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esmeblaise · 5 years

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Dark Side Virgil theory's and hints below. Spoilers for the latest episode

Most of this has already been stated but with the newest episode out I wanted to compile all the things I’ve noticed into one post

So I was reading up on the Sanders sides Wiki when I came across this tidbit

“ At a con, it has been confirmed that there are at least two other Dark Sides. “

Two?

Deceit, __, and __

Deceit has been confirmed as the opposite of Patton. So the other two could be Logan and Romans opposites.

But what about Virgil?

Which reminded me of Accepting Anxiety Part 2 when Roman says

“You are nothing compared to the others”

Well he’s obviously talking about the Dark Sides

But the way he phrases it makes it sound like Virgil is part of that group

Virgil being a dark side has been theorized ever since Deceit came in

Specifically because they seemed to hold the most animosity toward each other and because Virgil figured it out first implying he knew how D operated more than the other sides (though this could just be Virgil always being on guard)

But the biggest clue was in the newest episode

The entire video was focusing on the past and how you shouldnt erase who someone used to be. While they were talking about Thomas mostly Virgil was playing the prominent role and in the end it turned out he was referring to himself and he doesnt want them to forget how he used to be scary (or dark)

The kicker is that it ends with Deceit appearing in Virgils room

The first thing deceit says is

“Good job Virgil... Your so.... Evolved”

And yeah Virgil has grown a lot, but then Virgil has a, annoyed, but civil conversation with him where it seems like Deceit doesn’t actually lie to him, but instead is just kind of rude. In fact at points it seems like he has to remember to lie. Deceit goes on to say:

“Oh Virgil you are hilarious Virgil, you always have been”

Deceit knows Virgil, and it seems like he knows him well. Even when the other sides didn’t get to know Virgil it seems like Deceit did.

As he leaves though he says this

“Keep up that personal growth Virgil, who knows? Maybe soon... you could be rid of us all...”

THIS

THIS LINE

While he could be talking about all the sides and thomas (thats a theory for another day) I believe hes talking about the other Dark Sides and is implying that Virgil is outgrowing the dark and is becoming a Light Side.

Theres one more line thats important though

When Deceit leaves Virgil mutters very quietyly “yeah you better run” and Deceit pops up again and say “What did you say?” which makes Virgil immediately freak out and yell “NOTHING GET OUT OF HERE”

Virgil has almost never freaked out like this

He usually makes a snarky comment or hides in his hoodie. But at this moment he actually seemed scared

While it could be anger out of Deceit being in his room it didn’t come out as angry or frustrated or even annoyed. It came off as desperate like Deceit would do something to Virgil if he stayed or found out what he said.

Which is very different than the “Can Lying be Good?” episode where he came up with snarky comments. The difference though, is that the other sides (and Thomas) aren’t there

Virgil has said that Thomas’s friends make him feel better. So wouldn’t Virgil’s friends work the same way? Make him feel safe when theyre against a common enemy? Like if Deceit tried to do anything the others could stop him?

It might be the late night fanfics talking but Virgil acted a lot like Deceit used to cause Virgil anxiety. Virgil even outright said that lying causes him anxiety and how they should never do it

"Embarrasing Phases” Showed Virgil how far hes come but it also reminded him who he used to be. He is afraid that who he used to be will make him lose that progress, those friends, his FamILY.

Its all because of the Dark Sides

Which brings me back to my original point

“ At a con, it has been confirmed that there are at least two other Dark Sides. “

Deceit, and Maybe Virgil?

But then the other two?

That would make four Darks and 3 Lights

Unless Virgil was one of those other two

3 and 3

Deceit and Patton

Someone and Logan

And

Virgil and Roman

Roman has stated multiple times that Virgil is the exact opposite of him and they have the most problems together.

But Roman accepted anxiety?

Virgil turned light

Does that mean theyre going to accept Deceit too?

They said the others were worse than Vrigil so I’m not sure

But two things for certain

Theres still at least one character to be introduced

And Virgil’s past and future are looking mighty interesting

#sanders sides #thomas sanders #virgil #deceit #dark sides #theory #spoilers

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sillyfudgemonkeys · 5 years

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Persona Problems: Apathy Syndrome, Mental Shutdowns, and Reverse Cases

Sooooo uhhh I can’t sleep so might as well ramble about this.

Comparing and contrasting the 3, ranting on why Mental Shutdowns are called Mental Shutdowns and why it’s stupid, and trying to fix PTS’ Reverse Cases.

An issue I’ve had with P5 tbh (I think I’ve talked about this before), but while thinking about it I realized that......my own idea of fixing P:TS’ Reverse Cases instead....made me realized some complications (I mean the complication was there to begin with but I’ll get to that).

Anyway I’ll save Reverse Cases for last since I’m sure most of you are only here for P3/5. 8U

So one thing that bothered me in P5 is.....the fact they call Mental Shutdowns well...Mental Shutdowns. I mean because....it’s just Apathy Syndrome (or at least, how it’s called by the public, “Mass Lethargy Syndrome, which we find out in P4D, as a similar case is happening there).

Well let me explain what each one basically is.

Apathy Syndrome. is basically when a person’s shadow goes on vacation in P3, and Nyx/Full Moon bosses be giving out those vacation tickets like Oprah when well....the Full moon comes around. 8U I mean technically the person’s shadow gets “eaten” by a Dark Hour Shadow (and yes it’s their shadow, MegaTen says “psyche” but it’s clarified more that by psyche they mean shadow). Basically, while there are technicalities in HOW the shadow isn’t in the person’s body, the fact remains it happens because the shadow is not in the body. As for what happens to the person, they usually go into a coma/vegetative state and will die without medical help.

Mass Lethargy Syndrome:

Now let’s look at Mental Shutdowns. It happens when a Shadow Self is killed.....ok.....so basically that means the Shadow is not there anymore. The Shadow is not in the body. Basically the same exact thing as Apathy Syndrome. What happens to the body? Same exact thing as Apathy Syndrome, they go into coma/vegetative state and will die without medical help. I mean sometimes they’ll die right on the spot for no good reason(ok maybe not RIGHT on the spot, stupid delay reaction Okumura....fudging things up), but of the 3/4 we saw, we know 2/3 (dunno if I should count train guy, but Wakabe and Kobayashi def count) died because they fell in traffic and not by whatever Okumura conveniently got. Also this doesn’t count Ichiko’s friend who was just in a coma, so it seems Okumura’s reaction is.....VERY rare. Btw fun fact, in P3′s 1st movie, something similar happens at a train station that mirrors Wakabe/Kobayashi, someone gets Apathy syndrome and falls in front of a train (I know it’s the movie, but the game DOES say there was a delay and the movie spells it out for us it’s cause of a body on the train tracks so.....there might be some weight to the movie).

Now PTS....I’m....I’m mostly gonna focus on Reverse Cases, I mean this anime has Apathy Syndrome but I don’t recall it (or I didn’t get that far into it), and the wiki states it’s when a Persona is taken or destroyed, while Reverse Cases (as well as Kagenuki) specifically mention Shadows....and I dunno it could be P:TS being weird again and not knowing how the relationship between Personas/Shadows work, but then again Kagenuki was used so that people could tell if that person has a strong shadow and thus strong Persona and....basically I don’t think the creators through it through or the wiki is missing some info. ANYWAY, Reverse Cases are similar, it’s where a Shadow is forcibly taken by another Persona user for a certain goal of summoning something more powerful by gathering those Personas (if any of you Arena/Ultimax fans feel like you might’ve heard something like this before yeah I think they repurposed P:TS’s thing), and when that happens the person is turned inside out! Whoops! Well that’s a bit different, but hey same concept, shadow leaving the body (THAT BEING SAID it’s understandable why it’s called something different, the outcome is different compared to AS and MS). (btw Kagenuki is where you pull a Shadow/Persona out but it’s used to relieve stress or some BS, it’s temporary and....it’s kinda more like you are forcing someone to summon their Persona rather than take it....unless you are discount Strega aka Marebito then they are trying to actually take it).

Fun Fact: P2IS I believe is the first place that showcases Apathy Syndrome (or whatever we wanna call all 3/4 of these things), as the character Yukino experience similar symptoms when her Shadow Self commits suicide. P2IS didn’t have a name for it but....just a fun fact. 8U

Anyway before I pick apart P:TS’ mess, lemme get back to P5. Why the fudge do they call it something different? Like I GET MS’ process is a little different, but the outcome is pretty much identical, esp to the public....who are the one’s naming the phenomenon. Like us the players know it’s different, one is caused by the Dark Hour and is temporary, the other is caused by Goro being an asshole and it seems like this one is a bit more permanent....BUT THE PUBLIC DOESN’T KNOW THAT! To them it should be “Apathy Syndrome/Mass Lethargy Syndrome has returned and a new phenomenon ‘Psychotic Breakdowns’ has emerged!” you could possibly connect them due to both showing up at around the same time, but calling AS something different? No, to the public it’s pretty much the same, people are becoming vegetables and we dunno how to help them. In all honesty, just because the way shadows are leaving people’s bodies are a bit different, I don’t think it warrants a new name...in fact I think it can be confusing “Wait isn’t it basically the same thing? How/why is it called something different?” it just raises unneeded questions. And no you can’t make the argument that ‘maybe AS wasn’t well known’ because 1) it’s mentioned later in P4D (and I think even in Arena), albeit by a different but similar sounding title and 2) even a small town like Inaba’s murder mystery was still being alluded to in P5 about 5ish years later in-game....and Iwatodai is a city and it was being talked about on the news A LOT.....so no it’s not a small town/city thing.

But...”Well why aren’t you complaining about P4D’s re-name?” Probably cause the rumor of knowing the cause of MLS vs AS/MS. MLS is associated with the cursed video, while AS/MS are unknown to the public..... Or maybe AS was just known as MLS to the mass public or it’s a phenomenon where a bunch of people fall to AS, I need to replay P4D tbh if there are additional details I’m missing, but the fact remains that, to the public, MLS has a possible root cause while the other two do not so it’s possible to let that slide....tho it brings up the fact MS should either be called AS or MLS.... Esp because there’s also the fact that P4D is probably taking place in Tokyo (P3/4/4D basically just call it “the city,” but I think it’s heavily hinted to be Tokyo, heck a quick google search lead me to a LMB festival look alike, aka Tokyo Idol Festival so....yeah 8U). Which makes it even more jarring for P5 since WE KNOW it takes place in Tokyo so why are they using two names for the same thing??? It’s like.....calling the Chicken Pox something like “Polly Pocket Pox,” same symptoms, we just feel like calling it something totally random and new now for no reason even tho it’s literally the exact same thing in everyone’s eyes. 8U

Anyway end rant on P5′s annoying alt naming, now for P:TS.

So.....Reverse Cases are a bit of a mess....both in the show (damn it be bloody) and.....lore wise (not new to P:TS bless its soul....haha soul....pun not intended). Lore wise it doesn’t make sense. I mean P3/4D/5′s way of doing it we basically have different ways of doing X1+A/B/C but we still get the same Y (basically X+A=Y, X+B=Y, and X+C=Y for P3/4D/5 respectively, X=a shadow leaving, A/B/C=the different forms aka Full Moon/Cursed Video/Goro-murders). RC is different, it’s end result is different even if say.....it’s the same as P5 (P5 involve another human harming another Person’s shadow so yeah). So with PTS, instead of X+C=Y, it’s now X+C=Z (Shadow leaving+basically stealing and absorbing the shadow=a person explodes).....so with PT X+C≠Y.....and that’s.....that’s some problems. Because PTS equates the shadow leaving with the person exploding (we’re ignoring AS in this universe cause....we don’t need more problems).

So....to fix it.....I originally thought “maybe add one more thing to the equation!” Have it be X+C+D=Z. With D= maybe the shadow goes berserk before it’s eaten and that’s how the person is exploded. Kinda similar to how Personas can turn on their user in P3 and strangle them....or in P4 the Shadow Selves....do something that kills them. I mean they both try to kill their hosts and seem to do different things to get the job done, and how they do it could result in a different outcome (P3 it’s strangulation tho not sure if traceable, P4 it’s unknown, PTS it’s explosion). There fix right? Nope.......I realized, thanks to P4 esp....there’s an issue....And this exists with how RCs already operate not just my fix it tweak. The issue is that.....once the person is killed, the shadow self (and by extension the Persona) disappears with it....

“Ok how is that bad?” Well the point of the RC are that the Marebito are gathering Shadows(/Personas) to make themselves stronger (and so that what’s his face can summon something, keeping it vague for spoilers but hey already dropped a spoiler so whatevs). But.....as soon as the Person explodes that Shadow should cease to exist. Rendering everything moot.

Which means we need to change PTS again, and we can do it a few ways thankfully! I mean you might have to rewrite PTS for some of the options but.....like it already needs rewrites so klnvkds;vna Anyway here’s what we can do:

No RCs! Instead it’s just Apathy Syndrome a new wave. What ain’t broke don’t fix it. Personas/Shadows are still stolen, but we just keep the symptoms as AS and just call it AS (or MLS, I’m down for either)

Might be an issue with getting the police involved, so either with the revamp have Shadow Ops be involved

Or make it so the police think AS in PTS has a different patter compared to P3′s so they think it might be a group or some BS.

Keep the RC, but don’t make it about stealing shadows/personas to make something stronger or summon something. Instead just make it about a (or a group of) serial killer(s)!

Either they just use their Persona to explode people

Or they utilize the Kagenuki to draw out the shadow self to do it for them!.

Use both 1 and 2, by which I mean I guess pull a P5 (aka have two going at the same time like P5 has with Mental Shutdowns and Psychotic Breakdowns, and RC could be the reason the police get involved), AS is when they steal the shadow, RC is when they wanna kill a person without the weird as time delay MS has at times.

I feel like I had more to say but it’s late and.....I think I’ll just end it here. 8V

#persona 3 #persona 5 #persona trinity soul #p3 #p5 #pts #tbh I should replay P4D cause I can't remember if Mass Lethargy Syndrome is the true public name for AS or #if they are doing what P5 is doing and calling the same thing by a different name #persona problems #persona 5 problems

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