#like idc him suddenly snapping out of it and having perfect morals is boring. force him to actually change his mind and grapple with it

[bitimdrake]

(re: your tags here)

do you know if any character has ever experienced "pit madness" in canon, or if it was completely fabricated by canon? (i know it's a thing on the cw shows, but i'm pretty sure the jason headcanons came before that)

OKAY it's been twelve years since you sent this, but I'm back to dc brain so let's go.

So if the question you're asking is if a character has ever experienced something that fits the common fanon applied to Jason--an effect referred to as "pit madness" that lasts for years after being dunked in a Lazarus Pit, causes sudden bouts of dissociative rage, and may or may not make eyes glow--the answer is a flat no.

But if the question is if characters have experienced any negative aftereffects of the pit, the answer is yes definitely!! If your story has something that can bring back the dead, it's gotta have drawbacks. (Though on occasion a character will avoid all drawbacks entirely.)

The Lazarus Pit is a magical plot device, so it has a range of effects depending on the story. But they can be divided into three categories, which map to three distinct narrative purposes:

Uncontrollable violence and anger right after being dunked, BUT!!! for minutes at most. A Lazarused not-Bruce gets dunked and then flies back to Gotham in Batman & Robin, and Damian explicitly says that he can't possibly still be under the effects of the pit because it would have long-since faded after an international flight. Cass goes through it in Batgirl, and is snapped out of it in like one minute. Dinah starts canary-crying her head off and nearly killing her friends in Birds of Prey, but she gets knocked out and is totally fine once she wakes up. (narrative usage: for heroes who will soon return to their status quo)

A long-term shift in personality towards, vaguely speaking, something more evil--but specifically after repeated exposure. Ra's's continual usage of the pit is on-and-off theorized as part of the reason he is the way he is. This effect might be referred to as madness by some characters, but, you know, not the angry type of "mad". (narrative usage: for villains)

Extreme awful fringe-effects, typically on bodies that were way too far gone for the pit to be a reliable method of resurrection. It's why Bruce was (at least?) once extremely against his parents being dropped in, because who knows what might have come out. Mr. Freeze used the pit for his wife in Batgirl and she came out a firey rage monster reanimating zombies. Sometimes bad shit happens. (narrative usage: for minor characters who will be quickly dispatched)

The overall outcome is that (a) characters are very nervous about using the pit, because there's a chance it might just turn its victim into a horrible twisted evil version of themself forever, and (b) when that doesn't happen, the victim is pretty much fine after a few minutes.

Just maybe don't make a habit of it.

Jason Todd Addendum: Contrary to popular fanon, Jason never even went through the first option! (Nor, obviously, the third.) He was one of the lucky ones to come out of the pit seemingly normal. The pit never gave him any anger! at all! ever! His anger is 100% homemade!

However, Talia in Lost Days notes he's disconcertingly cold and uncaring, which could be an indication he's experiencing option two despite only going in once--but that could just easily be explained by trauma. We'll never know for sure.

#* #ask #anon #*dc #dc #dc comics #dc meta #keeping this post to just general information #but since i get to go on tangents in the tags... #just wanna mention that my hatred of the fanon 'pit madness' is not because the concept of the pit causing rage is bad #i DO think there should be a significant drawback here #honestly the fact that 1 is so mild kinda fucks with the narrative and makes you wonder why people don't use the pit more #which is only somewhat balances by the risk of 3 #BUT NO the reason that i fucking hate the fanon #is because it is 100% used to exonerate jason of actions that in canon he took WILLINGLY and OF HIS OWN VOLITION #he was not forced into any of it (by magically pit means nor by human manipulation) #he decided to do that stuff because it's what he wanted to do #and ignoring that is imo sooooo much less interesting for the character and story #like idc him suddenly snapping out of it and having perfect morals is boring. force him to actually change his mind and grapple with it #(not to mention that this made up 'oh but he wasn't in control' shit is often used to unfairly throw others under the bus #when their actions DO make sense in the context of canon jason doing bad shit intentionally) #oh fuck this tag ramble was long oops #...fine #jason todd