#like I know GRRM gets a lot of criticism for his depiction of rape | Explore Tumblr Posts and Blogs

aboveallarescuer · 4 years

Text

Daenerys Targaryen in A Storm of Swords vs Game of Thrones - Episode 3.5: Kissed by Fire

In this series of posts, I intend to analyze precisely how the show writers downplayed or erased several key aspects of Daenerys Targaryen’s characterization, even when they had the books to help them write her as the compelling, intelligent, compassionate, frugal, open-minded and self-critical character that GRRM created.

I want to make it clear that these posts are not primarily meant to offer a better alternative to what the show writers gave us. I understand that they had many constraints (e.g. other storylines to handle, a limited amount of time to write the scripts, budget, actors who may have asked for a certain number of lines, etc) working against them. However, considering how disrespectful the show’s ending was to Daenerys Targaryen and how the book material that they left out makes it even more ludicrous to think that she will also become a villain in A Song of Ice and Fire, I believe that these reviews are more than warranted. They are meant to dissect everything about Dany’s characterization that was lost in translation, with a lot of book evidence to corroborate my statements.

Since these reviews will dissect scene by scene, I recommend taking a look at this post because I will use its sequence to order Dany’s scenes.

This post is relevant in case you want to know which chapters were adapted in which GoT episodes (however, I didn’t make the list myself, all the information comes from the GoT Wiki, so I can’t guarantee that it’s 100% reliable).

In general, I will call the Dany from the books “Dany” and the Dany from the TV series “show!Dany”.

Scene 5

This episode was written by Bryan Cogman, but he admits here that the scenes in Essos were actually written by D&D.

Before I talk about the scene itself, we need to consider that its premise is flawed to begin with. Neither Barristan nor Jorah are known for making jokes and being friendly and amusing in general, they are actually known for lacking a sense of humor:

And Daario Naharis made her laugh, which Ser Jorah never did. (ASOS Daenerys V)

"Give that tongue of yours a rest unless you'd rather I tied it in a knot."

Tyrion swallowed his retort. His lip was still fat and swollen from the last time he had pushed the big knight too far. Hard hands and no sense of humor makes for a bad marriage. That much he'd learned on the road from Selhorys. (ADWD Tyrion VII)

Twice exiled, and small wonder, Tyrion thought. I'd exile him too if I could. The man is cold, brooding, sullen, deaf to humor. And those are his good points. (ADWD Tyrion VIII)

Littlefinger was the last. As Ned looked to him, Lord Petyr stifled a yawn. "When you find yourself in bed with an ugly woman, the best thing to do is close your eyes and get on with it," he declared. "Waiting won't make the maid any prettier. Kiss her and be done with it."

"Kiss her?" Ser Barristan repeated, aghast.

"A steel kiss," said Littlefinger. (AGOT Eddard VIII)

In the purple hall, Dany found her ebon bench piled high about with satin pillows. The sight brought a wan smile to her lips. Ser Barristan’s work, she knew. The old knight was a good man, but sometimes very literal. It was only a jape, ser, she thought, but she sat on one of the pillows just the same. (ADWD Daenerys II)

Which is not to say that they can't ever laugh at people's jokes or make jokes themselves, but it's noticeable that the show's time to depict Dany's storyline is limited and that they still chose to write a scene that has little to do with their core personality traits.

Even more importantly, these two are unable to be friendly with one another because Jorah is too suspicious of Barristan and wants to isolate Dany from other men:

“In King’s Landing, your ancestors raised an immense domed castle for their dragons. The Dragonpit, it is called. It still stands atop the Hill of Rhaenys, though all in ruins now. That was where the royal dragons dwelt in days of yore, and a cavernous dwelling it was, with iron doors so wide that thirty knights could ride through them abreast. Yet even so, it was noted that none of the pit dragons ever reached the size of their ancestors. The maesters say it was because of the walls around them, and the great dome above their heads.”

“If walls could keep us small, peasants would all be tiny and kings as large as giants,” said Ser Jorah. “I’ve seen huge men born in hovels, and dwarfs who dwelt in castles.”

“Men are men,” Whitebeard replied. “Dragons are dragons.”

Ser Jorah snorted his disdain. “How profound.” The exile knight had no love for the old man, he’d made that plain from the first. “What do you know of dragons, anyway?” (ASOS Daenerys I)

“It was said that no man ever knew Prince Rhaegar, truly. I had the privilege of seeing him in tourney, though, and often heard him play his harp with its silver strings.”

Ser Jorah snorted. “Along with a thousand others at some harvest feast. Next you’ll claim you squired for him.” (ASOS Daenerys I)

“A warrior without peer ... those are fine words, Your Grace, but words win no battles.”

“Swords win battles,” Ser Jorah said bluntly. “And Prince Rhaegar knew how to use one.” (ASOS Daenerys I) 

“...A change in the wind may bring the gift of victory.” He glanced at Ser Jorah. “Or a lady’s favor knotted round an arm.”

Mormont’s face darkened. “Be careful what you say, old man.”

Arstan had seen Ser Jorah fight at Lannisport, Dany knew, in the tourney Mormont had won with a lady’s favor knotted round his arm. He had won the lady too; Lynesse of House Hightower, his second wife, highborn and beautiful ... but she had ruined him, and abandoned him, and the memory of her was bitter to him now. “Be gentle, my knight.” She put a hand on Jorah’s arm. “Arstan had no wish to give offense, I’m certain.”

“As you say, Khaleesi.” Ser Jorah’s voice was grudging. (ASOS Daenerys I)

Ser Jorah watched with a frown on his blunt honest face. Mormont was big and burly, strong of jaw and thick of shoulder. Not a handsome man by any means, but as true a friend as Dany had ever known. “You would be wise to take that old man’s words well salted,” he told her when Whitebeard was out of earshot.

[...] “This Arstan Whitebeard is playing you false. He is too old to be a squire, and too well spoken to be serving that oaf of a eunuch.” (ASOS Daenerys I)

“Sit, good ser, and tell me what is troubling you.”

“Three things.” Ser Jorah sat. “Strong Belwas. This Arstan Whitebeard. And Illyrio Mopatis, who sent them.” (ASOS Daenerys I)

But when Mero was gone, Arstan Whitebeard said, “That one has an evil reputation, even in Westeros. Do not be misled by his manner, Your Grace. He will drink three toasts to your health tonight, and rape you on the morrow.”

“The old man’s right for once,” Ser Jorah said. (ASOS Daenerys IV)

“Whilst you have an honest beard, is that what you are telling me? You are the only man I should ever trust?”

He stiffened. “I did not say that.”

“You say it every day. Pyat Pree’s a liar, Xaro’s a schemer, Belwas a braggart, Arstan an assassin ... do you think I’m still some virgin girl, that I cannot hear the words behind the words?” (ASOS Daenerys IV)

“Khaleesi, before you kneels Ser Barristan Selmy, Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, who betrayed your House to serve the Usurper Robert Baratheon.”

The old knight did not so much as blink. “The crow calls the raven black, and you speak of betrayal.” (ASOS Daenerys V)

I doubt their book counterparts would spend their time apart from Dany talking to each other about their pasts, and I think that's a significant change because it's another way that makes show!Jorah (whose book counterpart is a slaver who tries to groom, isolate and undermine Dany) be seen in a much more positive light than in the books.

JORAH: It was a bitch of a siege.

BARRISTAN: Mm, you were first through the breach at Pyke?

JORAH: The second. Thoros of Myr went in alone, waving that flaming sword of his.

BARRISTAN: Thoros of Myr. Bloody madman. Robert knighted you after the battle?

JORAH: Proudest moment of my life. One knee in the dust, the king's sword on my shoulder, listening to the words. "In the name of the Warrior, I charge you to be brave." All I could think of was how badly I had to piss. In full plate metal for 16 hours. Never occurred to me till the fighting was over. I was very nearly the first man knighted to piss on the king's boots.

In the books, the siege of Pyke is brought up in this context:

“By then my father had taken the black, so I was Lord of Bear Island in my own right. I had no lack of marriage offers, but before I could reach a decision Lord Balon Greyjoy rose in rebellion against the Usurper, and Ned Stark called his banners to help his friend Robert. The final battle was on Pyke. When Robert’s stonethrowers opened a breach in King Balon’s wall, a priest from Myr was the first man through, but I was not far behind. For that I won my knighthood.”

“To celebrate his victory, Robert ordained that a tourney should be held outside Lannisport. It was there I saw Lynesse, a maid half my age. She had come up from Oldtown with her father to see her brothers joust. I could not take my eyes off her. In a fit of madness, I begged her favor to wear in the tourney, never dreaming she would grant my request, yet she did.”

[...] “What did she look like, your Lady Lynesse?”

Ser Jorah smiled sadly. “Why, she looked a bit like you, Daenerys.” He bowed low. “Sleep well, my queen.”

Dany shivered, and pulled the lionskin tight about her. She looked like me. It explained much that she had not truly understood. He wants me, she realized. He loves me as he loved her, not as a knight loves his queen but as a man loves a woman. She tried to imagine herself in Ser Jorah’s arms, kissing him, pleasuring him, letting him enter her. It was no good. When she closed her eyes, his face kept changing into Drogo’s.

[...] She had heard the longing in Ser Jorah’s voice when he spoke of his Bear Island. He can never have me, but one day I can give him back his home and honor. That much I can do for him. (ACOK Daenerys I)

As we can see above, the siege of Pyke is brought up to contextualize Jorah and Lynesse's relationship and parallel their relationship with Dany and Jorah's current one. It is there to service Dany's storyline, motivations and relationships - with that backstory, she realizes at that point that, while Jorah loves her, she can't love him back. This makes her feel guilty, so much so that she thinks she has to compensate by bringing him back home. This is also an instance that displays how deeply ingrained patriarchal views are on this universe - because Dany is a woman, she thinks she owes her knight something in return for his protection. The roles of liege and object of desire intersect in a way that wouldn't happen to a king.

But why am I saying all of this? My point is that connections between past and present in ASOIAF matter only to the extent that they say something about our POV characters. The Arianne/Rhaenyra and Arianne/Nymeria comparisons matter only to the extent that they inform Arianne's motivations and storyline, as well as the Jon Snow/Blackfyres one, which informs Catelyn's views on Jon. By contrast, the show brought up the siege in Pyke only so that we would empathize with show!Jorah again, but that was never the main purpose in the books, in which the backstory primarily serviced Dany's character. But then, the show writers are intent on erasing how creepy and disrespectful Jorah's treatment of Dany in the books is.

Also, the only new detail that they added was that Jorah wanted to urinate while Robert was knighting him. Was that really necessary?

BARRISTAN: Robert would have laughed. He was a good man, a great warrior. And a terrible king. I burned away my years fighting for terrible kings.

In the books, Barristan has more conflicted feelings about Robert Baratheon than he ever lets on in the show:

“Some truths are hard to hear. Robert was a ... a good knight ... chivalrous, brave ... he spared my life, and the lives of many others ...[”] (ASOS Daenerys VI)

I came to bring Daenerys home. Yet he had lost her, just as he had lost her father and her brother. Even Robert. I failed him too. (ADWD The Queensguard)

And what did Robert say when he saw them? Did he smile? Barristan Selmy had been badly wounded on the Trident, so he had been spared the sight of Lord Tywin's gift, but oft he wondered. If I had seen him smile over the red ruins of Rhaegar's children, no army on this earth could have stopped me from killing him. (ADWD The Kingsguard)

Barristan may admit Robert's value as a knight (highly questionable as it is), praise him for showing mercy to the Targaryen loyalists and be ashamed for "failing" him. At the same time, Barristan still feels anger for the deaths of Rhaegar's children, so much so that he can't stop himself from thinking he would avenge them if he had seen Robert smiling at the sight of their corpses. Also, when he thinks about the people he failed, he thinks that he failed "even Robert", which shows that he had considerably less regard for him than he did either Dany or Rhaegar.

I don't think Barristan would ever call Robert a "good man", and I think his feelings for Robert are particularly important because they inform Barristan's siding with Ned when he asks Robert not to kill Dany, as well as why he chose to follow Viserys (Rhaegar's heir) instead of Stannis (Robert's heir) and why he demands that the Shavepate does not kill Dany's hostages if he is to side with him.

Also, again, Barristan would never share his personal feelings (much less negative ones) about anyone with Jorah.

The infuriating part, though, is this one:

JORAH: You swore an oath.

BARRISTAN: Yes. And a man of honor keeps his vows, even if he's serving a drunk or a lunatic. Just once in my life before it's over, I want to know what it's like to serve with pride, to fight for someone I believe in. Do you believe in her?

JORAH: With all my heart.

First, they portray show!Jorah as a reliable source as to whether we should trust show!Dany or not. While one might argue that these are two different characters, not only the erasure of Jorah's negative behaviors for the sake of an unrequited love story is still disgusting, but Jorah was never a reliable source about Dany in the books.

Second, Barristan's arc is partly about finding out on his own that Dany is a worthy liege after spending years following bad kings:

“...The truth is, I wanted to watch you for a time before pledging you my sword. To make certain that you were not ...”

“... my father’s daughter?” If she was not her father’s daughter, who was she?

“... mad,” he finished. “But I see no taint in you.”  (ASOS Daenerys VI)

“So I am a coin in the hands of some god, is that what you are saying, ser?”

“No,” Ser Barristan replied. “You are the trueborn heir of Westeros. To the end of my days I shall remain your faithful knight, should you find me worthy to bear a sword again. If not, I am content to serve Strong Belwas as his squire.” (ASOS Daenerys VI)

“I flung my sword at Joffrey’s feet and have not touched one since. Only from the hand of my queen will I accept a sword again.”

“As you wish.” Dany took the sword from Brown Ben and offered it hilt first. The old man took it reverently. “Now kneel,” she told him, “and swear it to my service.”

He went to one knee and lay the blade before her as he said the words. (ASOS Daenerys VI)

“Freedom to starve?” asked Dany sharply. “Freedom to die? Am I a dragon, or a harpy?” Am I mad? Do I have the taint?

“A dragon,” Ser Barristan said with certainty. (ASOS Daenerys VI)

Having show!Barristan ask show!Jorah's opinion on show!Dany diminishes the impact of the passages above, which display his own judgment based on the time he spent on Dany's side.

Having show!Barristan ask show!Jorah's opinion on show!Dany undercuts Barristan's arc. The show writers might have show!Barristan say that he wants to "fight for someone [he] believe[s] in", but that's just lip service; these words ring hollow because we don't see him finding out for himself.

Could the show writers have added an original scene that gives the characters around show!Dany more to do? Of course (though I've argued before that even the scenes focusing on show!Dany are often seen from the viewpoint of her advisors and prevent us from fully experiencing the journey with show!Dany herself). But they should have thought about whether it fits into their characterizations in the books and, if it doesn't, why is that change necessary? What does having show!Barristan not find out on his own that show!Dany is a liege worth following cause besides undermining both Dany's and Barristan's characters? What does having show!Jorah not be a creepy and be a reliable source about show!Dany cause besides making a slaver look better?

Show!Grey Worm's first scene has its strengths. I like how it displays show!Dany's genuine empathy for the Unsullied, as well as show!Grey Worm's admiration for her. The actors gave good performances. There is one departure from the books (that I don't really understand the purpose of; they probably forgot about it), though:

DAENERYS: What is your name?

GREY WORM: Grey Worm.

DAENERYS: Grey Worm...

MISSANDEI: All Unsullied boys are given new names when they are cut ... Grey Worm, Red Flea, Black Rat. Names that remind them what they are ... vermin.

The books go even further on the slavers' dehumanization of the Unsullied:

“This one’s name is Red Flea, your worship.” 

The girl repeated their exchange in the Common Tongue. 

“And yesterday, what was it?” 

“Black Rat, your worship.” 

“The day before?” 

“Brown Flea, your worship.” 

“Before that?” 

“This one does not recall, your worship. Blue Toad, perhaps. Or Blue Worm.”

“Tell her all their names are such,” Kraznys commanded the girl. “It reminds them that by themselves they are vermin. The name disks are thrown in an empty cask at duty’s end, and each dawn plucked up again at random.”

“More madness,” said Arstan, when he heard. “How can any man possibly remember a new name every day?”

“Those who cannot are culled in training, along with those who cannot run all day in full pack, scale a mountain in the black of night, walk across a bed of coals, or slay an infant.” (ASOS Daenerys II)

Not only their names remind them that they are vermin, they are also changed every day so that they lose their sense of individuality.

Even with this change, I'd say that the scene still conveys how unacceptable and cruel the slavers' treatment was.

There are other changes that I find more concerning. The first is the most inconsequential: why is show!Missandei calling show!Dany khaleesi instead of Your Grace? Only Jorah and her khalasar call her by that title in the books. I suppose this is a Doylist issue since s3!Dany was more recognized as "khaleesi" than "Daenerys" by the audience, but it still goes against their characterizations.

The second is that, as I said in my 3.4 review, this scene would have made more sense in Astapor:

One of the first things Dany had done after the fall of Astapor was abolish the custom of giving the Unsullied new slave names every day. Most of those born free had returned to their birth names; those who still remembered them, at least. Others had called themselves after heroes or gods, and sometimes weapons, gems, and even flowers, which resulted in soldiers with some very peculiar names, to Dany’s ears. Grey Worm had remained Grey Worm. When she asked him why, he said, “It is a lucky name. The name this one was born to was accursed. That was the name he had when he was taken for a slave. But Grey Worm is the name this one drew the day Daenerys Stormborn set him free.” (ASOS Daenerys IV)

Dany still had to choose which freedmen would occupy the ruling council, so I assume she stayed in Astapor for a few days. With that in mind, if abolishing the custom of new slave names was one of the first things Dany did after the fall of Astapor, it's much more likely that she did it there rather than on the march to Yunkai. Why couldn't they have written this scene there? Because seeing her leave Astapor makes for a more visually impressive scene, I guess. As I said before, though, it gives weight to the superficial reading that show!Dany only went to the city, took its military force and left (even if we'll later find out that she also installed a ruling council there in 4.5). Being faithful to the books would've prevented any misconception of this sort from happening.

My third and final issue is that this scene is meant to be of secondary importance in the books. As one can see in ASOS Daenerys IV, it only appears as a brief flashback in the context of a scene in which Dany is seen giving Grey Worm military orders. That's because the focus of the chapter is on Dany's character development as a leader and a military tactician (similar to how ASOS Daenerys VI only shows the conquest of Meereen as a brief flashback in the context of Jorah telling Dany that her "sewer rats" won her the city; that's because the focus of the chapter is less on the adrenaline and victory and more on the aftermath of the sack and its negative consequences, intertwined with Dany's personal problems).

One might argue that we could have had both this scene and show!Dany's character development in the next episodes. However, as I will explain in future reviews, the show writers don't care about show!Dany's character development at all, which is why it becomes enough of an issue for me to bring it up.

JORAH: King Robert wanted her dead.

BARRISTAN: Of course he wanted her dead. She's a Targaryen. The last Targaryen.

JORAH: I suppose no one on the small council could speak sense to him.

In this interview with Bryan Cogman, Elio Garcia interprets show!Jorah's actions as if he were "fishing for information about just what Barristan knew about him and his dealings with Varys". That's not an unreasonable guess, but it's another one that does a disservice to Barristan's character. In the books, Barristan only hid information from Dany about Jorah because revealing Jorah's betrayal would mean revealing his identity. If his identity had been already revealed, he would have told her much earlier - that's what happens right after she finds out that he's Barristan Selmy, after all:

“...And since the day you wed Khal Drogo, there has been an informer by your side selling your secrets, trading whispers to the Spider for gold and promises.” (ASOS Daenerys V)

However, because the show writers probably know this, they made another change just as detrimental to Barristan's character:

BARRISTAN: I didn't sit on the small council.

JORAH: No? Doesn't the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard traditionally ...

BARRISTAN: Traditionally, yes, but I killed a dozen of Robert's friends during his rebellion. He didn't want advice on how to govern from a man who had fought for the Mad King. Can't say I minded much. I always hated the politics.

I'm not saying that the Barristan of the books loves the politics or that he's one of the best political players of the books. Far from that. Still, his character development culminates in these realizations:

The gods of Westeros were far away, yet Ser Barristan Selmy paused for a moment to say a silent prayer, asking the Crone to light his way to wisdom. For the children, he told himself. For the city. For my queen. (ADWD The Queensguard)

His queen was the Mother of Dragons; he would not allow her children to come to harm. (ADWD The Kingbreaker)

"You would break King Hizdahr's peace, old man?"

"I would shatter it." Once, long ago, a prince had named him Barristan the Bold. A part of that boy was in him still. (ADWD The Queen's Hand)

Before Dany, Barristan remained silent as he watched Aerys and Robert committing atrocities and abusing their power. After Dany, he's not only revolting against a bad king (Hizdahr), he's also taking on her anti-slavery cause and declaring war against the slavers. That's character development. Siding with Ned against Dany's death was Barristan’s first (albeit small) act of rebellion and the beginning of an arc that will later lead him to fight against slavery because of the very girl whose murder he opposed.

On HBO, not only we'll never see show!Barristan doing any of this (because he'll be killed off earlier), we are seeing him dismiss the importance of political action, which is the very opposite of the ultimate realization of his book counterpart's arc. And what's worse is that all of these changes are being made for the sake of show!Jorah's character.

JORAH: Yeah, I imagine I would, too. Hours spent jabbering about backstabbings and betrayals the world over.

I don't know if show!Jorah reducing politics to "jabbering about backstabbings and betrayals the world over" is necessarily proof that this is what the show writers think. That being said, that dismissal can be considered foreshadowing of how little they will care about adapting Dany's ADWD storyline properly. It can also be interpreted as proof of how they tend to oversimplify the characters according to their basic archetypes. If Jorah and Barristan are warriors, of course they don't care about politics and are friendly with each other (all men are friendly with each other and all women are catty with each other, right? See also: Tyrion/Davos, Jon/Gendry, Sansa/Arya, Dany/Sansa, etc).

BARRISTAN: Mm-hmm. Still, she'll have to wade through that muck if she wants to rule the Seven Kingdoms. She'll have good men around her to advise her, men with experience.

JORAH: Which men do you have in mind?

BARRISTAN: Forgive me, Ser Jorah, for what I'm about to say, but your reputation in Westeros has suffered over the years.

JORAH: It suffered for a reason. I sold men into slavery.

BARRISTAN: I don't know if your presence by her side will help our cause when we go home.

JORAH: Our cause? Forgive me, Ser Barristan, but I was busy defending the khaleesi against King Robert's assassins while you were still bowing to the man.

BARRISTAN: We both want her to rule. Am I wrong?

JORAH: You only joined us a few days ago. I can't speak to your intentions.

BARRISTAN: If we're truly her loyal servants, we will do whatever needs to be done, no matter the cost, no matter our pride.

JORAH: You're not Lord Commander here. You're just another exile. And I take my orders from the queen.

First, I don’t know why the heck would show!Barristan tell show!Jorah rather than show!Dany that Jorah’s presence might not help her cause. Not only it makes him dumb (because show!Jorah obviously wouldn't take that well), it also makes it seem that he likes show!Jorah enough to advise him to leave, which is not true at all in the books, as I've already showed above.

Second, I hate that this exchange makes it seem that show!Jorah feels guilty for selling men into slavery (he doesn't in the books). He was still trying to normalize slavery in 3.1 and 3.3!

I know that fandom tends to praise Bryan Cogman for trying to correct plot holes and for paying attention to the books' events and the show's continuity. That knowledge doesn't mean he necessarily understands the characters well - he certainly does not understand Dany well, and this comment is proof of his ignorance:

“Yeah, it’s probably refreshing for Iain Glen! How many times can he explain something about Essos culture to Dany? ;)”

If he really understood Dany, he would also say that we don't just see Jorah giving Dany knowledge. We also see her retain that knowledge and apply it later, we also see that she has knowledge of her own (because, let's not forget, she has lived in Essos for almost her whole life, certainly for a longer period than Jorah) and we also see her making decisions of her own volition. The misconception that Dany is ignorant and too reliant on the men around her is dismissive of her character, but it unfortunately informs the show's writing of her, for they erase many moments showcasing her intelligence and competence.

He also says that "the Dany stuff is a challenge" because of the lack of material, which is a flimsy excuse - many key scenes of her chapters were cut (see here), even if she doesn't have a lot of chapters in ASOS. Lack of material to adapt was never an issue for anyone in any storyline. The show writers should have been overwhelmed with the amount of material they had and the necessity to select them properly (which they failed to do because they mostly looked at the scenes as plot points).

I'm nitpicking his comments, admittedly, because he also said that (show!)Dany's story is "the rise of a villain". He really doesn't know anything about her.

For this review, there's no comment of mine on any Inside the Episode because D&D's Inside the Episode 3.5 doesn't talk about show!Dany's storyline. I'm not commenting on show!Dany's clothes either because she's wearing the same clothes from episode 3.4 and I've talked about them here.

#daenerys targaryen #asoiaf meta #valyrianscrolls #barristan selmy #grey worm #asos vs got #asoiaf vs got #jorah mormont #a storm of swords #s3

54 notes · View notes

battlestar-royco · 5 years

Note

Just so you know, there’s a SJM account that’s saying you guys worship grrm and like the way he wrote about dany’s rape scene. To elaborate, this user wrote that you guys unfairly critique SJM for including sex scenes in her novels because she’s a woman but then worship grrm anyways because he’s a man. I don’t know if you guys get a lot of anon hate but I thought I would warn you in case because she made it seem as if you guys are abuse apologists instead of just people who don’t like sjm

Okay so I sat down to answer this ask and it kind of unintentionally became an anti SJ/M manifesto. So before I begin, thanks anon for sending me this and giving me an excuse to write it. Here is an obnoxiously long answer about the nature of the anti community. TL;DR, critiquing Mess is valid for many reasons, and there are many further reasons why the “antis should critique GRRM more”/painting SJ/M antis as GRRM apologists/stans arguments don’t really hold water.

I think we’ve run into that essay and maybe actually butted heads with the author. From what I remember, the account in question took us out of context by implying that because we critique SJ/M more and for the most part believe Martin is technically a better writer than Mess, we inherently excuse his horrific depiction of rape and women. I try not to read stan tags or specific accounts except for the rare occasion that someone directs me to a blog, so the only time I see their posts is when an anti quotes or screenshots an SJ/M blog post. I also try not to take stan critics too seriously because every time they critique us they just further clarify that they have no idea what the anti community is about–specifically, our reasons for critiquing SJ/M (rather than Martin), how diverse our approaches to critique are, the kind of action we intend to inspire with our posts, and what we actually post about. The main argument against anti blogs is that we’re too hard on SJ/M in favor of GRRM, which is a strawman argument for many reasons. So even though I shouldn’t have to explain the reasons for our community existing, and specifically not focusing on Martin, this seems a better opportunity than any to do so:

Just because we have more critique of SJ/M on our blogs than we do of Martin doesn’t mean that the critiques of SJ/M are invalid. In fact, we critique SJ/M because her books are written such that people (specifically teen girls and young women, more often white and cishet) are able to reject Martin’s books due to their problematic nature. They can then turn to the hollow feminism of SJ/M’s work and say that she is better–at worldbuilding, at craft, whatever may have you, but specifically at writing women and progressive/feminist narratives. Though I disagree with all of these things, the former aspects don’t bother me as much as the last one. I take great issue with this last takeaway and I think it’s very privileged and even further problematic to maintain it in the grand context of fantasy literature, so that’s why I focus my blog on SJ/M. Additionally, for as long as I’ve been in the community–a little over a year now! :D–I have never witnessed an anti praise GRRM’s diversity and representation of women in a positive light compared to SJ/M. This is in large part because aside from my and Marta’s accounts, GRRM rarely comes up, and if he does it is not in the context of critiquing SJ/M. Additionally, he does not have the Martin equivalent of “Messisms”–AKA repeated and inaccurate claims of progressive sentiments in his books, as SJ/M does. As someone who has read copious feminist/activist and radical gender/postcolonial etc theory, it is very important to me to unpack the implications of Mess’s frequent and frankly careless ascriptions of “feminist” to her books which are being marketed to girls and women. (To be fair, I don’t pay as much attention to Martin’s interviews as I do Mess; his books, writing style, and persona fail to inspire me to research his writing advice and meta commentary.)

Another main reason why GRRM is not discussed as much in the anti corner is that most of our blogs are YA lit-oriented, which necessarily means that many of us mostly or only read and critique women writing fantasy for other women. As Martin is a male adult fantasy author, bringing him up in respect to SJ/M is often inorganic–in fact, probably as inorganic as critique would be on an SJ/M-oriented blog, which is maybe part of the reason why they don’t critique him themselves. For me, there is incredible power in doing the work I see in the anti community–marginalized people coming at the same text with completely different perspectives, using our different knowledge and reactions to the books to spread awareness for other upcoming marginalized readers and writers in the hopes that the YA community at large (again, a community created/maintained by and for mostly women, non-binary people, and girls) will improve. This simply could not be done if our community was GRRM-focused or equally critiquing GRRM as we do SJ/M and other YA authors.

I also find it odd that though SJ/M blogs have expressed interest in seeing more critique of GRRM, they 1). hold anti SJ/M blogs responsible for doing that work (which some of us in fact do) instead of doing it within in their own community and 2). do not seem to seek out the plentiful and diverse ASOIAF/GOT blogs that also critique Martin. I regularly read plenty of ASOIAF/GOT meta blogs that both extensively praise and theorize about his books and offer intricate and harsh critique of his books. Almost all of these are run by women. The existence of such blogs evidences another main reason why GRRM doesn’t come up in anti SJ/M circles as much: the ASOIAF fandom doesn’t need antis because they know how to critique Martin. There is nuance in their conversations that I did not see in SJ/M’s fandom in the years that I was present. That being said, there definitely are Martin stans out there, and in my experience they come in two forms: white edgelord men who love grimdark and violence against marginalized characters, and white women who claim against all contrary evidence that Martin is a wonderful writer who knows exactly what he’s doing and deserves the benefit of the doubt because his books are ultimately progressive and feminist. Neither of these types of stans are anywhere to be found in the anti SJ/M community. This may be because I don’t check SJ/M stan blogs, but I’ve seen way more critique of anti SJ/M bloggers–who were hurt by both Mess’s and GRRM’s books–from stans than I have ever seen of Martin or Mess themselves, and it is often justified with the specific panem-et-circenses argument you mention, anon (ie, ridiculing antis for discussing Mess more than Martin instead of calling out who actually needs to be called out: MESS AND MARTIN). The situation is a lot more complex than “antis have double standards against Mess because Martin is a man.” At this point in my anti tenure, ASOIAF/GOT is the second most-discussed topic on my blog, closely followed by the likes of Casserole Eclair, JKR, YA drama, and random TV shows I’m watching. Seeing as I have been affected (often negatively) by many of these authors, I want to talk about it. I like talking about it. It’s how I engage with most literature, and I don’t see why that’s something stans look down upon.

#anti sjm #anti tog #anti acotar #stans being stans

81 notes · View notes

lyannas · 7 years

Text

No, I don’t hate GRRM, and I don’t hate ASOIAF.

It seems whenever I offer a criticism of ASOIAF and the way it’s been written, I receive a flood of messages asking me, “do you even like ASOIAF?” or “if you hate GRRM so much, then why do you read his books?”

Both types of questions are annoying and willingly ignorant.

I, along with many other people in this world, consume media critically. I search for flaws the same way I search for highlights. I make lists of what I like and don’t like. There’s a good chance that if I’m still talking about it months (or in ASOIAF’s case, years) after I had initially seen/read it, there is something about it that I liked enough to have latched onto it.

As a beginning ASOIAF fan I was extremely uncritical. I found nothing in particular to complain about except maybe a few minor grievances here and there. I romanticized ships like Rhaegar/Lyanna, I thought Jon Snow was a flawless character, I found every protagonist to be pleasant enough and every antagonist to be unpleasant enough.

As time (and GoT seasons) dragged on, some things I did not consider before were called to my attention. I read some meta. I browsed tumblr and reddit. I became more enlightened through reading these opinions and thought pieces until I slowly began to embrace some of these ideas and formed my own opinions around them.

I soon found myself bothered by the romanticization of Rhaegar and Lyanna. I found myself bothered by how often rape and sexual assault were introduced in the books. I found myself bothered by the depiction of the Dothraki, then later of the Dornish, Summer Islanders, and other characters that were depicted as PoC. When I was able to put those feelings to words, I received feedback both positive and negative. People agreed with me. People disagreed with me. I was corrected many times, I shared many back and forth constructive conversations, until I’ve reached where I am now, still sometimes wrong but a person with my own opinions and grievances on this book series I latched onto.

Why did any of this happen? Why I read and reread and learn and grow? Why did I introduce my criticism? Why did I bother at all? Because I love ASOIAF. I fell in love with the story, the characters, the complexity, the details, the worldbuilding, all of it, and I was not satisfied with the books alone, so I sought out more writings, more fans, a community where there is an exchange of ideas and where I could delve even deeper into the series than ever before.

The first thing I ever wrote that I tagged as “my meta” was a criticism on how GRRM wrote misogyny and sexual assault into the narrative but failed to address those issues within the narrative. I wrote that three years ago and I still can’t believe I did that, I can’t believe it got 100s of notes and that I got a dialogue going. The response was encouraging, because it told me that people are listening to me, people agree with me, there are others out there who love the books as I do but are also bothered by the same things as me! That’s crazy!

Yet somehow, this criticism of GRRM’s writing is often translated into: “oh, so you must hate GRRM”. No! I don’t! I hate how he wrote some parts of this story, but do I hate him personally? No! Why would I? I don’t know him. I’m irritated at his writing choices, particularly with how he wrote race and sexism. Those two things are real things people like me and millions of other deal with everyday, so when one of us say “hey, I’m bothered with how he wrote the Dothraki as a dark-skinned barbaric horde with no personality traits except Rape and Violence” it is not the same thing as saying “I think GRRM is toxic waste, should be sealed in a lead drum and buried 20 feet underground”. Stop translating criticism, especially that which comes from a personal place, as some sort of thesis on the man himself. It’s insulting and reductive and just says to me “hey, your points make me uncomfortable and/or I don’t understand it, but I did see you mention GRRM a few times in your writing so it looks like you have something against him”. It tells me that you missed the point completely.

So please folks. I beseech you. Stop doing that. Stop derailing. Stop believing that those of us who criticize ASOIAF are part of some crusade against this 69 year old white dude. He’s never harmed us personally, I assure you. He wrote some amazing literature that we have all eaten up and eagerly have been waiting for more, we’re all a little bored here, and he’s given us lots of time to reflect on the flaws and isms of his writing. Let us do that without assuming that we’re all waiting with pitchforks outside of house ready to skewer him Oberyn-vs-Mountain style because of something we didn’t like.

Moreover, if you read something that you disagree with, don’t take it personally. Either build an argument in return or let it go. Stew over it with your friends or alone, idc. Just don’t go stomping into inboxes derailing the OP’s post with ad hominems and red herrings, okay?

I once joked that I love the books so much that sometimes I hate them. ASOIAF is like that best friend I get along with really well, but then they say something racist or catcall a woman on the street, I have to yell at them until they learn to behave again.

Anyways, thanks for reading, and please don’t make me write another post like this again. Please.

212 notes · View notes

joannalannister · 7 years

Note

How do you think the Wheel of Time series deals with feminism? On the one hand, we have many female friendships, female rulers, Rands love interests are more than love interests... On the other hand, there are situations in which menare abused by women, and it's treated as something funny (Mat's rape by Tylin comes to mind). And I hate that "man becomes a badass by accessing a power usually reserved to women" trope

Hi! There’s a lot to unpack here. I guess I would start off by saying that Wheel of Time isn’t perfect. For me, the things RJ did right outweigh the imperfections, and that’s why I enjoy it, but I definitely understand that that’s not the case for everyone.

It’s definitely true that in WoT, men are abused by women. In my opinion, RJ wanted to explore what it meant to have a matriarchal society, where you get a lot of women in positions of power, but you also get some women abusing those positions of power.

If you’ll let me turn this around for a minute, we could say something very similar about ASOIAF. There are (many) situations in which women are abused by men in ASOIAF, and sometimes, such as Drogo raping Dany, it’s not even critically examined by the text at all. Does that undermine the feminism of ASOIAF as a whole? Opinions vary on that topic. Most people argue that it’s not the presence of abuse in fiction that’s a problem, but how that abuse is depicted.

I don’t necessarily have a problem with authors who write abuse into their texts. For me, the issue is how an author depicts things like rape or abuse. Note that RJ wrote about rape and abuse happening to both men and women. For example, Morgause was raped repeatedly and it’s treated as something horrific. Rand’s horrible treatment by Aes Sedai is also treated very seriously by the text.

But like you mention, people like Elayne initially think Mat’s rape is something funny, and RJ could have written that better. However, before Mat and Elayne part ways in Ebou Dar, Elayne realizes she was wrong to think of it as funny, and she apologizes to Mat, and she even draws the analogy back to our own world for the reader, saying something like “Hey, if this was an old widower king doing this to a young girl, this wouldn’t be funny at all” and when I first read that in the late 90s, it made me think more about male victims of sexual violence, and how it’s not really funny. And RJ did this while still keeping it all PG-13 (tbh I think I might have read the Ebou Dar part when I was 12), so it isn’t something that I view as utterly terrible, even though I think that yes, it could have been better. However, I understand that not everyone feels this way about Mat’s rape, and I totally understand if that’s something that turns people off the series.

(I read AGOT maybe a year or two later, and Dany’s rape (which, like I said, isn’t critically examined in the text at all) only made me upset. It didn’t inspire any critical thought on the subject at all. So if you wanted me to rank them, I’d say ASOIAF is worse, given everything that it is and tries to be.)

I hate that “man becomes a badass by accessing a power usually reserved to women” trope

I’m not sure if I understand what you’re referring to here, but if you’re referring to the One Power, I’ve never viewed it this way. Saidin was always something that belonged to men, and in their hubris and unwillingness to work with the women, they lost this power. Over the course of the series, men redeem themselves and realize how they can’t go it alone and how important it is to work together, and they win it back. If we view the One Power as, like, the essence of life, how is that reserved for women? Isn’t that, like, our common humanity, and everyone should have access to it, and it was a great tragedy on the part of the men that they tainted it, and a great victory when they got it back clean? I guess I don’t understand the criticism here.

How do you think the Wheel of Time series deals with feminism?

When it comes to evaluating a piece of media, I don’t go into it with a feminist checklist, like, 1) Does this pass the Bechdel Test? 2) Does this pass the Mako Mori Test? 3) How many rapes are depicted, and to whom, and how? and so on and so forth.**

Instead, I ask myself, how does this piece of media make me feel? What does it make me think about? What impact or relevance does it have on my life? Art is a very personal, emotional experience, and that’s ultimately a major part of how I evaluate it.

Some time in the late 90s, maybe 1998 or 1999, I dressed up as Moiraine Damodred for Halloween. I got a fringed shawl embroidered with flowers, and a necklace from Claire’s that I pinned into my hair, and I raided my mother’s closet and found a blue and green long plaid taffeta skirt that tied with a big bow. I probably looked a mess, but I felt like I could do anything.

Characters like Moiraine and Nynaeve and Egwene and Elayne and Aviendha were amazing to me. They could be main POV characters in a fantasy story instead of sidekicks or minor characters. They got POVs. (Oooooh gosh, when the little girl I was first got to the Moiraine POV in book two, that was amazing.) Unlike characters like Daenerys Targaryen, Moiraine didn’t even have to be abused first!!!! Moiraine and Nynaeve could literally work to save the world!!!!! And they didn’t even need to be raped first to do it!!!

I liked reading about all of these characters. They were my friends. I liked reading about women who were leaders in their communities, who overcame obstacles, who grew up and performed miracles.

Is The Wheel of Time perfect? Fuck no. Rereading it as an adult, some parts of it feel very juvenile and simplistic to me. But hey, RJ was trying to keep it PG-13, whereas someone like GRRM is definitely not. I loved Wheel of Time when I was a kid, and I hated ASOIAF at that age. (Some books have to come along at the right time in your life.) Wheel of Time doesn’t stimulate my mind as much as it did when I was a little kid. It doesn’t always do well with a lot of issues that are very important to tumblr, because RJ was an old southern baby-boomer.

But Wheel of Time made me feel good about myself as a 13yo girl, and it gave me some great female role models that I still admire to this day. That’s enough for me.

***One of my all-time favorite movies, The Shawshank Redemption, passes none of these criteria. I’m probably forgetting somebody, but the only women I can remember are the pinups on the prison cell wall. It’s probably not feminist at all. But I don’t care. I like the emotions it inspires in me. I like how it makes me feel at the end. That’s all I want.

ASOIAF is probably more feminist than The Shawshank Redemption, idk. What I do know is that I don’t like how ASOIAF makes me feel sometimes. After reading about so many rapes, and so many dead mothers, and so many women being abused, ASOIAF makes me feel tired sometimes. ASOIAF makes me feel like the fantasy genre is unfair sometimes.

And sure, sure, we could talk about how ASOIAF is more realistic than Wheel of Time, we could talk about how ASOIAF has more complex female characters, whose problems more closely align with what real women relate to, and yada yada yada.

But ASOIAF makes me angry and sad and frustrated. Why doesn’t the Unnamed Princess of Dorne have a name, and how can I talk about her politics when I don’t even know her name? Why did so many women die in childbirth in GRRM’s world, when I did the calculations and it’s statistically unlikely for there to be that many? Why isn’t Dany’s rape examined more critically in the text? Where are the female friendships depicted on the page? Why aren’t there more lesbians, and I’m not talking about Dany’s situational homosexuality or Cersei raping Taena or the passing mention of Essie and Sylvenna Sand, and for that matter, why do Dornish women have to be depicted as exoticized and hyper-sexualized???? I’m angry and not in the “patriarchy in Westeros is dehumanizing and you should be angry about it” way that GRRM intended. I’m angry and sad at GRRM’s writing and his omissions and sloppy depictions, and how he could imagine what I consider to be the richest fantasy world I’ve encountered, but he couldn’t imagine things like the Princess of Dorne’s name!!!

Wheel of Time, for what it is, never made me feel that way.

#theswordofglass #replies #wheel of time #wot meta #wheel of time meta #rape tw #abuse tw #about me #personal #lannister thoughts

100 notes · View notes