was for it!

Ben

He stumbled briefly, he's like ‘Wait, Ae Ri knew before me?’ ‘Yeah, but she's from Seoul, she clocked me, I don't know.’ ‘All right, so she's just smart. Is she cool? Are we friends now, does that mean I get to hang out with cool people?’ My man is always looking at the best way to proceed forward. Ain't nobody doing it like my man Joon Pyo.

Nini

Not just that — when, after all this shit when Ji Hyun and Jae Won finally get back together, Joon Pyo clears out of the room that first night, he's like, ‘clearly y'all got some stuff to be doing and I don't want to be here while y'all do it.’ 

Ben

Right? Jae Won, he's like where'd you, like I felt — I felt it for Ji Hyun, like he wakes up in the morning and Jae Won's gone and like, that boy is not well. We knew that boy almost hurt himself in the show. Ji Hyun’s, ah, understandably worried, he goes out and he's just vibing with with Joon Pyo and he's like ‘well what's going on here?’ He's like ‘well Joon Pyo hung out outside all night for us, so. He brought us coffee, I'm honoring the man's commitment to us.’ And Joon Pyo’s like, ‘you're very pretty and popular, like… would you please take me clubbing?’ He's like ‘hell yeah, let's go clubbing. Let's get you some, son!’

Nini

[laughs] I love that!

Ben

And he's like ‘how do I need to dress, how do I need to be?’ He’s like ‘man you just need to be yourself’ … says the rich boy with all the nice clothes. [laughs]

Nini

You just know that Jae Won gonna make it rain on Joon Pyo at the club. He's going to make sure that he has everything.

Ben

I love Joon Pyo. I liked how there were kind people even in Seoul, like… like these are two freshmen clearly not used to Seoul who want to try specialty drinks for the first time. And I like how that bartender only teased them briefly, and then gave them the kind of popular drinks people their age might want to enjoy. Like that felt so gentle to me in a way, and it really stuck out when I watched it.

Nini

I feel like one of the things that the show gets right, that I really enjoyed, was that the businesses around a university are really accustomed to having students — particularly new students who don't know what the fuck they're doing. The people who work and who own and work in businesses around a university can really be quite nice like that.

Ben

That's how I feel about the boss character. She clearly loves young people, in a genuine way, and like Eun Ji thought she was really doing some stuff, ‘Oh I'm about to post a negative review on you on Yelp.’ And I like how she's like ‘Business improved as a result of your negative review, you insufferable waste of human flesh.’ [laughs] People were like, ‘So this mean catty person got chewed out by, by a business owner for being rude to the support staff? Yeah, we should go to that place.’

I like how the boss doesn't have a name, because it doesn't really matter if she has a name or not, because she's a temporary component of their lives. They're not going to really remember her name in a way that it matters, they're going to remember the things she said to them. They're going to remember how she treated them. They're going to remember like, how she helped them grow, how she pushed them to choose the things in their lives that they wanted. And like that's what matters about her character. Like, that's why they don't give her a name, because it doesn't matter what her name is, because she's so much older than them that we don't have to distinguish her. She is the positive older mentor figure in their lives.

Nini

I just think of her as such a, I mean, [laughs] Because you’re right, she doesn’t get a name, but she is so important to… not just having the story unfold, but she's important to the characters. 

56:28 - Let’s Talk About The Kissing (And Episode 6)

Ben

Let's talk about the kissing?

Nini

You go first.

Ben

Oh absolutely not. [Nini laughs] You of the… you of the, ‘all of the kissing is bad and I have notes?’ [laughs] 

No, it's fine, I'm gonna go first cause, I have more fun than you sometimes with these terrible kiss scenes. I will say that overall I enjoyed the execution of intimacy in this because everyone is very earnest, and I never feel like I'm not observing the character. This is shored up by the fact that Im Ji Sub gives absolutely terrible kisses with Eun Ji’s actress, on purpose. Straight actors will win me over so much in queer cinema when, when they're forced to kiss women, they look like they hate it. [laughs]

Nini

From a character standpoint I found it very believable.

Ben

Okay.

Nini

I found it extremely believable from a character standpoint. It wasn't pretty, but it's not supposed to be pretty? Jae Won is definitely more experienced than Ji Hyun, and that shows? It works for me, because I don't feel like Ji Hyun is supposed to be good at it. I feel like he's new to the whole thing, and because of that, the enthusiasm carries more for me than the technique. He's new to it but he's going for it in a particular kind of way. There's some little acting choices that Oh Jun Taek does, like he opens his mouth, like really wide when —

Ben

I loved it! The first time I thought, I was like, go — I was like go in baby boy!

Nini

I loved that, because — that's the kind of thing you do when you're learning to kiss, you overcompensate.

Ben

I love it.

Nini

You overcompensate when you're learning to kiss, it’s one of the things that you do, so I actually really like that detail? He looks like he wants to swallow Jae Won whole, and I really [laughs] really like that —

Ben

I fucking love it, I loved it so much —

Nini

I really love that and that's, that's the kissing at the end, but then the kissing sort of in between as well, is really… good, because those kisses — those kisses like towards the end… like they're together at that point, you know what I mean, it's a whole different thing. But the way that he kisses him before that, there is a little bit of tentativeness to it, some — in some parts? When they're surfing when they're on their trip, and he kisses them in the sea? Like, in terms of pretty? Those are the pretty, those are the prettiest kisses, like you know what I mean? Those, those aesthetically pleasing, all that good stuff, and you feel the sense of euphoria that's coming out of it? They are having this whole moment, there is so much joy in those kisses, which I truly love. 

And that's the other thing, like every — all the kisses have different moods. And you know I like to follow the trajectory of a relationship through the… to the intimacy and how it's being portrayed. So watching all the kisses and the, all the intimacy have different moods to it? Fantastic. I can't complain about it. Is it pretty? In a lot of instances, no. Does it feel real? Absolutely a hundred percent, all the time.

See? See?

Ben

I'm so relieved y'all, because normally I'm like ‘I really enjoyed that!’ and Nini's like ‘Hmmm… it was terrible’ and I'm like, ‘Awww.’ [laughs]

Nini

You know, I'm out here being Beyonce, ‘look at my technique,’ you know kinda thing [laughs] And Ben's like ‘No!’

[both laugh]

Ben

Leave them alone! They're doing their best, shit.

Nini

No… No but I really, I did, I did like it here. It's also maybe something to do with the style, because the style is so vérité? When you get an ugly kiss — quote unquote ugly kiss — in a vérité style, it feels different…

Nini

…than when you get a quote unquote ugly kiss in a style that's very polished.

Ben

I know what you mean. Like a —

Nini

You know?

Ben

Right, right. When it feels very fanciful and like ‘this is the best kiss that's ever happened,’ and you're like ‘oh but it wasn't.’

Nini

Yeah, exactly. [laughs] Precisely.

Ben

All right, so, while we're talking about the intimacy and stuff, I think we should talk about episode 6 reactions. First, I'm going to say that I loved episode 6, and I particularly enjoyed the way they handled the intimacy of episode 6? I think that was very appropriate for… the newness of the actors, the lack of an intimacy coordinator… 

I want to talk about the reaction. I don't know if you were on Tumblr for this, but there was a lot of discussion at the end of episode 6 where people were saying that episode 6 was not real. That it was fake — and I have written on Tumblr on record about how much I hated that take, and I want to unpack it here.

Nini

I did see the reactions on Tumblr, I mostly stayed out of it… I didn't really delve too much into The Eighth Sense discussion? I did do, like a little thing about Eun Ji, but I didn't really delve into The Eighth Sense discussion because I wanted it to play out. I felt like The Eighth Sense is one of those shows that… the episodic discussion wasn't going to give much. I felt like it's one of those shows where I needed to see the full, the full thing, to really… understand. Because it's not — as, as we said earlier in the show, it's not really one of those… episode by episode kind of things where the plot is what's driving it or whatever, it's really about the interactions that these characters are having, the way that they're interacting with their surroundings. 

It's why we've been jumping back and forth in discussion, and like it's how I felt about it while it was airing, so I really kinda, didn't really delve too much into the whole episode 6 discussion. I saw it, but… I wasn't getting into it.

Ben

I guess I'm just gonna deliver a little read while we're here then.

Nini

Okay!

Ben

[laughs] Here we go!

Nini

Here we go.

Ben

I don't want to disrespect anyone before we get into this. Let me be clear. Like, I do believe people were relying on very fair reads of traditional filming techniques, for why they believed that some parts of… episode 6 might have not been real, or that Jae Won would— became an unreliable narrator for it? But I think it's very important to talk about this. 

Just because it's unpleasant to consider does not mean it's not real. This is not meant to be read as disrespect to those of you trying to make sense of what's going on because you were nervous and concerned for Ji Hyun. That is valid. But, please understand, that for me — this is just me! As a queer person in these streets with y'all — whenever you all seemingly get squicked out because one of us isn't being entertaining or sexy? It makes me feel a little bit unwelcome. That's all I'm going to say about that, because you know who was right as of episode 7? Me! It was real!

[both laugh]

Ben

I was insufferable that week, I feel sorry for everybody who had to talk to me.

Nini

[laughs] I didn't think you were insufferable.

Ben

I felt insufferable. I was smug! My crops were watered.

Nini

The field in which you grew your fucks was barren.

[both laugh]

Ben

I don't want anyone to feel embarrassed if you just — felt called out by what I just said. But I would like you to approach these shows with just a little more kindness. The goal of watching TV is not to be right. It's about finding connection — with fictional people, and the real people who are also finding that connection with you. It can bring you closer to other people. It can help you understand other people. It can bring you just a little bit of peace and joy in an otherwise difficult time. There are no points to be awarded, you are not taking a test when you watch these shows. So please… be kinder to yourselves. Be kind to the people making these stories, and be kind to the people who are also watching them alongside you.

Nini

[singing] Message!

Ben

I'm a little drunk but that's all I'm going to say on that!

1:06:21 - The Party Scene and Forgiveness

Nini

Let's talk about that end scene, the party.

Ben

Okay, let's talk about forgiveness for the next thirty minutes. [laughs]

Nini

I think that's a good segue from what you just said: let's talk a little bit about forgiveness.

Ben

I'm gonna let Nini talk, because I just made you guys feel bad for like, probably 10 minutes of this edit. 

Here's the thing: Nini and I… came down on the side of forgiveness for this. But Nini and I are a little bit older than some of the viewers, so… I'll let you talk about the final scene and particularly how there were mixed reactions to Jae Won’s and Ji Hyun’s decision to reconcile, at a party, with Tae Hyung and Eun Ji: the two worst offenders of this particular story. Nini?

Nini

See here's the thing: I didn't read it as a reconciliation? And that's probably why I have a, like a different view of it. So the way that I read that is, when you're stonkingly giddy happy… when you are at a celebratory event, when you are… drinking, let's just be real about it… It is so easy to just be like, ‘You know what? I don't want to fight, I don't want to argue. I just want to let all this go… like, there's so much love in this club, I'm just gonna…’ [laughs] 

Ben

And there is love in this club tonight! Some of you don't even know.

Nini

That's part of it. That's definitely part of it. But also, you have to understand what's happening with Tae Hyung, and with Eun Ji in here as well. 

Tae Hyung is a dick. That doesn't change throughout the show. He was a dick at the start of the show, at the end of the show he's still a dick… nothing about him changes. But you get to understand the value that Jae Won finds in Tae Hyung. Because he… outright asks him, Tae Hyung asks him ‘Why are you still friends with me?’ because Tae Hyung doesn't even understand why Jae Won keeps him around. And what Jae Won says about that, he’s just like… Basically he tells him, ‘I keep you around because you don't mask and I find that really refreshing.’ That's basically what he tells him. 

And that makes so much sense to me. And it also makes me understand why he would just let the shit go, at this point. Because Tae Hyung's not going to change. We see that at the same party. He continues to try to hit on Bit Na. He has to get read to the ground by Bit Na for his bullshit. Tae Hyung is never going to change.

Ben

That's true. He's the most bitchless motherfucker in the whole show.

[both laugh]

Nini

Completely! A hundred percent. He's never going to change, and Jae Won finds that comforting. Also, I have seen men forgive each other for all kinds of shit? So that just read a hundred percent true to me. I have seen dudes fight, box, wrestle, nearly kill each other… and then two days later they're out together hanging out.

Ben

Dude I've seen them after the fight bloody, like crying, hugging each other like I love you bro! [laughs] And I'm like, the hell just happened?

Nini

That rang a hundred percent true to me… I think that if Tae Hyung and Jae Won stay in contact — because there's no guarantee that that's going to happen either, because they're coming to the end of things now. The fact that they're having this party because Yoon Won got a job means that things are starting to move. Where all the seniors were stuck before, things are now starting to move for them. They're coming to the end of this period of their lives anyway, so they've also got like a hefty whiff of nostalgia permeating the whole thing, and also? They don't know if they're gonna see each other really, after this. They don't know if they're going to stay friends. It's easy in that situation to just let the shit go, and I've seen the situation happen so many times before and I'm just kind of like, you know what? That rang true for me, I wasn't worried about that.

Ben

I’m with Nini. As a boy, I have friends like that. Where… you know who this person is: kind of a sad sack, kind of a shit heel, and you get it. But they're weirdly there? And so, you just accept these losses, like yeah he tried to get me kicked out of school but he failed, because he sucks, so… whatever. Was that annoying? Yes. Is he going to apologize for it? No. But he wouldn't be himself if he apologized. And like that's not great, but this is again a reflection of the current state of social… politics.

Nini

It's more of a question of, is this realistic? And to me, yes it is.

Ben

Nini and I are both from cultures that have carnival. And so like, I've seen this happen at Mardi Gras, where blood feuds have ended because, like, we ran into each other at a parade. And like, the right thing was said at the right moment, and people just let go of decades worth of beef. Like it can happen! And like, the question is like, does holding on to this anger at Tae Hyung help Jae Won take care of Ji Hyun? So let it go.

Nini

The way I can best describe it is: whatever, I'm over it. It's not like he's gonna, like make him like godparent to his first born or anything like that, I don't think that's where their relationship is going. I'd be surprised if they're speaking to each other in two years. For now, at a party? Everybody's happy, everybody's drinking. You're gonna go home with your boyfriend later and have a great time, like… [laughs]

Ben

Right? The music is good, the drinks are flowing, there's love in this club tonight.

Nini

The other one that everybody’s upset about is Ji Hyun forgiving Eun Ji. Now I also found that incredibly believable. Not just for party reasons but also for career reasons? Eun Ji is still his senior. The first thing he does, like when he walks up to her, is he apologizes for being snarky with her. In the moment and like the heat of battle so to speak, he might have popped off at the mouth, but he's gonna feel bad about it later. And I can see him, like, apologizing to her about it. And I can genuinely see her, having lost so comprehensively? Licking her wounds, taking a step back, and reassessing her entire life.

Ben

Here's the thing about the way she lost to Ji Hyun. What she realized from Jae Won handing her her entire ass was, Ji Hyun was never her enemy. She lost way before this boy showed up. And so all the beef she had with him in this whole competition for Jae Won? Was nil, because he said, ‘I saw you.’ And so all of the presumption she had about, like, what was at stake, is this a battle for Jae Won’s booty or whatever… Like none of that works out. He had already dismissed her. And he was adamant: he did not want to be with her, the whole time. So she feels like an asshole, because she's been in the wrong the whole time. 

And maybe like a part of her was true about this. Maybe she was just bitter that Jae Won was gone. She's mad about him being gone, but she didn't do right by him and she lied. That's the big thing, like she's been caught lying. There's no coming back from that. Whatever her goals were for Jae Won, she had to eat that bowl of shit, and set it aside. And like there's no value for her in beefing with Ji Hyun anymore, because it just further exacerbates how much of an asshole she is. This boy did literally nothing to her, and they are not equals in a struggle for the heart of a bisexual boy. She lost her chance before this boy showed up. And so it's actually good to see her becoming the senior she's supposed to be, now that she has some experience to maybe pass on and grow from.

Nini

I agree with that read, I really think that she's reassessing and reevaluating her entire life at this point? She's feeling a little vulnerable, she's feeling a little… raw. She’s feeling a little humbled, and so… when you're feeling that way, just what do you do? You sit quietly and you try not to do too much. I don't know if this feels the way that it feels to me because I am an old bitch? But… [laughs] The first and hopefully last time you ever find yourself beefing with a fetus? Like… [laughs]

Ben

BEEFING WITH A FETUS! AAAAH! [laughs]

Nini

You know I'm right. You know I'm right.

Ben

I know what you mean! I mean there’re times, I'm like, oh lord I almost threw hands with a 12 year old today.

[both laugh]

Nini

You literally like, when somebody slaps into you like, what are you doing? Like this is a child! Hopefully it only ever happens to you once. And hopefully you very quickly realize that you are, in fact… you're in an antagonistic situation with a child.

Ben

It's really hard to realize sometimes that you are wrong. And to accept that and try to, like, move on from it properly. Like, I think she does okay. And like, she's still an asshole… just like Tae Hyung’s still an asshole. But I think she does okay.

Nini

To me it feels right, that the end is not… a comeuppance in that sense or a vengeance, but it's more like everybody being like, ‘Look okay, we all been through it. Let's just hug that shit out. Maybe I'll see you again, maybe I won't, but for right now, we’re here, it's a party, let's just have a good time, and not like do all this shit.’

1:17:14 - On a Possible Second Season

Ben

Speaking of ‘maybe we'll see each other again’ how do you feel about returning to these characters?

Nini

As you always say: Dick is not magical, it does not fix you.

Ben

It does not!

Nini

And there's still a lot, particularly on Jae Won’s side, like there's stuff with Ji Hyun too, but especially with Jae Won, there's still a lot there… in terms of his mental health, in terms of his family, in terms of all that stuff. So… there is room there? For something else, that could be interesting, but… I feel like if this was all there was, I would be good with it. 

How do you feel? What, what are your thoughts on a potential sequel?

Ben

So we talked about sequels in the spring season and I was really amped about sequels! I don't… feel the pull for one here yet. I'm not opposed, because… these characters are so strong, like we're gonna remember these characters, we're gonna remember Ji Hyun, Jae Won, Joon Pyo, Yoon Won, Eun Ji, Tae Hyung, the boss… Ae Ri! Don't forget my girl, I'm sorry boo boo. We're going to remember these characters, and their characterizations are fairly strong. So I am confident that the voice of the characters is strong enough to carry them into whatever new situations they want to put these characters through. 

However… I believe that this particular outing had a lot of very specific things they wanted to say, about queerness, about being Korean, about being young in Korea… and I hope that if they really want to continue the story, that they have more things that they think are worth saying, and they do that in a way that's legible. I am just concerned that they aren't prepared for… a domestic story where one of them is still in school? And the other one is trying to survive their homophobic family? And abusive dad. And I'm not entirely certain that I am… eager to explore that? 

I'm not opposed to a sequel, I'm not yearning for one, but I do hope that we get more melodrama out of these guys. I enjoyed this production a lot! Even if we don't get more of The Eighth Sense, I hope that this team continues to make cool stuff. I really loved the way Oh Jun Taek played Ji Hyun this whole time. I loved the way he moved, I loved the way he spoke, I loved his smile. And like, I like how in the final episodes when Jae Won has, almost the Japanese running-to-the-boy moment, I just love the way that… Ji Hyun is just so ecstatic to finally get what he's been hoping for. And he's clingy for the final parts of this show, and he's having a good time! He's literally radiant for the rest of the show! Oh Jun Taek plays the relief and joy of that character so well. 

Like you see, even Jae Won, like you can see his old bones creaking. That's, he's like ‘I can experience joy again?’ as he quickly wakes up for this, and like — I feel like some of the… final bits were a little bit rushed? But I'm not going to complain, because like… I like the therapy bit with Jae Won, like it allows me to be forgiving about a character — who's had a lot of emotional struggles for the whole fucking show — to very quickly adapt to the situation, and like ‘no, we're boyfriends now.’ Like you can see the work of somebody who spent a great deal of time working with a professional about how he's feeling and how to manage them… expressing them properly, now that the hugest block is out of his way. And that lands really well for me in the final moments, like in another show it might have felt like this got resolved too quickly.

Nini

I don't feel like it did get resolved too quickly. If I have to do like, one more ding for the show: I think that the passage of time, particularly in this last two episodes, wasn't really clear?

Ben

It is not.

Nini

There's a sequence where Ji Hyun is in a classroom and he's sitting in different positions in the classroom and wearing different clothes, and we're meant to understand that that is time passing. So there is a bunch of time that passes, in episode 9 in particular, that I don't think it’s very clear to the audience that there is a lot of time passing. We're seeing Jae Won becoming stronger and stronger and happier and happier. But because it all happens in a montage where it's not clear that time is passing, it feels rushed. I don't know how much time there is? But it feels like they go through a season, because you see his clothes change. At one point he's just wearing a t-shirt, and then the next time when they meet each other up, they're back into like maybe something heavier, like more like fall clothes? So I feel like they at least went through the summer.

Ben

Though I did love this show, this is not a show that's going to be, like, part of my personal canon.

Nini

For me, it's like… I can appreciate it as being objectively good. I can feel the emotions that it was going for?... Watching it is kind of… ticking something off a film syllabus.

Ben

That's the exact feeling… that like, I think it is!

Nini

That makes it sound bad in a way, but I don't mean for it to sound bad.

Ben

It goes on the must-watch list, but you're like, ehhh.

Nini

It's all the things: it's good, it's worthy, it's enjoyable, it's emotional… It's all of the things that you want a drama to be. I will recommend it for sure, I think it's important work. I… don't really see myself rewatching it? It touches me but it doesn't give me the visceral feelings.

Ben

This is not calling the show bad!

Nini

Objectively, this is a 10 show for me.

Ben

Don't let our mid commentary at the end of this two and a half hour recording deter you. We loved this show! And like we said in the beginning, we will remember every single one of these characters, because they're so vivid, and they're so expertly crafted. Do we recommend The Eighth Sense? Wholeheartedly yes! Please! You should experience this. Go watch this.

1:24:10 - Checking in Two Months Later

Ben

Okay, Nini… it's been about two months I think since The Eighth Sense ended at this point? How are you feeling about it two months later?

Nini

As I predicted I have not rewatched it. I have not felt the need to rewatch it. When I was doing the edit I was listening to us talk about it and everything just came flooding back. Like I could remember distinctly how I felt watching it, the things that we were talking about, but I still don't feel compelled to rewatch it. 

I feel like it's one of those things where… it has stuck? Somewhere deep inside? And because it stuck I don't need to go back to it and reinterpret it and review it and look at it again, I feel like it was so clear. It was so legible. It spoke for itself really, and so I don't feel the need to go over and over and over it. It's very different from how I normally consume media because if I'm really into something I will go over and over and over and over it. This is… very different for me, a very different experience of taking in media. 

What about you Ben, how do you feel about it a few months down the line?

Ben

I feel a bit weird about it, and I think a big part of it is the way that the team behind it is continuing to release behind the scenes content in a way that I wasn't expecting — like I was hoping it’d feel more akin to… the gravitas with which Boss and them released the I Told Sunset About You documentaries. But it's been a little bit on the silly side? 

There's talk about them doing a second season. And I'm not opposed, but I feel like it's left me in a liminal space with the show, like I feel like I'm sitting on a, like a train station waiting for the next train to come. 

What has stuck with me, and I was thinking about this when I listened to the edit, is: I'm so glad that we had that whole conversation on forgiveness. Because let me tell you, the amount of peace I have had over this show because I'm not sitting here hating on Tae Hyung or Eun Ji all these months later? Because they just don't matter. I really like that the show left us with these two driving down a tunnel together and saying, ‘Whatever is coming next, we'll do this together.’ That's so lovely. 

Like I feel like where I was with the show at the end of it, like it is one of those things that goes… in my cataloging of, this is a really good piece that I am going to remember and recommend to the youths, when they ask me about things that are worth watching from certain places or from certain angles. But I don't necessarily find myself yearning for Jae Won or Ji Hyun the way I have for other people. It was fun though, revisiting our absolutely unhinged love for Joon Pyo when I went back through this. [laughs] I still love that boy so much.

Nini

Joon Pyo the MVP! Everybody needs a friend like him. Everybody.

Ben

He was a really good friend. 

I think what stands out for me really about The Eighth Sense is that the field itself is just so much more crowded now. So much good stuff was airing when this show aired, more good stuff has aired since this show aired. It's not a knock on The Eighth Sense, it's just that… we have such a wide variety of excellent offerings to choose from, that I find that you're going to be able to find shows that hit your specific emotional resonances more consistently. Regardless of how good The Eighth Sense is, it didn't fully resonate with the exact weird queer sensibilities I have, that would make me put it into one of my heart shows.

Nini

You know what it is I think, Ben? I think we're getting older. [Ben laughs] I think this is an intensely youthful show. I watch these coming of age dramas all the time I mean, you spoke about ITSAY and that still like hits me like a ton of bricks. But that's because it feels like my youth? 

Whereas, I feel oddly… both connected and disconnected from The Eighth Sense. It feels like a youth that I'm familiar with? But not one that I have experienced? We talked about the millennial thing when we were talking about the show, and how this feels like that. But it still feels distant from my experience of being a millennial somehow? I think maybe I'm just too old for the show. Like, I can appreciate it for what it is, but I'm too old for it and it doesn't hit the nostalgia buttons that I Told Sunset About You and I Promised You the Moon and shows like that hit. I think this is one for the kids, Ben.

Ben

I don't think that's bad! What I'll say is, I'm really glad that there is room for that now. We've been talking in other spaces about how fandom feels like it's bifurcating too many times now, that it feels thinner than it used to be? Like it feels like there used to be a lot more of us around. But I just feel like a big thing at this point is, we're not all trying to get some sort of energy from the exact same shows anymore. 

Right now I'm yelling on Tumblr about a whole show that Nini is just not watching. And I think that's okay, because Nini and I are still screaming at each other about at least two or three other shows, and so like I'm not feeling despondent because Nini, who's one of my best friends in fandom, isn't watching one of the shows that I'm really enjoying right now. It's okay that The Eighth Sense is the type of coming of age experience that maybe is more suited for the Gen Z types than the millennials.

Nini

So now that we have fully memento mori’d ourselves, I think that's that's a wrap for us. [laughs]

Ben

It's a really good show guys. Don't, don't get us wrong like we're, we're being a little bit wistful at the end of this, but — I really liked this show. Like I still, I stand by everything we said in the original recording. 

I really like the performances here, I really like the gumption of this entire production. I really like the casting choices. I like the way Oh Jun Taek and Im Ji Sub really worked together. And… sincerely, if they want to do more work with these two guys and reprising these characters, I will be there, seated, to see what they do next. 

Nini

All right! And with that, we out! Say bye to the people, Ben.

Ben

Peace!

#the eighth sense #korean bl #podcast #lgbtq #the conversation #ben and nini's conversations #spring series #season 3 #summer 2023 #on art #summer series #Spotify

[darthruaky]

Sonder

#summer series

[k-obi]

Summer, la serie de libros best-seller de Jenny Han

Summer, la serie de libros best-seller de Jenny Han

Hoy vamos a platicar del segundo y el tercer libro, pero vámonos en orden y empecemos con It’s not summer without you 😉 Sinopsis Año tras año, Belly espera con impaciencia la llegada de las vacaciones para reencontrarse con Conrad y Jeremiah en la casa de la playa. Pero este verano no podrá ir. No después de que la madre de los chicos volviera a enfermar y de que Conrad cambiara. Todo lo que el…

View On WordPress

#amor #blog #crítica #Jenny Han #libro #novela juvenil #Summer series #TSITP

[penguinclover]

Day 140

I wanna go to the beach _(」∠ ､ﾝ､)_🎐

#pokespe #oldrivalshipping #green pokespe #blue pokespe #green x blue #specialshipping #daily 140 #summer series

[lexxwithbooks]

📖: 𝑰𝒕'𝒔 𝑵𝒐𝒕 𝑺𝒖𝒎𝒎𝒆𝒓 𝑾𝒊𝒕𝒉𝒐𝒖𝒕 𝒀𝒐𝒖 (𝑆𝑢𝑚𝑚𝑒𝑟 #2) 🌟🪸🦀

✍🏽: 𝐉𝐞𝐧𝐧𝐲 𝐇𝐚𝐧

Get the book! 🌟

#it’s not summer without you #jenny han #summer love #the summer i turned pretty #summer fling #summer series #tsitp #tsitp books #belly conklin #belly x conrad #belly x jeremiah #conrad fisher #conradbelly #jeremiah fisher #tsitp jeremiah #tsitp belly #tsitp conrad #childhood friends #brother’s best friend #friends to lovers #childhood crush #loved you since childhood #friends to enemies to lovers #love triangle #mary jane girls #new books #books recommendations #books #libros #libros recomendados

[nier-reincarnation-library]

Summer Alt Summoning Screens

A song that lures listeners into the abyss.

A voice concealed by roaring waves.

An eternal sea.

An infinite darkness.

If you do not wish to be swallowed up...

by those who rule these parts.

Mind your decorum.

Pay your respects.

It matters not your reasons-- best not to wear heavy clothes at the beach. Moreso if you wish for the sea to grant its favor.

Should one desire to get on well with the sea, they must don the appropriate attire. So long as one minds proper etiquette and keeps fear in their heart, the sea will surely become their ally.

#nier #nier reincarnation #Summer series #drakenier #summon screens

[primal-slayer]

X-Men: The animated series vs X-Men '97 opening

#xmen #x men 97 #marvel #storm #xmen storm #ororo munroe #cyclops #scott summers #jean grey #rogue #xmen rogue #beast #xmen beast #hank mccoy #gambit #xmen gambit #remy lebeau #jubilee #jubilation lee #professor x #professor xavier #charles xavier #xmen the animated series #x-men #x-men 97