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karamazovposting · 4 months

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On Ivan and bipolar disorder (part two)

Before continuing from where I left off in part one I have to say something: I go over some heavier stuff in here. Nothing that isn't already present in the book and that I haven't seen mentioned in other people's metas, but I still want to give you a heads up: the main focus of part two is suicide/suicidal ideation and childhood trauma. I mean, this is a The Brothers Karamazov meta about a bipolar coded character so I think you all already knew these things were going to be in here, but I think that if you have bipolar disorder or are close to someone who has it some things could be upsetting or remind you of some unpleasant (to put it mildly) experiences. Writing certain things hits me at least (though not in a triggering way), but I think it's important to touch certain topics as they are core topics when it comes to bipolar disorder and it's impossible to talk about it without going over the ugly stuff. I've also been on meds and in therapy for years and I'm doing fairly well in life now so that's all in the past. Anyway don't worry, this is the only part of this essay that includes these topics.

This said, here's what I'll go over in this post: mostly what Ivan says in The brothers get acquainted, Rebellion, and The Grand Inquisitor, focusing more on the former two than the latter, as I personally find a particular passage of The brothers get acquainted to be one of the most beautiful and bipolar things I've ever read and we need to talk about Rebellion to further understand Ivan's inner world. The Grand Inquisitor isn't really that useful in this case but there's one thing that caught my attention.

As I already said in part one, The brothers get acquainted is the chapter that made me decide that Ivan is bipolar coded. I've even written a specific part of it down and read it to my therapist because I am, in fact, clinically insane. At this point I don't think I can hide how biased I am anymore, not that I ever really tried anyway, so I'll start by saying that this is my favorite part of the whole book. It may seem strange because it seems like such a small and simple chapter: it's not The Grand Inquisitor, it doesn't have the dreamlike atmosphere of Cana of Galilee or the chaotic passion of Delirium; it's not the courtroom scene or the epilogue. No one's getting murdered or hallucinating the devil or getting falsely accused, just Ivan talking about himself and letting us see his humanity like we had never before. We get to know him in the same way and at the same time his own brother does.

Why is this, in my opinion, the most crucial passage? What does it tell us? This is the first window on Ivan's inner world we get and the first thing it tells us, through Alyosha, is that there's a significant gap between how other people see Ivan and how he actually is. I mean, we already had a glimpse of that in the previous chapters through Miusov, Dmitri and even Fyodor, but Ivan was never there. The difference here is not only that Ivan is present, but also that Alyosha managed to see right through him in a way the others didn't, and it's telling that Alyosha asks Ivan if he'll get angry and feel insulted after hearing what he picked up on, considering that it's just that Ivan is after all a regular twenty-three year old. Alyosha even tells him he's nice! The thing is that Alyosha thinks that to Ivan the offense wouldn't be in what he managed to see in him, but in the fact that he managed to see it in the first place. I think I'll go over this and the other characters' perception of Ivan in part three because it doesn't really fit with this part's themes and also I have a feeling this post will get long even without it (sorry!).

Ivan is not angry at all though, he's amused and he takes this opportunity to open up; after all he did say he wanted Alyosha to get to know him (and viceversa!). I think it's important to note that he ends up pretty much monologuing for three chapters straight, almost as if he's used to bottling up his feelings and keeping his thoughts to himself (I'm pretty sure it's actually stated somewhere that he does, I had some little notes I wrote in my phone mentioning something like that but my notes app crashed before I could save them and I can't for the life of me find it in the book, but I swear it's there).

Here we get to see Ivan's rather unusual attitude towards life: he's not actively suicidal in that moment, but he doesn't exclude the possibility of suicide later in life, and not only this is a very bipolar feeling on its own, but the origin of this feeling and the way he explains his reasons also are. Ivan is very tired, both physically and mentally, it's stated multiple times through the novel, but he doesn't necessarily hate life even though he has mixed feelings towards it; on one hand he says there is no kind of misery, no matter how deep, capable of making him want to stop living (after all, bipolar disorder is all about bouncing back up no matter what), but on the other hand he's repulsed by life and that's why he describes his lust for it as inconvenient and against logic. He wants to live but he hates that he wants to live and he knows he'll eventually get tired of it and just quit, and it's something he feels very strongly, all of it. The thing that really sticks out to me and that struck me is that his passive suicidal ideation is very thought out (unlike Dmitri's which feels more impulsive to me but that's another story for another post), like he's gone through miserable periods of his life several times (I mean, the narrator does also say it) and he came to the conclusion that yes, this is bearable, but only for a limited number of years. He says he asked himself a thousand times if it's worth it and after a thousand times he gave himself the illusion of choice: I will kill myself but I won't succumb to my misery, I'll just be too tired to keep living, it will be my choice. With Ivan (just like with bipolar disorder in general) it's all about control and it's something that hits very close to home to me to the point I had to stop reading to stare at the wall and go he gets it. He really does, this is a very common sentiment and experience among people with bipolar disorder and that's why it's sadly one of the mental disorders with the highest suicide rate (and most historical figures with bipolar disorder I know about actually did die by suicide). The constant up and down is exhausting and that's exactly the feeling Ivan's words gave me, he describes the bipolar experience so well I was genuinely impressed considering The Brothers Karamazov was written and is set in the second half of the 1800s, when psychiatry and psychology were just starting to be born. I think it's also important to mention that he doesn't really give himself much time either: he's only twenty-three and he set his own life to end at thirty. It's only seven years, but seven years can seem like an infinite amount of time when you have to deal with what we have to, especially if we consider my interpretation of Ivan and his childhood. What do I mean by that? I mean that this is about to get interesting (and kind of personal).

Now, in the past almost two-hundred years, no one has still figured out the exact cause of bipolar disorder as the exact mechanism behind it is still unclear (to the point we don't even know why the meds used to treat it work, we just know that for some reason they do) but it mostly comes down to two factors: genetic and environmental. It's usually a mix of the two and it's most likely that once again it varies between individuals, but a very common bipolar experience is the one of a traumatic and overwhelming childhood: many of us had to deal with a mentally ill parent growing up due to the genetic factor and many of us went through so much stress and trauma that the end result could be nothing but bipolar disorder. And this is where Ivan's character stumbles in: I think his protectiveness towards children and his impossibility to accept their suffering stem from his impossibility to accept his own traumatic childhood. Let's be clear, all four brothers had a traumatic childhood, but Ivan seems to be the one who's most impacted by it. Dmitri was abandoned by his mother at the age of three and his father forgot about him (just like he forgot about Ivan and Ivan also seems deeply affected by that considering how he reacts when Fyodor doesn't remember Aleksej's mother was also his own), Pavel never got to know his due to her death in childbirth, and Aleksej's only memories of his mother are fuzzy and dreamlike, which leaves Ivan as the only one who actually has clear memories of his mother: an ill woman who probably couldn't take care of him and his little brother properly because of that and who died young (very traumatic for a child); he probably still remembers her screams. There's a very well written post about how each brother was affected by their respective missing mother figure so I won't go into that because there's no need and it doesn't really fit in here, but I think this is a very important part of Ivan's life that also obviously reflects in his adulthood (again, I'll talk about it in the future), and that we have to take into consideration as an example of what kind of pain a child has to go through to turn out a certain way.

But why am I saying this? I'll be honest with you: mere projection. Ivan's words on the injustice of children's suffering resonated with me so much, especially in relation to his refusal to accept God's existence in a world that allows such things to happen. As you probably figured, I'm an atheist myself and I am for the same reasons he is. There's a quote by Sylvia Plath, who also had bipolar disorder: I talk to God but the sky is empty. I won't elaborate because I don't feel like this is the place, but I relate to it a lot and I think it's applicable to Ivan as well. Mind you that I'm not here to talk about religion, I mean no disrespect and I wouldn't have mentioned my atheism if it hadn't been relevant, so please don't say anything unnecessary about that.

My projection went even further when I realised that Ivan is young (we're the same age actually!), what business does he have to be talking like that? Why does he talk like that but his brothers don't? But I also talk like that so here's that and here's connecting the dots, as I started doing a couple paragraphs ago.

Symptoms of bipolar disorder on average start manifesting during early adulthood, which checks out because Ivan is twenty-three. But he already seems to have a lot of experience "on the field" and it's unusual for someone that age, so it got me thinking a lot, mostly about my own experience. I was "lucky" enough (I still haven't figured out if I'm being sarcastic or not, as it can be both a blessing and a curse, how ironic) to develop symptoms way earlier than the usual onset age of twenty-five, which led me to being diagnosed and starting treatment as a teenager (blessing, the earlier you start treatment the more effective it is on the long run), but which also means I was a terrified child fighting for my life on a daily basis (curse, for obvious reasons) and I thought that maybe Ivan's background could be similar to mine considering what I said earlier about his very strong feelings towards the suffering of children; it's still projection but at least it makes sense. I genuinely don't know how common this experience is, apparently cases like mine are quite rare (I've had this disorder for most of my life), so I guess I also take some sort of comfort in Ivan's character due to this.

And with that, we're done with both The brothers get acquainted and Rebellion, so where does this leave The Grand Inquisitor? As I said earlier, there isn't much to say about it in my opinion when it comes to the point I'm trying to make, but there is one particular thing that I noticed: Ivan thanks Alyosha for listening to him, he thanks him for caring. I found it very sweet but also quite sad and I think it's useful insight about how Ivan lives his life and his relationships with other people. If everything goes as planned, part three should be mostly focused on that and Ivan's particular (and partially self-inflicted) loneliness (which is also tied to how other people perceive him, I already mentioned that, I know) so I won't talk about it now. I also want to highlight that Ivan makes a joke! It's not the usual kind of joke he makes though, as we previously see that Ivan's humor consists mostly of taking the piss out of people he doesn't particularly like or agree with, this time he makes a lighthearted joke about his poem that isn't at the expense of anyone ("that's plagiarism") and he's even described as being delighted in that moment. I personally found that cute and I think we don't talk about this side of Ivan enough.

I'll stop here because I think I covered everything I wanted to regarding these particular parts of the book. I'm not completely satisfied with this, but I got stuck for days because it was a little hard for me to write this part, I wanted to get it over with as soon as possible because I had to treat matters I'm sensitive about (hence the slight change of tone between this and my other posts, I noticed and I hope it wasn't too depressing, I tried throwing in some humor here and there), so I wrote in as little sittings as possible and I barely gave this a couple rereads, sorry. It feels more emotional than part one, which is something I am not a fan of but I'm not surprised and there isn't much I can do about it (other than fix my own discomfort with human emotions I guess but I'm working on it). I wanted to write this but at the same time I didn't but there was no way for me to completely exclude my personal experience as it's the main reason why I saw what I saw in Ivan and I'm writing this essay in the first place, but please don't dwell too much on it. I managed to edit most of it out anyway but still.

I wanted to go over Ivan's implied problem with alcohol as well and also the comparison with Dmitri (I mentioned him at the beginning for this reason) because I see the two of them as being two sides of the same coin, but I didn't really know how to include them (I think I'll briefly talk about the former in one of the next parts but I'm not sure how or when) and then I realised these topics can be treated together (as I think they're related) in a separate and more elaborate post that is not part of this essay, so look forward to that (and the rest of this long ass thing).

#writing this was a pain in the ass because I had to Expose Myself to a certain degree and I hate doing that #but now that I'm done I can finally move on to the other parts of the essay that don't make me think about my own life #the brothers karamazov #ivan karamazov #bipolar ivan karamazov agenda #thoughts #mine

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woozi · 3 years

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henlo yza <3 ,

hdjdkd i don't really have much knowledge abt different techniques & kind of dances so when the steps match the lyrics i'm like '!!! wow yes i love it' fhdjdjskks also bc i've grown up watching these kind of dances only so my that's what i tend to notice first hdjdjddk it is also one of the reason why i decided to stan svt dwc, oh my, thanks & our dawn is hotter than day's choreo details really impressed me.

maybe vincenzo is your svt club & ur so valid for that <3 hddjdjekek also pls don't say sorry!! you can talk abt it as much as you want i like knowing what you think. i'll let you know how was it for me when i complete it. & no homecha hasn't ended yet (idk if there are 16 or 14 eps i haven't checked) it does come on weekends, counting this sunday's ep, we're at 12th rn.

i get that fjdjdkkd i used to be the same 😭 always waiting for dramas to end so i can binge watch because not knowing what happens next would kill me. but idk when this happened, my will to watch anything died down bc the eps are just there, available for me to watch anytime. im like 'i'll watch it next time' but next time never comes 💀. this year i've watched no-air ones only hdjssj very surprising for me ( also my wack memory & svt content supports me by forgetting abt it after weekend ends dhdjdkkd) anyway i'm very excited to see how you like homecha!

CHURCH BOY JOSH HDHDJDDKKSLSDJ church boy josh, cringe domestic boy, joshua numbers. we've come up with so many nicknames for him in few asks only 😭😭 dbdjksksk deserve actually. BUT SO TRUE I STILL HAVE NO WORDS FOR HIM. THAT WAS- JUST- WOW OKAY WE SEE YOU 😭😭and dino lip piercing and hoshi eyebrow slit..... so sexy of them. cb concept pictures haven't come out yet & they're already shinning!! love to see that. also now we have gyu and hoshi's wedding reception pictures & cottagecore hannie (with that collarbone picture right in middle >:( wth mister but also hbd ig <3) being added in the equation.

IM CRYINGGGGGG THEY LOOK SO CUTE THEY ARE SO CUTE NOO 😭😭💔 HOW HAVE I NEVER SEEN THESE COVERS WTH (being the ex-directioner and all dhdjkdsksk). I SMILED SO WIDE WATCHING THEM <///3 it's been so long since i heard one thing wow lol. but! this means they know who zayn is. thank you for this jdjssk this is going to keep me happy for some time hdjdke. SUNDAY MORNING EHJEJEKE 😭 thank you <3 dndjdj

IKR???? IM SO EXCITED FOR THIS CB I'M ALSO EXCITED TO EXPERIENCE IT WITH YOU. agreee truly bless svt for helping keeping us from losing it over life (by making us lose it over them) tbh sometimes it worries me too with the way contents keep dropping but just now in these unit interviews being released, perf unit shared how they have ppl who encourage them to be okay with their tiredness. things like that put me at ease. hope they rest well from time to time too. honestly just looking at their tour schedules i used to get tired because these dudes used to have more shows and less day offs and some of them being used to just move from one city to another. i hope in coming years pledis changes that lol.

sameee for the poster release hdjdkeek. also even though there was scheduler, i forgot abt the concept trailer 😭 it was raining & bcoz of that power was out as well & i don't use data dhdjdkdk. i think 5 minutes after 12 kst power came back (you can say joshu's sparkler brought it back hdjdjdks) it literally left me speechless. yk that meme ' everyone remembers what they were doing & where they were when it happened ' that's me & you with this cb hfjdkd honestly that's everyone with this cb me thinks.

seventeenies bringing the grass to you w their posts djdjkd ( btw you can always tell me if silly little jokes get out of hand i wouldn't ever like to make you uncomfy) but seriously i hope uni doesn't give you hard time. don't worry much just keep moving forward, at some point whatever is making you feel stuck will move away eventually.

is it that obvious? 😭😭😭😭 no i don't like rain at all dhjddk (i actually didn't dislike it as much during teens) mostly because road drainage system sucks here & we live in lower area so even moderate rain causes water logging. i'd give you some rain but this one's bad so i won't </3 ( as if i could if it were the good one 💀) stay hydrated!!! drink two sips of water everytime you hear dino laugh, i hope it cools a little soon.

that's what being on tumblr since 2012 does to you 😭 ALSO UR SO FUNNY PLS, SO ARE THE MEMES YOU USE FOR ASKS DJDJDKD. *hands you bunny headband dino* it's dangerous outside take this, you too stay safe out there 😭😭😭😭 love you too <3 and thank YOU for hanging out w me hehe :3, also dw tbh these asks have become one of the highlights for me now & i'm only using my free time excluding resting time, i hope you are too, no pressure at all! dw about being late - 🪂

ps - did i tell you i actually followed your svt blog around the time everyone was guessing your biases hddjkddj i sent mingyu & jeonghan dhdjdj that was my first ask :3 - 🪂

henlo, 🪂!! <3 <3 <3

honestly it doesnt matter to me tbh <3 if people enjoy the dance its all that matters!! and omg i can see that!! i love the svteenies always bring something fresh to the table

omg that means you're near the end 😭😭😭 i keep seeing gifs of it on my dash and it makes me feel a lil lovesick ngl HJFHJFHD why is it so TENDER????????????????

ok but that's so valid too bc that's me rn with in the soop.... i literally have not watched the 6th ep yet 😭 and i'm getting the feeling youre mentioning w swf now because i literally always look forward to tuesdays just for the next ep HJDHJDS also i am dumb what are no-airs HJDHJDHHD and ur not alone tbh <3 i have also been super forgetful lately and that is not like me fdhjdfjhdfhjdfhj we're rotting in this hellsite ig

love bullying him i just wanna know how he'd react if he gets upset <3 i dont think we've ever seen angry josh and i wanna make him angry sm HSDHJSDJ im glossing over dino lip piercing to directly go over hOSHI EYEBROW SLIT BC HELLO??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ive never really liked eyebrow slits but he makes them look so- i want him to hurt me HJDSHJDHJDS ALSO THE LATEST SET OF PHOTOS OH MY GODDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD they're giving me what i've been asking for i love being here sm <3 soonyoung's so chummy w everyone have u seen his photos w jihoon last night 😭 he's literally tamed the actual tiger icb this. and no oh my god i do not Know what Collarbone Jeonghan is i have erased him from my memories thank u

HDSHDSJDSHJDS the ex-directioner is so funny to me 😭 i think we have all been there one way or another <3 and ofc omg <3 i'm glad my core svt memories make u happy HSDJHJDFHJHJDSF

they literally said escapism hELP ME 😭😭😭😭😭 i think they're also just workaholics in general. i would be too if i actually enjoyed what i did for a living 😭 and are we even gonna get tours in the near future.... this is so sad i havent even seen them irl </3

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OMG that's terrible, i hope u guys were okay though :/ AND NOT THE JOSH SPARKLER FDDHJFHDFHJFDHFDH now i have to think about him oh my god i think i passed out a little when eyebrow piercing josh came on screen and just full on blacked out when the match scene came on tbh 😭 JKSDJKDSKDS ITS LIKE THE PANDEMIC!!!!!!! WE WILL RMB!!!!!!!!!

ALSOO NOOO OMG i dont feel uncomf at all and u should also tell me if i do make u feel so <3 thank u for even mentioning that!! also love that they're Doing It All for us we dont even have to go out to touch grass anymore HJDSHJSDJ i've actually been v happy w uni omg!! just that i often feel stressed bc they give us sm things to do </3 thank u for ur kind words!!

that's the price of being an adult JDJSJKD now we gotta think of things like.. idk the effects of rain 😭😭😭 i used to even love it when it flooded as a kid HJDSHJSDHJ now i get anxious too!! i love all kinds of rain though so i wont mind JKKSDKJSDKJD just that other people might be affected </3 wish i had my own rain cloud on some kind of leash lmao. ALSO IF I DRINK WATER EVERY TIME I HEAR DINO LAUGH FDHFDHJDFHD gonna be bloated but hydrated af ngl

oh my gOD YOU WERE HERE SINCE 2012???? we're literally sick bestie <3 i genuinely think tumblr has changed something fundamental in me and my way of thinking has not been The Same as idk.. regular people ig JDSHJSDHJSD THE OFFLINE PEOPLE!! smth about tumblr is so <3 sick but also i love this hellsite so 😗 AND NOOO NOT THE MEMES FDHDFHJDF its my broken sense of humor and inability to convey emotions properly HHSDHJDSHJ

BUNNY HEADBAND DINO?????????????????????????????????????? honestly he'd bring me more harm than protection i'll say that much 😭

AWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW 🥺🥺🥺🥺🥺 that genuinely made me feel so warm & fuzzy, i always look forward to your messages too <3 <3 <3 i hope u always have good days u deserve it for being such a sweetheart

WAIT HELLO???????????????????????? YOU'VE BEEN HERE FOR SO LONG THEN 😭😭😭😭😭 and im so impressed you didnt get weeded out ngl HFDHJFDHJFD icb you've been witnessing me going more ill everyday <3 ur a soldier

and u are partially correct abt mingyu & jh <3 at least during the time JSDJDSJKSDJK i think i've been desensitized to mingyu now but i still love him sm <3 he's just so cute and cutesy boys kinda infuriate me in an affectionate way so HJSDHJDSHJDSH

#🪂 anon #anon #y.ask #long post

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