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sad-drake-lyrics · 9 months

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what my 65yo father has to say about antis:

let me preface this by saying, i literally wish i had what just happened on video to go viral on TikTok. i was shook by this conversation down to my bones; and if you could see my father - a loud old Italian man with dramatic hand gestures - say what he had to say, i think this shit would blow up. but as i was obviously not filming him while we were eating, i will have to relay to you the story with my words.

so i'm sitting eating dinner at the coffee table with my father while watching TV, as Americans often do instead of eating at the dinner table, and since the news was on he started telling me this story that had been recently mentioned on TV once again from maybe ten years ago (it was in 2014, you can read about it here) where these two 12-year-old girls killed one of their friends as a sacrifice to the Slender Man. yeah, real thing. fucked up.

and so my father told me about how they interviewed one of the killer's mothers, and when questioned about where her daughter's motive could've come from, she said something along the lines of: you know, when i was a kid, i was into Stephen King and horror - and so when my kid was into that kind of stuff, i didn’t think it was a big deal.

so, of course, my response was "yeah, being into that stuff isn’t a big deal at all - it's normal - but being a sociopath and murdering someone is not normal; it's fucked up. but there's nothing wrong with being into horror stories - they're just stories meant to entertain - it doesn't make you a murderer to enjoy Halloween - but it would if you put on a Michael Myers mask and went out and stabbed people." and, of course, like any sane person, my father agreed with me.

then, continuing this line of conversation, i started talking about the concept of how "fiction isn’t reality," and how a frightening amount of people don't understand that; and i literally started telling him about antis - people on the internet who attack and harass others over "problematic" or "inappropriate" fictional interests.

i used well-known pop culture examples like: if you're into Game of Thrones and like Jaime and Cersei together or wanted Jon and Daenerys to end up together (i didn't think he would process the term "shipping," but clearly by the end of this conversation i think i was wrong), that people (antis) will say things like "you should die," and that you "support inc*st in real life," and that "you're disgusting."

i also used the examples of "toxic relationships" in pop culture, like the Joker and Harley Quinn, or Kylo Ren and Rey, and how if you’re into those kinds of fictional relationships that people (antis) will say that you "support toxic relationships," and that you are "glorifying abuse," and that it all "must be what you really want and believe is right or good."

and my fucking 65-year-old father literally goes: "I don’t understand. It’s a TV show. Don't they know it’s fake?"

queue my jaw dropping to the fucking ground because i'm like. YES. THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT PRO-SHIPPERS ARE TRYING TO SAY AND THESE PEOPLE DON'T GET IT.

he was flabbergasted, my pals. the shock in his eyes was incredible to behold.

and, oh boy, that isn't even the best part, guys.

my father then says, "Don’t tell me it’s like that with anime too?"

and i said, "it's worse with anime."

and i fucking swear to you - no joke, on my life and baby Jesus' cradle - again my 65-year-old father looks at me and says, “It’s a fucken cartoon."

... ... ...

... i can't ...

i can't end this post better than that.

#anti anti #anti harassment #proship #proshipper #proshipping #pro ship #pro fiction #pro shipper #pro shipping #profic #comship #proship safe #comship safe #proship positivity #anti censorship #ship discourse #fiction is not reality #fiction is fiction #ship and let ship

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pessimisticpigeonsworld · 2 months

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On the "Choose a Side" Discourse

With HBO leaning veryyyy heavily into "pick a side" for their promos, the "no team" people are crawling out of the woodwork. I want to preface this post by saying that I'm not saying people shouldn't have favorite characters who aren't mine, nor that people should just be totally invested in fandom discourse.

I already made a post about the issues with the arguments of the "no team" people, so I'll just summarize my thoughts from that real quick. A majority of their arguments and metas are thinly veiled anti Rhaenyra thoughts. That's still true of this new wave of this group.

Now, one thing I will agree with them on is: GRRM did not write this story to be one of choose a side. However, that is not because the Blacks and the Greens are equally bad or the Targaryens are all evil. No, it's because the Greens were always in the wrong and GRRM makes this abundantly clear to us in F&B.

Let's look at some facts from the Dance. While male primogeniture is tradition, it's not the law; the king's word is law, something ASOIAF has established time and again. The Greens took the throne through underhanded ways. They left Viserys' body to rot for days while they prepared for Aegon's coronation to prevent Rhaenyra from learning and coming to KL. They forced the smallfolk to attend and most didn't cheer for Aegon, with some even calling for Rhaenyra while most were confused and angry.

Aemond drew first blood by killing the unarmed thirteen year old envoy, Lucerys Velaryon. A majority of the realm declared for Rhaenyra; 53 houses supported her, while only 28 supported Aegon. The Greens committed the greatest atrocities of the Dance: Aemond burning the Riverlands and Daeron massacring Tumbleton. They also committed the greater number of atrocities.

The Greens also lost the war. The Blacks weren't just fighting for Rhaenyra, they fought for her heirs as well. This is why they swore to her and Jacaerys; later for Aegon III after the deaths of his older brothers. The Black forces continued to fight after Rhaenyra's murder and took KL. Aegon was murdered by his own men when the Blacks were marching on KL; in other words, the Greens knew they were beat, so they killed Aegon in an attempt to save themselves. Since Aegon left no heirs aside from Jaehaera, Aegon III was crowned and married to Jaehaera. The Blacks won the war.

Aegon the Usurper's bloodline is destroyed with the deaths of Jaehaera and Gaemon Palehair. This is the final affirmation of the Greens being in the wrong. GRRM's books punish usurpers by wiping out their bloodlines; Maegor and Robert Baratheon being the most obvious examples. Aegon and all the Greens have no descendants, their bloodline is dead.

Rhaenyra's bloodline, on the other hand, continues all the way through to the main series. Daenerys Targaryen, the most powerful character in the series, is her descendant, as is Jon Snow (unconfirmed as of now in the books) who is another of the key five. Rhaenyra may have died, but her faction won the war and her bloodline will save the world through her two greatest descendants (alongside the rest of the key five).

The Dance of the Dragons is, ultimately, a story of the damage the patriarchy does and how misogyny is destructive to the world. The Dance caused the death of the dragons and a great loss of power for women in the realm. Queen consorts after Rhaenyra had markedly less power and there was a drop in female leaders of the great houses. The loss of the dragons caused the weakening of magic in the world as a whole.

The Dance isn't about who your favorite war criminal is, nor is it about the evil of the Targaryens. It's about misogyny; something HOTD seems to have forgotten. Even before they started pushing TB vs TG so hard, they still missed the point.

It doesn't matter that Rhaenyra isn't a perfect, or even a good, person. It doesn't matter that Rhaenyra is non-conforming, plays the political game, and exploits her father's favor. Rhaenyra could have been as pious and well-behaved as Naerys and the Greens still would have usurped her. Rhaenyra could have had children with Laenor, and still the Greens would have usurped her. HOTD tries to paint the usurpation as partially being on Rhaenyra and her choices, but nothing Rhaenyra could have done would have been good enough.

The Blacks are the protagonists of the Dance. Are they perfect? No. Are they heroes? No. GRRM loves his gray characters, the Blacks are no exception. If you people want a story with black and white morality and perfect protagonists, go read another book. Just because people aren't perfect and don't operate exclusively in what's right according to our modern standards doesn't mean they aren't the protagonists.

In conclusion: there isn't a TB vs TG discourse in the Dance because the Greens are the antagonists and completely in the wrong. The point of the Dance is that the misogyny of the Greens damaged the realm. Rhaenyra is the rightful queen, there is no actual argument for Aegon or any of his allies.

Rhaenyra is the rightful queen to Westeros, go cry to George if you don't like it.

#rhaenyra targaryen #queen rhaenyra #asoiaf #house of the dragon #team black #anti team green #anti team green stans #anti aegon ii targaryen #the blacks #dance of the dragons #hotd s2 #anti hotd

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jackoshadows · 2 years

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Hi, so I watched GoT+ am on asoiaf 1 rn and I have a Q about Dany; why is her character so divisive? I read meta by pro Dany fans and its "Dany's compassionate, self critical, a good ruler, a political reformer, frees slaves she'll be a hero at the end" and the antis "shes entitled, vengeful, profiter of slavery, a coloniser and GRRM wont validate a foreign invasion with nuclear weapons; hes anti war!!" Like, wHAt? Surely her character cant be THAT ambigious?! These are popular opposites??

Alright, I'll try to explain this from my perspective as a Jon Snow fan. However, this will be spoilery if you have read only one book. I would suggest reading all the books before joining in on discussions about the character.

It's a combination of things.

One is most definitely sexism. I don't throw that word around lightly having been constantly attacked as a ‘sexist dudebro who hates women’ for simply critiquing a female character.

Sexism in fandom is when female characters are held to different standards compared to their male counterparts. When female characters are critiqued or disliked for doing the same thing that male characters are often praised for doing. Daenerys is subjected to a lot of this which is especially evident in the books because she has a parallel arc of leadership with Jon Snow over at the Wall - the two characters at the ends of the world.

An example is right there in your ask. GRRM is anti-war and hence why would he validate Dany's invasion - She is therefore in the wrong. Okay. In which case why not extend that argument to every other main character in the series? GRRM is anti-war and therefore Robb Stark was wrong to wage war for Northern independence. GRRM is anti-war and therefore Jon Snow is wrong to help Stannis in his battle against the Boltons. GRRM is anti-war and therefore Tyrion is wrong to use wildfire and defeat Stannis at the battle of the blackwater. GRRM is anti-war and therefore Jon Snow is the villain of the battle at Castle Black.

I think the main thesis of GRRM’s argument in regard to his protagonists has been that there is no good or bad and instead they are all morally gray? Yeah war is bad and most of our protagonists engage in war and they are therefore morally grey characters. I mean, Jon Snow is over there taking child hostages that he has promised to behead - does that make him a baddie? Ned Stark took Theon as a child hostage. Is he a baddie? Our main characters all belong to noble houses in a feudal monarchy - a system of governance that GRRM relentlessly critiques in the books. Are they all baddies?

This double standard is particularly glaring when Dany's battles in Essos is about helping the little guy - the slaves who are under the worst kind of oppression. The WOT5K (War of the 5 Kings) on the other hand was about personal power, ravaged the land and lead to much devastation and suffering. However, for some strange reason when fandom discusses the books and the author being anti-war they focus particularly on Daenerys - that strange reason is sexism.

If you have watched GOT, I am sure you would have noticed those obvious double standards yourself.

Tyrion standing there making sad faces makes it look like Daenerys is doing something wrong when she executes the Tarlys - two treasonous traitors. However every other House does the same! Jon Snow executed the mutineers at the wall - even a child. After the battle of bastards, he mentions the Karstarks and Umbers having been killed in battle or else they would have been executed. Sansa wants to punish even their children!! But for some strange reason [(i.e) sexism] a female leader executing traitors is evil. That she does so without crying (Something the show runner David Benioff points out in an BTS interview) means she is evil. Jon not crying when killing people = badass, Dany not crying when killing people = evil.

Daenerys in battle with Jaime Lannister to get the Iron Throne = evil. Starks fighting against the Boltons to get Winterfell = Yay! Awesome. Thousands die in both battles - in one battle they die, burned by dragonfire. In the other one they are hacked to death and die with their guts hanging out. In both cases, people die.

The show quickly moves past Jaime Lannister, the Tarlys and their men massacring everyone of Olenna's men and piling their bodies high and sacking and looting the place. However, the show takes time to linger on Tyrion's sad face with the sad music and the men dying when Daenerys is attacking those same men on the battlefield.

I am not even getting into season 8 because it was so, so bad and full of puke inducing sexism that will need 10 pages to outline. I think you have got the gist of why sexism is such a large factor in how Dany's character is otherized and analyzed by fandom at large and made worse by Benioff and Weiss' rampant misogyny shining through in the show's writing.

I mentioned this in another post and I will say again - removing show Tyrion from show Daenerys' narrative would reduce the sexism in her story arc ten fold. He was D&D's mouthpiece in the series after season 5 - there to tell us that Dany was evil for doing all the things the male characters did.

And yes, Nuclear weapons are bad. Nuclear weapons can also be a deterrent and prevent war. Nuclear weapons can also be useful in a fantasy, magical world dealing with an existential apocalyptic threat. This is why I find one to one comparisons like these to be ridiculous. The Starks also have some fiercesome beasts that the author has indicated will be used in battle. Are we calling them evil?

The rest. Colonizer? They should look up what that means and whether it applies to Dany's story in Essos. Profiting off slavery? If one reads the books one knows this is blatantly untrue. Entitled and vengeful? No more than any of the other main characters who belong to noble houses in Westeros.

Daenerys has her flaws, not saying that she doesn't. That's what makes her a three-dimensional and relatable character. It's easy to criticize the character because she does self-reflect and introspect, is sometimes crippled by self-doubt and wants to do things differently and try different options - something that makes her human and real and very well written. Leadership is not easy and she’s 15 in the last book.

The other aspect is a flaw in the writing with respect to the setting of Daenerys' story in the series. She's the only main POV character in Essos until Arya and Tyrion get there in ADwD. And there is a lot of orientalism in GRRM's writing for Essos - meant to represent the East while Westeros represents the West.

There's much to say about how he writes the Dothraki as savage barbarians. While he gives POV characters for the Ironborn with Theon and Asha and characters like Mance, Tormund and Ygritte for the Freefolk, where's the equivalent of all that for the Dothraki? Oh but look, they are eating honeyed locusts! How exotic! There's lots of cartoonishly evil slavers who kill puppies! GRRM keeps otherizing their customs and culture as being savage and cruel and different - highlighted by the fact that we don't have a single Essosi POV giving us their side of things.

I do find GRRM's orientalism distasteful and off putting, especially as Essos is just a prop, a stepping stone for the characters before they move onto Westeros where the real story is happening. That is however a critique of the writing, not of the character. People tend to conflate the two. A middle aged white man writing in the nineties about a fantasy eastern world does not make Daenerys a 'white savior' or a 'colonizer' and it's clear from various interviews the author has given that this was not his intention either.

Daenerys is also the only Targaryen POV in the books. Think about that. The Starks have 6 POVs in the first book. The Lannisters get 3 by AFfC. The Greyjoys have 4, the Martells have 2. The only major house worse off than the Targaryens are the Baratheons with no POV characters.

We see Jon Snow through Arya and Bran’s POV. We see Arya through Jon’s. We get none of this for Dany. The Starks have a home and a loving family. Dany meanwhile is starting off the story at her lowest point - an abusive brother and forcefully married off to a Dothraki. While the Starks then end up losing that security, family members die, one of them is a hostage and the other is on the run - they still have memories of each other. Danerys meanwhile, slowly and painfully works her way to the top.

Reminds me of a post I responded to the other day, where the OP said that Arya and Jon cannot be underdogs because they are winners (Whatever that means). That’s the attitude that a lot of fandom has towards Daenerys - now that she is queen and has power, she has it easy compared to the likes of Sansa and the rest of the Starks. Ignoring that when the books started Daenerys was in a way worse position than any of the Starks.

This is a fandom that thinks that Sansa Stark deserves to be Queen in the North because she’s beautiful, has good manners and is a Stark. And this is the same fandom who think that Daenerys, who worked her way to the top - with no family to help, no happy childhood, no teachers, no security of food and shelter, who were beggars and on the run at one point - the Daenerys who is currently spending an entire book ruling a city state, making trade deals, dealing with an insurgency and famine, engaging in marriage diplomacy to sue for peace for the slaves she freed, that Daenerys is entitled. Do you agree?

I am a Jon Snow fan and even I can see how utterly ridiculous the fan discourse around Daenerys is. When the show was on, I was only posting about Jon and there was so much anti Dany stuff on the Jon Snow tags I had to wade into discussion about the character. And the more I defended her, the more I ended up re-reading her chapters, the more I ended up loving the character. There’s so much hypocrisy and sexist double standards where the character is concerned.

And I have not even touched upon the obnoxiousness that is ‘Jonsa’ - group of morons who think Sansa is the main character in a book series called A Song of Sansa and Sansa and Jon is secretly in love with Sansa who is going to be Queen with executioner/personal spymaster Arya Stark and her consort Jon Snow who will sexually manipulate and murder Daenerys for his great love Sansa.

Sansa fans make up the vast majority of asoiaf fans on Tumblr and the majority of them dislike Daenerys and Arya or see Dany as Sansa’s antagonist - even though these two characters have no connection in the books and I doubt they would ever interact. If you look at most of the anti Dany posts on here, they will be made by someone with a Sansa pfp. There are posts about how Jon will kill Dany or how Arya will kill Dany, and if you look at their blogs they will be big Sansa fans.

These are the same people who write essays on how Arya is not a real girl or is ‘male-coded’ or who write essays on how Daenerys only uses ‘threats and force’ whereas Sansa is apparently a political genius who uses ‘Soft Power’ - a foreign policy concept - because she talked down 13 year old idiot Joffrey that one time. When in the actual books, it’s Daenerys who has used Soft Power in her marriage diplomacy with Hizdahr and Sansa has never engaged in any kind of politics with actual adults.

Notice that these kinds of ‘metas’ are popularized by fandom bnfs using blogs like asoiafuniversity. There’s this very popular idea that’s propagated in fandom that Sansa is kind and compassionate when in the actual books there are more instances of kindness and compassion from Arya and from Daenerys. This is once again an example of how sexism and misogyny in this fandom has worked to give the wrong impressions of these characters. Arya and Daenerys are seen as more violent compared to Sansa even though Daenerys’ entire arc for two books has been about helping an oppressed population. The mind boggles!

It’s the same when it comes to love and romance. Arya and Daenerys are not considered worthy of love, romance and marriage because they are the wrong kind of girls. And let’s not bring age into this considering Sansa is 11 at the start of the books and she is the fandom bicycle shipped with every Tom, Dick and Harry.

I am not even getting into the slut-shaming and victim blaming that Daenerys gets in the fandom. There was actual discourse in this fandom on how Dany was not a good rape victim like Sansa because she brought up her rape in conversation! Daenerys is somehow seen as less than because she can’t possibly have children - that apparently makes her less of a woman and a bad partner for Jon Snow unlike Sansa Stark who will surely have ten babies!

The worst part is that’s it women who engage in this kind of discourse and the same women who turn around and gaslight the fandom into thinking that Sansa is unfairly targeted because of sexism.

There’s also the usual dislike from the fans of other characters.

There are Jon Snow fans who see him as the prophesied hero and main protagonist, who don’t like Daenerys coming over and taking away main character status. I personally think there is no one main character. IMO, Jon, Dany, Arya, Bran and Tyrion are all tier one main characters, who will work together against the Army of the Dead. [Note: This works the other way as well. I have seen Dany fans who dislike Jon Snow as well and think he is unimportant in the grand scheme of things]

There are Stannis Baratheon stans over on the Asoiaf subreddit who will excuse everything Stannis does - including burning people alive for his God - and then nitpick every single policy decision of Dany’s in order to argue she is evil or a bad ruler.

There are house Stark fans who hate House Targaryen and see them as in opposition to each other. There are fans who believe in Northern exceptionalism i.e the North is special and Dany is a threat to that specialness because she wants the 7K etc. etc.

This turned out to be a long post. On the whole, the answer to your question on why Daenerys is such a polarizing character is mainly because of sexism. There are other factors like the setting and isolation of her story, the lack of other POVs etc. The main reason though is sexism and ship wars.

#asks #ask

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finitefall · 1 year

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I don't know if you've read philosopher Slavoj Žižek's critique of Daenerys' ending in GoT, but I recommend it, even if you don't agree with everything. He points out precisely how she is basically punished for taking actions that no one questions when they are male characters, mainly for wanting to make changes for society.

I remember reading it once, and he does make valid points.

About the misogyny in Dany’s ending:

The finale combines the rejection of a radical change with an old anti-feminist motif at work in Wagner. For Wagner, there is nothing more disgusting than a woman who intervenes in political life, driven by the desire for power. In contrast to male ambition, a woman wants power in order to promote her own narrow family interests or, even worse, her personal caprice, incapable as she is of perceiving the universal dimension of state politics.

Daenerys as the Mad Queen is strictly a male fantasy, so the critics were right when they pointed out that her descent into madness was psychologically not justified. The view of Daenerys with mad-furious expression flying on a dragon and burning houses and people expresses patriarchal ideology with its fear of a strong political woman.

About Sansa when talking about female leads:

The one who remains (as the queen of the autonomous kingdom of the North) is Sansa, a type of women beloved by today’s capitalism: she combines feminine softness and understanding with a good dose of intrigue, and thus fully fits the new power relations. This marginalisation of women is a key moment of the general liberal-conservative lesson of the finale: revolutions have to go wrong, they bring new tyranny.

About Jon killing Daenerys:

Consequently, Jon kills out of love (saving the cursed woman from herself, as the old male-chauvinist formula says) the only social agent in the series who really fought for something new, for a new world that would put an end to old injustices

And about diversity:

And one cannot help but note that those faithful to Daenerys to the end are more diverse – her military commander is black – while the new rulers are clearly white Nordic. The radical queen who wanted more freedom for everyone irrespective of their social standing and race is eliminated, things are brought back to normal.

While also making another valid and important point: the rejection of any actual change, of any revolution, and how the finale diabolize this very idea Dany stans loved her for in the finale.

#GOT #Daenerys Targaryen #anti got #answered

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esther-dot · 1 year

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Re: Virgin Mary anon.

You said pretty much everything in your answer concerning Dany.

I’d like to add something about “The Mother” and Sansa.

In ASOIAF Sansa is clearly identified with “the Maiden” and “the Mother”, therefore she is a very young, naive and generous “Mary”, like at the Annunciation (I don’t think Martin is intending to make her end the series still a maiden but bear with me) and she is the only character in the series so far to sing The Mother’s Hymn. Sansa learnt the Hymn from her mother Catelyn btw.

The Mother’s Hymn is obviously an anti-war manifesto:

Sansa as an “intercessor”, and as a mother of human children is being set up as a foil to the Mother of Dragons, Bride of Fire, Daughter of Dead.

I saw sometime ago a meta about the dragon symbolism related to Daenerys in Apocalypses but I can’t remember the writer, it might have been @reginarubie maybe?

(continuation of this convo)

Thank you, @minitafan ! I completely agree about the song, and the fact that Sansa ends the threat of violence with it and by showing compassion certainly makes her a contrast to Dany.

Sansa begs for Joffrey and Arya to stop fighting in her first chapter, she begs for Lady's life, she pleads to save her father, she intervenes on behalf of Dontos...I think you're absolutely right that Martin is assigning her the "intercessor" role/advocate for peace.

Also, the pity she feels for Tyrion and the Hound is highlighted, even as they wrong her. Martin making her notably compassionate, even to villains and enemies of her house makes it all the more pointed.

I tend to agree that the natural resolution would be children for her, as part of this contrast between the two "mothers" (dragons/war/vengeance -- children/peace/mercy) we're being given. It isn't quite enough to be "mother of nations" when there's such a theme of literal motherhood in her chapters. Also, Lyanna is the most obvious person connected with "mother", I mentioned Cersei and Cat as takes on it as well, but at this point in the story, we don't have the good answer to Dany’s “mother” unless of course, it is Sansa.

Let's see that meta about Dany, @reginarubie!

#dot chat #sansa stark

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sixstepsaway · 2 years

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A little while ago I wrote a thing about fandom purity culture and OFMD's fandom, where I mostly talked about how I think a lot of it boils down to cultural Christianity, but I also dipped briefly into the parts of it that I think are just... capitalism.

I want to go back to that for a moment because I have been witnessing the funniest shit over on Twitter the last few days and I want to talk about it because it absolutely highlights, circles and underlines the capitalism bit for me

[tw for talk of fictional incest]

I'm sure you all know that House of the Dragon is out. I haven't watched it personally, but I did watch a lot of Game of Thrones (and the gross finale) when that was airing, and so I know what to expect from House of the Dragon: Incest.

If you don't know, somehow, HotD is based on the Targaryen family but years before the timeline of Game of Thrones. GoT (and the books, of course) established that the Targaryen family were very incestuous. They'd been marrying sisters to brothers for generations to keep their bloodlines pure.

(Now, whether that's to do with the fact they had dragon blood and they needed to keep that in the family blah blah or something else I am not sure, but it's a fact of what the family did.)

It's canon that Daenerys Targaryen's parents are siblings. She pursues a relationship in the final season of GoT with a man who turns out to be her nephew, and this bothers him a little and her not a single jot because... it's just? What her family's always done? It's also what other families in GoT have always done, including the Lannisters. It's not out of the norm for any of them and is a huge part of the books and show. Arguably it's more of a concern for Jon just because he didn't know he was from an incestuous royal family, so it wasn't really something he expected or anticipated in his life, or had to think about all that much.

Fandom has latched onto a pairing in HotD that is written as explicitly romantic and leading to an endgame for them: Daemon and Rhaenyra. House of the Dragon is leading them up to this. The books go into a lot of detail about what their relationship was like, and thusly what to expect from HotD (you can read about it here if you want) but the basics are that they will have a steamy love affair, try to be with other people, but eventually end up together, get married and have multiple children together (in fact, I believe Daenerys is a descendant of theirs? But I'm not positive).

So, to recap: HBO is proudly airing a TV show full of incest which 16-million+ people are watching weekly, George R R Martin wrote incest-full books that millions of people read that lead to this, and Ryan J. Condal created this show to air on HBO and wrote all these incestuous storylines, including making the Rhaenyra and Daemon relationship enticing enough that fandom has latched onto it.

And somehow, despite all of this, there are antis over on Twitter (and, I can only imagine, here as well) who are watching this show and then yelling... at fans, for enjoying it, writing fic about it, and making fanart about it.

One person was even complaining they only had to scroll a little to find 'incest fanart' in the House of the Dragon hashtag on Twitter and asking why people can't just be normal and not ship an uncle and his underage niece!

(Who isn't even going to stay underage in the show, mind, they're aging her up in an episode or two I believe.)

To me, this absolutely epitomizes what I was saying about capitalism in my essay about purity culture. HBO is fine. GRRM is fine. Ryan J. Condal is fine. Matt Smith who willingly signed up to play Daemon - a character who will engage in a sexual relationship with his niece - is fine.

Every person working the show who is earning money for it, who is getting paid to put this show out there, is fine. They're not doing anything wrong, you see. It's the ones who aren't getting paid who deserve death threats and being told they're awful people and normalizing incest and whatever the heck else.

Capitalism absolves. Doing it for free for a much smaller audience is the wrong here.

Now, to be clear: I don't think HBO or the writers or the actors are doing anything wrong lmao. I don't think it normalizes anything to make fun TV that includes that thing. It requires a lot more nuance and planning to normalize a taboo this strong.

What I'm saying is that these people have drunk the capitalism koolaid so deeply that they think that money makes things okay, that they act like writing incest or an age gap like Rhaenyra and Daemon's makes you a variety of terrible buzzwords (including ones beginning with P) and someone who should be taken out and shot or hate crimed, but only if you're writing it for fun and posting it on AO3, or drawing it and posting it on Twitter.

And sure, maybe they'll come argue that no! They don't think that! God! They think it's bad to air on HBO too!

...but, uh, they're watching it, is the thing. Lots of them are watching it. They're either watching it legally and contributing to the 16 million+ viewers, or they're pirating it, then talking about it and drumming up even more interest online. Either way, they're participating in its success.

So, yeah. Capitalism. They think it's okay as long as it's done Professionally and makes the participants money (even those who already have loads of money).

It's the poor, broke writers who do it because it's fun that are wrong and normalizing and fetishizing and sexualizing here!

Makes sense and isn't at all concerning...

(Also funny is that somehow someone drawing the characters or writing them together is the worst evil but the person who hired people to act it out and will surely have multiple actors act it out in softcore porn scenes isn't bad at all.)

#fandom discourse #purity culture #capitalism

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the-king-andthe-lionheart · 1 year

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I honestly hate so much the way Targaryen antis will throw around the term “n*zi” to describe the Targaryen’s while having no actual understanding of what that word actually means or the actual history of antisemitism and anti romani racism. Like I’m Jewish and I’m lucky because all four of my grandparents had left Europe before the holocaust began, but as a Jew I still feel profoundly impacted by it and the legacy that it left on the Jewish community. It just feels so cheap to use a real historical genocide to score fandom points and demonize Daenerys and argue that anyone who stans her is evil and problematic. It’s really disgusting.

Hello @daenerysthevampireslayerr !

I'm really glad your grandparents left Europe before that happened! The Holocaust was horrible and IMO one of the greatest tragedies in human history.

This fandom has a big tendency to throw around buzzwords without understanding fully what they are saying, and how throwing around these words can affect other people in fandom. They say the viliest shit and and try to act concerned about "n*zi's" and colonialism and genocide and blood purity, but they don't have a goddamn clue how their words are like a slap in the face. Seeing people compare the Targaryen conquest to colonialism is frankly fucking absurd to me. Pretending the Stark's and all of the other noble houses are natives and were "oppressed under Targaryen rule" and were "genocided" makes me want to fucking barf, as a woman from Native American descent from one side of her family, who has no fucking access to her people and to her history and to her culture due to genocide and colonialism. And then dealing with anti Native American micro-aggressions from her white side of the family every goddamn Thanksgiving, and then experiencing the erasure of her people's pain from history books. God it makes me want to break things. I could only imagine how it must feel to be Jewish and seeing people throw around words like "n*zi" and "white supremacist" and "Aryan" to describe things and people that are fictional and doesn't even compare one iota to the real thing.

I don't know what's wrong with this fandom, and it's only something I've noticed in the last few years, but for some reason throwing buzzwords out became a thing. I've been in online fandom, for various fandoms since I was in my early teens and now I'm 35, so I've been in a lot of fandoms. But only recently have I seen this being a thing. I don't know why. All I know is that the people throwing out words like this are usually the ones who either faced no oppression in their lives, or they are women who like being oppressed and are tradfems and/or tradwives and/or tradcaths.

There truly is something vile about this fandom that I've never experienced before and it honestly truly concerns me. Not only does it expose how many people are so anti-intellectual that they can't even properly research something and are baa-ing sheep, but it shows that they like using the pain of others to back up something as unimportant as a fictional gripe. It truly is disgusting.

#asoiaf

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aella-targaryen · 2 years

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Hearing your thoughts on that previous question really settles a lot of the anxiety. As a hopeless romantic, I really do wish we could get more of the lovey-dovey scenes but I also understand that the 10th episode changes the course of things and they would be at war in the 2nd season. Tensions are running high and there are bigger agendas at play. Rhaenyra will continue to lose her children and suffer and daemon would be busy fighting for her cause and for the preservation of the house. Maybe some small tender moments will appear here and there, but things will not be the same as it is in s1 so it's best if people could really accept that the tides are turning early. As far as the cheating stuff goes, I think the daemyra fandom is mostly concerned that it'll give the green/antis ammo to shit on the shippers and say ' I told you so'. That and the fact that they'd feel like the buildup of the romance would be thrown into the bin and to which I kinda agree with this one because why would the showrunners do all that and go a different route. But then again, war and trauma changes people, so in a realistic sense, daemon would seek comfort elsewhere even though he's still loyal to rhaenyra and essentially dies for her cause until the end. I also hope that they do show him dying because even though the book left it open-ended as to whether he survives or not, I cannot see it of daemon to abandon his remaining children under the Hightower's control. The only way I can see this happening is if he lost all his limbs and literally can't do shit.

Dear Anon:

Thank you for writing to me and I am very happy that my posts are of some use to some members of the fandom.

I would advise everyone to ignore Antis and Haters of any kind. There are many people on Team Green who are very kind and respectful in making their points. It may seem like I hate Alicent for example, but I really don't. I feel sorry for her. But that pity doesn't make me justify her actions nor does it make me think she's a good person and I even feel a bit of respect for Otto for fighting for what he wants no matter what the cost.

At least he is honest with himself, unlike his daughter.

The Antis are people who only want to make other people feel bad about their decisions and tastes, which makes them bad people. So don't waste your time listening to them or arguing with them. They do not deserve our attention.

We also have to remember that every romance story can end and there's nothing wrong with that as long as its ending is as good as its beginning, which is totally possible. Also, do you think Daemyra fans are going to stop supporting Rahenyra just because she is no longer in a romantic relationship with Daemon? Or that we're going to stop supporting Daemon's character even though we know the cause he's fighting for is fair? There really are very immature people out there.

Daemon not dying in the final battle against Aemond and abandoning his family definitely destroys Daemon's character with no chance of rebuilding him. It would be something very stupid to do, it would be like ruining a character as beloved as Daenerys again.

#daemyra #hotd #daemon x rhaenyra #daemon targaryen #rhaenyra targaryen #rhaenyra x daemon #rhaenrya targaryen #rhaneyra targaryen #hotd spoilers #house of the dragon spoilers #ask anon

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hellsbellschime · 1 year

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Hello, here to give you some context about the people attacking you: Lina is a person who is obsessed with Rhaegar x Lyanna, has been around the fandom for many years and is known to always start fights with every corner of the fandom, especially with people who don't think Rhaegar is a saint who did nothing wrong ever. Went as far to call Rhaegar a ephebophile instead of a p*dophile, as if that somehow makes it okay. Regarding her IRL opinions, she's very weird about Putin and issues regarding POC, which is often expressed through her opinions about fictional characters/races/families and has even expressed transphobic opinions. I've encountered her on twitter countless times; I'm neither pro-team Green or pro-team Black, yet she has been so awful and hateful that she's been called out numerous of times and most people know they should avoid her, both on twitter and tumblr. Brideoffires previously known as yendany has also been cancelled on tumblr before, I remember them from my old political tumblr days, they were called out as being anti black, racist, fetishiser of gay men and a weirdo overall. These people, along with the rest of "targnation" have been around the fandom for a long time, they will attack anyone they disagree with, including fellow Dany and Targaryen fans who don't "stan" Daenerys hard enough to their liking. If they don't like you, it means you're doing something right. I've always liked Daenerys, as a POC myself I've had issues with how racist her storyline is written, which has nothing to do with Daenerys, but the writer himself - and I got attacked for it and accused of being a "white bitch" which just puts me off the character and fandom and is extremely toxic and deranged. "Targnation" is known for being awful, attacking actors, being extremely racist and sexist and borderline transphobic, considering their treatment of Emma D'arcy when the HOTD casting was announced. This attack on you isn't because those people care about social justice, they've just branded you as a "Dany anti" and because they can't give a proper response to your metas and videos, they'd rather attack your personality and accuse of you things that aren't true, as they often do. All of this goes beyond fiction; war, racism, xenophobia, antisemitism is so much more important than "stan wars". It's not something you get to use as a "gotcha moment" because you disagree over fiction. It's absolutely disgusting. This fandom disappoints me every day. Anyway, keep being you, keep sharing your opinions, keep learning and growing. You're a gem in this fandom of awfulness, you're so well-spoken and smart and I hope you don't let these people get to you with their harassment and bullying because they've chased away a huge part of the fandom already. Sending love <3

Oh boy, well hello my fellow white bitch! And yeah, I don't know who this is nor do I really want to find out given what's been going on, but none of this is particularly shocking to hear. Obviously there are unhinged stans in every fandom, but it sucks when they make everything suck for everyone else. And thanks for the support but no one needs to worry about me, I survived the fucking Klaroline fandom so some kooks I've never heard of going nuclear on me is fairly old hat. It generally takes a lot for me to internalize this kind of fuckery and the only thing that actually bothers me is being misrepresented, and I feel like I made myself clear so at least people can form their opinions of me based on reality rather than the unhinged rantings of people who don't know me and who I don't know. Ultimately however people act is on me and not them, and stuff like this really is analogous to someone screaming "bitch" out of their car window as they drive by so it is not something I take personally, it is just weird because, due to the nature of social media, doing that can actually lead to some other people being like "wait what maybe they're right?"

#anti stan fuckery

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waitingforwinterwinds · 1 year

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A Clash of Kings - 48 DAENERYS IV (pages 628-639)

Dany has a bad time at the House of the Undying Ones.

Long and low, without towers or windows, it coiled like a stone serpent through a grove of black-barked trees whose inky blue leaves made the stuff of the sorcerers drink the Qartheen called shade of evening.

...do you think it's on purpose that the colouring of the trees basically screams anti-weirwood? "is the dress-" no, shush!

"Queen Daenerys must enter alone, or not at all." The warlock Pyat Pree stepped out from under the trees. Has he been there all along? Dany wondered.

well now I'm just imagining him hiding behind the tree trying to eavesdrop on their conversation so he can find a good dramatic entrance point.

Further on she came upon a feast of corpses. (...) In a throne above them sat a dead man with the head of a wolf.

Sounds like the Red Wedding.

I know this room, she thought. She remembered those great wooden beams and the carved animal faces that adorned them. And there outside the window, a lemon tree!

🍋=🥛

... Rheagar? "The man had her brother's hair-" babe your whole family has your brother's hair. (I think technically it's ethnically Valyrian hair?)

Could there be a secret door? A door I cannot see? Another torch went out. Another. The first door on the right, he said, always the first door on the right. The first door on the right... It came to her suddenly is the last door on the left!

Yay! she escaped! good logical thinking under pressure.

The show did not do this place justice, just btw.

"You have taken a wrong turning. Come I will lead you." Pyat Pree held out his hand. Dany hesitated. The was a door to her right, still closed... ... She walked away from him, to the door on the right. "No," Pyat screeched. "No, to me, come to me, to meeeeeee." His face crumbled inward, changing to something pale and wormlike.

Yeaahhhhhh! When in faerieland, trust the rules, trust your gut, trust nothing.

To her right, a set of wide wooden doors had been thrown open. They were fashioned of ebony and weirwood, the black and white grains swirling and twisting in strange interwoven patterns. They were beautiful, yet somehow terrifying.

House of Black and White vision time?

...oh no, the head honchos... being very not like the show?

Fake Undying king: Hail chief, we've been expecting you Fake Undying woman: we got all the loot for you, SSS grade gear, sweet kit~ Drogo: Seems sus, let me bite stuff first Secret door: ooohhhh, not a nat 20 on perception, my hide-and-seek win streak, noooo!

... I feel like I should probably be ashamed that my first alarm bell was "The breast she had left bare in the Qartheen fashion was as perfect as a breast could be." But I didn't pop alarm flags until "and magic weapons to arm you with."

I'm pretty sure I would have crumbled for the loot, I know this of myself.

A long stone table filled this room. Above it floated a human heart, swollen and blue with corruption, yet still alive.

Metaphorical reference to The Night King?

... no.

... morrows not yet made...

So there's a few things in these 'prophetic words' that I was thinking 'oh is that *previous event in the story*' but this line in particular makes me think these things she's being warned about are things that haven't yet occurred.

... mother of dragons, daughter of death... ...mother or dragons, slayer of lies... ...mother of dragons, bride of fire...

Ohhhh, that's interesting. The way these visions are grouped with these titles... Viserys, then whom I'm assuming is Aegon/Young Griff, and Rheagar being labelled Daughter of Death, literally linking the Targaryen house with death, two of them receiving death and one in the act of burning a city. Blue eyed king with red sword, I'm thinking Stannis, then a fake dragon, and a beast of shadow fire being placed under Slayer of Lies, we all know Stannis isn't really Azor Ahai, the fake dragon seems obvious, the beast of shadow fire is curious though, I'm thinking that's the one people think is the dragon escaping from Winterfell during the sack? Hmmm, I'm... not going to go with that as an answer just yet, given the theme of 'false' in this trio. Her silver by the river of stars... Drogo, that's a Drogo metaphor for sure. Middle one is curious, I'm not sure if I want to interpret this one as the Night King or an Other, or as someone who- ... I forgot about Euron for a minute there. He would make more sense in the context, I mean I think I recall there's a thing with him and Dany in the books that didn't make it to the show? And he's... yeah, creepy sonovabich. Third one, blue rose and ice wall? Jon, I'mma go with that's Jon, who's mother is associated with blue roses, and who himself 'bloomed' on the Wall. I mean it does kind of bias me that they had a thing in the show whether I shipped it or not, and this is the Bride section, mind you, the Bride of Fire title as a whole gives me the impression that her connection to fire supersedes her connection to the men.

But the 'Mother of Dragons' having both repetition and priority over the other titles, that's her unchanging title, that's her hat, her priority character trait.

You know... the description of the Undying molesting Dany has echoes of the first vision she saw, of the woman being used and violated and devoured. Not saying it is, just saying echoes.

*hefts steel chair to smack D&D around the head*

Look, I understand why they changed this scene for the show, giving Dany a girlboss moment when she turns the tables and burns Pyat alive, but I feel like it literally wasn't needed in the face of her cunning and logic in this chapter.

Except mental fortitude and wisdom isn't badass enough for some folks, and only deliberate violence is winning. bleh.

There is nothing wrong with Dany needing to be saved by Drogon here, she is still young and finding her footing and facing powers and methods of deception she's never faced before.

When Dany looked behind her, she saw thin tendrils of smoke forcing their way through cracks in the ancient stone walls of the Palace of Dust, and rising from between the black tiles of the roof.

You know what, it would actually be funny if this was the slain lie with the smoking tower and the shadow fire breathing beast. Even though it's not an actual tower and there's no beast. Metaphors~

#a clash of kings #a song of ice and fire #daenerys targeryan #a chapter a day reading #acok #asoiaf

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notenoughmuses · 1 year

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Can we talk about Dany and slavery real quick? So we all know how Jorah ended up meeting Dany was cuz he fled Ned Stark and justice for being a slaver (who ends up falling in love with and serving Daenerys who frees slaves and even takes a whore who looks like Dany cuz he cant have her) and we all know Dany is like anti-slavery.

She's empathic and caring. Yes.

But, imagine this: you and your brother are raised in various cities in essos for an undisclosed number of time (days weeks months...years...) for 8-9 years and for 90% of the life you can recall now your over the age of 5 when all the time of 5 and before you can recall is a house with a red door and lemon tree....

Pentos while forbidden is still practiced by thise who hold vast wealth and thus power. Like Illyrio Mopatis.

Lys, super high slave population. Also known for their pleasure houses (which I HC vis got into for a bit to make money but that's another story)

In Volantis, due to the relative proximity to Slaver's Bay, there is a thriving slave market. There are five slaves for every free man. Slaves are always tattooed on the face.

I mean we all know Qohor's city guard is comprised solely of Unsullied eunuch slave soldiers. However, much like in Pentos, slaves can be bought by powerful men who flout the laws.

Myr is a hub of trade in slaves

Tyrosh deals extensively in slaves and they go to get Wildlings from the wall. (Ooh Ygritte AU where she gets freed by Dany....)

Braavos is an exception among the Free Cities. They come from escaped slaves, the Braavosi do not permit slavery and they do not trade with Slaver's Bay.

It's said that Dany and Vis: From Braavos, they went to Myr, next to Tyrosh, on to Qohor, Volantis, and Lys, never staying long at one location. And they've also lived in Pentos for half a year under Illyrios care. Under her book wiki her culture is listed as Free Cities first, her born into culture, Dothraki the culture she married into and felt safe in and Ghascari the culture she is ruling as Queen of Meereen. Viserys also has the free cities as his culture, young enough to not fully grow up in and around Westerosi culture.

They were both born and raised around slavery. They were guests for a while under powerful and wealthy peoples homes. Slavery was normal in almost all of the places they grew up in, except Braavos. Now, do I because of that fact HC that maybe they spent for of those 8 or so years majority in Braavos in different areas? Maybe. That could help account for Dany being anti-slavery. But also think back to Jorah. Slavery is outlawed, it's not the norm in Westeros. Viserys was 7-8 when Dany was born. At that age kids have an idea of what's right and wrong and if slavery is outlawed and not present, surely he would have remarked at some point slavery was wrong. To Viserys's credit, good and bad, Dany has been taught by Viserys. History, lore, customs, language....there are to be sure cracks in that knowledge and even those cracks I'm sure Ser Darry helped fill for both Targaryen children in those 5 years.

So while I think it's partly just a trait that makes Dany anti slavery with being compassionate and empathic and wanting to bring justice to those who could never get it themselves and fight for it (which in a way resembles her own plight growing up under vis's abuse and both of the targs begging on the streets and fighting for a way home)

I also think it's how she was raised and what knowledge that came with it. Kind of how Viserys assumed and later Dany, they would marry and how he wished she'd come sooner so Rhaegar could have married her. Their parent-Aunt/Uncle were siblings so why wouldn't he and Dany marry? Similar concept. If you see something so much it becomes the new normal, it's just what happens. Slavery is that for Essos.

If any Danys want to chim in please do! I'd love to hear your perspective on it!

#ooc #late night rambles ive been sitting on for a week #i should be in bed. said i was going to bed two hours ago #its 1 in the morning lol

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pessimisticpigeonsworld · 6 months

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TG stans and Targaryen antis complaining about Aegon's dream getting added to HOTD is so fucking funny to me. Like it makes so many of their theories and metas about House Targaryen null and void.

But one thing that does take the enjoyment out of watching their tailspin is when they accuse GRRM or even the HOTD writers of adding it in after the fact to retcon things. This is blatantly wrong.

The Prince that was Promised prophecy is directly referenced in the dream. The propht is something that had been established by GRRM in ASOIAF. It's referenced multiple times, especially in relation to House Targaryen. It's the reason why Aerys and Rhaella were made to be married, Rhaegar talks about it in Daenerys' vision, and Maester Aemon talks about it. The only time it's not referenced in relation to the Targaryens is Melisandre and Stannis, which is a false reading of the prophecy.

The Targaryens have had dreams about apocalyptic events before, and the Prince that was Promised has massive textual significance to the house. Other houses don't talk about or even seem to know about the prophecy. Therefore, no it's not pulled out of thin air that the prophecy came to them as well as to the Red Priests, neither is it a very big leap in logic. Also, no, Aegon's dream was not made up by the HOTD writers, George was the one who brought it up to them.

So, no, Targ antis and TG stans, Aegon's dream is not something the HOTD writers or GRRM pulled out of their asses. Also the books aren't over yet, so it's not retconning anything if George writes it in (and he did), it's just revealing something he's going to go into in the books. Just because you're bitter about House Targaryen's importance and Rhaenyra's rightful claim doesn't mean you can go accusing the writers of being shitty without evidence. There's plenty of other instances of the HOTD writers being shitty that actually exist.

#anti team green #anti targaryen antis #house targaryen #the prince that was promised #aegon's dream #can't believe i just defended the hotd writers #grrm #rhaenyra targaryen

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writerlys · 4 years

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quick question for people who only write white characters: Why

#I just.......... truly do not understand this #I mean I do. it's literally the Racism #BUT STILL. it's exhausting to see over and over #sometimes I'll look at someone's blog and be like oh we seem like a good fit!#and then I go to their muses page and it's just. alabaster central ASDLKJFHSFK #there's nothing wrong with writing white characters. but when you ONLY write white characters it's very very obvious who you deem worthy #y'all treat writing characters of color as a chore or as something you HAVE to do bc you're forced to and I'm SO TIRED OF IT #even with group rps. I know the 'x muses of color for every white muse' rule is there to promote diversity but like #the fact that y'all literally have to be ORDERED to write characters of color AS IF IT'S A PUNISHMENT before you write more white ppl #really fucking irks me and it makes my skin crawl #if u consider yourself anti racist and still only write white characters I need u to take a good hard look at yourself #and seriously consider what stories and lives and voices you consider worthy of telling #and pls don't use the excuse of 'it's not from my culture so I can't write it!!!'.........#y'all r not witches and wizards and mafia bosses and daenerys targaryen. pls cut the bullshit.#you're willing to research high fantasy and crime plots and doctors and lawyers but aren't willing to do research about other cultures???#you're just lazy and prefer to stick with whities because of your internalized biases and honest to god as a woc it's Tiring.#AND ANOTHER THING!!!!#stop having One token character of color and then WHITEWASHING THE SHIT OUT OF THEM #I'm sorry but having one white passing poc named Sir Timotheiiee Alabaster McScotland does not make you 'woke'#I don't know how to tell you to care about poc and write characters of color with color #IMAGINE. HOW TIRED. I AM #ramblyssa strikes again

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finitefall · 1 year

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out of curiosity have you watched the youtubers hills alive dany vids ( I avoided them because she seems to be a dany anti given the title of the vids ) but is she one of the people you talk about when talking about dany antis since recently she made a vid saying that her crucifixion of the masters proves she is a bad queen

I just watched it since many people are talking about it. More nonsense, but I’m sure a lot of people are eating it up - including antis Dany who insisted for years that it made her a tyrant, or mad, and who will now say “have you watched this video? it’s proof that she’s a bad queen!” because they found someone who sounded smarter than them. I’m not gonna comment everything, only a few parts:

Killing people who have enslaved, abused, mutilated, and murdered countless people for their own profit is not something anyone will ever be inclined to argue against.

Funny, because that’s exactly what antis Dany have been doing for years.

Ultimately, regardless of who did what, these are all masters who engaged in human trafficking and all sorts of unimaginable violations of basic human rights.

Duh. So it’s wrong because...? Ah, yes, an “interesting” take on why it makes Dany a bad Queen: she didn’t know which masters were responsible for the 163 crucified children, so she shouldn’t have allowed the Meereenese to pick which ones would be killed. There was no investigation or trial. Please explain to me how she could have discovered the ones responsible for the 163 crucified children, how she could have been sure those were the ones guilty of that particular crime with everyone accusing each other to be spared? It wasn’t possible. Either she’s delusional about it, either she’s aware of it and is, in fact, saying that Dany shouldn’t have killed any of the masters.

Ironically, despite the fact that this was meant to be a harsh punishment to the slavers [...], it actually provided a lot of the more politically intelligent and manipulative masters of Meereen with an opportunity to strengthen themselves and get rid of potential rivals. [...] They would put forward their enemies and protect their allies. Or they would simply throw out the weakest of the bunch because there would be little consequences for betraying the people who aren’t truly powerful in their societal structure. So what that in mind, it is a near certainty that some if not most of the people who Dany killed were not only not responsible for what she was killing them for, but wound up on the literal cross because they were not powerful enough for their compatriots to bother protecting them, or because someone with more sway or political acumen wanted them gone.

That sounds like an interesting, logical argument. Except that Dany isn’t stupid and she knew she couldn’t discover who was responsible for the 163 crucified children. So she sent a message instead by asking the Meereenese to hand over 163 of their leaders and crucify them: you shouldn’t have done that, and this is what’s gonna happen to you if you touch innocents again. If she had picked herself who would be punished, she would be blamed too since she had no way of knowing which slavers were behind the crucifixion of the 163 children. If she had thought that it would be the ones responsible for it, the most powerful people in Meereen, the most dangerous who were chosing which ones would die and decided to punish the former ones instead, she would have been accused, again, of not having any proof.

So Dany was supposed to go to Meereen and tell them they were terrible people, but not do anything. That’s what she’s saying in this video.

She largely seems to see Meereen as a trial run to figure out how she is going to rule Westeros.

That person has literally zero understanding of Daenerys. She chose to fight slavery because she’s been a slave herself. She cares about those people. She’s not fighting slavery to figure out how she’s gonna rule the Seven Kingdoms: she’s fighting slavery because it’s a fight she believes in. It’s so important to her character, you can’t even talk about Daenerys Targaryen without talking about this.

If there were anyone among them who supported Daenerys or had some kind of ethical agreement with her desire to revolutionize the slave cities, they ironically were almost certainly among those that the Meereenese offered up to be killed.

That’s only a wild guess, with no proof to back it up. Does she truly believe any of those slavers wanted things to change? Of course they didn’t.

She then points out Dany’s previous mistakes, because apparently everyone is allowed to make mistakes and learn from them, except Dany. Once she made a mistake, they have the proof that she’s not a good ruler and will never be a good Queen. What’s interesting though in this video is that she points out the subtext in ASOIAF, how GRRM is writing a storyline with a message behind it. She’s doing the same thing here, avoiding the past mistakes of antis Dany. She doesn’t try to defend the slavers, she doesn’t try to excuse any of the masters, she doesn’t say Dany shouldn’t have done anything. Instead, she’s pointing out how Dany is a bad Queen because of how she tries to fight slavery, offering absolutely no opinion on what she could have done to succeed.

And that’s really the whole point of this video, in fact: Dany doesn’t offer a good justice and made enemies because of course slavers don’t want her to be in Meereen fighting slavery. There’s no good way to fight slavery, so she shouldn’t have been in Astapor, Yunkai and Meereen. If she’s gonna make mistakes, it’s best not to do anything. If she’s not gonna succeed, it’s not worth trying. Slavery is absolutely atrocious, she insists on this in her video and I do believe she is sincere (edit: after knowing more about her, she isn’t being sincere at all), but it’s not our business and it’s not Dany’s business. We can’t fight it, so we’re just gonna sit around and cry about it. It’s nor our fault, really. In fact, people like Dany trying to break the status quo are the ones in fault because they start huge fights and wars instead of coming up with a miraculous way to peacefully end slavery.

With those kind of videos, it’s always interesting to read the comments and here’s one:

All of this has me wondering about Faegon. He's a lot like Egg (King Aegon V) from the Dunk and Egg stories if you think about it. A prince who knows what it is to live like a commoner and have a hard life and who generally seems like he'd be an advocate for the commonfolk and perhaps not too brutal as well. He seems, by all accounts, someone who might be a good King yet he is likely not the real Aegon VI but something like a Blackfyre imposter. In contrast, Dany is unquestionably a Targaryen who even has dragons yet she fits the way Varys describes Tommon to Kevan "Tommen has been taught that kingship is his right." and is quite brutal. I think George might be saying "She is technically the rightful Queen but this imposter would actually make for a better ruler than her." a sort of play on the common trope of a rightful heir rising, regaining the old Kingdom and ruling justly. She won't rule justly, I reckon, but the imposter would have and therein lies the irony. My pet theory anyway.

This comment was liked by Hill’s Alive, and I had a feeling that was proven right when I looked to see if she had made a video about Young Griff. I didn’t watch it and have no intention to (there’s also so much bullshit I can take from one person), but her theory is that Young Griff, a character introduced in the fifth book, is actually the real Aegon (son of Rhaegar and Elia). I’m certain she explains very well how he will be a good King unlike Dany. She already didn’t have much credibility in this video about the 163 crucified masters (she tried though, and sounds much more convincing and intelligent than the “mad queen killed innocents slavers” antis, I’ll give her that), but she doesn’t have any credibility left at all with Young Griff.

#ASOIAF #Daenerys Targaryen #hillsalive criticism #answered

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