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moonybadger · 2 years

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It’s been a couple months since I finished rereading Outcast of Redwall and I still don’t know what the fuck BJ was going for with the Veil sections of that book. Like the narrative goes out of its way to say that it’s not the Redwaller’s fault for how Veil grew up and they showed him the same love and care they’d show any baby, he is just too inherently evil??? Weirdly, it doesn’t even seem to be making the point that it’s because he’s a ferret, like I think Bella is the only who dances around bringing it up. Most everyone else is like “well ferretbabe or not, that one’s got a taste for blood” after he bites his sixth person or whatever as a baby.

And honestly all the chapters from his POV are borderline unbearable to slog through, like he’s such an unpleasant mean-spirited person. While Swartt does technically more fucked up things (murdering various rivals, forcing one of his soldiers to force feed a entire dead crow to a fellow solider, his treatment of Sunflash, etc) Veil’s just feel more... personal and nasty? Especially when he nearly kills that grandfather dormouse who JUST finished telling him that his son and daughter-in-law were killed recently and that he’s looking after his grandchildren and offers to share what little food and shelter they have with Veil. Like Veil almost immediately just attempts to crack the guy’s skull open and he would have died if Bryony hadn’t found him. And the way he just beats those two foxes to death and sends their corpses down the river. Bryony’s relationship with him is just straight up abusive too, like I know he ultimately dies saving her at the end of the book but he had already attempted to murder her like... I think twice? And shown absolutely no remorse for it, like it’s just luck and tenacity on Bryony’s part that she and her mole friend survived at all.

It drives me nuts, cause MOST of the book is about Sunflash and Swartt! Like why is Veil even here??? Why is the book named after him, he isn’t even born until like halfway through the story! He barely interacts with Sunflash and Swartt, who I don’t think even remembered he had a son until Veil shows up in the last 30 pages of the book to call him a bitch. He doesn’t act as a narrative foil or have any kind of relationship with either of the two real main characters; like if you took him out of the book, thematically nothing would change. If you really wanna stretch it, I guess you could say that Sunflash came from a really terrible upbringing and turned out fine while Veil came from really kind, loving upbringing and he was evil as fuck? But that’s something you have to infer yourself, it’s not something the book is actively trying to say. You can headcanon that Bryony was just too young to act as a mother figure to him or that the Redwallers were cruel to him, but that’s really not present in the material at all. He’s just evil and horrible and it was ultimately a good thing that he died? That ends up being the point of his character I guess, to die and make Bryony a more emotionally intelligent person I guess.

I just don’t get it, it all ends up just feeling like a plot cul-de-sac that doesn’t go anywhere for anyone and doesn’t actually tie into the main conflict between Swartt and Sunflash beyond getting Bryony into place to help Sunflash out one time at the very end.

I’m also pissed because the Sunflash and Skarlath segments are genuinely some of the best in the entire Redwall series and I gotta suffer through Veil being a little bitch to get to all of them.

#tl;dr Swartt and Veil are just a watered down version of Ferhago and Klitch from Salamandastron #I think most of the plot issues would be solved if Bluefen were more involved in the main plot tbh #redwall #outcast of redwall #credit where it's due to BJ though the Veil segments are pretty much the only part of the series I actively hate #it's all even more ironic when you see that this book is sandwiched between The Bellmaker and Pearls of Lutra #which has the two best 'good' vermin characters in Blaggut and Romsca #though I've also got a huge soft spot for Groddil #bored badgering

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neverendingford · 1 year

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#so glad we're all in agreement about stanning Romsca #plus I stand by my assessment of her as a pretty unique Redwall character.#I want to go through and make a list of all the female vermin/villains because I feel like most of them are either magic or insane #though tbh most of the villains are certifiably insane so that's not saying much.#tag talk

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tinybookgirl · 1 year

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Most Tragic Redwall Deaths Bracket

Yes @captainmirefleck is running their villains bracket at the same time but I want to do one also so it’s time for tragic deaths. My poll results actually said heroes won but I had already started setting this one up so we’ll do that one next.

There are too many deaths to technically include every single one of them but I think I got all of the major ones. Polls will be 24 hours, and I’ll link them up here. All will be tagged ‘Redwall deaths bracket’.

Round One:

Lord Stonepaw vs. Laterose of Noonvale Winner: Laterose of Noonvale

Brinty vs. Mother Mellus Winner: Mother Mellus

Rillflag vs. Flandor Winner: Rillflag

Friar Skurpul vs. Methuselah Winner: Methuselah

Bragoon & Sarobando vs. Log-a-log (Mattimeo) Winner: Log-a-log (Mattimeo)

Sanya vs. Russa Nodrey Winner: Sanya

Hillgorse vs. Abbot Mortimer Winner: Abbot Mortimer

Veil Sixclaw vs. Luke Winner: Veil Sixclaw

Windred vs. Fatch Winner: Windred

Urthstripe vs. Cregga Rose Eyes Winner: Cregga Rose Eyes

Ranguvar Foeseeker vs. Finnbar Galedeep Winner: Finnbar Galedeep

Jukka the Sling & Fleetscut vs. Skarlath Winner: Skarlath

Mask vs. Felldoh Winner: Mask

Shogg vs. Piknim Winner: Piknim

Friar Hugo vs. Romsca Winner: Romsca

Warbeak vs. Thyme, Clary, & Pakatugg Winner: Warbeak

Round Two:

Laterose of Noonvale vs. Mother Mellus Winner: Laterose of Noonvale

Rillflag vs. Methuselah Winner: Methuselah

Log-a-log (Mattimeo) vs. Sanya Winner: Sanya

Abbot Mortimer vs. Veil Sixclaw Winner: Veil Sixclaw

Windred vs. Cregga Rose Eyes TIE

Finnbar Galedeep vs. Skarlath Winner: Skarlath

Mask vs. Piknim Winner: Piknim

Romsca vs. Warbeak TIE

Special Tiebreaker Round:

Windred vs. Romsca Winner: Romsca

Cregga Rose Eyes vs. Warbeak Winner: Warbeak

Round Three:

Laterose of Noonvale vs. Methuselah Winner: Laterose of Noonvale

Sanya vs. Veil Sixclaw Winner: Veil Sixclaw

Warbeak vs. Skarlath Winner: Warbeak

Piknim vs. Romsca Winner: Piknim

Semi Finals:

Laterose of Noonvale vs. Veil Sixclaw Winner: Laterose of Noonvale

Warbeak vs. Piknim Winner: Warbeak

Finals:

Laterose of Noonvale vs. Warbeak

#Redwall #Redwall deaths bracket #brian jacques

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pitviperofdoom · 2 years

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Me reading Pearls of Lutra at age 10: Man it’s too bad Romsca died, her character development was so cool and it would have been awesome if she got to have a happy ending.

Me rereading Pearls of Lutra now; Man it’s too bad Romsca died because there is a 100% chance that she helped murder Grath’s family and it would’ve been cool to see her face consequences for that without dying for redemption.

#redwall #i have been having Fanfic Thoughts

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rainbow-hammock · 2 years

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Re-read Pearls of Lutra recently, did a few doodle throughout. Here’s Romsca and Rasconza.

#my art #redwall

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weaselandfriends · 2 years

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yo, so I checked out Rot, the Redwall fanfic you mentioned a couple asks back. I was struck by the fact that, compared to the "Bavitz" fics, it feels strangely more accessible, less overtly offputting, requiring only faded memories of a Redwall book or two and being very much SFW--all especially surprising by your standards, considering the premise of "the rot has set in and all bets are off, authorially". Some things I was interested in hearing your thoughts on:

- In keeping with the style of Redwall books as I remember them, there is no overt romance--the closest thing to it is Bristol's would-be engagement to Olly. Other cases that stood out to me were Roane's attitude towards Laramie, and of course the Alagadda/Vellis relationship.

- One of my favourite elements was the recurring motif of the "many blades", where by the end of the story many blades are given a long paragraph recounting their history. As the story unfolds and the many stories-within-the-story revealed, it becomes apparent that the cast's lives are much more closely connected than first appears, with Fentress in particular as lynchpin. Stories and blades, and the power they hold, are all closely interlinked (I'm surprised Laramie didn't stab Alagadda with the quill, but I suppose that would've been too on-the-nose). I loved the metatextual aspect where many characters' actions are influenced directly by the stories: Laramie imploring Jareck to "Remember Romsca", Bristol's use of the story as her means of escape, the many perhaps-lies Jareck tells, the vermin literally using stories as fuel by burning them, much as Alagadda's entire leadership method is to try and avoid the tropes of failed warlords in the stories she was told as a kid, and many more examples besides of characters trying to convince each other of the truth of stories (the word "Rot" itself is commonly used to refer to a mistruthful story). Jareck in particular is notably framed at the end with his face replaced by the stolen tapestry of Martin, as though he has become the embodiment of those stories, what's the deal with that?

- And where does Sosostris get her seer knowledge from, which seems to be unerringly on the mark as to what's happening theologically? How does that factor into the idea that all seers are frauds?

- The contrast between the vermin and the lizards is very compelling, with the lizards being your key point of dissonance from canon--at one point, it's alluded to that a reptile appeared only once in the original series, I think? Certainly I have no memories of lizards from those I read as a kid. I found it interesting how the natural food chain was brought to the fore with these characters--shoutout to that almost-title-drop where Laramie becomes conscious of the gore-covered/red sandstone walls of the abbey.

- Unusually for you, there are no chapter names, until ENDGAME/EPILOGUE. Was this just a stylistic choice to match the original books?

- Speaking of your usual style, I found the beat with the snake, Kennebec and Luce where you describe a "tableau" in your typical manner very funny.

- The Laramie/Alagadda conflict over creatures getting "what they deserve" (or, the goodbeast/vermin dichotomy) is reminiscent of Chili and the Chocolate Factory, which interrogates the same kind of pat moralising present in Roald Dahl's work as you do here for Jacques. Rot and Chili complement each other well, in my opinion.

- Rot's conclusion is fascinating, because after spending most of the story deconstructing Redwall, the ending conforms exactly to formula--typified by the Redwallers finally replacing all the rotten wood at the story's close, much feasting, etc. Alagadda notably is seemingly compelled to make every single mistake she initially sets out to avoid at all costs, with what happens with Conredd and so forth. Every single lizard dies. Your omniscient authorial voice is momentarily replaced by Sully-as-recorder(-as-author?), I don't remember if that's specifically a recurring element in the books. I also wasn't sure of the significance of the final epilogue with Jareck in the south.

- Why the fuck were you pretending to be a League of Legends player?

Very glad to have read this story, you perfectly recaptured the prose style as I remembered it--this may not be an all-time great story or anything, but to paraphrase a review of the first twenty minutes of The Transformers: The Movie (which consist of a slaughter much like the one in Rot, narratively speaking, intruding on the formulaic, tame status quo), it's "like the best [Redwall book] ever", providing that same sense of a "perfectly fulfilling and conclusive ending" you describe the Homestuck Epilogues as having, the Final Word on the setting.

I have not thought much about Rot since I wrote it, so I may not be able to answer all of these questions with as much certainty as I'd like. The questions I can answer:

Why were you pretending to be a League of Legends player?

I thought it'd be funny. I'm also a long time fan of professional League of Legends; many character names in my stories I've taken from pro League players (Marc El-Marghichi, for instance, takes his surname from Jonas "Memento" Elmarghichi, a Swedish player of Moroccan descent). More fun facts: In an earlier draft of Modern Cannibals, Z.'s older brother had an expanded role, accompanying Frederick and Mom Roddlevan to the convention to bring back Z., and in his POV scenes he was depicted as a professional League of Legends player who was struggling to stream on hotel wi-fi. I've also kicked around the idea of writing a sports story where the sport is League of Legends, which would probably feature Z.'s brother in a major role.

Why no chapter names?

This is a question with a probably more interesting answer than you expected. Prior to Fargo, I didn't use chapter names at all, for any of my books. My 2012 novel about Luxembourg, for instance, uses a Shakespearean Act/Scene naming system (where chapters would be named, say, Act II Scene III), and my 2013 novel about the Rodney King riots names each chapter after that chapter's POV character, similar to Faulkner's As I Lay Dying. The problem I found when writing Rot was that the chapter index on ffnet looks really stupid if you have unnamed chapters:

So, when I wrote Fargo shortly afterward, I decided to give each chapter a title. I pulled the chapter titles from quotes from books I had read and as the story went on I started getting creative with what the quotes were referencing, how those references played with the chapter's content, and what tone the titles set, so the trend has stuck with me since.

Why no overt romance?

This is not unique to Rot by any means. Anything I wrote prior to Rot was equally devoid of overt romantic or sexual themes, mainly because I was extremely uncomfortable writing them. Up to the time I wrote Rot my media consumption was almost exclusively Western in nature, and Western media on the whole, unless it is explicitly billed as a "romance," often treats those elements as an utter afterthought, something that is not touched upon whatsoever until the male lead and female lead kiss at the very end of the story. Even when a Western work tries to be "sexy" it's almost always in a very clean, distanced, perfunctory way, merely evoking the aesthetic of "sexiness" instead of depicting any content that is actually lewd. (Or, in the realm of horror, the one area of Western media that is willing to get actually, tastelessly lewd, sex is usually depicted as something bad that is to be brutally punished.)

In 2014 though I started watching anime which for better or worse does not have any of those issues, and so in Fargo I was able to write a character like Delaney, who is aggressively sexual. But even then it was a difficult topic for me to grapple with in a serious way; there's a reason why the main characters of Fargo, Modern Cannibals, and Chicago are explicitly or implicitly uninterested in sex. The pornographic parts of CxC were extremely difficult for me to write, having never written anything even broaching pornography before, and I had to write and rewrite each one many times before I could come up with something that really had the ethos of porn.

Alright, now the questions that are specific to Rot:

Is Sosostris a real seer?

In Redwall, there are seer characters who are exposed as total frauds, and seer characters who seem to have actual supernatural insight into things; it depends on the character. Sosostris skirts the line, possibly unintentionally on her part.

Why lizards?

Lizards appear prominently in one Redwall book, The Pearls of Lutra, as the minions of Ublaz Mad Eyes. Lizards will also sometimes appear in other books as a one-off adversary. I kind of just plucked them out as an underutilized element of the books that I felt like I could expand on and flesh out more. The thing about the Redwall series is that it is extremely formulaic, and almost every element of its world has been probed thoroughly. But if you're just retreading all the same ground of the original work, why write a fanfic? This was also the impetus for why I decided to set Fargo in someplace completely removed from the typical Japanese urban landscape of the canon series.

Why is the ending so traditional to series, with the good guys winning and feasting and whatnot?

While I did attempt to delve into some elements of the series that were not explored, I was writing far too respectfully back then to deviate too far from its ultimate tone. Fargo is the same way; tonally, it's an exact match to the original PMMM, albeit more violent. What I wanted for the end of Rot was it to feel hollow or melancholic rather than triumphant. By the end of the story, Alagadda and Vellis are, if not sympathetic, characters with some depth, so their deaths aren't really moments to be happy about. Likewise, Jareck making out with the tapestry is the final melancholic nail in the coffin. If stories are important to the world of Redwall, that tapestry is the most important one, and Jareck pawns it off to a distinctly Renaissance Venetian city, suggesting a transition out of the pastoral medievalism of the Redwall series to the next historic epoch. Basically, a new time has come, and the world of Redwall has come to an end, even if for its denizens that end is a traditionally "good" one.

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incorrectredwallquotes · 9 months

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Romsca: Hm, really not as stupid an idea as your face would suggest.

#redwall #pearls of lutra #romsca #brian jacques

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rosauni-verse · 8 months

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in hindsight sagittarius and pisces having their big argument over pisces being very powerful but "not doing anything for the zodiac" and "being a coward" is extremely funny considering pisces is on like, year three of his personal underground mission to make the literal princess of romsca sympathetic to their cause and also accept she's a lesbian

#he just sort of fell into it okay. there was no planning involved #story hx #t #character jenny denekell #character pisces spur

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subterraneanexhibit · 2 years

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Day 436 & Participating in the "Drawing Geno Everyday Until He's in a New Game" challenge, hosted by Thinginator90 Geno: Day 233 #SubterraneanExhibit #subterraneanexhibit #Spikeye #drawingeyes #dailydraw #drawinghabit #dailydrawingpractice #dailycharacterdesign #dailydrawingchallenge� #doodle #dailydrawings #digitalart #drawingoftheday #drawing #dailydrawing #dailydrawinghabit #dailydrawing2022 #artoninstagram #art #artdaily #Geno #SMRPG #SNES #SuperMarioRPG #SuperMario #SuperNintendo #Nintendo #SquareEnix #retrogaming #retro https://www.instagram.com/p/ChGo-roMsCA/?igshid=NGJjMDIxMWI=

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captainmirefleck · 3 years

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everyone reading Pearls of Lutra:

#redwall #romsca #pearls of lutra #heart meme

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moonybadger · 1 year

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Trying to make a compilation of “good” vermin characters in Redwall, since I feel like the books get a little generalized in the idea that they’re always “all vermin are bad, all woodlanders are good” all the time. It is MOST of the time, but not as often as people say! Let me know if I forgot any, there’s a few of the later books that my memory is a little foggy on and I haven’t read Doomwyte or The Rouge Crew yet so I might have missed some characters from there.

Redwall - Squire Julian and Captain Snow (Captain Snow needs to be convinced, but still that’s better then most antagonists)

Mossflower - Gingivere and Sandingomm, old unnamed rat living alone on the beach (he was killed by seagulls and found by Martin and co), arguably Ashleg too, since he scarpered before the final fight and dreamed of living someplace peaceful. I think there’s also an argument for Verdauga, since even though he’s a conqueror he’s shown in a more positive light then Tsarmania, and Argular who seems like a neutral party at best but not actively malicious.

Martin the Warrior - maybe Wulpp? He gets spared by Brome

The Bellmaker - the LEGENDARY and beloved Blaggut

Outcast of Redwall - Bluefen obviously, but I guess we can include Veil in this (even though I really hate how his character was handled) Arguably the flock of crows attacking Swartt’s army as well, since they were doing it in revenge for their leader’s mother being killed.

Pearls of Lutra - Romsca, another legendary example. Graylunk as well; when he fled to Redwall he became good friends with Fermald the squirrel and trusted the pearls to her when he realized he was dying. I would also put forth an argument for Barranca (Romsca’s captain), since he seemed more interested in overthrowing Ublaz Mad Eyes to avenge his brother and because Ublaz was a dangerous, untrustworthy ruler rather then for a selfish desire for power.

The Long Patrol - I would say the two doofy foot soldiers Lousewort and Sneezewort, since they spend the whole book in over their head, don’t really hurt anyone, and then skedaddle before the final fight.

Marlfox - the water rat soldiers of the Marlfoxes seem eager to throw their weapons into the lake and give up their lives as soldiers. It’s implied that though some of them relished the power they had in the army, most of them were there against their will.

Lord Brocktree - Groddil is a little ambiguous, but the book absolutely supports his vengeance for his family and bodily injuries when he pushes Ungatt Trunn out to sea.

Taggerung - Sawney Rath is a REALLY fascinating character, who is a good if ruthless leader who genuinely cares for Tagg as a baby. He’s definitely a villain, with him ordering the death of Rillflag and Tagg’s kidnapping, but he has enough moments of genuine love for the kid that he becomes very engaging. The biggest injustice this book did was killing him off so soon, when they could have REALLY explored the depths of his and Tagg’s weird fucked up relationship.

Triss - Plugg Firetail and the crew of the Seascab. Again, not really GOOD per say, but Plugg was unusual in that he and his crew actively cared about each other and his crewmates were devastated when he was killed.

Loamhedge - Flinky and Crinktail are vermin mates who actually love each other! Flinky also ends up leading his group to a good location where they settle down permanently are implied to never resort to their previous bad ways again.

Rakkety Tam - We don’t know much about Askor, but he definitely is a far cry from the monster that is his brother. He comes off more as proud in the one scene we have of him, but not actively cruel. Same with their father, Dramz.

High Rhulian - while it’s definitely a stretch to call Lady Kaltag sympathetic (since she’s the queen of an island of slaves and all) her grief over the death of her son feels very real and visceral, as does her fall into madness over it; Especially when contrasted to the hare Cuthburt’s similar reaction to the death of his own daughter. And Jeefra is just so pathetic and his death is so brutal that it’s hard not to feel a little sorry for him.

The Sable Quean - Gliv and Lugg also aren’t really good people, but they fall into a similar category as Flinky and Crinktail, in that they’re mated vermin who actually love each other.

And just for fun, here’s some “bad” (or morally ambiguous) woodlander characters:

Mattimeo - Skan the shrew and his friends (abandoned the Guoism shrews to try and help Slagar, but he just made them slaves)

Mariel of Redwall - Pakatugg is pretty self interested for most of the book and pretty mean to Mariel, until his final stand with the Salamandastron hares at the end.

Salamandastron - Arguably Wild King MacPhearsome, just because it’s presented as a possibility that he’d kill Thugg and Dumble when they first hear about him

Martin the Warrior - FULL OF ‘EM TBH; we got the Pygmy Shrews (they keep slaves of their own and only free Martin and his friends because they saved the leader’s annoying son), the pack of murderous squirrels that make a game out of attacking people, the family of stuffy rabbits who try to scare travelers because they’re snobs, and the hedgehog who poisons people eating his cherries. And of course Druwp the bankvole slave who sells out the other slaves in exchange for food and luxuries.

The Long Patrol - interestingly I would argue that The Long Patrol itself is shown in a pretty morally ambiguous light in this book; Cregga’s battlelust is feared even by her hares and her mad charge after the Rabscallions is disapproved of by many of her officers. The price they all pay for the battle is very high, with the death of several major characters and Cregga being blinded. Russa even tells Tammo on her deathbed that it’s alright if he doesn’t join the Long Patrol, because he isn’t battle hardened and harsh like them. Tammo is an interesting contrast to the Long Patrol hares, because he’s easily one of the most sensitive warrior main characters in the series and there’s an indication that both he and Russano change Salamandastron to be less warlike and more peaceful when they return there.

Marlfox - Fenno the shrew, who kills Log-a-log, and the Gray One, a sly water vole who takes over Burble’s tribe and plans to steal the green stick from Song.

The Legend of Luke - Folgrim ate people

Lord Brocktree - while they are ultimately a force for good, I like how morally ambiguous Jukka was and how she and Fleetscut clashed over their ideals so often. Also Bucko is practically an antagonist until Dotti wins their competition.

Taggerung - Even though we never see him in person (alive), Nimbalo’s father is actively abusive, to the point where he’s driven both his wife and son away. Nimbalo does end up avenging him anyway though

Rakkety Tam - The Squirrel King and Queen are really not shown in a good light at alllll

Eulalia! - Orkwil Prink is a little shit hedgehog who gets banished from the Abbey for a season for stealing constantly. I remember finding him pretty unlikable, but in hindsight he does feel like a redo of Veil’s character if Veil actually learned any lessons (like Veil who was the son of a warlord, Orkwil was the son of thieves who abandoned him as a child)

#redwall #bored badgering #I feel like the morals of redwall get a little overgeneralized #by people who haven't read the books in 20 years

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