#toxic gay couples in the media

[admingears]

035 is soo silly

#scp foundation #scp 035 #issacwatchtorne #scp sedition #IM.LISTENING TO FIGHTING WITH THE MELODY ITS SO BANGING #toxic gay couples in the media

[flashbastardsramblings]

I've realised that the thing I love most about the new popular queer media (and for this I'll use as an example wwdits, good omens and ofmd), is the fact that the difficulties these characters are dealing with aren't connected to their sexuality. The problems don't stem from their queer sexuality. They are not being punished for being queer.

Crowley and Aziraphale's relationship isn't forbidden because they aren't a cishet couple. It's forbidden because they are both victims of an opressive and unjust system (heaven) who's afraid of their combined power which is a direct result of their love for one another.

Guillermo and Nandor's relationship is so nuanced and complicated. There's lots of things to unpack that have been piled up for more than a decade, but again their queer sexualities aren't the problem. Same goes for the rest of the vampires, who are also queer.

Sure, in Stede's case he has to deal with queer trauma, toxic masculinity and the realisation that he's gay, and therefore doesn't conform to the ideal archetype of the straight, masculine man with the heterosexual family. But after realising that and coming out to Mary, the show isn't really about ‘oh, look how difficult it is to be queer, poor guys'. Like Con O'Neil said in a panel, the obstacle here isn't that we have two men who are in love. The difficult thing is to let yourself be in love and become vulnerable.

Both Stede and Ed are dealing with their own trauma, which has affected how they see themselves and by extension their relationships with other people. They are dealing with self doubt, even self loathing, and the belief that they aren't good enough or that they don't deserve love. However, none of that is because they are queer. Being queer sure isn't easy (especially then) but it's not the source of their pain and I fucking love that.

I'm all about the exploration of sexuality, dealing with internalised homophobia and transphobia, coming out etc, and that's why we have series like Heartstopper. But it's still so fucking refreshing to see queerness not being depicted as a ‘big deal’, but rather one of the many aspects of one's self.

That being said, I love being queer and fucking love my insane little queer characters.

#just something I've been thinking about lately #god i fucking love being queer #it sure as hell isn't easy #but i wouldn't change it #queer media #our flag means death #ofmd #edward teach #blackbeard #stede bonnet #gentleman pirate #blackbonnet #gentlebeard #good omens #ineffable husbands #crowley #aziraphale #crowley x aziraphale #what we do in the shadows #wwdits #nandermo #guillermo de la cruz #nandor the relentless #nadja of antipaxos #laszlo cravensworth #colin robinson #taika waititi #rhys darby #david tennant #michael sheen

[devondeal]

Long Chaggie rant ahead

I think a reason Chaggie get called "boring" is that they are waayyy past that beginning stage of their relationship TV love to glamorize.

They've been together for three years and already have that comfort level with each other that not everything is a new discovery. They accept each other's differences and just support. That's what a well established relationship is like.

Of course they are still heavily affectionate and loving with each other because duh, they're in love. Society loves to repeat the bullshit "losing the spark" problem in relationships and how "marriage is so hard" but most of these situations are people that barely even like each other let alone love.

I think that's why media loves showing either beginning stage relationships OR trope-y enemies to lovers and variants of that.

ESPECIALLY in the case of queer relationships because it's only fairly recently that it's been normalized onscreen and I don't think we're used to seeing a normal queer relationship. Like think about it.

Media has always loved showing the gays as deviant and toxic because that's been the only way it was allowed to be seen. I think many of us have gotten used to seeing ourselves that way that it's been normalized.

Personally, I'm in the boat of I'm sick being seen as deviant and like it's bad and wrong thing to be in love with someone of the same sex. For me, Chaggie has been healing because it's just two women being a healthy happy couple. Something that society and even family have told me is not possible which hurts beyond words to hear.

So yeah, I love Chaggie. It is the best wlw canon ship in fucking YEARS and I have been craving representation like this. The very things that I get dirty looks at for irl, is completely normal with Chaggie.

They can hold hands, lean in together arm around shoulder, quick casual kisses in public, give each other goo-goo eyes, just general affection and couple-y behavior as well as the "been together for 3 years" quirks and routines. Like I swear I cannot remember any other wlw ship like this so yeah, it's gonna hit me hard in the feels.

And when characters like Lute and Adam are disgusted or fetishize it, it's very obviously portrayed as villainous behavior. Everyone else just accepts them as they are.

Of course it's not just the normalization of those things but specifically in the context of they've been together for 3 years and are still very much in love and have nothing to prove to each other and just face any conflicts as they come like a normal couple.

Most media especially TV have gay couples break up after that amount of time just for drama points and cuz us gays cant ever last in a long term relationship apparently 😒 And I feel like that especially goes for lesbian relationships on TV. I've seen wayyy more long terms mlm relationships than wlw in main roles.

(Wonder if that's cuz it's just so unbelievable that women could actually love each other cuz society just is so attached to the idea that all women hate each other)

Basically fuck Chaggie hate. We need more wlw long term relationships like this onscreen. I'm tired of being seen as deviant and likely to be toxic. And I'm not saying they need to be perfect. They're obviously not and have some issues but that's a good thing. Every couple has issues.

I'm just saying not all gay onscreen need to almost destroy their relationship in order to repair it.

I just really find it incredibly annoying that some will slap the "boring" label on Chaggie when it's more likely that a long term healthy happy wlw relationship is just that bizarre to them. Just let women actually love women for fuck's sake.

#chaggie #vaggie #charlie morningstar #hazbin hotel #wlw #rainbowmoth

[yukishirostar]

So people are talking about a post in the Zolu tag by a certain tumblr user in regards to their issues with Zolu as a ship. They shall be unnamed because i dont wish to bring attention to them and instead just want to focus on their arguments because they're not the first people to make some of these points and so this is also an opportunity for me to talk about these things (a tweet is going around on Twitter containing these screenshots with the username so you can find it there if you need to anyway).

The way this person dismisses the relationship between Zoro and Luffy as a result of needing to pair gay Zoro with someone is too laughable, they must be very fit in order to be able to do these mental gymnastics. I believe that many people who are going on about the Zolu scenes in the OPLA were already Zolu shippers who were familiar with the original story and are enjoying the moments because they were well, really good Zolu moments? And there is actually, shockingly, many good Zolu moments in the original story too which is why many people ship them. Wild, I know.

Then there's 'straight-washed Sanji'. Equally if not more of a bizarre thing to believe. I might make some people mad especially the Sanji stans out there who constantly insist on the 'repressed queer' narrative with his character, but Sanji is written pretty explicitly to be seen as a cisgender and heterosexual character. The way you say with your whole chest that Luffy is 'canonically' aroace but don't acknowledge that Sanji is 'canonically' cishet is beyond hypocritical. If you believe Sanji looking like a 'misogynistic straight man' is different from the way he is written in canon then maybe you should go back and reread/rewatch series with your eyes open this time. If you wish to headcanon him with the frankly offensive repressed bisexual/transgender cliché then go ahead, but that is clearly not the intention Oda has with his character.

There's also the fact that aroace people can uh. Be in relationships. Get married. Have children. Did it occur to you that many people who ship Zolu ship them as an ace couple or-

First thing I want to say here, as a trans man who is 'mlm', can other dudes stop with this idea that women or fem-aligned individuals enjoying homosexual relationships between two men is inherently fetishising or that as a masc-aligned individual your enjoyment of a ship is morally superior in some way. Stop pulling out your 'mlm/ transmasc / cis gay' card in order to justify why your ship is superior. Its cringe af.

But if we are to insist that 'cishet female gaze fetishising mlm' is going on then ironically Zosan fits that the better than any ship in the fandom. It being by far the most popular mlm ship means there is likely a higher proportion of people who identify as cishet women who ship it. Its also the classic 'two men who dislike/hate eachother and have a toxic relationship but hot sexual tension' slash/yaoi stereotype. Majority of Zosan I've come across is depicting Zoro as the masculine male man in the relationship while Sanji the effeminate twink that Sanji stans project themselves onto and they go crazy for the bickering that is apparently reminiscent to them of a toxic heterosexual marriage. Meanwhile every Zolu/Luzo shipper I've interacted with has been some flavour of queer and Zolu is closest to the 'falling in love with your same sex bestie' narrative that the majority if not every non-heterosexual person has experienced at least once in their lifetime. This is just my personal view of course, but I think noting a difference in perspective on this topic is interesting and reveals that at the end of the day this is totally subjective and based purely on anecdotes.

Also it's just a very weird point here that apparently OP has 'plenty of varied queer rep' (it actually doesn't have that many canonical queer characters in relation to its cast size but anyway) and other media doesn't so shipping aroace characters in gay relationships is valid in those but not in One Piece … HUH???? So you're saying if One Piece had 'less' queer rep, then Zolu would be fine to ship? Idek my brain hurts.

"I have black friends so I'll speak for the black community and get offended for them" (btw this person then proceeded to block aroace people who had issues with their depiction of aroace people).

Also if we're talking canonical depictions, the only thing Zoro has been canonically depicted as is also aroace, equally if not moreso than Luffy. So by your own rules, you can't ship a cishet (sanji) with an aroace (zoro), therefore Zosan is now invalid. Stop erasing Zoro's aroace identity bigot.

'Categorically wrong' makes me laugh. I don't ship Zoro and Nami but like, people can ship what they want to??

'The general public is aware enough of gay people and how to spot them these days' uh... firstly this sounds very homophobic. Secondly the general public (cishet ppl) are famously bad at recognising queerness even when its in flashing lights before them. Thirdly you make it sound like Zoro was going around on roller skates and booty shorts listening to YMCA and Madonna in the show. I do agree he was gay-coded but it was mostly because he had sexual tension with every man he interacted with, not for the strange reasons you pointed out...

Its kinda the elephant in the room too but like. These are just headcanons. You can have multiple headcanons and interpretations of a character's sexuality. I can see Zoro as aroace virgin one day and a gay h*e the next. I'm actually allowed, legally, to do that.

The way they think shipping Zolu is harmful to aroace representation when BOTH characters are closest to being canonically aroace than anything yet ship Zosan, label being anti-Zolu as some kind of pro-ace activism, and then proceeded to block aroace people for criticising their incorrect depiction of what being aroace is...

This was a lot of words to say that you don't like a ship. Just say you don't like it, and it gets in the way of the ship you like, instead of writing a virtue signalling essay to justify your reasoning. Please.

They had some more to say on future posts I'll just pick my favourite bits

They really have this narrative that Zolu is only popular because of OPLA and can't fathom that its just a popular ship in general and always has been huh. And they couldn't make it more obvious that they're totally salty about it ranking in the top 100 most popular tumblr ships, lmao.

Your classic case of 'self-identifying ally who speaks over the people they are supposed allies of'. Its a general rule that you feel the need to declare yourself an ally you're probably not an ally, actual allies know they need to just shut up and do the work. Saying 'this character's aroace' and 'I have aroace friends' actually isn't what allyship is, thats just accepting that ace people exist which is like... the baseline.

Calling a wholesome loving ship like Zolu an icky ship is a severe consequence of online brain (this person is 26 years old btw)

#long post #Zolu #Luzo #One Piece #response

[schyzotypalmind]

Double standards regarding Hannigram and Clannibal.

I need to take this out of my chest because I thing is a HUGE problem within the fandom of Thomas Harris´ Hannibal universe.

I´m a die hard fan of both the movies and the books. I kinda liked the TV Show but was never my cup of tea, specially with the mischaracterization of Hannibal.

Ignoring the fact the Hannibal is a misandrist in the books, like, he really hates men and the only good personal experiences that he ever had came from his mother, sister, step-aunt and Clarice.

I didn´t really care that they made him pansexual/bi/whatever in the tv series, but the whole point of Hannibal in the books/movies is that he doesn´t psychological or physical abuse those he loves or those who he finds interesting/not rude, like Barney.

I found extremely disturbing Hannibal killing women like stepping on flies. He doesn´t kill ANY women in the books or movies, maximum he did was bitting off the cheek of a nurse and we don´t know if she was rude to him before, treated him bad or whatever. Not justifying the attack but the fact that he never killed any women in the original books.

Also... killing Abigail in front of Will was the cherry on top. He would NEVER kill a sister figure to him or someone that he is taking care off or deeply loves.

What Hannibal did to Will in the series is what domestic abusers to do to women, killing their kids to get revenge on them and to mentally hurt them for life. It was completely fucked up and out of character. And people say is "beautiful" because they are "murder husbands"??? like are we been serious?

And then other fans and the media saying that the end of the book of Hannibal could never work on TV or movies because is not "feminist" that Clarice chose to run away with the only man in the world appart from her own father who didn´t mentally abuse, objectify or mistreat her.

Like... what??? Hannibal NEVER hurt Clarice physically nor mentally. He tried to brainwash her to get Mischa back... but was not to hurt Clarice in the process. He didn´t want to cause any harm to her on purpose, yeah, what he did was wrong too but hopefully Clarice was tougher that he expected and she end up offering herself to him as a lover.

Like... you guys hate the ending of the book because at the end she willingly ends up with him and live a happy life together in Argentina... but love the ending where after years of physical and mental abuse towards Will, they both jump together and throw themselves off a cliff... ?????

Like, if Hannibal didn´t tortured Will and did the same he did to Clarice, I would have actually loved the series, but this aweful toxic and abusive gay represetation really needs to stop. You are romantizicing abuse and are deeply DEEPLY misogynistic.

Is the same shit over again that happened with Killing Stalking, where even the author had to come up and say that IT WAS NOT a dark romance webtoon but a thriller.

Like be for fucking real... Hannibal murdering women left and right, torturing Will, trying to kill him, imprisoned him, killed his sister/daughter substitute of Mischa and that´s better that him genuinely trying to help Clarice with her trauma, healing and stitching her wound, giving her a luxurious life in Argentina??? Come on...

So a murder and toxic gay representation can work on media but not a fucked up heterosexual couple running away from a society that really failed them...

The tv series would have worked better if they did the same in the books but with Will (they didn´t have Clarice rights anyway), both running away together to Argentina without Hannibal destroying him physical and mentally.

#hannibal the cannibal #hannibal fandom #clannibal #hannigram #hannibal lecter #hannibal nbc #hannibal books #hannibal x clarice #will x hannibal #thomas harris #red dragon #silence of the lambs

[mauesartetc]

Is it me, or is Vivziepop bad at writing romantic relationships? It feels like she wants to write "problematic", drama-filled romance where the characters start out toxic, there are misunderstandings, betrayals etc cuz the show is supposed to be about "problematic gays", and that's perfectly valid, but she can't write chemistry. So far, it feels like Blitzo clings to Stolas because he's afraid he will end up alone and unloved, but doesn't actually care for him as a person. He often looks uncomfortable with Stolas' flirting even if he reciprocates sometimes.

I've seen couples in children's media with much better written-relationships and chemistry, like Roxanne and Megamind. It's clear they enjoy each other's company, they have mutual banter and flirting and he respects her intelligence.

I know Stolitz is supposed to be "toxic" pre-character development but at this point it still sucks that so far, it's impossible to tell what the characters like about each other other than the sex.

(I've been told that Stolas enjoys how Blitzo made him laugh when they met during the circus but that's not been developed enough as a concept to count).

Yeah here's a thought: When has he made Stolas laugh during adulthood?! Where was that moment? What do they even have in common other than liking dudes?

Oh shit. I think I get why fans of this show accuse critics of being homophobic. It's because this relationship has literally no substance other than "they're gay". (Or Stolas might be, anyway. Their specific orientations are never clarified in the show that I can recall.) Oh, you don't like this mlm relationship? You must hate ALL mlm relationships. Funny how the fans are the ones fixated on that aspect while no one I've seen criticize the show has ever cited the homoerotica as evidence that this relationship sucks. No, it sucks because there's absolutely no depth to it. There's nothing to make us root for it to work.

Sure, the characters have their own personalities as individuals, and there's potential for chemistry in how those personalities and backgrounds oppose each other, but the show never explores it. What would happen if Stolas tried to fit into Blitzo's poverty-stricken school of hard knocks, or if Blitzo tried to fit in with high society? What if they just had a conversation about what life has been like for each of them? Where are the bonding moments that show us this is more than just a transactional arrangement (or at least that it could be)? What made Stolas suddenly fall in love with Blitzo offscreen between Episodes 6 and 7, after treating him like an object the entire season? Why the fuck does he care if Blitzo comes to see him in the hospital or not? Why should we care as viewers?

Funny enough, this neat video by LocalScriptMan just came out (check out this channel, seriously), and it talks about going deeper into writing relationships than just smashing two characters with differing personalities together. Again, differing personalities can create potential for chemistry (as each character learns new perspectives from the other), but a pairing of opposites isn't chemistry in and of itself.

If Helluva Boss's writers gave us a good mlm relationship with actual substance, more power to 'em! Maybe we'll get one with Asmodeus and Fizzarolli, but... ehh. It's doubtful at this point.

#helluva boss #helluva critical #writing #anti stolitz #romantic chemistry #relationships #shipping #ask #chinesegal

[olderthannetfic]

Oh, golly! A known youtuber was recently exposed for plagiarism also turns out to be an extreme misogynist?? Who could've noticed such a thing!

It's not like in multiple videos he went on rants about how female authors are big bads for writing about MLM couples and female fans are big bads for daring to enjoy those ships.

In his Killing Stalking video, he attacked women for enjoying the manga and (it's been a long time since I watched that video, and considering that he nuked everything, it's not like I can go back, but I'm pretty sure that he said that) we are raised with the belief that the abusive relationships between two gay men are ok to fetishize while we'd never read the same thing between a man and a woman (not only this is stupid and untrue, but notice how a third kind of couple is missing, here. Wonder why.)

Later on, he talked shit about the author of Love, Simon, forcing her to come out, then proceeded to keep addressing her as a "straight" woman, and whined that the book/movie erased the characters of any kind of sexuality despite the women wanting to see gay men do the nasty.

Later, later on, he rambled about Red, White, and Royal Blue, and this time he complained about that the evil women who fetishize gay men were against genuine displays of sex acts between two gay men (???).

For years, he blabbed about how women are the true enemy of gay-men-focused medias, and even then he couldn't keep his story straight (do we like to see these gay men fuck or not?? James, which one is it??).

Not to mention the fantastic take of "Queer women had it easier throughout history," because that's such a punch in the chest that we can't ignore it.

Guys, this shit was always in plain sight. He never tried to hide it, there was no need for a bald bisexual man to make us notice it. We gotta stop turning our faces to blatant misogyny simply because it's being expressed by a gay man.

--

Yuuuup.

I'm genuinely sorry for the people who didn't spot it, but I am not sympathetic. Somerton was not even a little bit subtle. He was a toxic, rancid piece of shit for many, many years.

Also, even the plagiarism accusations are years old. People just didn't listen because nobody youtube-famous had made a big video about them.

[tiredmoonslut]

I just finished S1 of Heartstopper and dare I say it....dare I say it....

I'm gonna say it. This is the sweetest piece of queer media I've ever seen. I'm sure there's more out there, but by god I am floored. Alice Oseman, can I please give you a hug?

I've never seen a show weave so deftly between my expectations. I expected a cute love story, and I got it. But what I did not expect was for the story to be so...graceful.

I'll be honest, at first glance I had low expectations for this show. The growth of queer media since the release of Love, Simon (especially MLM media) is a fantastic thing, and I'm so happy it's happening, but part of becoming mainstream is that a lot of mediocrity will come to fill the gaps. Having no prior awareness that Heartstopper was a comic series (my bad), I'd shallowly judged it as such.

Holy fuck was I wrong oh my fucking god

This show is a gift. And what makes it amazing is, as I said, how gracefully executed it is.

This show writes itself. Two teens meet-cute and have a sweet forbidden love. We all know how that goes. We even know how the gay version of that goes. But Heartstopper? It said "we see you, and raise you this". It is two teens meet-cuting and having a sweet forbidden love. But the show takes one look at all the potential tropes inherent there, and says, "nah".

Case in point. Nick. Fucking. Nelson. You are a national treasure, and I will thank Alice Oseman eternally for bringing you to me, you sweet, sweet boy. Nick's story could have been very traditional, as far as gay stories go. Masc athlete discovers he likes guys and has a crisis. Cue the internalized disgust, angry outbursts, emotional victimization, and relationship toxicity, followed by a hasty resolution that "fixes" the relationship and offers only a mildly satisfying conclusion. But what Heartstopper did so, so beautifully, is make Nick Nelson kind.

It sounds so bare minimum when viewed that way, but that is the problem. Too often in queer stories, it is either A) about the suffering of being queer, or B) about the aftermath of the suffering. Neither is uplifting, optimistic, or even nice to see represented, all the time. We've all lived it. Seeing it told so callously on a screen isn't vindicating. It's rude. Nick Nelson flies in the face of that phenomenon, simply by being kind. He is a masculine athlete who finds out he likes guys and has a bit of a crisis. But he never lashes out at Charlie, never scoffs and says "I'm not gay!", never shouts Charlie down or shames him.

From moment ONE, Nick is completely self-aware. He knows his own confusion could do harm to Charlie, so he doesn't make it Charlie's responsibility. He's proactive. He talks to people. He gets honest with himself. Soul-searches. Opens up to his feelings. Why? Because he wants to be happy, and because he is committed to kindness.

Highlighting that turned Heartstopper from a predictable gay love story into something life-giving, and warm, and adorable, and so unapologetically queer. This was underscored by Elle's storylines. Seeing a black trans girl like myself fit so perfectly into the main cast of characters and be treated with the utmost respect the entire time added years to my lifespan. Seeing an interracial lesbian couple navigate their relationship with such grace was beautiful.

And seeing all of those unique perspectives blend so easily into a unified, unapologetically queer friend group was so accurate to my own experiences as a queer individual that I found myself tearing up as I watched. This is the gooey, dramatic, teeny-bopper queer love story every queer kid deserves to be able to watch, and I literally cannot wait to get my hands on the graphic novels and the next two seasons of the show. I love it so much.

#okay I'm shutting up now #I just am so happy #heartstopper #nick nelson #charlie spring #narlie #heartstopper netflix #joe locke #kit connor #alice oseman

[whysojiminimnida]

Remember When I Said Taehyung Might Not Be As Gay As We Thought?

Don't judge a man by his milfy wardrobe, he looks goooood.

It was... awhile ago. Maybe as far back as 2021 although I do not feel like link-searching it. It's in the archives if I didn't kill it.

Granted, there was a lot going on, then. There's still a lot going on and until now I had no desire to ever - EVER - return to this hellsite. Because Taekookers are fucking weird, yo. And some of y'all got a lil bit up in my shit too as I (fuzzily) recall. Which: it's whatever. I'm extremely unsocial, don't even answer my own DMs. And it's not personal, so I get it. I don't need or want to defend myself, but I will protect people I care about. With my absence, if necessary.

OT: I also totally kicked the big C while I've been out so that was nice. Yoongi the cat is pleased that his noms will continue uninterrupted. I will be in wigs for at least another year. It's all good. Oh LOOK at what we have here. Don't come at me for publishing this, I will explain.

I got it from actual media days ago, okay, and also: there was no expectation of real privacy. Keep reading. Or don't, I'm not telling you what to do.

ANYWAY. I had to come back, mainly to say TAENNIE IS REAL I TOLD Y'ALL IDK WHY NOBODY EVER BELIEVES ME BUT HERE WE ARE. I'm gloating. Honestly, it's so rude, I'd apologize if I cared. But I am rude and snorfling into my cheerios about this. Tae just made me so damn happy, is all.

LET THE MAN BE BI OR HETEROFLEXIBLE OR EVEN STRAIGHT IDC. Jennie clearly makes him happy. Look at his "I'm going to Paris to see my girlfriend" face!

And in that very specific jewelry look, no less. Foundrae. Again. Still. Hm.

Here's what I can tell you based on my limited third hand no sources no receipts this is probably utter bullshit usual disclaimer: It's a soft open, kids. This whole "oopsie we just so happened to get caught taking a lil walk in public with our managers in tow during which date at least one of us signed several autographs, what a surprise" is in fact a soft open for what will likely be a public confirmation PRETTY DAMN SOON. It might happen before I get this thing published, actually, depending on when I get it up. If it's before May 22 at noon my time, no idea. If after, well. Guess we'll see. Jennie's supposed to show up at the screening of HBO's The Idol that day, screening at the Grand Lumiere at 10:30 CEST. One wonders if she will arrive alone, or bring a plus one. It's a big ask, and if he does it they're probably getting married, that's how big a deal it would be. So I'm not holding my breath, but.

This seems like a reasonable prospect for a plus-one viewing. Might not be the only one but... Jennie's IN IT so.

I'M NOT SAYING THIS IS GONNA HAPPEN. I think it would be a fucking POWER move if it did, but I also do not necessarily expect that it will. It COULD. It... MIGHT. It might not. Either way they're a thing, I'm telling you. They are, have been, a thing. For awhile. And it is apparently quite serious - like up to and including talk of engagement serious.

Remember when a bunch of folk thought that one gummy bear dude was going to jail for "hacking" Jennie's phone only there's been no actual movement on any "investigation"? Yeah. Trickle truthing, they call it. Give 'em a little bit, let them deny it and yell and chew on it for awhile before you give 'em a little more. But c'mon, nobody's wearing half the love-themed couple pieces at Foundrae for no damn reason.

Seriously they got the whole collection almost and both have been seen wearing them almost exclusively. For a year.See airport pic above.

Look, I don't have inside info on Taehyung. I do not. I ain't hang with his friends and I don't know him personally. Never met the guy. But I know a PR move when I see one and this is exactly that.

We all know how toxic stan culture can be. Some ToadlicKKers (and a few of us house elves) are certifiably bonkers, if stan twitter is anything to go by. And the guys, the company, they expect a whole meltdown. They know this is not gonna make half their fans happy. I mean the tkkers have a point in that it looks like they wanted to be seen. BECAUSE IT'S A SOFT OPEN. What Taejen/Taennie/Jenhyung and the companies also know is that based on historic shipper behavior, this is gonna come back on Jimin, Jungkook, maybe Rose' and Lisa. And by extension, the other members. Maybe not as much due to their respective distance, but still. I bet by the time I finish this it will have already started.

Oh look there it is. Fuck those bitches, really.

Good LORDT. I'm not adding the audio, if y'all are that hungry for psycho hose beast Jimin hate hie thee to stan twt.

But, totally off-topic kinda...

... wouldn't it be cool if Jennie, who speaks great English, was hanging out with Troye Sivan and was like "so you know my boyfriend tells me that his bffs..." I'M JUST SAYING NETWORKING IS COOL AND FRIENDS OF FRIENDS GET THINGS DONE OKAY.

You know that girl has the scoop. If Tae knows it, she knows it. Oh heeeeyyy Troye.

Also OT: I love that Taekook have been hanging out a little more lately. It's refreshing. I genuinely think having Jennie in his life has been good for Tae in several ways. And you know, I'm kinda surprised Taennie has lasted this long. I didn't honestly think they would. It warms my decrepit, sad old heart a bit. Turns out I have a lot more to say so IDK IDK, if I feel okay about it I might be back. Right now I'm just waiting for the official Taennie nod and the continued total meltdown.

#oh shit here we go again #taennie #stan twt #cannes #taehyung #kim taehyung #jennie #meanwhile the jeon parks continue unabated but that's another thing #tae in paris #random troye sivan #cannes 2023 #yoongi the cat not the man #why the hell am i even here

[gottagobackintime]

I find it fascinating to witness the straight audience of any media not being able to pick up what the makers of the movie/show puts down.

It’s like when people reacted to the “You wear fine things well” scene in Our Flag Means Death with “aw, they’re such good friends” whereas the queer audience went “omg, this is happening”. We all had access to the same scene, we’d all watched the build up to that scene but the straight audience wrongly read it as friends/straight whereas the queer audience had suspected they were building up to a romance but this was the confirmation. Even the creator of the show was baffled that people were surprised that Ed and Stede fell in love. Because he thought they had made it obvious.

And as I said, we, the queer audience picked up on it. And I feel like the same thing is happening with Ted Lasso. Do I know that Ted and Trent will get together? No, I am unfortunately not a writer on Ted Lasso. But you can’t deny that there are clues pointing to it. But the straight audience barely pick up the fact that Ted and Trent like each other, be that in a platonic way or romantic way. I’ve seen several reactions to the last episode of season 2 and ONE of them included the scene where Ted reacts to Trent not being in the press room. All of them severely cut down the scene in the parking lot. One of the scenes most of us Ted/Trent truthers point to as a huge piece of evidence for it going canon. The parallel of them meeting in an empty parking lot, just like Ted and his ex-wife and Roy and Keeley. But because Ted and Trent are both men it couldn’t possibly mean anything. And Ted has an ex-wife and a kid so he can’t possibly be into men, as if there is no such thing as being bisexual. “But I’m pretty sure Trent has a family, he has a kid right?” So? He could be divorced, we also have no idea if his daughter has another dad or a mum. And the same thing applies to him, it doesn’t mean he can’t be into men (take also into account all of James Lance’s interviews, and his choice of shirt in one of them, friend of Dorothy anyone? He's the captain of this ship, we're just along for the ride tbh.)

Then we have the wonderful “I’m so not homophobic, in fact, you are homophobic because you think Ted is gay just because he likes musicals and has ‘feminine’ traits” um no… it’s the fact that he kind of acts in a way that an ally wouldn't. Yeah, he called himself an ally in that one episode. But every single person who is now out as queer who at one point considered themselves an ally because "I’m not one of them but I sure think they're neat" raise a hand 🖐️ (been there, done that. Was very into queer things before I realised I myself am one of them). What it always comes down to is "it's pandering", "it's tokenism" (having the main character on the show be queer wouldn't be fucking tokenism), "not everything has to be gay", "why can't men just be friends, there is a severe lack of male friendships on tv". And like the last one makes me go??? There are a MILLION friendships between men on TV. There are even multiple friendships between men in Ted Lasso. Beard and Ted, Ted and Higgins, Ted and Roy, the himbos and so on. Having Ted and Trent become a couple wouldn't really change anything because there are still friendships between men. They also claim that Ted is needed as the "straight without toxic masculinity" representation. As if Beard isn't right there. The man who has no problem going to an immersive show about the menstrual cycle. Has no problem with shrieking when he's surprised and so on.

I also like that if we'd get Ted and Trent together, we'd get two middle aged queer dads. Which isn't that common. It's not even super common to see people realising they're queer late in life on TV, and yet it happens every day. Because let's face it, most queer men on TV kind of look like Colin, and I don't mean that as a bad thing. And I'm looking forward to his storyline. But it's also nice seeing middle aged or old people finding themselves and being allowed to be who they are (see Ed and Stede from OFMD). Also would enjoy seeing people lose their minds when they realise they've been fooled this entire time. It'll be like Black Sails all over again.

I do not have any doubts about the fact that, had Trent or Ted been a woman and they saw Trent give up his career because of Ted's influence, they sure as hell wouldn't protest people thinking they'd become a couple. But because it's two men it's just delusional for some reason (homophobia).

What I'm saying is, it's clear that the straight audience has a hard time picking up subtext and clues that the makers are planting. Because they've never had to do that. Because they are always clearly represented. They don't have to look for minor side characters and hope that they might be queer. Because the main character is straight and most of the supporting cast too. When you've grown up with a lack of representation or with representation that is meant to be subtext, you'll learn to pick up on it. And you do look at media differently. I just wish that the straight audience could listen to us for once, without getting defensive and dancing around the fact that they are uncomfortable relating to a character that turned out to be queer.

#tedependent #ted lasso #trent crimm #there are so many times where I'm watching something and I go... hold on that is... is that a queer character... yes it must be #and then they do something small that confirms it and I'm like I fucking knew it! #I have 0 gaydar in real life but when it comes to media I tend to pick up on it #I wish that all straight people would learn about the way queer people have been represented throughout history #so that they might be able to understand why we have to look for subtext even today #hell we got ''representation'' in star wars and beauty and the beast and it was blink and you'll miss it #and they wonder why we have to make everything gay?? #because we want to be represented in a show that isn't strictly about being queer #yes it's nice with a ''everyone is queer'' kind of show #but it's also nice to be seen in a mainstream show that is loved by not just a queer audience but also a straight audience #nicole watches stuff

[punkeropercyjackson]

I don't buy the 'Sasusakus are a cesspool of homophobic cishets and Sasunaru shippers are a shining light in the fandom who truly understand queerness and media!!!!' allegations because Sasusaku shippers have been nothing but respectful of me headcanoning Sasuke as a trans lesbian because of the combo of her individual character and how her relathionship with Sakura is written and one of my friend's even agreed that Sasuke works really well as a transfem character even though that's not her personal hc and they're always the ones defending Sasuke and the Kunoichi without pitting any of them against eachother and instead uplifting them with an emphasis on their girlhood without being cissexist and also having a nuanced view on the Uchiha clan and Sasunarus think Sasuke hates women so much she can only like men and say none of their pre-Shippuden dynamic counts because Sasuke had more screentime being toxic destructive friends with Naruto and get EXTREMELY up in arms over non-Sasuke guys as Naruto's endgame both on their own posts and even on strangers' and it's like their entire life to spew ironic unironic misogynistic takes and jokes about every female character in existense with their gender as the basis and act like Madara's not a militaristic child groomer who started the Uchiha intergenerational trauma and actively refused to let anybody end the cycle to the point of naming because of how proud he was.Idk i just feel like there's something deeply ironic about Sasusaku being labeled as 'cishet bullshit' while Sasunaru is considered a stepping stone and iconic gay couple despite not ever being canon and calling eachother brothers in-universe and it's worth noting Sasuke expressed she liked Sakura better than Naruto and Naruto never called Gaara,Kiba OR Shikamaru his brother so i think the problem with Sasunaru is just that they don't want the other specifically,not that they're straight LMAO

#sasusaku #pro sasusaku #trans sasusaku #anti sns #sasuke uchiha #sakura haruno #tgirl sasuke #naruto uzumaki #hinata hyuga #ino yamanaka #tenten #temari #karin uzumaki #naruhina #saiino #gaara #kiba inuzuka #shikamaru nara #shikanaru #narugaa #kibanaru #anti madara #itachi uchiha #obito uchiha #anti fugaku #mikoto uchiha #shisui uchiha #nart #💌 #summerposting

[inquebrar]

ok, i need to talk about guapoduo/spiderbit

brace yourselves because i wrote a whole essay about how important is the relationship between these two cubitos. first of all, i think it's important to point out that queer content in the media in general has only received more care in how it is approached recently... has been many years of reinforcing harmful behaviors about how a relationship should be, and that's why it's so easy to recognize when the misconceptions people make about guapoduo are purely because of the excessive misrepresentation gay couples had in the media.

i mean, everyone grew up being influenced by heteronormative views and pre-established patterns of how “couples behave” based on famous cliché teen movies where the behaviors are unhealthy but still extremely romanticized and it gets worse when the "love story" is between two male characters. for example, around 2000-2016 if you were looking for mlm representation, the Boy's Love (cof yaoi cof) at that time reinforced awful stereotypes that unfortunately were used as a basis and reference since then. and because i still remember how toxic the mlm stories were, it feels like a figment of my imagination that guapoduo exists.

their relationship started from: trust and communication. two complex characters in the midst of a chaotic narrative that, just like in real life, has gray areas about what is right and wrong, good and bad, and yet, these two characters are respectful towards their differences and are always ready to welcome each other when facing hardships. they have no problem disagreeing on something: the discussion about "i'd rather lose to make the other person happy" / "winning out of pity isn't a fair victory, it's false happiness" or also "the kids need a protected place to sleep, otherwise they will be in danger" X "living in fear is not living", having arguments about the different perspectives they have is not something that drives them away, it actually just proves that they remain themselves while respecting the fact that they can disagree and that's okay. you can see their personal development as their love evolves too, how positive their presence is in each other's lives and how they quickly created a bond that I dare say not even death can break.

when they're sad, they look for each other for comfort. when they're happy, they look for each other to share the joy. regardless of what happens, they know they can count on each other. they can be surrounded by other people and still orbit their own world, always looking at each other, searching for each other, close to each other with foreheads touching... they are home. no fights due to jealousy or possessiveness, they trust each other 100%. miscommunication? not even once. it's kinda comical how two traumatized, murderous with self sacrificing tendencies cubitos manage to have such a stable and healthy relationship on a crazy island. like wdym they have been married for 5 months?! also, thanks richas we owe you.

#qsmp guapoduo #spiderbit #guapoduo #q!roier #q!cellbit #qsmp character analysis #i love them they make me sick i hate it /lh

[nekropsii]

Hi! I've recently gotten into homestuck and I've read quite a bit of it, as well as other people's blogs analyzing and criticizing the media. I've heard a Lot about Dave's arc being centered around internal homophobia and toxic masculinity, so it surprised me to hear taht you disagreed! I was wondering why you think that, and what are your thoughts on what his arc actually is? I know you don't like writing about the alpha/beta kids, so feel free to ignore this ask completely if you want. Thank you, I hope you have a great day!

Hello, Anon! I'm glad you've been having fun with Homestuck lately!! Despite its many flaws, it is a deeply compelling piece of fiction, and I'm always glad to see new eyes on it and new voices being added to the analytical sphere. To answer your question...

Personally, I have never seen what people are talking about with regards to Dave's whole character arc surrounding overcoming Internalized Homophobia and Toxic Masculinity. These are fundamentally not what his arc is about, and this is never what his arc has ever been about. I'd honestly never seen that analytical lens until after DaveKat rose into prominence (mostly due to Post-Canon's heavy featuring of the pairing), and I feel as if these things are related. It is easier to make easy-to-stomach, shippy angst out of addressing your own personal shortcomings than what Dave's arc is actually about. No shade intended. This is because...

Dave's character arc is, and always has been, about Recovering from Childhood Abuse.

This is the conflict we are made aware of in his introduction, and it's a theme that persists all throughout the story. We meet Dave as a 13 year old boy suffering some pretty extreme abuse at the hands of Bro- Physically, Mentally, Emotionally, and Sexually. Dave's home life is such an active threat that he struggles to even admit to himself that it is abuse in the first place- that's an admission that takes a level of vulnerability that he just could not afford, and it's something he's only left to truly unpack during the Meteor Arc.

I have a couple major problems with the "Toxic Masculinity and Internalized Homophobia" takes. Firstly, Toxic Masculinity is not inherent to any expression of Masculinity. The only Toxically Masculine trait we see that's applicable to Dave is that he struggles deeply with vulnerability and sincerity in his emotions. However... These don't really have anything to do with what his views on what a man is or should be. They have everything to do with the fact that he was abused by someone who punishes any display of weakness, because Bro excused his abuse with it being "Training". Secondly... Dave is Bisexual. Even if the process of Dave struggling to accept being attracted to men was a major point in the story, it would not be called Internalized Homophobia. It would be called Internalized Biphobia, because Dave is canonically Bisexual, not Gay. We have seen Dave be attracted to more women than men, and attraction to both genders was present simultaneously. It was not Compulsory Heterosexuality. If it was, it'd be actually written into the story. Bisexual people exist. This is not a Homophobic argument to make; I am literally a Gay man.

It's anthropologically fascinating how this take arose... Basically out of nowhere from my perspective, especially considering how all of Dave's most iconic dramatic lines have something to do with him having to sort through his own abuse. Does no one remember the rooftop scene between Dave and Dirk, where Dave starts telling Dirk all about the horrible way that Bro raised him, and how deeply it affected him?

If not, I'm posting the most striking part of it here.

[Homestuck, page 7749.]

... So, yeah, no. Dave's character arc is not about "Overcoming Toxic Masculinity and Internalized Homophobia". It's about Abuse. Dave is an Abuse Victim. Point blank period. Any trait even loosely attributable to the ideas of Toxic Masculinity and Internalized Homophobia are a consequence of how he was raised, and how he was abused. This does not mean that this is what his character arc is about. That just means that's included within his character arc. It's a way to show growth, not a way to define his arc in its entirety. That is legitimately not how character writing works. To claim such would be to express a remarkable amount of Tunnel Vision.

Inclusion does not equate to Totality. There is a bigger picture, and that bigger picture is Abuse Recovery.

#homestuck #homestuck meta #homestuck analysis #homestuck fandom #beta kids #beta guardians #dave strider #bro strider #cw abuse #cw child harm #dave.pdf #nekro.pdf #nekro.sms

[mondstalgia]

BL ships that I will never forget:

In a few weeks it's gonna be 14 years of obsessing over queer media, especially BL, so here are the ships always on my mind in no particular order.

Arata & Shingyouji (Takumi-kun Series 4: Pure, 2010): Listen the Takumi-kun Series from 2007 to like 2011 was my life as a (pre-)teen. In hindsight really sketchy but anyway haha. Those two really caught my eye back then though (especially their racy kisses) and I was happy they got their own bigger part in one of the movies.

Evan & Isak (Skam Season 3, 2016): Was there a queer European teen that wasn't obsessed with this season of Skam? I remember re-watching it so many times I could recite their text without speaking Norwegian. Plenty of beautiful Skam universe parallel couples out there but these two will remain the iconic blueprint.

ChenAi (Kiseki: Dear to me, 2023): Almost unfair to put them on here but seeing how I haven't been able to think about any other ship every single day for the last 3 months, I feel like it's justified. They just have everything I want and need to get hyperfixated on.

Seiryo & Yuzuru (Seven Days, 2015): Oh my, the way I loved this silly concept and how funny it was yet they managed to get me all emotionally involved in the span of two movies? Insane chemistry and just..everything I needed back then. Especially since it was then one of the very few BL's I saw without a sad ending.

KornKnock (Bad Romance 2016, Together With Me 2017 - 2018): Listen, plot wise Manner of Death is the absolute height to me but when it comes to MaxTul I will never forget them as Korn and Knock in these series. Forever grateful to all the fanvids that led me to finding my BL fathers. Chemistry forever out of this world. Also shout out to Yiwha, best female character in any BL and my wife.

WinTeam (Until We Meet Again 2019, Between Us 2023): The couple that made me aware of what second lead syndrome was because I waited so long for more of them, it felt eternal. I don't think I will ever get tired of these two.

VegasPete (KinnPorsche, 2022): Who said I couldn't like a toxic ship? These two took me by surprise, I didnt even know they were going to be a ship in the series. Definitely acknowledging how fucked up they are yet at the same time it's the forst toxic ship that really got me. I love them, in my own weird way.

HaoGu (HIStory 3: Make Our Days Count, 2019): I mourned them like I have mourned no other couple. I should have known from the title but they really lead me astray. My beautiful boys, the star crossed lovers. They still get me emotional now, I might go cry now.

Hira & Kiyoi (Utsukushii Kare, 2021 - 2023): Before ChenAi there were Hira and Kiyoi who absolutely owned my heart. I love how misunderstood by BL fans they were who claimed their toxicity. Meanwhile I simply love how weird their relationship is and getting to see a real Tsundere in action. I'm obsessed with them.

Honourable Mention: Kim Jae Wook as Min Sun Woo in Antique Bakery, 2008. The very first gay character I saw in Korean media. Forever iconic, forever in my heart.

#BL series #japanese bl #korean bl #thai bl #taiwanese bl #takumi-kun series #kiseki: dear to me #kiseki dear to me #history 3: make our days count #modc #skam #seven days: monday - Thursday #seven days: friday - sunday #Bounprem #between us #maxtul #natlouis #biblebuild #until we meet again #my beautiful man

[jbaileyfansite]

Jonathan Bailey and Matt Bomer's Interview for WMagazine (2023)

Warning: Spoilers for Fellow Travelers ahead.

Matt Bomer and Jonathan Bailey had a feeling their characters’ sexual escapades in Fellow Travelers would ignite a social media firestorm. But apart from some in-person encounters with fans who watched the Showtime limited series, both actors claim they’ve avoided going down a rabbit hole of reactions to their performances.

“The first week of just seeing a GIF of a toe was kind of alarming,” Bailey says in a joint interview with Bomer. “But when you’re doing a scene like that, you know what function it serves—not just in the story, but in the selling of a TV series. I call it the Trojan toe: You slip it in, get people watching, and by the time they get to [that moment], they’ll understand exactly what the show’s setting out to explore.”

Adapted from Thomas Mallon’s 2007 novel, Fellow Travelers chronicles the clandestine romance between Hawkins Fuller (Bomer), a debonair State Department employee, and Tim Laughlin (Bailey), a wide-eyed college graduate, who fall in love at the height of McCarthyism and the Lavender Scare in 1950s Washington D.C. As they weave in and out of each other’s lives across multiple decades, Hawk and Tim’s enduring relationship hurtles toward a devastating conclusion in the 1980s. Following Tim’s terminal AIDS diagnosis, Hawk visits his lover—whom he has nicknamed “Skippy”—one last time in San Francisco, where they both come to terms with the significance of their volatile romance.

“A lot of people feel seen—not just by the sex scenes, but by aspects of queer identity on the show,” Bomer says. “That’s the hope, right? That whatever you’re pouring your heart and soul into resonates with somebody or makes them feel seen.”

On a recent visit to New York City, Bailey and Bomer were affable and laid-back—a far cry from the brooding, tortured characters that have defined their respective careers. Bouncing ideas off each other, the charming costars spoke with W about their approach to telling their characters’ epic love story, the surreal experience of shooting their final scene together, and what to expect from Maestro and the next season of Bridgerton.

Why does Hawk and Tim’s connection make them question everything they thought they knew about themselves?

Jonathan Bailey: You will never really know what Hawk and Tim would’ve been like [as a full-fledged couple]. You can’t judge them on anything, because there’s a survival element at play, which reflects the brutality of the world they were born into. As [the show] expands and this liberation blooms, we see more of [Hawk’s wife] Lucy [played by Allison Williams] and the impact of Hawk’s decisions on the characters around him.

To me, it’s a love story for the ages because you can follow any thread and it comes back to the political backdrop. But ultimately, there’s a real meeting of souls between the two. They complete each other in a way that’s so painful. But in a world where joy, connection and absolution are so hard to find, especially in the ’50s for gay men, it becomes addictive, and there are toxic cycles that come from it.

Matt Bomer: There are aspects of their own personal trauma that are complementary of each other.

JB: And they feed the other’s insecurities.

MB: The sad thing is, when Hawk is finally at a place where he can be his most authentic self and be available and empathetic enough to be a real partner in a relationship, it’s too late.

Hawk has a very specific moral code as a gay man living a double life in the 20th century: He is clearly able to show genuine affection for Tim, but he needs control in his relationships and is able to code-switch in public. Tim doesn’t understand Hawk’s ability to compartmentalize his life, but he still finds Hawk irresistible. How did you want to embody the many contradictions of your characters?

MB: For me, it all went back to Hawk’s childhood and that horrific incident that happened with his father [and his first love, Kenny]. He refuses to be a victim, so he’s going to find a way to survive and thrive in whatever way he can. It all ties into the fact that he will never be the victim of a homophobic society or family again.

JB: What Tim’s really drawn to in Hawk is his center. Hawk is the epicenter of all these people’s worlds because he doesn’t afford them space to veer him off in any direction. Tim’s always there for Hawk when he needs him, but Hawk’s never really there for Tim, and that is something Tim is drawn to. Tim’s quest in life is his desperate need for a groundedness, and the choice I made early on was to physicalize Tim so that his inner and outer world were matched.

Tim finds it really hard to lie; he can’t not be completely transparent. The decoding of Hawk is something that fills all sorts of needs in Tim. But as he gets older and [society’s] way of thinking aligns with his need to disassemble the cards he’s been given, Tim finds a stillness and a calm, which is reflected in the way he can then handle Hawk.

MB: Hawk does have his allegiances and his own sense of empathy, but if it comes down to anything that’s going to threaten his survival, he can go full Scorpio and cut it off. [He’s] a little Mother Teresa, a little Tony Soprano. [Laughs.]

JB: And in the performing of [those scenes], Tim felt so much more love than I thought he would. In episode two, I think it became more confusing to play Tim in the best possible way, because when he says, “I don’t understand you” [to Hawk], it’s because he can see the palpable empathy, love, and compassion. That is just as real as everything else, and that is a bind for Tim and really hard to step away from. When they look at each other, there’s no one else that’s ever existed. And if you’re lucky enough to have that with someone, it’s really hard to let that go.

There are little details that anchor each of Hawk and Tim’s sex scenes—the eye contact, the importance of consent, the shifting power dynamics, the negotiation of how much of yourself you’re willing to give to another person. How did you want to subvert traditional depictions of queer intimacy?

MB: We were so fortunate that those scenes were just an extension of the story, that the relationship was never the same after one of those scenes as it was before. It was always an externalization of what was going on with the characters internally.

JB: I think it’s a rule that [creator] Ron [Nyswaner] learned on Homeland where every single scene has to further the story—and that’s true of the sex scenes. Because there haven’t necessarily been elevated, eight-hourlong gay dramas like this; there was space to breathe, and that constant negotiation between the two of them is so vital. I remember speaking to [executive producer/director] Dan Minahan in Toronto. We had a good few hours, and we ended up talking about intimacy and how you can capture it on film. The thing that I understand [from] enjoying love stories or intimacy on film is the moments where they surprise each other.

MB: Yeah! It’s not like Hawk’s pushing the envelope the whole time; Tim upends Hawk as much as Hawk upends Tim’s expectations.

JB: We basically started with the chicken soup [scene in episode one], when Hawk seduces Tim for the first time. By the time we were in episode four, we were really emboldened as a team. As Jonny and Matt, we were always whispering, “This is absolutely fine, if you want to do this.” For so many people, it’s bizarre to think of that as a job. But when the material is as rich as this, no stone will go unturned into [depicting] how intricate, sensitive, celebratory, and joyful those moments are.

MB: I believe everybody should get to play every role, but I think the fact that we’re both openly gay men lent an ease and an understanding of a lot of the aspects of the relationship.

JB: You can have conversations between yourselves of why your instincts are cropping up in those moments. It was a bit like when, just before they dive, synchronized divers do that thing where they jump up and clap.

MB: [Laughs.] That was us! And there’s no [going] halfway in scenes like those that are written in this [show]. You know you have to go all the way.

Knowing that the entire emotional weight of their relationship rests on the penultimate line, “Promise you won’t write,” what did you want to convey in Hawk and Tim’s final scene together outside the governor’s ball? What do you remember from shooting their goodbye scene?

MB: I remember everything about that day.

JB: Yeah, I do too. Everything was in hyper-focus. It was overwhelming.

MB: It’s one of those scenes that you’re really glad you didn’t have to shoot on day two, because we had five and a half months of history [with] these characters. It was one of the last things we filmed together.

JB: I left [Toronto] early as well [to shoot Bridgerton], so we didn’t finish [shooting] together. We finished the love story in that scene.

MB: Yes, that’s right. It was one of those days at work where you have to try to get out of your own way and trust that all you’ve invested in these roles and these relationships will be inside of you. You don’t have to try to force or push anything; you have to just try to keep it alive and spontaneous when the cameras are rolling.

JB: I think we filmed it in the first take, didn’t we?

MB: Yeah.

JB: There are moments in that scene when it was like the world melted away. It’s amazing to see Tim establish his boundaries and be really kind with it. In that moment, he’s fully centered and aligned, and Hawk helps give him that final push to go, “I know what I’m doing, and what I’m saying is the right thing.” He’s never really known that with Hawk.

MB: Yeah, Hawk is finally emotionally vulnerable. I had every intention of coming into that scene and not letting any emotional vulnerability creep through, but it’s just one of those things where the scene takes over and you don’t want to block it.

Have either of you given much thought to what a second season of Fellow Travelers could look like?

JB: What I hope this [season] will be is a trampette into telling other queer stories, because two white gay men are the way in [to start a larger conversation], and it would be so interesting to have a world explored of [Jelani Alladin’s] Marcus and [Noah J. Ricketts’] Frankie. They were such a massive reason why I was like, “Okay, this is going to be good.”

MB: They weren’t in the book, and it was so important from the creatives that we included that narrative.

JB: I would totally come back and support Frankie’s story.

MB: Yeah, I would come in and do two days—whatever they need me for.

JB: Frankie and Marcus up front, and I’ll be there.

Surely, we all deserve to have the two of you star in a rom-com together (with a happier ending than this one).

JB: If someone comes up with it... Who would be the dream?

MB: To direct?

JB: Yeah. Luca Guadagnino?

MB: Yes, Luca or Andrew Haigh.

JB: We’ll do it!

MB: We’re there. And Russell T. Davies, if it’s a miniseries.

Have you discussed collaborating again in the future?

MB: Listen, sign me up to work with Jonathan Bailey any time. [They shake hands.] I will bring a tray to his character at the dinner table in a scene.

JB: Stop it. As long as it’s [like] Upstairs, Downstairs…

MB: [Laughs.] Yes, exactly. I would love that. Next time, I have to be British though. And I’ll come to London.

JB: I’ll be a Texan cowboy. [They laugh.]

In addition to Fellow Travelers, you both have new projects that will be debuting in the coming months. Matt, what were some of your takeaways from working with Bradley Cooper on Maestro?

MB: Bradley is such a generous and beyond talented scene partner—and his style of directing is so electric and present. He wants everything happening on the camera for the first time. I feel like I was really the beneficiary of his process before I started work on Fellow Travelers because I got to watch him and Carey [Mulligan] travel through all these phases of their multidecade romance. And then, [I was] getting to work with Johnny—who’s so similar in many regards, so generous, always keeping you on your toes and bringing things to the material that make the scene richer.

JB: Has Bradley watched Fellow Travelers?

MB: I keep telling him to! And Carey says she wants to. She keeps asking me where it’s on in England.

The third season of Bridgerton will premiere in two parts on May 16 and June 13, 2024. Jonathan, what new layers of Kate (Simone Ashley) and Anthony’s relationship will we see in the new season?

JB: I’m a massive fan of “Kanthony.” There’s so much to enjoy for both of them now, and we explore that in season three. They’ve overcome a lot. [We’re] talking about the need for communication in a romance, and that study of how they communicate and how little they did communicate until the very end [of season two]. So now, we can see them completely celebrate each other for who they are. There are really lovely conversations about heritage and familial roles, and once you meet someone who understands you fully, having sacrificed so much for the families as they both have, how exciting [it is] to make decisions that might change the course for them [as a couple].

Source

#fellow travelers #jonathan bailey #matt bomer #interviews #interviews:2023 #wmagazine interview #NEW!

[the-conversation-pod]

Let's Go, Lesbians! (A Japanese GL Episode)

And we're back! This week we're back with @ginnymoonbeam to talk about Toxic Yuri in Chaser Game W and Food Yuri in She Loves to Cook, and She Loves to Eat. Join us as we talk about pouring champagne on your ex's head, slapping your mean boss and her big ass red outfit into next week, choosing yourself over your cruel family, becoming the best gay you can be, and marshmallow parties.

Also, because we did not talk about it in the recording, we want to repost Rina Sawayama's Chosen Family song because this scene was so powerful in SLTCSLTE.

Timestamps

The timestamps will now correspond with chapters on Spotify for easier navigation.

00:00:00 - Welcome 00:01:15 - Introduction 00:02:45 - Chaser Game W: A Flop 00:18:31 - She Loves To Cook, and She Loves To Eat 00:23:14 - SLTCSLTE: The Women 00:34:18 - SLTCSLTE: Yako and The New House 00:39:17 - SLTCSLTE: The Food and Nagumo 00:43:02 - SLTCSLTE: Depictions of Intimacy 00:50:53 - SLTCSLTE Ratings and Outro

The Conversation Transcripts!

Thanks to the continued efforts of @ginnymoonbeam as transcriber, and @lurkingshan as an editor and proofreader, we are able to bring you transcripts of the episodes.

We will endeavor to make the transcripts available when the episodes launch, and it is our goal to make them available for past episodes (Coming soon thanks to @wen-kexing-apologist). When transcripts are available, we will attach them to the episode post (like this one) and put the transcript behind a Read More cut to cut down on scrolling.

Please send our volunteers your thanks!

00:00:00 - Welcome

NiNi

Welcome to The Conversation About BL, aka The Brown Liquor Podcast.

Ben

And there it is. I’m Ben.

NiNi

I’m NiNi.

Ben

And we’re your drunk Caribbean uncle and auntie here sitting on the porch in the rocking chairs.

NiNi

Four times a year we pop in to talk about what’s going on in the BL world.

Ben

We shoot the shit about stories and all the drama going into them. I review from a queer media lens.

NiNi

And I review from a romance and drama lens.

Ben

So if you like cracked-out takes and really intense emotional analysis…

NiNi

If you like talking about artistry, industry, and the discourse…

Ben

And if you generally just love simping…

NiNi

There is a lot of simping on this podcast…

Ben

We are the show for you!

00:01:15 - Introduction

Ben

And we're back. This week, we're talking about lesbians, finally! And we brought a friend along.

NiNi

Say hi Ginny.

Ginny

Hello!

NiNi

Ginny is here with us and we are going to talk two Japanese GLs, Chaser Game W and She Loves to Cook and She Loves to Eat. 

Ben, what did you think, like, sort of overarching about these two before we delve into the nitty gritty?

Ben

I thought Chaser Game W gave us a lot to anticipate early on, and unfortunately went in the direction we did not want it to go. Ended up being kind of a mess toward the end? I did not end up walking away too happy with it. 

With She Loves to Cook and She Loves to Eat season 2, this time we had twenty 15-minute episodes and they had things to do and say with that time and I have a lot of things to say about that show. [laughs]

NiNi

Ginny, what are your overarching thoughts about these two shows?

Ginny

I had high hopes for Chaser Game W because I always want more toxic lesbians. [NiNi laughs] I want to see the girls get to be messy, I want to see complicated dynamics. And I did really enjoy the first couple episodes, but it kind of felt like the characterizations really fell apart as the series progressed, which was a big disappointment. 

She Loves to Cook and She Loves to Eat was a delight. Every time I sat down to watch it, my heart was full and happy and warm.

00:02:45 - Chaser Game W: A Flop

NiNi

We always go from worst to first on this show, so let's start with Chaser Game W. 

Ben, what is Chaser Game W about?

Ben

Chaser Game W is about a team of women at a game development studio in Japan who have been contracted to develop basically a demo for a GL adaptation, by a Chinese company named Vincent. It gets complicated by their project manager from the Chinese team, who clearly has beef with one of their team members and just spends most of the early show fucking with her because she's mad that they broke up in college. And then a bunch of other shit happens that is kind of weird.

NiNi

Okay, that's a hell of a description [laughs].

Ben

I'm sorry! Like, it starts off being a show that looks like it's playing into the complex dynamics about workplace power and possibly sexual harassment, and then kind of loses its way because it wants to be this mess of a story about lesbians with families and the difficult choices they have to make, and where do the husbands and children fit in this, and how does this play into career expectations? Bosses who might also be queer but evil queers?

And it's not necessarily a very coherent experience. There's a lot of ideas that sound good when you describe them to people, but in practice really weren't that satisfying to watch. This was not the Japanese GL experience I was hoping for.

NiNi

Ginny, what about you? What are your thoughts on Chaser Game W?

Ginny

It did seem like it was setting up to have some messages about not only the sexuality components, but also things about women in the workplace and being a mother and balancing those expectations… dealing with sexual harassment… all of that. But it didn't end up saying much that was meaningful to me about it, it just was like, ‘these are issues!’ If you try to draw any kind of conclusion from what the show is doing, you end up with some really messy messages. 

The way that the evil queer boss came in was so funny to me. One of the selling points of this show is this strong femdom, woman in power exacting humiliation dynamic. But halfway through the show, we're resolving the relationship between the two women, so Fuyu, our previous femdom power boss, is not going to be that anymore. So we have to bring in a new one — and it just did not work for me.

NiNi

It was the dom getting dommed. It was like an inception of domming. It was a little strange. There were definitely some Chinese-Japanese dynamics in there. I don't have the cultural competency to pick up on entirely what they were doing, but it was pretty clear from the way that the show was operating. I don't know if it's stereotype, but it was clear that there was something going on there; my cultural competency in this area is not enough to figure out exactly what was going on there.

Ben

It was kind of weird seeing a Japanese show complaining about unrealistic expectations of Chinese developers? This is not a uniquely Chinese problem.

NiNi

I feel like it being set in gaming almost didn't matter to that side of things? They wanted to have this difference the show sees in working cultures be stark and to say something about that difference. But the supposed center of this, aside from the game and the development of the game, is a relationship between Fuyu and Itsuki. It's an extremely convoluted central story that just seems to serve as an excuse for why Fuyu, when she comes back to Japan, hates Itsuki so much. 

The writing feels slightly unnecessarily complicated, but I actually rather enjoyed quite a lot of bits of this. I enjoyed, for example, the direction. I thought the camera was very assured, I thought it was very clear. I don't know if this is an original story or if it's coming from manga, but the direction is very very clear to me. I really enjoyed watching the camera move. The shots are really effective. But the story itself? It's not like I thought necessarily that… the story was badly told? I'm just not sure that it was the story that I wanted. Where we're going in the beginning with Fuyu, a mean lesbian comes back and is mean to her ex-girlfriend, I felt like, okay, that's where we're going. And then, suddenly, Fuyu is married and Fuyu has a daughter and there's all this stuff around the husband and Fuyu’s feelings, or not-feelings, about the husband. It got a little muddy. 

But even with all of that, I think I probably enjoyed it more than you guys did. And I think part of the reason is that I binged it? So I didn't sit with a lot of these feelings or a lot of the confusion for very long.

Ben

It was not a fun week to week watch. As it started to deviate and get lost in itself, it was not fun to be like, 'oh right, this is where we were, all right, let's go and see how this week goes. Ohh… no. Okay.' 

You asked about whether it's original or an adaptation. It is an adaptation. The original work is about power harassment, but I believe Itsuki’s character is a man? A lot about the show made sense once we realized that it was not an original queer story being adapted. A lot of it felt really tacked on to justify the drama and not really something that the writing really contextualized or dwelled on, at all.

Ginny

There were a lot of big character turns and big decisions made without a lot of grounding in why this character would make this choice. Once the mystery of their past is explained, you do understand why they reconcile suddenly, but then all of their choices afterwards just felt baffling to me. I'm not getting any kind of character journey. The show is like, well, this happens now, and then this happens now, and then they do this thing that you didn't expect. And I want to know why!

NiNi

I… feel like in some bits I was cottoning onto it, and then in some bits I was not. For example, when Itsuki starts to take care of Fuyu’s daughter, when she comes over and realizes that the husband's left and her daughter needs taking care of. I followed that bit of the character journey. I understood in some ways why, when the husband came back, Fuyu felt maybe guilty? 

There was also, like, a little thing which I was really surprised didn't go anywhere. Early in the show the husband was video chatting with, I think his mother. And she says something like, 'you know, you have to be good to Fuyu. You're so lacking, and she is with you anyway.' that made me think that their marriage was lavender? I genuinely thought that they had some kind of arrangement or agreement — and then to find out later down the line that the husband actually was in love with her and was jealous of the thing that she had with Itsuki? That came out of nowhere for me. And then everything that followed on from there kind of didn't track, almost. 

Did either of you get that feeling initially from the husband and were surprised or was that just me?

Ginny

My sense was that the husband had been perceived as not a good marriage prospect. Probably it was not earning a lot of money and had other loserish qualities or something. So my sense from the conversation was that that was what she was talking about. I certainly didn't ever get the sense that he was in love with her, exactly? Even when he's upset, it felt more to me kind of about pride. You can't have your wife sleeping around. That's an embarrassment. I don't think there were any deep feelings in that marriage.

NiNi

I don't even think either of them really had extremely deep feelings for their daughter. Like I think Fuyu loves her daughter, but in a distracted kind of way, almost? The only depth of feeling that I felt anywhere was between Fuyu and Itsuki, and even that was tied up in all this anger and bitterness and guilt and whatever else. That's a direction to go in for sure, but it really didn't make me understand why they wanted to be together, and then why they decided not to be together… and then in the end, why Fuyu comes back out of nowhere. 

It's all muddled and mixed for me, especially the closer that we get to the end. But like I said, I don't think that I had as bad a time with it as other people might have.

Ben

I had a very bad time. [Ben and NiNi laugh] 

This show was aggravating. We've been talking about this a lot on the show lately about how much work we think we should do for a show to like, meet them emotionally, where they're trying to take us. There are times when either the writing or the performance doesn't necessarily get you all the way there? And you kind of have to just feel it for the show. But this show just does not feel complete. There are a bunch of ideas that are fine on their own, like, ‘and then she comes in here and then she pours a fucking champagne on her head.’ That's an unhinged lesbian behavior that I have seen happen in person! So like, I totally believed that.

NiNi

Oh yeah.

Ben

But then Fuyu’s turn where she’s suddenly nice to other women in the company that they're in and stops being a huge dick to the other moms, that just doesn't really track? Like, what changed in that moment? I don't really know how we went there. They had her suddenly start being nice to them so they could be on the same team against Big Red.

NiNi

I'm so mad that you called her Big Red, but it kinda works. [Ben and NiNi laugh] I'm not gonna call her anything except Big Red now.

Ben

I did not remember what her character name was. Her name was Big Red.

Ginny

That's her name now, yep [laughs].

Ben

Like it was funny when Itsuki was like, 'Fuck off, Big Red' and knocked her ass down. [all laugh]

All these moments are like, well, that was amusing on its own, but it doesn't really come together as a coherent story unto itself. There’s this huge branching point later on where it's basically the supporting cast trying to seduce a guy to give them information to save the game, and that's happening separately from the drama with Itsuki, Fuyu, Fuyu’s husband, Big Red and all the drama going on there. 

NiNi 

I want to talk a little bit about the actual game development plot, because that stuff was wild. They're preparing whatever they have to do to develop this game, and along the way they're going through literal sexual harassment. There's a point in time that they're trying to get information from this artist. And this guy is a caricature of a sexual harasser, like at one point there are five of these female game developers in his house, and they're literally peeling this guy off of each other as he gropes them. And I'm just like, is this normal or is this exaggerated? I don't even know?

Ben 

Actually, it felt like most of that was actually normal. 

NiNi 

That is terrifying. 

Ben 

The drama with the team felt pretty straightforward for me. You had women in the team having varied responses to the sexual harassment. One of them was like, 'I will absolutely not compromise myself and use sex to get ahead' and another one was like, 'I will, I got this for us.' [Ben and NiNi laugh] I thought that was fine. I didn't mind there being a character who is willing to use men's desire to advance her goals and her team’s goals. I liked that it wasn't required only for her to do that, that there were other people who didn't want to do it that way accomplishing things for their team. The up and down of, ‘is this game going to get developed or not, the expectations of our client keep changing, it seems to be for reasons well beyond us and other drama’ — that felt fairly normal for trying to get any sort of major creative endeavor with the expensive team off the ground. Most of the game development stuff tracked normally for me. Even the whole plot line about poaching talent and then dumping talent: that is a real problem right now. That sort of stuff mostly tracked for me. I wasn't that fussed about the game development stuff and the workplace conditions that they were working under. 

It was the stuff about Fuyu and Itsuki's relationship and the motivations around them romantically, and other characters’ reactions to it, that is where I struggled the most with this. It wasn't a show that left you in a cool place at the end of an episode and picked up in a great place with the next episode. Spending two months watching this was not a great experience. 

NiNi 

I think my rating’s definitely going to be higher than you guys, so I'll go first. 

Ben 

Okay. 

NiNi 

I'm gonna say 7. To me, bits are cool and I can follow generally where this is going, and the bits that I thought were weird were not offensive. It wasn’t very good, but it wasn't terrible. 

Ben 

Ginny? 

Ginny 

I gave it a 5.5. 6 is my mad-I-watched-it threshold. Anything 6 or higher might be very bad, but I'm not mad I watched it. Below a 6 I'm kind of mad that I watched it. That's where this one landed for me. 

Fuyu was very beautiful, and I did enjoy watching her every week. But when that's the nicest thing I have to say about a show, it's not good. 

Ben 

It gave this a 4. It is not recommended. I don't think this is a good lesbian story. I don't think this is a good game development story. I don't think it's a good workplace story. It is a mess. This was developed by the same person who made His the movie, so I am very confused how we ended up with something that absolutely failed on the queer front like this. I do not get it. When this show was confused, it lands on the wrong side of the coin a lot. And it felt like at the very last five minutes they were doing a shit ton of clean up. I don't think this show is worthwhile. 

NiNi 

That's gonna land us somewhere in the 5ish range overall?

Ben 

Round it down, because it sucks! [all laugh] It gets a 5 from The Conversation. 

NiNi 

So that is officially a chop. 

00:18:31 - She Loves To Cook, and She Loves To Eat

NiNi 

All right. So we're gonna leave that behind and we're going to move on to She Loves to Cook, and She Loves to Eat. 

Ben, give us the synopsis. What is She Loves to Cook, and She Loves to Eat about?

Ben 

Okay, let me be much nicer now because this is one of my favorite shows now. So, [laughs] She Loves to Cook, and She Loves to Eat is like the lesbian neighbor of What Did You Eat Yesterday? We have a young woman who's a programmer. She feels like she's like late 20s, early 30s. Her name is Nomoto. She runs like a food account on Instagram, and whenever she's in a bad mood and needs to work through some stuff, she ends up making too much food, and she has a small appetite, so it goes to waste. She has a neighbor who is a taller, bigger woman, and on a whim one night she invites her over to share food with her. And this is the beginning of their friendship that eventually becomes a more serious relationship.

Second season picks up with twice as many episodes, and boy did they need them. We spend this season with Nomoto and Kasuga befriending their new, younger woman neighbor. Nomoto becomes a full-time employee at her work and develops a more reliable friendship with Sayama. She also befriends her Twitter friend Yako, who is basically one of us. She loves her stories, she loves her little food, and she loves hearing about other people's drama and poking them to get their shit together. I love her so much. 

It was a really delightful season watching these two grow closer, figure out what their relationship was going to be, and develop that into more as they dealt with some of their real personal and professional issues. I really, truly loved the season. 

Ginny, you were fairly recent to watching this, so you watched the first and second season basically as one dedicated viewing experience. What was your experience engaging with this for the first time in the last month or so? 

Ginny 

It was very fun. I did this as my unwinding as I was moving in with my girlfriend who is the loves to eat in our relationship, where I'm the loves to cook. So it was a lovely experience. The two seasons flow so seamlessly into each other. Season 2 picks up right where season 1 left off so I'm kind of glad I did it this way. I think I might have been a little frustrated at the end of season 1, especially having to wait and not knowing if we'd get more, because they don't entirely confirm their relationship by the end of that? It's understood that they're very important to each other and they have this very meaningful place in each other's lives, celebrating holidays together, but they don't even start to have conversations about what their relationship is until we're a little ways into season 2. So I'm glad that I got to watch it all unfold as a single story. 

So many details of, just the way that that develops between them felt so realistic to journeys that I've seen between two women who are close friends and realize that they might have romantic feelings for each other. All of the angsting you do about that, and the 'what does this mean' and the 'what does it even mean to love someone romantically instead of as just this very special, most importantest friend in the world,' — just so many little details were perfectly done and extremely relatable. It was just gorgeous. 

Ben 

NiNi, since you watched the first season and angsted with the rest of us about whether or not it was going to come back, and whether or not that second season was gonna be good, what were your overall impressions of the second season after you walked away from it? 

NiNi 

I loved it, but I knew I was going to love it. I had some angst in the middle of the season that we're probably gonna get to, not bad angst. Just, ‘oh, I wonder if they're doing this thing that I think that they're doing.’ But I thoroughly enjoyed it. 

I love so much how the show expands in this season. The first season is very tightly focused, mostly on Nomoto and Kasuga, whereas this season expands outward to show you some of the other people in their life and show you them developing their relationships with these other people, some new, some not. I always love stories that show you the life that these people are living. So I thoroughly enjoyed this season, had a great time with it. 

00:23:14 - SLTCSLTE: The Women

Ben

There were a lot of presentations of various women's issues that played out this season. Do the two of you have particular storylines that you especially enjoyed, or connected to?

Ginny

I love Nagumo's story. I think the one I connected to most was probably Kasuga, but I thought bringing in Nagumo as someone who could receive some mentorship from these two women and also [laughs] kind of help coach Kasuga through her feelings revelation, and relationship transition… it was a beautiful relationship and a wonderful addition, and the way that her character brings a different perspective on the whole nature of food and communal eating was also just a gorgeous touch.

Ben

What about you, NiNi? Did you have a particular plot line that you enjoyed or connected to?

NiNi

We got some stuff on the fringes about Sayama trying to date and looking to potentially get married, realizing and talking to Nomoto that she can't get married if she wants to, and then that leading Sayama to think about whether she even wants to get married. That resonated in a particular kind of way. It was a quiet little side runner, it didn't take up a lot of space in the story, but it did hit me. We end the season without really an answer from Sayama on that, but the fact that she started thinking about it? That resonated with me, for sure.

Ben

What I love about Sayama as a straight character in this narrative is: queer people don't fit the heterosexual mold, and loving queer people forces you to reckon with why we don't. And then that can often open up things for you, as well. I really loved her apology scene with Nomoto. Recognizing that her working through her own ambivalence about marriage is dismissive of the fact that it's not even an option available for Nomoto.

Ginny

You also have Kasuga's coworker, who's older and is getting a divorce after her children have grown up. Getting a divorce is extremely liberating for her. It really does show this kind of 360 view of heterosexual marriage not necessarily being right for all heterosexual women.

Ben

I think it's notable that when they show multiple older women working at this grocery store, they're all like, 'mm-mm, divorce was the right call for me, because I don't think it's right that I'm expected to take care of my husband's family and everybody else does nothing, and that's gonna be my entire existence.' And I love how explicit she was, she told Kasuga straight up: if you were my own daughter, who I do have, I would tell her the same thing, and I would say please live your life. Do not sacrifice your life for a bunch of other people who do not appreciate what you want for your life. Because Kasuga decided to sever ties with her family, because they did not respect her and they wanted her to just take care of them, and sacrifice anything she wanted for her life. It was really lovely that the show went out of its way to be explicit about that.

NiNi

Since we're already sort of diving into it, let's lean into that storyline. Kasuga left home a long time ago and decided to live her life. Kasuga has a brother who is the favored child, but Kasuga’s brother does nothing. Now Kasuga's parents are older and ill, and her grandparents are older and ill and need taking care of. And so Kasuga's dad has started looking for her now. He's like, 'Well, you're not married, whatever you're doing isn't important, you gotta come home and take care of everybody.' It only comes to her doorstep because her aunt gives her father both her number and address, because 'oh, you’re a family, you shouldn’t not talk to each other.' Her aunt thinks she's doing the right thing, but this is definitely not the right thing for Kasuga. Kasuga's father has never appreciated her as a person, has never cared about her as a person, has only focused on his son. And now he wants Kasuga to take care of him essentially until he dies. Kasuga really struggles with this. She wonders, is this my responsibility? Is this something that I have to do? Is she a bad daughter if she doesn't do this? What does this mean for her? Fujita tells her, 'Look, if you were my daughter, I would tell you do not go. You don't have a responsibility to give up your life for somebody else.'

All the conversations that Kasuga has with her father, she has them in her car. She does not talk to him when she is in her house, her safe space? She does not speak to her father in there. When she has decided that she's not going home, not just not going home, but never going home again, she sits in the car and has the conversation where she tells him, 'I'm not ever coming home. Don't contact me again.' And then she goes from the car straight to Nomoto. And Nomoto gets so furious on her behalf that she starts to cry. She's like, 'I can't believe that this man made you feel this way about yourself. He's a horrible person.' Basically, everything that Kasuga needed to hear, she got from Nomoto in that moment. 

I am an eldest daughter. I have a fantastic relationship with my family. And any caregiving I do is of my own volition, and I am happy to do it. It is still tiring. It is still exhausting. Even when it is received with gratitude and happiness and love, it is hard to do. If you have to take care of people who don't care about you? You can feel like you're dying. I am certain about it. That expectation being placed on you is hard enough. To do it for people [who] do not love you — because I do not think Kasuga’s father loves her — is impossible. And so I had a lot of feelings about it while it was happening, but watching her say, 'No, I am not going to just let go of my entire life and everything that I want for this person.' 

And then to have Fujita tell her, 'if you were my daughter,' which releases her from that burden of thinking about her mother — because that's the other part of the guilt that she's feeling. Not necessarily guilt towards her father, but the fact that if she doesn't come home, her mother's gonna have to do all of this. And she thinks about her mother all the time. It's just, it's so much. It's so deep. It's so intense. It's so delicious. And it's not what you expect to get out of a story that's told in little 15-minute episodes! It really isn't.

Ginny

I'm also an eldest daughter and feel so much of that. I spent my childhood, really, like Kasuga, very aware that there were a lot of things I was expected to give up. The way that that sinks into your brain… you just feel like, 'I am worth what I can do for people.' 

What struck me the most in that conversation with Nomoto when Kasuga first tells her what she's done, is Nomoto begs her to keep living her life here where she's thriving, and to keep being happy. Through their whole relationship, Nomoto has taken such joy in Kasuga’s love of eating and just celebrated that this gives you pleasure and you're taking pleasure, and that's a wonderful thing. And in this moment, she kind of expands it to Kasuga's whole life. And she says, please don't ever go somewhere where you can't thrive, where you can't feel joy, where you can't feel loved, and yourself. To hear someone say that? I think I did cry in that scene. You need to hear someone say that. Someone who grew up like Kasuga needs someone who loves you begging you to take care of yourself and to do what brings you joy. The heart of their relationship and what draws them together is how deeply Nomoto celebrates Kasuga taking care of herself and being taken care of and experiencing pleasure. It's beautiful.

Ben

I really enjoyed the way that continued in the whole strawberry debacle.

NiNi

[laughs] The strawberry thing. It was so funny. [Ginny laughs] It was so cute, too. It was really cute. This is after they've started dating, but their relationship hasn't changed very much. And so she asked Nagumo, is there something that she should be doing? Which I found adorable.

Ginny

It's so real.

Ben

It's funny, too, because Nagumo admits she doesn't have much experience either [Ginny laughs], and is like, 'You could, like, go do things you both like doing? Together? That sounds right.' [all laugh]

NiNi

It’s so funny. And that's when she sees this flyer for the strawberry picking. And she's like, 'Oh, okay, I like strawberry picking. I should ask Nomoto to go strawberry picking with me. That's like the kind of thing that people do when they're in relationships, right?'

Ben

'That's, like, a food thing. She likes to make food. This might be fun!' Kasuga doesn't really say what she wants to do, she just hands it to Nomoto and is like, 'Hey, I thought this might be fun for us to do' and Nomoto’s like, 'Oh, yeah, that sounds great. We can maybe go vegetable picking and then make some stuff afterwards.' And Kasuga doesn't really speak up about what she maybe wanted. 

Late in the day Nomoto realizes Kasuga maybe wanted to go check out a restaurant in the area, and wanted to maybe do strawberry picking instead. And Nomoto ends up feeling so bad about this, feeling like she was not really receptive to what Kasuga actually wanted, and like she was steamrolling her. This plays out across almost two or three episodes, but the culmination is Nomoto saying very clearly to Kasuga, 'I want you to be selfish with me. I want you to feel like you can want things and express them. It's really important to me that you are doing the things you enjoy.'

Ginny

And Kasuga admits that that's hard for her. Another moment that rang so true for me, for both of them.

Ben

So much of their relationship is Nomoto getting intense pleasure [laughs] out of watching Kasuga enjoy herself.

00:34:18 - SLTCSLTE: Yako and The New House

Ben

I'd like to talk about my favorite character of the season.

NiNi

Ben wants to talk about Yako. Let's go.

Ben

Yako is the best thing that has happened to BL and GL in the last two years. [laughs]

NiNi

She's really just like us. [laughs]

Ben

No character’s been a better audience stand in than an asexual lesbian enjoying her wine and her takeout, watching gay movies with other girls, and then hearing about their relationship drama and giving completely reasonable advice by just asking questions.

Ginny

Best life.

Ben

I love her so much. She is everything that I am trying to be every day. [NiNi laughs] And she's good at it! [laughs] She never tells anybody, 'Just do it.' She's just like, 'What are you feeling? How do you feel if you don't do it? Well, there you go.’

And then they have the curry party? That looked like so much fun. They all go over to Yako's house and meet her properly. Nomoto and Kasuga take Nagumo with them. And they make a bunch of different curry, and naan, and some fancy juice, and they have themselves a good-ass time. And this leads to Yako becoming friends with Nagumo, and she ends up becoming a confidante to Nagumo as well. She recognizes after the girls reveal they're gonna move out that somebody should check on Nagumo, who has probably gotten used to having two really reliable neighbors who care about her, and how Nagumo might be anxious about saying, like, she misses them and still wants to see them. Even as Nagumo admits, moving out is the right call for them, I love that Yako gave Nagumo space to admit that she was a bit bummed that she was gonna not be living next to two solid friends anymore. 

I love Yako so much. She is in competition for blorbo of the year.

NiNi

Yako has the best ideas for parties, too, like the first time she had the watch party with Nomoto, they've both got snacks and drinks, and they're talking about what they've got for their snacks and their drinks and then they watch a lesbian movie and they cry. [Ben and Ginny laugh] It’s so good. Literally, Yako is really just like us. 

The only thing I'm sad about in this entire season is that Sayama hasn't yet become a part of this whole little group that they have, but she will. I know she will.

Ben

They just moved in together. They got a big space. There's room for Fujita and Sayama to show up for another party they're gonna have. These two could host all six major female characters at their new place. 

Let's talk about the new place while we're here. Where…?

[all laugh]

NiNi

Go ahead. I know you want to.

Ben

I love Kasuga. I love everything about her. I love her big chair, I love her big bed, I love her big TV. I need to know where these things are going to go in the new space. [NiNi laughs] Nomoto is totally fine to just use her iPad as her fill-in device for all of her tech needs and entertainment needs. I understand Kasuga. When I moved out, I got myself two big-ass TVs! I need to know where this goes in their new space.

NiNi

[laughs] Doing it real big, right?

Ben

Mhmm! Her car real big. Shoes real big. TV real big. Everything real big.

NiNi

We can talk a little bit about the new space. It looks really good. I like the way that it feels like both of them, which is exactly what you want in a place where you’re gonna be moving in together. But can we just talk about how U-Haul lesbian it is of them to get together and immediately start talking about moving in together?

Ginny

Hang on, they started talking about moving in together [Ben laughs] and then got together. That was the order! [NiNi laughs] They were like—

NiNi

That is true, that is fair.

Ginny

—'I’m gonna move.' 

'Oh my God. I can't bear the thought of you leaving, but I understand why you have to.' 

'Well, it's okay ‘cause I was going to ask if you wanted to move in. Also, are we in love with each other?'

Like, that was the conversation. [NiNi laughs]

Ben

'And we finally picked a place to live. Do you wanna make out for the first time?' 

NiNi

[laughs] And the other good part of it is that before any of this, they somehow adopted a child together.

Ben

Right?

Ginny

Yeah! This all tracks. This is all very typical. 

NiNi

Mmhmm. This felt like the correct order of things for lesbians.

00:39:17 - SLTCSLTE: The Food and Nagumo

NiNi

Okay, we need to talk about food.

Ben

Okay.

NiNi

Because Ben started talking about the curry party and I got excited.

Ben

I got hungry, I need to go make food after this. [Ben and Ginny laugh]

NiNi

We didn't even talk yet about the takoyaki party. I am not a huge fan of takoyaki, but that looked really good.

Ben

All right, as we go into the food, let's talk about Nagumo's eating disorder, because I think that this is one of my favorite food plots in a food show in a long time.

NiNi

One of the things about these food shows is that it's about the communal experience of food. Nagumo has a social anxiety disorder where she can't eat in front of other people. The way that this is brought to the surface, and then the way that Kasuga and Nomoto figure out how to include her in the communal experience without trying to force her to eat or making it an anxious space for her where other people are eating… There's something about Kasuga that just reads incredibly reliable from the off. So when Nagumo first meets Kasuga, she very quickly gets very comfortable and feels like she can tell this woman anything. And Kasuga is just so forthright and so understanding about things, that when Nagumo tells her, you know, 'I really can't eat in front of other people,' the first thing she asks her is 'oh, well, can you drink something? Can I make you a cup of tea?' And that sort of becomes a jumping off point for the way that they interact when they're having these communal experiences around food, and the way that Kasuga explains to other people for Nagumo, but without giving too many details of Nagumo's private business. The way that these women make a comfortable space for her to still have the community of meals together without forcing her to eat, drives Nagumo to say, 'I want to go and get myself treated because I want to be able to eat with these women, because I care about them.'

Ben

I really love the arc of that. In a show about two people bonding over food, they met somebody who they couldn't necessarily do that with right away, they had to work into it. And I love the way that they slowly built that out — like the donut party was so satisfying.

NiNi

Donut party was fantastic.

Ben

There’s the donut party. There's the marshmallow party.

NiNi

Don't get me started on Nomoto and her, like, zoning out thinking about Kasuga with these marshmallows. [laughs] It was almost erotic but not in a male gaze erotic kind of way. She's got a comically large number of bags of marshmallows in Nomoto’s mind that she's hugging to her, and then she starts eating the marshmallows with a smile on her face. [laughs] All this is happening in Nomoto’s imagination and I'm just like, 'Yes, girl. Yeah, I understand what is happening to you right now.' [laughs] She's zoning out thinking about Kasuga and these marshmallows and I am cracking up. I'm having a whale of a—Oh, it's so good. 

Okay. I'm gonna get over Kasuga and marshmallows, but [laughs] not immediately. So good, so funny. No notes.

00:43:02 - SLTCSLTE: Depictions of Intimacy

Ben

You had a little bit of hesitation in the middle of the second season. Do you want to talk about that on the show? And do you feel resolved by the way they played it out?

NiNi

Not resolved, but more… comforted, I guess. Part of the agita, I think that I was having, is that I was working through myself. Yako and Nomoto are watching these lesbian films. Yako is introducing Nomoto to these lesbian movies, and they're watching them together. And Nomoto is saying she's watching these movies and all these women are so passionate, and she knows that she likes Kasuga in a romantic way, but she doesn't think that she has these passionate feelings like these women in these films. That's when Yako tells her, 'Well, you know, I'm asexual, this is how I feel about these things.' 

And in the middle of the season when this is happening, I had a bit of a moment where I'm just like, okay, is it that they're doing this purity thing where it's fine to be a lesbian if you don't have sex or sexual feelings? It was something that I was worried about. I think it was a little bit of burden of representation stuff that I was maybe putting on the show? That I felt like it was important to show female sexuality as being good and okay and fine, and not to wrap female sexuality and women loving women up in this thing of it being somehow chaste and pure. That was something that was coming from my own thoughts about it. There's not a lot of ace spectrum rep out there in terms of media and dramas in this field, so intellectually I felt like, oh, well, this is fine. But emotionally, I was having a hard time with. Intellectually, I'm like, okay, yes, if it is that this is an ace lesbian story, this is fine because there's not a lot of representation of that, either. But then I was also, like, feeling that even if it was ace lesbian representation, it was being done in this weird binary where you're either sexual or you're not, when acespec is just a whole spectrum of things. I was getting tied up in my own feelings about a lot of this, and it was giving me a little bit of grief and a little bit of gripe. 

But when we come down through the season and come down towards the end of the season, it starts to feel more like a journey of discovery, of Nomoto figuring out what labels that she would apply to herself that make her feel comfortable with the relationship, and understanding how she feels about Kasuga and in what ways they want to proceed with their relationship and the things that they want to try or not try, and having those conversations with Kasuga, as well. And that eased me in the way that I was feeling about it. I fully admit that I got tied up in my own feelings about this, because it didn't have anything to do with what the show was doing. It works out well. I feel comfortable and comforted by the way that the story goes down through to the end. I'm good with where they've decided to take Nomoto, and Nomoto and Kasuga’s relationship, and where they have hopefully paused, not stopped.

Ginny

I understand that feeling completely. I feel some kind of meta regret that the two lesbian shows we’re talking about, the horny kinky concept one was bad, and the very chaste, ace spectrum one was good. I would love more horny kinky concept lesbians that are also actually well done. But as you said, that's not a problem with this show as it is just sort of with the bigger media landscape, and the show is giving also voice to really important, very representative experiences. 

I love where they land on the question of physical intimacy, because I was wondering what they were going to do having gotten so far into the season. They hardly ever touch each other. There is this sensuality in their relationship around food, and I don't think it functions as a metaphor or a substitute for sex — it's just a different kind and source of pleasure that is important to their relationship, and that's so cool and I love it! But I love where they end up on the question of touch. Kasuga saying, 'yes, I would like to try things out one by one with you.' That's such a lovely way to say, we don't know where this ends. We don't know how we're going to feel about it, but we trust each other enough and we want to explore together at whatever pace feels right for both of us.

Ben

I am less concerned, I think, with certain styles of Japanese shows delving into onscreen depictions of sex and sexuality because of the space those shows fill. Zenra Meshi, What Did You Eat Yesterday?, and this show. The ton of sensuality in the food stuff supports the thinking around sex and intimacy, and I'm really glad they had the hug and kiss scene to make sure that we didn't skip that? But I don't necessarily need to see it in the show, in the sense that I'm okay with just confirming that it's gonna happen, or it is happening. What I do need NHK and TV Tokyo to figure out is: how does the cast of this show meet the cast of What Did You Eat Yesterday? There has to be a way to get these two stories a crossover.

NiNi

It does feel like there needs to be a crossover between these two stories. The new place that they've moved into, I'm pretty sure it's in Shiro and Kenji's building, like it has to be. That's the only thing that makes any sense to me in my head. [laughs]

What you were saying about seeing it on screen, it's not necessarily that I need to see their physical intimacy on screen, or whether there is physical intimacy on screen. I just need to understand, I think, if it was something that they were even gonna talk about or discuss, or if it was something that they wanted or not wanted. I think that it's fine for me for them to have the conversation and say, 'Okay, let's figure this out.' And if that lands upon them not being physically intimate that's fine, if it lands up on them being physically intimate, that's fine, but I think what I was worried about, and maybe I shouldn't have been, was that they were not going to talk about it at all.

Ben

I'm very glad that they had a conversation about it before they moved out, and established that it is something that they want, even if it's something they're gonna have to figure it out.

NiNi

Most definitely, but let's move back to the part where they're moving into Shiro and Kenji's building, because I feel like somehow that has to happen. And I feel like somebody needs to slip Nishijima and Uchino a note that says, 'Hey. Y'all are good at making stuff happen. Make this happen, too. Find a way.'

Ben

It's just difficult because it's an NHK adaptation versus TV Tokyo and I don't know how that plays out because one is a for-profit broadcaster and the other is explicitly a public entity.

NiNi

Figure it out. [Ben and NiNi laugh] I don't care if it's a movie, I don't care if it's a special, I don't care what it is. They need to figure this out, because there's no way that these two shows are not existing in the same universe. They have to.

00:50:53 - SLTCSLTE Ratings and Outro

Ben

I think that's it. This show is excellent. I guess we should rate it. Let's go around. 

Ginny, you're newest to this. What's your rating for this?

Ginny

I gave season one a 9 and season two a 10. Season one felt a little incomplete to me, but season two sewed it up. If I was rating them together, I would give them a 10 as a single experience.

Ben

What about you, NiNi?

NiNi

Why you even asking me? You know my answer. This is a 10.

Ben

It's a 10! 10s across the board. Go watch it right now and then when you're finished, go show it to a friend, and then make them show it to a friend. I'm not even kidding. This is excellent. This is going to have to get a new supercut for me on the show. I’m gonna have to mention this every goddamn recording we do after this. [Ginny and NiNi laugh]

NiNi

It's a good thing Ginny's here because now she goes, she's like, okay, so I'm looking for What Did You Eat Yesterday? and then She Loves to Cook, She Loves to Eat.

Ginny

Making notes.

Ben

It was really just so lovely. One of the things I really enjoy in my queer stories is realistic and believable-feeling friend groups around them. It's really important for me, not just that I believe in the integrity of the couple, but also the integrity of their network. And I really like when queer friend groups grow as a result of two other people finding something in each other, that was really important for me. And it's why this particular show is so special to me. I really love this show, so much. Please go watch it.

NiNi

And with that, that's all she wrote. That is going to wrap us up, say bye to the people. 

Say bye Ginny!

Ginny

Bye!

NiNi

Say bye to the people, Ben.

Ben

Peace.

#chaser game w #she loves to cook and she loves to eat #tsukuritai onna to tabetai onna #japanese gl #gl series #ben and nini's conversations #the conversation #lgbtq #podcast #spring series #spring 2024