#kind of like SEASON 1 JON the obnoxious bastard!!!!!!! | Explore Tumblr Posts and Blogs

soveryanon · 4 years

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Reviewing time for MAG167!

- I did appreciate a loooot that little “break” to deal with (past) interpersonal problems and how they intertwined with the Fears. Characters-of-the-day in this season have been feeling mostly interchangeable since they’re rewritten/decontextualised from their past lives, and the narration covering multiple individual nightmares doesn’t really help, so… It felt safer and more comforting to go back to characters being themselves, even when that also ended miserably?

- I got super excited on first listen because !! New names!! New random tiny tidbits of lore regarding the past of the Institute! Pre-Gertrude era!

(MAG167) ARCHIVIST: “When she first joined the Archives, she took the place of a man named Angus Stacey, whose face was torn from his skull by a creature of masks and smiles. Gertrude had thought of it as “The Grinning Wheel”, and it was one of the first things to fall at the hands of the Institute’s new avenger. Appropriately enough, Gertrude used fire. […] Angus Stacey had, in the long tradition of Institute Archivists, been a disappointment to the man whose eyes then sat in the smirking face of one ‘Director Richard Mendelson’. Angus had been too keen to learn, too ambitious in his academic legacy. He had had grand plans to revise Smirke’s Fourteen and, in trying to do so, burned through his resources; his luck; and ultimately all but one of his assistants. When Gertrude was appointed to the role, there was a single survivor left in the Archives: a woman by the name of Fiona Law.”

So:

* Angus Stacey was the previous Archivist, killed by a creature of The Stranger… which, aouch (Gertrude wasn’t killed by one, but had spent a good amount of time thinking about their ritual before her death, didn’t feel like she was putting out as much energy against The Dark honestly? And Nikola wore her skin during The Unknowing. The Stranger was all around there at the beginning and at the end, uh…).

* Interestingly, Angus was aware of Smirke’s taxonomy, and so was Gertrude at least towards the end of her life (since Gerry mentioned that he liked to use his classification in MAG111); I wonder if there used to be documents about it in the Archives, potentially by Smirke himself, before Jonah possibly hid them away to ensure that Jon would be kept in the dark about it…? (It’s also possible that such documents exist and Jon didn’t have the time to stumble upon them: he’s been Head Archivist for only three years).

* OOFT that the Archivist pre-pre-Jon wanted to “revise” Smirke’s classification… which highlights, once again, that that classification was subjective and an interpretation, but not something set in stone – despite what Smirke was attempting to do with his architecture.

* Confirmation that Gertrude knew another one of Jonah’s identities when she began to work in the Archives! James Wright was Head from 1973 to 1996, so that had always been a possibility. When Elias commented about how “Fifty years is a long time! [CHUCKLE] End of an era.” in MAG158, it really wasn’t an exaggeration. Gertrude lived through three of his identities.

- I’m really glad to know that, since Jonah used to be a “Richard Mendelson”… his nickname must have been “Dick”.

As Jon, master of redundancy, said in MAG096: “Cocky prick.”

(My only regret is that Tim didn’t live enough to know that. He would have made Elias’s life hell about “Dick” TT__TT)

- Laughing very hard that Jonah’s main characteristic is definitely… his way of smiling.

(MAG092) ELIAS: Now, you have something to ask me? BASIRA: Go for it. DAISY: Before I strangle the grinning bastard.

(MAG108) PETER: I have a meeting with him today. He suggested… I’m sure he’s watching from his office, grinning from ear to ear.

(MAG167) ARCHIVIST: “Angus Stacey had, in the long tradition of Institute Archivists, been a disappointment to the man whose eyes then sat in the smirking face of one ‘Director Richard Mendelson’.”

HOW the heck did he manage to attract and to give that aura of seriousness to his peers back in the 18th century? Is it a case of arrogance being perceived as confidence back then, when it’s just making Jonah obnoxious and insufferable nowadays? (It’s also SUPER FUNNY that Elias was, at the beginning, identified as kind of… bland and unremarkable, passive, a bit lazy, thanks-for-nothing-dude? While, once he reveals himself, it seems to go hand-in-hand with grinning/smirking faces. Gods. Basira, you should have punched him some more.)

- I recognised the name “Fiona Law” on the spot, since MAG029 was one of the first episodes to mention past details of the Institute, with the Elias Timeline Problem! Statement of Nathaniel Thorp, left on June 4th 1972:

(MAG029) ARCHIVIST: Fiona Law, the research assistant who took the statement, passed away in 2003 from complications following a liver transplant, and with two exceptions no-one else working for the Institute at the time is still employed here. Gertrude Robinson was there, of course, but we can’t exactly ask her, and Elias was working as a filing clerk at the time. I followed up with him, and he does remember there being something of a commotion around that time about someone self-harming while giving a statement – rumours said they’d cut off their finger or something – but he wasn’t directly involved and didn’t know much more about it.

Regarding “Elias”, since he’s meant to sound “middle-aged” (and not “old”): I’m still choosing to assume that MAG049’s information was correct, and that Jonah slipped up and mentioned a time when James Wright was working as a filing clerk, since he would become Head of the Institute the following year and that’s probably when Jonah took his body. The strange thing is still that Jon just accepted without a question that Elias was 20+ years older than he looked, but eh.

The HILARIOUS and accurate detail is that, regarding Fiona’s tendency to pass out when in danger?

(MAG167) ARCHIVIST: “Fiona was the most fascinating combination of curiosity and cowardice, pushing forward and forward into the unknown, until the very first moment of threat… crystallised. And then she was away. Of course, retreat is not always possible in such a line of business, and when that proved to be the case, there was a single trait which Fiona possessed that saw her surviving encounters which had killed far braver souls than her. Because when she was pushed to the very limits of her terror, Fiona Law… would faint. And while there are those things in the dark that would kill you as you slept, most get no real delight from it, unless you are awake enough to know what is happening. And so, through cowardice and unconsciousness, Fiona had survived an entire generation of Archivist.”

It may have been A Thing that happened in MAG029!

(MAG029, Nathaniel Thorp) “The end, I suppose. Thank you for indulging me, you’ve been very patient. I’m well aware I came in to tell you my own story, and instead have rattled off some old folktale, which you’ve dutifully taken down. I do feel now, though, that I’m at a place where I can tell you of myself. But for one final bit of context, I need you to watch this. Pay attention.”

ARCHIVIST: Archivist’s note: After this point the rest of the page is covered in what appears to be a large bloodstain. The statement resumes on the page afterwards, in a somewhat shakier hand.

“Apologies for that. A bit dramatic I know, but I always feel a demonstration is best in these situations.”

She might have passed out and then resumed taking the statement when she woke up x”)

- Sarah Carpenter took me a few more seconds on first listen, but given that Paul McKenzie had been put back on the foreground with MAG146, the name still quickly rang a bell (statement given on August 24th 2003):

(MAG027) ARCHIVIST: When this was originally logged, apparently we did send a then-member of the research staff, one Sarah Carpenter, to take some readings of the house. Apparently she felt there was little enough danger to justify an overnight vigil at the place, but like everyone else in Mr. McKenzie’s tale, she encountered no strangeness or intruders on the upstairs landing, or in any other part of the building. […] The only other thing that stands out from this as strange is that Sarah Carpenter, the researcher originally sent to look into this back in 2003, took some rather detailed photographs of the interior and layout of the house. Looking through them now, it strikes me that the bedroom door, to which Mr. McKenzie refers so often, does not appear to have a keyhole, or any sort of lock.

“Research staff” (Fiona was also identified as a “research assistant” in season 1) but, given that Jon didn’t even know that Gertrude used to have assistants by MAG080, it’s likely that the data about (past) Archives staff is… hard to get / hidden a bit.

HEAVY SOB IN GERTRUDE/AGNES that the thing Gertrude saw in Sarah was her “fire”:

(MAG167) ARCHIVIST: “Eric was replaced by another assistant, not so young as Michael, and hardened with some encounters of her own. She was eager to prove herself, and exactly the sort of person to intrigue the ageing Emma. There was a fire to Sarah Carpenter, perhaps the one which led to Gertrude hiring her, and Emma’s curiosity ignited once again, this time keen to find out exactly what it would take to break this brave investigator of the unknown.”

Like, wow, Gertrude, please, you had a type.

- I love how, with just tiny brushes, it really felt like Emma-Eric-Fiona-Gertrude were indeed once upon a time a team, with their own dynamic?

It gave me season 1 flashbacks, with Tim&Sasha commenting a lot about Martin being jumpy, Jon groaning about Tim’s April Fools Prank, etc. Own team with its own flavour.

It also reminds me that Jon had mentioned that some files were in better order:

(MAG060) ARCHIVIST: The mid-to-late 20th century seems marginally better filed than most of the archives, so we haven’t seen as many rogue statements cropping up from that period.

So: Emma-Eric-Fiona-Gertrude used… to do the work, back then, probably? Eric, at least, had the qualifications.

- I was really hoping that we would learn about “Emma” since Eric had mentioned her, Jonny had announced in the season 4 Q&A that we would:

(MAG154) ERIC: You know, you were never actually that nice to me when I worked for you, Gertrude. Not like Michael, or Emma.

But WOW, I. wasn’t expecting her to be that bad. It’s really strange, because for the first half of the statement, I thought that Emma was the quintessence of Beholding? Scheming bad things to experiment and observe them from afar? And turns out she was going Web?!

(MAG167) ARCHIVIST: “But Emma had a sickness. As much as she might have despised the ageing Fiona, it was the same one that plagued her: curiosity. That desperate, grasping need to know. […] The experiments were simple enough. When a statement was close enough, and real enough that finding its source seemed a possibility, Emma would volunteer herself and Fiona to investigate it. […] Once out near danger, Fiona would always find herself… ever-so-slightly ahead; always seeming to be inexplicably the first through the door. And more often than not, it would close behind her. By the end, the poor woman genuinely believed spontaneously locking doors were a tell-tale sign of the supernatural. Emma would do her best to observe from safety, making notes, only retrieving the often unconscious Fiona when the danger passed. She watched, as her poor guinea pig stumbled through a maze of whispering grubs; she timed the intervals at which Fiona emerged from a hungry fog; and recorded her barely escaping the Sandman, who came to take her eyes. Poor Fiona never suspected a thing. […] When Emma came to tell Gertrude what had happened, she found the first of the cobwebs in her hair, the ones she would wash from it every morning for the rest of her life. And Gertrude mourned the first of many losses, and did not suspect the truth. […] And all through it, Gertrude could not see what was happening. And certainly the Spider smoothed things, elided questions, wiped away evidence, but it barely had to. Far better to feed Gertrude a steady string of plans to foil, and rituals to derail. […] When Emma Harvey awoke to the searing heat, she knew she was already dead. As the fire took her, and left her flesh running off her bones like oil, all she willed was not to give it the satisfaction of being afraid.”

* Down to the detail of Gertrude dealing with it with fire, when it’s been highlighted by The Lightless Flame that The Web is vulnerable to it (Eugene’s statement in MAG139, Agnes against Fielding at Hill Top Road, the spiderwebs burning in Jack Barnabas’s flat when Agnes was waiting for him).

* It’s interesting that Emma didn’t seem to be aware that she was going Web-y? Or, at least, had no particular devotion towards The Web as a concept, and felt like she was simply doing her stuff – like she got involved with the Fears, and they twisted natural traits into something terrible. Or is it that The Web was using her and hollowing her out without her being aware?

* We know that Raymond Fielding’s house burned on Hill Top Road around 1974, and that Annabelle was “created” (shortly?) before November 2010. There was a gap in Web avatars/activity in that time, potentially filled by Neil Lagorio (culminating with Annabelle visiting him in 2012). But Emma’s activity does coincide nicely in-between Fielding and Annabelle – was the Web focusing on her in that time, until the tree got uprooted at Hill Top Road?

* It was already a surprise in MAG145 to learn that The Web had been active in the Archives during Gertrude’s youth (it didn’t arrive there with Jon and Neil Lagorio’s original cuts), I’m even more surprised to learn that it had rooted itself this deep and so close to Gertrude back then. It couldn’t have been closer to an Archivist than by touching an assistant! (Well. Or by touching/marking/digging its roots into an actual Archivist. *squint at Jon*)

* Emma really reminded me of Leitner experimenting on his assistants, and of Annabelle’s creation? It’s interesting that “arts/stories” and “experiments (on humans)” seem to be the two main Web-related activities. It’s also interesting that Emma’s experiments… led to Fiona and Sarah being touched by multiple Fears (and just barely escaping them), as if prepping the modus operandi for Jon?

* I’m still REALLY surprised that Emma didn’t turn out to be the Quintessence of Beholding budding associates; Webholding…?

* … My main question being: if Emma turned out to be Web, HOW COME Jonah Magnus is officially of the Beholding. I MEAN.

(MAG092) ELIAS: Jonah Magnus did leave him in that place, Jon. He got the letter, oh yes, and was on good terms with Mordechai Lukas. He could have interceded, perhaps even saved him, but he did not. And it was not out of malice, or because he lacked affection for Barnabas Bennett: he retrieved those bones sadly enough when the time came. Bones that you can still find in my office, if you know where to look. No, it was because he was curious. Because he had to know, to watch and see it all. That’s what this place is, Jon, never forget it.

(MAG160, Jonah Magnus) “When Smirke first gathered our little band – Lukas, Scott and the rest – to discuss and hypothesise on the nature of the things he had learned from Rayner… I felt what I believe we all felt: curiosity, and fear.”

Down to the “curiosity”?? Sacrificing people just to see what would happen??? That’s textbook what he did??? (But then, I’m REALLY not sure that part of Elias’s head hasn’t been filled with cobwebs for a loooooong time.)

- I’m gonna laugh for a looong time that Elias gracefully allowed murder as long as it didn’t take place within the Archives.

(MAG167) ARCHIVIST: “It was a trivial matter to convince the man who now watched from the skull of Elias Bouchard to allow it, so long as the deed did not take place within the Archives itself. But it didn’t need to. An employee’s home address is a simple thing to acquire.”

Too much paperwork to fill? Or afraid of fire in the Archives? (I was surprised that he allowed it in the first place, because… what were his feelings towards Emma? Loving that little monster? Annoyed that this little shit was killing off employees and that he had to work on the cover-ups? Frustrated that The Web had invited itself within his Institute? Irritated that their methods looked so alike? With MAG145/MAG158, I had gotten the feeling that Jonah might have tried to smooth over his relationship with Gertrude with the death of James Wright – since Gertrude had identified that he was spying on them, and that Elias&Gertrude seemed to collaborate from time to time afterwards (Gertrude had realised he was Jonah, but Jonah only understood that right before killing her). So maybe it was just to appease Gertrude?)

- Regarding the “curiosity”, really loved how it felt like a form of disease taking hold of the assistants and pushing them to their dooms (taking risks / experimenting on them):

(MAG167) ARCHIVIST: “Fiona was the most fascinating combination of curiosity and cowardice […]. She had never got deep enough into the mysteries that plagued her to slake that burning curiosity. And she never would. […] But Emma had a sickness. As much as she might have despised the ageing Fiona, it was the same one that plagued her: curiosity. That desperate, grasping need to know. […] There was a fire to Sarah Carpenter, perhaps the one which led to Gertrude hiring her, and Emma’s curiosity ignited once again, this time keen to find out exactly what it would take to break this brave investigator of the unknown.”

And… crying a bit about Sasha and Jon, once again ;;

(MAG026) SASHA: I should really quit, you know. We, we all should. I don’t think this a normal job. I, I don’t think this is a safe job. ARCHIVIST: You’re probably right. Do you want to quit? SASHA: No. I’m just… I’m just too damned curious, I suppose. You? ARCHIVIST: No. Whatever’s going on, I… need to know. Get some rest.

“Curiosity” was something Jon&Sasha both shared… if Sasha had stayed around for longer, would she have turned like Emma over the years/decades…?

- The episode’s title seemed to refer both to Emma (and the assistants)’s “curiosity”, and to Martin’s own – Martin deciding, after the story, that he didn’t want answers to some of his own questions (he learned! ;;). But also, it puts to mind what Jonah had said about Gertrude:

(MAG160, Jonah Magnus) “More than once, I thought [Gertrude] must secretly be of The Hunt, but there was never that sick joy in her, that thrill of predator and prey. She had simply decided that this was her position in life, and went about it with a practicality that even I found disconcerting at times. I once asked her… what drove her, what had started her down that path. She told me The Desolation had killed her cat…!”

Curiosity Kills The Cat. (Though: in this case, it was The Web/curiosity which “killed” Emma.)

I’m also CRYING because this exchange took place in 2013-2014, so after Gertrude had already got rid of Emma:

(MAG162) GERTRUDE: Find anything [ITEM FALLING ON THE GROUND] interesting– GERRY: Oh…! GERTRUDE: –back there? [DOOR CLOSES] GERRY: Yeah, sorry, I was just, hum… yeah. GERTRUDE: Curiosity is a very dangerous trait in our line of work, Gerard. GERRY: So is ignorance.

And what did Gertrude THINK and FEEL when she saw Gerry trespassing and taking an (unauthorised) look at her things? When he looked like he himself was succumbing to “curiosity”?

- Regarding The Web’s threads being involved in the derailing of rituals…

(MAG111) ARCHIVIST: And Gertrude wanted to stop [the rituals]. At… any cost. GERRY: She worked out they’d all be happening quite close together. She’d already been doing it a while, and the Unknowing was the next on her list. That and the Watcher’s Crown.

(MAG134) PETER: There are two Powers that, to my knowledge, have never attempted to fully manifest, never had followers set them up for a ritual: Mother-of-Puppets, and Terminus. The Web, and The End. The Web, I’ve never really been sure about: if I were to guess, I would say it actually prefers the world as is, playing everyone against each other, and so on.

(MAG151) SIMON: And honestly, the idea that this is all some… “grand cosmic joke”, thousands of us running around spreading horror and sabotaging each other pointlessly while these impossible, unknowable things just lurk out there, feeding off the misery we cause… [INHALE] I find that interpretation quite appealing…!

(MAG167) ARCHIVIST: “By this point, Gertrude was fully lost to her plots and plans and struggles, and as long as her assistants played their parts when asked, she paid them no more mind. And the frequency of genuine encounters grew, as the season of hurried rituals came nearer. […] And all through it, Gertrude could not see what was happening. And certainly the Spider smoothed things, elided questions, wiped away evidence, but it barely had to. Far better to feed Gertrude a steady string of plans to foil, and rituals to derail.

Was it to ensure that they wouldn’t succeed? Or was The Web having its kick with organising and derailing the rituals around? It really reminded me of Simon’s words, the idea that even if rituals weren’t successful… they were still feeding the Fears with the overall commotion.

- Was the man who killed Sarah Diego Molina? He fits the description:

(MAG167) ARCHIVIST: “He was bald, dressed in dreary office clothes. To a cursory examination, unfit and unremarkable, save for his peculiar surroundings. […] He split open like a flower bud blooming, and inside there was only the most terrifying heat. She had no time to run, and by the time she thought to scream it was too late as the thing enveloped her, closing tight – until she was simply more ash, trapped forever inside that charred and hollow shell.”

… And ;_; Gerry killed Diego Molina in December 2011. One or two years before Gertrude would contact him and offer to free him from Mary, and they began their collaboration. Did she feel some gratitude that he had avenged Sarah, back then…?

- Regarding Gertrude’s collaborators, I’m surprised to see Salesa included in the list:

(MAG167) ARCHIVIST: “And with that, Gertrude Robinson was without assistants. She never hired another. She worked with those that seemed useful until they were no longer so: Leitner; Dekker; Keay; even Salesa on occasion. But she never again allowed herself to trust.”

From what we know, Salesa was occasionally selling items to the Institute and had given a few statements (MAG115), but I don’t recall clear-cut examples of them working together. Are we meant to learn a few more things about Salesa…? There is still the mystery of his death (?), the explosion (MMMMM…), the absence of body and the camera being retrieved in Floyd’s statement (MAG141)…

- Alrighty, elephant in the room with this episode: ~*timeline problems*~!

This is the information we had so far regarding the chronology of events surrounding Hill Top Road, Agnes, and the Archives/Institute drama during Gertrude’s tenure:

* Since 1957: Raymond Fielding inherited a house on Hill Top Road, where he raised teenagers for spider egg sacks material. (MAG008)

* In the mid-60s, in the middle of a winter: Agnes was send to Raymond Fielding’s house by The Lightless Flame. (MAG059, MAG139)

[* For the estimated date above: Ronald Sinclair was born in the late 40s and saw Agnes’s arrival before he turned 18; he lived for three years with Raymond Fielding, just managed to escape after Agnes broke the threads binding/puppeteering him. He gave his statement on November 29th 2005. (MAG059)]

* 4th of June 1972: Fiona Law took Nathaniel Thorp’s statement, and Elias “was a filing clerk at the time” – possible slip-up of Jonah who had trouble recalling which body/identity he was using at the time. (MAG029)

* 1973: James Wright becomes Head of the Institute. (MAG049)

* In 1974, a five-year-old named Henry White goes missing near Hill Top Road, is not found; the house burns down shortly after, and Raymond Fielding’s corpse is found, missing its right hand. (MAG008)

* Shortly after (since Gertrude was around 25 years old): Gertrude found “a tin box in the ashes of Hill Top Road” containing strands of Agnes’s hair and, thinking she was working on a counter-ritual, was manipulated by The Web into binding her existence with Agnes’s. (MAG145)

* 1991: Elias Bouchard began to work at the Institute, in Artefact Storage. (MAG049)

* 1991–1996: Eric managed to quit the Archives, before getting killed by Mary Keay a few months afterwards. He had crossed paths with Elias before he became Head of the Institute, and remembered Emma and Michael fondly; Gertrude was already suspecting (and had shared that information with at least Eric) that James Wright was spying on them through eyes. (MAG154)

* 1996: Elias Bouchard became Head of the Institute / Jonah Magnus body-hopped from James Wright to Elias Bouchard. (MAG049, MAG154, MAG158)

* 1999: Statements were leaked to the public, deteriorating the Institute’s reputation. (MAG068)

* 2003: Fiona Law died “from complications following a liver transplant” according to Jon’s follow-up. (MAG029)

* August 2003 and some time after: Paul McKenzie left his statement on August 24th 2003, and Sarah Carpenter was sent to investigate, took pictures of his house. (MAG027)

* Autumn 2006: Jack Barnabas went on a few dates with Agnes Montague, as described in a statement left on March 18th 2007. (MAG067)

* Mid-November 2006: Ivo Lensik reported the strange occurrences happening in a house on Hill Top Road, crossing paths with Father Edwin Burroughs. He left his statement on March 13th 2007. (MAG008)

* 23rd of November 2006: Agnes Montague and Jack Barnabas went on a final date; on an impulse, Ivo Lensik hit Hill Top Road’s tree, which started bleeding, and then proceeded to “destroy” it. He found a wooden box containing a green apple, which turned into spiders; Agnes made a phonecall about a “tree falling” and gathered members of the Lightless Flame in her flat in Sheffield, one of them bringing a container full of tiny spiders; Agnes told Jack goodbye, kissed him at his request, and was later found hanged in her flat, with a human hand tied by a chain to her waist. (MAG008, MAG067)

* 30th of November 2006: Eugene Vanderstock was sent on Arthur Nolan’s behalf to tell Gertrude about Agnes’s death. (MAG139)

* 2nd of September 2007: during one of Gertrude’s recordings, her assistant Michael is heard on tape. (MAG099)

* 3rd of July 2008: Mary Keay visited Gertrude in the Archives, left Eric’s page with Gertrude. (MAG062)

* 21st of July 2008: Gertrude invoked Eric’s page and had a conversation with him. Eric mentioned that Emma and Michael were “nice” to him when he was working in the Archives. (MAG154)

* June 2008: Gertrude fed the Vast-touched Jan Kilbride to the pit, stopping The Buried’s ritual. (MAG097, MAG126)

* October 2008: Gertrude, with Adelard’s help, stopped The Flesh’s ritual. (MAG130)

* 2nd of February 2009: Arthur Nolan was ~invited~ by Gertrude for a talk, and they discussed amongst other things Agnes’s death, Eugene’s report of it two years earlier, Gertrude’s protective ritual having been disrupted and things having gone badly for the trespasser. Gertrude told Arthur that she had never met Agnes. (MAG145)

* “in the middle of February” [2009]: Jason North discovered and disrupted Gertrude’s ritual hidden in a forest in Scotland, was cursed by The Desolation, left his statement on August 6th 2009. (MAG037)

* Early October 2009: Deborah Madaki reported having received an invitation to assist The-Worker-In-Clay in Sannikov Land. She left her statement on October 11th 2009 and said she had received the letter a week earlier. (MAG126)

* ??? in-between: Gertrude took Michael to Sannikov Land and used him to disrupt The Spiral’s ritual, making him fuse with The Distortion. (MAG101)

* By 2011: Gertrude had lost all her assistants – Leitner mentioned in February 2017 that he had met Gertrude “about six years ago, after she’d lost the last of her own assistants”. (MAG080)

* 14th of August 2013: Adelard Dekker sent a last message to Gertrude, informing her of his incoming death. (MAG157)

* Around 2013: Gertrude and Gerry began to work together, for two years until Gerry’s death. (MAG111)

-> Michael replaced Fiona. Since Eric had left before Elias became Head of the Institute and worked with Michael, it means that Fiona was imprisoned by the Coffin before 1996 – although she was reported dead in 2003 from complication following a liver transplant (MAG029).

Proposition: anyway she was a prisoner in the Coffin, so there was no body found, and the operation-thing was just a cover-up. Back then, seven years were necessary before a missing person was presumed dead; so she could have disappeared anytime, and the Institute/Elias finally decided on a cover-up years later, when it was safer, to clean the records. (+ given how Jon asked Elias directly in MAG029, it’s possible that Jon got the information about Fiona’s “death” from him, and he could have falsified/provided whatever).

-> … really really more bothering: the idea that Agnes and Gertrude met after Gertrude had fed Michael to The Spiral. Considering that the day of Agnes’s death was reported multiple times as being the 23rd of November 2006; that Michael-as-an-assistant was recorded in September 2007; that the Great Twisting happened after October 2009. So, when Agnes had been dead for three years.

Jonny’s allusions to it doesn’t feel like it was intentional, but rather that it was a genuine mistake, which ;; (What is the fun in trying to unravel some mysteries if some information is accidentally contradictory, aarrrrg…). If it were to be intentional, I would suggest that Agnes… actually managed to free herself from The Desolation by self-sacrificing for them (in the same way that Eric quit the Archives by blinding himself), and hid from them afterwards? Or that she was a fire ghost, or that Gertrude met with her at Hill Top Road, where we know from Ivo Lensik and Anya Vilette that time is weird (Anya experiencing time differently, Ivo meeting with a young Ray Fielding and catching a glimpse of Agnes as a kid)?

If the Great Twisting indeed happened circa late 2009-2011, and Gertrude met Agnes “in some manner or shape” afterwards, it would mean that her declaration to Arthur in February 2009 wasn’t a lie:

(MAG145) GERTRUDE: Well, for all The Web bound us together, I never actually met her. What was she like?

Since she would only meet Agnes after making that statement.

- SOBBING a lot about the concept of Gertrude and Agnes meeting, since:

(MAG167) ARCHIVIST: “The rage she felt was ice-cold. And so, Gertrude went to the one person she was certain she could trust on the matter. Agnes Montague and Gertrude Robinson only ever met once in their lives. Even if The Lightless Flame had allowed it, what would there have been to say? The bond between them, real as it was, was no one’s choice but The Web’s, and neither of them were keen to play its game any further than they had to. Their discussion was brief, and tinged with a melancholy, an awareness of mistakes, of their choices and duties and destinies. Neither of them smiled. But Agnes did confirm what Gertrude knew, and the details of Sarah’s suffering only sharpened that deep and wounded hatred.”

It’s so powerful and beautiful and sad? My shiiiiip…

- Speaking of fire ghosts: could the one mentioned in MAG100 actually be Emma…? (Since it didn’t match with the location of Agnes’s flat.)

- I really liked how this statement humanised Gertrude: season 2 had shown her more in control than Jon previously thought, aware of what was happening around her; season 3 cemented that she knew how to navigate and survive around the Fears, cruelly efficient (feeding Michael to The Spiral and then able to protect herself from him, being work-orientated in Gerry’s eyes…); season 4 had shown her in control, but also needing to think and discover things (learning that The Slaughter didn’t need to be one of her concerns in MAG137) and not immune to getting manipulated (The Web binding her to Agnes in MAG145). I like how this episode really conveyed that Gertrude… hadn’t grown out of thin air; that, yes, she impressively managed to survive for so long in that world (around fifty years!), but that what we heard from her… was mostly her last twenty years of life. She used to be young! To operate slightly differently! She made mistakes, and hardened herself, and even though she traded sentimentality for a form of “efficiency”, it wasn’t perfect, she made her choices and they had consequences:

(MAG167) ARCHIVIST: “Alongside this inherited survivor, Gertrude would add two more assistants: Eric Delano, and Emma Harvey. They were young, like her, keen to delve deeper into those strange secrets that back then were spoken of more openly. To them, Fiona seemed something of a joke; a middle-aged chatterbox who told stories of the Blitz and jumped at the long shadows in the corners of the Archives. Emma in particular was Gertrude’s confidante, the one whose knowledge and instincts she trusted, and the only other member of the Institute who ever knew of the strange bond between Gertrude and Agnes Montague. […] This time, Gertrude did have an inkling as to what was happening, but had her own escalating conflicts to concern herself with, and recognised the potential in a truly ignorant assistant. […] By this point, Gertrude was fully lost to her plots and plans and struggles, and as long as her assistants played their parts when asked, she paid them no more mind. […] And all through it, Gertrude could not see what was happening. And certainly the Spider smoothed things, elided questions, wiped away evidence, but it barely had to. Far better to feed Gertrude a steady string of plans to foil, and rituals to derail. […] And with that, Gertrude Robinson was without assistants. She never hired another. She worked with those that seemed useful until they were no longer so: Leitner; Dekker; Keay; even Salesa on occasion. But she never again allowed herself to trust.”

True, Gertrude worked as an Archivist wayyy longer that Jon; he probably would have worked differently over time too, experienced more losses, changed his mind about a few things over decades. But it’s interesting that Jon’s trajectory, right now, has been the reverse of Gertrude’s; where she decided to stop trusting, he…

(MAG117) ARCHIVIST: Still, it does sometimes make it hard to… fully trust them, I– [SIGH] You– you know what, no. I’m… I’m done with that. No more paranoia. It’s almost got me killed more than once, and… Georgie was right. If I am… slipping, then I need people I can trust. And I… I don’t think that can happen naturally for me an–anymore, so… I’m making a decision. I trust them. All of them.

(It wasn’t pitch-perfect trust: he dissimulated that he had been attacking people from Daisy&Basira&Melanie in season 4. He trusted Martin but ultimately decided that the news of Adelard being dead and acknowledging that he might have been wrong about The Extinction was a deal-breaker and that he needed to help/save Martin from Peter’s plans. But he also decided to save them at all costs: rescuing Daisy in the Coffin, sharing the information about how to cut oneself from the Archives to Basira and Melanie, allowing Melanie to escape, and saving Martin in The Lonely.)

- Aaaaand the answer to whether or not Martin was going to immediately tell Jon about Annabelle’s call seems to be… no. Since Jon used his powers to find out about it.

(MAG167) [CLICK–] [FOOTSTEPS] [STATIC RISES] ARCHIVIST: Help us with what? MARTIN: ‘xcuse me? ARCHIVIST: Annabelle, help us with “what”? Our–our, our journey, killing Elias, vanishing the Entities – what? [FOOTSTEPS STOP] MARTIN: Please don’t do that. ARCHIVIST: Do what…? Oh! Oh. Right, I, I see, yes. [STATIC FADES] Well, I– … [FOOTSTEPS RESUME] Sorry.

But it was apparently still on Martin’s mind, so… even if she had told him things he already knew, it had been enough to make him insecure/ill-at-ease. And to not share with Jon. (Because he feared that Jon would panic over The Web and what Annabelle was doing, trying to second-guess and getting lost in interrogations? Confirmed by the way Jon erupted into questions as soon as he Knew about the exchange.)

- The fact Jon did another breach of privacy, while confirming that he had more control, felt very well-handled to me?

(MAG167) MARTIN: It doesn’t… feel great, having someone looking inside your head…! ARCHIVIST: You can… feel it? MARTIN: No, but that’s hardly the point– ARCHIVIST: Oh! MARTIN: –Jon… ARCHIVIST: No, I see. Sorry, hum… Alright…< MARTIN: I mean, I don’t want to keep secrets from you, but– ARCHIVIST: You should at least… be able to. MARTIN: Basically, yeah…! ARCHIVIST: I–I suppose that’s fair. […] MARTIN: You said you could control it now. ARCHIVIST: I can, I–I just… It… [INHALE] You’re absolutely right. I will refrain from knowing anything about you. MARTIN: Thank you. ARCHIVIST: Unless you’re in danger. MARTIN: Physical danger. If I’m in danger of being mad at you or something– ARCHIVIST: I… [SIGH] MARTIN: –you’ve got to figure it out the old-fashioned way. ARCHIVIST: Fine, agreed.

* “It doesn’t feel great having someone looking inside your head” => HI. REMINDER OF WHAT ELIAS DID TO HIM IN MAG118. It’s trigger-potential territory for him, so Martin honestly took it kind of well, considering his own experiences?

* Mmmm, setting up a situation where Martin will be in physical danger and Jon would have to use his powers to try to reach him again…?

* ! Jon messed up on his first instinctive preoccupation (whether his powers were hurting Martin and/or whether the subject could feel something when he did), but he quickly understood the nature of the problem – that Martin should have the freedom to choose to keep things for himself, that there is an imbalance, and that, plainly, it’s making Martin uncomfortable so, if Jon values Martin’s comfort, he should stop. I like how it felt like both of them worked on finding a consensus? Overall, I really liked how Martin managed to express his discomforts and when Jon’s powers were bothering/frightening him; he didn’t shame Jon for it, but didn’t fall in the trap of bottling up his feelings either. At the core of it, he still has the fear of losing Jon – so, it’s good that he was able to convey his discomfort.

(I feel like next step should be about Jon’s own discomfort about using Beholding powers to murder monsters, but I feel like they might be laying groundwork for this and for Martin to acknowledge that Jon… is still ill-at-ease with it and about his situation, and that clinging to his discomfort has also prevented him from going full-monster until now. We’ll see!)

- There is a discrepancy about Martin’s description of Annabelle’s call, and the call itself, and I’m not sure what to think about it:

(MAG166) MARTIN: Hello? ANNABELLE: Hello? Is that Martin? MARTIN: Don’t do that. ANNABELLE: What? No stomach for games? MARTIN: Well, your “games” aren’t exactly fun for everyone, are they? ANNABELLE: Very few games are…! MARTIN: [SIGH] Look, look, look, I’m talking to Annabelle Cane, right? ANNABELLE: You never gave me your name – so why should I offer mine? MARTIN: Just, what do you want? ANNABELLE: I want to help you, of course. [SILENCE] MARTIN: … No. Thank you. ANNABELLE: It’s a hard place to find yourself in, maybe I can be of some… assistance…! MARTIN: You can assist me by giving the… “creepy phone” thing a rest…! ANNABELLE: He is more powerful here than he’s ever been, isn’t he? [PAUSE] And you’re not sure what that means for you. MARTIN: [INHALE] I’m hanging up now. ANNABELLE: Does he even need you at all? MARTIN: Bye! [BEEP]

(MAG167) ARCHIVIST: [SIGH] … So. What did Annabelle say? MARTIN: She offered to help, but she didn’t say what with; she… asked us where we were going. I didn’t tell her, but… [SNORT] it was pretty obvious she had a good idea. ARCHIVIST: Did you… feel like she was… influencing your mind at all? MARTIN: I don’t think so, but I mean… who knows? ARCHIVIST: I could. MARTIN: But look. She didn’t control me into asking you not to look into my head, if that’s what you’re thinking. That’s all me. ARCHIVIST: Martin, I’m not… looking for a l–loophole. MARTIN: Well, good! ‘cause this isn’t one.

Jon had already uncovered the bit about Annabelle offering her “help”; but after that… on the one hand, Annabelle didn’t ask about their destination at all (contrary to what Martin said); and on the other hand, she needled Martin about Jon’s powers and whether or not Jon needed him (which Martin didn’t mention at all).

It could be faulty memory – that Martin got the impression she was probing about their destination, and that it became part of the exchange for him. It could be to test whether Jon was still using his powers (he wasn’t, we didn’t hear static, but Martin couldn’t have known). It could be a deliberate lie.

Personally, I would lean towards the interpretation that Martin was indeed checking whether Jon was still using his powers (it’s not a damaging lie: Annabelle knew when and where to contact him, so they’re quite clearly monitored already and Annabelle probably does know where they’re heading to and why); and didn’t mention the other part of his exchange with Annabelle because… he managed to get his answers in his own ways, without having to “involve” The Web in his discussion with Jon. If Martin had mentioned that Annabelle had asked him whether Jon needed him, would Jon have answered this easily that Martin was his reason? Or would Jon have panicked, thinking The Web might be manipulating him into saying it?

- Anyway, I feel like this episode might have been exactly what Annabelle was trying to instigate last time, which is… to get Jon&Martin to talk about their feelings, and for Martin to get a reassurance from Jon that he wasn’t managing to ask for, and that Jon had trouble wording without being pushed by the context.

(MAG167) MARTIN: [INHALE] [SNORT] Ssso. If you say Gertrude wouldn’t have been able to go on without a reason… ARCHIVIST: Yes, Martin, you are my reason. MARTIN: Just wanted to make you say it…! ARCHIVIST: [INHALE] MARTIN: Cool.

Not sure that it was what Annabelle was aiming for, but it’s a possibility: that she needed Martin to be reassured before they would reach The Lonely’s domain or something, because she wants them to get through.

(I loved Jon’s tone! I pictured him rolling his eyes because there was no way to say it without sounding too sappy to his own ears =D)

- Jon The Theatre Kid confirmed.

(MAG167) ARCHIVIST: … Methinks the Spider doth protest too much…! [BAG JOSTLING] MARTIN: Jon. ARCHIVIST: Joking! Just joking.

(Fun fact: in the play, “The lady doth protest too much, methinks” is pronounced… by Queen Gertrude. Jon, please.)

(It’s a joke, and a bit of truth and self-derision at the same time: how The Web… made Jon second-guess everything. When The Web tells you to go into X direction, is it reverse-psychology? Reverse-reverse psychology? So Martin denying being under influence could just be the proof of influence, or genuine. No way to know! But Jon has made the choice to trust him.)

- I felt like Martin was still… touched-by-Beholding in this one, mainly because of his probing, but also learning to keep his own curiosity/questions in check to not fall into the Fears’ influence?

(MAG167) MARTIN: [DEEP INHALE] Why did it have to be us? ARCHIVIST: You’d rather be a bystander? Trapped in… one of those places? MARTIN: I don’t know. “No”…? I just… [INHALE] I bet Gertrude would be able to do this, you know? She, she would eat a hellscape like this for breakfast…! [SILENCE] ARCHIVIST: I… don’t think she would have done very well here… MARTIN: No? ARCHIVIST: No… MARTIN: Do you… know that…? [STATIC RISES] ARCHIVIST: [DEEP INHALE] “To say that Gertrude Robinson never had a friend would not be true. […]” MARTIN: Well, let’s… try to avoid that next time…! ARCHIVIST: … Yes. Quite. MARTIN: [EXHALE] So, what? Without assistants, she’d be bad at the apocalypse? [RUSTLING OF CLOTHES] ARCHIVIST: Wi–without… trust, without a, a reason… Gertrude needed both the purpose her mission gave her, and the control her position allowed. To be here, like us, without a, [INHALE] a reason, without someone to ground her, she… She’d have power but… no control. No real… purpose. Perhaps she’d dedicate herself to a, a doomed quest like us, but– … [QUIET] No… I think this would have broken her. And she’d have resigned herself to… ruling her domain. MARTIN: What domain? [RUSTLING OF CLOTHES] ARCHIVIST: We all have a domain here, Martin. The place that feeds us. MARTIN: Oh. [PAUSE] Where’s yours? ARCHIVIST: [MIRTHLESS CHUCKLE] I mean, we’re… traveling towards it. MARTIN: Oh! Right, obviously. [CHUCKLING] Duh. Hum… What about me? ARCHIVIST: … Would you… like me to… ? MARTIN: No, no. Don’t tell me. I don’t want to know. ARCHIVIST: … Okay!

* I felt like there really was a progression from Martin, from asking and asking (and accidentally making Jon spill about Gertrude’s life) to… refraining himself and choosing that he would rather not know about things that are not impacting him right now.

* ;; So, Martin has a “domain”, “the place that feeds us”. I’m… not sure about what Jon meant by “us”: monsters and avatars? That would be acknowledging that Martin indeed is regarded as one after his involvement with The Lonely? Or is it about everyone, and the places are “feeding” people through their own fears? After all, they don’t need to drink or eat or sleep – what is sustaining them? Are the Fears “feeding” them in turn through the pain they cause to each other, following the “feed it or it will feed from you” that Jude had told Jon?

* If Martin has a domain… Where? Hill Top Road? The Panopticon?

(MAG158) PETER: It’s a significant site of power for The Beholding. From the tower in the centre of this room, you can see everything. MARTIN: But there’s nothing in the cells…! PETER: [CHUCKLING] I don’t mean the cells, Martin – I mean everything. […] I want to use the powers of this place to learn about The Extinction: what it’s doing, where it’s manifesting. Then we can stop it. MARTIN: And you need me for this? PETER: Correct! Without a connection to The Eye, any attempt to use it would likely end… very messily indeed! But thankfully, it just so happens that you hold such a connection. MARTIN: So that’s it… Both “lonely” and “watching”. PETER: You must admit you’re the perfect candidate. MARTIN: I suppose I am.

“Both Lonely and Watching”, so…

* I really loved how that episode made it clear that… right now, Gertrude wouldn’t have been able to do what Jon & Martin are doing. That Gertrude was good at some things, bad at others. That there are things that only Jon&Martin can do, that they don’t have to live in her shadow. It follows what Jon said at the end of MAG162, that Gertrude didn’t think there would be a way to reverse the apocalypse – but also that they’re not her, and will try to find one themselves.

(* I’M WORRIED, THOUGH, THAT JON SAID THEY WERE ON A “DOOMED QUEST”? NOT VERY OPTIMISTIC ARE WE ;;)

- Gertrude might have crumbled if she had been plunged into the apocalypse, and Jon&Martin aren’t since they have each other… So there was this part of relief, of removing one’s guilt a bit about not being “enough”, that we also found with what happened this episode:

(MAG163) MARTIN: Jon… ARCHIVIST: They sit here – [STATIC RISES] the image of everyone they hold dear locked in their mind, knowing they’ll never see them again. Waiting for the order; dreading the bullet or the drone or the barbed wire that will tear them to shreds and leave them nothing but a bloody– [STATIC REACHING A PEAK] MARTIN: J–Jon, enough! Enough! [STATIC FADES] … Please don’t tell me these things.

(MAG167) ARCHIVIST: I… don’t think she would have done very well here… MARTIN: No? ARCHIVIST: No… MARTIN: Do you… know that…? [STATIC RISES] ARCHIVIST: [DEEP INHALE] “To say that Gertrude Robinson never had a friend would not be true. […] . But she never again allowed herself to trust.” [RUSTLING OF CLOTHES] [STATIC] ARCHIVIST: [INHALE] I, I–I’m sorry, I–I didn’t, hum… MARTIN: No! No, it’s, uh… I–it’s okay. [COUGH] I just… I couldn’t… not listen, or interrupt, or… ARCHIVIST: I–I–I promise I–I didn’t know I was going to do that…! MARTIN: I, I understand…!

Back in MAG163, Martin had managed to interrupt Jon, which was not the case this time around – probably because he didn’t recognise what was happening as a statement soon enough? But since Martin was “trapped” in the flow of the story… it’s also confirming something that wasn’t addressed, but could have been a cause of guilt on Martin’s side: the thought that perhaps, if he had been there in MAG160, he could have stopped Jon from reading Jonah’s letter. If this episode was any indication, no, he wouldn’t have been able to. His not being there didn’t change anything.

- Reaaaally curious because the way Martin described it reminds me of Jonathan Fanshawe in front of Albrecht:

(MAG127, Jonathan Fanshawe) “Again he ignored me. Instead, he took the seat opposite me, and started to tell me… a story. And then another. And another. A stream of… strange tales began to pour out of him, and I just sat there, transfixed, [STATIC] desperately wishing I had the strength of will to stand and leave, but all I could do… was listen. […] He told me so many terrible things. [STATIC FADES] And at the end of it all, the only thing I could think to ask him… was where he read them. […] [STATIC] ‘You do not understand,’ he said to me in German. ‘I do not read the books. They read me.’ [STATIC FADES]”

Was Albrecht Jonah’s first attempt at creating an Archivist…?

- I’m still wondering WHO is narrating in Jon’s statements this season… a few “you” and “I”:

(MAG167) ARCHIVIST: [DEEP INHALE] “To say that Gertrude Robinson never had a friend would not be true. She was close in her way to many people but, looking back, [STATIC FADES] I wonder if she ever realised just how strongly she herself reeked of The Lonely.”

Is it Jon-as-an-omniscient-entity-that-might-be-The-Archivist/Archives? Is it something else…?

- I feel like this episode also brought an interesting contrast to season 4 overall. On the one hand, we had Jon admitting that Martin was his “reason” (anchor?) to not crumble, to keep moving forwards as long as they’re together; that’s… a healthier approach than Jon being Martin’s “reason” in season 4:

(MAG158) MARTIN: I… When I first came to you, I thought I had lost everything. Jon was dead, my mother was dead, the job I had put everything into had trapped me into spreading evil, and I… I really didn’t care what happened to me. I told myself I was trying to protect the others, but honestly? We didn’t even like each other. Maybe I just thought joining up with you would be a good way to get killed. And then… [SHAKILY] Jon came back, and… and suddenly, I had a reason: I had to keep your attention on me. Make you feel in control, so you didn’t take it out on him. And if that meant drifting further away… so what? I’d already grieved for him, and if it meant now saving him, it was worth it!

… where Jon was Martin’s “reason” to push forwards into sacrificing more bits of himself. (A shift might have happened with Jon making Martin see him in MAG159, but I wonder if we’ll go back to Jon-as-Martin’s-reason too, and whether Martin has changed his opinion about it. In what aspect is Jon “Martin’s reason”, nowadays?)

The other contrast is about Jon’s self-destructiveness – I’ve seen a lot of discussion about it, but I didn’t really feel like the end of episode was tense, or horrible for Jon, or that Martin was being insensitive by twisting the knife in a wound?

(MAG167) MARTIN: Oh, ju–, uh, just, uh… Before we do. ARCHIVIST: Mm? MARTIN: A moment ago, when you were talking. ARCHIVIST: Right. MARTIN: The old Archivist, Angus. ARCHIVIST: [INHALE] MARTIN: You said Fiona was… “released”– ARCHIVIST: [EXHALE] MARTIN: –when he died. ARCHIVIST: … Yes. MARTIN: If you had died… ARCHIVIST: [FAINT EXHALE] MARTIN: … Would the others have been able to quit? ARCHIVIST: … Yes. [RUSTLING OF CLOTHES] I didn’t know. MARTIN: If you had… would you have told them? Would that have, have changed what happened? ARCHIVIST: … [SIGH] I don’t know, Martin. I… [PAUSE] I don’t know. [BAG JOSTLING] [FOOTSTEPS] [CLICK.]

… I actually felt like it was Progress regarding Jon, and how he valued his own life.

First of: there is a possibility that Jon didn’t want to answer Martin because he knew, was convinced, 100% sure that he would have killed himself to free the others, with or without telling them first. But I find it interesting to think that Jon answered genuinely, that no, he truly doesn’t know if he would have! That he’s slowly admitting to himself… that no, he doesn’t, and has never wanted to die, even when he was ready to take risks, harm himself, endanger his life:

(MAG159) ARCHIVIST: Listen – I know you think you want to be here, I know you think it’s safer and w– … well, maybe it is… But we need you. I need you. MARTIN: [DISTANT, VOICE ECHOING] No, you don’t. Not really…! Everyone’s alone, but we all survive. ARCHIVIST: I don’t just want to survive! MARTIN: [DISTANT, VOICE ECHOING] I’m sorry. ARCHIVIST: Martin… Martin, look at me. Look at me, and tell me what you see.

I still feel like Jon has always clung to the hope that he could make it out somehow, and the end of season 4 had him… acknowledge that he didn’t just want to “survive” – that is, he wants to “live”. He wants some quality of life. He wants something out of living.

But more importantly: season 5 began with a string of interrogations of hypothetic scenarii. What would have happened, if Sasha had been chosen as the Archivist? What would have happened, if they had listened to Gertrude’s testament at the beginning? Here, Jon was able to tell that one of the “what if” scenarii (Gertrude being thrown into the apocalypse) wouldn’t have been better; so him also admitting that he didn’t know whether he would have told the others… might be saying that no. He can’t know. It didn’t happen, since he didn’t know. And if he had known, maybe it wouldn’t have changed a thing; maybe it would have made things worse, too. I feel like it’s more optimistic than “I regret that I didn’t know, because then, I would have done it in a heartbeat”? So, I don’t know, but I felt like Martin’s probing was a way to try to get Jon to acknowledge that… maybe Jon telling the others would have changed things, maybe it wouldn’t have; but mostly, things wouldn’t have been necessarily better if Jon had chosen to sacrifice himself.

(I’m not convinced that Jon would have done it, and I’m not convinced that the others would have tried to kill him (even Tim!), and I’m not convinced that it would have made things better for everyone – by the time there were tensions, Tim probably wouldn’t have wanted to feel like a murderer when he had just been accused of being one, and would still want a shot at revenge for his brother; Melanie was already curious about the ghosts and was already infected by The Slaughter when enrolled; Martin didn’t have many other options for a job and wouldn’t have had a reason to not fall into The Lonely with Peter’s guidance; Daisy would have still been under The Hunt’s influence, and Basira involved with her.)

MAG168’s title is MMM again. I really love how last titles make a lot of sense in retrospect but were so hard when trying to guess! It feels like a lore-heavy one, but probably not twice in a row? But if it’s the case, it could relate to the Institute, to Jon, to Jonah, to Martin.

Fears-wise: could be The End (it has… a connection); I’m obviously thinking about Hill Top Road/Albrecht’s end again, so could be Web-y…

#the magnus archives #tma season 5 #mag167 #tma liveblog #long post/#tma spoilers/

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nightqueendany · 6 years

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What Does Jon Snow Know About Daenerys Targaryen?

Translation: Does Jon know enough about Daenerys to believe she’s someone who can’t be trusted AND/OR that she’s someone he thinks shouldn’t hold reigning power over the North?

AKA Is there even REASON for there to be a “Political Jon” in the first place? (aside from Jon apparently being in love with his sister which would be basing theory on theory {political Jon is true because Jon loves Sansa} which is the logical fallacy “Begging the Question”)

Let’s start with the basics.

What Jon would know of Daenerys aside from what Tyrion writes in his scroll?

Jon should know that Daenerys is the daughter of Mad King Aerys and that she was exiled as a baby and grew up in Essos. While we do have the scene of Sam reading to Aemon about Daenerys, Jon does not show up until the very end of that scene so it’s unclear if he heard about her freeing slaves in Essos. He would know Aemon is her great-great-uncle and that her brother Rhaegar kidnapped and raped his aunt Lyanna (allegedly).

That’s essentially it. Daenerys is never mentioned around book Jon so to ascertain Jon’s impression/thoughts of Daenerys, we only have Season 7 to go off of.

Without further adieu, here we go:

(another obnoxiously long-winded one, I probably ramble on a bit too long but whatever, read if you like)

7x02

Tyrion’s scroll -

Queen Daenerys Targaryen, First of Her Name, invites you to Dragonstone. My queen commands the combined forces of Dorne and the Reach, an Ironborn fleet, legions of Unsullied, a Dothraki horde, and three dragons. The Seven Kingdoms will bleed as long as Cersei sits on the Iron Throne. Join us. Together we can end her tyranny. I appeal to you as one bastard to another. For all dwarves are bastards in their father’s eyes. - Tyrion Lannister, Hand of the Queen.

What can Jon surmise about Daenerys from Tyrion’s letter alone?

1) She’s powerful. She would have to be in order to command a Dothraki horde. Jon might not know much about the Dothraki, but he certainly grew up with stories of them. Lewin mentions Dothraki boys and how they learn to shoot a bow from horseback to Bran so we can assume Jon knows what they are, how fierce of warriors they are, and probably, that they’re a patriarchal society. With Daenerys being a woman commanding them, she’s got to be pretty damn special.

2) She has already won the allegiance of the Reach, Dorne, and the Ironborn (at least, some of them). The Reach and Dorne are easy to guess why they sided with Daenerys: because they hate the Lannisters/Cersei. However the Ironborn is the oddball. The Ironborn are “known” for their failed rebellions and wanting to distance themselves from the Iron Throne. And yet they’ve sided with Daenerys. That, in the least, tells Jon Daenerys brings more to the table than just revenge against Cersei. He may not know what that is yet, but he knows there’s something there, something other than Cersei, that would draw the Ironborn to her. Again, there’s something *different* about her.

3) She may have miraculously birthed dragons into the world again. It’s not written anywhere how this is done. That’s why the Targaryens went without dragons for 150 years though obviously there were eggs around. No one knew/remembered how to do it. Yet apparently, Daenerys figured it out and now has dragons. So she is *possibly* magical... like him.

4) Daenerys chose Tyrion as her Hand. Jon knows Tyrion is a dwarf and how people look on him. And as Tyrion reminds Jon in the letter all dwarves are bastards in their father’s eyes. Last Jon saw of Tyrion, he was just a bookworm and kind of a drunk, his only claims to fame being he was the Queen’s brother and a dwarf. Yet Daenerys chose him as her Hand anyway. She didn’t have to do that. She could have just kept Tyrion on her council for being a Lannister and picked someone else not related to her enemy as her Hand. But no, she chose him. This is likely the most telling thing Jon could learn about Daenerys. Knowing she chose Tyrion as her Hand, Jon can see Daenerys is someone who looks past a person’s outward “faults” and values them for who they really are, regardless of what society thinks of them. This right here was likely the deciding factor in Jon choosing to actually meet with her in person.

7x03

1) Jon and co are asked to hand over their weapons before meeting with Daenerys - Jon could see this as an intimidation move, a test to see if he’s “compliant”, a power play, what have you. Perhaps it’s meant to make Jon and co feel vulnerable, at Dany’s mercy, Jon doesn’t really know as he’s never met her, but it certainly rattles him. “My bannermen think I’m a fool for coming here,” he says and Tyrion doesn’t disagree with this statement. “If I was your Hand, I would have advised against it.” So Jon likely thinks Daenerys isn’t someone he wants to tangle with. If her own Hand is telling Jon he would have advised him not to come were he in Davos’ shoes, that tells Jon he may have made a mistake in coming. It’s not meant to make him feel at ease at all. So Jon goes in to meet Daenerys with his guard already up. To add to that feeling...:

2) Jon see’s Drogon. This clearly tells Jon Tyrion wasn’t lying about the dragon thing. They’re fucking real and really fucking huge. They could likely burn down Winterfell within minutes. Though Daenerys isn’t on Drogon’s back, controlling him, commanding him to fly over Jon and the welcome party, it’s yet another intimidation move, albeit unintentional. Again, Jon would likely be thinking about how powerful Daenerys really is. The evidence just flew over his freaking head. She’s powerful!

3) Daenerys is announced with all the bells, whistles, and titles and immediately assumes Jon is there to bend the knee. Jon clearly gets irritated during this conversation with Dany, telling her, “As far as I can tell, your claim to the throne rests entirely on your father’s name and my own father fought to overthrow the Mad King.” Jon likely thinks Daenerys arrogant for assuming he’d bend the knee to her without getting to know her, a bit full of herself for having to be announced with all her titles, entitled because she’s trying to reclaim the Kingdom when her family’s rule was overthrown, and likely that she has illusions of grandeur when she says “Together, we will save this country from those who would destroy it,” as if under her rule alone the Seven Kingdoms will be as right as rain. He’s not impressed by her visions of the future and he no doubt thinks her foolish for believing Cersei is the worst threat against the Seven Kingdoms when he’s standing there telling her it’s the Army of the Dead she should be focused on instead.

However, though Jon is clearly not impressed with Dany in this first conversation, seeds are sown of what she’s really like: She admits her father was an evil man and wants to be seen as different from him; she considers Jon a Stark worthy of holding the North for her though she knows he’s only a bastard; though she may want power for power’s sake, she also has lofty ideals about protecting people which *may* align with his own efforts. But of course, that’s yet to be seen.

4) Tyrion tells Jon that Daenerys stayed in Essos to “save people from horrible fates.” At this point, again, Jon has likely been on Dragonstone for a week or so and has probably now heard about her slave-freeing efforts in Essos. While Jon may not see the importance with what Daenerys was doing in Essos, he at least gets it from Tyrion that her true wish is to protect people. Though her version of saving people is not quite in line with Jon’s - Dany’s wishes more broad, wanting to rule and Jon’s wishes more narrow, just wanting to defeat the Night King - they do have this one small thing in common, regardless of how they approach the issue.

5) Daenerys gives Jon the dragonglass. Jon has just essentially ambushed Dany on the steps. It doesn’t appear as if it was a planned meeting between them. She’s just out there watching the dragons and watching the sunset and he comes to find her to speak with her alone. “You’ve been talking to Tyrion?” - that line right there tells us Jon wasn’t sent by Tyrion or summoned by Daenerys; it’s a completely candid moment between the two of them. Jon gets angry again and tells Daenerys he hasn’t changed his mind about not bending the knee - again, this likely makes him think she’s stubborn, entitled, difficult, shortsighted, any number of negative things.

BUT THEN Daenerys does something completely unexpected: she gives Jon the dragonglass AND alots him men to help him mine it. She doesn’t require Jon bend the knee for the glass and she doesn’t ask for any kind of payment from him. Though, yes, the dragonglass is virtually useless to Dany, at least with the White Walkers on the other side of the Wall, it’s still something Jon wants. It’s on her island. Supply and Demand. Dany could charge Jon a lot for this glass as he needs it and she has it. Gold would only help in her war against Cersei - buy some more ships, ship in supplies from Essos, etc. But she gives it to him for free AND she gives him men to help him - fighting men that could be spending their time on the battlefield instead of in the mines with him. In this moment, Jon may feel slightly defeated for Daenerys still *possibly* not believing him about the Army of the Dead and the Night King, but he also will be feeling grateful for her giving him the dragonglass free of charge. Daenerys knows next to nothing about Jon except he was named King by his people and he won’t bend the knee to her. But she gives him this anyway. She’s taking a leap of faith. Jon has to feel thankful to her. He’s not a punk. He knows Dany didn’t have to do this and he’s appreciative of the progress Daenerys is making toward an alliance with him. Again, Jon has done nothing to earn Dany’s trust aside from telling her of this mythical magical threat no one has seen in millennia. He offers her only words and an even bigger problem than she’s already facing. She offers him weapons. It’s an unequal exchange. Jon has to appreciate this selfless gesture.

7x04

1) Dany agrees to meet with Jon to see the dragonglass cave. This doesn’t really tell Jon much about who Dany is as a person as it could mean a lot of things: she’s just a nerd who likes looking at volcanic rock in caves, she’s got nothing better to do (actually pretty accurate), she’s genuinely curious about this substance found on her home island, she’s trusting - not requiring her Dothraki guard to accompany them and being alone with Jon - she’s got the hots for him (also pretty accurate), she’s open to the idea of accepting the Night King and Army of the Dead are real (also accurate). There’s nothing really negative Jon can assume about Dany by her agreeing to let him show her the caves. The most obvious things he could think are that she’s open, trusting, and curious.

Jon could assume Daenerys is attracted to him and that that’s the reason she agrees to go into a dark cave alone with him. But it’s not really Jon’s character to assume so highly of himself. PLUS - what’s stopping Jon from assuming Daenerys is trying to seduce him to get him to bend the knee? Again, he doesn’t know Dany. She’s young. She’s pretty. She’s single. What’s to stop her from trying to use her womanly charms to get the young Northern King who was supposed to be recently celibate (Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch) to bend the knee? If Jon tried actively seducing Daenerys, his plan could completely backfire - or just be utterly pointless - if she in turn was trying to seduce him. And if Jon *thought* of the idea of seducing Dany to get her to come over to his cause, he would have had to at least consider that Daenerys would think of the exact same plan to get Jon to bend the knee. But I’m going off on a tangent...

2) Daenerys tells Jon she would fight for the North IF he bent the knee. Now, I’ve seen a lot of Jonsa/anti-Dany blogs describe Jon’s look in this scene as “disappointed” and I see nothing wrong with that assessment. Dany gets Jon’s hopes up by saying “I will fight for you. I will fight for the North” - at this Jon looks like it’s Christmas. And then Dany drops the bomb “when you bend the knee.” Of course he’s disappointed. He thought he had convinced her of the real threat, the really important war, not her one with Cersei. And she does let him down. Yes, I think Jon is disappointed in this moment. What could this make him think of her? He could still think she’s entitled, for wanting ruling power over the North. He could think she’s shortsighted/stubborn for wanting to defeat Cersei first. He could also think she’s manipulative for getting his hopes up, stepping into his personal space, being close with him, using her soft bedroom voice, calling him a king. (and again, if Jon has thought of seducing Dany purely for gain and not because he genuinely likes her, he has to consider the possibility she’s doing it right back to him. One of her nicknames is “foreign whore” after all. And what do whores do? Seduce men for personal gain) If Jon’s feelings aren’t genuine, he’d be an idiot not to consider the possibility that Dany’s feelings aren’t genuine either.

Then Daenerys tells him, “Isn’t their survival more important than your pride.” Verbatim what he told Mance. The. Exact. Same. Words. While this could still make Jon think Dany is being shortsighted and entitled, he’s got to recognize the oddness of her word choice. It’s not a common phrase. It’s not a thing people just...say. The coincidence of her words have to freak Jon out a little bit, even if he didn’t like what she was saying. So it has to at least put him back in that mindset he was in with Stannis threatening to burn Mance. No, Dany hasn’t physically threatened him or his people. But she’s offering something he wants - protection - and in order to get it, he’d have to give her something she wants - loyalty. This has to at least a little bit, start making Jon mentally weigh the pros and cons of having Dany as his queen. He doesn’t want his people to end up like Mance’s people at Hardhome. That’s what he’s trying to avoid. So to avoid what happened to Mance’s people, he’s got to be considering not making Mance’s mistake. So there’s that also.

3) Their encounter in the caves ends and Tyrion and Varys deliver the bad news that Olenna has been murdered and Highgarden is sacked. Daenerys orders Jon and Davos to stay with them on the beach and then she contemplates flying to King’s Landing to burn down the Red Keep with Dragonfire. Jon looks a little exasperated at this, especially when she says “you will stay.” Again, this likely furthers his belief that Dany is entitled, used to getting her way. When she mentions burning down the Red Keep with the dragons, Jon could be thinking Daenerys is ruthless - but he wouldn’t be thinking she’s completely uncaring though because she did just tell him she would help him, if he bent the knee. There’s a very delicate line there she’s balancing on. And he wouldn’t be thinking Daenerys is mad like her father, because she takes no pleasure in this decision and it isn’t unprompted. Cersei attacked her ally. Daenerys wants to retaliate. It’s a natural reaction in war to want to retaliate against one’s enemies. Hell, it’s the entire reason why Jon nearly punched Ramsay’s face off - anger and retaliation for killing Rickon and raping Sansa. Cersei (her armies at least) captured/killed Dany’s allies. She wants to attack Cersei right back. It’s not madness.

Hearing Daenerys talk about wanting to fly to the Red Keep - Jon again, likely thinks Daenerys a bit ruthless. But she’s still not on a level with Cersei - Cersei has remained protected within the confines of the Red Keep, letting Euron and Jaime do her biding. But Daenerys wants to join the fray herself. Normal queens wouldn’t do that. “What kind of a queen am I if I’m not willing to risk my life to fight them?” Jon may not agree with Daenerys’ plan, but he likely respects her as a fellow fighter. This could be an attractive quality to Jon when he thinks about the Great War. It wouldn’t just be him alone out there facing the Night King as he faced Ramsay’s cavalry. He would possibly have her beside him. And that would be a comforting thought. Again, Daenerys may be ruthless, but she takes responsibility for herself and her people, just as Jon does.

4) Daenerys asks Jon for advice. This is an incredibly telling moment between Jon and Daenerys. Jon means nothing to Dany. They have a very shaky alliance at this point at best. They’ve met in person all of three times. But Daenerys still asks Jon what he thinks she should do about the Cersei problem, over her own Hand. Jon begins to tell her “I would never presume...” but she still asks for his advice anyway. She wants him to tell her the truth.

For all those people who think Jon picks up on some kind of “secret language” people speak to Daenerys with - flattering her, telling her she’s special, painting her as a savior, blah blah blah blah blah - this move from Dany completely destroys all of that bullshit. Jon has offered Daenerys no praise at this point. The only thing he has told her that could be seen as even a neutral statement is “At the very least, you’re better than Cersei.” That’s not a compliment. He has not flattered her at all at this point. But she turns to him for advice anyway.

If Dany were wanting to be flattered and pandered to in this specific moment, the person she should turn to is Missandei - the slave girl she freed and saved from her masters. Missandei would likely have the most praise to lay on Dany and would tell her something to make her feel good in this moment. If that’s the way to Daenerys’ heart, then Jon is the person she would seek advice from the least. But she asks for his input. That move right there tells Jon she doesn’t want to be pandered to. She doesn’t want to be flattered. None of that shit works on her. He’s only told her the brutal truth at this point and that’s what she’s looking for. Jon doesn’t tell her she’s special or flatter her in this moment. He warns her what she would be seen as if she flew off to King’s Landing. For Daenerys to seek Jon’s advice and then take it to heart (she never attacks a civilian population), Jon has to be thinking that he and Daenerys are similar in that respect. She values the truth as much as he does.

Jon scoffs at Sansa when she says “You’re good at this you know. Ruling. You are, BUT you have to...” - Sansa giving Jon a “compliment” before she tries to tell him what she really thinks of him and his ruling style. Daenerys doesn’t want useless compliments either. She wants the truth. Even if that truth comes from someone who is virtually still a rival to her. Jon has to respect Dany for this. He may not agree with her thought process, but as one leader to another, he would respect this.

5) Daenerys leaves Dragonstone to attack the Lannisters who sacked Highgarden and he learns from Missandei that she used to be a slave whom Daenerys freed. This doesn’t necessarily tell Jon anything he didn’t already know. He’s kind of left in charge of the island - at least a few of the Dothraki are there to protect him and follow his commands as we saw on the beach scene with Theon. Tyrion is with Dany and Varys isn’t there on the beach with Jon when he meets Theon. Missandei doesn’t step in either, letting Jon have complete control of the situation. This is Daenerys putting a lot of trust in Jon. She puts her trust in him when she asks for his advice and then she puts even more trust in him by letting him have basically free reign of her island when she’s gone. If Jon really were Dany’s prisoner, she would take him to the mainland with her and keep him guarded while she fights the Lannisters. But she doesn’t do this. He’s left to keep mining dragonglass with his new Dothraki bros. The Dothraki are, again, a patriarchal society. Why would Dany leave some of her men with Jon, a king, a fighter, all the things Dothraki would respect in a khal, if she didn’t trust him? Jon has to see all of this. He may not completely agree with what Daenerys has left to do, but he would see how trusting she is of him. That, or he would think Daenerys doesn’t see him as much of a threat anyway and that she has complete control/the loyalty of her people. Likely, he’s thinking both.

7x05

1) Daenerys returns from the Loot Train Battle. While some in the fandom don’t think it very telling that Jon is waiting for Dany when she returns, I think it’s very telling. I mean, he’s out on a cliff, Dany’s other dragons are still on the island. He’s alone. He’s vulnerable. In the 7x05 commentary Dan Weiss says Dany is like 85% sure Drogon won’t eat Jon - meaning there’s a chance he still might. Yet Jon is there waiting for Dany anyway. He shows his bravery (or stupidity) and stays, pets Drogon (YOLO, I guess...? Or sorry, YOLT as Jon’s on his second life), and then he banters with Daenerys about the dragons being gorgeous beasts. Notice Jon smiles as he says “wasn’t the word I was thinking of but....” He’s comfortable enough around Dany to laugh and attempt a little banter. He’s just had a scare of his life - having a dragon rush him on a cliff - and he’s lived to tell about it. His adrenaline is going. This wouldn’t put him in a calculating and manipulative mindset. And again, even if he were trying to manipulate Dany, he wouldn’t tell her “No I’m not” when she asks “You’re not sure how you feel about that” - in reference to her battling the Lannisters. He’d say something like “You did what you had to do and I respect that,” to get on her good side. But he’s still butting heads with her. If Jon is trying to seduce Dany, he’s the worst seducer in the world.

2) Sometimes strength is terrible. Daenerys doesn’t use flowery words around Jon...or ever really. So he’s got to appreciate her honesty. He may not agree with her worldview on the surface, but he can’t deny the similarities between the two of them. Daenerys points this out to him: “How many men did your army kill taking Winterfell back from the Boltons?” Again, Jon may think Daenerys a bit foolish for thinking the Seven Kingdoms will be better off under her rule, but still, he can’t argue with her logic. It’s the same argument he used in order to justify taking back Winterfell. After all, who appointed Jon protector of the Free Folk and protector of the North from the White Walkers? No one. He promised the Free Folk safe passage south. He never said he would protect them after that; he only asked they help him when the Night King came. That’s it. Jon took it upon himself to be their warrior. Daenerys is doing the same thing with the Seven Kingdoms. If she’s foolish, then he’s foolish too.

3) Jorah returns. So far Jon has seen Daenerys interacting with Missandei, Tyrion, Varys, and her Dothraki. Aside from her friendship with Missandei, he hasn’t really seen anything other than the regal side of her. Then Jorah shows up. Shipper goggles aside (if Jon isn’t jealous of Dany and Jorah’s relationship), he at least is now privy to this softer side of her. Right after she calls the dragons her children and is a little vulnerable, she then reunites with Jorah and she’s got tears in her eyes. If Jon was thinking Daenerys is nothing but a cold-hearted, ruthless, entitled queen before, these interactions would have to change his mind and make him see there’s more to Daenerys than meets the eye. Jon knows who Jorah is, having served his father in the Night’s Watch. He knows Jorah was once wanted for selling people into slavery - yet Daenerys’ whole plight in Essos was about freeing slaves and Jorah is loyal to her. So Jon must be able to put it together that Jorah has changed - so much so that he’s even gained Daenerys’ love and affection (in whatever context). Jon has never seen Dany as emotional as when she reunites with Jorah. This, right after she’s told him “We both want to help people. We can only help them from a position of strength. Sometimes strength is terrible.” These interactions with Daenerys, her showing him her belief system, showing him they’re not so different, and her affection for Jorah, would make him see that there’s this softer side to her, a caring side.

4) The letter from Sansa. Jon tells Daenerys at the beginning of this conversation “I need to go home.” Daenerys, not put off by Jon’s anger, puts things back into perspective for him. “You say you don’t have enough men.” Jon’s being a little bit of a hothead here, reckless, possibly suicidal. He and Daenerys know he doesn’t have the men to face the army Jon’s described to her. If what he says is true, he’s as good as dead. And when Jon asks her “unless you’ll join us?” she doesn’t give him an automatic “no.” She gives him a very legitimate reason as to why she can’t YET. She’s not even talking about Jon bending the knee here. That’s all gone. Daenerys hasn’t mentioned Jon bending the knee since the last episode, before she rode off into battle. When Jon starts to pile on more evidence for her - even if it’s questionable evidence - Dany forgets this bending the knee nonsense. It doesn’t matter anymore. She does want to help Jon but she tells him the truth - she’s afraid of what would happen to her lands and people if she weren’t there to protect them from Cersei. Whatever Jon was thinking before, he now knows that Daenerys is not beyond reason and her heart is in the right place. There are just obstacles in the way, preventing her from helping him right away. She wouldn’t go along with such an idiot plan if her heart weren’t in the right place. She wants to help him. She’s willing to delay indefinitely her war with Cersei in order to do so. And he knows this now.

7x06

1) I’ve mentioned this before in THIS post but when Jon tells Tormund “She’ll only fight beside us if I bend the knee.” That’s not true anymore. Their mission beyond the Wall proves that. Jon hasn’t promised to bend the knee to Dany when he returns from the mission with the wight. Yet the whole point of the mission is to get Cersei to agree to a truce so Dany can come North without putting her people in the south at risk. Why would Jon think she won’t fight with them unless he bent the knee with this whole truce plan in place? At the very least, Jon’s just being forgetful here. At the most, he’s possibly already thinking (unnecessarily) that he’s going to bend the knee to Daenerys once he gets back from the mission.

Or, you know, it’s just a really really stupid and glaring error in the writing of this episode. Which is also entirely possible.

2) Jon thinks of Daenerys to come and help them. At this point, yes, she’s the only one who can help them when the entire army of the dead is after them. BUT, to even ask for her help, Jon has to be hopeful that Daenerys would come save them at all. And then she actually does. I’ve mentioned this before but I’ll repeat it again, Daenerys has never given Jon a reason not to trust her. He wanted the dragonglass, he got it. He wanted to figure out a way to make people believe him about the army of the dead, Tyrion thought of it and Dany didn’t stop the mission. He asked her to come save him and the fellowship of the wight. She saved them. She has done literally everything Jon has asked of her.

Of course, again, Jon could be thinking, “hey, maybe she likes me.” But if Daenerys is already doing what he’s asked of her, what would his motive be to further try to seduce her and get her into bed? He hasn’t slept with her yet or been terribly affectionate with her. But she’s done what he’s asked anyway. If he were seducing her, wouldn’t he want to keep dangling the carrot? In dog racing, you have the little motorized bunny for the dogs to chase. You don’t stop the bunny for the dogs in the middle of the race and let them play with it! You keep the bunny running until the finish line. So if Jon were trying to get Daenerys to fall in love with him so that she would do what he asked, wouldn’t he keep himself slightly distant, feeding her small bits of hope of a relationship, but holding out until the very end, when the Night King was defeated?

And if Daenerys asked Jon to sleep with her...he could give any number of excuses not to. “I was a man of the Night’s Watch and I’m a virgin, I want to wait until I’m married, I don’t want to dishonor you, we should be married first, I want you to meet my family first, etc.” Literally so many excuses that would make him seem even more honorable.

But I’m going on a tangent again...

3) Daenerys pledges to fight for Jon without requiring that he bend the knee FIRST. Again, Daenerys hasn’t mentioned Jon bend the knee in two episodes. Why? Because it’s no longer a requirement for her to come help him. She just needs her truce with Cersei to ensure her people in the south will be safe. That was established in 7x05. Dany coming to save him and pledging to help him - no strings attached - has to make Jon feel ridiculously grateful to her. And she just lost a lot. He now sees what she has to lose and she did lose. Yet she’s willing to risk the lives of her other two dragons, her two remaining “children” to continue to help Jon until the Night King is defeated. What else could Jon feel in this moment but immense gratitude? What else would he think of Daenerys other than she’s a generous and caring person who finally gets it. Jon would have no reason to think ill of Daenerys in this moment. He would have no reason not to trust her word in this moment. Again, as far as he has seen, she has done everything he’s asked. And now she is finally pledging to do the first thing he ever asked of her - help him defeat the Night King. He has no reason not to trust her AND no reason to bend the knee to her...other than that he thinks she’s better equipped to save/protect his people. Which she is.

7x07

1) Daenerys and Jon talk and she tells him for the second time that she can’t have children. He could think she’s mistaken and that she actually can get pregnant. He could think she’s telling the truth and that if he slept with her he’d be safe from getting her pregnant. He could think she does have feelings for him as it’s a fairly personal thing for her to divulge. If anything, he would be thinking about Daenerys’ softer side and that she does have things she cares about other than being a queen - she wants to be a mother. He could guess that she fears being like everyone else, being mediocre/ordinary, not making a difference in the world. He should think of her as strategic at least as she doesn’t want to jeopardize her people in the south and wants to ensure their safety first before going North.

2) Daenerys decides to sail with him versus flying on Drogon. The Emmy script tells us Jon wants to smile at this news. Now, if Jon were really manipulating Daenerys, is this something that would necessarily make him smile? If he felt it was going to lead to his having to sleep with her (as in he doesn’t want to and it’s going to be like a chore), he probably wouldn’t smile! You smile when you’re happy. If he didn’t want to sleep with her but now thought that he had to sleep with her because they were sailing together, though it’s part of his plan, he’d probably be feeling a lot of pressure - he’s got to preform well after all - he’d probably be feeling upset/sad/mad (some combination of the three) because he doesn’t want to sleep with her. He may feel slight relief that his master plan has *worked* and he’s going to be able to get her alone. But this wouldn’t make him so happy he has to hold back a smile. Jon isn’t some evil genius mastermind, like Baelish. He’s not mad like Aerys. He doesn’t take pleasure in other people’s pain, even if he thinks other’s suffering is necessary - planning to kill Mance for instance. He’s a guy with real feelings. If he felt obligated to sleep with Dany, it’s not going to make him happy at the prospect of it. He wouldn’t smile.

But Jon does smile...or tries not let his smile show. The only reason Jon would be smiling is because Daenerys agreed to his plan to sail together rather than flying by herself. And the reason her decision makes him smile is because he’s excited to be sailing with her. The prospect of them sailing together makes him happy. He’s not thinking about an obligation or a master plan he’s trying to put into place. He’s thinking about how the woman he’s slowly fallen for just agreed to stay close to him for the next month or so while they sail and he’ll get to spend more time with her.

And what Jorah said about it being more dangerous for Dany to travel with him on land, angry man with a crossbow nonsense...well, if Dany died on the way to Winterfell, Jon would be fucked. Her safety is paramount to him because otherwise, her armies and dragons go the fuck back to Essos. Why would they stay and fight for Jon when their queen is dead - due to his dipshit plan - when they don’t know him, don’t speak his language, haven’t seen him fight, haven’t seen his strength, and his own people won’t be very welcoming of them. If Dany dies, Jon loses his army. He has to see her safely to Winterfell since she’s not flying - which means sticking even more closely to her as he’s pretty much the best fighter around.

On a non-shipping level, Jon would think Dany’s agreeing to sail with them would mean she values their alliance, she values Jon’s opinion, and she wants to make a good impression on his people. Even if Jon isn’t in love with her - as a small portion of the fandom speculates - he would at least appreciate that. He would appreciate all the efforts Daenerys has made to 1) save his ass 2) save his people and 3) earn his people’s trust. Dany cares about how she’ll come across to the Northerners which means she cares about their voices, their thoughts, their opinions. And Jon would have to see that. Just as she values him as one of her vassal lords, she would value the rest of them. It’s what good queens do.

So regardless of whether Jon’s initial impression of Daenerys was bad not, his opinion of her would have had to change as she began making efforts toward an alliance and to helping him and his people.

Again, Jon likely thought of Dany as arrogant, entitled, and foolish when they first met. But through his interactions with her he saw that she’s not arrogant - she seeks advice from him when she doesn’t even know him well, meaning she’s sensible enough to know when to humble herself; she’s not entitled - she knows she needs to earn the Northerners trust which is why she’s finally agreed to come help in the war against the Night King; and she’s not foolish - she saw the real threat to the realm and she immediately answered his call to arms.

Once Daenerys pledges to Jon on the ship coming back from Eastwatch - really when she agreed to let the wight hunt mission happen in the first place - there’s no reason for Jon to “trick” or “plot against” Dany anymore, if he was plotting against her before that. Again, she has done everything he’s asked up to this point. She has never broken her word to him. It makes no sense for Jon to think that Daenerys would break her word on coming North to help them fight the Night King.

AND

On Jon pledging the North for Dany...

I’ve seen some people say he did it to “protect” Sansa...as if somehow he was making it okay for her to be named Queen while he’s gone and then the Northerners could rise up against Dany when they come to Winterfell...but that wouldn’t make sense. If Jon pledged the North to her and they rose up against her, it would put Jon’s people in even more danger because Daenerys would be well within her rights to execute any dissenters - namely Sansa.

There is really no reason for Jon to pledge the North for Dany unless he couldn’t actually really mean it. To do so, again, puts his people - his family - at great risk.

And if Daenerys has already promised to help Jon defeat the Night King and she’s done what she’s said she would do thus far, there’s no reason for Jon to bend the knee to Dany to get her to come North. She already has agreed to do so.

Worst Case Scenario - if Cersei didn’t agree to Dany’s truce, Dany would be forced to burn down the Red Keep to take King’s Landing quickly so she could become queen, ensure the safety of everyone in the south, and then march North - this would be a much shorter timeline then Jon deceiving Dany, them getting all the way to Winterfell, and then the Northerners raising up against Daenerys OR them getting all the way to Winterfell only to find out Cersei betrayed them and Dany leaving to deal with Cersei first, then come North again.

Jon bending the knee to Dany - whether or not he intends to betray her - was a much more risky move for Jon. Again, if things go to shit, there’s still the chance Dany would leave to deal with Cersei so her people in the south don’t suffer. why would Jon risk that? Risk that much more time being wasted not helping his people and not fighting the Night King?

The only reasons Jon pledged to Dany were because he truly believed her to be a fair ruler, the right ruler of his people, he believed in her...and he loves her (that’s not the only reason or the main reason, it’s just in addition to the others).

TL;DNR:

Political Jon is utter bullshit. Jon has no reason not to trust Dany. Jonsa isn’t happening. Everyone can suck it.

#jonerys #daenerys targaryen #daenerys defense squad #jon snow #jon snow defense squad #anti political jon meta #anti undercover jon #anti jonsa #i've been working on this one for a really long time #i know most won't read the whole thing #but i just had to get it out of my system

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