#anti val the wildling

[alaynasansa]

My opinion on some asoiaf ships

Jal ->

* They aren't gonna be endgame. Val is kinda a blank slate, even Harry Hardyng has more personality and he only appeared in a sample chapter + Jon dreams of an idyllic life with Val, but based on his own tastes, in his own image of what Val should be, and this imagined future is shattered the moment Val declares that Shireen, an innocent child, should be killed. Jon is rightfully disgusted "this was a Val that Jon had never seen before", this Val is the real one, not the one he had imagined, and Jon isn't attracted to the real Val

Stardyng ->

* I kinda ship them. Listen Harry isn't perfect, far from it, but he isn't significantly older than Sansa, he didn't abuse her, he didn't sexualised her (guys she's 13), he geniunely admires her qualities (her intelligence and humor), he apologized for his classism (and he hates LF so it's no wonder he didn't want to marry LF's "bastard daughter")

Starkpoole ->

* They're perfect, okay ? They need to heal and get justice and then to be happy together in Winterfell thank you very much

Ned x Ashara ->

* I'm of the opinion Ashara was Ned's teenage love. Cat was the love of his life, but in my headcanon he geniunely cared about Ashara and he repressed his memories of her. Just like his eldest daughter, Ned repressed a lot of his trauma because it hurts him too much. He only thinks of Lyanna when he's triggered by traumatic events like Sansa pleading for Lady or when he's injured and anesthetized by the milk of the poppy and he barely thinks of his own father and brother so it wouldn't be surprising

Jaime x Addam ->

* Why not ? Childhood friends and sparring mates. He's the only speaker Jaime trusts with his secret

Arianne x Daemon ->

* I don't mind them they seem happy together (though it's complicated since Arianne is the crown princess of Dorne and Daemon's a bastard)

Sansa x Dickon ->

* We know next to nothing about Dickon but why not perhaps it could work in an au

Robb x Jeyne ->

* Perhaps Robb is Sleeping Beauty. He's the one with the evil step-mom who wants to kill him and his family. Old Fairy Walder Frey is offended by the Stark-Tully family and curses 16 YO Robb. Seventh Fairy Edmure tries to save the day but it doesn't work. Anyway. Robb was young, he made a ton of mistakes, especially towards his own family, but he didn't want any of this, he didn't want to be king, he wasn't ready, he wanted to save Jeyne's honor, he wanted to do the right thing (unlike the show version). I want Jeyne to make it at the end but I'm pessimistic. They deserved better. I kinda ship them

#anti jal #anti jon x val #stardyng #sansa x harry #starkpoole #sansa x aegon vi #ned x ashara #jaime x addam #arianne x daemon #sansa x dickon #robb x jeyne #anti val the wildling #jon snow #sansa stark #harrold hardyng #harry hardyng #harry the heir #jeyne poole #eddard stark #ned stark #ashara dayne #jaime lannister #addam marbrand #arianne martell #daemon sand #dickon tarly #robb stark #jeyne westerling #asoiaf ships #asoiaf

[jonsaforeshadowing]

Jonsa foreshadowing of the day: Val being blonde

#anti jonsa #val the wildling

[inncorrect-starklings]

Val: Listen here you son of a bitch-

Jon: My mother, was, in fact, considered an immensely kind and well-liked woman.

Val: ...

Val: Your father?

Jon: …

Jon: Go on

#incorrect got quotes #incorrect game of thrones #jon snow #val the wildling princess #jon x val #rhaegar targaryen #anti rhaegar targaryen

[agentrouka-blog]

I think Val was cruel when she talk about how would Shireen have to be killed because of greyscale. Many had speculated that she will be responsible for killing Shireen. I don't think it would happen. Val was cruel but she is talking from Wildlings beliefs. She thinks that grey death will come with Shireen and she was worried about Gilly child. Moreover she knew if she killed Shireen she is basically risking her and Monster lives. She told Jon to keep her away from them.

I agree that it's a misdirection.

What the scene does is posit the idea that Shireen is a child in mortal danger from unexpected sources - while working in the reminder that she is Stannis' only cow child. Now the reader knows to worry about her, but doesn't necessarily worry about danger from the correct direction.

What it also does is firmly shatter Jon's little hallucination about the "warrior princess" and "worthy wife of any lord" that he'd tripped into during the beginning of the chapter - after spending the early parts of the book refuting that very thing because - get this - Val is a wildling with wildly a different culture and belief system. Shocker.

Turns out that means she also has wildly different values from Jon "Would prefer not to see children killed for any reason" Snow. He is not some special wildling whisperer immune to culture clash. It reminds us that Jon is very much fallible, and that a cooperative prisoner is not A Loyal Friend but a person under duress with goals and priorities of their own that do not match the Kindly Prison Guard's. Something that may have become obscured by Jon's own self-image as a "friendly Jon Snow trying to save everyone" rather than as Lord Commander of the Night's Watch supporting Stannis, who made the wildlings kneel.

It's also GRRM putting a "lol no" and a period at the end of the Val-as-a-potential-love-interest tease, because this is the part of the story where his Wall plot approaches the massive turning point that is his stabbing, and the ensuing departure from Jon's previous trajectory away from his point of origin. The rubber band will pull them all back home soon, the time for false leads and false directions is past.

It's time to enter the endgame now.

#jon snow #val the wildling #culture clash #shireen baratheon #misdirection #anti jon x val #jon snow critical

[badbedforbedding]

The reason why I don't care when salsa stans complain of this so called "fandom misogyny" towards their fav is because they are always the first ones to practice said misogyny with other female characters:

It was never about feminism or fighting misogyny, they just need an excuse to elevate their favs.

Sad and pathetic.

#asoiaf #anti sansa stans #misogyny #simply the trash of the trash #beware #val the wildling

[addamvelaryon]

Jon Snow essentially has 3 different reputations throughout Terros:

The first one is as a hardass. This reputation is well earned because Jon himself cultivates his own behaviour in such a way that he will be taken seriously. Due to his young age and his social status as a bastard, it became necessary for Jon to adjust his behaviour accordingly. Whether it’s the Mountain Clans or the Wildlings or the King’s Men, everyone at the Wall knows that Jon means business. Even across the sea, in the Free City of Braavos, they have such a view of him. He’s referred to as “the Black Bastard of the Wall”. His own friends are wary of him because of the way he starts acting once he’s elected Lord Commander.

The second reputation is quite unfair but he’s still viewed that way by some people: a traitor. Part of it does have to do with his time with the Wildlings/relationship with Ygritte. Though interestingly enough, the Wildlings also express sentiments that suggests they believe Jon betrayed them. But that’s not the only reason why characters consider Jon to be a treacherous individual. Even before he went beyond the Wall, he was viewed in a negative light, because of his father being declared a traitor. So the sins of the father are reflected in the son. There is of course the anti-bastardy stigma in Westeros as well and that too affects opinions on Jon. The Blackfish even accuses him of conspiring with the Lannisters, the enemies of his family!

The third reputation that Jon has came about completely unintentionally. People around Jon seem to view him as someone who sleeps around. This too is a clear result of their society’s derogatory opinion of bastards as being sexually promiscuous. When his Night Watch brothers insinuate that Sam or Satin are his lovers, they do it as an insult. Jon’s show of kindness towards his fellows who are also viewed negatively is turned against him by people believing there is some salacious intent behind Jon’s actions. Jon had only one lover and that was Ygritte. But his friendly interactions with other women, like Val or Alys, makes people (primarily other men who feel entitled to those women) suggest he must surely have fucked them. From Jon’s POV we can understand that in his interactions with Melisandre, he is very standoffish. But that’s not how it’s perceived by his Night Watch brothers. Jon himself acknowledges that they will whisper rumours about him.

#feeling in a very jon snow mood tonight #valyrianscrolls #asoiaf #asoiaf meta #meta #jon snow #text #I was ‘arguing’ with someone on twitter earlier and #it really struck me how much this fandom takes at face value all the negative stereotypes about bastards #but grrm goes out of his way to disprove a lot of these claims #even the idea that bastards want to usurp their trueborn relatives is contradicted by #the majority of usurpers in the story being trueborn

[amber-laughs]

Most anti lc!Jon people cite him being naturally suspicious/isolating to a fault as a leadership flaw which seems to hold up for marsh and the officers, however I'm on a reread of his dance arc and he's like...

Weirdly open about certain plans? In the scene where he sends Val to look for tormund, it mentions that Ed and Mully are both close enough to hear everything they talk about, as well as multiple unnamed sentries straight up watching them leave.

Val also mentions the baby switch THAT NO ONE COMMENTS ON implying that Ed and Mully already knew????

yes both great points, iirc it’s implied that melisandre knows about the baby switch too and i don’t think the men of the nw have any reason to suspect they’re switched and therefore don’t need an explantation. i don’t get that criticism either sometimes. i understand it in Feast for Crows when his friends are ragging on him for not spending time with them anymore and they’re right jon could communicate better with the people who have saved his life and been there for him when he felt more depressed than he ever had. but that’s more an emotional flaw rather than a political one.

"Once the free folk are settled in the Gift, they will become part of the realm," Jon pointed out. "These are desperate days, and like to grow more desperate. We have seen the face of our real foe, a dead white face with bright blue eyes. The free folk have seen that face as well. Stannis is not wrong in this. We must make common cause with the wildlings." - A Dance with Dragons - Jon III

he’s speaking to bowen marsh here and tho bowen goes on to disagree with him it’s no secret that jon is going to do it anyway and he just told him why. there are some things he keeps to himself, mance rayder chief among them, but what would have been gained from people knowing that? surely it just would have caused more chaos. and the loan from the iron bank, well iirc he didn’t have much time to share that info before all hell broke loose and even if he did, he is lord commander and is allowed and expected to make many decisions on his own especially regarding food and financing.

most importantly he’s more than clear about what the Real threat is.

"Winter is coming," Jon said at last, breaking the awkward silence, "and with it the white walkers. The Wall is where we stop them. The Wall was made to stop them … but the Wall must be manned. This discussion is at an end. We have much to do before the gate is opened. Tormund and his people will need to be fed and clothed and housed. Some are sick and will need nursing.” - A Dance with Dragons - Jon XI

this is the quote i chose but it’s not an isolated one. he’s never shutting up about these walkers of his. Old Nan would be so proud.

so does jon have trouble communicating? emotionally yeah. politically? not really, he could do a much better job of selling his point but he’s kind of a dickhead (affectionate) so he’s crisp and to the point but no, the night’s watch knows his reasons for wanting the wildings there, they just don’t like it. some of them for valid reasons might i add, they’re concerned about infighting and starvation, i understand them and am sympathetic but so is jon and that’s why he desperately wanted stannis’ men gone and a loan from braavos.

#asks #jon snow #night’s watch

[themockingpoint]

are you doing the game of thrones ask game? then answer 1-10

1) Edmure

2) Cersei

3) Assuming we are just doing the events of the series and not pre-aGoT I think I’d have to go Ned.

4) Between S2 and 3. Although after S5 I did stop watching, and only started back up mid S8. Also tbf I wasn’t really part of the fandom until then as well.

5) I’m sticking to cannon (within reason), so no crackships so I’m gonna say

Jon x Val

Sansa x Willas

Ned x Cat

Aegon x Arianne

Samwell x Gilly

6) Jon x Val

7) Sansa x Littlefinger

8) Sansa x Dany

9) Sansa x Ned Dayne

10) Hand: Sansa Lord Commander: Barristan Queen Consort: Margaery

#sansa stark #jon snow #edmure tully #Cersei Lannister #ned stark #jon snow x val #val the wildling princess #princess val #sansa x willas #ned x cat #willas tyrell #catelyn stark #samwell tarly #always conveniently forget that he was the one who pretty much singlehandedly saved sam from the actual bullies in the nw #gilly #Sam x Gilly #arianne martell #aegon vi targaryen #Arianne x Aegon #anti petyr baelish #anti sansa x littlefinger #sansa x daenerys #daenerys targeryan #ned dayne #Sansa x Edric Dayne #Sansa x ned Dayne #margaery tyrell #barristan selmy #ask game

[she-wolf-of-highgarden]

After watching GoT and seeing what they did to Catelyn, Sansa, Arya, and Gilly i’m kind of happy that D&D left Roslin Frey, Jeyne Westerling (Talsia is completely different person imho), Jeyne Poole, and Val alone. All of those women have such heart wrenching stories that it would have been such a waste to have them used for shock value like everyone else’s. 

#Arya Stark #Catelyn Stark #Sansa Stark #gilly #roslin frey #jeyne westerling #Jeyne Poole #val the wildling #antigot #anti d&d #ASoIaF #A Song of Ice and Fire

[butterflies-dragons]

I don't think antis know about meaning of 'willowy'. When Jon said that Val is a warrior princess not a willowy creature brushing her hair, willowy is not an insult. It means tall, slender and graceful. And Sansa qualifies as willowy brushing her and like knights. It seems like Jon throwing shade on Sansa, but why? Considering he liked her brushing Lady hair and he himself wanted to be knight. Why he subtly remember Sansa while differentiating her with Val?

This is what I wrote about Val and the willowy creature line a while ago:

Val

Repeat after me: Val is not a warrior woman. Again: Val is not a warrior woman.  One more time: Val is not a warrior woman. If you don’t believe me, then read this:

However, in my own defense, I should note that Dalla was not a “warrior woman” per se. She was from a warrior culture, yes; one that gave women the right, but not the obligation, to be fighters. Ygritte was a warrior woman, as was (most conspicuously) the fearsome Harma Dogshead. Dalla and Val were not.

[Source]

But you may say, ¿What about the “the warrior princess and the willowy creature that only brushes her hair” quote?

Well, as GRRM has stated many times, all his POVS are “Unreliable Narrators”.  Being from a “warrior culture” doesn’t make you automatically a “warrior woman”.  But here is Jon Snow “deciding” that Val was a “warrior princess”. Once again, the contrast, the dichotomy in one single person: ¿A warrior like Arya, a princess like Sansa?  Not that Arya has ever fought in a war, but you get my point.  And Sansa was created following the princess archetype.

I will show you one of my favorite Jon’s passages that will serve us to read “the warrior princess and the willowy creature that only brushes her hair” line with a better and more revealing light:

I call this passage the “Jon -It’s nothing special- Snow”.  Or as we say in Spanish when we can’t get what we really want: “Al cabo que ni quería”, that can be translated as “I didn’t even want it anyway”.  Let’s see:

"Oh, I learn things everywhere I go.” The little man gestured up at the Wall with a gnarled black walking stick. “As I was saying … why is it that when one man builds a wall, the next man immediately needs to know what’s on the other side?” He cocked his head and looked at Jon with his curious mismatched eyes. “You do want to know what’s on the other side, don’t you?”

“It’s nothing special,” Jon said. He wanted to ride with Benjen Stark on his rangings, deep into the mysteries of the haunted forest, wanted to fight Mance Rayder’s wildlings and ward the realm against the Others, but it was better not to speak of the things you wanted. “The rangers say it’s just woods and mountains and frozen lakes, with lots of snow and ice.”

—A Game of Thrones - Jon III

I mean… COME ON!  This is one of the most telling passages to know, to really know Jon’s true nature, and it’s very, very similar to the quote about “the warrior princess and the willowy creature that only brushes her hair”:

They are all convinced she is a princess. Val looked the part and rode as if she had been born on horseback. A warrior princess, he decided, not some willowy creature who sits up in a tower, brushing her hair and waiting for some knight to rescue her.

—A Dance with Dragons - Jon XI

“Some willowy creature who sits up in a tower, brushing her hair and waiting for some knight to rescue her.”  Nah, it’s nothing special, I didn’t even want it anyway, not for me, no.

“It’s nothing special,” Jon said. He wanted to ride with Benjen Stark on his rangings, deep into the mysteries of the haunted forest, wanted to fight Mance Rayder’s wildlings and ward the realm against the Others, but it was better not to speak of the things you wanted. “The rangers say it’s just woods and mountains and frozen lakes, with lots of snow and ice.”

Do I have to say more???

Actually, yes, I have.

Jon Snow does really want a lady.  Jon Snow does really want to be a knight and rescue a maiden.  Jon Snow does really want a lady to love and be loved back by her.  Here some evidence:

Jon Snow wished that his mother were a highborn lady: “Not my mother, Jon thought stubbornly. He knew nothing of his mother; Eddard Stark would not talk of her. Yet he dreamed of her at times, so often that he could almost see her face. In his dreams, she was beautiful, and highborn, and her eyes were kind.”

Jon Snow wanted to be a hero like the Prince Aemon Dragonknight.  The same Prince Aemon that jousted in a tourney, won it, and crowned his sister and lady love “Queen of Love and Beauty”, something that is straight out from the courtly love book: “The Dragonknight once won a tourney as the Knight of Tears, so he could name his sister the queen of love and beauty in place of the king’s mistress”.

Jon Snow tried to comfort Gilly with courtesy: “Gilly, he called me. For the gillyflower.”  “That’s pretty.” He remembered Sansa telling him once that he should say that whenever a lady told him her name. He could not help the girl, but perhaps the courtesy would please her”.

Jon Snow put Ghost between Ygritte and him and remembers that knights put their swords between their ladies and themselves, something that is straight out from the courtly love book: “After that he had taken to using Ghost to keep her away. Old Nan used to tell stories about knights and their ladies who would sleep in a single bed with a blade between them for honor’s sake, but he thought this must be the first time where a direwolf took the place of the sword”.

Jon Snow imagined romancing Ygritte as if she were a lady: “If I could show her Winterfell … give her a flower from the glass gardens, feast her in the Great Hall, and show her the stone kings on their thrones. We could bathe in the hot pools, and love beneath the heart tree while the old gods watched over us”.

Jon Snow wished for a domestic life in Winterfell, with his wife and children: I would need to steal her if I wanted her love, but she might give me children. I might someday hold a son of my own blood in my arms. […] I could name him Robb. Val would want to keep her sister’s son, but we could foster him at Winterfell, and Gilly’s boy as well. […] Mance’s son and Craster’s would grow up brothers, as I once did with Robb. He wanted it, Jon knew then. He wanted it as much as he had ever wanted anything. I have always wanted it, he thought, guiltily”.

Jon is a romantic that called his mare “sweet lady”.

Jon Snow closer friends in the Night’s Watch are Samwell Tarly and satin, they are literally male!Sansas.

Jon remembers fondly Sansa’s more feminine and ladylike traits: her romantic nature, her courtesies, her singing.

It’s also worth to mention that, despite Val’s beauty and physical attractiveness, Jon Snow, once again, appreciates her being maternal and singing to Gilly’s son, but was turned off by Val saying she would kill Princess Shireen:

“I have heard you singing to him.”

“I was singing to myself. Am I to blame if he listens?” A faint smile brushed her lips. “It makes him laugh. Oh, very well. He is a sweet little monster.”

“Monster?”

—A Dance with Dragons - Jon VIII

Once outside and well away from the queen’s men, Val gave vent to her wroth. “You lied about her beard. That one has more hair on her chin than I have between my legs. And the daughter … her face …”

“Greyscale.”

“The grey death is what we call it.”

“It is not always mortal in children.”

“North of the Wall it is. Hemlock is a sure cure, but a pillow or a blade will work as well. If I had given birth to that poor child, I would have given her the gift of mercy long ago.”

This was a Val that Jon had never seen before. “Princess Shireen is the queen’s only child.”

“I pity both of them. The child is not clean.”

—A Dance with Dragons - Jon XI

Wait a minute! Val was “singing to herself” like Jon’s memory of Sansa “singing to herself” while brushing out Lady’s coat???

Where did Jon get this idea of “some willowy creature that only brushes her hair” from???  It could be from his half sister Sansa, a literal princess, now trapped in a tower, that always brushed her hair and even brushed out her direwolf’s fur???

“She had brushed out her long auburn hair until it shone” —Sansa

“Her thick auburn hair had been brushed until it shone.” —Eddard

I often sent away her maid so I could brush her hair myself. —Catelyn

He thought […] Of Sansa, brushing out Lady’s coat and singing to herself. —Jon

And I also suspect that when Jon said this about Val:

Then Ghost emerged from between two trees, with Val beside him.

They look as though they belong together. Val was clad all in white; white woolen breeches tucked into high boots of bleached white leather, white bearskin cloak pinned at the shoulder with a carved weirwood face, white tunic with bone fastenings. Her breath was white as well … but her eyes were blue, her long braid the color of dark honey, her cheeks flushed red from the cold. It had been a long while since Jon Snow had seen a sight so lovely.

—A Dance with Dragons - Jon XI

He was remembering another pretty girl, princess like, next to a direwolf, looking as though they belong together.

A young beautiful girl, that everyone considers a princess, next to a direwolf???

Val is a beautiful young woman, Sansa is a beautiful young maiden.

Val has long blonde hair the color of dark honey which she wears in a braid. Val actually take care of her hair, enough to braid it, like Sansa that always brushes it. And if you google “dark honey” hair color you will find a variety of reddish brown (auburn) and reddish blonde hair colors.

Val has high sharp cheekbones, like Sansa.

Val’s eyes are pale grey or blue.  Again the grey/blue eyes pattern…

Val is slender with a full bosom, like Sansa.

So?

Then Ghost emerged from between two trees, with Val beside him. […] It had been a long while since Jon Snow had seen a sight so lovely.

Of Sansa, brushing out Lady’s coat and singing to herself.

Think about it!

* * *

For anyone interested, this is an excerpt from this post.

#anon asks #jonsa

[janiedean]

Do you think Jonsa is going to happen? I did read some meta about foreshadowing and it's a "squint if you miss it" but there is stuff. For example. Jonnel/Sansa stark in the family tree. People say the fact that Jon didn't care about Sansa being wed to Tyrion, compared to Arya being wed to Ramsay means he his repressing his painful memories and how he has a secret crush on her.

... tldr and sorry for the harshness: no, but if you want to go into the details, with no offense to anyone shipping it of course:

as I already recently ranted, jon and sansa are in two totally different brackets - jon is a main five, sansa is in the following bracket, jon has the entire chosen one storyline plus being the center of the entire story going on, sansa has the I want the love story and I'll get it plotline which does not mesh with jon's so there's that;

sansa's story arc is admittedly painfully clear in the beginning as in: if she thinks she's going to marry a beautiful gallant pretty prince and she thinks it's joffrey who is like attractive and LOOKS gallant but we all know how it went, then she's going to end up with someone who is the total opposite, also if she wanted to be queen in the beginning then it means she's absolutely not going to be in the end bc her entire arc is about realizing that everything she wanted in the beginning is not what she truly wants, and since jon is absolutely poised to get kingship, divide the kingdoms and fuck off to the wildlings after there is no way that her storyline meshes with his like that;

sansa's only viable love interests at this point on page are sandor and tyrion, the end, which by the way are, guess what, not standard attractive and are two people who need to overcome their trauma but never treated her unfairly, and like... denying that in the text sansa is attracted to sandor (she MAKES UP that he kissed her, she dreams he comes to her on her wedding night, she's all like AH BUT JUST *I* KISSED THE HOUND etc like sorry but that's a thing never mind all the knightly investment subtext) and that sandor is her love interest on text is imvho absolutely senseless - you can ship whatever you want and realize that canon isn't going there and write fanfic, no one is gonna stop you, and I can accept the endgame theory from sansa/tyrion shippers even if I think sansa/sandor is it, but sansa/anyone else is absolutely out of the question;

also sandor is the only one sansa thinks about using all the criteria ned used to describe the knight he would find her which was better than joffrey bless whoever went and did the search (brave gentle and strong) and she doesn't use neither of those terms to think about jon, like there's more evidence for littlefinger based on that and idt lf is gonna be her intended;

they think they're siblings and like I know that saying 'BUT THE INCEST' in these books is not like an automatic NO because there's canon incest and the rival ship ie j*nerys also would be incest but like one thing is jc which is not endgame and plainly described as abusive/unhealthy, one thing is targ incests which like the narrative generally is like HEY THIS WAS NOT A GOOD IDEA ABOUT and one thing is falling in love with someone you thought was your sibling and you grew up with like that the moment you find out you're cousins - that... doesn't work like that. and like while I don't have a horse in this race and j*nerys is hardly my ideal endgame sorry but it's a lot more likely that jon would end up getting with someone who he never met before, was the sister of a father he never knew and doesn't even consider his father and he had no relation with before than with... someone he actually thought was his sister, even if he finds out she's his cousin that doesn't change it;

'repressing painful memories' jon has zero issue thinking about catelyn or sansa not treating him great so idk what he should be repressing;

arya vs sansa question: .... well that's like getting close to the entire point but not getting it, in the sense that while jon didn't take wf because it belonged to sansa - but he said he would have if ygritte had been alive and stannis said he could marry her and not val which I mean... says all honestly - technically he made vows saying he renounced his family which is the entire fucking point re arya - the point is that he didn't give those vows up for robb but he would for arya which was the one he was closest to which is what makes everyone else kill him and no he wouldn't have done that for sansa because she was the only one who kept him at a distance, but...

the entire damned point is that they have to reconnect as siblings. sansa going back north (which is gonna happen) and jon being there and most likely getting legitimized/getting robb's will etc means that they have, as adults (or at least... well not kids) realize that how she treated him was wrong and that they can build a relationship which means that each single text reference to each other which is really nothing romantic™ is posed to tell you THESE TWO WILL BE THE STARK SIBLINGS MEETING FIRST and since they didn't have a close rship before they will forge one now, but that doesn't mean that they're going to be romantic endgame, because jon's point isn't having the uber romantic storyline and sweeping a maiden off her feet and sansa already has at least one love interest posed to do exactly that and while their sl are absolutely meant to intersecate on a sibling finding each other again level they are off when it comes to romance;

also a j*nsa endgame would... imply that she becomes queen of the seven kingdoms and they stay reigning there when sansa is absolutely posed to stay in the north and do her own thing and jon is posed to destroy the united-westeros-because-a-targ-did-it legacy (which like... great bookend bc first legit targ king unites it, bastard stark-targaryen king who most likely is keeping the bastard name undoes it) and he is going to hate each second of it, so it doesn't add up with sansa getting her happy love song fairytale romance... which again she can get from other people that the text strongly pointed at already.

so: no because it makes no sense thematically for either of them and for that matter I don't even think jon*erys is eventual endgame tho I guess it has to happen at this point given the show mess idk but if either of them had to be j*nerys would make a load more sense and I still think that a targ restoration with two monarchs keeping on being monarchs is not what a dude who is obviously anti-monarchy has in mind for the endgame. like no offense to anyone into it ofc but again it has zero textual basis for being romantic endgame and it wouldn't even make either of them happy bc jon is not sansa's gentle brave strong knight and sansa isn't the kind of woman jon is actually into (ygritte reminded him of arya I mean) and idt he'd get romantic feelings for his sister who he's going to think of in that terms anyway so there's my two cents. and I understand that it's not smth that a lot of people would agree with but take it up with grrm because he's the one putting that in the text and not me X°D

#1 #2 #3 #4 #5 #janie writes meta #anti-jonsa #anti jonsa #sansan for ts #sanrion for ts #asoiaf wank #guys please tag this anti-j. if you reblog bc i have zero interest in arguing about it #everyone can be into whatever they like ofc but idt this one makes textual sense #also half of the meta i see around is show truthing and honestly no #also i mean the only realistic dynamic for j*nsa that i can think of #is not a dynamic this fandom is ready to discuss or talk about #and nothing grrm would go for in the books anyway #sssooo #/shrug

[the-perfunctorily]

Who Killed Jon?

A meta post intended to (not very) seriously look at all the possible suspects in the Mutiny at Castle Black, and narrow it down to a few characters with motive, and means to be involved.

Wick Whittlestick slashed at his throat,[...]"For the Watch." Wick slashed at him again. [...] Then Bowen Marsh stood there before him, tears running down his cheeks. "For the Watch." He punched Jon in the belly. When he pulled his hand away, the dagger stayed where he had buried it. (ADWD, Jon XII)

We know for a fact that Bowen Marsh and Wick Whittlestick were part of the mutiny. But at least four people stab Jon, likely more. So, who were they?

This is intended mostly just as reference for myself as to who was where and when, and a fun game of clue, and mostly just speculation and headcanon to procrastinate on projects, and not really meant to be taken seriously (yes, I wrote 5000 words on a post that is not meant to be taken seriously. Such is life) I’m sure nothing I’ve put down is very revolutionary. We just like to have fun here.

This post also came into being because I think it’s very easy to imagine that it’s just Everyone that turns against Jon, which leads to a really bleak outlook for the Wall plot in TWOW. I’ve seen people worrying that Satin will be harmed by the other brothers, or that Val and Little Monster may be hurt, either by them or by Melisandre. These are all possibilities,  but I don’t believe that it’s necessarily true that Jon has no allies left. So I wanted to eliminate as many people as I could. When I get right down to it, I can only come up with 9 people who have either circumstantial evidence to suggest their involvement, or motive I can scrape together. So I believe there could be a solid pro-Jon contingent still at the Wall post-assassination, and his friends and vulnerable people he was protecting might not be doomed.

The suspect list is near the end in bolded large font so if you want to skip the long and mostly unnecessary eliminations, just scroll to there to see who I actually think might have been involved.

For formatting and clarity reasons all lists will be bolded, and I’ll bold every name at the point that I either count them in or out of the suspect list.

First off, I’m going to assume that Bowen Marsh was the main force of will behind the mutiny, and base my assessment of who was involved on who would ally themselves with him and what I believe to be his motives. This might not be true. He might just have been a participant, but I think he has the means, and the motive to have orchestrated it, and don’t see any other candidates for mastermind, unless GRRM pulls a complete Asimov ‘Mule’ gambit, which I will get to in my final suspect list. I think Bowen Marsh did not want to kill Jon, but believed he had to, for the good of the watch. I believe his anti-wildling feelings and traditionalist values were a big part of why he did it, and I think he did it to preserve the way he believed the watch is supposed to and has always operated. So people who hate wildlings, people who hate Jon’s radical policies and would want a return to how it was during Mormont’s command and before, people who are close associates of Marsh’s, and people who have personal reasons to hate Jon are my main suspects.

Now. To get started, I have to ask. Who would want to kill Jon? Fortunately, several people have openly threatened, or implied that they want to kill him in the past! Unfortunately, they all have strong alibis.

Ser Alliser Thorne: 

You'd best pray that it's a wildling blade that kills me, though. The ones the Others kill don't stay dead … and they remember. I'm coming back, Lord Snow (ADWD, Jon VI)

Alibi: is currently out ranging with Dywen, MIA beyond the Wall

Mance Rayder: 

I could visit you as easily, my lord. Those guards at your door are a bad jape. A man who has climbed the Wall half a hundred times can climb in a window easy enough (ADWD, Melisandre)

Alibi: is currently trapped in Winterfell on a mission to rescue ‘Arya’, allegedly imprisoned in a cage

Stannis:

 He only threatened to behead me twice. (ADWD, Jon I)

Alibi: Is snowbound in a crofter’s village about three days from Winterfell, and probably didn’t even really mean it.

Cotter Pyke: 

“Lord Snow," said Cotter Pyke, "if you muck this up, I'm going to rip your liver out and eat it raw with onions." (ASOS, Jon XII)

Alibi: Is currently having a very bad time on a boat near hardhome, on Jon’s orders, also probably didn’t really mean it.

That leaves everyone at Castle Black at the time of the mutiny. This includes Selyse, her household and knights, Melisandre, Tormund and his ~50 wildlings, and all the sworn brothers and recruits of the Watch.

I’m going to discount anyone in Selyse’s camp, despite them being at Castle Black at the time of the attack, and even present at the event, because Jon is Stannis’ principal ally at the Wall, and much as Selyse might dislike him personally, I don’t think she would involve any of her knights or retainers in a plot to have him killed. Melisandre might have the ability to take control of Selyse’s knights because they are all fervent believers, but she likes Jon, and thinks he is an important ally, so I don’t think she would do anything to harm him either.

Similarly, I’m going to discount Tormund and any of the wildlings he brought from Oakenshield. The mutiny was motivated partly by anti-wildling sentiment, and disapproval of Jon’s welcoming of wildlings south of the Wall, so I don’t think that Bowen Marsh would ally himself with them. Furthermore, the mutiny takes place right after Jon has given a speech endearing himself to the wildlings, I don’t think they would suddenly turn against him after cheering and swearing to come with him to Winterfell. This includes Borroq, who, though he speaks derisively to Jon, and Ghost reacts aggressively towards him and his boar, I think means no ill will towards them. I actually think he will be instrumental in facilitating Jon’s resurrection. For what it’s worth, I think most of his smugness and rudeness toward Jon is because Jon is not acknowledging his own warging abilities, not because of personal animosity. And Ghost’s aggression is more due to his past experience with other skinchangers (namely Orell the eagle trying to break his neck and then later trying to rip Jon’s eye out) being averse, than any sense of ill-intent. A lot of stock is put in the direwolves’ intuition about who means their Starkling harm, but in reality I think it is more based on the kid’s personal feelings that they aren’t acknowledging. Grey Wind wants to hurt Tyrion in AGOT despite him being innocent of the attempt on Bran’s life, but shows no ill will towards Lothar Frey, one of the main architects of the Red Wedding. Jon is suspicious of Borroq, so Ghost is, that doesn’t necessarily mean that he is an enemy.

I’m also going to exclude guys who are not explicitly stated to have died or been sent elsewhere, but for some reason do not appear in the ADWD appendix or the wiki as being at Castle Black during ADWD. These are:

Bass: The Castle Black master of hounds, I’m assuming he went on the ranging and didn’t survive, since nobody seems to be keeping any hounds at Castle Black anymore.

Red Jack Crabb and Rusty Flowers: Were supposed to escort Janos Slynt to Greyguard. Presumably they were sent there after his execution.

Rudge: helps Donal Noye fix Longclaw in AGoT, but is not mentioned again, nor does he appear in any other appendix. Maybe he died on the ranging, or was sent to another tower. Maybe he died of personal problems.

Ser Wynton Stout: Ostensibly commanded Castle Black while Bowen marsh was away with the Garrison chasing raiders and then fighting on the bridge of skulls. He appears in the AFFC appendix but not in the ADWD one, I’m assuming he died of old age somewhere between books.

Also not included in the appendix are the two unnamed recruits that were part of Conwy’s first group of prisoners, a barber “a greybeard leaning on a staff” and a brigand “some grinning loon who must have fancied himself a warrior” (ACOK, Jon I). These guys might have died during the attack on Castle Black, might have sworn their vows at some point during ADWD, or might still be recruits with Hop-Robin and Jace. But they aren’t named so I’m not going to worry about them.

This leaves the men of the Watch who are stated, or implied to be at Castle Black at the time of the mutiny for our suspect list. Here they are in alphabetical order, according to both the wiki and the ADWD appendix.

Albett, Alf of Runnymudd, Arron, Bearded Ben, Black Bernarr, Septon Cellador, Clydas, Cugen (or Cuger), Dannel, Sweet Donnel Hill, Duncan “Big” Liddle, Elron, Emrick, Fulk the Flea, Garrett Greenspear, Geoff the Squirrel, Goady, Halder, Hareth “Horse”, Three-Finger Hobb, Hop-Robin, Jace, Jax, Jeren, Kegs, Leathers, Left Hand Lew, Luke of Longtown, Matthar, Mully, Othell Yarwyck, Owen the Oaf, Rory, Satin, Spare Boot, Tim Stone, Tim Tangletongue, Ty, Tom Barleycorn, and Ulmer of the Kingswood.

Obviously there are probably more men than this, I don’t think it’s ever actually said how many brothers are still at the castle at the end of ADWD, but it’s probably more than just 40. (though maybe not by much? it feels quite empty there and everyone expresses feeling outnumbered by wildings and Kings/Queens men) However, this is a post about who, of the people we know, killed Jon. There isn’t much of a point if it’s unnamed stewards #23 and #17.

Next, I’ll remove people I believe like Jon and wouldn’t hurt him, and have no reason to suspect. However, I wouldn’t put it past GRRM to make one or more of these guys a mutineer for the emotional toll it would take.

Albett, Matthar, and Jeren: All of them were recruits with Jon that he never clashed with directly, they were even friends. Matt had Septon Cellador light a candle for Ned when news came to Castle Black of his execution and he was one of the boys that went with Pyp and Grenn to bring Jon back when he rode off. (side note, I find it very funny that these guys are all just At The Castle while Jon is doing his ‘woe is me the lonely friendless commander’ bit. Dude, half of your graduating class is standing right there)

Arron and Emrick, Horse, Jace, and Hop-Robin: Recruits that came to the Wall either right before or while the great ranging was gone. They fought alongside Jon to defend the Wall, and trained under him briefly. Horse lived in mole’s town and only survived the attack because Jon warned the people there, and he decided to take the black after the battle. I would imagine that he thinks very highly of Jon. When they are made brothers, the twins accompany Horse (and Leathers and Jax, all followers of the old gods) to the wierwood grove to say their vows despite following the Seven. They are all close enough in age to Jon’s friends and would have had lots of time to get to know them during the ranging. None of them ever knew the Old Bear, so wouldn’t have any nostalgia about his tenure as LC. They seem like the best candidates for Jon loyalists to me.

Duncan “Big” Liddle: As the eldest son of Torren Liddle, he is Morgan “Middle” Liddle’s big brother. Morgan Liddle is among the northmen that join with Stannis’ army. He is the loudest shouter of the “Ned’s Girl” refrain, suggesting that his main reason for joining is because of him and his house’s strong feelings of loyalty to house Stark and Ned’s legacy. Also, Bran runs into a Liddle subject (or so he thinks) on the way to the Wall who expresses strong pro-Stark sentiments. I’m going to say that Big Liddle shares his family’s warm feelings toward the Starks, and would be loyal to Jon, him being ‘Ned’s Boy’.

Three-finger Hobb: Was always nice to Jon, even if he was exasperated about the wildlings and having to do a whole wedding feast. He seems an easygoing sort and not someone that could be manipulated into doing a mutiny. Also he was nice to Sam and gave him a salted ham for a nameday present, so I will not hear anything bad about the man. That said, he’s a long-time associate of Bowen Marsh, and being the chief cook, they would work very closely together, so it wouldn’t actually surprise me if he was involved.

Jax and Leathers: As former wildlings, I don’t think they would work with Bowen Marsh. It was Jon who facilitated their coming south and they took the black of their own free will. Also leathers was actively intervening in Wun Wun’s meltdown during the mutiny, so he had his hands full, and besides, he seemed like a good pal to Jon.

Owen the Oaf: He’s a nice boy and was happy to follow Jon’s orders, also Jon let him have Janos Slynt’s Boots.

Satin: If GRRM makes Satin complicit in the mutiny I’ll cry, so I simply won’t entertain the possibility.

I’ll also mention that in Jon VI, he sends out nine men on a ranging. I’ve taken out all the ones that are named: Dywen, Ser Alliser Thorne, Kedge Whiteye, and the three men who’s eyeless heads turn up just outside the gate, victims of the Weeper: Hairy Hal, Black Jack Bulwer, And Garth Greyfeather. This leaves three men that go unnamed. One in Dywen and Ser Alliser’s party, and two in Kedge’s. They are presumably experienced rangers. They might just be unnamed, unlisted watchmen, but they also might be some of the above brothers. Bearded Ben, Black Bernarr, Sweet Donnel Hill, Elron, Geoff, Goady, and Tim Stone are not mentioned after Jon sends out the ranging, so it might be any of them. I’m going to discount them all, because I don’t see any real motives there anyway, except Sweet Donnel and Goady, for reasons I’ll get to later.

Jon also sends an unknown number of guides with Stannis in Jon IV, and later with Tycho Nestoris in Jon IX. None of them are named, they might have been stewards or rangers, who knows, I’m not going to speculate.

Now,  there are several Rangers here who could go one way or the other, so I’m not going to spend time on the ones that are at Castle Black during the mutiny but don’t have much of a motive. They might have, they might not have been part of the mutiny. But Since Bowen Marsh was in charge, I think that it was mostly made up of stewards. So I’m going to take Garrett Greenspear, Luke of Longtown, Rory, Tom Barleycorn, and Ulmer off the suspect list. (Also I like Ulmer, and think he’s cool, so there. Also what’s up with Tom Barleycorn. Have you guys ever heard the song John Barleycorn must die? Where a symbolic figure of the harvest named John Barleycorn is sacrificed to be resurrected in spring and keep people alive with sustenance and alcohol? Kind of sus when this guy named TOM Barleycorn is at the castle where a main character named Jon dies and is presumably going to be resurrected, and likely have a hand in ending the winter.)

Similarly, for the builders, Othell Yarwyck, as the first Builder, and frequent Naysayer of Jon’s, is a prime suspect. However, even if Othell was involved, which is a distinct possibility, I don’t think he would have ordered his men to also involve themselves. So I’m going to take Kegs and Spare Boot off the list, since I don’t see a motive for either of them, and they both seemed very enthusiastic about fighting alongside Jon during Mance’s assault.

And as for stewards. As the men directly under Bowen Marsh’s command, they are the most likely to be involved, So I’m just going to say that I have no real reason to think Ty, Cugen, Tim Tangletongue (who does not appear in the text but is in the appendix), or Dannel would turn on Jon, but they very well might have, and I wouldn’t be very surprised if they did. For the record, Dannel gave Alys Karstark a sausage from the kitchen when he and Ty found her, and that alone endears him to me enough to take him off the list, and Cugen is only ever mentioned here:

Sam will remain in training, with the likes of Rast and Cuger and these new boys who are coming up the Kingsroad. Gods only know what they'll be like (AGOT Jon V)

as a recruit that might hurt Sam if he did not graduate with Jon and the others, so perhaps he would be anti-Jon, as someone associated with Rast

All of this said, Chett’s prologue is pretty much a direct message from GRRM that even guys who Jon barely notices might hate him and wish him ill. Since we only see the Wall through Jon’s PoV, we are going to have the same blind spots he does. So any of these half mentioned, mostly forgotten guys might harbor some intense resentment, and have all the reason in the world to kill Jon. But for the purposes of this post, I am focusing on characters that I think make sense as being anti-Jon, and there’s no way to speculate on people with no evidence to suggest them.

So, finally, having eliminated everyone without motive or evidence, this leaves only the characters I actually have reason to suspect were involved. The suspect list is as follows:

Alf of Runnymudd, Septon Cellador, Clydas, Sweet Donnel Hill, Fulk the Flea, Goady, Left Hand Lew, Mully, and Othell Yarwyck.  

I’ll go from least to most likely mutineers, listing reasons I suspect them, and reasons I think they might not have been involved.

9&8 : Mully and Fulk the Flea.

Evidence: Ghost acts aggressively towards them while they are guarding the armory the day of the Mutiny.

Fulk the Flea [said], "but your wolf's in no mood for company today.”

Mully agreed. "He tried to take a bite o' me, he did.” (ADWD, Jon XIII)

Alibi: Neither has any history of being anti-Jon that I can find, and personally, I like Mully because he is named after Mulligan the orange cat, here pictured with Parris  

which I think is just too cute, so if either of them were involved I would prefer it were Fulk. I know that’s not a real reason but its my list and I make the rules. Anyway as I said before, Ghost being aggressive doesn’t necessarily mean guilt. At this point, Ghost is paranoid because Jon is paranoid, feeling people around him plotting against him. Fulk and Mully might just have been in the wrong place at the wrong time.

7: Goady

Evidence: He was part of Jarman Buckwell’s scouting party on the Giant’s Stair, which spotted Jon among the wildlings. I imagine it would be very hard to shake the image of Jon as a wildling, even after he is elected Lord Commander. Especially if he then turns around and lets those same wildlings through the Wall.

Alibi: He does not appear in the text of ADWD, only the appendix, and his only mention in the books at all is in the Storm of Swords Chett prologue, in Kedge Whiteye’s dialogue

 “Harma the Dogshead has the van, the poxy bitch. Goady crept up on her camp and saw her” (ASOS, Prologue) 

so who knows what he’s actually up to. He may very well be with Kedge Whiteye out ranging right now, since he’s an experienced scout,  and they seem to be good buds. I just wanted to include him because he’s the only surviving member of Buckwell’s party that isn’t explicitly stated to be elsewhere.

6: Septon Cellador

Evidence: Vocally disapproving of most of Jon’s decisions, extremely homophobic towards Satin, Religiously intolerant towards followers of the old gods, and racist toward the wildlings, he is definitely a leader in the anti-Jon contingent. In fact, I don’t doubt at all that the had a hand in planning the mutiny.

Alibi: I don’t think he has the guts to actually stab anyone, and considering the mutiny took place at night, he was probably too drunk to stand, let alone participate.

5: Clydas

Evidence: Here is the Mule theory. (I don’t actually believe this, but it would be a wild curveball for GRRM to throw, and I wouldn’t put it past him) Clydas was the last person to handle the Pink Letter, being the one to give it to Jon. Clydas can read, and manages all the correspondences coming to, or going from Castle Black. This gives him ample opportunity to interfere with incoming mail. We know the letter may have been faked or at least tampered with, since the wax seal is only a smear by the time it comes into Jon’s possession. It’s entirely possible that Clydas was working with, or masterminding the mutineers to forge all or some part of the Pink Letter in order to incite Jon to forswear himself.

Here’s the thing. Clydas has been assisting Maester Aemon since before Jon Arrived at the Wall, he likely was aware of Jon’s hand in getting Sam into Chett’s position, he was privy to Jon’s chafing about being assigned to the stewards, and probably knew about Jon’s desertion attempt. Clydas helped Sam count the votes for Lord Commander, and who knows how much he figured out about the election rigging. He has never stated much of an opinion on any of it, and often plays the dim, forgettable assistant. However, what if he was smarter than he was letting on? What if his impression of Jon was that of a manipulative ambitious young man willing to cheat the system to get what he wants. What if he, knowing Jon, having observed him from the age of fourteen, and read every letter written by, to, or about him, and was likely also privy to many conversations between high officers (including his uncle) about him, knew exactly what Jon cared about, and what buttons to press that would make Jon instantly too angry to think straight, and decided to put that into action, and team up with (or even manipulate) Bowen Marsh, who had his own reasons to want Jon gone, and the command of enough men to get the job done.

Alibi: I don’t want him to be involved!! :(( He’s never been anything but kind to Jon, asking if he’s alright, seeing if he’s ok after the news about ‘Arya’, calling him Jon instead of my lord, almost fondly. I would be really sad if he was. Also, while he may have been involved in the planning and orchestration part, I don’t think he participated in the physical assassination attempt. He is frail and old with poor vision, and two hours and change before the mutiny, Jon has Mully and Satin escort him back up to his chamber in the maester’s keep because it is so icy. I don’t know if he could make it back down to the yard in the dark to do a stabbing in that time.  

4: Sweet Donnel Hill

Evidence: He was part of the Chett’s planned mutiny at the Fist of the First Men, survived the Fight at the Fist, and made it to Craster’s keep. However at Craster’s he stayed loyal to the Watch, and was among those survivors to make it back to the Wall with Grenn and Dolorous Edd. This seems to me like a man that is fully willing to get rid of a Lord Commander if he disagrees with his leadership, but who remains loyal to the principles of the Watch. This is exactly what the spirit of the mutiny was, in my opinion, and puts him high on my list. Not to mention the fact that he is a steward, and thus under Marsh’s command.

Alibi: He is not mentioned after Jon III when he is one of the archers that shoots Rattleshirt disguised as Mance as he is burned alive, he may have been sent elsewhere by the time of the mutiny, or is simply not an active enough Jon disapprover to be noticed by him, which suggests his uninvolvement.

3: Othell Yarwyck

Evidence: As I stated before, Othell is a close associate of Bowen Marsh’s and among the chorus of naysayers that become constant fixtures in Jon’s ADWD chapters. He’s a traditionalist, and a better follower than a leader. 

Othell Yarwyck was not a man of strong convictions (ASOS, Jon XIII) 

I definitely think Bowen could sway him, they are on first name terms, have worked together for a while, and probably talk about what Jon is doing that they don’t like when he isn’t there. He is also present in the Shield Hall by Bowen when Jon reads the letter, and leaves with him when he storms out.

Alibi: The first inkling we get that Bowen is harboring malice towards Jon is that he refuses wine or food in Jon VIII. At that time, Othell happily takes a seat and a sausage. As the sort not to think too deeply on things, 

Othell Yarwyck was as stolid and unimaginative as he was taciturn (ADWD. Jon V) 

he might not second guess Jon’s orders beyond what Bowen tells him to, so he might not harbor the same anti-Jon sentiments. He’s not one to rock the boat, killing the lord commander is a big boat rocking. I believe he knew about the plot, and that Bowen would want him in on it, but IDK if he would be directly involved.

2: Left Hand Lew

I must admit I have no motive for him. But he’s standing right with Bowen and Wick Whittlestick in the shield hall, 

Bowen had Wick Whittlestick, Left Hand Lew, and Alf of Runnymudd beside him] (ADWD Jon XIII)

and we have no other evidence for Wick until he physically tries to cut Jon’s throat (well besides that he is the keeper of the keys to the food stores, which would obviously be a position that worked VERY closely under Bowen Marsh), so I have to put him top of the list. He’s standing with the primary perpetrators just moments before the crime is committed. He was probably the third or fourth knife. I don’t have an alibi for him either.

1: Alf of Runnymudd

The same things can be said about Alf that have been said about Lew. He was standing with Bowen and Wick in the shield hall, he left with them when they stormed out. However. Unlike Lew or Wick, Alf has a definite motive.

In Melisandre’s chapter, we get some characterization for Alf. He is a builder, he took R’hllor for his god (of his own free will) and, most importantly, when it is revealed who was killed by the Weeper, he screams and breaks down crying to hear that Garth Greyfeather was one of them. He’s so distraught he has to be drugged and put to bed.

“Who is it?" asked Owen the Oaf. "Not Dywen, is it?"

"Nor Garth," said the queen's man she knew as Alf of Runnymudd, one of the first to exchange his seven false gods for the truth of R'hllor. "Garth's too clever for them wildlings."

"How many?" Mully asked.

"Three," Jon told them. "Black Jack, Hairy Hal, and Garth."

Alf of Runnymudd let out a howl loud enough to wake sleepers in the Shadow Tower.

"Put him to bed and get some mulled wine into him," Jon told Three-Finger Hobb.  (ADWD, Melisandre)

@nobodysuspectsthebutterfly​ has written before about the possibility that Alf and Garth were in a gay relationship. I fully subscribe to this idea, and if you know me at all, you know I am a huge proponent of the Wall Husbands concept, and think there is probably a decent population of gay men on the Wall (my main choices for this being Benjen, Dolorous Edd, Big Liddle, and Waymar Royce [you may notice the pattern of them being sons of lords who joined of their own free will. It just makes sense to me that a lord’s son who for SOME reason didn’t want to have to get married to a woman would consider the option of joining an order of men that live together and never marry]) 

So my theory regarding Alf, is that he blames Jon for the death of Garth Greyfeather, his lover. Because Jon sent the ranging out knowing full well that few rangers are making it back alive, and here’s the clincher. Despite his many crimes, Jon is still willing to pardon the Weeper  

“Surely the lord commander cannot mean to allow that ... that demon [The Weeper] through as well?” [said Bowen Marsh]

“Not gladly.” Jon had not forgotten the heads the Weeping Man had left him, with bloody holes where their eyes had been. Black Jack Bulwer, Hairy Hal, Garth Greyfeather. I cannot avenge them, but I will not forget their names. “But yes, my lord, him as well. We cannot pick and choose amongst the free folk, saying this one may pass, this one may not. Peace means peace for all. [...] When a man takes the black, his crimes are forgiven,” Jon reminded them. “If we want the free folk to fight beside us, we must pardon their past crimes as we would for our own.” (ADWD, Jon XI)

If news of that got to Alf, I easily imagine he would be fully on board with killing him, and might have gone and tried it himself even without Bowen Marsh’s prompting. All of this makes him my suspect #1 for third or fourth knife. I think his story is a tragedy and really really hope he gets some moments in TWOW and is not just killed off right away. 

#whew anyway #I think of nothing but Nightswach day and night i hope this is clear #if i missed anybody please let me know #asoiaf #valyrianscrolls #asoiaf meta #jon snow #night's watch

[inncorrect-starklings]

Jon: Hey can we talk? About something uncomfortable?

Val: Sure! How boooooout... having sex with your aunt?

Jon: ...

Jon: I had a topic in mind!

#jon snow #val the wildling #jon x val #incorrect got quotes #incorrect quotes #source: friends #anti jonerys #val the wildling princess

[agentrouka-blog]

I have read Val asoiaf wiki and it filled with how beautiful she is or what kind of dresses she wore. She was described as resourceful and the only thing she had done is to bring Tormund to Jon. Hell Gilly story is much more interesting than her.

I agree Gilly is much more interesting. Her perspective on things jumps off the page, in part because she very openly initiates interactions, and in part because she tells us what she thinks and feels. We know who she is inside. GRRM wants us to know these things about her.

Not so Val.

The thing about her is that she has done other things beside getting Tormund - which WAS an impressive accomplishment, btw. 

We just don't know how she feels about that. We don’t know how she feels about anything. The characters project onto this imprisoned woman, and that is the point. 

Val stood on the platform as still as if she had been carved of salt. She will not weep nor look away. Jon wondered what Ygritte would have done in her place. The women are the strong ones. (ADWD, Jon III)

Jon looks at her impassivity, her actively hiding her own reaction and emotions,  her absence, and he calls it strength. 

Whatever about this is strong? It’s blank, is what it is. She is hiding herself from the scrutiny of her captors, the same way GRRM is hiding her from the reader, honestly.

We are not given access to her, we are watching her act as a snow-white blank canvas for the other characters. A sight so lovely, so strong, so princess!

She watched her sister die in childbirth. We just don't know how she feels about that.

She lost her lover. We just don’t know how she feels about that. 

Her nephew. We have no idea how she feels about that.

She was part of Mance’s inner circle through Dalla. We just don’t know how she feels about that.

She has interacted independently with Stannis to plead for Mance. We just don't know how she feels about that.

She killed a guard. We just don't know how she feels about that.

Her late sister gave her that prominently featured white outfit. We just don't know how she feels about that. (Apart from wanting to avoid bloodstains.)

Jon’s letting the wildlings through the Wall? No idea what she thinks of that.

 Stanny’s plan to make her Lady of Winterfell? Nothing. NOTHING.

I’m actually starting to appreciate how GRRM is exposing Jon’s own biases and weaknesses through this technique, the sexism he harbors, the vulnerability to succumbing to it even though he knows better. This appreciation of a pretty blank surface over, say, the open vulnerability of Gilly, who refuses to make herself comfortable by hiding her pain or despair or her weakness.

I love even more how it exposes the reader. If you don’t notice how little GRRM is actually giving us about Val, you need to ask yourself why you are so comfortable staring at a white wall and calling it a Strong Female Character. 

#val the wildling #anti asoiaf fandom #pov trap #sexism #misogyny

[fedonciadale]

I know this has been asked too many times but what are the real chances of political jon in the books? Do you think jon would be playing her from the beginning(first meeting) or middle(post parentage reveal where she'll become more paranoid & their dynamic will be like LF-Sansa) or only at the time of killing her? Like he may become infatuated with her initially & betray the north, then become deluded with her & finally kill her?

Hi there!

I answer this together with this question:

Is there any book meta of political jon theory? If there's a compilation, can you link it?            

Imho opinion the best argument for Political Jon is still this:

When they emerged north of the Wall, through a thick door made of freshly hewn green wood, the wildling princess paused for a moment to gaze out across the snow-covered field where King Stannis had won his battle. Beyond, the haunted forest waited, dark and silent. The light of the half-moon turned Val's honey-blond hair a pale silver and left her cheeks as white as snow. She took a deep breath. "The air tastes sweet."                

 "My tongue is too numb to tell. All I can taste is cold."(ADWD, Jon VII)

Val is a stand-in for Dany here, and Jon’s answer clearly shows that although Dany will love Jon (or more precisely will be infatuated with him), Jon will be cold.

And then there is this:

"He died for me." Dany clutched her lion pelt to her chest. Underneath, a sheer white linen tunic covered her to midthigh. She had been dreaming of a house with a red door when Missandei woke her. There had been no time to dress

"Khaleesi," whispered Irri, "you must not touch the dead man. It is bad luck to touch the dead."    (ADWD, Daenerys I)

Daenerys has risen from her bed here, half naked, and it insinuates a lover’s tryst and yet it is bad luck for her to touch a dead man (Jon is a dead man!).

There are several other things, that point towards Political Jon.

We have on the one hand, hints in Jon’s arc: Jon’s  interactions with Stannis and even more important with Selyse (a woman who is not as attractive as Dany, but who is a Queen). He keeps to his own thoughts in his interactions with King and Queen and it is quite clear that he a) does not like them and b) manipulates them.

We have hints in Dany’s arc: She is manipulated by the Shavepate for example. She is warned about treasons and who should be the treason for love, if not Jon? 

Then there are stories about betrayal in other PoV’s arc. @rose-of-red-lake wrote a meta on the cyvasse advice Tyrion gives to Aegon (or fAegon) and how this points towards Political Jon (here).

I wrote a meta on how Aurane Waters and his betrayal of Cersei foreshadow Political Jon (here).

So, considering what is done in Jon’s chapters and Dany’s chapters and how other people’s arcs mirror Political Jon, there is no doubt in my mind that Political Jon is going to happen in the books. And I think Jon will play her from the beginning (or maybe after he realizes that he has no choice but to manipulate her). I do not think that he will fall in love with her at all (which does not exclude that he might feel some attraction or lust). I would also alert you to the fact that Jon Snow’s possible coldness and betrayal of Daenerys have been discussed in the fandom since ADWD came out.... (and by people who are decidedly anti Jonsa)

As for metas I would alert you to the Political Jon tag and to the certainly not exhaustive overview on the fanlore page for Jonsa (https://fanlore.org/wiki/Jon_Snow/Sansa_Stark).

We reblogged some Political Jon meta on @delulumeta but we are not the most meticulous mods tbh.

Thanks for the ask!

#anon ask #Jon Snow #Political Jon #Anti Jonerys #Political Jon meta

[thousandeyesand-one]

why did kit say jon is in love with SOMEBODY? why? am so mad he gave nonsas another reason to bark about

Hi anon,

I believe this is the quote that bothers you

"The end of the world might be coming soon but atleast he is in love with somebody and knows who he is -- and then comes a sledgehammer."

-Kit Harrington (x)

So going by their tradition anti's did find a way to flip things over yet again. Kit saying Jon is in love with somebody doesn't mean he is being shady about who it actually is it's more like FINALLY HE IS IN LOVE WITH SOMEBODY.

Unpopular opinion (maybe?!) Jon has never truly fallen in love with anyone be it Ygritte or Val. But this time he is indeed in love, after coming back from the dead & at a point in his life when he least expected LOVE to hit him it did. He fell in Love with Daenerys. 

Jon always felt an honor towards ygritte for being his first because he is a good man! By far Jon doesn't have any romantic feelings for Val only that he thinks she is beautiful, & he is also weirdly attracted to Melisandre because she is described being very beautiful also carice van houten is gorgeous.

"I think he does, he does have that struggle, in that he is at the heart of it he is a man & as such he craves what men crave, which is the company of women. But I think whole of second season where he is talking to her (ygritte), being tempted by her & teased by her, it's pretty hard not to look at that side of the things. He does have that struggle, he is tempted to run off like Mance Rayder did & joined the wildlings.."

-Kit Harrington (x)

This ☝️ It never happened in the books where Jon admits to ever love ygritte let alone "still love her". This Mel & Jon conversation happens in a very different way in the books.

“I would bring back Robb Stark and his mother Catelyn just because I really miss Richard and Michelle who played them. Richard and I are still best mates. And Ygritte would come back of course. I think Jon’s never been happier than when he was with her - and I don’t think he ever will”

-Kit Harington.

Kit! We get it she is your wifey & you'd have to take her name or else no food for days.. But apart from that I kinda think yes, between the Jon before the Battle of the Wall who knew it's impossible to impregnate the Wall vs the Jon who'll find out that the greatest defence they had has been brought down by an undead Dragon being the broody goody Jon is, such an imminent danger is not going to allow him to be happy. He isn't going to be the carefree boy hungry for glory anymore!

This is a man who is in Love with this woman, about to be a married man with the responsibility of the love of his life & his child, his family in perhaps the most dangerous time to have a family. It's Jon's melancholy not his reluctance that anti's like to frame it into being.

I hope this helps nonny!

#jonerys #jon snow #daenerys targaryen #ask answered #anti-nonsa