#i really do not like getting involved into discourse but tbh this sort of mess is something that needs to be talked about | Explore Tumblr Posts and Blogs

aroaceacacia · 3 years

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yeah 2019 was. a time. as someone who was unfortunately caught right in the crossfire of the discourse over that fic (we'd made friends with the author because woah! cool crossover with the old mcrp we liked!) it was nightmarish and we. may have been kind of an asshole as a result of how much nonsense got tossed our friend's way.

that and, uh, 2019 hcblr was not kind to systems. i think there's still a little bit of exclusionism around but that's not quite the same thing as a relative BNF at the time literally pretending to be friends with someone in order to make fun of them for having introjects behind their back.

will absolutely admit to being kind of a bitter fuck and not helping the discourse die down, but also we were pretty close to the mess so it was kind of a hell. it's really weird being able to just Exist now without having to worry about basically intensely policing every single aspect of our writing; still getting used to that tbh!

it's good things have changed. if someone tries to bring back the nonsense we Will scream. --solar/betweenlands

god yeah. there was a Lot of like... policing, just in general, but weirdly in particular toward systems.

I think the hermitblr conflict is unique among some major fandom discourses because we were such a small community - everybody has a vague idea of who most people are, and everyone is a friend of a friend. I'm sure that encouraged a lot of the side-taking/factions that arose at that time, and I'm sure it had an effect on making things more vicious/intense. (With that in mind, I think I only really managed to stay out of the discourse the way I did because I didnt have any friends in hermitblr at the time - i was relatively isolated until January/ May.)

I think its increasingly clear that the conflict in 2019 had a MASSIVE impact on the people directly involved and those adjacent to it; those adjacent people extends to the entire community.

A friend of mine has pointed out that even for those who werent present, the conflict has become almost like a "cultural trauma" - paraphrasing Jeffrey C Alexander, cultural trauma is the experience of a collective that has been through some kind of hell and feel that their collective identity and experience has been fundamentally changed/shaped by that negative event. And we see that in some ways, in a small scale - people who understand 2019 was bad but not the shape of it, the way we conduct ourselves and our community concepts of courtesy being literally formed and forced into our minds by the sort of solutions Cleo provided for us.

I'm rambling, but. Solar, you're understandable; it was a shitty time and things get messy because we're people. Thanks for giving your perspective (is it weird to say that I've been thinking of you all throughout some of these conversations? lol). I hope you're doing better now <3

#asks #long post #discourse #2019 talk #bearsleuth

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girlslovebugs · 4 years

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kevin and andrew’s deal

good morning here’s my expanded explanation of why i personally think andrew’s deal with kevin only applied to protection from the moriyamas (all under the cut because i’m tired of this discourse too man) tbh looking through again it IS more nuanced than i originally thought but my original claim is still really the only thing that makes sense and here’s why why

for starters, i want to analyze how andrew protects kevin. the first time we see andrew doing something in that general capacity is the columbia drugging. andrew sees neil’s stalker binder and, reasonably, assumes that he is a moriyama pawn trying to hurt kevin/bring kevin back. so andrew plans to 1) incapacitate neil 2) interrogate neil and 3) if necessary, get rid of neil. the next time is when riko confronts neil and kevin after kathy’s show. andrew uses himself as a distraction(opening his arms, greeting riko, positioning himself between riko and neil) while neil and kevin escape. from these two instances, it seems that when andrew thinks the stakes are high he’ll try to get the situation under control and kevin safe as soon as he can. but tbh this doesn’t matter unless u want me to really go in depth as to why i don’t think the deal was complete and total protection but tldr; this IS what i’d consider protecting kevin. compared to this, punching someone hours after they punch kevin is just performative (but more on the matt counterargument at the bottom). anyways, onto the two main quotes that i think imply my main point!

"Don't worry," Nicky said, with a failed attempt at cheer. "Andrew will protect you."

Kevin flicked him a horrified look. "These are the Moriyamas, Nicky. This is not Riko and the master; this is not Neil's father. Andrew can't—" (TKM 286-287).

this ones pretty self explanatory imo: kevin lists off who andrew promised to protect him and neil from and notice how “anybody who might ever give kevin shit” aren’t on the list. andrew knew from the start that he couldn’t protect kevin from the moriyamas who would, by definition, be included if andrew’s protection extended to everyone who might want to hurt kevin.

Neil guessed he meant their more optimistic teammates. "You're going to have to come up with something of your own to hold onto. I'm safe, Kevin doesn't need your protection anymore, Nicky's going back to Erik eventually, and Aaron's got Katelyn. What are you going to live for if you're not playing sheepdog for us?" (TKM 342).

this one happens after kevin, neil, and jean are freed from the moriyamas after promising 80% of their pro salaries to them. the ravens are no longer kevin’s problem, therefore andrew no longer needs to protect him. imo if andrew was offering kevin complete protection, andrew being free of the moriyamas wouldn’t be cause for termination because there would still be rabid ravens fans, foxes infighting (next year),

now, re: punching matt, because i saw someone use it as proof that the promise wasn’t just for the ravens/riko/tetsuji

i don’t want to tag them in case they get annoyed but @/alltheshadesofamber pretty much hit the nail right on the head with this one. andrew doesn’t do revenge therefore punching matt AFTER matt had already punched kevin and kevin was no longer in danger would have been, yes, revenge. so, unless he’s a big fat giant liar, andrew punched matt for the same reason he plans on killing proust: because he said he would.

"Revenge is a motivator only for the weak-willed," Andrew said.

"If you believed that you wouldn't be planning how to kill Proust." ... "This is not revenge," Andrew said. "I warned him what I would do to him if he touched me. This is me keeping my word " (TKM 135).

i’d also like to bring up this comment from the foxhole court:

“It took only one wrong word to turn [Kevin and Seth’s] arguments into physical brawls. The fighting hit a peak on Wednesday afternoon when Andrew left practice early for his weekly therapy session. The second he vanished, Seth went for Kevin with fists flying” (122-123).

while it was, indeed, mentioned that seth waited until andrew was gone to fight kevin, i’m going to go ahead and assume that this was out of self preservation in case andrew (who was very drugged and very violent at the time) intended to retaliate. remember, the foxes are completely in the dark about what andrew and kevin’s deal actually is. but there’s no mention afterwards of andrew attacking seth in kevin’s honor. if we’re going to assume that andrew punching matt was revenge, then andrew not attacking seth afterwards would be a violation of his and kevin’s deal in the first book already. however, andrew doesn’t get involved in kevin and seth’s feud which also leads me to believe that it was andrew upholding a different promise that still didn’t include andrew as someone he’d protect kevin from. i’m not going to go as far as to say that andrew never threatened violence if any of the other foxes were to attack kevin, because obviously he made some sort of promise that would ‘justify’ punching matt, but it wouldn’t include andrew.

also exy is an incredibly violent sport and andrew would probably, like, get kicked out of the league trying to protect kevin from anybody who could possibly harm him physically lol

this did end up being shorter than i anticipated because it’s like 8pm here and i have homework but i just wanted 2 post it in case i need it as a point of reference at any point anyways how fucked is it that andrew messes up stores on purpose like man that’s the real throwaway line discourse we should be talking about like remember when he just??? took clothes off the hangers and left them on the floor??? and threw the hangers at nicky???

#aftg #aftg meta #andreil #andrew minyard #tfc

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nate0u0 · 3 years

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I’ve seen others say that even if you do do that, publicly discussing/creating media for it is still wrong. I’ve seen yet others say that no matter what media they consume, as long as they’re doing active work irl for the communities that could be harmed by it, while also acknowledging its flaws fully, they don’t care if people consume and create for it. So with all of those quite different opinions in mind, I really have no idea what to think. It makes me feel dumb, honestly.

Ah! Sorry! I'm just seeing this now! I just responded to your earlier ask without seeing this! My bad X_X.

I mean, I get it. Online discourse can be super overwhelming, but I really wouldn't worry about it! One mentality that I think can help with processing everything is just to realize that like, everyone online are strangers to each other. Sometimes people will just get pissed off by something or be in a bad mood or say something hyperbolic and things just spiral from there. I think, even with the ugliest discrouse, a lot of the time, people aren't like, actively condemning everything about another person. Sometimes it's as simple as "you are a stranger to me and based on the little I have learned about you, I don't trust that spending part of my finite existence on this planet in your company will be pleasant." TBH, it's just kind of like living in the city, except you're sort of trained to take everything more personally so it feels a lot worse and more overwhelming. Sometimes discourse is really as simple as like, somebody swerves in traffic and is yelled at for it, but like they were super overworked and spilled coffee on themselves, but both parties are driving and not crashing is a more effective use of energy than considering all the nuances of the other person's situation, so they yell at each other and go their separate ways and never see each other again, even though they could have theoretically come to an understanding in a perfect world with infinite time but they only see each other for a few seconds and maybe they eventually calm down or the other person is just "that asshole" to them for the rest of their lives, but presumably they both understand on some level that the other person is someone with a rich and separate personal life. It's just that like, on social media, all of these interactions come with the expectation of being personal and like, the evidence of that interaction is there forever and other people get involved and it's a whole mess X_X

Basically, what I'm saying is, don't feel dumb! It's alright to feel overwhelmed reading things on the internet and trying to find the right way to look at things, but make sure to always keep in mind that these people (INCLUDING ME BTW!!!) are total strangers, and make sure you have people who you can talk to on a personal level if you need to figure things out.

#ask

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atollon · 7 years

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i k q

I. Has tumblr caused you to stop liking any fandoms, if so, which and why?Because my tumblr dashboard is my own personal echo chamber, I follow people that rarely get involved in fandom discourse of any sort, so I don’t usually get to see the nasty sides of fandoms. recently a bunch of Adults (capitalized because important to note) have been shitting on steven universe (a Kids show for Kids) because of inconsistent character design, and that’s something I’d love to avoid, so that’s made me dislike that side of the su fandom. and there HAS been previous drama in su..

K. How do you feel about the other people in your current fandom(s).Currently, my main fandom is star wars (heh) and I think the star wars fandom is one of the largest, due to age of the franchise and its popularity. and honestly? the star wars fandom is such a mess. Again, because my tumblr dashboard is my own personal echo chamber of my mistakes and poor choices, I follow blogs that tend to not get involved in The Discourse (or at least get involved from a point of view that I support), but I do occasionally look for more blogs to follow, and 1 out of 2 blogs stans Patricide, ships hux and Patricide, and/or Patricide and rey. simply put, not my cup of tea and not the cup of tea of many other people. BUT the people I DO follow for star wars content (mutuals included) are wonderful and that’s exactly why I follow them.

Q. A ship you’ve abandoned and why.Can’t really remember anything I’ve stopped shipping, tbh. I don’t really have that many ships that I read fanfic for (gives me the ability to read 70k fics unhindered) and I do tend to, yknow, at least Attempt sage choices in regard to choosing to ship them…the only one I can think of is merlot (reaaaaaallyyyy old, haven’t seen anything about it in two years, kingsman fandom, you can honestly look it up if you want) and that’s because roxy is a lesbian and I was a fool for not seeing it sooner.

#asks

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