#atsv meta

[yellowocaballero]

Miguel is Fine, Actually (Being Spider-Man's Just Toxic As Hell)

Before I watched ATSV I said that I would defend my man Miguel O'Hara's actions no matter what, because he's always valid and I support women's wrongs. I was joking, and I did not actually expect to start defending him on Tumblr.edu. But I'm seeing a lot of commentary that's super reductive, so I do want to bring up another perspective on his character.

Miguel wasn't acting against the spirit of Spider-Man, or what being Spider-Man means. Miguel isn't meant to represent the antithesis of Spider-Man. Miles is the antithesis of Spider-Man. Miguel represents Spider-Man taken to its extreme.

Think about Miguel's actions from his perspective. If you were a hero who genuinely, legitimately, 100%, no doubt about it, believed that somebody is going to make a selfish decision that will destroy an entire universe and put the entire multiverse at severe risk - if you had an over-burdened sense of responsibility and believed in doing the right thing no matter what - you would also chase down the kid and put him in baby jail to try and prevent it. He believed that he was saving the multiverse, and that Miles was putting it in danger for selfish reasons. Which is completely unforgivable to him, because selfishness is what he hates the most. And then he goes completely out of pocket and starts beefing with a 15yo lmfaooo he's such a dick.

But why did Miguel believe that? Why did he believe that Miles choosing himself and his own happiness over the well-being of others was the worst possible thing? Why did he believe that tragedy was inevitable in their lives, and that without tragedy Spider-Man can't exist?

Because he's Spider-Man.

Peter Parker was once a fifteen year old who chose his own happiness over protecting others. It was the greatest regret of his life and he never forgave himself. Peter's ethos means that he will put himself last every time, and that he will sacrifice anything and everything in his life - his relationships, his health, his future - to protecting and helping others. Peter dropped out of college because it interfered with Spider-Man. He destroyed his own future for Spider-Man. He ruins friendships and romantic relationships because Spider-Man was more important. If Peter ever tries to protect himself and his own happiness, then he's a bad person.

That is intrinsic to Peter. Peter would not be Peter without it. A story that is not defined by Peter's unhappiness is not a Spider-Man story. If Peter doesn't make himself miserable, then he's just not Peter.

That is a Spider-Man story: that not only is tragedy inevitable, that if you don't allow yourself to be defined by your tragedy then you're a bad person. If you don't suffer, then you're a bad person. If you ever put anything above Spider-Man, then you're killing Uncle Ben all over again. Miguel isn't the only one that believes this - as we saw, every Spider-Man buys into what he's saying. There's no Spider-Man without these beliefs.

Miguel attempted to find his own happiness, and he was punished in the most extreme way. He got Uncle Ben'd x10000. He tried to be happy, and it literally destroyed his entire universe. It's the Spider-narrative taken to the extreme. Of course Miguel believes all of this. Of course he believes this so firmly. He's Spider-Man. That's his story. And the one time Miguel tried to fight against that story, he was punished. And like any Spider-Man, he'll slavishly obey that narrative no matter the evil it creates and perpetuates. Because if he doesn't, the narrative will punish him. The narrative will always punish him. It's a Spider-Man story.

I don't think the universal constant between Spider-Mans, the thing that makes them Spider-Man, is tragedy. I think it's the fact that they never forgive themselves. And Miguel is what that viewpoint creates. He doesn't believe this things because he's an awful, mean person. He believes them because he's a hero. He's a good person who hates himself.

Across the Spider-verse isn't really a Spider-Man story. It's a story about Spider-Man stories. Miguel's right: if this was a Spider-Man story, then Miles acting selfishly really would destroy the universe. But Miles' story isn't interested in punishing him. It pushes back against Peter's narrative that unhappiness is inevitable and that you have to suffer to be a good person. It says that sometimes we do the right thing from love and not fear, and that Peter's way of thinking is ultimately super toxic and unhappy. ITSV was about Miles deciding that he didn't need to be Peter Parker, that all he needed to be was Miles, and ATSV is about how being Peter Parker isn't such a good thing. Miguel shows that. Whatever toxic and unhealthy beliefs he holds - they're the exact same beliefs that any Spider-Man holds. He's a dick, but I don't think he's any more awful a person than Peter is.

TL;DR: Miguel isn't a bad person, he just has Spider-Man brainrot.

#across the spider-verse #atsv #atsv spoilers #across the spider-verse spoilers #across the spiderverse #across the spider verse #miguel o'hara #atsv meta #source: i recognized an embarassing amount of those cameos #im also seeing a lot of ppl make a lot of assumptions about what miguel was injecting and why #we dunno guys! im not gonna suppose anything #I just think that Miguel and Miles are great foils #and that what makes them interesting as foils #is the fact that they're both good people who want to do the right thing #miguel shows how that gets twisted #to the point where you beef with a 15yo sometimes which is still so funny #im a big spidey 2099 fan #which I love bc it is NOTHING like spiderman and yet it's such a good spiderman story #but talking about comics migs is useless bc he has 0 in common with atsv migs #but there is a lot of VERY cool stuff to say about how #the sm2099 comic has nothing to do with spiderman at all whatsoever extremely pointedly #but its still a wonderful spiderman story that finds its own way #tbh it was kind of a breath of fresh air to read a spider-man story that wasn't about spider-man for once #and that was just about miguel #anyway stan women's wrongs #miguel o hara #miguel ohara #my writing

[the-cat-and-the-birdie]

ATSV Fun Fact!! - Mumbattan Cultural Details

Gayatri & Inspector Singh follow the Sikh Religion

Have you ever heard of Punjabi Sikhs?

If you don't know - Sikhism is a religion that originates in northern India, specifically Punjab.

The turban Gayatri's father wears - along with his last name 'Singh' implies that her father is most likely a Punjabi Sikh.

I notice this the first time watching ATSV and was like 'wow that's so cool :)'

It only hit me today that 'Oh wait I don't think a lot of people know about this very-specific, rarely-mentioned religion maybe i should say something,'

And because I LOVE yelling about world culture, LET'S GO!!!

[a SHORT essay where I explain the basics of Sikhism, a religion built on equality and justice. And details in The Singhs design, and exactly why Sikh Representation matters]

So What's Sikhism about?

Often mistaken for Muslims - Sikhs are actually a non-Abrahamic religion, with 20 million followers worldwide.

But even with so many visible practicing members, most people know very very little about this beautiful religion!

Sikhs believe in equality and unity - and defending the oppressed. Their book of faith, The Guru Granth Sahib Ji, is called 'Guru' for a reason - Sikhs see the book as not just a code of conduct, but as a living, breathing teacher for every practicioner;

From Wikipedia on Guru Granth Sahib: Sikhs since then [1708] have accepted the Guru Granth Sahib, the sacred scripture, as their eternal-living guru, as the embodiment of the ten Sikh Gurus, the highest religious and spiritual guide for Sikhs. It plays a central role in guiding the Sikh's way of life.

The Guru Granth Sahib is the spiritual leader of Sikhism, and it's treated as such.

That's why in Gurdwaras - their place of worship - it's treated as such, being clothed and held in ornate structure, constantly fanned throughout it's readings (the fan you can see in the left picture).

They believe that by following the Guru Granth Sahib Ji, they can cultivate compassion, peace, and harmony in their communities, while diminishing 'Mara' - concepts like hatred or violence.

Sikhs believe that every Sikh should revere themselves as champions of unity. And because of this many Sikhs have the same last name -

Kaur for women (Meaning Princess) and Singh for men (Meaning Lion).

Having the same last name also does away with the Indian caste system, making it another point of equality.

In ATSV Gayatri last name is Singh. However from my understanding, her name would most likely be Gayatri Kaur in reality.

I think they kept her last name as Singh as a deliberate choice to keep her initials as GS, like Gwen Stacy.

So is Gayatri Sikh?

Maybe - most likely.

But we can't be sure. Mainly because of her hair.

Gayatri has a short bob haircut, and while that might not seem like it matters, it does!

In Sikhism there are the '5K's - different aspects Sikhs wear to show their faith.

Notice the first one?

'Kesh' is the practice of leaving ones hair completely uncut. That's why you may see a lot of Sikh men with long, long beards!

And hence, the large turbans.

It's done as respect for God's creation - leaving it unaltered.

[Fun Fact! - Rastafarians, a Jamaican religion, also don't cut their hair for this reason. Think Bob Marley. Rastas call God - Jah]

So, Gayatri having short hair means she doesn't keep Kesh.

However, Sikh is a super accepting and open religion, and it's main focus is on acceptance of difference, not conformity - so she could entirely follow the faith without doing all of any of the 5Ks.

Also, if you're curious about the steel sword K - Kirpan, yes that's a thing!

Sikhs of all genders are encouraged to carry a small ceremonial blade with them.

Instead it's a symbol of the commitment to fighting for what's right - and defending those who cannot defend themselves.

A Kirpan can ONLY be used to defend the life of yourself or others, which is incredibly rare.

Why is this all so rad, cool, and important?

If you haven't noticed by now, Sikhism is a religion driven by justice. Not just in theory, but in really life as well.

That's why you may see many Sikh police officers and politicians, even here in the West. Most of them wearing the emblem on their turbans.

In fact, Canada has SO MANY Sikh politicians, that in 2019 they elected 18 of them.

For centuries Sikhs have been dedicated to justice, and developing systems of support, whether that be political involvement or feeding those in need.

The biggest Gurdwara (a place of Sikh worship) The Golden Temple feeds over 100,000 people A DAY.

For FREE.

It's a practice called Langar. A communal meal anyone can enjoy. And of course, Langar food is vegetarian.

Making Inspector Singh a Sikh - and showing him saving people and being warm to his daughter on screen is great representation for a community so often overlooked! Despite the fact they are over 20 million practicing Sikhs.

It's a great detail for Indian and Punjabi representation in specific. It accurate shows their beliefs and commitment towards helping others, no matter the cost.

And from what we can tell, this choice came later in development. We know this because ALL of his concept art shows him with a turban, not keeping Kesh.

It seems like someone later on down the line said 'Wait if his name is Singh I think he's Sikh and if he's Sikh then we're gonna have to redesign him and make that obvious oops'.

That, dear audience, is why you always have an Anthropologist in the writing room. Or some amateur anthropologist like me :)

-------------

I hope you enjoyed reading this, I really enjoyed writing it!! Sikhism is one of my favorite religions and if you have never heard anything from the Guru Granth Sahib I HIGHLY recommend it, it's very optimistic and compassionate. Sikhnet(.)com is also a great resource!

I have no idea if this will pique anyone's interest, but I hardly ever see Sikhs reflected in media and I know many many people may confuse them with Muslim, especially since many women Sikhs keep kesh and cover their hair as well.

But if you ever wanted to know the difference, here it is! If you read this far, thank you SO MUCH. And if you're a Sikh and reading this, I LOVE YOU SO MUCH.

As usual, here's a photo of Hobie for your travels.

BYE.

#Did yall know about this? Idk know is any of this is common knowledge im gonna be real dugshjdgjks #It's a GREAT detail its so small but I love it #no proofread you get what i meant #and of course if you have any info to add or correct me on #feel free!! I wanna spread accurate info :) #spiderman #atsv #spider man #marvel #across the spiderverse #pavitr prabhakar #atsv meta #atsv meta analysis #meta #meta analysis #spiderman india #spider man india #pavitr #atsv pavitr #gayatri singh

[ignitingthesky]

"We're talking about it, aren't we?" — Across the Spider Verse, and its opening statement on canonicity

Canonicity. The accepted norm, the standards of legitimization. There is of course so much to talk about with regards to the comics canon that I am totally unfamiliar with... so I will focus instead on the fun little sequence at the beginning re: the art canon, and ATSV's evocation of art canonicity as an opening statement for its subsequent explorations of canonicity.

Right at the beginning, before Miles's story begins, ATSV destroys the Guggenheim museum.

The Guggenheim museum is not just any gallery, but specifically an art institution strongly associated with the contemporary art (it's also hole shaped but that's not relevant rn). It has the power to legitimize the artworks in it because of its association with the contemporary art canon, which is... ongoing, yet. In general, museums that are respected as art institutions could potentially legitimize non-canon artworks, but only because its adherence to the existing standards of canon has given it that power.

So. The story begins by destroying a legitimizing institution perpetuating an art historical canon of 'high art', through the mediums of 'low art' — animation and comic. The story begins with a Renaissance artist Vulture, from, in Gwen's words, "some Leonardo da Vinci dimension" — his association with an art canon is no coincidence as he also attempts to define what is canon ("You call this art?"), rejects the contemporary art canon by literally destroying it, emphasizing the competing ideas of canon even within those that make it to canon. The story begins, with pop cultural figures of a multiplying canon, spider people of different comics working together to fight the Renaissance artist Vulture that insists on one version of the art canon.

You know what Gwen says in response to Vulture right after he questions the canonicity of contemporary art, and right before they break the Balloon Dog by Jeff Koons?* "We're talking about it, aren't we?" And after they break the Balloon Dog: "Sure it's a meta commentary on what we call art, but it's ... it's also art?". Loops back on itself neatly, really, but what does this mean? That the artwork is canon because it comments on its place in canon? It is canon, because of its relationship to canon? If this sounds like the museum's power inside canon being derived from its relationship with canon, that's because that's how a canon works. The accepted norm is both legitimized by its components and doing the legitimizing of its components, existing to feed itself endlessly — that is what makes them static and resistant to change — the same way Spider Society defines through their commonalities what is canon, become trapped by their own canon, and also perpetuate and enforce that canon.

*Detouring to talk about Balloon Dog by Jeff Koons more, @moonsun2010 for noticing this detail: big balloon dog (spiderverse canon) consisting of small balloon dogs (spider people and the iterations of their individual stories). So! His Balloon Dog(s) are famously identical, reproduced, and mocked to death for that very expensive repetition, and if you've heard, recently one of the smaller ones broke it's like $42k? I don't know if everyone was wondering what's inside one of the bigger ones, but because of the museums preserving its staticity (you are obviously not allowed to touch or destroy artworks inside of a museum), the speculation was meaningless. The act of destruction (in this movie) revealing MORE Balloon Dogs in this artwork both disrupted staticity AND is much more interesting than the pristine, untouched original. Clearly, visitors stuck in ATSV museum think so too: "Oh, that's cool." That's one more point under destroying something that exists for its own self replicating sake to reveal and free an exciting multiplicity!

This art canon parallel refracts beautifully in the SHEER diversity of art styles in this movie, in the commitment to portraying not just different spider-designs, but the mediums their universes are in. To me, that is an extension of the relationship they've established between artistic and narrative canons - there seems to be no limits as to what spiderpeople can look like and how they can be drawn, in clear juxtaposition with the rigidity of their narrative canons. The institution symbolic of an art canon is destroyed at the beginning of this movie. what will be destroyed by the end, from resisting the narrative canon?

To end on a bit of speculation: imo for Gwen "a police captain close to spider person dies to save a child" still works and it didn't really defy canon so much as reinterpret it. A police captain close to spider person dies (quits, death of cop ego, whatever) to save a child (his child, Gwen). so I'm SO interested to see if Miles will find a way to defy canon fr — maybe in the process kicking up another count on the destroying of self perpetuating, static structures?

#atsv #atsv meta #atsv spoilers #spiderverse #across the spider verse #across the spider verse spoilers #across the spiderverse

[fluffypotatey]

i know this has been said tons of times already in different ways but,

i just love the way Miguel and the Spider Society forcing everyone to follow the “canon” and telling Miles that he is not allowed to change the predestined story because “everyone else had to go through it” is an excellent metaphor for older generations re-enforcing to younger generations the ideology that the suffering they have to go through of whatever kind is normal and expected.

it’s like that saying “if i had to grow through hell, so do you.” but the thing is, Spiderman is the hero who is typically the one saying, “i’ll make sure you never go through hell like i did.” it’s such a cool way to show the conflict and disconnect between the two ideologies that Miles struggles with in the film

just….like the fact that Miguel and Jessica sort of symbolize the kind of parents who worked their asses off to make sure the world you live in will be better than theirs then feel upset and betrayed when their child who has the privilege to live a life they might have desired in the kid’s age. definitely didn’t find any relatability to that aha

I just love that it’s the fact that Spiderman’s story of losing Uncle Ben, losing the police chief, losing Gwen, are things Miles is told he cannot fight (the whole parallel between being told life = suffering and desiring a happier outcome won’t work). BUT THEN, Miles says fuck that! he says “no, why should i have to put up with that when i know i can change it!” and just 🫠

idk i love this movie and i hope this makes sense

#reason…..*checks notes* 28901 on why i love this movie and find Miles incredibly relatable #also the scene where Miguel reveals Miles is an ‘anomaly’ T^T the proJECTION! #the heavy projection that feeds into the insecurities and self doubt and self worth T^T ahahahahaha #but yeah #sorry the end felt rushed i was running out of energy and felt like i was just repeating myself #hope y’all found this coherent enough #anyway #atsv #atsv spoilers #atsv meta #atsv analysis #spiderman atsv #across the spider verse #miles morales #across the spiderverse #across the spider verse spoilers

[two-ndborne]

video grabbed from @ ej.edits2 on tikok

something i noticed during my rewatch of atsv was how the communication between miles and gwen in this scene was also reflected in the animation(?)

i like how on the surface, their dialogue is causal and friendly and familiar but, even without context, we can tell gwen isnt giving the full picture and miles is trying to get up to speed with little anecdotes shes sharing. "who's miguel?" "a few months is kind of a long time, isn't it?"

hes trying to catch up! it mirrors in their physical movements where they never really enter/leave the frame at the same and miles is behind gwen at every swing and jump

i don't know if this animation direction was purposeful or not to show the subtle disconnect between the two of them. or just to lead into the fact that gwen is trying to lose miles in the city for a few seconds to set up that little spider robot.

#which would confirm shes there under pretense #but the audience was already suspicious of gwen bc of her dialogue at the verry beginning of the movie #anyway ignore me trying to explain why this scene is bittersweet to me #im over-analyzing #two talks #meta #atsv meta #across the spiderverse meta #across the spiderverse #across the spider verse #miles morales #gwen stacy #drumflower #gwiles #spiderman

[candyfloss-esophagus]

what really fucks me up is the line 'i didn't know they made those in adult sizes' from peter b referring to the daypass that miles is wearing so that he doesn't. yk. die a horrible death immediately after setting foot in hq. it seems like a throwaway funnyman comment at first but then you realise that miles is really wearing an adult-sized bracelet. because presumably the only other person who needs one or is relevant to the movie is mayday. a toddler. a literal baby. miles, not half an hour before, had a conversation with jeff and rio and insisted that he was an adult and they needed to stop babying him. he was exasperated and, yeah, i get that. everyone is constantly demeaning and belittling miles for his age, calling him 'kid', trying to shelter him or purely underestimating him. he's at that weird in-between stage of his life where everyone insists he has to grow up and 'act his age' while simultaneously keeping kid locks on everything he tries to reach. that adult daypass is an outright mockery of the watch that would give him his freedom and allow him to really spread his wings and grow into himself and i'm so emotionally bitter about that.

#miles morales #god it just hits me right where it hurts #miles morales meta #atsv meta #atsv #esophagus speaks #across the spiderverse #spiderverse #meta #spiderverse miles #spiderverse meta #peter b. parker #peter b parker #miguel o'hara #rio morales #jeff morales

[greenapplebling]

So I just read a meta post about movie Miguel vs comic Miguel and, yeah, I really think the movie did him dirty. They just pulled a MOM Scarlet Witch on him but worse bc at least we get to see the build up for Wanda's decision, but Miguel? We don't have any background for him to justify his actions

And I have the same complain for both: so you're a childless parent but you have a child/children with inconsistent parental figures right in front of you?? Like??

I really think it should've been Miguel the one who mentored Gwen, then we could've had seen more of his parental side AND it would've made things way more dramatic during the confrontation with Miles

I'd like to have faith in the directors and writers that they did it this way to get somewhere in the next movie, bc Miguel seems to be important but we don't know anything about him?? And if they don't, it seems like they really ate more than what they could chew on. I can see why people say ITSV was superior lol

#yami rants #atsv meta #kinda? #atsv #spiderverse #spiderman #spiderman 2099 #miguel o’hara #spider woman #ghost spider #spider gwen #gwen stacy #miles morales #spider man across the spider verse #across the spider verse #into the spiderverse #itsv #atsv spoilers #spiderdad #grumpy spiderdad

[spidey-bie]

I hate that now everyone is theorizing who has to die to replace Miles' father to keep the canon. "Well his mom did this and this" or "Gwen said this" or "Peter B. blah blah blah blah." NO. He's gonna save his father, he's gonna defeat the spot, and he's gonna be okay. You have basically missed the entire plot of ATSV if you are theorizing who's gonna die in the next movie.

#i hate tiktok #my cousin sent me a theory where Miles'mother dies #because Rio had a long discussion with Miles on the roof #like did you not hear her words #did you not understand what she was telling her son and why #UGHHHHHHHHH #honestly this is why i didn't like No Way Home #peter just suffered and had his entire life reset for no reason whatsoever #it was so stupid #atsv meta #atsv analysis #analysis #meta #across the spiderverse #atsv #satsv #jay and the spiders

[unfortunately-obsessed]

Canon Events, The Multiverse and Miles Morales

Most theories about Canon Events, discourse about the ATSV's plot holes and BTSV prediction started pissing me off. Decided to summarize ATSV myself. Let's start with the following image:

Lol

What are Canon Events?

The basic.

MILES: And these nodes, where the lines converge?

MIGUEL: They are The Canon. Chapters that are a part of every spider’s story, every time.

– ATSV Script. MULTIVERSAL MAP SCENE.

Canon events are pivotal moments – milestones in their storyline– that change the course of the rest of narrative in a Spider-Man's life. The events end up shaping a series of fundamental elements including personality traits, insecurities, career prospects and more. It includes constants origin stories, significant victories, losses, and character-defining moments that contribute to the hero's identity.

Or, A moment or action that must happen to certain Spider-Men – otherwise their universe risks being destroyed.

The Canon Events connect every Spider-Person's lives together, in what Miguel name Web of Life and Destiny. It's a constant through the Multiverse.

Canon Events are real, Event ASM90 makes it clear: a police captain close to Spider-Man dies saving a kid from falling rubble during a battle with an arch-nemesis...

But Canon Event seems to be fairly flexible. Uncle Ben dies in Peter’s arms; Peter dies in Gwen’s arms; Miles loses Uncle Aaron. Every Spider-Person loses somebody they love, and this somebody can be adapted to the Spider-Person's own story – in other words, The Canon might not exactly be a prewritten rule but a guideline.

Something that need to be cleared: Miguel did study the Multiverse. It's not clear if it was after Gabriella's universe collapse or not, but he studied it to the point of being able to categorize and cross-reference the events. So far he is not wrong, much less lying. It is clear that Canon Events are a thing that exist.

Does Canon Events equal Fixed Points?

( Disclaimer: It's been years since I watch anything from the MCU. So what I'm about to say is from what I gathered from multiple wiki pages and an overview of comics. Funnily enough, the last thing I watched from the MCU was Spider-Man: No Way Home. Edit: it's been so long that I forgot the movie's name. It was actually Spider Man: Far Away From Home).

Fixed points are events in the timeline that are deemed unchangeable. Attempting to alter these points would have severe consequences, potentially destabilizing the multiverse. Fixed points are like anchors, ensuring a degree of stability in the multiversal continuum.

Miguel claims that if a Canon Event are disrupted it'll destabilize the universe up to the point of self-destruction.

Does it mean that ATSV is following the MCU take on the multiverse? Not necessarily.

In the MCU there's this thing called Incursions. Here's a short description:

An Incursion occurs when the boundary between two universes erodes and they collide, destroying one or both entirely.

Several people in the fandom dove into the conclusion that this is what happened to Gabriella's universe; Miguel interacted with it, his different molecule's resonance might have interfered with the syntonic nature of Gabriella's reality, the boundary between the two universes collided and her universe collapsed.

It even could be true, even if it was the rare case where the Incursion killed only Gabriella's universe and somehow Earth-918b – Miguel's universe, where the HQ is located – survived.

But it's not. Incursions are exactly what divert the Sony Animated Universe of the MCU, ironically. Why?

Because if the Incursion was a thing in the ATSV then the Spider-Society wouldn't be able to exist, and they couldn't constantly interact with each other, or interfere in another multiverse (even if it's to hunt down an anomaly).

One could argue that they can interfere because of their Dimensional Device – that stabilizes then enough so they can walk around multiple universes without falling dead from molecular decay.

But if that was what prevented Incursions then Gabriella's universe wouldn't be destroyed at all.

"Maybe it only works because they don't stay a lot of time in another dimensions plus they only go to other universes to deal with anomalies!"

Y'all forgot that Gwen was crashing in Hobie's dimensions? She said that it's been months since she was recruited (months since she reveled her identity to her father and, since then, apparently didn't go back to her dimension). Months, and it wasn't to deal with an anomaly, yet neither her or Hobie's dimension collapsed.

Even if she wasn't in his dimensions constantly and was somewhere else, or did go back to her dimension, don't forget the whole HQ in Earth-918 full of people from other universes – has a gym and a cafeteria, therapy offices, wouldn't be surprised if it had dorms, encouraging the Spider-Heroes to stay there for longer and interact with each other.

Mayday wasn't supposed to exist if Incursions were a thing. She was born because of Miles' influence in Peter B.'s life.

Which means ATSV doesn't have Incursions, at least not the way MCU has it even if the writers want us to see it as the same Multiverse. Ergo, Fixed Points are not necessarily Canon Events.

We know Canon Events exist and are constants through the Multiverse, but we don't know if breaking a Canon Event can cause the death of an universe because the only instance where this happened before our eyes Spot was involved and thus disqualified the data. All we have is Miguel's word for it.

Maybe Canon Events are just a pattern.

But if Canon Events are just a pattern, then why did Gabriella's universe collapse?

Here's two not-mutally-exclusive theories:

When Miguel assumed the place of his variant, the universe saw him as a parasite, someone that should have died but didn't. It self-destructed itself as a form of self-preservation that went wrong – just like we have fever when we where sick. This theory anthropomorphizes the universes, and through I like it, it's not the most probable cause. If that's what happened, then Miguel confused correlation with causation and, possibly, The Canon has nothing to do with Gabriella's universe dying.

Gabriella was supposed to be Spider-Woman. Maybe her father was who she was supposed to lose. He broke The Canon by assuming the place of his variant and this destroyed the natural order of things, resulting on the collapsing of the universe.

Let's go back to the script:

MIGUEL: That’s how the story is supposed to go. Canon events are the connections that bind our lives together. But those connections can be broken. That’s why anomalies are so dangerous...[...]

MIGUEL: You break enough canon, save enough captains, we could lose everything.

Did you notice it? Miguel worries about anomalies not only because they're ordinarily dangerous to innocent people, but they can break the connections – break the canon.

Think with me: The canon is the thing that binds Spider-People together, so wouldn't it make sense that anomalies only show up when a canon event is about to happen, if they're snatched by holes in the multiverse's fabric? Wouldn't it be easier for them to show up at the points where the universes naturally junction? Or somehow it triggers a canon event?

Take Vulture as an example. If Miguel hadn't showed up, were Gwen going to die before her time? Get permanently wounded? Something else? We know that the Canon event was supposed to happen that day because of what Layla says, "The Canon remains intact", indicating it was something that were already being monitored, the model already had a prediction for it.

Coming back to Miguel. He is determined that he broke the Canon, trillions of lives died because of it if you consider the whole universe collapsed, which goes further into other planets, other galaxies. And, if so far he was right about the Canon, wouldn't he be right about this too? Or do you think he – a man that lost his (foster) daughter – wouldn't look into why the whole universe collapsed, why she died in his hands?

There's no way to soften this. Her death is his fault and her blood is in his hands.

He's the founder of Spider-Society, assumed the role as leader. He settled a supporting system through it for mourning Spiders. If he wasn't competent and fundamentally good then a legion of Peter Parkers wouldn't follow his orders, the Spider-Society wasn't going to exist.

Miguel doesn't want anybody else to make the same mistake– this doesn't mean he doesn't make other mistakes. That's why he lashes out at Gwen and why he explains to Miles what will happen to his dad. This was a mistake that he undoubtedly committed. He shouldn't have told Miles what would happen if he wanted utmost trust that the Canon wasn't going to be broke.

He wanted Miles to believe in him.

MIGUEL: You have a choice between saving one person and saving an entire world. Every world.

He wanted Miles to do the right thing. The Trolley Problem with extra lives at risk.

That's why he antagonizes Miles afterwards. Yes, only afterwards.

Miguel knows that he could spare Miles the pain if he listened. He only gets angry and haunts Miles down when he notices Miles won't listen and that the same story will repeat just in front of his eyes.

Miguel knows what will happen if Miles save his dad. Miguel is trying to save people.

But then what will happen to Miles' dad?

Two things:

Gwen already proved that it's possible to circumvent the Canon.

Actually, her dad did. Captain Stacy stopped being a Captain. He resigned from the Police Force. He isn't going to die anymore. You can see her relief when he says this.

The Canon wasn't broken, but it doesn't mean event ASM-90 needs to happen.

But also:

The Exception Proves The Rule.

Under [the scientific version] of the phrase, the word 'proof' is to be understood in its archaic form to mean the word 'test' (this use can be seen in the phrase the proof of the pudding is in the eating).

The example is of a hypothetical critic, Jones, who never writes a favourable review.

So it is surprising when we receive an exception: a favourable review by Jones of a novel by an unknown author. Then it is discovered that the novel is his own, written under a pseudonym. The exception tested ('proved') the rule and found that it needed to be understood a little more precisely - namely, that Jones will never write a favourable review, except of his own work.The previous evaluation of Jones's ill-nature toward others is re-affirmed by discovering the manner in which the exception falls outside the rule.

– The Exception that Proves the Rule

Let's go back Canon's definition: a moment or action that must happen to certain Spider-Men – otherwise their universe risks being destroyed.

So: a Spider-Man's Canon Events are never meant to be broken or the universe will be destroyed.

Miles Morales is an anomaly. "The spider that gave you your powers wasn’t from your dimension! It was never supposed to bite you!"

If we apply that the exception proves the rule: a Spider-Man's Canon Events are never meant to be broken or the universe will be destroyed, except if the Spider-Man himself is an anomaly.

This also proves Miguel's theory of Canon Events further.

Anyway I'm going back to sleep.

#atsv #spider man: across the spider verse #across the spider verse spoilers #across the spiderverse #atsv meta #miles morales #Miguel O'Hara #miguel o’hara #gwen stacy #did i prooferead this? no. #me!rambles #me!theories #me!headcanons #me!meta #me!atsv

[iconsumethesoulsofthedamned]

If I see one more ‘Miguel is racist ’ thing or ‘Miguel is a metaphor for *insert racist/homophobic/transphobic system*’ I’ll lose it.

He’s not any of those things he’s not even the bad guy. He’s just trying his best in his own, albeit flawed, way to help save everyone. He wants to save people just as much as miles. He doesn’t hate miles either he just doesn’t want miles to destroy the whole multiverse. (Not saying miles is a bad guy either he’s not he’s just a kid who loves his dad and is to scared and stressed to think out what the consequences might be)

Y’all just can’t comprehend nuance want to pin all your troubles on the ‘angry latino man’.

also you all are crazy if you can’t understand that the only one who was evil or being mean or wrong on purpose is the spot. But y’all went noooo he’s just a silly little guy like bitch he wants to kill Miles’s dad and everyone else and he wants to hurt miles.

Gwen? Doesn’t want to hurt anyone.

Peter b? Also doesn’t want to hurt anyone.

Jess? Doesn’t want to hurt anyone.

Miguel? Doesn’t want to hurt anyone.

Stop blaming them they are all doing their very best blame the fucking spot all of this is his fault you guys just need a scape goat because you can’t understand complicated things.

#Atsv #is this literary analysis? #across the spider verse #miguel o’hara #spider gwen #miles morales #atsv meta #jess atsv #peter b parker #I hate this fandom sometimes #the spot

[neonbrutalism]

hey so what the fuck is this stuff miguel is injecting into his arm?

There's some discussion over if he's giving himself Spider-powers or if he's hiding some of his actual powers. I think it's the latter.

It's green with a spider on it.

and when it's injected, it turns purple blood cells to spider-man blue but keeps red blood cells red.

And makes his eyes go from burgundy to having a weird lens to brown (maybe to protect them from the light?).

We don't see his fangs at all after this until he attacks the Go Home machine. In fact, we only see them before this when he's about to bite the vulture - and when the lights turn on, he puts them away and ducks his head. Like he was ashamed he was about to do that.

Maybe he's trying to give the impression that his claws are part of his suit but the rest is just too far for him, personally.

The blood thing is interesting - because it's purple and red which is clearly not, like ... usual. But it's also not standard spider-man colors?

IDK where i'm going with this. But you know.

Edit: THE GREEN WITH A SKULL SPIDER ON IT MAKES IT LOOK LIKE PESTICIDE?

#atsv #miguel o'hara #atsv meta #atsv spoilers

[all-inmoderation]

Is this a spiderverse plot hole

If miles was bitten by a spider from another dimension and it changed his dna,,, then why doesn’t he subsequently start glitching in his own universe 1610. And why does he glitch in earth 42. Aint his dna and atoms and cells and stuff changed . Idk I’m not a science person

#does anyone have answer to this or should i just continue looking over this plot hole #across the spider verse #across the spiderverse #spiderverse #spider man across the spider verse #spiderman across the spiderverse #atsv #miles morales #miles 42 #miles g morales #spiderverse meta #atsv meta #the prowler

[the-cat-and-the-birdie]

Hey y'all welcome back to the hit show

'You MFers Be Racist!'

I'm your host, Roman and on today's show we're gonna be talking about how Miguel, a Latino man looks... Latino.

*audience gasps*

Now audience, what if I told you there's literally people mad they made Miguel darker in ATSV 😭😭

They're saying it's racist because 'if a black character got turned white-'

Like they ain't even change his ethnicity. Just the fact that he's darker makes them angry.

Same hair color same eye color but he's like four shades darker

Oh my god the creators are so evil for making a *checks notes* brownskin Latino man

Someone said they prefer Miguel's ATSV design because of the brownskin Latino rep

- and they got called an Anti-White Racist (me and Hobie cackling in the next room) and then anon tried to explain how ethnicities and races in Mexico work

Y'all do not understand how pervasive racism is in the Spider-man community.

It goes to show how so many 'allies' work and cheer for black solidarity UNTIL black or brown people do something they can't relate to.

Oh, Hobie might wanna date black girls to bond over the shares experiences of racism and anti-blackness? NO THAT'S RACIST how dare he hold parts of his blackness so dear that he wants to be able to share it to his partner with complete understanding? Race shouldn't matter at all to him!! And if it does he's a racist and so are you!!!!!!! You holding your culture dear is not allowed.

For the racists in the fandom, It's racist and upsetting to imply that POC might have a stronger connection to a black character than them.

Oh, brown Latinos are happy that Miguel is brown skin rep now? NO THAT'S RACIST how dare you change the characters skin color by four shades darker even if he's still the same ethnicity and nationality.

How dare you give rep to a largest part of the demographic he's always been apart of

Y'all are the mfers that gave Zendaya - a mixed race self-described Black woman - a hard time.

Yeah mfer I ain't forget that shit!!!!!

Back when casting Zendaya as MJ was seen as racist and 'race switching' and 'what if they made Miles white that wouldn't be okay so this shouldn't be okay either'

even though there's already a white Spider-man but no black canon spiderman love interest despite the character being around for over half a fucking century.

Because even though Zendaya shares Caucasian ancestory like Mary-Jane has, Zendaya is very clearly a person of color, and since she doesn't look white, that's not enough.

(And don't even get me STARTED on the shit she got for actually dating Tom. Or people who say they want his Black Cat to be white so he can 'get back to' yt women)

Sure, Miguel is mixed - sharing white ancestory with his father. But he's clearly a person of color now, and since he doesn't look white anymore, that's not enough for y'all.

The racism is wild. It's wild and clear.

And that's all from me folks! See you next time on 'Y'all MFers be Racist!!'

Maybe next time we can talk about how Jessica Drew wasn't that much in the wrong. And how she was way less in the wrong than Peter B. And how y'all put responsibility on Black women while also giving a pass to white male incompetency in the same breath.

Tune in next time because trust me these racists will strike again and so will I 😭😭🧐🧐

#n e ways #Hobie Brown likes Black partners he loves them #spiderman #spider man #atsv #marvel #across the spiderverse #miguel o'hara #miguel o hara #miguel ohara #racism #antiblackness #atsv meta

[tobytost]

okay I really thought that Miguel is going to be a lot more fucked up in the head than he really was because of the way the random talked about him

he was just kinda an ass to Miles but he's silly and funny (come on he's a spiderman it's in his nature!!)

fandom really exaggerates his derangement, he's redeemable lol

#toby talk #miguel o'hara #atsv #atsv meta #I think?? #anyway #i couldn't take him that seriously

[underthestarlitsky]

you know, there are multiple scenarios here, actually, in regards to what the fuck spider-verse’s deal with the canon events actually is

#1. Miguel Was Right. (only about some things!)

in this scenario Miguel isn’t actually wrong about canon events. every spider has a story to stick to, and every spider must follow it. this is regardless of however many spiders there were in the universe before the current one (see RIPeter of 1610 before Miles and the presumed Peter Parker who existed before Miguel became spider-man in the year 2099.) this means that every spider loses someone at the start of their career, then a police captain close to them, then perhaps a love interest (in every other universe, gwen stacy falls for spider-man…)

anyway. if Miguel is right about canon events, then he is wrong about Miles not being spider-man. if he right about Miles being an anomaly, then he is wrong about canon events. this is because if Miles is not a spider-man, then he does not have to follow canon events to protect his universe.

but this scenario is based on Miguel being right about canon events — so then Miguel’s alternate universe adventure that ended so terribly WAS actually caused by:

- Miguel EITHER disrupting the canon events of Gabriella’s universe OR

- because he skipped out on his OWN canon events OR

- because the universe falling apart WAS a canon event for spider-man 2099 only.

we the audience know Miles isn’t TOO much of a breakaway from spider-canon because while the original canon is built from adventures of Peter Parker’s life and the Peters of spider-HQ outnumber the unique Spiders 10000:1, single anomalies still exist: jess, gwen, peni, hobie, margo, malala, ben and others who we haven’t met (anya corazon, cindy moon, etc). It would follow that their “canon events” may happen differently/may be completely different to the peter-parker canon, and because we know that a peter parker already existed in 2099 canon, there is no SET canon for what comes after peter parker dies. any one of the above works, but one and two seem circumstantial to me as opposed to three, which seems the most accurate. if miguel is right about canon events, he might be wrong about how they relate to every spider — which would explain how gwen ended up dodging it without her universe falling apart, as well as pavitr dodging it (we are disregarding the black hole under mumbattan). if miguel is right about the canon but wrong about the events, it would explain why he out of all the spiders was the only one who experienced a universe collapse, because it’s a canon event ONLY for spider-man 2099.

#2. Unknown Factors Causing Interference

fact of the matter is that we do NOT know anything concrete about Gabriella’s universe. we DO know that alt-Miguel died there, that Miguel replaced him, and that the universe collapsed soon after.

what we do NOT know is how long Miguel was there, if that universe had a spider-man already, and WHAT ELSE was going on there.

- Miguel’s time spent there doesn’t matter TOO much*; however, it would point us in the direction of how much their timeline changed with Miguel’s appearance in their universe if we knew how much time there was for him to fuck shit up.

- if that universe HAD a spider-man already, then Miguel being there would have possibly POSSIBLY destabilized the universe to the point of destruction. that’s also IF Miguel was acting as Spider-Man and not just Miguel O’Hara. if that universe DIDNT have a spider-man, it’s possible Miguel’s appearance there maybe altered the course for the production of one; perhaps alt-miguel was Gabriella’s canon event for HER to become Spider-man (MAYBE) and Miguel changed it by essentially making it look like her dad never died (on the surface. the horror of it all is a different discussion) point being that perhaps he accidentally wiped that universe’s spider-man 2099 without filling in as spider-man, so maybe that’s what got messed up.

- the Spiders have a LOT of enemies. we have no idea what other forces are at play here. throughout every other universe in the spiderverse Alchemax was trying to gain access to other dimensions with the super-collider somewhere in NYC. Miguel’s Nueva York doesn’t seem to have the same problem, BUT, who knows what Gabriella’s Nueva York looked like? if it’s 2099, technology is infinitely more powerful and what if some futuristic descendent (like, idk, a niece or something) of Doc Ock’s accidentally vaporized the universe? If not through a super-collider, then through something else. if Miguel wasn’t spider-man in Gabriella’s universe, he would have no real understanding of the danger he was walking into; thus, a universe destroyed, but not at Miguel’s hands.

#3. There Is A Meta-Canon (?!)

see, the thing about being an audience to a film is that we see it as self-contained. within the story itself though, the characters see their universes as fundamentally separate from each other, joined together only by a “canon”.

Miguel theorizes that the canon is individually attached to every spider-person across the multiverse, meaning that all these universes are linked through their similarities. however, what they have not considered, is that there is a Larger canon (ie, the Narrative) moving behind the scenes. if Miles becoming spider-man was unscripted, how come RIPeter died when Miles was bit? what force decided that two spider-people in one universe was a bigger problem than RIPeter not sticking to the canon (ie, DYING) before his time? if Miles is an anomaly, how come he’s still around? according to Miguel, the universe wipes out any unscripted things that happen - for example, if the spider from earth-42 wasn’t meant to be on 1610, 1. how did it end up there and 2. how come miles’s universe didn’t collapse? how is 1610 STILL up and running even with the multiverse interference (which only happened to a handful of spiders, so it can’t really be a canon event, right?) and how come

the answer to this question is the existence of some larger invisible Meta-Canon (the Narrative) except it exists in their world. there is a story that ties all these spiders together, a Canon (or Fate, if you will) that wrote gabriella’s world out of existence, that brought the multiverse to Miles, that made the Spot an existential threat to the entire multiverse. the only issue is that no one KNOWS what the canon is, so they can’t do anything else except what they would do in the situation — ie, PLAY OUT THE STORY as was intended. essentially, fate reinvented. it’s not NEW information; there is obviously a STORY to be told in the spiderverse movies, that’s why they exist at all. however, the existence of either fate/metacanon IN-universe changes everything, because that means there are no REAL parameters for miguel’s theories or any reason at all for the “canon” to be followed, if there’s a larger story working itself out. only the elements NEEDED for this - peter b’s canon being followed exactly, miles not following any of it apart from aaron’s death - would then be utilised, and everything else would be chalked up to fate. A Preset Story** that a cluster of universes have to follow would technically override the individual canons that each spider has to follow, making it so that the canon event theory is nothing more than an in-universe motivator to push Miles and Miguel and everyone else into the next stage of their Lives or Stories.

#4. Miguel was Wrong Entirely (It’s Okay He’s Still Hot)

you know how they say fear makes you freeze up? Miguel experienced so much fear that fateful day he lost Gabriella that his brain got permanently stuck in canon-event-theory acceptance mode and now he can’t move on. there are a lot of blanks in his story, but accounting for the fact that he’s a hero (or, supposed to be, at least), i’m choosing to assume any omissions were nothing villainous (there’s theories that HE killed alt-Miguel, that he knew what was going to happen and stuck around anyway, etc) which means we are missing information, but not that kind changes how events would have played out.

however, none of this guarantees ANYTHING in terms of Miguel being right. as stated previously, there are too many inconsistencies throughout the universes for the canon-event theory to be real.

for one: why would miguel’s canon events impact another universe? presumably gwen and peter b. and the rest of the itsv cast had canon events that needed to be happening while they were stranded on 1610 - miles’ universe didn’t fall apart. similarly, why would another earth’s canon events be impacted by an intruder that the universe couldn’t crush? spider-42 bit Miles and was immediately killed, but Miles’s universe didn’t fall apart when Miles’s canon changed and RIPeter died. if Miguel was the problem in Gabriella’s world, why did he survive instead of the universe? And wouldn’t Peter B getting there and trying to help made things worse?

And another thing: we see Miles interrupt a canon event*** in Pavitr’s universe, and a black hole opens up under Mumbattan. Miguel cites this as his universe falling apart because of a lack of adherence to canon, but RIPeter in ITSV explicitly says to Kingpin that he’s “not gonna let him open up a black hole under Brooklyn!” assuming both alchemax colliders were built for the same purpose, spot managing to run the collider did exactly what RIPeter predicted: a black hole under New York City somewhere. this means that Spot and the collider are the explicit and ONLY reason that Mumbattan has a black hole now, especially as the supposed reaction to canon deviation is disintegration.

#5. Spiders Exist Outside the Narrative (Miguel is Wrong 2: Electric Boogaloo)

After everything is said and done, there is still the problem of the multiverse. Canon event theory is essentially another name for parallel universe theory, except that it only logistically only applies to Spiders and not every person on every earth****, because Spider have a thing in common that draws them together - being a Spider-Person.

this theory would be a counter to theory #3; and probably closer in spirit to the way BTSV is going to go: instead of the spiders being trapped in a larger narrative that forces events to happen, actually, the Spiders are the only ones that are free from canon events— HOWEVER, this is only if they are in the wrong universe.

for example, take Gwen Stacy. we know that she didn’t go back to her home universe in the end, that she crashes at Hobie’s and hangs around Spider-HQ in Nueva York going on missions and etc. we know that Peter Parker was her FIRST canon event, and that she went through the multiverse after that and found Miles and etc. Her second event - Captain Stacy dying to save a child, something that (almost) happened in Pavitr’s universe six months after he became spider-man, somehow still hasn’t happened to her. Could it be that her timeline is more stretched out? maybe. OR, more likely (to me, at least) the universe waited around for her to come back.

IF the spiders are truly free from the confines of their narratives while they’re physically NOT there, if they’re the only free agents in a world (that isn’t theirs!) ruled by an overarching destiny, that would explain why Miles was ABLE to save Captain Singh at all instead of something else killing him anyway. It explains why Captain Stacy never died — in the time Gwen was gone, he couldn’t die because a Spider-Person had to be there, to watch their Captain die. Now the issue is that if Spider-Man is a free agent, anyone who exists as his equal is too — which is why only random spider-man villains were being swapped over between universes (at least as far as I can tell; in ITSV there was the idea that the collider was keyed to the Spider-DNA which is why it pulled spiders from every universe, but it’s never explained why only spider-villains are being displaced across spacetime, and not like, random civilians) which is why Miles’s canon event can happen without him being there - the Spot can straight up kill Jeff Davis with or without crashing a building onto him just like how Pavitr’s canon event was rolled into a multiversal villain attack. However, if Miles never goes home, the prophecy doesn’t come true, because if Spider-man and the Spot never fight, Jefferson will have no reason to be at the scene of the crime because there would BE no scene and no crime. to kill him non-canonly would be like destroying everything ATSV set up at all, like how coincidentally Spot sees the same future Miguel does, because it’s a “canon event”.

but anyway. if Spiders are free agents, it explains why the impact of the Spider-gang and then Spider-band on various universe left a mark; why people were saved and not then immediately killed right after they left. This theory would also mean that theory #2 concerning Miguel’s actions in Gabriella’s universe is also true; the collapse of her universe was probably not due to inherent difference of dimension, but rather because of whatever actions he/someone else took while he was there that destabilized her universe. the free-of-date agent theory would also explain why Mayday exists without Peter B’s universe disintegrating when she clearly could not have existed without Peter leaving and coming back rejuvenated, and, of course, the Spot’s existence as a whole, because I highly doubt Miles would’ve made it to Alchemax and thrown that bagel at Ohnn had Peter not arrived there and then stolen that CPU with Miles in the first place.

tl:dr it has been more than a month since i first watched spider-verse and i still can’t figure it out. very excited to see where they take it in the next one. can’t wait ‼️

*an incursion a la dr strange rules from multiverse of madness can not really be the answer here; miguel had the watch to keep him from glitching in other universes, and we know that gwen consistently hangs out in hobie’s universe without anything happening, so “spending too much time” in another universe is probably not the answer

**the issue with this is that the spider-verse movies have a heavy focus on choices and individual actions and belonging as themes, and so a meta-narrative universe would be sort of left field if the third act of spiderverse makes it so that Miles isn’t making choices on his own, he was always destined to make them. still a fun brain exercise to run simulations on though

***Miles also interrupts earth-42’s spider-man process - i.e. a Canon Event. Miles G. was supposed to become Spider-Man, except it never happened, and yet earth-42 is still proudly non-disintegrated, no matter how terrible it may be

****we see many different people, not just peter parker, be spider-people. this means that every one else on earth wouldn’t be able to find their counterparts in all these different universes; either because the universes are too different and the same iterations of civilians don’t exist, or because minor changes in a civilian’s life can divorce them entirely from their alter-earth counterparts, should they even have them. the only reason Spiders have counterparts is because Being A Spider is the only thing that allows you to have an actual reflection of yourself in a different world, because you share the common trait of being a Spider-Hero

#long post #atsv #itsv #into the spider verse #meta #atsv meta #this is formatted so badly i’m so sorry #miles morales #miguel o’hara #gwen stacy #peter b parker #across the spider verse #i’m telling u i should’ve been a humanities student explaining is everything to me

[yourdorkiness]

I think there can be something to be said about villainizing characters the moment they make a mistake which causes them to oppose the protagonist, and how our reactions when defending these characters should instead be an acknowledgement circumstances along with their mistakes. 

Yes I’m talking about Gwen Stacy. Spoilers for atsv below!

Let’s take a look at how Gwen is during the beginning of the story, shall we?

Gwen starts off the movie in her watercolor mood ring world isolated and guilt ridden. In a world where emotions are so easily expressed by splashes of colour, her emotions are very rarely expressed. She isolates herself from others due to her identity as Spider-Woman, and the guilt she feels for being unable to save her best friend, Peter Parker.

Because Gwen can’t share this part of her identity with others, she is unable to confide in or be emotionally vulnerable towards her bandmates and father, isolating herself even further, and making her yearn for friends like Miles who she feels would able to understand all of her, spiderperson included. 

It doesn’t help that her relationship with her father is distant and strained because of her superhero identity is something Gwen knows her father disapproves of and the Peter guilt enforces her a bunch of her self loathing. Meanwhile her father believes that capturing Spider-Woman and avenging Peter will fix his relationship with his daughter and gives her the closure he believes she needs rather than just talking to her about what would give her closure.

Speed ahead to the confrontation with her father, and Gwen reveals herself to her father, hoping that him can accept her despite the things she’s kept from him. And her father can’t accept her at that moment, he shoots a gun at her, so she runs away. She is now even more isolated then ever, with no one to accept her for who she is, tell her that her superhero identity and the guilt that comes with that doesn’t have to something she has to carry alone, she doesn’t need to resign herself to a life of loss and never being acknowledged for who she truly is. But her dad isn’t there for her, until the Spider Society is.

This is where I think there’s a shift in her Gwen’s character. She embraces her spider-identity under the Spider Society who understand the trauma and difficult choices that comes with being a Spiderperson, and starts to buy into the pessimistic ideology of “canon”. 

The “canon” introduced by Miguel O’Hara suggests that the traumatic events that occur throughout a Spiderperson’s life is what is needed to ensure the multiverse’s stability. This can appeal to a lot of Spiderpeople, Gwen in this period of the story especially because if being unable to save your friend is crucial to the universe’s stability and to the spiderman narrative, then they can be assured they are heading in the right direction. People in the Spider Society like Miguel couldn’t save so many people despite being a superhero, they couldn’t “do both” as Pavitr and Miles expressed, so if they tell themselves they can only have one option, it erases the consequences of failing to do both.

And then because Gwen is so haunted by her father’s reaction, she chooses to once again withhold her actual feelings for Miles and not explain to him the difficult choice of choosing to lose people when it’s seemed like all Gwen’s done through the movie is lose. Their falling out is honestly a post in itself, so I’ll save that for some other time. 

Let me know what you guys think :))

#across the spiderverse #atsv #i love gwen sm and her story arc was amazing #also love how so much of her story arc can be read as a trans allegory the writing was absolutely insane #atsv meta #mostly just ramblings #shes been marinating in my mind like that microwave meme #gwen stacy #spider woman #ghost spider #atsv spoilers #spiderverse #spiderman across the spiderverse