#I desperately want to read the scene of JGY telling LXC and NMJ about what he's naming his sword | Explore Tumblr Posts and Blogs

fincalinde · 1 year

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I’ve been rereading it’s worth it every time and that + the post abt mxy reminded me of how much I like your take on what happened! the way that… it’s not malicious on mxy’s part and at first he doesn’t even seem to realize how obvious he’s being, but he does eventually escalate to actual, unwelcome, come-ons towards jgy (the first scene when he checks on him and gives him heart eyes vs the “I’m yours” scene, is what I’m thinking here)

Thanks so much! I put a lot of thought into making MXY canon consistent, and I really wanted to capture how desperately vulnerable he is without minimising his behaviour. And off the back of this I've written an entire post about JGY and MXY exploring how JGY chooses to handle the MXY issue in canon, so here goes.

The relationship between JGY and MXY is a complicated one. JGY is the victim of MXY's inappropriate behaviour, but this isn't what could be considered a traditional perpetrator-victim dynamic. MXY is younger, less experienced, less powerful, and has at least one unspecified mental health condition. Even before JGY becomes clan leader, he has authority over MXY even if simply by virtue of being MXY's elder and quasi-mentor—and once JGY actually is clan leader, he literally has the power of life and death over MXY.

Before JGY is clan leader, he's in a much more awkward position because any harassment he receives from MXY either isn't going to be believed or no one is going to do anything about it. JGS isn't going to step in to protect JGY from the brother who is at Golden Carp Tower literally to reinforce how easily he can be replaced. It makes sense if JGY is, if not necessarily fending off open advances at this stage, then at least navigating treacherous waters. MXY is in awe of him and can't physically overpower him, but JGY is still forced to live with him.

Once JGY is clan leader, he has far more options. It's telling that he doesn't quietly dispose of MXY—which he could easily do. I'm actually going to digress and talk about JGY's many other illegitimate siblings for a moment, because I never really see them brought up and we know they are plentiful and many of them have perfectly respectable mothers. Like MXY, the very fact of their existence is absolutely a threat.

We get one extremely unreliable indication in the text that JGY might have killed off some of his other half-siblings. During the scene in which everyone turns on him and starts shouting baseless slander, one of the claims thrown out is that before he had his father killed he spent a couple of years quietly eliminating his various illegitimate and unacknowledged half-siblings. I don't for a moment think this is true or that we are intended to think this is true, considering other claims include JGY, a prostitute's son, only rising to power by sucking up to NMJ and LXC; and JGY deliberately orchestrating XXC's death for having the temerity to politely reject an invitation to join the Jin at a time when it was led by JGS.

So obviously this is nonsense. But, OK, it's not as though it's completely implausible that JGY might have wanted his half-siblings out of the way. He didn't intend for JZX to die but he certainly didn't hesitate to put him in danger. Let's take the least generous read possible and imagine that this demonstrably false gossip has a seed of truth: once he comes to power, JGY begins to quietly eliminate his other half-siblings to ensure no rivals emerge. We know JGY is ruthless. It makes sense that he'd be taking precautions.

But we also know JGY is not solely ruthless, and that he is also generous and loyal and repays his debts in his own fashion. Maybe he did bump off half-siblings out of fear that his enemies could rally behind one of them. But he doesn't have QS quietly killed, even though it would solve his incest problem, because he is so profoundly grateful that she treats him with respect and love and makes nothing of his background. And, more interestingly, he doesn't have MXY quietly killed either.

JGY is an efficient and capable man, but he has a habit of putting people who know just a little too much in out of the way places where he doesn't necessarily have to think about them but they remain as loose ends. I'm not necessarily saying my read is that JGY was definitely systematically killing off his siblings over the years, but I do think it's something he is in theory capable of (I support him), so the fact that MXY is kicked out without subsequently having a terrible and terribly convenient accident is notable. It's also consistent with his habit of not following through completely on eliminating risk of exposure (however small) if he feels affection and/or gratitude towards someone. See: NMJ, XY, QS, Sisi, etc.

I think it shows almost supernatural forbearance that MXY is deposited back at Mo Manor. He really could so easily have been killed. He knows about the Jin's experimentations in demonic cultivation, which makes him a liability, and has even seen WWX's notes. If JGY were really as ruthlessly pragmatic as so many in fandom seem to think, MXY would have died in a convenient accident not long after arriving back at Mo Manor. The only explanation is that JGY is genuinely fond of MXY, and in classic JGY fashion this means putting MXY in a miserable situation that's out of sight and out of mind so JGY can continue to flatter himself that he didn't kill him.

#ask #crashorpie #roquen meta #jin guangyao #mo xuanyu #once again: i support him #there's such complexity here and it always gets more interesting the deeper i dig

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songofclarity · 3 years

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Your tags on that one gif set with Lan Xichen and Nie Mingjue in Wen Ruohan's throne room are so good, and also they made me want to reread that chapter (I have finished the book by now! well, all but a few of the extra chapters) to refresh my memory as to how that scene went in the book.

A very belated thank you! I’ve read Nie MingJue’s empathy chapters a ridiculous amount of times and it’s always time well spent, so I definitely encourage it if you haven’t gone back to reread it already!

I had to go take a look at what I wrote in the tags, which I’ll link in the sources for reference sake, but:

#the first and only time we see lxc defend jgy to nmj is this scene #set in the place where jgy hosted nmj's torture #we can't even see nmj's face at this angle but #he's just swaying like he can barely hold himself up #and his hair is all out of sorts #i desperately cling to the novel version #where lxc is supporting him the whole time #where lxc won't let nmj kill jgy #bc nmj was going to kill himself as well #just in case jgy really was innocent #nmj calling jgy's bluff #but lxc stops it all #bc lxc wants to save lives if there isn't hard proof against them #oh cql how cruel of you to wreck havoc on nmj and lxc's relationship like this...

Wow, this scene does make me feel things! Although I do side-eye a lot of what CQL did with Lan XIChen’s character and motivations lol I’m just going to pull part of the scene from the novel since we’re here~ Or that I’m here and there is no one to stop me...

(Meng Yao,) "ChiFeng-Zun!!! Don't you understand that if I didn't kill [the Nie cultivators held captive alongside you], you'd be the one who die then?!!"

This was actually the same as saying, 'I'm the one who saved your life so you can't kill me or else it'd be immoral.' However, Jin GuangYao was indeed worthy of his reputation. The same meaning but a different wording, and he was able to create a contained sense of frustration and a reserved sense of sorrow. As he had expected, Nie MingJue's movement halted. Veins stood out under his forehead.

Having paused for a while, [Nie MingJue] clenched the hilt of his saber and shouted, "Very well! I'll kill myself after I kill you!"

So Meng Yao is very much being manipulative here in the face of Nie MingJue having just woken up from a traumatic, near-death experience being carried by someone who was an eager contributor of said traumatic, near-death experience. A chase scene ensues but Nie MingJue is too weak to do much more than be menacing. Meng Yao does have a cut on his arm by the time Lan XiChen arrives, but Wei WuXian’s narration consistently states Meng Yao dodged and ran, so who knows how he got it or (conspiracy theory!) he gave it to himself, knowing Lan XiChen would arrive.

Amid all the action, a surprised voice suddenly called out, "MingJue-xiong!"

A figure dressed in clean, white robes darted out of the forest. Meng Yao looked as if he had just seen a god from Heaven. He quickly scrambled over and hid behind the person's back, "ZeWu-Jun!!! ZeWu-Jun!!!"

Nie MingJue was in the middle of his rage. He didn't even have the chance to ask why Lan XiChen was there as he shouted, "XiChen, move!"

Baxia's strikes were so menacing that Shuoyue had to unsheath. Lan XiChen stopped him, half to support his figure and half to block his attacks, "MingJue-xiong, calm down! Why bother?"

Nie MingJue, "Why don't you ask what he did?!"

Lan XiChen turned around to look at Meng Yao... (ERS, ch. 49)

“A god from Heaven,” Lan XiChen is described, who goes right to Nie MingJue’s side. It’s Nie MingJue he’s worried for, it’s Nie MingJue he keeps from falling. Nie MingJue is covered in blood, he’s injured, he’s raging -- Nie MingJue is the one who needs help and support, and Lan XiChen doesn’t even hesitate to get right in there and provide it. People are later shown fearful and respectful of Nie MingJue to such a degree that they won’t throw him flowers to him at a welcoming ceremony for fear of provoking his anger, but Lan XiChen always shows absolute faith that Nie MIngJue would never harm him even when Baxia is unleashed.

So although I love CQL having Nie MingJue wake up on Lan XiChen’s lap in the Sun Palace, it still pales in comparison to Lan XiChen racing forward without care for his own safety in order to grab onto Nie MingJue. Nie MingJue who faced total defeat at Yangquan. Nie MingJue who was captured by Wen RuoHan. Nie MingJue who is bloodied and injured and was very likely thought as good as dead.

And although the argument might also be made that Lan XiChen was throwing himself into danger to save Meng Yao, I don’t see it considering Lan XiChen’s focus is always on Nie MingJue. Here at Nightless City, at the stairs of Koi Tower, and at the Tournament in Qinghe, Lan XiChen stays with Nie MingJue with the intention of talking him down. Nie MingJue’s anger is a double-edged sword. He might kill Meng Yao, yes, but his risk of qi deviating will kill him, too. I think of this in the perspective of a healthcare professional: you stay with the patient when they are having a mental crisis. It gives them stability and grounding and safety, which is what Lan XiChen consistently offers--and which Meng Yao freely takes by hiding behind him. Nie MingJue is the one who needs immediate help, not Meng Yao. And that’s how Meng Yao gets away with all his nonsense. Lan XiChen is so focused on Nie MingJue, on talking him back from the ledge, on making sure he gets the help he needs, that he doesn’t see Meng Yao’s slight of hand. He doesn’t see what Nie MingJue sees with Meng Yao cowering behind him.

But even when Nie MingJue and Lan XiChen argue about Meng Yao in the novel, they are never on opposite sides. They present to each other what they know and what they’ve seen. They both listen and they both get opportunities to speak until understanding occurs. This is a very healthy relationship! At least fundamentally. When Nie MingJue tells Lan XiChen to ask Meng Yao what he’s done, Lan XiChen doesn’t question him or doubt him, but instead turns to do so. Meng Yao does not get a free pass, but he uses silence to get others to speak for him. He is still held accountable, but it just so happens the story he has spun is quite convincing.

And although Lan XiChen provides Meng Yao a defense, the defense is consistently this: Meng Yao’s actions were done to help Nie MingJue. While we know that is a lie, that Nie MingJue was little more than Meng Yao’s means to an end, the understanding Lan XiChen has been led to believe is sound. Lan XiChen as well says that he wouldn’t be there to help Nie MingJue without Meng Yao having told him where to go. Thus, coming from Lan XiChen’s mouth, Nie MingJue is led to believe the tale as well.

It’s just all about the inherent love and trust in Nie MingJue and Lan XiChen’s relationship! That even when they argue, there is still love, and after they fight, there is still love. At no point does their relationship ever falter. At no point do they doubt one another. And that’s beautiful.

On another note, Meng Yao immediately going to hide behind Lan XIChen is so reminiscent of how Nie HuaiSang behaves in the future. The Nie HuaiSang we know prior to Nie MingJue’s death is actually quite bold! He yells at Nie MingJue and kicks his saber and storms out! Who else has yelled at Nie MingJue!? Nobody! So Nie HuaiSang literally used Meng Yao's pitiful act as his cover for his revenge scheme and I love it.

#asked from above #ajax-daughter-of-telamon #mdzs thoughts #ty for the ask i know it's taken me awhile!#catching up on asks~#feeling things about the faves~#making those feels everyone else's problem~#life is good lol #nielan #jgy vs nmj

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f-f-friend · 4 years

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thoughts on nie mingjue

Warning: LONG POST AHEAD, i’ll put it under a read more

Every time I think about how the MDZS fandom is dead-set in their portrayal of Nie Mingjue solely as a bad-tempered, violent man whose sole motive was to hurt the oh-so-victimised JGY, I get so sad... So I’m gonna go on a quick rant and address some of these misportrayals:

TLDR: Nie Mingjue = victim, Jin Guangyao = villain, just because the MDZS fandom seems to have gotten them mixed up

1) The thing that bothers me the most: This portrayal of NMJ as some “Wen-dog” hating, hot-headed monster who would hate every single Wen person and hate them for no reason...

Nie Mingjue was a good (remember this!!) man who was brave and righteous and was, like the other characters, thrust into war at a young age. He didn’t start the Sunshot Campaign just because he just hated the Wen Sect so much for no good reason. For some reason when it comes to NMJ everyone forgets that the Wen people were the ANTAGONISTS of the Sunshot campaign?? His father was murdered by WRH, other Sects had been absorbed or destroyed. He hated the Wen Sect (in terms of WRH and those loyal to him) because he (and those he cared about) had been victimised by them.

FURTHERMORE, NMJ was the only Sect Leader in the Sunshot Campaign that was canonically shown to care about what was happening to the civilians. Did you all forget empathy? Yes he made a lot of kills in the Sunshot Campaign but did he ever want to hurt civilians just for the heck of it? Just because he just loved violence that much?? No!! Read MDZS again and tell me where that happened.

2) Nie Mingjue had close relationships with people (NHS, LXC)

During his empathy scene, WWX said that he was having such lively conversation with 3zun that he even wanted to join in!! Just because he canonically had a bad temper doesn’t mean he was some terrifying abusive monster that everyone barely tolerated out of fear?? He was a likeable person who had friendships and was loved.

Even with JGY, when he still saw him as a good person with similar ideals to him (which BTW is the basis of EVERY REASONABLE FRIENDSHIP and Not an extremely high standard only held by NMJ like the fandom pretends), he protected him from gossip and mentored him and took care of him. He believed in and was protective of JGY basically up until he saw him killing that Jin sect captain, at which point it was perfectly reasonable to no longer trust him!!

And, even then, even after the shit with JGY killing all the Nie cultivators (which to me didn’t seem necessary but you all can interpret it however), whether it was due to LXC’s coaxing or because he still held out some hope for JGY, he still swore brotherhood with him to continue to guide him. IDK about you all but that to me doesn’t seem like someone who hated JGY with a passion. It seems like someone who was to some extent still hoping for JGY to turn things around. He could’ve just given up on him!! But he didn’t, not after all JGY had already done, and not even during the Xue Yang shitfest... It was really only during the worst moments of his qi deviation (which was very much JGY’s fault!!!) that he physically hurt JGY at all instead of just openly distrusting him.

3) ...and wasn’t just a rage monster that they tiptoed around!!

Which brings me to the fact that despite NMJ always having had a bad temper as the book implies, it wasn’t until his qi deviation that he began to get truly bad. Him destroying NHS’s things, and being aggressive and angry, and even the supposedly worst thing, kicking JGY down the stairs and calling him the “son of a wh*re” all happened after JGY had started poisoning him. This is fact, people!! Nie Mingjue was not an abuser, he was a righteous and good man whose mind and life were poisoned by someone he should’ve been able to trust!! This should not be a constant portrayal of him – he is NOT the monster that JGY tried to make of him. Even at the end, in his very last moments, he still saw his brother clearly. THAT’S who he was, someone who cared deeply about the people he loved (yes, even JGY to some extent even after he stopped deserving it).

4) ALSO on the subject of NMJ being tooooooo black and white in his thinking, and being toooo righteous (is that a thing?) and having tooo high standards for Jin Guangyao

First of all, when fandom touts that NMJ’s standards for JGY were too high, were they really so high? All he asked for was a good soldier and friend who WOULDN’T JUST STAB AND KILL their own captains in the middle of a war... and wouldn’t remorselessly murder cultivators to keep their own cover... and then wouldn’t protect someone who murdered an ENTIRE SECT from receiving due justice...

Yes, Jin Guangyao did have reasons for what he did. Were they JUSTIFIABLE? To me, it’s a matter of what you prize. Jin Guangyao is a painfully selfish character – even before he started actively joining Jin Guangshan in being evil, he was already selfish!

Yes he needed to keep his cover in front of Wen Ruohan, but why did he have to murder those Nie cultivators to do that? And then still never even ONCE show remorse over it, even right after the fact?? He just constantly complains that “I only killed a few cultivators out of desperation and you keep on bringing it up” (italics mine)... The way he talks about cheapens the sanctity of those lives taken, and turns it into a minor mistake, which is the same way the fandom speaks of it as well. Whether they actually believe it or they just wanna make JGY look better, I’m not sure.

And yes, his position in Jin Sect was precarious and his father disdained him. Did that justify protecting Xue Yang after he masscred an entire clan? No! And even if it did justify protecting Xue Yang somehow, even if his reasons justified ANY wrong that he did, it still doesn’t mean he was in the right!! He was doing acts of self-preservation, even if it’s not unjustifiable, it still caused harm and he prized himself above all that. And Nie Mingjue, even if he was clueless about JGY’s struggles, even if he was speaking from a place of privilege or just too stupid to see nuances in life, was still right! He shouldn’t have killed the captain or murdered the Nie cultivators or protected Xue Yang.

IN CONCLUSION

What I’m TRYING to say is this: Nie Mingjue’s portrayal by the fandom (in fanfics and discussions and even in youtube comments...) as the AGGRESSOR of the 3zun dynamic is due to the unbelievably large amount of sympathy there is in the fandom for Jin Guangyao that causes them to heed his words more even when they’re clearly meant to arouse sympathy and sway the listener. Nie Mingjue, who is definitely the victim of the Venerated Triad (literally don’t see how he’s anything but that) does not get that same sympathy, whether it’s due to a smaller time in the spotlight or maybe he doesnt have a sad backstory (he does its so sad) or whatever other reason. Either way, this has caused a overwhelming amount of portrayals of Nie Mingjue as the aggressor in the trio... No. He was the victim. If you don’t believe me, go ask the dismembered HEAD that was lying in JGY’s STUDY FOR YEARS!!

When the fandom pushes this belief that Nie Mingjue is a brainless, emotionless (except for anger) aggressive monster whose only purpose in life was to bully the helpless Jin Guangyao, it strangely makes me realise that even the readers who are exposed fully to the depravities of JGY’s character have still fallen for Jin Guangyao’s lies. It makes me so sad that NMJ’s life and character is defined by his worst enemy who hurt him (and those around him, yes including LXC) the most.

(If you’ve read until this point for some reason PLEASE hit me up to discuss this more, I’d be happy to talk more about NMJ or MDZS in general... If you’re gonna argue just be polite!!)

#nie mingjue #jin guangyao #3zun #venerated triad #lan xichen #mo dao zu shi #mdzs #mdzs meta #nie mingjue meta #mo dao zu shi meta #my thoughts #idk why but i was listening to the audio drama and got hit with a huge wave of NMJ love #before you all come for me i just wanna clarify that i love jgy a lot i just think fandom sees him very... rose tinted-ly #james talks

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