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mooglesorts · 1 year

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i have not been active on this blog in a While and being very normal about my old hyperfixation lorien legacies, which has an absolute fuckload of characters to sort, has finally gotten me to crawl out of my hole.

[spoilers ahead for both lorien legacies and its sequel series!]

there is a LOT of ground to cover here, and i am mostly going to limit myself to sorting characters and themes from the first series, but my initial notes are:

probably one of the biggest overarching themes of the series is toxic birdsec, and the harm it can do to every aspect of a society or a person's life--on both a systematic level and an individual one--right down to their basic humanity. by extension it also goes into similarly fucked up lion and bird primary used as weapons and tools of abuse, and how they interplay with each other.

a large part of this stems from setrákus ra being The Worst Fucking Lion Bird Ever to Live, lmao. he's an interesting example of birdsec interplaying with cannibal badger, and also of a lion bird who's a cheetah in that he uses systems as tools to manipulate people instead of actually believing them. he hands out toxic systems like candy while peppering them with outright lies, and blithely admits that even the one that he's put centuries into building--mogadorian progress, and the great book--is at its heart just a ruse to run his cult on. the truth he pretends to worship and champion isn't external, objective truth--it's an extension of him. he is the ultimate truth. and the only truth he believes in is his cause, which is that he has the right and ability to own, make use of, and do whatever he sees fit with everything in existence. everyone and everything that could possibly be a shiny or a tool belongs to him.

one of the other overarching themes is toxic badger primary and secondary--cannibal badgering AHOY--as well as toxic lion primary, and it is a great deal less intentional than the bird cautionary tale part lmao

five is a bird snake with deeply toxic lion primary and bird secondary models, one of which he picked up after getting involved with a cult, and one of which he's had since his abusive birdsec guardian started amputating his masks by trying to apply actor bird to them. :') his brand of birdsplode and snakeburn make him horribly, horribly vulnerable to the cult, especially combined with focused, one-on-one gaslighting and manipulation from setrákus himself, and he has to burn his bird right to a crisp to break away from it. i am very biased and i have so much to say about my boy, but i plan to go in depth about this later

there are a LOT of lionsecs among the loric garde kids. the only surviving ones who aren't lionsecs are marina's badger and five's snake (the latter of which is heavily villainized, lol); number one is either a lionsec or a snakesec, maggie is either a birdsec or a badgersec, and we don't really see enough of hannu to be sure, but my guess is badgersec. in context, whatever these books are saying here i am not sure i like it lmao

this stands in contrast to the non-garde allies, minus adam, who end up being Part of the Gang. sam and lexa are birdsecs, and sarah and malcolm are both badgersecs.

speaking of adam, he is a lion snake with a cool, calculated double bird performance/model, who has been waiting all his life for a chance to go Absolutely Feral. there are a lot of ways in which he's a real shithead, which track given his life and circumstances up to then but are also real 😬 sometimes, but like, good for him. go ape shitt, kid

nine is an awful, AWFUL double lion who models/performs the worst parts of badger primary; he also uses lionsec stereotypes and methods to misdirect people, so that he can hurt, gaslight, prey on, and abuse them. it's genuinely interesting how he does it, and i could go on for a long time about it, but it's also Infuriating because the authors really want you to love him for being a ~charming jerk with a heart of gold,~ so that is for another post. in the sequel series he also picks up a nasty posthumous birdsec model from sandor to gleefully torture children with so lmfao

there seem to be a lot of birdsecs and badgersecs among the mentor cêpans, which tracks, because, well, mentors. interestingly, it seems to be a pattern so far that the birdsec mentors are either some of the most deeply abusive among them (see: rey, sandor, and ethan even though he's an unofficial cêpan), or the most decent parents of them under the circumstances (see: katarina).

john is a hognose (badgery snake) 'i live here' snake lion, and a VERY loud one. he's set on saving the world mainly a) in order to save his People, or b) because it's what they would want. he also believes STRONGLY in snake values as applied to other people, and absolutely cannot grok that anyone would feel differently--he holds back on killing a major enemy because he's worried about killing a friendly acquaintance's Person--and honestly he can be kind of a huge dick about it lmao. he burns HARD at the end of the first series when sarah dies; in the second, he copes by making an entire community into his circle and no longer gives a shit about the rest of the world outside it, including groups who are in similar if not worse circumstances than his community. Horrific War Crimes Ensue!

rex is an everyone double badger and i love him so much. i love him So Much. he is a wonderful example of how to write a morally dubious character whose dodgy qualities interest me instead of making me grit my teeth and Tolerate Them. his arc could have fixed So Much of the Ending's Bullshit and i will be forever mad that they dumped it in the trash

there is more, oh my god there's so much more, this series has SO many characters in it, but this is a start thank you for coming to my ted talk

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painted-crow · 1 year

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hi! I hope you're well. I've been thinking about my primaries and secondaries a lot lately. I'm always interested in people and I'm very good with understanding them too: it drives most of what I do, from my job to my choice of education to what I do for fun. ethics in my mind are also a bit contextual because of this: I can't really evaluate an act without knowing more about the person and situation//it's never black and white for me. I'm not an idealist, I think? (1)

I'm already giggling at this. You are such a loud Bird. "Evaluate an act" is an incredibly Bird lens. I think you might be associating Idealists with rigidity, or with certainty. Healthy Birdpris actually make a lot of space for uncertainty and for being able to say they don't have a good conclusion for whether something specific is Right yet.

And Birdpri systems are complex and built gradually over one's life precisely because there's so much nuance to be had in different situations. Not everything is going to run up against the core axioms of your system (things like "human life is inherently valuable" and "unnecessary suffering is bad").

Idealists can value people too. Birds tend to really value understanding others, it's a highly prioritized form of empathy for us, but not everyone works that way. Someone else might say, "I don't understand but I feel for you," or "I don't understand but I want to help, so you tell me what you need." Other primaries value understanding too, but for a Bird it's the first thing we go for--we feel pretty lost if we don't have some model of what's going on.

secondary-wise, much of the understanding of people thing happens sort of subconsciously--I figure out what's happening w people or how they're thinking or what they really want right 99% of the time, and it's always without really thinking about it. when it comes to other things, though, I usually work like this: I plan a thing/reach a solution for a problem, check w one person I trust about whether it works, then I execute. (2)

You've basically written me a flowchart. You lean heavily on plans and processes. Birdsec.

Having a skill down to the point where it works without you thinking about it doesn't make it not a skill; this is a Rapid-Fire Bird thing, not an Improvisational thing.

Checking your work with someone trusted doesn't make you a Badger; in this case it makes you a very meticulous Bird who's using your resources effectively.

I'm guessing at badger primary (I think just ensuring *everyone* is understood well matters the most to me? so it feels like a better guess than the rest rn), but very uncertain about secondary. feels a little gryffy sometimes but not really? I am anti-charging or plowing ahead--plans keep me sane and calm. I also read through multiple posts about shc cross-verifying traits and analyses and had to feel like I was getting nowhere before I sent this, if that says anything? thank you for this! (3)

Again, the "everyone needs to be understood" thing is a Birdpri trait. Why does everyone need to be understood? So that you and everyone else can factor the full context into your personal decision-making systems, of course! If you care about someone, you have a mental model of their needs and priorities and favorite ice cream flavors, right?

Badger language tends to be more like, "everyone needs to be cared for, their voice heard, not forgotten about--they deserve to get the help they need because they're people." But understanding is so important to Birds because a lot of our identity is often wrapped up in our systems, which we see as a thing that can be understood--and not everyone has this intricately defined worldview that they think about a lot and can explain to other people.

Plans keep you sane and calm and you've been problem-solving your Sorting by doing tons of research and cross-referencing everyone's different writing to come up with a mental model of the system to work with. Also, for all the reading you've been doing from probably a variety of different posters, I was the one you chose to write to--probably because my extremely double Bird writing voice sounds comfortingly familiar.

Welcome to the birdhouse, nonny.

#bird primary #bird secondary #sortinghatchats #paint speaks

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sevilemar · 6 months

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hey! long time, no see! i'm sending this ask to let you know that my sortme ask was answered by wisteria after about a year (i had no idea she had so many asks ._.) and the results were *drumroll*... snake/lion! the lionsec was definitely a HUGE surprise; lion was the LAST secondary i probably would have expected. after thinking about it a lot and talking it over with others, i think it makes a lot of sense. it's been burned, but it's definitely there, especially when i'm comfortable and having fun. i just tend to use my birdsec model for important things, especially when i'm anxious. thought you'd like the update!

how's life on your end? hope you've been well. i tend to comb through your sorting asks and find your advice for burned anons very comforting.

- ☕🐍

Hello there, tea-snake-with-a-roar, how wonderful to hear from you!

Congrats on finding your lion secondary under the burning! I hope it feels good to see yourself a bit clearer now *hugs* I'm glad my older words give you some comfort with your burning; let me know if I can help with something specific, yeah?

I very much appreciate the update, even though I'm not much into shc anymore. I have found a quiet peace in the last few months with DnD games, painting miniatures, and living off the lands as much as I can in a city. It mostly means harvesting fruits, nuts, and berries from public lands all over my quartier, and making them into jams, jellies, compote, cakes, and everything inbetween. It's very satisfying and a lot of fun, and of course the perfect thing to do in autumn^^

#sortinghatchats #ask answers

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thecottageinthedark · 2 years

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i could make a proper looking post about this but that would be too much effort

okay so i have a soft spot for the moomin books because what reasonable gay doesn't, and it occurred to me that one of the easiest if not the easiest character in them to sort is moominmamma. moomintroll himself is sorta...a bit too central to be easily visible at first glance? but you get a very strong impression of the characters around him, and moominmamma is probably tried for top there with snufkin. plus, she is really the protagonist of the first of the books, 'the moomins and the great flood', which is all about her looking after her son and a random other kid who wandered in and guiding them through a surreal and dreamlike landscape to find a safe place to live.

she is very obviously a snake primary. a wide-circle snake-she has a big family and she likes adding new people into it! but she is not really concerned with any bigger communities, or with her family as a community; she is concerned with individuals.

it feels very telling that as well as snufkin's frequent noted absences, sometimes characters just kinda disappear between books; there's no implication that anything happened to them, they just are not around anymore. the feeling you get is that they chose to wander off and have different adventures elsewhere. it just feels very much more of a chill snake primary thing than a badger one, to be easily accepting of that.

in any case a chill friendly snake is probably a pretty obvious sorting for a mom character in a kid's book! her secondary, though, that one is a little less of a Common Trope.

because she's a birdsec. she carries a huge handbag around with her of Useful Items and when it gets lost she absolutely goes to pieces until she gets it back. she's great at mcguyvering up solutions to problems via creative tool use. one that really stands out is the standoff over the king's ruby; moominmamma solves that by coming up with the option of a trade for it and offering the hobgoblin's hat iin exchange

and i Love This because it means that the kind cosy cottagecore mama from a beloved classic kids' series has the classic villain/mastermind sorting and it works perfectly.

#sorting hat chats #moomins #the moomins #moominmamma

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wisteria-lodge · 3 years

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lion primary + burnt rapid-fire bird secondary (snake model)

Hi! I’m really enjoying your page and was wondering if you might help me to find my sorting? I can’t settle on Chill Lion Primary or Snake Primary.

I seem to be able to leave friendships really easy

Not *Badger,* maybe? Because Snake can be friends with people who aren’t Inner Circle. Depends on what level of loyalty we’re talking about here… need more data.

if the choice is a stranger in need vs. my closest friend, it would be a stranger I would feel worst for abandoning, but I probably only deeply care about my family members, and friends only to some extent and helping someone in need would make me feel as a better person than just not turning my back on a friend.

… THAT is not a Snake primary answer, I can tell you that for sure.

When I was a kid and my mom would have a fight with my stepfather, I would always side with my mom, even if I knew she was not really right. I did not want to hurt her, but now when I am older, I know how important it is to stand by what you see as right, so I try to d talk about seeing things from both sides, even though I will still stand by her side in the end, probably. There is not much I can do for the people I care about, but when I am given an opportunity to protect and fight for them, I will.

There’s something interesting going on here. Because clearly you acted in a super Snake way when you were younger (‘they might be wrong, but I’m still going to defend them’) but… you felt bad about it. And you definitely *feel* bad about it, in retrospect.

Especially with that situation you gave me right there… I would not be at all surprised if you were expected to model Snake, or even forced to model Snake when you were younger.

But I deeply believe ‘the root of all evil’ is only caring about your own. I think that is selfish and cold.

Yeah. I think you may have an unhealthy Snake influence in your life. The conflict between Loyalists and Idealists is very near the heart of this system, and they do go back and forth, with Loyalists seeing Idealists as ruthless and cruel, Idealists seeing Loyalists as… yeah, selfish and cold. The way I see it, both are beautiful and expansive and know things the other needs to learn - and both can also be warped, and unhealthy, and scary.

I think I would be a better person if I had something to believe in, if I would fight for something bigger than me. I have not found it. Or maybe I did, but there is not much I can do about it. I can not incorporate it into my life apart from personal small actions, and I want to do more

This is very much a Lion primary dream. And I just want to say that the Lion dream does not have to be huge and all-encompassing in order to be meaningful, and real, and fulfilling.

Or maybe I just want an easy and lazy life, just doing what I like and just a bit more and that’s it. Sometimes it is like that too, I believe.

And you know what, that’s kind of a Lion primary mood too :)

I wouldn’t say standing by people you most care about is morally right, but it is a damn strong force.

Still Lion. Like OF COURSE if you can stand by both your morals and your people, that’s IDEAL.

As much as I can remember, I never had anything big and idealistic to believe in, apart from not hurting others, and a lot of what I believe in now is based on that.

You *want* something big and idealistic to believe in, to be happy and fulfilled. That’s still Lion, even if no Cause has clicked with you yet. (I suspect you’re a little burned, which can’t be helping.)

So I was always really harsh to people who I thought were selfish.

Again with this negative Snake influence.

I thought I was a Lion Secondary, but more and more I keep noticing how much I am using honesty as a tool.

Hmmm. Could be a Snake secondary tactic, but Birds do like their tools….

Sure, being yourself is the easiest thing in the world

… everyone does not feel this way. You’ve got strong Lion in your sorting somewhere.

but it also allows you to be seen as readable and trustworthy in your words. I know how much I can shift words or tone just a bit. Sometimes it feels like I am watching from inside, going “oh, you’re doing this now?”

That’s interesting. The way you’re describing thing - the slight arm’s length, knowing the mask is a mask, but also not planning the mask - is making me think more Snake. Although Actor Bird *is* possible.

I am very emotional, and I find it hard to distinguish my morality and moral choices from just general things I do and want.

… so you’re a Lion primary.

So the only other primary on my list could be Lion, which I find hard to understand. How can things turn from some tug of the heart to a full-fleshed ideal? My belief – trying not to hurt people and all that is related to it, in my mind, still comes from a grounded reality, from the fact that it hurts me to see someone being hurt. It’s not because it was idealistically formed somewhere. I think I probably don’t understand this correctly.

Lion primaries aren’t jedi. Their ideals don’t get magically beamed into their heads from some outside force. Lions reason just the same as Birds, they just use a different part of their psyche to do it. The fact that your morality (at its core, at its base) comes from the way things make you feel… that is what makes you a Lion. Birds don’t process things that way.

Maybe this sounds a bit like a Badger Primary, but there is no place for a group in my morality, in my life. Neighbors? Pffft, just let us live in peace and leave us alone. Groups are unpleasant usually. Maybe if you could choose people you like and click with them. Of course, acceptance is important, but it will never be the basis of anything. Have I never had an important group in my life? Maybe, but that would either mean I have been burned for a long time or I am just not a Badger Primary.

You’re not a Badger primary. And while it’s not a universal thing, I would say that Lion primaries tend to be the *most* comfortable with being loners, or spending extending periods of time as loners.

Of course, I use my brain and prioritize in the moment and use logic. I am not a sweet and nice badger girl, although I will be nice and smile and act my part, and sometimes you do hurt someone by telling the truth or putting yourself first, because I also don’t want to hurt myself if I have a different choice.

This is all starting to sound very snake secondary. The practicality, and twisting, and changing in the moment. Although maybe there’s a Badger performance in there?

Even if I can’t feel what others are feeling, I have something informing me about what they might be feeling. Do I care about not hurting my neighbor? It’s more like I care about not hurting myself by getting into a bad situation with them, being shouted at or having other kinds of problems with them, but that’s still some kind of motivation

Move around the problem, be like water.

Honesty is an idealistic value, and I like it, but I think it probably just makes my life easier, easier to read people and be read.

Snake secondary.

I think I also strongly believe in persons’ right to be and express who they are, that’s why I grew up hating gender stereotypes and not really playing into social rituals. I just want to be seen and liked for who I am.

Lion primary.

My Secondary? It probably burned to ashes. Thinking about how I am doing stuff, improv vs build, it just gives me a headache. Improvisation gives me stress, it gives me hell, but it’s the easiest way.

I mean, all the stuff you’ve been talking about - reading people, putting on the right face, changing direction - absolutely counts as improvisational.

Planning, preparing? Lovely, usually - access denied. I just go head first just because I don’t know any other way and have no interest or energy to search for it. I am easily bored, so even if I wanted to work, prepare, research, I would lose interest so fast that there would be no use in even trying.

I don’t think you’re a Badger secondary - but it’s just hard to tell because you are so down on your secondary in general. You’re telling me that prepping in theory is lovely but you don’t know how to do it? (not that you don’t LIKE it. That you CAN’T do it.)

I always thought I would finally find something I wanted to work on, something I would enjoy putting time and energy into, but that does not seem to come true.

That’s some more of the angst of your charred/unfulfilled Lion primary coming though.

I am disappointed in myself. You know, it would be very nice if I could be witty and smart and improvise in the moment, but I’m not,

So you *like* Snake secondaries at least.

so I just gave up some time ago and now usually go straight with my head first. At least I’m getting the experience I would never get any other way.

Your secondary is burnt, for sure. But just reading between the lines here… I think you’re much smarter and more capable than you give yourself credit for.

I think if I were to be a Lion Secondary and constantly do this, I wouldn’t feel the heaviness over my secondary.

That’s another big sign of a burnt secondary. Doing things isn’t fun, it’s heavy, it’s a chore, it’s a slog.

Okay, let’s talk about recipes and cooking. I will follow the recipe, at least until I get what is going on, which flavor does what, why is this and not that. Then I can ditch it. I can add whatever I want later on. If I know which parts are the most important, I might not even need the recipe.

… okay, so this suddenly sounds a LOT like a Rapid-Fire Bird

Imagine a world where they give you a recipe for an apple pie and say make a pie. You follow it, your pie looks fine. Then, when they taste it, they tell you, Oh, you didn’t know, you needed to use sour apples. You didn’t figure that out on your own? No, dagnabit, I was concentrating on making an apple pie for the first time in my life. I had no experience of this thing. I didn’t know what it would be. Then they tell you, Oh, maybe you needed to use coconut sugar or something else, or maybe should have figured out yourself that it’s too sweet or that you hate cinnamon, or maybe your oven is not working properly, so you need to deal with that. Yeah, that’s how I feel about life and its problems and people.

Oh that’s interesting. Because what *this* bit is sounding like… is the angst of a Built secondary dealing with a lot of Improvisational secondaries. I’m think you’re a Bird… with a lot of Snakes and Lions in your life.

Every chance I get, I try to tell people these little small things that you somehow supposedly had to figure out on your own. You need to crack the system first to know how you can break it the best way to achieve your goals. Life, problems, people are systems I will never be able to crack. There is nothing to grab onto, so that’s why freefalling headfirst is the best and the easiest option.

OH. Burnt bird secondary. Snake model.

Btw, I am reading other submissions while writing this, to not go completely out of the path and get any ideas that would be valuable. I do like to have a net behind me to catch me if I fall, ha.

And another little detail that sounds very Birdy.

So I’m reading you as a Lion primary with a Rapid-fire Bird secondary. Your primary is burned a little, and your secondary is burned a lot. And a big part of the reason for that is that you’ve got people around you expecting you to use a Snake model all the time, and you *do* have one, you do. But it feels heavy to you right now. You don’t hate it, but you’d rather use Rapid-Fire or maybe Actor Bird. And that might be feeding into the general Anti-Snake sentiment I’m seeing here.

#submission #sortme #sortinghatchats #wisteria sorts #lion primary #lionpri #burnt lion primary #bird secondary #rapid fire bird secondary #bird secondary vs snake secondary #birdsec #snake secondary model

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blueorangemusic · 3 years

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I love that they put this scene in there. Bird Secondary Acquires Bag. A classic for a reason.

#sortinghatchats #bird secondary #birdsec #atla #sokka #there is not really any doubt by book 2 that sokka is becoming his beautiful birdsec self #but the bag is a nice touch

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soundofez · 2 years

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Hello! I cant figure out if i am a bird primary w/a badger truth or a badger primary w/bird model. I prioritize understanding. Finding the truth and connecting with ALL living things. I highly value my independence but i defend all underdogs-including plants and animals. I only ever regret if my actions or words hurt someone, but i will never pretend something is right to spare anothers feelings. Please help?

(heads up, @wisteria-lodge has asked the community if we'd like to help answer asks to get to them more quickly, and this is one that was sent to me! for reference, i'm a birdpri/badgersec with a snakepri model and a whole host of secondary models.)

I prioritize understanding. Finding the truth

understanding and finding truth are extremely birdpri priorities! badgerpris are usually much more straightforward about things like this: what is true is true, and why are we still thinking about it? in other words, truth is still important, but (in my experience) there's not much finding involved.

and connecting with ALL living things. I highly value my independence but i defend all underdogs-including plants and animals.

and those are your truths! truths are important to birdpris, but we're not just completely objective logic machines. our truths can be (and often are) rooted in our instincts of What Feels Right; we are open to being wrong, but that doesn't mean we throw out everything we can't confirm.

so, how often do you examine your beliefs? do you pick over them to find their roots, as the birdpri do? or do you accept them as they are, and focus more on acting upon them, as a badgerpri would?

I only ever regret if my actions or words hurt someone, but i will never pretend something is right to spare anothers feelings.

this part is closer to your secondary house than your primary house! i won't speculate too much, since you don't appear to be looking for help there, but i will quietly wonder whether this might be a human thing and not a house thing <3

final verdict: birdpri+badger truth/solid secondary or badgerpri/birdsec.

#perpetually [surprised pikachu face] at how easily the secondary houses leak into the primary (and vice versa)#i know they are like this And Yet x)#sortinghatchats #ty for sharing your asks wisteria!#anonymous #fez talks #shc community

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magpie-of-a-birb · 3 years

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If yall are on this blog, I'm sure you've seen the "top five sexiest/unsexiest sortings" ask meme going around a while ago. My dear friend @nounsnlies came up with another idea and I had to make it exist. So, without further ado-

What I love about each sorting

Spoiler alert: you are going to be hearing a lot of "like magic" and "teach me your ways." This is to be expected. Yall are awesome.

(Also, some are longer than others. I'm sorry if I didn't give your sorting as much love, I don't understand yall as well as I do the others (or as well as I wish I understood you))

Double lion: you guys just,,, do things??? You literally just do things. You see a thing, you know you're gonna do it, and then you actually go out and do it until it's done. Literally how. Teach me your ways. Please.

Lion bird: lion bird, oh lion bird. My belovedly detested. When will you stop plaguing my wips with hoards of characters that I thought were literally any other sorting? Jokes about me over-writing my own sorting aside, I love you guys. I get really excited when characters outside of my writing & actual people house-match with me. You guys are the mom-friends with the craziest shit at your disposal that you will use for those you love in a heartbeat. If someone you love - or even just someone that it's Right to help - needs your help, you are doing whatever you can. If you don't have anything that can help, then by God you're gonna find someone who does or learn how to do something new, yourself.

Lion badger: just, so grounded. So stable. Probably one of the most stable sortings. You know your Right and Wrong and you're able to work at the Right to fix the Wrong. When well-spoken, you guys tend to have the energy of walking into a situation and serenely going "okay this is what's going on," and explain everything in a way that's really understandable. I aspire to have a mask like that someday.

Lion snake: you guys are so bright and vibrant and playful and passionate. You guys aren't sunshine in the way that a badger secondary is, but you are the sun, absolutely full of energy and life. Even when things aren't going well and you're in a low-state, there's still that thrum of fire pulsing underneath.

Bird lion: when you guys act, you tend to know why. You're able to explain it, and there's something about "I am charging into this wall until it breaks, and I will tell you why it makes sense" that is so comforting. You guys are the ones who hear a proverb about taking action, think it over, reword it, and then make it your own. As put by Susan Schorn (author of Smile at Strangers, and someone with major bird lion vibes):

Double bird: double birds, my beloved. I love the versatility that you guys bring to the table, your love of your passions, your obvious pride in your hoards, your eagerness to explain yourself and sometimes parts of your systems, and, yes, your mad-scientist-leaning curious/chaotic energies. Yes, you guys may not have the consistent groundedness of a badger secondary or the undertone of energy of a snake secondary, but you guys play to both better than most other sortings and the shift between them that you guys do can be felt so clearly and - even as a birdsec that probably does that to some degree, myself - it is magic.

Bird badger: kinda in the same vein as double lions - yall are able to decide to do a thing and just,,, work at it? It's like magic. I don't even get it. Also, your patience when doing something you're invested in is to die for. Literally how. How do you not lose interest. Teach me your ways.

Bird snake: anyone who's been on my blog long enough will know that I have a particular fondness for this sort. Like lion snakes, there's a thrum of energy underneath, but unlike lion snakes, it's less of an energy and more of a sense of the person, so to speak. It's like whatever way you're expressing yourself to us, no matter how twisty and mp snakey you're getting, the core of who you are is still felt, even if it's unnamable and impossible to pin down. And you guys are just,,, so observant, so thoughtful, so well-spoken when you choose to speak. When there's something I'm trying to work out, like a situation or a moral dilemma, you guys are almost always one of my first choices to go to. Because of all the things I said before and how they all compile into how you are when someone reaches out for that sort of help. (The bird primary having already done the work and being able to explain reasoning is also up there).

Badger lion: probably the sorting I'm least familiar with outside of fiction, honestly. But yall are probably the first ones ready to throw hands for someone. I respect both that and how vocally supportive you are of those around you.

Badger bird: yall are so passionate about the things you're into. I know that can be said for basically anyone and even more so for anyone with a bird secondary, but you guys light up like sunshine, and I can't help it, yall are adorable. Also the fact that almost everything that you collect is freely shared when needed. You guys have your hoards and you will use them to make life better for people and that is a threat (from you. You're threating to make everyone's lives better. I'd never threaten yall to make things better like that). You guys are the Prime Sorting for a "main character knows what's going to happen and will save Everyone" fix-it fic with your people-oriented primary and prep, plan, and tool-oriented secondary and not only is that satisfying to watch, it is also beautiful.

Double badger: when at your strongest, yall are like the classic dwarf cleric - a tanky damage sponge. If given enough time, you guys are able to get through basically everything, and it takes so, so long for you to get worn down in the first place. I have no clue how you guys do it.

Badger snake: when you're comfortable with your shifting and adapting are the epitome of gremlin "I will solve problems on purpose." Were you supposed to solve that problem? Nope! Did that stop you? Hell no! It is so much fun to watch you guys do your thing. I just wish you'd teach me how to do it XD

Snake lion: you guys are so, so consistent. You know who you are and you're there for those you love. The lack of face-changing and shifting makes it easier to get a sense of who you are and being around someone that you understand like that can be so comforting sometimes. Also, as @paint-the-ravenclaw said in her "top sexiest sortings" post: *poke* dork.

Snake bird: Respect. That's it, that's the biggest thing I respect about you guys: respect. You won't hesitate to help people, but if that person wants you to stay out of it and it's safe enough to allow that, then you guys respect those wishes better than I ever could. You go looking for information and try to find helpful resources to help your people, but only if they ask of it (or, at least, so long as they don't outright say no). On top of that, you guys are so loving and lovable. And your collections and tools are amazing. Another sorting that's wonderful to listen to the interests of.

Snake badger: soft gremlins who nobody suspects are gremlins until it's too late. And even then, we keep falling for it. You guys are also dependable and, whenever you have the tri-energy for it (mental/emotional/physical), you're always there to lend an ear and give emotional support, as well as to take care of those you love as best you can.

Double snake: yall are fun. You're feral and hilarious and compassionate and witty and I love it. You guys bring the best vibes for a good time. With yall it's greater chaos and digging into jokes until they've become staples. Amazing banter and getting blindsided by something I didn't see coming. On top of that, you guys can be very, very insightful and knowing that yall are there for us means so much.

#sortinghatchats #magpie speaks #long post #tw long post #posting without proofreading

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garsideofthemoon · 2 years

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Do you think the fact that so many people model bird and badger secondaries has to do with modern popular culture? I feel like knowledge (more being smart than actual knowledge, which the two don't always go together) and hard work are two highly emphasized parts of society nowadays. Like oh, if you want something work for it. You want success, be smart. Any secondary can be smart, I think Birds just tend to be the ones who that tends to come across the most.

(for context @wisteria-lodge asked other people in the shc community if they were willing to tackle some asks! For context I am a lion/bird with badgerpri and badgersec models)

I think it depends on what you mean by popular culture, anon. If you're referring to societal values then yes, in many parts of the world and sectors of society builtsecs are highly valued. I think this is partially because they feed into meritocratic narratives ('I got this because I worked the hardest' or 'I got this because I came up with the best tools/solution') and partially because they, like the skills that improv secs have, are valuable to communities (creating infrastructure, tools, etc). If you're an American like me the effects of the Puritan work ethic and American dream narratives also play a significant role in how builtsecs are viewed and valued. I do want to note that there are parts of society where improv secs are highly valued. For example in the business world elevator pitches, which play heavily into improvsec skillsets, are valued. 'Thinking on your feet' and improvising is an important part of quite a few disciplines and plays into a lot of 'soft skills' like networking.

If you're referring to pop culture (eg popular movies, tv shows, etc) then I think you can find media that touts every secondary.

I agree with you that any secondary can be smart! I think the Birdsec tendency to hoard and display shiny nuggets of information is what contributes to the 'birdsec = smart' idea.

#sortinghatchats #shc #wisteria-lodge #tagging that so anon finds this ask haha #built secondary #badger secondary #bird secondary

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wisteria-lodge · 3 years

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bird primary + snake secondary (bird model) OR bird secondary (snake model)

Your blog has been enjoyable regarding the Sorting Hat Chats! I've been trying to figure out my own sorting. In terms of primary - I would rank most likely from Bird>Snake>Lion>Badger. I do place a high level of loyalty and value for the people who I consider most important in my life like a Snake primary. I know there are some people who are more important to me than others [basically I don't have the Badger mindset]. However, I think I'm fundamentally guided by what I think makes sense and what is most logical like a Bird primary. I tend to get anxious when things aren't making sense but I work hard to dig out solutions from the madness.

Okay, that's sounding like Bird primary angst to me.

I am also focused on attaining towards an idealized world - something I have dreamt out for myself

I don't think English is your first language, so I don't want to read crazy-much into the word "ideal" - but that is something that I hear Birds talk about, the goal of an "ideal" world (at least for ourselves) that we could get to if we just made the flow charts work correctly.

basically goals that I hope to achieve some day and I take action to do my best to get there. I know ambition is mostly classified as Snake but from the way SHC defines the houses in primaries, I can honestly see any of the primaries being highly ambitious. Not sure.

Yeah, we've grown out of our parent system :)

On the whole - I see Bird or Snake being the best fit but I could be a Burned Lion given my idealism

I'm not seeing Burnt Lion. So far you've written about what *you* think and what *you* want (and that's a good thing.) Burnt Lions tend to go with ready-made external value systems. And be a lot more stressed :)

I consider my beliefs to be logical

The huge stressing of "logical" means you *like* Bird primaries at the very least. 'Logical' is associated with Birds, but it's also kind of a loaded term (because no one wants to say, "oh yes, I am Illogical.") Everyone's primary is logical... to them.

but I do follow my gut sometimes and it's often right.

The question is not 'do you follow your gut ever,' the question is 'would you still feel good about following your gut even if you weren't sure why you were feeling something.'

Secondary is tougher for me to decipher. I don't really know on this except that I think it would be cool to be a Snake secondary but not sure how likely that is for me.

So you like Snake secondaries. Very good.

I am the kind of person that works hard and is good at planning ahead for things. Badger secondary is a possibility because I am good at showing people that I am dependable/reliable particularly at work, basically the person that won't let you down.

So a Built (Bird + Badger) secondary, or a Built secondary model.

I place a lot of value on using my skills to make my way through life which seems Bird secondary. My tendency is to plan for contingencies and follow those plans to the best of my ability until it no longer makes sense.

Sounds pretty Bird.

But I also can improvise when needed and I know when something bothers me that my temptation is to act and charge which is more Lion secondary. A part of me has a belief that I am smart enough to adapt if needed but I do feel a lot more comfortable with having a detailed plan to help me with a situation rather than winging something.

Unfortunately there's not really enough for me to go on here. This could be an Improvisational secondary (and I'd go with Snake before Lion, because of the emphasis on *adaptation,* and the fact that you really like Snakes) with a Built (probably Bird) secondary model.

But this could also be a comfortable Bird secondary who is in the process of building a fun Snake model. Ultimately, that's going to be your call.

#sortinghatchats #wisteria sorts #sortme #birdpri #snakesec #birdsec

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wisteria-lodge · 3 years

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exploded bird primary (lion system → burnt badger system) + lion secondary (bird model)

Hello, you have a really interesting blog! It’s fascinating to read the process of you sorting someone. I was wondering if you could help me find my sorting.

I don’t know my primary OR my secondary. They might be burnt, but I think this is mostly a result of me overthinking and being shite with self-analysis. Which is a horrible combination.

I’ve found my best work is usually the result of me taking what someone else has done, ripping it apart, adding or removing parts as needed (usually all of them) and then making a cohesive Thing out of it. It’s how I’ve made projects, stories, art, etc.

What an interesting thing to say. Wanting something to start with something which you can then respond to is making me think Improvisational secondary. Snake or Lion?

The process of picking apart someone’s work/advice gives me an idea of what I want to make. Which is why I usually end up doing my work at the last minute, by begging everyone else for their work.

Oooh we’re leveraging the community. So a social secondary like Snake is still very possible, especially with that description of pulling something together last minute using pieces. Very improvisational. But I’m wondering if there’s going to be any Badger in your sorting. Maybe as a primary.

It’s also how I treat advice and suggestion (which annoys my sister a lot, heh). I listen to someone’s suggestions on how to act or react to some problem, and then decide what I want to do. It’s like I need a base to completely disregard. A signpost which tells me, ‘Going left looks like a decent idea’ so that I can decide for myself to go whether to go right or centre. The metaphor is somewhat nonsensical but it’s the best I’ve right now.

So I could read this as just being contrary (rebelling to rebel), or maybe being in a situation where you need to utilize negative indicators. It could be a way to bootstrap a Lion primary - get some outside advice, then see if you emotionally respond positively or negatively. But the fact that you depend so much on your community when deciding what to do makes me think an external primary - Badger or Bird.

Making a plan makes me feel secure, because ‘Finally! A direction to move in.’ However, I’ve never been able to follow any of the plans I have. I usually end up just doing stuff at the last minute when I can’t worry about other things. You know, when my head is too full with an overwhelming sense of ‘I have to do this right now!’ to get distracted. The plan’s just to get me started.

Oh this is executive dysfunction stuff. And not to armchair diagnose, which is super not ethical… but a LOT of neurodivergent people write into me, and a LOT of them have helpful bird secondary models that function as toys/coping techniques.

My go-to method for solving people-problems is to think of the things I want to get across, psyche myself up for the confrontation and just barge on with it. Just, do it. Yeet myself into the tense and undesirable situation and we’ll see what happens. It’s the only good method. The other two are ‘pretend this problem doesn’t exist’ and ‘ignore that person/those people forever’.

Super DUPER Lion secondary. There are two choices 1) Charge at the problem, see what happens 2) Do nothing.

It’s easy for me to fake my investment in things. I got into the Environment Club recently, and in the application form I remember writing about oil spills in a way that made it seem as though it was an issue I’ve been passionate about for a long time. It had only come to my attention when ‘Ocean on Fire in Mexican Waters’ became a headline. I was very proud of that one. While I won’t fake an opinion, I can and will control how passionate I appear about a thing. I am rather proud of this.

Still Lion. That is how Lions face-change - they can raise or lower their intensity.

Secondaries are easy to understand for me. The idea that there is a way of doing things that comes naturally to me is fairly plausible. Primaries on the other hand….they are murky as fuck for me. I always end up getting in tangles over it.

On one hand, it’s natural for a person to prioritise their loved ones and the issues that affect their people over other issues. On the other hand, this is the sort of mindset that stops us from caring about issues beyond our tiny sphere. The sort of things that makes us indifferent towards the suffering of those who are not a part of your group or one of your people. What is the correct mode of action here?

The way this is phrased, and even the way it’s framed as a search for the “correct” answer is already very Bird. I’m going to keep on using Sartre’s Loyalist vs Idealist example because it’s such a good one, but philosophers and moralists have been debating “objectively correct” morality for… a long time now.

Obviously, we can’t spend all our time caring about causes that don’t affect us. Not only will it make us laughing-stock it is also a foolish idea. A person’s priority, in my opinion, ought to be bettering their life and helping alleviate the problems that plague them and the people around them. Of course, it is every person’s right to choose what to care about, and to find what works for them, but in my opinion starting with what’s around will show maximum results and well, it just feels more right.

I think we have a Bird primary with a Badger-flavored system.

When I have to make an opinion, I first try to see if it’s something I can avoid. Seriously, having an opinion is so difficult. Socialising is easier than forming an opinion.

Oh ouch. I think it’s very possible that your bird might be a little bit… burnt. Or exploded. Specifically the frozen Chidi-style Exploded Bird, because how can you do *anything* if you don’t know *for sure* it’s objectively right.

I don’t have to make many moral decisions in my daily life, most of us don’t. I try to avoid passing judgements on topics I don’t know about or ones that appear too morally grey.

Primaries aren’t just about moral decisions. They’re also about things that you, you know. Want. The things that get you out of bed in the morning.

As a kid, I used to make snap judgments all the time and incessantly defend them in the face of opposition, but now it just feels foolhardy to do.

That’s definitely your stubborn Lion secondary combining with an Idealist primary. Immature Glory Hound Lion or Black-and-White Bird.

Not to mention having to change my opinion after realising that I made a mistake (which happens often) is really fucking embarrassing, even if it’s something I’m doing in private.

I mean, no one LIKES being wrong. But the choice of the word “embarrassing” is skewing me more Bird. I’d expect a Lion to say something like making a mistake is “miserable” or “stressful” or “disorientating.”

And not changing my opinion when confronted with new information makes me feel pathetic.

Yeah. Bird.

There’s also the reality of ever pervasive fake news and showing + wording things in a light favourable to the people funding the news. I have zero trust in any of the media outlets I have around me (paranoia ftw!).

We have an Exploded Bird. No wonder you don’t like having opinions on things. You’ve cut off your ability to take in new information.

The same goes for what other people tell me, including my family. While I want to believe them (my family), they’re dead wrong about something I believe in with all my heart. So, what’s to say that they couldn’t be wrong about other things too?

Nobody can be right all the time. It sucks.

I love my family, and I’ll love them even if they disown me once I come out (I’m bisexual and they’re queerphobic).

I think it must be really, really brutal to have a loud lion secondary and also have to stay in the closet for an extended period of time.

As long as their mistreatment will be limited to throwing me out of the family, I won’t stop caring about them. They’re my family. They would have to become pretty terrible people for me to cut off ties with them.

So you’ve basically given me a set-up where you don’t feel able to have an opinion on anything, apart from a sort of generalized Badger worldview, and then you hit me with something as intensely loyalist as this? Is there a really Burnt Badger (or even really burnt Snake) underneath the Bird? Or is this a Loyalist talking point/model that you’ve picked up somewhere? Or is your Badger system just like, super intense? (also, is it just me, but have you kicked yourself out of your own system?)

This attitude was the one I used to have with my friends. Until I realised that friendship doesn’t work out for me for some reason. I’m simply grateful for company now. I only show people the degree of care that I feel they will reciprocate. I don’t want to be taken advantage of by people whom I choose to become close to.

This is sounding intensely Burnt Badger? Like you want a community, but communities don’t feel safe.

A lot of Shonen anime at an impressionable age has left me with high standards for friendships.

… or maybe you’ve got Prince Charming Syndrome, only with friendships.

If one of my family did or said something that I disagreed with and which granted them public condemnation, would I stand by them or condemn them? I would do both. I wouldn’t pretend to agree with what they said (doing that would make me feel horrible) but I would stand by them.

Lion secondary. Some kind of Loyalist *something* primary.

I will never lie about my opinions. I don’t care what punishment I get. I’ll either make it really obvious that I don’t agree with the majority opinion, make myself scarce or just outright argue about it.

… because you’re a Lion secondary.

I can’t lie without feeling guilty. It’s a hassle really, but what can one do? I’ve settled on becoming more authentic and truthful. I don’t want to hurt people with my actions or words. Apparently, I need to show my anger (per my therapist) but how can I do that without crossing any lines? Without making people feel bad?

You’ve probably heard this from your therapist, but sometimes people are just going to find you unpleasant. It’s inevitable, and it’s ultimately not that big of a deal. In the end, everybody is responsible for their *own* emotional well-being.

What if I was wrong for no reason?

… and there’s that exploded Bird primary coming back.

If something has hurt me, I do my level best to never do it to other people. Basically, ‘not hurting others’ is a pretty big rule in my book. It’s one I’ll bend sometimes, but not without reason. After all, a rule that doesn’t have exceptions is either something really obvious (‘no murder’) or something incredibly vague (‘always do good things’).

bird bird bird bird bird

As a kid, I was really power/fame-hungry. Now, I just want to feel secure, without second-guessing myself and my actions. Massive priority shift. Kid me didn’t really think about stuff beyond wanting to be the most powerful person on Earth. I wish I could go back to that.

… do you really though? :) But it is interesting that young you sounds so much like a Glory Hound Lion. I wonder if your Badger-flavored system used to be a lot more Lion-flavored, or if this is maybe a side effect of having a really loud Lion secondary.

I wish I could do things that have a tangible effect on the state of affairs. I wish I could hand-wave the world’s problems away. I wish, at the very least, I had a book telling me what to do, and I how to do it.

THE BOOK FANTASY. You are like the fifth person who has written in with “I wish I had a book that told me what to do.” It’s always in exactly those words too. This seems to be a VERY common Bird primary fantasy.

Although on second thought, I would probably read the book and cherry-pick advice that makes sense to me. And that’s if I even believed the book in the first-place.

… and then the Exploded element of your Bird kicks in.

……..So, I suppose that’s about it. It feels like it’s all over the place, and at more than one place I’ve tmi’d while at the same time not giving enough information. Sigh. I hope though, that it’s enough to sort me with. I would be grateful if you would do so. Either way, thank you for taking the time to read this.

Hmmm. Well, your secondary is pretty straightforward. Lion, with a Bird model. And at the moment your Lion is pretty stressed out, because you’re in an environment where you do not feel able to be truthful and authentic. Primary is harder. Bird for sure, and I think you had a Lion-looking system when you were younger, which you sort of miss. Because at the moment… you’ve put together like a *Burnt Badger* system? Like, community is the ultimate good, but also impossible for you, personally? Trusting the community is impossible, to the degree that even trusting any *information* that gets to you is also impossible? Sorry friend. That sounds brutal. I’m glad you’re taking care of yourself, and I hope you find a better community soon.

#sortinghatchats #sortme #wisteria sorts #birdpri #lion secondary #badger primary vs bird primary #birdsec model #lionsec #bird lion #philosophy stuff

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wisteria-lodge · 3 years

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badger primary + very burnt lion secondary (bird model)

Hi, I’m a Badger primary and stuck between Lion and Snake secondary. I model Bird and Badger over whatever my (probably pretty burnt) secondary is. Would you mind helping me figure it out?

As a kid, I remember being a total joker in class. I thought it was really funny to trick my friends. I got everyone to start chanting at the teacher once. I’d do something daring (for a first grader) like look up “sex” in the dictionary. It basically just said gender and I was confused about what all the fuss was 🤦🏻‍♀️.

Definitely see why you’re thinking Improvisational secondary. One of the old-school SHC bits of wisdom is that when proud rule-breaking is a personality trait, that’s usually the sign of a Lion secondary.

My mom didn’t want me reading all night so I hid flashlights under my bed and would pretend to sleep if she checked on me. I’d lie and would only feel bad about it if threatened with consequences. If I got in trouble, I’d lie or pretend I didn’t know what I’d been doing.

But I could also see Snake. Being very proud of your ability to lie or pretend is very Snake to me.

In middle school, my learning disability really began to show and I started having anxiety and possibly PTSD after 9/11. (I’m from NY). That’s when the Bird model kicked in.

As it does.

People at my new school didn’t get my humor and took my trolling literally and it was really uncomfortable. Honestly middle school sucked and most of what I remember is just snobby, awful social stuff.

I’m definitely getting Lion secondary here. You are YOU, it’s very important that you be you, and the problem is that other people don’t get you. Snake secondaries aren’t so binary.

Oh I did manage to get a teammate’s cell phone number and pranked them. And I hacked into someone’s AIM account. And one time I got in a fist fight with someone on a different team of mine and then we were best friends. Which is weird, looking back.

awww Lion secondaries making friends :D

High school was really hard because I had a really hard time with the schoolwork (learning disability was still undiagnosed) and with finding good friends. I got in trouble a few times for offending people by repeating things I didn’t know were offensive, I dressed up as someone kinda controversial for Halloween which is honestly still one of the highlights of my high school experience. I tricked this creepy guy who wouldn’t leave me alone and embarrassed him in front of the whole school. But wouldn’t ever insult someone to their face on purpose unless I completely lost my temper.

Obviously you can have a hot temper and not be a Lion secondary… but I’m already skewing in that direction, and everything you’re saying here is supporting it. Kind of getting a kick out of offending people (or making them uncomfortable) is VERY Lion secondary.

I joined the Political Union club and didn’t really debate because I’m terrible at it.

Lion secondaries tend to be pretty bad at formal debate. That’s more a built secondary thing. Great at giving speeches, though :)

I just watched everyone argue and trolled people. I remember one meeting, people started throwing books at each other and it was amazing. That “agent of chaos” answer on the quiz is me haha.

The “agent of chaos” answer is the Lion secondary answer.

I knew the perfect way to get this one teacher to go off on a tangent about the Soviet Union for the entire lesson. I couldn’t keep up with the schoolwork so I’d BS a lot of it and manage to get by. Participation was key to your grade so I’d read just enough to discuss parts of it and then just make throwaway funny comments and ask good questions to beef up my contributions.

I’d say that gaming the system in this particular way (which I completely support) actually sounds like you Bird secondary model. Which makes sense, if the *purpose* of that model is to help you out in an academic setting.

I think I burned after a traumatic event at the end of my senior year. I started modeling Badger secondary hard. Basically just be sweet and helpful and everything will be fine, right? When that did not, in fact, make everything be fine, I pulled out the manipulation to make damn sure people were on my side.

I’m interested in what you mean by “manipulation.” Because while that’s normally a Snake secondary word, I’m not getting Snake Secondary from you. I suspect you may actually parse your Bird secondary as “manipulation,” which is sort of unusual.

I did still troll sometimes, but I haven’t felt playful and fun in so long. I’ve been really depressed over the last few years about some serious medical problems that can’t really be resolved. I just feel flat like a car stuck in park.

Oh ouch. Yeah, that’s a burnt secondary all right.

I’m scared of failing. I’m scared people won’t like me or that I’ll get in trouble. I don’t have the energy to lie convincingly or put on a show but I also don’t feel safe enough to be blunt. I’m reluctantly forcing myself to be diplomatic while screaming inside.

This is portrait of a Burnt Lion secondary. You’re afraid of failing, but failing is necessary and important to Lions. It’s how they change direction. “Being yourself” had gotten you into trouble and made some people not like you, so you’re scared about going there again. You want to be blunt, but it’s too scary. Instead you’re being diplomatic and putting on a show, both things you define as “lying” (very Lion secondary) but it’s incredibly energy consuming.

I don’t know how to go back to how I was. (I am trying to find a good therapist but it’s hard to find one who specializes in all the things I need, not to mention a good fit personality-wise). When I’m not Like This, I can be really charming. I miss it.

Well, a therapist is the first step. I guess my tiny little piece of advice in the meantime, is find a place in your life where you *can* use your lion again. Make that place as tiny and as low-stakes as you need to. Maybe you have an anonymous blog where you shit-post. Maybe you bring out your Lion for just one person. Maybe go to a weekend convention - if it’s three days with people you never see again, who cares if you get in trouble or offend something. Check out the SHC discord server, and see if any of the other burnt Lionsecs have tips. I know Lions are very all-or-nothing, but I’m a Badger. Baby steps are steps.

#sortinghatchats #sortme #wisteria sorts #lion secondary #burnt lion seconday #birdsec model #lionsec #lion vs snake secondary

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