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jackoshadows · 8 months

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Characters in the North for whom it's not looking good and yet I hope they make it out alive in TWoW:

Mance Rayder - Fandom often mentions Brienne or Davos as the rare good person in Westeros and I feel like Mance should also get a shout out. He is of the smallfolk, has faced discrimination and cruelty and his only objective has been to save his people. Plus, he's charismatic, clever and undertaken a difficult mission to save the Lord Commander's sister. Last we heard, as per the pink letter, things are not looking good for Mance and I wouldn't wish Ramsay Bolton on anyone - so here's hoping that the letter is wrong and Mance and his spearwives managed to escape somehow.

Wun Wun - Representation for vegetarian giants! Wun Weg Wun Dar Wun, one of the last of the giants doesn't deserve to die at the hands of Selyse' queensmen and I hope that he makes it out alive from the fighting that's going to be happening between Freefolk, Crows and Queensmen. The only folks on his side are Jon Snow and Leathers, a wildling, and last we see him he's getting slashed at with swords.

Cotter Pyke - A bastard like Jon Snow who can't read or write, and bold to confront arrogant nobles. A NW brother who follows orders no matter how much he dislikes it and vastly different to the likes of Thorne and Marsh. He stands up against Slynt during the election of the LC and sails to Hardhome on Jon's orders to rescue the Freefolk. Last we hear through his letter - dead things in the water - things are not looking good for Cotter and I hope he atleast knows somehow that Jon Snow did try to send help before things went south.

Wyman Manderly - Lord 'Too-fat-to-sit-a-horse' and his many chins is a much needed boost for the North and house Stark. Cunning and crafty, the character has many bad-ass moments including 'The North Remembers' and Frey pies. Not to mention his snark and barbs at the Freys - "Though mayhaps this was a blessing. Had he lived he would have grown up to be a Frey". Underestimated because he's fat (not by Roose...) Manderly is secretly plotting to put house Stark back on the map and I don't want to see him gone. However, things are not looking good for him at the end of ADwD, being slashed at by the Freys and seriously injured in Winterfell. I am hoping that we get to know he's still alive through a Asha or Theon POV chapter.

Theon Greyjoy - Things are really not looking good for Theon. He's not in good physical condition, hanging by his arms in Stannis' tent and the Northmen are calling for his execution. And yet, perhaps out of all of these characters, he has the most chance of surviving because the 3ER seems to be on the scene. Asha asks Stannis for death before the Old Gods and I think Bran is going to try and save him. I really need Theon to be around for Ramsay Bolton's demise and for him to meet up with Jon Snow, Bran and Rickon Stark.

#asoiaf #TWoW #Mance Rayder #Wun Weg Wun Dar Wun #Cotter Pyke #Wyman Manderly

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a-song-of-art-and-fire · 9 months

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Lord Wyman Manderly, Warden of the White Knife

"I am fat, and many think that makes me weak and foolish."

My second take on Wyman Manderly, this one is an adapted Craster mini - I pointed out when I painted Craster that the longsword felt a bit out of place for a guy who considers a Night's Watch axe an incredible luxury, and @happychappy439 pointed out it'd make a good Wyman.

I'm happy with that seafoam green tunic, although the trident could have been a little clearer.

I love Wyman as a character, his "North Remembers" speech is one of the high points of the series and gives me shivers every time. I love the way George plays off classic fat-phobic tropes with Wyman, then spins them around.

#asoiaf #asoiaf fanart #miniatures #minis #a song of ice and fire #valyrian scrolls #cmon #the north #house manderly #wyman manderly

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windriverdelta · 12 days

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On the Grand Northern Conspiracy

Somehow I have been thinking a lot about the Grand Northern Conspiracy, an ASOIAF fan theory that posits that in AFFC/ADWD the lords of the North and Riverlands are plotting to install Jon Snow as King in the North. Well, no time like present to write a comment.

TL;DR I find it extremely implausible and would very surprised if TWOW featured anything even resembling that. It's a far-fetched conspiracy theory.

First of all, as other people like @turtle-paced have pointed out, there are lots of barriers to communication between the supposed conspirators and no evidence that they could coordinate their actions. Now, there is evidence in Arya's ASOS chapters that the Brotherhood Without Banners has contacts to the Riverlords and one wonders if Jaime Lannister in AFFC is being deliberately steered to Brienne, but that doesn't mean the Northerners can do the same.

Second, where is the set-up for the Northern lords using Stannis like that? Late Walder Frey is amply established as a traitor, opportunist and oathbreaker two books before the Red Wedding, there is no foreshadowing at all for Mormont, mountain clans etc. This isn't Game of Thrones, spectacular betrayals do not come out of thin air in ASOIAF. In this context, it's worth noting that foreshadowing in ASOIAF usually takes the form of a few unambiguous meaningful events, not a lot of very ambiguous little things that can interpreted in multiple ways like the infamous "Corn Code"

Three, Jon Snow does not work very well as a fulcrum for such a conspiracy. Ignoring for a moment that nobody has bothered getting his buy-in for such a plot (what if he deems it dishonourable and sleazy and ices out all the participants?), there is no indication that any physical copy of Robb's will survived the Red Wedding. Remember, the various lords and ladies are referred to as its "witnesses", and most of them are now prisoners of the Freys. Look at it from a character's perspective: Two lords who somehow survived the Red Wedding, claiming that Robb wanted to make Jon king. Why would anyone believe them? Especially Jon Snow, who knows in ADWD that Robb was killed by his own men, he has no reason at all to trust Maege or Galbart. And without the will, Jon Snow would just be an usurper and deserter from the Night's Watch.

Narrative-wise, I don't see much foreshadowing of Jon being king in the north in the main series - all so-called "foreshadowing" I've seen are ambiguous allusions or far-fetched interpretations. I see no thematic or character purpose, either - I tend to think that R+L=J, the three dragons and his assassination lead into him being a dragonrider and fighter against the Others. In my opinion, the political side of the Northern storyline is Sansa and Stannis' job. And there is plenty of potential conflict around them without the need for a king in the north scheme.

But the big sticking point is that the actions of many of the supposed conspirators don't fit with theory. Just to cite a few examples:

Lady Stoneheart is not crowning Jon with anything but a noose, not in a million years, there is no evidence whatsoever that she's anything but a revenge zombie.

Wyman Manderly is entrusting Rickon Stark to consummate Stannis loyalist Davos Seaworth, which makes no sense at all if he planned to betray Stannis later - why would he risk Rickon becoming Stannis' hostage?

We have no reason to believe that Barbrey Dustin is lying about not liking the Starks - for one thing, Dustin troops are noticeable by their absence for the War of Five Kings, true to her word. She'll probably jump ship if Roose falls, but that's not the same thing as becoming a Stark restorationist. In fact, I could see her supporting Stannis to take the Starks down a peg.

People keep citing Lyanna Mormont's defiant letter to Stannis as proof of Bear Island not being truly on his side, but not only is she (as Jon points out) not in charge of House Mormont, we later see Alysane marching with Stannis. She almost certainly is in contact with Maege given her comments to Asha about her family; I doubt that this is a right hand vs left hand situation. I am not even sure that she has much of a retinue, either - the problem with Rickon above may exist here too. Finally, recall that in AGOT Maege challenged Robb, telling him that he was so young as to have no business giving her commands. The Mormonts don't let anyone boss them around, that doesn't mean that they are Frey Lite.

In short, this theory requires lots of poorly foreshadowed OOC behaviour to enable a rather pointless political ploy that doesn't fit the narrative very well.

#asoiaf #the winds of winter #stannis baratheon #jon snow #grand northern conspiracy #rickon stark #wyman manderly #lyanna mormont #alysane mormont #barbrey dustin #robb stark #lady stoneheart #anti grand northern conspiracy

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asongofstarkandtargaryen · 11 months

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I could see some of the robb's bannermen stepping into parental roles, for example wyman or his son wylis if he's freed stepping into a fatherly role for Bran/Rickon when they make back to winterfell or others like Jason Mallister or Tytos Blackwood could also end up in a similar position. Also while Edmure will have his hands full with his own kid, I feel he'll want to be there for cat's children and sweetrobin (please let him live George), especially after having lost his sisters so close to one another.

Wyman Manderly is such a loyal Stark supporter that he would make a great parential figure for the youngest Stark boys. He's the one who is trying to retrieve Rickon from Skagos. And also Bran singled Wyman out among the Northern lords as the one who treated him better than the rest:

Or they could go south to fat Lord Manderly. At Winterfell, he'd laughed a lot, and never seemed to look at Bran with so much pity as the other lords.

I bet he would like to have either Bran or Rickon under his influence (and probably would try to engage them with his granddaughters).

Jason Mallister and Tytos Blackwood also seem alright fellows but since they are lords of Riverlands they probably won't have as much interaction with the Stark kids as the Lords of the North.

Speaking of Northern Lords, what about Alys Karstark and her husband Sigorn? Both are personally indebted to Jon Snow so I bet they would be more than willing to foster one of his younger brothers in Karhold. Maybe it would the best choice for Rickon to go to a place where Northerners and free folk have mingled.

As for Edmure, I also believe that he would have wanted to be there for his sisters' children. And I really hope he can be there especially for sweet Robin. That poor child could use some relatives who actually care about him after being under Littlefinger's "care" for such a long time. Maybe he could invite his nephew to Riverrun for a long visit? Also, maybe Sansa could also be invited? (since among Cat's kids I could see Sansa being the one who would appreciate Riverlands and its culture the most).

#house stark #bran stark #rickon stark #sansa stark #valyrianscrolls #asoiaf ask #wyman manderly #jason mallister #tytos blackwood #alys karstark #sigorn of thenn #edmure tully #robert arryn

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dyannawynnedayne · 10 months

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Terros' Next Top DILF - Round 3

Davos: art by laurellerual, AWOIAF Page

Wyman: art from the Game of Thrones card game, AWOIAF Page

BRACKET LINK

#terros next top dilf #round three #wyman manderly #davos seaworth

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warsofasoiaf · 11 months

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Going off the recent Davos Seaworth question and which councillors he might have a decent relationship with, do you think Garlan Tyrell (and his wife, Leonette) would form a positive opinion of Davos, in light of his public praise for Tyrion Lannister throughout A Storm of Swords? Likewise, Wyman Manderly and Robett Glover seemed well-disposed towards Davos in Dance?

Additionally, do you think there is any chance Bronze Yohn Royce could have formed a good working relationship with Davos, under different circumstances?

The big thing is that for a lot of people, the idea of the class structure is baked into them from an early age. In our own history in the Middle Ages, the class structure was not only seen as right and proper, but divinely ordained. This isn't to say that everyone is bound by it, as we see numerous examples both in our own history and in Westeros, but the question is, what does Garlan think about the class structure. There's a sort of pragmatic bent to Garlan in the way he trains to fight, but does that translate over to class structure. Tyrion might face a lot of social stigma due to his physical formation, but he is still an aristocrat of the noble order, a true blue-blood. So while Garlan is far more decent to Tyrion, we cannot assume that it carries across the class structure. That's not saying that it won't, Garlan may be open-minded and practical enough to value the honest council and perspective that Davos can bring, but it might not.

Wyman was rather decent to Davos, but let's also remember, Davos can get something that Wyman *wants* in exchange. It's good business for Robett and Wyman to treat with Davos with decency, so he can go to Skagos and get Rickon, and hopefully work with Stannis to secure vengeance against the Boltons and Freys that murdered his son. So that is a huge contextualization of Wyman's actions. If the Frey escorts didn't believe that the criminal head above the gates of White Harbor was Davos, Wyman was fully prepared to murder Davos right then and there.

Bronze Yohn would probably be a big upholder of the class structure, the Vale strikes me as socially conservative. Maybe in the right circumstances Bronze Yohn might treat Davos well, but I think his negative dealings with Littlefinger (who is still a meager noble) might color him well against it.

Thanks for the question, Anon.

SomethingLikeALawyer, Hand of the King

#davos seaworth #wyman manderly #bronze yohn royce #garlan tyrell

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jozor-johai · 5 months

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Revisiting the Rat Cook, Part 1: The Best Pie, and Lord Lamprey

This is the first part of a series I've been sitting on for a while, where I'm going to examine the symbols and themes present in the "Rat Cook" story, as relayed by Bran in ASOS Bran IV, and search reappearances of those elements throughout the rest of ASOIAF.

This series is predicated on the understanding that these books are rich with intentional symbolism, metaphor, and allegory, and that the repetition of these symbols and themes adds to their meaning.

In general, the symbols that are present in ASOIAF are limited by their ability to be inserted into the plot of the story (i.e. if the symbol of a stag killing a direwolf is important, there must be a way in which the characters are able to encounter such a scene within the plot's context). However, the metadiegetic legends that exist in-world for the characters of ASOIAF are not beholden to the same restrictions, and because GRRM is able to invent these myths in their entirety without restrictions on any of the individual symbolic elements, we can trust that each separate element of these in-world myths was placed intentionally.

With that in mind, I believe we can use stories like that of the Rat Cook as a sort of "road map" when looking at the reappearance of these same symbols and themes elsewhere in the story; I believe the "Rat Cook" story is the most distilled example of these elements. I don't mean to say that every instance of "rats" references the Rat Cook directly, but that the Rat Cook story provides a place where Martin is able to use these symbols in their most abstract form and describe their relationship to each other, so that when we see them appear again elsewhere in ASOIAF we might better understand what we are being shown.

So, among other things, the Rat Cook story is about a rat which eats rats, or a cook who serves kings; The Rat Cook story is about fathers and sons, about cannibalism, about trust, about vengeance, and about damning one's legacy.

This is likely going to be a 9-part series, but ideally almost all of these parts will be able to stand on their own. Each post will inform the next as I build my analysis, but hopefully each individual post is also interesting in its own right.

RtRC Part 1: "The Best Pie You Have Ever Tasted" and "Lord Lamprey"

This opening part, for better or worse, is going to retread some well-discussed ground: the clear parallels between the "Rat Cook" story and the incident in which Lord Manderly serves certain overlarge pies in ADWD The Prince of Winterfell, a scene lovingly dubbed "Frey Pie". However, as well-established as this comparison is, I want to begin here so I can begin to introduce how a closer analysis of the Rat Cook themes are present in this uncontroversially parallel scene, and how they might add more depth to interpreting that moment.

Not only does the scene evoke the same imagery, serving pie to the Lords amidst conspicuously missing sons, but the connection becomes even more direct when Wyman Manderly looks directly to the camera and says, “Hey reader, if you’re wondering where those Freys are, think back to any scary stories you know about pie”.

Okay, he doesn’t actually say that, but it’s close enough, and as much of a nudge we’re like to get from Martin (and which still went over my head on my first read through). Instead he does the next best thing, cueing Abel to sing while staggering past our POV:

"We should have a song about the Rat Cook," he was muttering, as he staggered past Theon, leaning on his knights. "Singer, give us a song about the Rat Cook."

Manderly seems to acknowledge the similarities himself, and most have noticed as well.

However, making the comparison between the story of the Rat Cook and Manderly’s actions is particularly interesting in their differences.

There are many ways in which Manderly’s pies, as a mirror, are appropriately an inversion of certain elements in the Rat Cook myth.

Returning to the scene as we see it in ADWD The Prince of Winterfell:

“Ramsay hacked off slices with his falchion and Wyman Manderly himself served, presenting the first steaming portions to Roose Bolton and his fat Frey wife, the next to Ser Hosteen and Ser Aenys, the sons of Walder Frey. "The best pie you have ever tasted, my lords," the fat lord declared. "Wash it down with Arbor gold and savor every bite. I know I shall." “True to his word, Manderly devoured six portions, two from each of the three pies, smacking his lips and slapping his belly and stuffing himself until the front of his tunic was half-brown with gravy stains and his beard was flecked with crumbs of crust.”

Manderly takes on only some of the roles of the Rat Cook here. Despite his status as lord, he plays the role of the humble cook, personally serving Roose Bolton, Walda Bolton (née Frey), Hosteen Frey, and Aenys Frey, all standing in for the “Andal King”. In this way, the role of “Andal King” as someone who has official power and the role of “Rat Cook” as effectively powerless dissident are played out straightforwardly. Bolton and his allies are backed by their army and the authority of the crown while Manderly has no official backing of his own.

Wyman even physically resembles the Rat Cook; Wyman’s blue eyes indicate he is presumably pale, and Wyman is prodigiously large, to mimic the descriptor of “white, and almost as huge as a sow”.

However, like the “Andal King” himself, who had a “second slice” of his own son, it is Wyman Manderly, and not Bolton nor the Freys, who devours two portions from each of the pies. In this way, the roles have elements which are interchangeable.

Wyman is acting out both roles, which is especially interesting because in this comparison is a single most definitive contrast: The Rat Cook, most notably, is not punished for serving the pie, as "a man has a right to vengeance". Instead, he is punished for violating guest right.

Now, Wyman—who lost his son to the Freys at the Red Wedding—certainly has a “right to vengeance”, but betraying guest right is something which Wyman Manderly takes great pains not to do. Manderly conspicuously notes that he gave the three dead Freys guest gifts upon their parting, marking them as no longer guests under his roof, and subsequently, theoretically, freeing him to kill them. Manderly introduces the idea while Davos marks the distinction for the reader’s sake in ADWD Davos IV:

“The Freys came here by sea. They have no horses with them, so I shall present each of them with a palfrey as a guest gift. Do hosts still give guest gifts in the south?" "Some do, my lord. On the day their guest departs.”

The Freys, on the other hand, as executors of the Red Wedding, are the most notable violators of guest right, while the Boltons contributed their part as well; both are being punished for that sin by Manderly-the-Rat-Cook here, marking the inversion of the story. In this iteration, the party serving the pie seems to warrant no judgment; instead, the pie itself is the judgment, served as retribution. With that connection in mind, it's worth remembering the other importance of the Rat Cook story, based on its placement in ASOS and which I think has often been overshadowed by Manderly’s “Frey Pies” incident.

In the Rat Cook story, after the Rat Cook's punishment, he spends an immortal future forever eating his own descendants, a scenario in which Bran describes the rats of the Nightfort as “children running from their father”. That eternal, kin- and legacy- devouring doom does not just come secondary to the punishment, it is a part of the punishment following the violation of guest right, and introduces the notion of an entire family being cursed for that violation... and, for good measure, is brought up in ASOS Bran IV, chapter that occurs only a few chapters after the Red Wedding itself.

In one respect, this is just another reinforcement for the reader of the sanctity of guest right and of the laws of the old gods. Coming so soon after the Red Wedding, the Rat Cook story hints at the fall of House Frey. Walder Frey, most culpable violator of guest right, has apparently doomed the rest of his dynasty to death, punished for his actions, the way that the Rat Cook, too, is a patriarch who creates not only his own ruin but also the ruin of his progeny. Although Walder himself is not literally tying the nooses, it is Walder who has metaphorically become the father "devouring his children" indirectly through his ruthlessness. Wyman Manderly, then, is merely an agent of that doom.

On the subject of the Freys being cursed by violating guest right, only one of the named consumers of the pie, Aenys Frey, is truly mirroring the Rat Cook legend by literally eating his own son, Rhaegar Frey. Both Aenys and Hosteen Frey, on the other hand, are specifically called out in the scene as being the “sons of Walder Frey”. It’s appropriate within the mirrored Rat Cook motif to invoke Walder’s name as patriarch as well as the promise of other “sons” that might succumb to their father’s insatiable appetite for status; this sentence invokes the dynasty of the Frey household. Indeed, Walder Frey himself also has shared motifs with the Rat Cook: like the immortal Rat Cook, Walder Frey has nearly innumerable children and grandchildren, and he too seems to refuse to die.

If a named heir in Westeros is like the ASOIAF version of Chekov’s gun, then the Late Walder Frey is sitting on Chekov’s arsenal; once he becomes the late Late Lord Frey, it’s going to explode. If that happens in an upcoming book, then the Rat Cook story might be setting up the idea of how an eventual succession crisis of House Frey might further this metaphorical connection, with this doomed family turning on itself, each running from the shadow of their father’s legacy like the Rat Cook's children run from him in the Nightfort.

Lord Lamprey

Now, to push through a little more symbolic linking between the Frey Pie scene and Lord Manderly:

If we consider the “pie” element as a key part of the Rat Cook story, then seeing a “pie” specifically in the hands of Wyman Manderly prompts a connection with a noted favorite of Manderly’s: lamprey pie. As early as ACOK Bran II, we learn that:

“His own people mock him as Lord Lamprey”,

Interestingly, we see in that same chapter a telling metaphor considering Manderly and lampreys not in a pie:

“Lord Wyman attacked a steaming plate of lampreys as if they were an enemy host”.

Considering Wyman’s lampreys-as-enemy association makes for curious contrast later, in ADWD Davos IV, as Manderly is feigning allegiance with the hated Freys. Here, Manderly has just stepped away from the feast in order to secretly treat with Davos, and the food served may contain more meaning than at first appears:

“In the Merman's Court they are eating lamprey pie and venison with roasted chestnuts. Wynafryd is dancing with the Frey she is to marry. The other Freys are raising cups of wine to toast our friendship.”

The reappearance of this noted lamprey pie might take on more significance knowing that some of those eating it become a pie later on. The reminder of the association between Manderly and his lamprey pies seems even more intentional when the “Lord Lamprey” nickname conspicuously returns as Bolton’s men search for the missing Freys in ADWD Reek III:

"You did not find our missing Freys." The way Roose Bolton said it, it was more a statement than a question. "We rode back to where Lord Lamprey claims they parted ways, but the girls could not find a trail."

Invoking his nickname in this scene draws a connecting line between Manderly’s favorite pie, the “enemy host” of lampreys, the missing Freys, and “lamprey pie” being served as a symbol of the fake “friendship” between the Freys and Manderlys.

If that Frey-Manderly friendship is marked by mentions of lamprey pie, and Manderly loves to eat lamprey like he would eat an enemy, and we see in The Prince of Winterfell that Manderly apparently loves to eat his enemies, having two portions of each Frey pie, we might think that the Freys are being paralleled with Manderly’s favorite pie filling: lampreys. If that is the case, then comparing the punished Freys to lampreys is a scathingly fitting image, and I mean that literally.

Considering that carnivorous lampreys latch onto fishes to slowly eat the fish’s blood and flesh while the fish still swims, then looking at an image like this makes for some serious symbolic resonance if you consider the Tullys as fish (as they often are described) and the pie-filling Freys as pie-filling lampreys. It certainly provides a strong visual metaphor for the Frey’s “late” and half-hearted vassalage to Hoster Tully, how they dealt with Catelyn, and how they are now parasitically using Edmure—he sits in Riverrun at the end of ADWD, but with Freys latched onto him, bleeding him like they did his family.

This series is otherwise about pies and rats, not lampreys, but I will mention a few other interesting associations with lampreys that are worth looking into. The Stokeworths, when they are desperately trying to secure a match for Lollys, serve each of their prospective suitors lamprey pie, perhaps a signaling of the Stokeworth’s parasitic place at court, or the attitude towards their search for their daughter’s match. Note that in that context, Littlefinger remarks that he loves lamprey pie, perhaps fittingly for someone who has risen high by making use of his parasitic attachments to those more powerful. By contrast, when our intrepid advocate for truth and justice—Davos—is jailed after his return from the Battle of the Blackwater, he is served lamprey pie in the dungeons, but finds it “too rich” to eat. We have already seen that Davos has no stomach for the blind flattery that some of Stannis’ other lords have, and this scene describes that same character trait. I believe there are even further associations that are worth investigating, but for the sake of this essay, we must move on and end here for now.

In the next part, I'll focus on how it's relevant that the Rat Cook's pie and Manderly's pie were both allegedly "pork" pies, and where that reappears as well.

#asoiaf #a song of ice and fire #rat cook #asoiaf theories #literature analysis #wyman manderly #walder frey #RtRC

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