#its just the batfam appeals to me so much!!!

[aro-aizawa]

getting into reading dc crossover fics where batman is the parent of x is always so annoying because on one hand it’s so interesting to read and i always love it imagining bruce being the parent of a character and how their relationship would develop and how they’d interact. but on the other hand, i always without fail start to imagine how i’d write that particular au--

in other news i have written the start of two aus where bruce is their father they only just reconnected with

#shut up danni #that's danny fenton and marinette dupain-cheng btw #they both have such great potential to be batkids i swear #my danny fic has him and damien being twins whereas my marinette fic has her being damien's half sister #bc while i love the idea of marinette being fully related to damien and adoring him as her baby brother i can't picture her being born #in the league of shadows then getting out of it w/o harm to her #bc if she was discarded as an heir she'd just be killed and i don't see talia as being a loving parent so she'd let her be killed #so half sibling #also its v funny bc im SO unfamiliar w batman outside of like. the movies. #i haven't even watched any of the cartoons and i don't know if that appeals to me lol #i have no clue if batman even appeals to me outside of crossovers and all i know of batman lore is the things i've picked up over the years #let me tell you its v weird to be writing for a fandom im not v familiar w or hell even reading for it either #its just the batfam appeals to me so much!!!

[devine-fem]

Why do you ship damian and Jon? especially still as they are now in canon, I’m genuinely just asking…

This is a loaded question.

Firstly, my introduction to younger heroes was through Super Sons and I didn’t immediately ship them until I entered the fandom and had all their content clash together consistently in my head and it slowly made me realize the potential of the characters and what I was reading.

I’m more of a Damian Wayne enjoyer than anything in the batfam, he’s my favorite Batkid, then its Jason and Cass. I really enjoy his character and I also really relished in the potential Jon had with Damian and how he was a genuine friend.

I really do think that if done right then Damian and Jon being in some sort of relationship would not only be excellent representation but also, could fix a lot of troubling aspects of their character. Like their mantles and how their characters function in canon. Their relationship could be catalyst for them seeking a new mantle.

It’s more so built off of the mutual friendship they have for each other and how much they care about the other person.

A lot of people expect me to consider older Jon because he’s canon but no, I don’t like Jon’s age up for many, many reasons so I choose to ignore it.

Whoever chooses to get mad at me for it are hypocrites because you cannot honestly tell me there aren’t stuff about your favorite character that you don’t choose to ignore… every character in dc has done something problematic and if you didn’t ignore something, they wouldn’t be enjoyable.

People only want me to take in older Jon because they either hate the ship or weirdly enjoy Jon’s pseudo-relationship and feel threatened over Damijon even though it’s an entire fanon ship and can’t do anything to harm canon in the first place. You guys have the canon ship, why do you have to feel so threatened?

On Damian’s part, there’s flatline but I don’t personally feel threatened by his relationship/romance with her… she’s a fine love interest and I really enjoy her allegories of death, it’s interesting to think about and how that correlates with Damian’s grief with Alfred. There’s no reason for me to get so up and arms about Damian’s canon romances… it’s fandom… I think I would even like them a lot at some point when Nika gets some more content in the future. I also fear for her because she’s so new and has potential to become a character we grow to hate once other writers get their hands on her… (I have more thoughts on this but that’s all for now)

Jay… no… I’m sorry, there’s no appeal with him and Jon and with how it came about… I don’t find it likable.

Like I don’t actually want Damijon to be canon ever, really, it’d be a nightmare in the longrun with how these writers handle queer relationships.

And yes, people are always like “Damian and Jon had an age gap even before the age up-“ Dude, their ages were infamously inconsistent in comics that weren’t Super Sons, sometimes they had a 1-2 year age gap if you put them on a certain timeline in canon. Super Sons is what established the age gap, and even after Jon was aged up, till Taylor took it, they still had an inconsistent age gap. Jon’s age was inconsistent and Damian was also aged up but people tend to forget that.

Jon and Damian don’t have canon birthdays and didn’t know each other for that long before the age up. The age gap is probably much smaller. Even Taylor sometimes refers to it as “2-3 years” but he’s never consistent on any basis so…

I simply just think they’re 1-2 years apart in my head, or sometimes 3 as well. But I also, don’t consider them being in a healthy romantic relationship unless they are adults. No one should consider Jon and Damian actually being able to hold a relationship while they are young, it wouldn’t work. Any shipping I do while they are younger, is because that's where they peaked and it’ll be entirely innocent.

If they were to be in a relationship as they’re older, I seriously do think they can be incredibly happy together. I feel they are somewhat the perfect person for the other.

Thanks for the ask.

#jon kent #damian wayne #flatline #dc comics #ask #super sons #jonathan kent #asks

[susandsnell]

🔥 Batman comics in general

Send me a “ 🔥 “ for an unpopular opinion.

Oooh! I do think a lot of my saltier Batman comics opinions aren't exactly unpopular in nature (too much grimdark and never in the right direction, the misogyny, Killing Joke was a mistake, BruceBabs was a mistake, stop misusing Rogues), so I'll try to bring up some less-discussed ones! (Or at least ones I see discussed less, lol.)

Batfam is conceptually good, but nobody is handling it well. As I've previously expressed, Batfam content constantly oscillates between "Bruce is an abusive kidnapper of traumatized children he trains into child soldiers despite having the means to have them live in luxury, does not provide with love or positive reinforcement, and regularly pits against each other" and some of the most facile, cringey, early 2010s Tumblr conception of found-family to be seen, when I think it's more dramatically effective to find a happy medium between the two. A loving superhero found family with its share of dysfunction, hurts, and mistakes and appropriate nuance being brought to these conflicts is apparently too much to ask for (as is writers remembering Robin(s) and Batgirl literally exist as kid appeal characters).

Likewise, canon Harlivy is seldom handled well. As I said on Twitter the other day, "corporate Pride ate Harlivy". Harley Quinn and Poison Ivy's relationship, both back when it was subtextual and later on as it became Harley's main ship in iterations where she's able to get out of her abusive relationship with the Joker was groundbreaking and important. It was absolutely crucial to middle school me. But somewhere along the way, people lost the plot that they are indeed villainesses (whose queerness was meant to make them more endearing/sympathetic/relatable, but not change this status), and it fell prey to the respectability politics traps that plague just too many sapphic ships once they go canon. In order to be 'good representation', their villainy extends to 'haha RANDOM' irreverent chaos, and their personality gets boiled down to the shallow archetypes of 'chaotic and perky' Harley and 'snarky and sexy' Ivy. Their relationship to one another is 100% fluff, because God knows any nuance, tension, flaws, or friction between two master criminal characters with canonically tragic histories can't possibly be allowed. Because of the misogynistic expectations of Women Being Soft And Good coupled with the homophobic respectability politics of being as toothless, soft, and desexualized as possible to appear nonthreatening, sapphic ships are held to such unfair standards wherein the slightest conflict will be termed abusive and bad representation, and as such, they're written cardboard-flat, and unfortunately, this has befallen Harlivy in most canons where they're together. Even if it's realistically exploring things like recovery for either lady, because that's messy, and complicated, and nonlinear, and who wants that when you can have a memeable 'be gay do crimes'? Oh, but don't worry. Sometimes they will be sexually active - for the titillation of straight men. In-universe. (Don't get me started on the Harley Quinn show...) And poor Selina gets roped into third-wheeling/cheerleading the most boring possible version of them too often...

A lot of the most popular/famous titles are not the better ones. (Not you, Long Halloween, you're a delight and everyone loves you.) Everything that's there to say about The Killing Joke and The Dark Knight Returns has been said better by people smarter and better-versed in comics than me, but Batman: Hush is just contrivance upon contrivance, everyone and their mother is tired of the shit-billion stories about Joker fridging yet another person, and perhaps my most unpopular opinion is that Batman: Year One is entirely overrated. I like the noir atmosphere, the truly corrupted Gotham it gives us, and the sweet triumvirate between Gordon, Harvey, and Bruce, but seeing adaptations like The Batman (2022) and even The Dark Knight (yes, I'm saying something nice about Nolanverse for once lolol) take these elements and do so much more with them really highlights the weaknesses in this story. There's some really good origin/character work for Bruce becoming Batman and the psychology behind it, but past that, not a whole lot happens beyond a very thin and confusing police corruption plot, and everyone is just too damn mean for the sake of the grimdark setting. Bruce injures an already exploited child in the red-light district and sexually harasses the Gordons to throw them off his trail for being Batman, and the latter is played for laughs. Jim cheats on his pregnant wife with a coworker half his age and both women are portrayed as stereotypically in these roles as humanly possible. Selina Kyle is...there, to be angry and sexualized and not much else. It just feels like a lot of buildup without much payoff.

Lastly, and jumping off the above, I'm taking away the Gordon family from writers until they've learned to play nicely with them. I don't know what it is about Jim Gordon that makes writers - men in particular - work through justifying their weird issues about women, but my God, the poor man has been character assassinated to hell and back. (Everyone has in comics, but it's always in the same way with Gordon that properly grosses me out.) If he's not cheating on his housewife with a much younger coworker he's presented as oh-so-noble for not outright workplace harassing, he's neglectful, abusive, or otherwise aggressive to his loved ones in ways that are almost always justified or excused narratively because he's 'dealing with a lot' or xyz past trauma. He's frequently made into a mouthpiece for misogyny, calling women "bitches" in the Arkham series and making other such delightful comments, fetishizing Harlivy (in the Harley Quinn show!), or putting down Barbara's capabilities. If he's written to be struggling with addiction, it's always played as a joke. And for Barbara's part, since The Killing Joke, she's always such a favoured writers' punching bag/doll to put in uncomfortable relationships, often having her talents, skills and intelligence undermined in favour of portraying her as a sex-crazed, overemotional disaster who's in it for the thrills until she is narratively punished in some gendered way. I don't get it! I'm all for what makes characters tick or challenging them or giving them flaws or new horrific situations to work through, but why is it always the same tired, offensive hows and wherefores for the Gordon family? Let them rest!

#abuse mention cw #batman #jim gordon #bat-tag

[gothamhorrorzine]

Why isn't this zine being printed with full merch? Why won't there be a physical copy?

I've seen this question come up a lot in the interest check, so I thought I would provide an explanation.

No, this zine will not be available as a physical book or with any 'bulky' merch (i.e. charms, enamel pins, washi tape, etc). The book itself will be digital and there will most likely be an option to receive flat merch. Things that qualify as flat merch include: prints, stickers, sticker sheets, bookmarks, and cards. Why? Mostly for my own sanity. Physical production is a DAUNTING task that lasts multiple months and takes lots of time and effort. Getting the zine itself from the point of being a bunch of art and stories to an actual printable book with all the appropriate print-ready requirements is a month-long task itself and that's not counting all the changes that need to be made while in production. That also doesn't account for the fact that the same process often goes to each piece of merch. That's on top of coordinating the more complex merch pieces, there are hours of contact with manufacturers and artists. Digital merch requires no packing.

So why open this zine just to flat merch?

Flat merch is super quick both to produce and pack.

For example, with the full physical zine I have in production right now, the Any Which Way: a Batfam AU zine, I've had the flat merch completed and ready to send since June 10th. It took me approximately two weeks to finalise, order, and pack all the prints, bookmarks, and stickers for that zine.

Adding the bulky merch just... makes the task take so much longer. As a comparison, the AU zine had all its merch ordered on the same day - both flat merch and bulky merch. The flat merch has been waiting for almost a month now. The bulky merch is probably still two or three weeks away from being completed. This means the production process of these pieces will most likely take three months.

So yeah, I'm not sure how many people truly realise how much work producing charms, enamels pins, standees, etc is it's just... a lot. Honestly, I'm not sure people truly realise how much work running a zine is in general.

So, I want to avoid burnout while also giving myself the opportunity to explore more niche topics. Digital zines are great for that! They allow us mods to be a little looser, a little wilder, and do things that don't appeal to the widest audience possible. Plus, it means I'm not dying, which is a good thing all around because I know that people love my zines and want me to do more. Zines are my passion projects. I really and truly love them and the collaboration they foster. I think they are a wonderful way to raise money for charity and unite people from different corners of the fandom, but it's very possible to get burnout on them. So I'm trying to strike a balance between the amount of work I physically can take on and the number of projects I'd love to bring into creation.

~ Mod Kay

#mod kay #gotham horror zine #faqs #in addition to what I said above #but please do not send me messages begging for me to make this zine physical #i know that this comes from a place of enthusiasm #but the bare truth of it is #that this zine will be digital #or nothing at all #I'm trying not to burn myself out on zines #i love them but they are very hard #i am but one little creature

[dundunny]

Gotham Knights

I’m still finishing up Batgirl’s story, but I beat Gotham Knights. I inevitably compare it to the Arkham series, especially considering it’s the same studio that did Arkham Origins, but really it should be its own standalone.

Let me start off by saying it’s not a bad game. The battle system is much smoother than Arkham’s, and there’s quite a bit of variety between the characters, whether it’s Batgirl’s devastating, hard-hitting blows, Red Hood’s instant-kill headshots, Robin’s ability to sneak and take down an area group of enemies before the battle even starts, or Nightwing’s flowing acrobatics. Everyone is well-rounded and I never felt that any character was the weak, useless one. It just depends on your playing style.

I’ve stated before my love is in the environments, and I like Gotham here. The map is on the borderline of being too big, but the developers managed to keep each neighborhood unique with enough landmarks that you’re usually pretty good on mentally figuring out your location. The area around Wayne Industries vs. Robinson Park vs. the industrial area around the Cauldron allows me to subconsciously tell where I am and the general direction of where I have to go. It’s equally fun to climb and jump over the rooftops as it is to drive through the streets with the motorcycle.

The story is solid and pays good homage to the Court of Owls introduction in the comics, although there are some flaws. Like, we’re arresting Kane? For what? We’ve already established the Court gets whomever they want out on appeal. And Judge Moreno may be willing to sign the warrant, but that doesn’t mean she’ll be the presiding judge for the trial. So that whole section of the plot was silly. However other than that, it’s great to see the team come together to try and figure out Batman’s last case. The maze scene in particular is quite poignant. It really portrays Dick and Tim’s insecurities well, and Jason’s fears of being a monster, and I nearly cried with Barbara when I played Montoya’s call to HQ that Gordon got shot.

And it’s nice to see the Batfam act like human beings to each other for once. Batman’s video recordings where he describes his inner feelings, fears, and joys is something you rarely see in the comics nowadays. (Major shout out to Batman’s VA Michael Antanakos. He’s not Conroy, but his crooning voice was very pleasant to hear.) Jason is in therapy and taking steps to move forward. Tim adores his siblings and likes hanging out with them. Barbara and Dick, although broken up, maintain a strong relationship. Particularly post game, if you just sit in the Belfry and listen to the conversations, you can tell they’re moving forward.

However I need to address the biggest problem: There aren’t enough villains, and to compensate for that the developers made the game repetitious. This game has Mr. Freeze, Clayface, Harley Quinn, and Talia al-Ghul, and you fight the first two twice. Let’s compare that to Arkham Knight, where you fight Azrael, Harley Quinn, Penguin, Deathstroke, Firefly, Deacon Blackfire, Hush, Professor Pyg, Two Face, Nyssa al-Ghul, Mad Hatter, Killer Croc, and Black Mask. And you also had very involved plots with the Riddler, Man-Bat, and Mr. Freeze. You’re so busy juggling all these enemies and subplots that there isn’t any reason to fight regular criminals out on the street. Not only does Gotham Knights require you to fight these random criminals over and over, 90% of the sidequests are basically grind quests. Oh what does Montoya need? For me to break up a criminal deal at the same parking lot I’ve broken up six criminal deals in the past? All right, time to make it a seventh. That’s not interesting. You know what is interesting? Boarding a blimp-prison after hearing Killer Croc got out, only to discover they’re hanging prisoners in cages on the ceiling. Or duking it out with the Mad Hatter in this crazy book wonderland. Or the visceral horror and feeling physically sick when you walk in on Professor Pyg and discovering what he was doing to all those people.

DLC was super lame too. Literally it’s just the same six rooms repeated for twenty-five levels with the same enemies until you get to the bottom and meet Starro. I was excited to fight him, but really it’s just fighting massive group of regular enemies, whom you’ve already beaten just to get here, as you escort Starro to prison. That example I gave in the previous paragraph about the blimp-prison? That was Arkham Knight DLC. Yeah, they definitely could’ve done better.

Besides that, I think one of the best parts of the Arkham series was overhearing conversations from the criminals in the streets. They were so funny and I would stop what I was doing just to listen to completion. Gotham Knights had potential considering this was the first game with normal civilians wandering around, but everything is just one-line quips. They need to get those writers from Arkham back. They definitely worked on Origins, so what happened?

With all my complaints I did enjoy it; after all I played it four times just to see all the cutscenes with each character. The main story is relatively short, I’d give it maybe ten hours, and including sidequests maybe fifteen to twenty. So if you’d like to have a pleasant weekend or two, I’d say try it. And honestly it’s worth it for this scene:

One question though: Was that lapdog alive, or was she petting a taxidermy?

#gotham knights #batman #nightwing #red hood #robin #batgirl

[tarantula-hawk-wasp]

Hello, anon here.

I'm just !!! so happy over this AU alright. its a damn good AU. There's just something so nice about Shiro having people fret over him because dude is surronded by teenagers, as the Only Adult he kinda has to put their needs above his own for good reason and not. yknow. freak them out too much (pidge literally heard him getting tortured but this mf wasn't in a cryo pod at the end of the episode, 100% believe it's because he said it wasn't that bad to pidge to try and downplay what happened) so having others freak out for him? 10/10.

Anything you do with this AU will be great, you're a fantastic writer so even if it sits in the mind space its a treat to behold

Hi Anon, i took a while to answer this bc it ended up pushing me over the brink to writing a fic about the invasion of the castle of lions in s1

Yes absolutely that is part of the appeal of the batfam au is that he's 25! that's still young! You're still your parent's child at that age! someone needs to worry about the man! thank you, you really have rekindled my excitement for working on that fic.

#answered asks #anonymous

[stxleslyds]

You always seem down on the idea of the Batfam. I mean, it is hard to take seriously when writers make Bruce hostile or downright abusive towards his kids, or when Batfam members never interact. But do you think the concept itself is good, and it's just been the victim of bad writing? Or do you think the Batfam is a bad idea that can never work?

Hi there Anon! Thank you for the ask!

Hmm, this is a difficult question. Maybe I can answer this better if I do it in parts because the concept of “Batfamily” is used in different ways currently. A way to separate them can be, DC’s Batfamily, Fandom’s Batfamily and Fandom’s Batfamily lore being introduced in comics’ canon.

DC’s Batfamily:

My rejection of this version of Batfamily comes from all angles, it is not a good concept within comics lore anymore, it’s badly written and used to hide and move on from truly horrendous actions done by Bruce towards the rest of the family, and DC uses the concept of “Batfamily” that fandom has become so attached to, so they can profit off of it without writing anything of real essence with it.

Why did I say that the Batfamily isn’t a good concept anymore? Well, because the Batfamily that I first came across in comics included, Bruce, Dick, Alfred, Barbara, Tim and Cassandra. It was rather small and their books interconnected and had pretty solid relationships with one another. Dick and Tim got along and spent time together, Barbara mentored Cass so she could become Batgirl and so on and so forth. The family was smaller and more connected. But they still had problems and bad habits then. So, I liked them as a group of people that worked together and the name they received was “Batfamily” as a way for DC to profit from it.

Right now, the Batfamily is huge, I don’t know if you have seen those splash pages with all the members of it for Rebirth and Infinite Frontier, but those promotional pages were crazy big, characters like Harley and Clownhunter are now considered part of the “Batfamily” and all that. Then there is the kind of characters like Cass, Steph and Kate who are all connected to Batman but that haven’t been appearing in books for very long, so putting them on that page really feels like DC is trying to prove that their “Batfamily” actually has women on it, but it’s just for show.

And then there is Dick, Jason, Tim and Damian, the most recognizable faces of the Batfamily aside from Bruce and Alfred (but Alfred is dead now so he doesn’t really count), all of them have had issues with Bruce or are indifferent to the existence of one another. Yes, Tom Taylor has included Tim in Dick’s book but here is the thing, it feels like he put him there just to make fans shut up about the lack of content with both of them acting as they used to do. But its false and lazy, Taylor just brought Tim to the book but we don’t get to see Tim and Dick interact in ways that can explain why they drifted off, it kinda seems like all those years where Dick and Tim were pulled apart never happened to DC and that makes me think “cash grab”. I would have loved to see them interact again if it meant that we would have some solid story for them to develop their relationship once more.

At the end of Rebirth, Damian was pissed off at Bruce and they had a fight and Damian left the manor completely. Bruce beat up Jason, then gave him a hug but still told him that he was banned from Gotham and all that abuse and manipulation was swept under the rug when DC came out with Urban Legends: Cheer, all they did with that story is lie and made-up stories about Jason wanting Bruce to go on a killing spree so Gotham can finally be the home to his beloved family (lies, lies, lies).

On top of all that we have the neglect, abuse and manipulation that Bruce had going on with Dick, ever since Bruce manipulated Dick into joining Spyral his actions haven’t faced any consequences (the family still believes that Dick was the one who lied about dying). And as recently as the end of Rebirth, Dick suffered from a head injury that left him amnesiac and Bruce absolutely didn’t care enough to look after him when he was so vulnerable and alone. DC had the audacity of having Bruce say that he was looking after Dick while Dick went from one villain manipulating and hurting him to another, and if we look at Batman’s run, we can see that he spent some of that time in a weird pit or playing catch the pussy with Selina in a tropical island.

So, taking all those things into account, I honestly believe that the Batfamily is a concept that absolutely does not belong in comics. If it were to be taken seriously then DC should come up with (organic, not forced) stories that make these characters connect once again, but they have to be careful, just because they can connect it doesn’t mean that everyone gets along and they have group chats and eat dinner together of Fridays, that would be a blatant lie and just too out there for their kind of dynamic, so, they should take things slow, start re-building what once was an make it better (if they want to make it work and feel like less of a cash grab).

I heard that there is a book with Cass and Steph being mentored as Batgirls by Barbara coming out in December, that to me is a good thing, what was done in Robin #5 was awful, Jason didn’t have or want to be there, Tim, what the hell was Tim doing there? The only ones that have gotten along with Damian and have had a solid relationship with him were Dick and Steph. Dick had a very nice moment with Damian in that issue, but Steph didn’t, they preferred to have Jason wanting to hug Damian instead (what the actual hell was that?).

Fandom’s Batfamily:

Fandom is a place where people can take any concept from anywhere and transform it into whatever they please. This fandom is just like any other in that matter, but I have noticed that sometimes the Batfamily Fandom tends to blur the lines between what’s fanon and canon. Their lore is so deep and established among people that they sometimes (willingly or not) make new readers or other people believe that how things and perceived in fandom is how things actually are in comics, and that is a huge problem.

Things like “Dick sent Jason to Arkham when the Joker was just a cell away”, “Jason has pit madness and when he gets mad his eyes turn glowy green”, “Dick was a horrendous brother to Jason before Jason died”, “Jason would be good friends with Tim and Cass”, “Jason is the only one that sees the world differently from Bruce and the other robins because he is the only one that comes from a life with no luxury” and so on and on and on…

All of those things are sometimes treated as the absolute truth by fandom and no matter how many times people have debunked and explained that those things aren’t part of comics’ canon because they are simply not true, fandom stills treats those things as the basis of their Batfamily lore.

That lore would be actually fascinating if people didn’t lose sight so easily of the fact that at the end of the day none of that lore can be applied to comics’ canon.

When you enter this fandom things can be extremely confusing and the way some of the characters are characterized are completely different to their canon characterizations, I knew that the Dick fandom was writing about was not real, but I had no idea that Tim being a coffee addict that hasn’t slept in five months and is an absolute genius in everything and anything that he does was completely out of character for him, I just thought that was true to his character in comics too. Something like that happened to me when I took a peek at Jason’s side of fandom, by that time I had read Red Hood/Arsenal, UtRH and New 52 RHatO (yeah in that order, Red Hood/Arsenal wasn’t finished yet though), with the already conflicting characterizations of those books, the first look that I had at fandom’s Jason confused me even more. After considering all those I decided that the Jason that I wanted to see and actually looked appealing to me was UtRH Jason.

Not all people in fandom read comics and that is ABSOLUTELY VALID, I have zero problems with people not liking the comic characterizations of the “Batfamily” characters, but that in itself also creates a rift between fans themselves.

Fandom’s Batfamily lore being introduced in comics’ canon:

This is obviously the intersection of the other two points and this is the biggest problem that I have with the Batfamily concept. The fandom lore has been leaking into comic’s canon for a while now but right now we are kinda drowning in it. Decisions that have been made recently in DC like, Jason giving up his guns, the group chats in Nightwing issues, the family dinners that were hinted at in Cheer #6, and Bruce having had at the ready a Red Hood suit for Jason with a Batman logo in its chest, have been proof enough that DC is planning on skipping any kind of solid writing for these characters to actually get along. We are never going to see these people sit down and talk about their differences and respect each other’s work ethics.

We are never going to get stories of actual essence that prove that these characters understand and care for each other, we are just going to be told that “all is good” and now everyone loves one another and they will build from there.

That is a problem for me.

-

And it also takes away duality from Gotham’s vigilantes, I know I say this too much but it’s the truth, putting all these characters under the ruling of Batman makes them all bland. Jason shouldn’t be part of any sort of group that involves Bruce! My god, I don’t want to see them interact anymore! Bruce has been absolute trash to Jason ever since he came back from the dead and I am tired of DC trying to make them be on good terms!

Jason and Bruce not getting along can co-exist with the fact that Jason isn’t a villain to Batman’s legendary hero. Jason is his own character, with his own morals and he doesn’t need a bat symbol on his chest or book logo to be relevant. Same with Dick, Tim and Barbara, let them be characters that can stand on their own because they have already done that!

Barbara as Oracle worked WITH Batman if she wanted, she had her own logo and had passed on the mantle of Batgirl because he had grown out of it.

Dick is Nightwing and has become an even better hero than Batman could even aspire to become, he has contacts with everyone in the DC universe, has led countless teams, he doesn’t NEED a batman logo on his book or to be constantly dragged back to him just to make the Bat more compelling.

Jason, my sweet Jason, he had his own logo! It was gorgeous and then Lobdell had the audacity to stamp a Batman logo in the middle of the book name and in Jason’s chest! Have we gone absolutely mad? Why did they do that? Lobdell’s constant back and forth with Jason and his feelings for Bruce, he respects him and he doesn’t, he kills and he doesn’t… each issue felt like a new take on the character! It was crazy!

And that has happened with everyone in the “family”. I will end this by saying that Bruce/Batman being at the centre of this “Batfamily” dynamic is the most laughable thing in the DC Universe. Batman isn’t family to any of the people that they constantly surround him with, he is a piece of shit.

Anyway Anon, I hope this answer doesn’t ruin your day and that you understand that even though I really don’t like the “Batfamily” concept, you and everyone else are allowed and encouraged to think differently!

Hope you have a marvellous day Anon!

#jason todd #red hood #dick grayson #nightwing #tim drake #damian wayne #batfamily #batfam #dc comics #asksss

[autisticcassandracain]

I have many thoughts on the weird phenomena in the DC fandom and the Batfam fandom specifically where probably the majority of people just straight up. haven’t interacted with the source material. and almost all of those thoughts can be summarized as ‘lmao that’s weird and mildly concerning’.

and because I’m annoying I will list them all here right now <3

1. To preface this post, I mean, obviously, comics are inaccessible as all hell, both in the disability kind of way and the ‘you need to understand the concept of hypertime to fully comprehend the DC timeline’ kind of way. Because of this, even if you don’t have a disability that prevents you from reading comics, I don’t think it’s unreasonable to look at the amount of comics you need to read to have even a base understanding of a character and go ‘no thanks <3′ and just enjoy fanart and fanfic in a vacuum. Ultimately, this is fandom, this is supposed to be fun, it doesn’t really matter.

2. That said, it’s VERY weird to me that the majority of this fandom just straight up hasn’t interacted with the source material, and moreover, that it’s considered rude to tell people that they should do so. It’s especially weird considering the amount of fanon-only fans I’ve seen who straight up have a superiority complex over canon. The idea that it’s gatekeeping to tell fans of something to actually interact with canon is just. so weird, and a fundamental misunderstanding of what ‘gatekeeping’ actually entails. 

3. But honestly I’m less interested in discussing the ways in which canon and fanon fans should interact with each other (personally, I think it would be helpful to create separate tags of some kind, but that’d require quite a big overhaul of the current fandom state) than in figuring out how this actually happened in the first place. On the one hand, it’s obvious; long-running superhero comics the way DC writes them have made themselves so thoroughly inaccessible that most people are simply too daunted to even try. Most media has a cohesive beginning and end (or at least, a planned end somewhere). Comics just... don’t.

But I do think it says something that, even among people who are clearly interested in the characters (since they have, you know, entire blogs about them), the effort to get into comics just seems to be too much to even bother. This really doesn’t bode well for the future of DC Comics. Obviously, I am no expert on anything at all ever, but I’d personally be surprised if DC survives beyond the few decades, at least in its current form/without a big overhaul.

4. But on the other hand, I don’t think the confusing state of DC Comics is the only thing to blame here. Fandom has a well-known problem with reducing any character down to archetypes to more easily ship and write fic/make content with. This problem is particularly prominent in fanfic, which, if you read enough of it, you’ll eventually start seeing not just the same tropes and trends, but essentially the same fics over and over again. And not just within the same fandom; everywhere, or every large fandom, at least. 

Fanon Batfam is entirely built on a bunch of those tropes; insecure/depressed sadboy Tim, team mom with optional hidden trauma/emotional problems Dick, bad boy with a heart of gold + sadboy combo Jason, abused sadboy Damian/angry easily-villified-for-fic-reasons monster Damian, good dad Bruce for found family fic and bad dad Bruce for angst fic, etc. This all culminates in a found family dynamic that’s generic and malleable to whatever fic the writer wants to write.

(This isn’t getting into the ship fic, which I avoid like the plague because the vast majority of it is incest, but I’d bet real actual money that the tropes in those fics fall under what is often preferred by the Migratory Slash Fandom.)

By having a decent excuse not to get into canon (the inaccessibility of comics) and a, by now, well-established fanon fandom, many fans feel free to use the batfam fandom as essentially an excuse to write whatever fic with reduced archetypes and tropes they personally feel the itch to write, without having to bother with even consuming a canon. This is compounded by the fact that canon itself is often contradictory and frankly bad, meaning that whatever interpretation of a character you want/need to go for your fic is at least theoretically backed up by canon (for example, you can just as easily cast Bruce as an abusive shithole dad who his kids need to get away from as a loving father figure who cares deeply for his children), which you can always use as a defense if people question your characterization.

5. This focus on fandom trends and tropes over actual creativity or care for the characters is also visible in the way bigotry manifests in this fandom; namely, in literally the exact way you’d expect. The female characters and characters of colour are shuffled to the side, non-existent, vilified, and/or reduced to harmful stereotypes. 

Barbara is probably the one I saw the most often in fanfic, but usually just as ‘Dick’s girlfriend’, and even then, she was often vilified for Dick angst (especially in fics about examining Dick’s trauma from his canon sexual assault; Kori also often gets the short end of the stick in those). After that, probably Stephanie, who fanon fans don’t really seem to know what to do with, so she’s basically just there as comic relief waffle girl, most of the time, though sometimes she can be used to either further Tim angst or further vilify Tim, whatever the fic calls for. Cass has gotten included more in batfam fics as of late, likely in response to critiques of fandom racism for leaving her out, but again, it’s clear people don’t actually know what to do with her. She’s often reduced to a racist stereotype of a quite, stoic therapist for whatever guy du jour needs it. That, or she’s in Hong Kong and just not there. Duke especially gets left in the dust in fandom, usually just being non-existent, but when he’s there, he’s almost always nothing more than the straight man for the actual fun characters to play off of. Talia probably has it the worst, though, and almost universally gets vilified by fanon stans in order to write sadboy Damian.

All of this is extremely predictable behaviour and falls entirely in line with general fandom misogyny and racism; ignoring or vilifying women and characters of colour, or using them as very minor characters at best. The only two characters of colour who aren’t regularly left out of fic are Dick and Damian, who are both also conveniently the two characters most often drawn and written in a whitewashed manner. In addition, there’s a real trend of demonizing Damian in fanon fics where he isn’t written as an abused sadboy, which I’d argue is in no small part due to fandom racism, considering Damian’s behaviour is in no way as bad as Jason’s, who doesn’t get anywhere close to the same demonization and gets woobiefied instead. I also find it convenient that Damian is probably the batboy who receives the most vilification in fic, when he’s the most obviously non-white of the batboys they’re willing to acknowledge.

Fandom often cries for more diversity in canon, only to ignore the diversity already there and focus on the same generic white guys. The batfam fandom is a brilliant example of this.

Which is not to say that fandom racism and misogyny isn’t present in the canon parts of the fandom (and canon itself); it absolutely 100% is. But I’ve found that canon fans are also more likely to like and care about at least one of the characters I’ve listed as ignored/vilified, and are willing to create and consume content for them, whereas fanon fans... aren’t, really. I’ve never seen a fan of fanon Cass the way I’ve seen fans of fanon Dick, for example. Obviously, this could just be by coincidence, or I’ve just surrounded myself with people like that, but it’s been a trend I noticed. Racism and misogyny is present in every part of this fandom and should be addressed as such, but I feel like it manifests the most blatantly in the fanon parts of this fandom. 

(I’d also recommend the articles Migratory Slash Fandom’s Focus and Beige Blank Slates, which expand more on the type of fandom racism I think is especially prominent in the batfam fandom, as well as literally every article in the What Fandom Racism Looks Like series.)

6. All this leads me to conclude that the majority of fanon fans don’t actually like the characters all that much; they’re convenient excuses for them to participate in fandom. Which I also think is, in no small part, a reason why so many of them react so negatively to being told to pick up a comic; they came to this fandom specifically to consume it as a fandom, because they wanted the fandom experience without having to consume a canon. 

This is not a phenomena unique to the batfam fandom (again, see the Migratory Slash Fandom), but it does fascinate me. While fandom is often said to be an experience focusing on transformative art, I think it’s also safe to say that, especially as fandom has become more mainstream, an increasing amount of people are looking to it less as a way to engage with their favourite pieces of media, and more as a type of media in and of itself. I think the reasons for this are similar to the reasons mass media entertainment like the MCU are so popular; you gain a lot of enjoyment out of it with very little risk involved. 

By consuming the same fics of the same characters (or the same archetypes) over and over again, you are rarely at risk of being challenged or even disappointed. It’s often very clear right from the start whether or not a fic will appeal to you, and if it isn’t, it’s easy to just look for another one. It requires less emotional investment than most other types of media, even ‘popcorn media’ like the MCU - or, yes, DC Comics. It’s safe, it’s enjoyable, it’s comforting, like McDonalds, but just like McDonalds, it’s ultimately bland and unsubstantial. 

7, TL;DR. Ultimately, I don’t think it’s like, wrong to enjoy the fanon version of the batfam without wanting to engage with canon, and I certainly don’t think it’s okay to harrass people over it. But I do think it’s in large part based on a desire to interact with fandom rather than other pieces of media because people are scared of being let down by those pieces of media (or worse, just uninterested in actually thinking), which is mildly concerning. 

#long post #my posts #infodumping #btw i say this as someone who also has trouble consuming much more than popcorn media/fanfic due to emotional exhaustion #but it's not a healthy habit and it's something people can and should try to break out of #also obviously this isn't about EVERY fanon fan specifically so if this doesn't apply to you specifically great then move on

[htmlerror]

☕ + wfa

i do not like wfa with ham, i do not like it, sam i am.

I have a lot of problems with Wayne Family Adventures. The idea for it is solid enough, but the execution is. bad. I've put my thoughts below the cut because this got long, so I hope you don't mind me going in depth on my feelings.

Duke Thomas as a POV character - I'm plagerizing heavily from my convo with @phamtai about this. Def check them out for more info and better insights than mine into the character. Duke is extremely well established in canon despite only having been around for a decade or so. Remarkably, it's taken until WFA to butcher his character. Duke in this series is too polite. He's too clueless. He's been presented as the Relatable Kid archetype that he doesn't fit. In canon, Duke has never not been self-assured. He's a relatable character, yes, but not because he doesn't know what's going on. He has experience as a hero long before the batfam became involved. And since then, he's bonded with them. WFA doesn't show his connection with Cass, his dynamic with Bruce or Jason, and completely ignores his conflicts with the family. In a supposedly family-focused product, those are damn near cardinal sins. He may as well be a totally new character. Duke has been watered down so much for the sake of this series. WFA could be a vessel to explore so many things about him that we don't see a lot of on the regular page. We could see a dive into the parallels between him and Bruce, the full psychological impact of losing his parents, epecially in contrast to Jason, how his world view and morals differ from Batman's, the daily consequences of his powers, or the fallout of his mourning independently for the friends he's lost. But those would be interesting angles WFA doesn't seem eager to explore. If you can't imagine a version Duke punching a cop just because they're a fucking cop, you're doing it wrong. Another issue is, unfortunately, Duke's role as the only Black batman member. I shouldn't need to explain why it's problematic to be showing his as constantly less knowledgeable and presumably skilled as the other bats. (No, it doesn't matter that Dick and Damian are drawn with dark skin. Dick has been written as a white man for nearly his entire existence. The person who retconned that is notoriously racist and has spent years defending her inclusion of sexual assault in her writing. I have no issue with Dick being Romani, but just changing the color of his skin is not the way to do it.) DC has recently had a push towards inclusion, on the page an behind the scenes. This is good, of course. Though if they really are committed to representation and inclusion, it needs to be an effort seen across the board. Faux pas like this paint a pretty obvious picture.

The Webtoon format is shit - Webtoon is a great platform for indie writers and artists. It's not my style of content, but I get the appeal. IMO, it's ridiculous to accept a professional comic publisher shitting out 12 page fluff pieces. Yes, the weekly comic format has been phased out for a reason. Yes, halving the workload is a possible way around that restriction. But there just isn't a good enough reason to do it. It's a pretty obvious ploy to seem "hip" and "get in with kids these days." It's lazy and frankly kind of embarrassing. For anyone who doesn't know, a standard comic book is usually 24-28 pages. This isn't an arbitrary number, it's part of the format for the art form. That length allows for necessary plot developments in a serial story line while also giving the characters, themes, and artwork time to breathe. Furthermore, it's what most comic readers have come to expect over the decades. Halving that wouldn't necessarily be a problem, there are plenty of examples of well made shorts out there, but coupling that WFA's love affair with single panels and splash pages is a major issue. Say you make a 12 page comic with 4-6 panels per page. You have 48-72 panels to work with. You can sit a compelling story into that, with or without heavy dialogue. But bring that down to 12-24 panels, and you have one of two options: either 1) ultra-compress your narrative or 2) reduce the plot to compensate. Ignoring the formatting choices, WFA is a convenient reason for DC to keep the worst of the status quo in the bat titles. There's no need to acknowledge criticism of Bruce's treatment of his family when they can simply point and say "Jason's throat hasn't been sliced open here! And look, Damian hasn't been left with the crushing guilt of his grandfather's death! We even let Tim exist as his own character!" WFA doesn't change anything, it shows that DC is aware of its problems but would rather outsource them than put in the work to fix it. There's a special kind of rejected feeling that comes with being told "I hear you, I just don't care.

Fandom isn't bad, but - Everyone is familiar with the incorrect quotes format by now. Sometimes they're funny, most of the time they tend to over-saturate. WFA is like if a incorrect batfam quotes blog was a comic. It's a steady supply of one-liners and references, sure, but it lacks any real substance. If that's what you like, I can't fault you for it, but it's not going to be everyone's cup of tea. The way the batfandom has piled onto the "this is the best thing ever" bandwagon is concerning to me. There has been good batfam content in canon, you just need to know where to look for it. The lack of critical analysis of the project and dismissal of critiques is always an alarming pattern, but the way WFA has come to be the odd face of the fandom is just bizarre. It's everywhere, as you know if you've ever tried avoiding it. Thinking about WFA being the default interpretation of these characters makes me nervous. They lack the depth their canon counterparts. I don't care if you enjoy WFA, I do understand the appeal of it, but for the love of the gods, take it down from it's pedestal.

WFA is... fine. It's yet to commit any sins too egregious, but, like all DC properties, it's a ticking timebomb. I won't be surprised when it goes off, and I can't say I'll be sad to see it go. Ao3 has better content, anyway

#asks #anon #wfa #wayne family adventures #batman #batfam #duke thomas #long post

[whetstonefires]

I do actually think a really cool thing about Steph is that her reason for hating crime was that her dad did it.

She wasn’t mad at her dad for doing crime, which was bad, except inasmuch as him getting himself jailed left her and her mom in terrible financial straits and open to derision. She was mad at crime for being a thing associated with her father. Whom she hated.

Like, she’s never been a bad person, even as badly as she was sometimes written as behaving in Robin because her story role then was as a foil, goad, and source of drama in Tim’s life. And she grew into caring a lot about protecting and helping, via making the very short leap to identifying with victims.

But her initial motivation for the cape game was that very narrow grudge, and she’s not invested in legality for its own sake, but because its targets align with her own. Steph is one of the most firmly chaotic members of the batfam, probably the most.

And if Arthur Brown had still been Cluemaster but a really awesome, supportive dad whom she loved, as a kid she’d probably have been nearly as mad at the legal system for taking him away.

I kind of really want to read or write (but won’t because I’m dying of WIP and this is a plottier concept than I can just dash off) an examination of that, of the route that AU version of Steph would take, and where she’d reach forks in it.

Places where she could escalate in her urge to defend someone she loved, and paint herself into a corner of teenage supervillainy; places where she could realize that as much as she cared about him and as good as he was to her, his actions had unacceptable consequences for other people, other families, and she couldn’t support him any further.

(I feel like I’ve seen this general story done before, but usually with the greys of it muted by making sure the parent is horrifically evil to other people, or betrays the child first, or the kid didn’t know about the crimes, to make a sharper divide between the perceived beloved parent and the True Badness than realistically exists much of the time, and usually making the kid passive against everything but the parent.

And doing it with Steph, who already has so much established personality, appeals to me for the usual conversation-with-canon elements fanfiction offers.)

It’s really common, of course, for people who are horrible in general and people who are horrible to their families to be the same people, because quite often the being awful comes from the same set of behaviors, presumptions, and philosophies in both cases. Just, carried through.

But it’s not always the case. People aren’t that simple. Charitable pillars of society can make their children’s lives hell. People up to their necks in the worst kinds of violent crime can go home to their spouses and be desperately tender.

And there’s nothing about the Cluemaster shtick that requires him to be a very terrible person. Canonically Arthur Brown very much is, but that was largely established re: Steph, and his supervillain identity is almost tangential to that. He’s the Riddler but dumber, in a worse suit, with a stronger profit motive.

He steals things, mainly. Which is an activity that admits of a wide range of moral constitutions.

It doesn’t break the basic concept of Cluemaster or his role in the supercrime ecology, to flip him around so that he will say in all sincerity that he’s doing everything for his wife and baby girl.

(It’s a reality our prison-industrial complex likes us to flinch away from, that many men sitting in prison for real actual crimes are beloved, faithful, and adoring members of families. Who incidentally are charged an arm and a leg to contact the imprisoned, what the fuck.)

Which is what makes this AU concept so interesting to me, because it means it’s possible to change almost nothing about the setting and story outside the confines of the Brown family home, right up to the point where Steph makes contact with the Batfamily.

Which I guess would be most elegantly done by her finding out that her dad, having served his sentence and come home, can’t find work as a felon and so is getting up to super-crimes again.

And being like oh daddy you promised and assigning her own barely-fifteen-year-old ass to be his secret bodyguard and run interference with the Bats and sneak in to remove the stupid clues....

#hoc est meum #stephanie brown #cluemaster #she hits robin with a brick lol #alternate universe #good parenting #lol #ethics #priorities

[nightwingmyboi]

Dick Grayson Comic Recs

I’ve been getting an increase in requests for comic recs, so I finally caved and decided to list a bunch of comics and series I recommend about Dick Grayson and put it all in one convenient place. I also wrote out a little description/review, to try to give people an idea if the comic sounded appealing and they wanted to check it out. Some of these are just single comics, others are some series to check out, pretty much in chronological order. 

Robin: 

Robin (1993) Annual #4: One of my preferred Robin origin stories. Fairly solid characterization, and a more reasonable timeline for events than other tellings. Provides an inside look at Dick’s thoughts during this time. 

Batman: Dark Victory #9-13: All of Dark Victory is excellent, these are the issues that Dick appears in. It could be considered another Robin origin story, though it is not solely focused on Dick. Everyone is characterized very well, especially Dick. The plot is very engaging, involving Two Face and a crime family, along with tracking down Zucco. As the name implies, it is a bit grimmer than your usual retelling. 

Batman Chronicles: The Gauntlet: Dick has been training to be Robin, and he thinks he’s finally ready, but he has to pass Batman’s final test--to keep away from him for a whole night. Of course, the test goes off track, and Dick soon finds himself the target of a ruthless mob boss, his deadly gang of thugs, and the GCPD. Batman chases after Robin, trying to save him before it is too late. 

Robin: Year One: This is a four issue run that gives you a snapshot of the time where Robin is just introduced in the crime fighting scene. It features villains like the Mad Hatter and Two Face. The art style is really fun and dynamic, and we get to see Bruce and Dick start to figure each other out. Lots of Alfred as well! 

Scarecrow: Year One: Another fun look at Dick and Bruce’s relationship, a little further along the road. Dick is very small and cute, and has also basically become Bruce’s therapist lmao! Not a great Scarecrow origin story though.

Legends of the DC Universe #6: The first time Superman and Robin meet. An absolutely delightful team up, I still have cavities from reading it because it is just so sweet. This one is so good, read it. 

Teen Titans: Year One: A short little origin story for the fab five (ie Wonder Girl, Speedy, Kid Flash, Aqualad, and Robin). A cute introduction to the original titans. 

The New Teen Titans (1980) and (1984): Forming the Teen Titans was a really important part of Dick’s development as a superhero, and some of his best stuff is when he is in a team setting. This run has the team you’d be more familiar with if you watched the animated Teen Titans show: it has Raven, Starfire, etc. Dick decides that he is going to leave Robin behind in issue #39. 

Nightwing: 

The New Teen Titans: The Judas Contract: This is the infamous run where Terra betrays the Titans. Dick dons the name Nightwing for the first time in this run (discowing style), and goes off with Joey Wilson to save the rest of the Titans from Slade and Brother Blood. 

Batman #416: Dick meets Jason for the first time, and eventually the two bond over beating up some baddies. 

The New Titans (1988) #55: You can read this series too for some Titans action, but even if you don’t you should skip over and read issue #55. It shows how Dick reacted to Jason’s death, and how Bruce and Dick had a huge falling out. It’s heartbreaking to read honestly. 

Nightwing (1996): If you want to read Nightwing, it’d be best to look at his solo run also. It starts with him moving to Bludhaven, and continues from there. If you’re looking for Batfam cameos, I specifically remember issues #6 and #25 for its really cute brotherly Tim and Dick moments. Issues #13 - #15 have Dick and Batman working together. #105 and #106 have Jason (as Robin) working with Dick. There are a lot of solid Barbara moments throughout with her as Oracle. #138 is when he meets Damian for the first time. There’s a lot here, so I would just pick and choose the arcs that interest you, and go from there. 

Action Comics #771: Another comic where Nightwing and Superman team up. Sue me, I love their dynamic! 

Gotham Knights #17: Dick finally gets adopted in this one. 

Batman (1940) #615: This one is smack dab in the middle of the Hush arc, an arc that focuses on Batman’s relationship with Catwoman and a mysterious new villain named Hush. I like this arc of comics (they recently made it into a movie!) so if you want to read the whole thing it starts at #608. This is just one that features Nightwing a lot. I include it because I really enjoy the dynamic Dick and Bruce have. It’s good stuff. 

Titans/Young Justice Graduation Day #1-3: It’s fun to see Tim and Dick’s generations interact and deal with growing up as superheroes, and there is a lot of drama. Pretty important crap goes down in these comics: several people die, including Donna, and as a result Dick disbands the Titans. If you want to read Outsiders, you should really read this one first. 

Outsiders Vol 3 (2003): Dick is mourning Donna’s death and self-destructing, so Roy forms a team called the Outsiders--a team that is meant to be just business rather than a family. Dick is more stern and his temper is shorter than usual, but I think it is all pretty in character for him, especially since he is grieving. Highlights include Roy and Dick’s lovely relationship.

Teen Titans (2003) #6: Ok, I almost didn’t put this one on here because it is very self-indulgent, but I couldn’t resist. This series has the Teen Titans starting back up again without Nightwing, but in this issue he makes a little cameo. If you’ve seen those panels around where Nightwing lectures the Justice League? This is where it happens. He’s just really cool here. 

Batman: 

Batman #687-688: This follows the Batfam’s initial reaction to Bruce’s death, and how Dick begins to approach being Batman himself. It is technically an epilogue to Battle for the Cowl, but that doesn’t have to be read for these comics to be understood. 

Batman and Robin (2009): This is the series where we see Dick and Damian transform into people forced together who can barely tolerate one another, to some of the closest partners in the Batfam. They develop their relationship very nicely, and we get to see how Dick approaches a lot of the emotional and physical challenges that come with being Batman. Some of the arcs are good, some of them very much miss for me. 

Batman: Black Mirror: This is a collection of Detective Comics #871-881. I’d say these are  my favorite Dick!Batman stories ever. All the cases are very good (really chilling), and the characterizations are top notch stuff. Lots of Gordon, Barbara, and some Tim also. I won’t spoil who it is, but the big villain they have for this book is one of the best I’ve seen for Dick, an almost perfect foil in my opinion.

Batman: Gates of Gotham: A good story, it’s interesting to see how Dick interacts with his siblings as Batman. I think this may be one of the first times Cass and Damian meet, though I’m not positive about that. 

Just as a heads up, I’ve left out some significant events and this isn’t an exhaustive list on everything there is to know about the character. These are just some comics I enjoy. I hope they help you get a start on who Dick Grayson is, and how he figures into the Batfam and the larger superhero community.

#dick grayson #dick!robin #Dick!Batman #nightwing #DC comics #comics #comic recs #my comic recs #batman #long post

[incoherentbabblings]

OK so I've read pretty much (By which I mean all) everything you've written (TimSteph fanboy) and I love it, especially the Ice Queen story, kinda broke my heart a little there, but onto my question, or questions? IDK. Anywaaaaaay, I read that you want to write a mermaid AU (Which cool), but I'm also interested have you thought of doing a Stray!Tim and Steph!Robin, because I think that you could write it really well, just wondering. Thanks for uploading great content during the past year.

Thank you so much for reading all of them hehe! And I'm so happy the Snow Queen story is well liked, it's by far my most unconventional story for a batfam fanfic.

I have to admit, I'm not a huge fan of that au. Is it just Tim as Selina's partner? Because I don't think it would change much about Tim to be honest. He'd just have a different costume. Also I just haven't read enough of Selina's solo to feel like I could write her well, especially with regards to her relationships to kids in costumes.

I think it would be neat if you did want to flip the perspectives of Steph is the cynical and Tim as the optimist on its head, but then again I can just read RR and Batgirl for that... I dunno. I guess I'm just not sure what the appeal is. Is it just a vehicle to have Tim as an anti-hero? You guys just want them to mack on the roof don't you (fair enough). Tell me please! Like being one hundred percent earnest here: what's the appeal? What's the dynamic you think would be interesting?

I'm trying to apply logic here with there is none aren't I I'm sorryyyyy

If things pan out, I would like to write a civilan Tim and Robin Steph story? Like them meeting at college. That's a long way off though I think...

#dc #ask and i'll babble

[vanderwoodlings]

Author Self-Interview

well @rainathorpe put out an open-ended tag so uh. here we go

Fandoms: I’ve published stuff for gossip girl and dc comics (mostly batfamily but I’ve also got a supersons series) and young justice 2010, took brief stops in pjo, rvb, and spn. I’m also working on stuff for btvs and hp (though given… certain things, I have no idea if any of those will ever get published) and I’ve put out some art for rwby

Most popular multi-chapter fic: that’s like a weird, murdery uncle you don’t invite to thanksgiving (batman, batfam&rogues gen) technically, which is a two-shot batfam fic, and also one of two multi chapters I’ve ever published, so… it’s kind of weird to see that given that’s it’s not one I think about much, but then again it’s very much something with wide appeal, so it makes sense

Favorite story you’ve written so far: this question is rude, but also Boy Hostage (supersons, jon&damian, au where damian doesn’t leave the league: jon gets himself kidnapped) which is the kind of “getting to where you can deal with your trauma” fic that I write over and over again, and it’s centered around the growth of a platonic relationship, which always makes me, as an aro, like. Vibe

Fic you were nervous to post: uh. All of them? Posting fics is kind of terrifying in terms of how much I crave validation lol. But in specific, but what good is a quick healing to go (yj, artemis-centric gen set in a soulmate au) because a) it’s the other multi-chapter and it’s actually got a plot, b) it’s a genfic in a soulmate au, and c) it’s one that’s does draw some off of my own experiences and that made posting it pretty uh. Exposing

How do you choose your titles: mostly just track down some songs to listen to that have the right vibe, and wait for a lyric to feel right, but there are a few titled after Shakespeare quotes/mangled versions thereof (see: If music be the food of love, then—shut up, Epsilon!) and a couple that are allusions to motifs or events in the fic (e.g. gorgeous)

Do you outline: not usually, but most of my stuff is pretty short — I do have an outline for the Michaelverse, aka the hp fic of doom, and one for an untitled spn series that I’m still debating about whether to even write, but both of those are rewrites for like. Entire series

Complete: uh. Not sure what I’m being asked, but I will say that I try to complete my fics before posting them — posting something and then abandoning it is a fear of mine

Do you accept prompts: I’d like to, but as contained under the above fear, I wouldn’t want to accept a prompt and then not fill it, and I’ve got the adhd so

Upcoming story you’re most excited to write about: recently started a Henry pov fic set in an au that diverges from canon post-series but pre-epilogue and its a lot of fun

Stories you’re most excited to read: thinking about the future is extremely hard, but I’m always excited to see what @rainathorpe comes out with next, and whenever @strideofpride updates I'm still alive (or, the Pearl Jam trauma series) I get inordinately excited

No pressure tags: anyone and everyone who sees this. Go wild

#tag games #this is a writing tag #I guess #original nonsense

[bigskydreaming]

You're asked to choose one and only one or DC's future stops existing immediately. your choices:

1. Jason Todd the anti-hero who seldom works with only a couple of the bats he doesn't hate, for example Dick and Cass VS. Jason Todd who came back with healed body but broken spirit, folded back into the Gotham gang and learns to be part of the society again.

2. Tim Drake who makes all of his mistakes as canon but realizes he's been wrong and apologizes to people VS. Tim Drake back in his first iteration, a cute little brother character who is a reader insert and a fun teenager.

3. JayKyle VS DickKyle.

4. Jason Todd with a sword VS. Damian Wayne with a sword.

5. Chris Kent VS. Jon kent.

Okay but which DC future? Its omniversal future? Its hypertime future? Its multiversal future? Its Elseworlds future? Its dark multiverse future? Mwahahaha your threat is useless because the sheer wtf of DC's continuities, timelines and conflicting declarations of what to even call their multiomnihyperverse makes it impossible to target simply A future! DC's overly unnecessarily complicated nature renders it functionally immortal and impossible to ever truly destroy, take that Darkseid.

I mean. But anyway. Whatevs:

1) I honestly do prefer the idea of Jason someday fully reuniting/reintigrating into the Batfam as a whole, because fuck it, the found family I'm here for is the one where they actually act like a family....I just think it takes actual work to get to that point and I get irey when people are like we're here! We found it! And its like meanwhile, abusive dynamics still abound. Mmm. No thank you. But even though I've been on a huge Jason and Dick and Cass kick for like, forever, I do still aim for him having a dynamic of his own with the rest of the family.

Like the thing is, I hate playing the favorites card in families, and I think the emphasis on so and so being Bruce's favorite child or so and so being this kid's favorite sibling, etc, like it really does feel like to the detriment of the whole family, because once you start validating the idea of favorites, ESPECIALLY in a found family that is CONTINUOUSLY growing....I think you're kinda shooting yourself in the foot because you're kinda creating a situation where either no future new additions to the family can EVER be Bruce or one of the kids' 'favorite' or else you're innately positing that said fave status is conditional and even a current fave of Bruce or a sibling can be bumped down the ladder by the addition of a later arrival....

Which is LITERALLY the entire essence of the eternal conflict between Dick and Damian and Tim fans. Its not even that Damian is Dick's favorite, allegedly, its that prior to Damian's very EXISTENCE, fans felt comfortable declaring Tim unilaterally to be Dick's 'favorite'.....and then all it took was the addition of a single family member who had specific NEEDS in regards to Dick's attention and focus, largely because of his age and needing a legal guardian while Tim was old enough to literally jet set around the world on his own.....and like, everything went up in flames in large corners of fandom.

So I'm just like, death to the fave family member myth, its just incredibly counter productive to the idea of found family as a whole especially when it usually only exists to prop up a preferred character as better than others via the proof of see, these other characters say he's their fave or whatever...but also like, its not even necessary?

Because the thing is, you can have Jason reintegrated into the whole family overall, and still prioritize your personal narrative FOCUS on characters you like more than others, like say Dick and Cass.....because of course its natural for even people in the same family to have entirely different DYNAMICS with different family members....and these dynamics don't have to come with a ranking system in order to prioritize which ones you just focus on more in a story. Because its not necessarily that Dick has to be Jason's fave brother, y'know, just for Jason to prefer spending time with Dick simply because he's more comfortable with him due to knowing him longer or being more secure in the idea that Dick doesn't judge him based on their greater shared history.

This doesn't mean that Jason doesn't care for his other siblings, that he can't have strong dynamics with them as well, its just about finding a reason for why these two specifically might be in a story without the others that doesn't demand putting a definitive ranking on which one Jason considers his FAVE. Just like Damian doesn't have to be Dick's FAVE just for them to have the super close canon relationship they have, even relative to the other siblings, because there's everything needed in canon already to establish that the mere fact of Dick essentially RAISING Damian for a year, and being the first one in the family to really take a chance on Damian, like, this lends itself naturally to them maybe more naturally gravitating towards each other than other siblings due to comfort level and familiarity, etc, but it doesn't have to be like....oh but yeah, I just like Damian more than you, Tim, y'know?

So my answer on this one is a total cop out of both, both is good. Jason totally reintegrated back into the family, but with dynamics that still lend themselves fairly easily towards story lineups where its just him running missions with Dick or Duke or any other one or two specific family members even if for no other reason than they gel together best in the field, y'know?

2) Hmm. I honestly really do love and miss 90s Tim Drake and just....don't see him in a lot of what I read these days. I'm like no, why did he have to go, he was doing so well! BUT I'm also on a big accountability kick, and like, I'm so steeped in fics where Dick GROVELS for forgiveness for every little slight he's ever done real or imagined, with every character but Tim in particular, so its like.....I'm not gonna lie, I really have a preference these days for seeing stuff where its literally anyone actually owning up to shit they've done to Dick and apologizing or groveling or making it to HIM, like, completely unconditionally. In the same manner we usually see Dick apologizing, glossing over any reasons he might have had for doing what he did or feeling the way he did, and saying oh it doesn't matter, putting the entirety of his focus on what HE did and why it was wrong no matter what and he's sorry.....that's what I would kill to see from more fics, just in reverse.

Because so often even in the all too rare fics where we DO see other characters apologizing to Dick for shit, its watered down with Dick volunteering that oh he messed up too, it was a two way street, and its like no! This is Pettiness Hours! I want the unconditional apologies! Give me the groveling! From anyone, I don't care at this point, lol, just show me characters actually PUTTING IN THE WORK to make it up to Dick for harm they've caused him, even if completely unintentionally or via neglecting his feelings or considering the repercussions their actions or words would have on him. Aaaaaaand, frankly, Tim's a good place to start there, because of how one sided all the takes on their conflicts have been for so many years. I mean, if people need a place to start, Batman and Robin Eternal gets enough praise it can't be pretended that people in fandom don't know that story exists, so how about some stories where Tim says he's fucking sorry for punching Dick in issue #4 or #5 of that one, and it was uncalled for and he was clearly just looking for an excuse to unleash some more of his resentment and upset for the Spyral/Forever Evil stuff, and family deciding that its totally okay to punch Dick whenever they're mad at him and need to work off some aggression so they can then finally forgive him (for now) is a trend that needs to die in a fire post-haste? I mean just as an example.

But the thing that kills me about fanfic trends is like....the sameness of so much of it. There's SO much room for variety and diverse takes, and like....I don't actually hate Tim! I'm just cranky because of the imbalanced nature of most content out there for literal years at this point. Push the pendulum BACK in the other direction, create some balance by showing the flip side of things.....and that leaves a lot more room for me and others of like minds to then be more amenable to - and even interested in - other stories that don't scratch this particular itch, but don't need to, because other stories are doing the scratching by then, y'know?

And THEN like, at that point, I would be ALL FOR more stories that are just callbacks to classic 90s Tim who I adore, with his skateboarding and his EARNESTNESS and his go-get-em spirit and also the gumption. All the gumption. I like that Tim. I do miss that Tim. But like, for the moment, like, I want accountable Tim because I am tiiiiiiiired of groveling Dick and tbh at this point its not enough for me to just see people move past putting Dick in that position and just have mutually respective and doting brothers Dick and Tim having adventures together......nah, first I want some reciprocation. Ngl. Gimme the apologies for actual mistakes actually made.

3) DickKyle. Easy question, c'mon, you gotta know that. LOL. ;)

But yeah, I've been shipping these two off their like, two shared pages from way back in the Obsidian Age story years before Jason even returned, let alone was in Countdown together with Kyle, so like, its no contest. I don't mind JayKyle, I certainly prefer it to JayRoy tbh, but there's not a ton of appeal in it for me, particularly in how its usually depicted, because like....the entire basis of JayKyle is that they DO have stories together and spent a whole year worth of weekly issues traveling the multiverse together in Countdown.....but there's like, practically no trace of their actual dynamics from that series or any specifics of literally any issue from that entire comic in most fics I’ve read, so its like.....idk, it tends to come across as more generic, not in the sense that it cant still be interesting, but more in the sense that it feels like just someone paired with Jason just because history between them EXISTS without any interest in exploring what that history actually IS....and at that point, its like, well there's no reason TO prioritize that ship over DickKyle for me personally, when like, I have a shit ton of headcanon reasons for why those two in a pairing specifically. *Shrugs* My logic. Its not for everyone, but it works for me.

4) Jason with a sword or Damian with a sword? I don't understand the question. Both. Both is good. All the characters should have swords. Swords are awesome.

5) Chris Kent vs Jon Kent - oof. I adore Jon, I really do. I love his dynamic with Damian, I love a lot of their specific stories, the parallels between them as friends and Bruce and Clark as friends....its all very bien. But I gotta give this one to Chris, because I'm always gonna have a soft spot for him because I'm a sucker for all abused kid heroes, and I just miss that funky little dude so much. There's so many stories we didn't get with him and were just ripe for the picking, but nooooo, DC's like lol you can't have nice things, here we just rebooted the entire multiverse and now Clark and Lois never adopted the son of Clark's worst Kryptonian rival and raised him with tender love and care awww does that make you sad, were you invested in him, WELL TOO BAD, HE'S GONE NOW AND BASICALLY NEVER EXISTED, NOW GIVE US YOUR MONEY ANYWAY MWAHAHAHAHAH.

Yeah. I'm still not over that. Probably will never be tbh, so I with great grudge-bearing do affirm that I'm gonna go with Chris on this one and like, he is a Priority for me and I'm still very keen on the idea of him and Duke being besties for random reasons that might not make sense to anyone but me, but eh, whatever.

[cryptocism]

So since pretty much everyone agrees that Tim needs a name change, and I think most people dislike the first two RR costumes (I dislike the pretty much Robin one too, because it seems like he hasn’t accept losing Robin, when I feel a lot of his comics right after Bruce W died was about that?) which leads me to: What do you think Tim’s costume would look like if he got a good outfit, and what name?

o yeah i was not a fan of the cowl. and the n52 design is just… so busy and excessively accessorised (excessorised???) - i drew it a couple times for this project im workin on and the whole process was me squinting at reference panels and whispering softly but passionately “what the fuck” - and i agree on the rebirth RR design, it looks more derivative of dick and jasons retconned robin costumes than inspired by tims og 80s design (however. the unternet costume - its simple and appealing and clearly nightwing-inspired and i am a fan, also the giant scythe/halberd/mace thing was so ridiculous i loved it)

which is why i thank pat gleason for my life bc tims new outfit is such a good modernisation of his original robin design. so i mean to answer ur question i think tim has a p good design right now (although not for long i guess since they announced hed get a new look/codename soon) BUT if i were in charge of debuting a new design and name… hm……….

whatever his new name is, it’d preferably have something to do with wherever his personal storyline is headed, which i dont know, and for all my complaining abt how red robin is a shit name i dont actually have great alternatives lol. i did see somewhere the suggestion for the name “Cardinal” which i dont hate, so ill use that as a placeholder for now (although “Halcyon” is an interesting option)

tangentially, my personal preference for his robin graduation would be a miniseries featuring tim and damian both as robin, begrudgingly having to work together to fight some greater enemy and becoming true brothers along the way. ending with tim giving damian his blessing to be robin (a post-mantle blessing but still) with the first amicable passing on of the robin title literally ever

as for Look: his new design should a) accurately reflect his character b) mesh well with whatever tone his personal storyline is going for c) be a natural progression of gleasons newest iteration while still d) able to stand as its own iconic look

i always thought tim would do really well in a more grounded noir-style detective story, both using and especially subverting the tropes of the genre (for instance tim befriends every femme fatale and romances absolutely zero of them. theyre pals and have weekly movie nights or smthn) obvs using some of the mystery elements to springboard into classic comic wild times etc etc. theres also a great opportunity to include some more cyberpunk aesthetics to the look and feel ofthe story

i.e. tim is part of the waynetech r&d teams, working with them to develop new technologies, and proceeding to test out some of the prototypes while doing vigilante work (bc terry had to get his rocket boots from somewhere ok). gotham is still gotham, but its starting to see some of that neo-futuristic/blade runner flavour from batman beyond.

so. cyberpunk detective story starring cha boy tim drake. im not gonna draw it rn but lemme just gather some ref elements here in case i ever do

first off - motorcycle, obviously. redbird is back babey and this time its a two-wheeler. all his gear would be modded the hell out of, but the motorcycle itself would be an approximate balance of 70% ducati and 30% tron lightcycle situation. a speedy bike with ample room for the edgy overkill batfam aesthetic, with maybe a little akira in there who knows

same goes for helmet; 70/30 on this modern/cyberpunk situation. heres a quickly photoshopped “cardinal” helmet lol 

although theres totally room for some daft-punk leds in there. serving as a heads up display AND a fun neon aesthetic. I really want to play into that John Wick neo-noir situation.

besides that… ive got a preference for street style over the superhero spandex, so… detective jacket. every detective has a good jacket. norm breyfogle made a comment on his early tim robin designs that itd be pretty either/or on jacket vs cape, merging the two looked a little silly. for robin they probably decided on cape to keep things classic, but for cardinal i can do what i want

and i want to bring back some of this popped collar.

which i basically did for that other tim design i drew, which i still like, so this one would probably be at least a lil borrowed from that. 

attempting to merge cape/jacket might end up smthn like these:

which admittedly i like. 

admittedly… i do also like the concept of wings introduced in tims n52 design, i just think they couldve been hidden/incorporated better

greig rapson had a sweet robin design that had a sort of flight-suit (which dove into the actual mechanics??? i love) and since id want to dive into tim testing out waynetech prototypes, its a pretty good natural progression from him to terrys glider thing

the whole ensemble would be fairly understated however - enough to semi blend in with any crowd, hero or civilian. after all the story focus would be just as much about solving the mystery as it is punching the bad guy

the various interchangeable gadgets would be both prototypes of terrys eventual batsuit, and also all the failed prototypes that never managed to get off the ground. just to add an element of tension/plot devices wherein tims gear could break or malfunction pretty much anytime.

im fixated on this rocket boot situation though so itd be a paired down version of terrys eventual seamless/invisible design. still noticable and clunky, but working with the sleek modernish style outlined by gleason

smthn almost similar to the prowler actually from spiderverse - as in: Clearly Rocketboots, and clearly diy’d the shit out of, but still working with that Aesthetic

(most of the screencaps of prowler are dark af so im taking this from jesus alonso iglesias concept art) 

im debating on the addition of more overtly birdlike/cyberpunk elements, so ill add this here cause its dope as fuck (from ahmet atil akar). 

and a lot of batclan capes tend to end with that concave spiked look, which works great for bats but not really for birds. a tailcoat might emulate the bird tail, but it also might evoke Penguin a lil too much idk.

also in the interest of keeping everything within the same sort of design language, i would Love to see some new villains emulating deconstructionist/architectural kawakubo fashion:

like could you imagine the supervillain potential

so uhhh yeah. budding cyberpunk detective story with a little noir and a little technological advancement progressing in fits and starts. taking from the gleason foundation with heavy black featuring brighter coloured accents and modern sleekness, made a little dorky via prototype technology, with some extra neon blade runner shit thrown in there.

depending on how much i love or hate the new codename/design reveal i might draw this via inspired motivation or spiteful motivation lol

#asks #tim drake #tim redesign ref #tim scarlet redesign

[shishidoryofan]

can i ask what makes dickkory important and appealing to the fans. im still new to this whole thing about comic dickkory . i dont really know much about their relationship in the comics some people say its only lust others say she helped dick become a better person idk which one i should believe

Thanks for the ask!

I absolutely love Dick and Kory’s relationship (they come only second to MJ and Peter) and I will typically support any media that has them as a couple. I can not speak for everyone but the main reason why I feel they are important as a couple for me is because they have so much history and years dedicated to each other.

If you see a lot of Dickkory fans complaining about their current (non)existent relationship in the current comics, it is because after almost 2 decades of being romantically linked/being a couple in the comics, the batman editorial group took Dick Grayson from the Titans series back in the mid-90s and basically did all they could do to destroy Dick’s relationship with Kory.

DICK WAS NOT WITH KORY BECAUSE OF JUST LUST!

A lot of people claim that for two reasons:

1) Kory is a very attractive woman and her uniforms in the past can be seen as very revealing

2) Dick and Kory are a couple who were having sex just like numerous of other couples

Writers who wanted Dick Grayson in a relationship with another female character had to make up a reason is to why Dick was with Kory for so long and lust/sex was just easier for them. Writers in the late 90s and early 2000s wanted Dick Grayson/Nightwing to be associated with the Batman family and less with the Titans, so the end product was them giving Dick a love interest that was a part of the Batman universe.

This was easy to do with the Batman: The Animated Series being a sensational hit. I always say that superhero movies and cartoons bring a bigger crowd than comics, and that was the case for B:TAS.

Dick Grayson had a love interest in B:TAS that was not Kory, so the Batfam editorial department took the chance to transfer that romance to the comics. They retcon A LOT of stuff regarding Dick Grayson himself AND his relationship with Kory to make it seem like he was never really in love with Kory and the other woman was always the love of his life.

They even retcon Dick emotionally and physically cheating on Kory just to prove a point that the other woman was the love of his life.

BUT LET’S GO TO THE REASON WHY DICKKORY IS APPEALING TO ME:

Once again, I will not speak for all Dickkory fans, but I basically have 3 reasons why I find their relationship appealing: I grew up with them, I like their relationship dynamic, and I love nonhuman/human relationships in fiction

1) I Grew Up With Them:

This is probably true for almost all of my favorite comic book couples, but I love Dick and Kory’s relationship because I grew up with them as Robin and Starfire in the 03 Teen Titans series. While I was not big on shipping them at the time, I did know that tend to really enjoy the episodes (like “Betrothed” and “Stranded”) that dealt with examining their relationship. It’s because I loved the Teen Titans cartoon so much (and still do to be honest) that got I got into reading Wolfman’s New Teen Titans. It’s because I loved Robin and Starfire’s relationship in the cartoon, that I got the comics to see how their relationship worked in the comics.

2) I Like Their Relationship Dynamic:

When people say that Starfire helped Dick Grayson become a better person, I believe that is true. Starfire was created in small part to help develop Dick Grayson’s character. She worked and saw the world and a completely different light that Batman, and Dick that helped from, in my opinion, Batman 2.0.

Also, this may sound cheesy, but I see Kory as the light to Dick’s world. To Dick, Kory represents a person who does not let her dark past get to her (unlike Batman). I love Kory because she always tend to look on the lighter side of life, and that greatly affected Dick

3) I Love NonHuman/Human Relationships in Fiction:

When I read, watch, or listen to a type of fiction, I am not always looking for the same old stuff I can find in my daily life. When it comes to romance in fiction, I tend to gravitate towards to romances that are out of the norm. I am not looking for two normal childhood friends that grew up together and fell in love.

I love Dick Grayson and Koriand’r’s relationship because it is weird on the surface level. Do you know how weird it would be if I told a Batman fan in the 60s (or even the 40s) that Robin from Batman and Robin most iconic and serious relationship would be with an alien?! If you only knew Robin as the dorky sidekick or from the Batman cartoons, you would think I am joking or shake your head on how weird comic books are.

And that’ s exactly why I love them. Dick and Kory’s relationship is the prime example of a comic book (or any fictional relationship) couple. They are basically two people from two different worlds and backgrounds who were able to work through that because they love each so much. Wolfman and other writers do such a great job of presenting Dick and Kory’s relationship as so wholesome that you see them as a normal couple.

People who ship Dick with other women tend to default to the fact the with Kory being alien, Dick and her relationship would them going on space adventures all the time and Dick would leave earth. While I would like a series like that, I think people tend to forget that Kory has spent so many years on earth already that I see her ever leaving the planet for good. In fact, Perez and Wolfman has said that Dick (and the Titans) are the pull that keeps Kory on earth.

So yeah, that is why Dickkory is appealing to me. Of course, I am not speaking for other Dickkory fans so their answers might be completely different from mine. I love their relationship and hope DC Comics will give them another chance in the comics one day.

#i really enjoyed typing this #i would of added pictures but I'm at work #so excuse the typos for now #dick grayson #koriand'r #starfire #nightwing #dickkory #dickkori #dickory #dc #dc comics #asks #titans