#you could argue that jc was willing to sacrifice not just his life but the future of YMJ. which is so much more than a core | Explore Tumblr Posts and Blogs

fubuwu · 10 months

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Fuck it. I'm gonna bite the bait just to say that there were many instances where jc clearly trated wwx like a brother/friend in the BOOK, aka the canon text in case anyone was confused or have seemed to have selectively forgotten about.

From the part where jc scoffs at the prospect of wwx getting together with a servant. Laughing and proclaiming that he was treated better than he was (in reference to his own sister peeling his lotus seeds for him which she didn't do for jc).

Then there was him standing up for him on NUMEROUS occasions throughout the book. Such as before the LP Massacre. He could have let his mother beat wwx senseless, but he tried to stop her from doing so, begging and crying even for her to stop and take the punishment for him. Despite the risk it took to do so.

Not to mention the excuses he made to the rest of the cw after the war when he stood up for wwx and shrugged off his casual and overly familiar demeanour.

Then ofc there was the sacrifice he made for wwx (which he didn't have to do as the only male sect heir) whilst they were on the run from the Wens that ultimately led up to the events in the novel..

The Cloud Recesses era.. the part after jfm gave away his dogs and jc steadily welcomed wwx in his life, willing to scare away any dogs that threatened him..

These are all things a nasty, homophobic rich man would NEVER do for his servant if he only saw them as such.

If he was classist as you all seem to think he is, then he would never dream of doing all the above CANON EVENTS for wwx's sake. Js.

These were all in the book. To ignore them, that means you are ignoring mxtx's work and you clearly did not understand the complicated relationship wwx and jc had.

Because it was made clear throughout the text that jc never saw him as a servant. They shared a room, went to school together and made HUGE sacrifices for eachother. So much so, that their relationship pissed of jc's mother.

If you ignore that then you are ignoring a VERY IMPORTANT part of the text. And I have to wonder if y'all only came into the fandom for the mlm relationship between wwx and lwj and not the the story. Clearly, y'all are selectively ignoring some very IMPORTANT facts. Js. This book is MORE than just a bl........

And if that's the case, then you have no place arguing jc canon facts. Js.

#canon jiang cheng #jiang cheng #mxtx mdzs #mo dao zu shi #This tired argument.....#Why do antis willfully ignore the most important part of the text????#The part that leads up to the canon events??#And inevitably the story????#Are they threatened because lwj isn't a main part of it???#It's not our fault or problem that lwj hardly had as big of an influence to the main plot as jc did #Shrugs #Fyi I'm not ignoring the mlm aspect of the book #This was some groundbreaking work for the gay community with compelling characters that broke these stereotypes #But by boiling down the book to just the mlm aspect and focusing only on the mlm relationship is doing this work a disservice #Especially when there is so much more to this book than just romance #I feel like people only focus on that aspect of the book #And that's a bit boring imo. It is perfectly okay for you explore to other aspects of the book. It won't make you hate wngxian any less.#You can appreciate the interesting mlm relationship mxtx created whilst enjoying the non romantic aspect of the story #The other characters included #It is not that hard #Js.

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crossdressingdeath · 3 years

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Seeing your post about how JYL has a 'ranking system' in her head when it comes to WWX and JC hits so hard, but honestly, the more I read into the Jiang family dynamics, the more I agree. JYL obviously loves WWX, but I don't know if she's capable of putting him above JC. And we see her defending him, and she obviously gives her life for him, but she was also reacting in the moment. Not to speak lightly of her sacrifice of course, but I just feel like there are certain limits to how 1/7

far she's actually willing to go for him. I was initially one of JYL's staunch defenders, and always said that, unlike JC, she didn't have the same amount of political power as him, wasn't in a position to do anything about the Wens, ect. But...I'm starting to question if that's really true. JYL may not have had much direct political power herself, but she was the sister of a sect leader, and even if JC was unwilling to help, JYL had just married into the richest and most powerful sect 2/7

at the time. It was a love marriage, JZX adored her and would've done anything for her if she'd just bothered to ask him for it. Madam Jin also cared for her and respected her, and between her and JZX, had JYL actually bothered to tell them anything, I'm sure they would have been able to sort something out. Or she could have had it as a condition of her marriage - I'm not marrying into the sect that's trying to kill my brother unless you tell your father to stop. Had it been reversed and 3/7

The Lans were calling for JYL and JC’s deaths, no way in hell WWX would’ve just married into the sect, regardless of LWJ’s involvement. Instead she just doesn’t really do anything. We see no proof that she ever tried to see WWX after the wedding dress incident, which — god I instantly saw it as a sweet gesture, but now it just bothers me, because your brother is living in squalor, and you decide to show if the expensive dress that you’ll be 4/7

wearing when marrying into the sect that's trying to kill him, you bring along one bowl of soup for him, and don't even try to explain WHY you're marrying into said sect. Beyond that, we don't see a single moment up until her death where JYL actually seems concerned about WWX, puts in effort to try to see him - she doesn't even ask him how he's doing the one time she does come to see him. When we compare that to how WQ treats WN, yeah, she's outwardly not as loving or sweet, but she 5/7

goes to the ends of the earth for her brother, even going as far as to betray her sect and risk WRH's wrath because he asks her to. And now we come back to that ranking system you mentioned before - yeah, it really does seem like JYL places her blood family first, which definitely hurts, but in comparison, despite only knowing him for a shorter amount of time, WQ truly grows to think of WWX as a second brother. And she treats him as such, at an equal level with WN - after JZX dies 6/7

WQ doesn't attack WWX for what happened. She doesn't try to come up with a way to sacrifice WWX instead and let WN survive in his stead. She and WN, two people who have become WWX's family, both give their lives to protect both him and the rest of their remaining family members. And it's just frustrating to think that the one member of WWX's adopted family who we all thought treated him like an actual brother, might not have really been on his side after all. 7/7

Yes! To start with the wedding dress thing, because it drives me nuts when people treat that like some super sweet act of love: JYL shows up in the Burial Mounds with no money, no sign of having tried to talk the sects around, no news outside of her own, no food beyond a couple bowls of soup (one of which she gives to the guy who can’t eat), and doesn’t so much as ask WWX if he’s okay. She literally came all that way to have a family meal, ask WWX to name the future nephew it’s becoming increasingly clear he’ll never meet, and tell him about her impending marriage into the family that’s currently doing everything in its power to destroy WWX’s life. Like, if you think about it that entire visit is such a slap in the face; “Here’s a bowl of soup while the people under your protection are starving, oh by the way I’m going to marry the son of the guy actively trying to get you killed, okay bye”. All you can say in regards to her helping WWX is that she does potentially manage to persuade JZX to invite him to JL’s one month celebration, but if memory serves the novel never actually specifies whose idea that was and it was JZX who decided to go get WWX after JGY told him about seeing JZXun heading in the direction of the Burial Mounds. And even then JZX does the same thing JYL does; sees WWX outnumbered and surrounded and tells him to stand down. At least in JZX’s case you could argue that the actual fighting hadn’t broken out and JZX probably trusted in his authority to be able to sort the situation out so long as WWX wasn’t actually acting aggressive (or defensive, rather), and he’s also physically strong enough that he may well have been able to intervene if the cultivators had attacked. JYL, when she does the same thing, has no authority and no physical power to defend WWX with. And yeah, both JZX and Madam Jin adore JYL, and neither of them seem super fond of JGS (JZX respects his father, but I don’t get the sense he loves him); if JYL had asked them for help it’s entirely possible they would’ve started at least circulating her version of events and demanding a proper investigation into what happened. But there’s no mention of her so much as trying, and she doesn’t offer to ask them when she visits WWX.

And yeah, compare WQ to JYL and it’s... well. WQ is so quick to offer WWX her love and care? She’s harsh, but she loves him and views him and WN on such equal footing that she and WN willingly hand themselves over to the Jins for WWX’s sake without her so much as bringing up the possibility of saving WN instead. There’s no ranking for WQ; WWX and WN are her brothers, and she loves them, and she’d do anything to protect them. When it becomes clear she can’t save WN (like hell the sects would let him live, and by this point it’s pretty clear that WWX won’t be able to protect them forever) she throws her whole weight behind defending the brother she thinks she might still be able to save, even if it means bringing WN with her to die. WQ knows WWX for... a year or two? Maybe? The timeline is a little hazy. Not long compared to JYL, anyway. And yet she’s willing to walk all the way to Lanling to die in the hope of saving him. It’s for her whole family, yes, but she makes a point of including him. Basically, I think this fandom needs more stuff wherein the Jiangs and Wens survive and the Wens are fully like “Our brother now, you don’t deserve him”.

The thing with JYL is... she loves WWX, she genuinely does, but he is never going to be first for her. To the point where she outright enables JC’s abuse, in places; she always expects WWX to be the one to grin and bear it. Hell, one of their first conversations involves JYL cheerily allowing WWX to cover up JC locking him out of his bedroom and scaring him out into the woods by threatening to set dogs on him! Let me rephrase that: she allows a traumatized nine-year-old to hide the fact that the kid her dad expects him to share a room with locked him out of said room on his FIRST NIGHT and threatened him with his LITERALLY WORST FEAR, and as far as we know makes no attempt to tell JFM herself. To keep JC out of trouble. That is such a thing! WWX was scared to the point of running away and JFM expects him to share a room with the person responsible for that and JYL goes along with him promising not to tell JFM so that JC won’t get in trouble! And from that day forwards everything is just “Boys will be boys” to her. Like, let me put it this way. Before LWJ (and arguably the Wens before that, although WWX saw himself more as protector than protected there) JYL was the person WWX trusted to protect and care for and comfort him above all others, yeah? She’s the one he thinks of as having his back? He doesn’t tell her about JC trying to kill him. JC tries to kill WWX three times before JYL’s death, and WWX doesn’t say a word to her about any of them. You could argue that he doesn’t want to involve her, but... JYL pretty clearly takes JC’s side every time JC starts having a go at WWX. When he chases him out of their room, when he starts snapping about how annoying WWX is, when he stabs WWX... She never outright says it, but there really does come a point where by staying neutral you’re siding with the aggressor, and she reaches that point a lot. Hell, the stabbing is one of those aforementioned near-murders! JC stabbed him! According to WWX (who downplays serious injuries, he never exaggerates them) he had to hold his guts in! WWX is talking about a pretty fucking serious injury (and JYL grew up in a cultivation sect, I don’t believe for a second she doesn’t at least know what constitutes a serious injury) while JC whines about a broken arm like it’s worse than having to physically hold your guts in until you can reach a doctor and JYL acts like those are equal! JC could easily have killed WWX and has enough training with the sword to know better than to go for a blow like that in a staged fight and JYL doesn’t even suggest he should apologise.

Honestly? The more I think about JYL the more it pisses me off that she’s treated like WWX’s best sister more than WQ is. Imagine WQ seeing one brother stab the other in the gut and take the former’s side because the latter broke the former’s arm. Imagine WQ so much as considering allowing a child to cover up the kid he’s supposed to share a room with locking him out and scaring him into running away. She wouldn’t! Because WQ sees her brothers as equals. She won’t pick WN over WWX just because they’re blood siblings; she loves them both, and will choose based on who she thinks is in the right. And she wouldn’t just stay neutral to avoid rocking the boat, oh no. If WQ heard WWX say that WN stabbed him and did enough damage that he had to hold his guts in... oh boy would WN have a bad day. The thing with JYL is that she seems like a good sister in comparison to the rest of the Jiangs; stick canon JYL into a family that genuinely loves WWX and sees him as equal to their other children, and she would not look anywhere near as good.

#mdzs #lotus sister #i still love jyl but... well #she's not actually a good sister to wwx despite being the only jiang to claim him as family #she looks good in comparison to the rest of the jiangs #but i'd pick wq over her any day #anon #asks

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fixielixie · 3 years

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Wei Wuxian is selfish, actually~ is the deeper meaning of mdzs? I can't believe I had to read this with my own two eyeballs. Exactly how low is the reading comprehension on this site lmfao. Was his decision to give his golden core to Jiang Cheng without telling him Not A Great Idea™? Yes I think so. Objectively giving your "organ" to someone and not telling them is fucked up. But was it selfish? Exactly how? It was arguably the result of his upbringing and him feeling indebted to the Jiangs. He said it himself if I remember correctly that without the Jiangs he wouldn't have a gc anyway so he owes it to them. Which feels like unhealthy attitude to have towards oneself but like the exact opposite of selfishness. If we tried to stretch this to max, one could argue that wei wwx keeping the transfer itself a secret was selfish because he didn't want Jiang Cheng mad at him. But Jiang Cheng was mad at him anyway and if that theory was true, if Wuxian did give up his core for selfish reasons and because he's somehow selfish then this would be the first thing he'd throw into Jiang Cheng's face the second he needs to guilt trip him. You know? Like Jing Huangyao did to Xichen with "Didn't I take care of you?" in the Guanyin temple. sorry for the rant

tbh i think the person who bore the worst of the bad decision of the golden core transfer was wwx himself. its one of the main factors that lead to his downfall and then his death. jc wouldnt have been able to be the sect leader, but it would have been his family pride and his own that would have been hurt in this situation. im sure given time he would have been able to make something out of himself, plus at this stage he was already out of immediate danger, so he wouldn't have been able to fight in the war, but he could have stayed alive but sticking to his sisters side.

wwx tho, through giving up his golden core, was immediately beaten and thrown off a cliff where he had to survive in corpse hell for three months, inventing a heretic path that made him unbelievably powerful but also an enemy because of said unknown power, and then died.

like clearly giving up his core here was the worse option here for everyone but jiang cheng. but like you said, this version of wwx would always give up his golden core for jiang cheng, because he thought it was what was owed to him, that he didnt have any right to a core if jc didnt because without the jiangs he wouldnt have had a chance to cultivate one in the first place. and again like you said, this is a really unhealthy way to look at it, because ultimately the golden core was his and no one elses, he cultivated it using his own talent and merits and how powerful he was really had nothing to do with the jiangs. its the same thought process he had about yzy cuttin off his hand, than he would gladly lose a hand for the sect, because that was what is expected of him. to give up every little bit of himself for the jiang sect, whether or not they ever repaid back that loyalty to him like... at all. he was expected to blindly follow along whether they treated him well or not.

and youre right, if we stretch it you could argue that wwx didnt tell jc about it because he didnt want to have to deal with him getting angry at him. but also, i think the main reason he didnt tell him is because he knew what sort of mentality jc had, and that jc wouldnt see this as a sacrifice wwx was willing to make for the jiang sect, but rather wwx trying to one up him once again. tbh wwx doesnt even view this as a noble sacrifice on his part, he did it because he believed it to be his duty, and i dont really blame him for not wanting to deal with jcs bullshit over it when he could just pop his core into him and they can all go about his life (but heres where wwxs actual flaw is, believe that everyone can let things go as easily as he can. which is clearly not the case, and it leads him into situations such as this one).

and thats also a good point, if he did it for selfish reasons, what was stopping him after he came back to life and jc was trying to capture him, from rubbing it in his face?? trying to make jiang cheng suffer for spending a decade obsessed with finding him and using his own core to whip demonic cultivators in effort to prove it was wwx. why wouldnt he use this to his advantage to try and escape the blame that jc constantly puts on him. because he didnt do it to hold over jiang cheng or to help himself sleep at night, he gave up his core because thats what he believed he should've done as a head disciple/to pay back his debt, thats about as deep as it was for him.

also never apologise for ranting, look at what i post and im sending you back! if anyone should apologise its me D:

#ask #if anyones annoyed by such long posts on their dashes btw just send an ask #and tell me to use the readmore function #so i can stop cloggin up ur dashes

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hamliet · 4 years

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Hey there! I’d like to ask something, if you’re ok with that. In mdzs, a lot of people say that despite JC being so antagonistic towards WWX, he still loves him and misses him. I don’t see how, his actions in any version of the story say the exact opposite to me. Maybe one needs to look between the lines to see it, but I’m horrible at reading others, so if I may bother you and ask what your thoughts are on the subject?

Hey! You are always welcome to ask me questions about MDZS. Especially while we’re all trapped inside.

So I will say I do think Jiang Cheng does indeed love and miss Wei Wuxian. I also think the fandom has a tendency to wipe away Jiang Cheng’s extremely serious flaws (especially in comparison to, say, how they treat Jin Guangyao’s flaws in comparison). Jiang Cheng is very much a foil for Jin Guangyao and for Madame Yu, Wei Wuxian, and Jin Ling (as well as Su She, but that’s perhaps for another meta).

Jiang Cheng’s fundamental defense mechanism is projection. We know already that he is insecure–the way his father treated him is horrible. Madame Yu, in turn, was very clearly projecting her own insecurities onto her son:

Jiang Cheng was stuck between his father and his mother. After a moment of hesitation, he moved to his mother’s side. Holding his shoulders, Madam Yu pushed him forward for Jiang FengMian to see, “Sect Leader Jiang, it seems that some things I have to say. Look carefully—this, is your own son, the future head of Lotus Pier. Even if you frown upon him just because I was the one who bore him, his surname is still Jiang! … I don’t believe for one second that you haven’t heard of how the outside people gossips, that Sect Leader Jiang has still not moved on from a certain Sanren though so many years have passed, regarding the son of his old friend as a son of his own; they’re speculating if Wei Ying is your…”

She’s really asking: I’m here, so why don’t you care about me? Do you really prefer a dead Cangse Sanren to me? But the tragic irony is that the way in which she asks this question only pushes Jiang Fengmian away. And yet, she did love him, which Jiang Fengmian realizes when, in the end, he finds out Madame Yu had taught Zidian to obey his command as well as hers. Zidian is a symbol of her pride and heritage.

Let’s also look at MXTX’s description of Jiang Cheng’s ideal woman. While it’s not in the novel and is extra material, it’s a perfect example of projection:

naturally beautiful, graceful and obedient, hard-working and thrifty, coming from a respected family, cultivation level not too high, personality not too strong, not too talkative, voice not too loud and must treat Jin Ling nicely.

Is he looking for a wife, or is he looking for Shijie to mother Jin Ling? Because he’s 100% describing Jiang Yanli.

Jiang Cheng does exactly what his mother did to him to Wei Wuxian. He projects his own insecurities, the very ones Madame Yu identified (great job mothering there), onto Wei Wuxian. Why does he hate Wei Wuxian? He hates Wei Wuxian for killing Shijie, when it was Shijie’s own choice to sacrifice herself, and Jiang Cheng then rendered her last sacrifice moot by killing his shixiong. So does Jiang Cheng hate Wei Wuxian, or does he hate himself for killing his sibling in a moment of rage?

It goes deeper, though. Because we see that Jiang Cheng’s fundamental issue is that he hates himself, because he is not as good at cultivation nor as strong as Wei Wuxian, and his father doesn’t love him as much as he loves Wei Wuxian. A child’s mind is going to connect that to “if I’m stronger, Dad will love me.” Jiang Cheng never grew out of this mindset. But what is strength to Jiang Cheng?

It’s protecting the people he loves. So Shijie’s death? He blames himself. One of Jiang Cheng’s most vulnerable moments is when he begs Wei Wuxian to turn away from Yiling and the Wens, because “I can’t protect you.” He wants to protect Wei Wuxian because he couldn’t protect his parents, yet he wants to protect himself more. It’s tragic. What Jin Guangyao said to Jiang Cheng in the temple is true, though of course, it’s not so simple as to be Jiang Cheng’s fault solely. But his insecurities did play a role and were indeed exploited by a cruel, calculating society:

“… Back then, the LanlingJin Sect, the QingheNie Sect, and the GusuLan Sect had already finished fighting over the biggest share. The rest could only get some small shrimps. You, on the other hand, had just rebuilt Lotus Pier and behind you was the YiLing Patriarch, Wei WuXian, the danger of whom was immeasurable. Do you think the other sects would like to see a young sect leader who was so advantaged? Luckily, you didn’t seem to be on good terms with your shixiong, and since everyone thought there was an opportunity, of course they’d add fuels to your fire if they could. No matter what, to weaken the YunmengJiang Sect was to strengthen themselves. Sect Leader Jiang, if only your attitude towards your shixiong was just a bit better, showing everyone that your bond was too strong to be broken for them to have a chance, or if you exhibited just a bit more tolerance after what happened, things wouldn’t have become what they were. Oh, speaking of it, you were also a main force of the siege at Burial Mound…”

Jin Guangyao isn’t wrong here, and unlike Jiang Cheng, he’s aware that society sucks but tries to join it anyways. Jiang Cheng grew up privileged despite his sad home life, and therefore never examined whether society was fair or not (as is reinforced by the early conversation Jiang Cheng and Wei Wuxian have about Jin Guangyao, in which Wei Wuxian expresses that he likes Jin Guangyao and Jiang Cheng says that, as the son of a whore, Jin Guangyao will only be able to climb so far, yet expresses no deeper concern about this). Jin Guangyao’s tragedy was trying to join society in an effort to prove himself to his father, and Jiang Cheng’s tragedy was not examining himself and his role in society in an effort to prove himself to his father as well, both fathers of whom would be better off ignored. Jiang Cheng did rebuild Lotus Pier, but Wei Wuxian learns that the local people are terrified of Jiang Cheng and hate him, while Jin Guangyao actually did protect the common people, yet Jiang Cheng still has a chance to redeem himself in the end and Jin Guangyao does not, which can be chalked up in great part due to privilege.

This isn’t to argue Jiang Cheng is worse than Jin Guangyao, because better/worse is moot in the world of MDZS. The point is that both Jiang Cheng and Jin Guangyao bring about the death of a brother by prioritizing their own wellbeing and proving themselves to the fathers whose approval it is impossible to win (because the problem is with them rather than with Jiang Cheng or Jin Guangyao themselves), would have/did kill a child on the basis of their parentage (Wen Yuan was rescued by Lan Wangji or he would absolutely have been killed, Jin Guangyao does kill A-Song–it doesn’t matter whether or not either of them did/would have done it personally; at the very least they set in motion events they knew would result in a child’s death), and yet both raised and genuinely loved Jin Ling (as Jin Ling himself concludes in the end).

But in regards to Jin Ling, Jiang Cheng’s insecurities make it impossible for him to communicate well with the people he loves. He warns Jin Ling not to come back unless he accomplishes something on Dafan Mountain, which almost gets Jin Ling killed trying to prove himself. (I wrote more about that in this meta here.)

After Wei Wuxian’s resurrection, Jiang Cheng proves that he doesn’t hate Wei Wuxian several times despite claiming he does. Firstly? When Jin Guangyao accuses Mo Xuanyu of being Wei Wuxian in the middle of a crowd, Jiang Cheng could easily turn him in and be rid of him since Jiang Cheng already knows it. And yet, Jiang Cheng does not do so, even when called upon; instead, his indecision is noted. Secondly, he kept Chenqing with him all these years, when he very easily could have destroyed it (which is another parallel to Jin Guangyao, who kept Suibian, an ultimately useless sword); the flute, on the other hand, is a symbol of demonic cultivation and yet Jiang Cheng does not get rid of it. He went so far as to torture other demonic cultivators to death, many of whom are noted to have been innocent, and yet he kept demonic cultivational tools with him, because it was his brother’s–which also, yes, shows how he hates himself and kind of wants to punish himself, too.

And, of course, there’s the sacrifice that Jiang Cheng never reveals (at least not by the novel’s end). He sacrificed his own life to save Wei Wuxian from the Wens, was willing to give up what he always wanted–to lead Lotus Pier and thereby earn his father’s respect–to save Wei Wuxian’s life. Yet, in the end that led to Wei Wuxian sacrificing his golden core for Jiang Cheng, and in the end, Jiang Cheng can’t tell Wei Wuxian for the same reason Wei Wuxian couldn’t tell Jiang Cheng in his first life: it would sound like an excuse. So, again, Jiang Cheng’s pride is getting in the way–yet, at least this time, he is willing to sacrifice looking good and look worse for the sake of letting Wei Wuxian go.

However, I think there’s reason to hope, as I’ve said before. I did not interpret that ending to mean their relationship was over or could never be significantly close again. Wei Wuxian has let go of a lot of his pride and learned some hard lessons about self-sacrifice and protecting people, and the younger generation is making so much room for nuance and kindness and thereby challenging society. I personally assumed they’d have that conversation eventually, but we didn’t need to see it to assume it would happen.

#ask hamliet #jiang cheng #mdzs #mdzs meta #mxtx #mxtx meta #wei wuxian #jin guangyao #jin ling #su she #madame yu #yu ziyuan

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satonthelotuspier · 4 years

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Jiang Cheng

The Boy Who Couldn’t Please Everyone - or - The Boy Who Was Failed by Everyone.

So, the absolute core of Jiang Cheng’s existence is his family; there’s not much arguing that he and Jiang Yanli are the same in that respect.

And the theme of his life is being pulled in myriad directions by myriad people for their own ends. No one ever just let Jiang Cheng be Jiang Cheng, until maturity made him his own man, and by that point he was a bitter, twisted version of himself who had gone through too much.

From the moment Wei Wuxian came into their lives Lotus Pier was shaped to accommodate him. We all know Jiang Cheng loved his dogs, but Wei Wuxian was scared of them, so they had to go, I don’t need to explain to pet owners/animal people how heartbreaking this would have been, especially to a small child, he had to share his bedroom, his private safe space, and his father showered Wei Wuxian with the affection and attention and regard that he never ever seemed to give to Jiang Cheng, his own son.

I’m not for even a second saying that Jiang Fengmian shouldn’t show affection for Wei Wuxian, it’s entirely possible to love someone not of your own blood as you do your own child, but if you don’t give the same attention and regard to your own child just because of the woman whose womb bore him, (if we believe what Yu Ziyuan accuses him of), then you’re a pretty shitty parent. Perhaps we should take what an estranged wife says with a pinch of salt, but in the end Jiang Cheng still felt like his own father didn’t love him as much as Wei Wuxian, which means he was a failure as a parent.

Jiang Cheng is unarguably emotionally insecure, probably as a direct result of his parent’s marriage and their attutides to him.

Basically Wei Wuxian’s arrival was the start of a lifetime cycle of loss, always linked back to Wei Wuxian, starting with his pets and his own father.

And despite this Jiang Cheng undoubtedly loved this usurper like a brother. They grew up together and to all intents and purposes Wei Wuxian was his brother, just not by blood, and therefore under his protection. “If there are any dogs, I’ll chase them away for you” - even though he had to give his own dogs away because of this cuckoo in the nest he was still willing to protect him with everything he had.

He grew up in a tight knit sibling trio, but he also grew up being the bone of contention between his parents; YZY would accuse JFM of being more of a father to the child of his friends than his own son, to the point that people questioned whether WWX was JFM’s, and she said this time and time again in front of her own son. Way to screw him up, parents.

He was basically a weapon she used against her husband, who, instead of dealing with her and protecting his son from being so used, virtually ignored her and let her continue, only ever coming to WWX’s defence and never questioning what damage was being caused to JC.

So YZY constantly filled Jiang Cheng’s mind with poison and tried to turn him against Wei Wuxian, a boy he loved like his own brother; he was a trouble causer, he would hurt the sect, he would hurt JC’s future and he had to listen to his mother tear WWX to pieces, watch her bully WWX, and whenever he tried to defend him JC was shouted down and hey, you have to listen to your mother, be a filial son and shut up.

Is there any wonder this kid didn’t know which way his head was screwed on when he was piggy in the middle of this hate triangle? He was literally pulled three ways in his own family before he even got out into the wider world.

Lets go to Cloud Recesses. JC was boring, being the voice of reason, trying to spoil WWX’s fun with his constant talk of the rules and not upsetting the Lans.

Well of course, as the Jiang heir he had to be. He understood he was under a weight of expectation and had to be seen to behave in a certain way; he was representing his sect and any shenanigans reflect badly on Yunmeng Jiang. WWX had much more freedom to cause hijinks as the head disciple, not a Jiang by blood, and lets face it JFM would only ever apologise, not scold, no matter what he got up to. If we examine what WWX said, something along the lines of “You’ve already buried my corpse so many times, whats once more?” we see while JC might have occasionally gotten dragged into WWX’s schemes he was also the one to have to apologise for him, to mop up after him. He’s the younger brother and he always had to be the adult on behalf of them both because thats just WWX, what a little scamp eh? WWX just does what WWX wants. If only JC had that freedom.

He loves WWX like a brother, but there’s no wonder he’s so jealous of the other, being better without trying, automatically handed all the things JC should have gotten too, it would be fair to think there would be a small part of JC that hated WWX’s guts, even in their teens.

We all know how the story progresses, and the loss the trio suffers, the culling of the Jiang sect, JYL’s tragic death, but lets discuss one of the hidden things WWX could be considered to have stolen from him.

His sacrifice.

Lets be under no illusions, Jiang Cheng was fully aware what he did when he drew the Wen guards away from WWX in Yiling; he was sacrificing his own life to protect his brother, a brother who had already taken so much from him; but he still loved to the point of being willing to die for him. He expected nothing but death but Wei Wuxian ruined it all and even one-upped him by rescuing him half-dead and sacrificing his golden core. He hadn’t even been allowed to outshine his brother in his greatest moment of self-sacrifice.

If WWX had told the truth at that point, shared what had happened with his golden core JC would have been hurt, but likely he would have gotten over it; and you have to wonder would the other sects have been able to drive a wedge between them if he’d had the full facts of how indebted he was to WWX, and WQ.

Instead he didn’t understand, JC was still being pulled all ways by all people for their own purposes, the sect leaders were whispering in his ear about WWX and the Wens, playing on his grief and his hatred.

Lets not forget he wasn’t much more than a child at this point who’d never had to stand on his own, used to trying to keep the peace between his parents, surrounded by men manipulating him for their own ends. He was the young sect leader of a regenerating sect, and big shots like Jin Guangshan were tutting and theorising what foul deeds the Yiling Patriarch was up to at the Burial Mounds, backed up by the baying mob, and no one saw JGS’s secret agenda for what it was, and they put this young man, who had no support whatsoever, under so much pressure to ditch his shixiong was there any surprise he caved in in the end? He was a grieving, lonely kid who had always been part of a trio or a duo, and he was on his own.

He absolutely should have stood by WWX, we all agree with that, but conversely WWX never stood by JC, his account was settled with the golden core; he didn’t need to stay and help him rebuild Yunmeng Jiang like he promised because, pat on the back, he’d already given JC so much, job done, account settled. WWX is about the big gestures, gotta save the world, the little things don’t matter, like promises and family. It was even WWX’s selfishness, not wanting to have to deal with JC knowing, that kept the information of his golden core from him.

So yes, JC spent most of his life trying to please everyone, meet everyones expectations of him, from his parents and his brother, to the other sect leaders, basically to be used by most every one of them.

And he was equally failed by everyone. His parents, instead of nuturing him, used him to hurt each other, WWX took and took from him until there was nothing left, lied to him and kept him in the dark about something so hugely important because he couldn’t be bothered to deal with JC knowing, even his sister deserted him; and the sect leaders who should have supported him and been the voices of reason, who could have mentored him, like Lan Xichen and Nie Mingjue, seem to have disconnected their righteous brains for this entire period of the story.

Thank goodness for Jin Ling, or else JC would have ended up with nothing.

#mdzs #mdzs meta #character study #jiang cheng #mdzs thoughts #long post #the grandmaster of demonic cultivation #mo dao zhu shi #the untamed #character analysis

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crossdressingdeath · 4 years

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(1/3) It always amuses me how stans try to justify JC actions by his abusive upbringing while there were 3 children in that family and both others turned very kind and/or very moral and not at all like JC (and frankly, he didn't even have the hardest position in the dysfunctional dynamic). Or LXC and LWJ whose upbringing was even more screwed up with a LQ who was certainly playing favorites and wanting perfection, and yet this never draw a wedge between them or created any jealousy.

(2/3)LXC loves for LWJ to excel! Same with "but JC had it so hard rebuilding Lotus Pier, WWX was goofing off with the Wens"...JC was paying people to do that for him, yes, while WWX was trying to start from scratch a settlement over a mountain of corpses with a bunch of weak or old people and not to die of hunger comes winter. While separated from all his friends and hated as a monster by the cultivation world. "But JC was so lonely during the 13/16y, so that justifies him lashing out" And WWX

(3/3) was dead, killed by his brother and thinking that there was not a person left on his side in the end, and yet, that didn't make him act like a dick? Or athg else really, because everything that JC went through in the past, WWX did also, but in a worse way because he lost his parents young, lived in the streets, didn't have JC societal privilege or money and has to harness an unstable necromancy practice on top of that. And yet no one uses it as arguments to explain his actions, only for JC

Honestly? While none of the Jiang kids were in a good position, out of the three of them... JC did have it the easiest. It was still awful for him, don’t get me wrong, I’m not suggesting his childhood didn’t suck, but given it was made very clear to JYL that her only purpose was to be married off to JZX so her mother could tie her bloodline to her best friend’s and WWX was treated like a servant at best... Yeah. If I had to pick, I’d choose having a distant father and dealing with a mother who’s constantly emotionally abusive over having a distant father and dealing with a mother who’s constantly emotionally abusive and being treated like a bargaining chip/treated like a servant and/or bastard and being whipped for actions that would get the rest of the clan a lecture at worst. Again, I’m not saying JC didn’t have it bad, but his siblings having it worse is... interesting, given neither of them decided to be dicks to Literally Everyone over it.

I do have to say, even though this is about JC, there’s nothing suggesting LQR was playing favourites with LXC and LWJ. He was strict, yes, probably stricter than he should’ve been, and LXC probably did get more one-on-one interaction with him, but given LXC was going to be sect leader/became sect leader at a young age that makes sense. This is not super important to the point of this post, but I do find it odd how often people make LQR out to be this horrible person who’s always awful to his nephews because he’s Strict when we... don’t actually know anything about how he raised them. I don’t like him all that much, and he probably didn’t do a fantastic job of raising them, but the man did try, and he clearly wants his nephews to be safe and happy (even though he has inaccurate views of what that entails...), and given how the parents/parental figures of the cast generally act he deserves some credit for that. Also the Twin Jades ended up considerably better-adjusted than most of their age group, which... isn’t saying much all things considered but it does say something. If nothing else neither of them seem to feel actively unsafe around him, so he’s definitely not the worst parental figure in this novel.

...I had a surprising number of thoughts on LQR there. Whoops, sorry about the tangent. Maybe I’ll make a post about him at some point. Anyway, yeah, LXC and LWJ clearly adore each other! LXC would be delighted if LWJ surpassed him at something! Same with Nie bros; they argue a lot, but there’s no denying that they love each other. That’s what insults and threats out of love look like; NMJ threatens NHS all the time, but NHS clearly isn’t all that bothered by it until JGY starts fucking with NMJ’s mind and the threats become more serious, which really isn’t NMJ’s fault. It’s because in the other sibling relationships both parties are invested in staying close. They love each other and want to be close for the rest of their lives! Meanwhile JC is obsessed with WWX outperforming him at Literally Everything, and WWX genuinely believes that JC is allowed to treat him the way he does and it’s fine and healthy.

And yeah, JC wasn’t exactly rebuilding Lotus Pier all by his lonesome with his own two hands. In fact, going by what we see all the rebuilding was done well before WWX left! And I don’t doubt for a second that WWX was involved in that process; I have very mixed feelings about the scene in CQL where he blows off his duties to go and get drunk, because on the one hand it does do a good job of showing just how bad his mental state is getting (and how JC refuses to acknowledge it despite WWX obviously being Not Okay), but on the other hand... I just can’t see WWX not throwing himself into helping JC with everything he’s got even while his mental state is coming crashing down around him. I mean, this is the guy who created an incredibly powerful weapon that even he couldn’t fully control, not knowing what using it would do to him, to help his brother win a war. I’m pretty much certain that WWX ran himself into the ground helping JC rebuild and run the sect... then when he found himself in charge of a small group of desperate people, scrambling to keep them fed and clothed and healthy, JC just abandoned him to deal with it on his own.

And the whole “Oh, but JC was so lonely, don’t you feel bad for him?” shtick. I hate it so much. If he didn’t want to be lonely, he should’ve considered that before alienating everyone in his age group and leading an army to murder his brother, the only person left who was willing to put up with him! It’s... really hard to feel bad for someone who’s brought most of their suffering on themselves through a series of generally shitty and frequently downright cruel actions with easily foreseeable consequences. If he got sick of being alone, he should’ve apologized to his peers for being a dick to... literally all of them and tried to make amends and strike up some sort of relationship. Or, if that didn’t work, go out! Meet new people! Try not to be as awful to them! Also, he’s a sect leader. If he couldn’t even maintain a positive relationship with other sect leaders, people who, let me remind you, he has to work with on a regular basis and several of whom are actually nice and friendly people, that is on him. If you are awful to people you will end up alone. And then JC decided to respond to learning that the people he was a dick to every time he saw them (and, in LWJ and NHS’s cases, caused the death of someone they cared about) wanted nothing to do with him... by whining about how lonely he was as if that wasn’t largely his fault. Like, he lost his family and that’s awful, but he could have had friends to help him through his grief, and it’s his own damn fault that he doesn’t.

WWX’s life was miserable. He had plenty of friends, yeah, but he spent years on the streets after his parents died brutal deaths; was raised in a family where he was treated like a servant and a scapegoat; lost everything in an event he was blamed for despite having nothing to do with the attack; had to sacrifice his incredibly powerful golden core (thereby losing his primary means of defending himself while on the run and drastically shortening his lifespan) to keep his brother from letting himself die; was thrown into a corpse pit for three months where he had to create an entirely new and experimental (and as such incredibly dangerous) form of cultivation and probably resort to cannibalism just to survive; had to fight a war almost immediately after escaping; spent a... good portion of time (not sure how long exactly because the MDZS timeline is more a suggestion than an actual coherent timeline) being treated alternately as a tame pet or a rabid animal and having to pretend everything was just fine while everyone tried to either control him or remove him and his brother very obviously got increasingly resentful of his skill and power; had to abandon his home, his family, and everything he had left of his old life to save a bunch of innocent people while everyone, including his brother, acted like he’d gone mad for not wanting to let them die horribly; had to go back to the corpse pit he spent three months in because it was the only place where they might be safe; accidentally killed his brother-in-law due to losing control after being ambushed on the way to a celebration for his nephew that he was invited to by people he trusted, almost certainly making him wonder on at least some level if that was why he was invited; lost two members of his new family who he clearly loved because of said accidental murdering; learned their deaths were for nothing and, when he retaliated against the planned attack that shouldn’t have happened because that’s what WQ and WN gave their lives to prevent, saw his beloved sister die to save him; and, after all that, lost the rest of his new family to a siege on a civilian population led by his brother. And after all that, his response was... to destroy the incredibly dangerous weapon he’d made because he didn’t trust the sects to not destroy each other and themselves with it and kill himself rather than risk losing control again and hurting anyone else. In the novel too; I don’t doubt for a second that WWX planned on dying in that siege, even if he didn’t expect destroying the seal to do it.

Take a look at that paragraph. All those things that happened to WWX. And in the end, he was kind. He was so, so kind, and remains kind even after thirteen years of being dead. He would have been well within his rights to go all “Then let me be evil” on the sects, but every time he attacked them they struck first, and most of the serious damage he did happened as a direct result of losing control of his experimental and mostly unknown new cultivation, which is a real risk even with spiritual cultivation; NMJ probably would have happily killed everyone in Qinghe if the qi deviation hadn’t gotten to him first, given how easy it was for him to attack even his beloved little brother. Everything bad that happened to JC is on that list, pretty much. Everything that JC suffered WWX did too, with some variations in the details (and of course dead versus alone for the same period of time). JC had the advantage of a sect at his back and a high rank by virtue of his birth, while WWX’s position was entirely reliant on JFM and, later, JC. And yet some people insist that WWX’s trauma doesn’t excuse his actions but JC’s somehow does. Now, some people argue it’s different because WWX was a mass murderer. Yeah, well, JC’s a fucking serial killer, and he doesn’t have the excuse of losing control due to using resentful energy to cultivate and being attacked by everyone he’d ever known and trusted.

...I’ve kind of lost track of where I’m going with this. Short version: I very strongly disagree with anyone who insists WWX’s trauma doesn’t excuse his actions while bending over backwards to argue that JC’s trauma excuses his.

#well that got... long #and probably not super fun #i have Thoughts about this particular subject it seems #grapehate #asks #anon

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crossdressingdeath · 4 years

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I seriously think people need to stop being so hard on WWX for the whole core transfer thing. I agree that maybe WWX could have spoken to JC about it first, because even though he wasn’t in a great state of mind, he did calm down enough after WWX said that there was a way to restore his core, and he could have maybe mentioned his plan then. Whether JC wanted it or not, that'd be up to JC - so I do understand why some people have an issue with the consent side of it. However, I think the 1/8

extent of the reactions that some JC stans seem to have is pretty extreme. It's always a blatant, ‘WWX shouldn't have done that, it was a violation, he didn't get consent first,’ ect. and literally no empathy or understanding for his situation. Even if they can argue that WWX could have informed JC about what was going on first, you also need to consider the situation he was in. This was a teenage boy who had just had his whole home destroyed, the people who had raised him/he'd grown up with 2/8

killed; he had been blamed for the whole thing by both his brother and the woman who had abused him for most of his life, and YZY's dying wish was that he protect her son no matter what. Then, almost immediately after, his brother gets kidnapped, and is badly injured and has his core destroyed. WWX was in a terrible mindset by that point, was feeling heaps of misplaced guilt - and then JC wakes up and literally starts losing his mind. Of course I'm not complaining about this, JC had just 3/8

been tortured and had his life achievement taken away from him, of course he would be completely hysterical. But from WWX's side, watching this, of course he's completely freaking out. Just look at this scene. JC has literally completely given up by this point. WWX probably feels like he is about to lose his brother, and on top of that, YZY's words are probably replaying in his head. Then, when JC wakes up again, he is completely suicidal. He refuses to eat, he doesn't even want to move. 4/8

There's a moment when WWX asks JC, “Do you really want to die?" and I think that's the moment when he truly makes up his mind. Perhaps JC might have learnt to live with it in time, or perhaps WWX could have helped him cope with it, but that's not what we're talking about right now. We are talking about a teenaged boy who has been through horrible trauma, has been blamed for the destruction of his home, and is in a terrible place right now. 5/8

All he really has left at this point is JYL and JC, and he probably feels like he needs to protect them to make up for his 'mistakes' - and despite his best efforts, JC has been hurt, and is threatening to end his life. Even when you ignore all of that other stuff, just the amount of fear anyone - let alone a CHILD - would feel, watching someone they loved going through all of this. Of course he would want to do anything to make JC happy again. Overall, WWX was in a terrible place at the 6/8

time; he was in over his head, and he didn't know what else to DO to make the situation better. People who act like he was blatantly violating JC's consent, or whatever else they're saying, don't seem to take into account any of these extenuating circumstances, or the fact that this was a teenaged boy trying to handle a situation he should have never had to deal with in the only way he knew how to. I've seen so many people talk about how JC doesn't need to be grateful because he never 7/8

asked for this, but WWX never asked him to be grateful. He didn't even want JC to know - he only ever wanted him to be happy. And it's just frustrating how so many JC stans refuse to see any of the nuances in these events, or understand that there was just so much going on, and that any of their arguments against the core transfer don’t mean the exact same thing in that situation that they might, say, if the same thing had happened post-canon. 8/8

Yes. WWX was a teenager watching his brother die in front of him! JC refused to even speak to him! All WWX knew was that losing his golden core was killing JC, and giving up his own in return was the only thing he could think of that could possibly save him. It’s not a violation to give someone an organ when the alternative is letting them die; why should this be any different? WWX was raised in such a way that his reaction to a situation like this was... kind of inevitable, too. The Jiangs really did groom him to put them above himself in every respect, so of course his reaction to JC losing his golden core was to offer up his own! And JC did play a part in that grooming; he too very clearly believed WWX should always put himself second, and WWX took that to heart. Why is it such a surprise that WWX would give up such a huge part of himself to someone who always expected that from him without feeling the need to ask? JC had taught him that he expected that level of sacrifice from WWX. That’s a big part of why he was willing to give up his golden core, and it never seems to get brought up in these discussions, likely because it involves acknowledging that... yeah, JC was in fact abusive towards WWX and taught him to put JC ahead of himself in every respect.

And the whole “JC doesn’t need to be grateful because he didn’t ask for this” is like... sure, okay, but he should at least acknowledge what WWX gave up for him? He should recognize how much love and devotion such a huge sacrifice would have demanded? But he doesn’t. I really do get the sense that this was something he expected WWX to do. This was the required level of self-sacrifice. He doesn’t treat it as something incredible that very few people would have the will to do to themselves with such terrible odds no matter how much they loved the other person, he takes it as rightful payment for his family’s deaths. It’s not “Oh, how could you do such a huge thing”; it’s “It is right and just that you would sacrifice everything in payment for deaths that weren’t even your fault but also how dare you permanently outdo me and then not even spend the rest of your life as my servant”. So... yeah, the golden core transfer is a combination of WWX’s desperation on seeing his brother committing slow suicide right in front of him and JC himself teaching WWX that that level of sacrifice would be acceptable that led to WWX feeling that giving up his golden core would be something that JC would be okay with without even feeling the need to ask him (never mind that he didn’t have the ability to ask him because JC refused to speak to him.)

#mdzs #cql #grapehate #dis-core-se #anon #asks

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