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sorin-in-the-sixth-sense · 4 years

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Snape, Lily, and the Marauders

(Edited and improved version.)

Apologies in edvance, my english isnt perfect.

I got into a discussion with a Snater yesterday about Lily/Severus and James/Severus. I didn’t get to reply to half of her arguments before she blocked me. BUT, I did get to screenshot two of her replies which I am going to go through today. I’m gonna try to answer each of her arguments and explain my views as good as possible. Yesterday, I talked about why calling a Snape fan «Snape/Bully apologist» is not okay, this is the same Snater, but yesterday’s post wasn’t about defending Snape, so I didn’t bring up her arguments and I didn’t defend them, but I’m doing that today. Before I and the Snater started arguing about using Snape Apologist to adress Snape fans, I did defend Snape’s love for Lily in my first reply, including the scene where he dropped a branch on Petunia.

Reply 1:

He was 9 years old and he was able to HURT Petunia because he WANTED to. Yes, it was accidental magic but it happened because he WANTED to hurt Petunia somehow but wouldn’t act on it. Yes, Petunia insulted him bc of his poverty, but if he loved Lily that much, he’d know not to wish any harm on someone Lily loved.

It was his feelings that caused him to perform accidental magic, yes, the same with Harry on Marge. But indeed, he wanted to hurt Petunia. You say he was able to hurt Petunia at the age of nine, but that’s going against just what you said in your next sentence. He wasn’t able to hurt Petunia. He was able to want to hurt Petunia. That’s not the same thing and. Its not a crime to want to hurt someone. Its bad when you actually, purposefully, hurt them.

Many years ago, when I was maybe eleven, my best friend got really close with a girl we went to school and ballet with. I hated this girl (or at least, I though I hated her) I felt like she tried to take my friend away from me and become her new best friend. I felt like she hated me and wanted me to go away, therefore I hated her. One day, when we were walking to our ballet lesson for the week, I felt completely ignored by both of them. I saw how close they were and, I wanted to hurt her. I wanted her to fall off her bike, I never would’ve pushed her, but I’m certain, if I had magical powers, something would’ve happened out of my control, like what happened with Severus.

As you pointed out, Petunia mocked him for his poverty.

‘What is that you’re wearing anyway?’ she said, pointing at Snape’s chest. ‘You’re mum’s blouse?’

This goes deep on a boy like Severus. An extremely poor and neglected child. He didn’t owe his own clothes and had to wear his mum’s smock and father’s large coat. He was so ashamed of it that the first thing he does when he arrives at the Hogwart’s express, is to change into his school robes. The thing that happened to me, is the same thing that happened to Severus. I wanted that girl to hurt, but I wouldn’t go that far. Severus wanted Petunia to hurt, he wouldnt go that far, but unfortunatly, accidental magic is a thing.

The snater’s say on the incident was as usual filled with hypocrisy. She claimed that James’ love for Lily was pure and true. At the same time, she claims that Severus’ love for her was obsessive and unhealthy because of the accident with Petunia. Because he wanted to hurt someone Lily loved. That’s exactly what James did for seven years. And all that wasn’t even close to an accident. So, when Snape accidently hurts Lily’s sister, he’s obsessed, but when Potter purposefully hurts Lily’s best friend relentlessly, before and after they get together, its true love? Huh.

When I pointed that out to her, she replied:

Lily never loved Severus, she only liked him as a friend.

Putting aside the fact that they ignored my reply, and went on to say something completely unrelated, let me just prove it wrong.

Its against canon. Lily and Severus were best friends for seven years, five of those seven years, James relentlessly bullied Severus. Including sexual assault. when Lily and James dated, he hurt Severus, though more descreet.

Rowling stated after the release of The Deathly Hallows, that Lily did love Severus.

Did Lily ever have feelings back for Snape?

Yes. She might even have grown to love him romantically. She certainly loved him as a friend

As her best friend, Lily loved Severus. If Severus didn’t love the Dark Arts so much, she would’ve even loves him romantically. If you think Severus loved Lily in such obsessive way because of an accident where he hurts her sister. Why doesn’t that rule apply to James? Why is his love for her pure, but Snape’s isn’t? (spoiler alert: none of it was.)

The Snater seems to want to defend James when I mentioned him (as expected)

Severus and James were rivals so they BOTH assaulted each other during their time at Hogwarts.

This is a perfect example of what not to say in a debate, because that‘s a fanon claim, not canon. In an argument about fiction, you use canon (thats quite obvious) That means what is written in the books, and what the author has stated. And what did we see in SWM? We see James assaulting Severus both physicly and sexually. In Career’s Advice, we read that Sirius and James bullied Snape. 2-1. Rowling used the term «relentless bullying» to describe what they did to Severus.

‘Snape was a special case. I mean, he never lost an oppertunity to curse James so you couldn’t really expect James to take that lying down, could you?’

- Remus Lupin, OoTP, Career’s Advice

I see that many Snater use this as proof that Snape bullied James back.

First of all. You don’t «bully each other» you don’t bully back. Bullying is always one-sided. If the bully victim is fighting back, that is called self defense.

It was always 4-1. It was never fair because 1) in SWM, the crowd only cheared on James, but when Severus made James bleed, there was no chearing crowd. It’s very evident it was like that the other times they dueled in front of a crowd. 2) James and Sirius (supported and cheared on by Peter, not discouraged by Prefect Remus) against one Severus, sometimes defended by Lily (who, in this situation, only made it worse)

That isn’t rivalry, that isn’t fair. They hated each other, but they didn’t bully each other. A bully victim is still a bully victim, even if said bully victim fights back.

Second of all, hear-and-say isn’t always what happened. Before and after Lupin claimed that Snape faught too, he and Sirius tried to make multiple excuses for Potter’s bullying:

‘I wouldn’t like you to judge your father on what you saw there, Harry. He was only fifteen —‘

Here Lupin uses the classic «boys will be boys» excuse, which many Snaters use too, while also lying(?) about James’ age, which we know was 16, at the time. Harry doesn’t buy it, though.

‘Look, Harry,’ said Sirius placatingly, ‘James and Snape hated each other from the moment they set eyes on each other, it was just one of those things, you can understand that, can’t you?’

Here Sirius excuses it by claiming it was some kind of rivalry and «just one of those things» then he continues to say James was everything Snape ever wanted to be - popular, handsome, etc ... and that Snape was just a little oddball. Then he uses the excuse that Snape liked Dark Arts, and James always hated that. Somehow, that makes it okay?

‘Everyone thought [James and Sirius] were the height of cool — if they sometimes got a bit carried away —‘

A bit carried away. Well that’s an understatement. Lupin tries to make it sound less harmful than it was, as a way of defending it.

Right after Lupin says this, Sirius called them selves arrogant little berks, Lupin smiled, and they started looking back on memories and laughing — having a good time and talking about good ol’ Prongs.

Disgusting, if you ask me.

Looking at how many times they tried to excuse James, it is guite evident that they didn’t tell Harry the whole truth. They were desperate to defend James and make him look as good as Harry always imagined he was, while throwing Snape, the victim, under the bus.

Moving on

I’m not going to defend James for his behavior but the memory you saw was SNAPE’S memory so it could’ve been easily biased.

I will never understand why snaters say the memory could’ve been, or was biased. How was it biased exactly? The memories can only be viewed from a non-participant, third-person point of view. Harry was the one who saw the memory, it was from his POV, not Snape’s. The pensieve shows precisely what happened and allows the viewer to see and move around in the memory.

Unless you do something to the memory, patch it up and cobble it together as Rowling said about Slughorn’s memory.

It’s reality. It’s important that I have that across, because Slughorn gave Dumbledore this pathetic cut-and-paste memory. He didn’t want go give up the real thing, and he very obviously patched it up and cobbled it together

Snape’s memory was very obviously not a tampered memory, or fake at all. There is nothing weird and unusual happening in the memory. It allowed Harry to see it exactly as it was. And it wouldn’t make sense if Snape tampered with the memory, would it? Because he had no intention of showing it to anyone. The reason he removed it to the pensieve was so that Harry wouldnt accidently see it. But unfortunatly for Snape, Harry visited those memories without his consent when Snape was absent. And Snape’s reaction when he caught Harry watching his memory shows that he was afraid that Harry would see it. A vulnerable side of him. The day he lost the only person he ever loved, and a moment where he was being humiliated severely. Of course he wouldn’t want Harry to see any of that.

If he did tamper with the memory, wouldn’t he take away what he said to Lily, and what she said back to him? If he tampered with it, why would he not tamper with that part. The part that made it his worse memory (including the sexual assault of course)

The next thing the Snater says is a reply to when I said James blackmailed Lily. Her reply:

He never blackmailed Lily into dating him, he was joking around telling her he’d let Snape go if Lily went out with him — that’s not blackmail, that’s joking around, irritating Lily even more.

What is blackmail? And what is joking around?

[Blackmail] is to force (someone) to do something by using threats or manipulating their feelings.

What did James say to Lily? What was his reaction when she told Severus to be left alone?

‘You think you’re funny,’ she said coldly. ‘But you’re just an arrogant, bullying toerag, Potter. Leave him alone.’

‘I will if you go out with me, Evans,’ said James quickly. ‘Go on ... go out with me and I’ll never lay a wand at old Snivelly again,’

So Potter says if she doesn’t go out with him, he won’t leave her friend alone. That is not joking around. That is very seriously an act of blackmail. He is currently assaulting Severus, Lily tries to defend him, and Potter uses the situation as an oppertunity to get under her pants. Why would any decent person think thats ok, even if it was said in a joking manner?The only reasons this is overlooked by the fandom is because 1) the Marauders are romantasized to the point of delusion. 2) ignorance is bliss. And 3) he got the girl in the end.

It is easy to ignore it because we get plenty of (bad) excuses to use to defend James. But at the end of the day, everything James did in SWM is inexcusable.

Done with the memory, not done with Potter:

James is not the same as Snape and at least James MATURED by 7th year FOR Lily. There is a clear reason why Lily chose James instead of Snape.

Yes, there is a clear reason why Lily chose Potter, but not cause he changed (even so, why would it be ok to date your ex best friends’s bully?)

But there is this line in OoTP, Career’s Advice about James maturing and «deflating his head a bit»

‘Snape was a special case. I mean, he never lost an oppertunity to curse James so you couldn’t really expect James to take that lying down, could you?

‘And my mum was OK with that?’

‘She didn’t know much about it, to tell you the truth,’ said Sirius. ‘I mean, James didn’t take Snape on dates with her and jinx him in front of her, did he?’

James just couldn’t stop bullying Snape, even if it was against his girlfriend’s wishes. He chose to continue because that’s the kind of person James is. He thought he could have Lily no matter what. That all he had to do was lie and she would come running to him and marry him on the spot? It’s evident to us that Potter got whatever by lying. Lily was never aware and I think she deserved to know. She deserved to have an honest choice. She chose James, yes, I don’t begrudge her for chosing him, it is what it is. But at the same time I wonder, would she have dated him if she’d known he never stopped?

Then there’s what happened after graduation. One of the many factors in the series that makes me question Lily and James’s marriage. They married at eighteen, right? After dating for one or two years. That’s interesting. Not only that, but James got Lily pregnant at the age of nineteen, while still being literal teenagers. Lily was way to young to have a child at nineteen, not to mention it was in the middle of a war, and the couple hadn’t been together for nearly enough time to pop out children already. I can see Lily as a responsible person, but she was baraly an adult. She had her whole life ahead of her and she chose to have a child? It was clearly not a planned pregnancy. Why would they do it so young? Why would they do it during a war? I think the pregnancy has a lot to do with Potter’s irresponsibility. Well, it could be something else. Accidental pregnancies happen all the time. But its not hard to imagine its one of the many, simply irresponsible and careless things he did.

Here is some other example’s of his irresponsibility:

James is getting a bit frustrated shut up here, he tries not to show it but I can tell — also, Dumbledore’s still got his invisibility cloak, so no chance of little excursions.

No chance of little excursions, Lily writes.

It gets me thinking about his so called responibility for his family as a father. Now that he’s a father, shouldn’t Lily not have to worry about him putting his family in mortal danger just because he’s «frustrated» shut up in Godric’s Hallow?

Why had she worried about that? She certainly had a reason to, why else would she mention it in the letter, had Potter gone out before Dumbledore took his cloak? Do with it what you will.

Another example of his irresponsibility is Rowling’s prequal she wrote in 2008 about James and Sirius and some muggle policemen.

In case you don’t know what a prequal is:

A prequal is a literary, dramatic or cinematic work whose story precedes that of a previous work, by focusing on events that occur before the original narrative.

In the prequal we see James and Sirius magically upend the policemen’s car and the broomsticks crash into it. It is a funny story, but when you think more about it, they look like those douchbags from highschool TV-shows that think they’re cool for doing reckless things and can get away with anything.

But Anderson never got to the name of the charge. James and Sirius had shouted something incomprehensible, and the beams from the headlights had moved. The policemen wheeled around, then staggered backwards. Three men were flying — actually flying — up the alley on broomsticks - and at the same moment, the police car was rearing up on its back wheels.

Fisher’s knees buckled, he sat down hard; Anderson tripped over Fisher’s legs and fell on top of him, flump — bump — crunch — they heard the men on broomsticks slam into the upended car and fall, apperantly insensible, to the ground, while broken bits of broomstick clattered down around them.

Sirius and James are described earlier to seem to be in their late teens. That could be around seventeen, eighteen or nineteen.

Seventeen - when James was off age in the wizarding world and already dating Lily.

Eighteen - when James was off age in the wizarding world and the muggle world and married to Lily.

Nineteen - when James had been married to Lily for a year and was expecting a child.

Like I said, reckless. Nothing supports the claim that Potter grew out of it, not before he got himself killed, anyway.

Now that I’ve made that clear, Let’s move on from James and talk about the night after the Mudblood incident. The Snater thought it was unacceptable that Severus apologized the way he did. Wonder why.

I was critiquing the way in which he begged Lily to become friends with him again after calling her a SLUR.

Let’s first talk about the fact that he called Lily mudblood. It seems to trouble the Snater that, too.

Lily, whose furious expression had twitched for an instant as though she was going to smile, said, ‘Let him down!’

This little smile could play a big role in why Severus reacted in the way he did.

If Severus saw that smile, saw that she smiled at the sight of him being assaulted, don’t you think he would feel a angry or betrayed? Making him want to hurt her back. That’s a very human thing to want. When someone hurt your feeling, you want to hurt them to and Severus went too far and called her the worst word he could come up with. It was too late when the word had escaped his mouth. And he instantly regretted it. That word became his worst memory. His biggest regret (after telling Voldemort the prophecy, I suppose)

Then the Snater started defending Lily:

Lily smiled, as would any teenager do so if he/she saw a class-mate’s underwear. She did it by mistake and immediatly stopped and DEFENDED Snape because she was always «uncommonly kind» as many people described her to be. She didn’t smile at the fact that he was being assaulted, she smiled bc she saw his underwear which any teenager would smile at, as if they’d grin. That doesn’t give Snape an excuse to call her the m-word, its inexcusable as you said.

I don’t believe it matters why she smiled. She might have just blushed, or have been flattered by Potter (if that’s the case, then what on earth was the message Rowling tried to give us? That blackmailing was charming?)

What matters is that she did smile and that smile could have meant anything to Severus. In the situation he was in, I doubt he would try to think positive of it. He wouldn’t stop to think «hey, maybe she didn’t find it funny after all?» he was in a position of humiliation and saw his best friend smile at it, that would make any common person lash out and lose temper. Why do we act like it was more vile than what happened to him?

I‘m a little confused that the Snater claims that any teenager would smile if he/she saw a class-mates underwear. I, and I know this applies to my friends to, would never find it amusing that a class-mate of mine was being harassed like that and got his underwear exposed, let alone my best friend. It seems like such a shitty thing to do. I wouldnt find it amusing in the least. But I suppose it tells us enough about them

As I said, it doesn’t give Severus an excuse for the fact that he called her a slur, but it does give us a different view of the situation and Severus’ side of the incident. It gives us an understanding of him and a realistic explaination. More than just «he hated muggleborns»

Back to his apology.

Somehow, the Snater found the way in which he apologized troubling. The way he «begged» for forgiveness?

Why is that looked at as bad? Why is asking her to listen and consider forgiving him a bad thing to do? I’ve re-read the scene where he apologizes and I think I get it, but we’ll come back to that later.

First, let’s take a look at the scene.

‘I’m sorry.’

‘I’m not interested.’

‘I’m sorry!’

‘Save your breath.’

It was night-time. Lily, who was wearing a dressing gown, stood with her hands folded in front of the portrait of the Fat Lady, at the entrance to Gryffindor Tower.

‘I only came out because Mary told me you were threataning to sleep here.’

‘I was. I would have done. I never meant to call you Mudblood, it just —‘

A summery:

Severus comes to Gryffindor Tower and first meets Mary Mcdonald. He says he would sleep there if he needed to, and Mary goes to get Lily so that she can probably «talk some sense into him» Lily comes out and the first thing he does is say sorry. When she says she’s not interested, he repeated himself more desperate (i’m sorry!) then he tries to explain himself and she interrupts him.

He doesn’t even ask for forgiveness. All he does is try to explain himself and say how sorry he is. He doesn’t seem to expect her to forgive him and he doesn’t stop her from walking away and inside her common room again. After that night, we don’t see or hear of him ever bothering her or talking to her ever again. He shows no bitterness towards her and her choice to cut ties, he blamed himself for the whole thing.

What I think is the thing that bothered the Snater is the fact that he said he would sleep outside the common room if she didn’t let him explain himself. Which is not harmful to anyone in any way, except him.

Sleeping outside the common room which happened to be the common room to the two boys who had relentlessly bullied him for years and sexually assaulted him just a couple of hours ago. It was a great risk he took. Had Potter or Black found out about Severus’ whereabouts, they wouldn’t take that lying down, would they? (pun intended) If they found him in the morning, they would definitely make it a morning to remember. Not in a positive way.

Severus was desperate to give her an apology and explain himself. That‘s not bad. It was because she was his only good friend and the only person who ever loved him. He was attached to her (as anyone in his situation would be) but not obsessed.

But of course, because it was he who tried to apologize, they want to think it was negative. It was Severus Snape and I have found by experience that they find almost everything he does bad. I have seen a lot of instances where they try to twist on it to make it look somehow bad. Even being Dumbledore’s spy for years is considered bad for some Snaters. But alas, not everyone can use their brain well.

If it was James Potter who tried to apologize for, for example, hurting her friend, the fandom would see no harm in it and consider it a wonderful act of remorse, right?

Reply 2:

It is more about the fanon claim that Snape was obsessed with Lily. I have gone through that conversation with different Snaters multiple times, it shouldn’t be that hard

Now, in any other case, him begging wouldn’t be as unsettling but in Snape’s case it is bc we know how oddly obsessed he is with Lily.

See, they wholly rely on the claim that he was obsessed with her in order for it to have been a «troubling situation» and now that I’ve made it clear he hadnt shown any obsessive behavior, these kind of replies doesnt matter anymore, and snaters, repeating something over and over again doesnt make it true(;

He said, and I quote, ‘I won’t let you —‘. Sounds very possesive to me, he won’t let Lily make her own choices? Now that sounds VERY creepy.

That is not at all how the scene went. Of course we are not always going to interpret things the same way, for we are different people with different views. But let me quote his whole sentence.

Snape’s whole face contorted and he spluttered, ‘Saved? Saved? You think he was playing the hero? He was saving his own neck and his friends’ too! You’re not going to — I won’t let you —‘

He says this after Lily brings up the Werewolf incident where Sirius planned to lure him down to the Shrieking Shack where Remus Lupin was transforming into his werewolf — an extremely dangerous werewolf that won’t hesitate before he eats you. — And Potter founds out about Sirius’ plan and saves Severus in the last moment to spare his werewolf friend and Sirius from a future in Azkaban. It was not about saving Severus, more about saving his friends necks.

Severus believed Potter was a part of that plan (Lupin too) and just got cold feet in the end. Lily doesn’t know the whole story and thinks that Severus just walked in the Shack at the wrong time and that James saved him and was being heroic.

‘And you’re being really ungrateful. I heard what happened the other night. You went sneaking down that tunnel by the Whomping Willow and James Potter saved you from whatever’s down there —‘

This ^ makes him say ‘You’re not going to — I wont let you’

He didn’t want Lily to believe that was what happened. He didn’t want her to think Potter was being a selfless hero because Severus thought that it was Potter who tried to kill him in the first place, and who would want their friend to think their abuser was doing something good and tell them they were being ungrateful?

I believe he was also afraid that she would change her opinion on James from an «arrogant toerag» to a brave hero (oh look, she did) James Potter, who had abused him for years, had a chance to become close to Lily. And it wasn’t about him wanting Lily for himself, it was about not wanting to lose her to his abuser.

Even after her death, he was obsessed with her and when he saw how much Harry resembled James, he treated Harry and his friends like pure shit. Imagine treating your first «love’s» son like shit just bc of an old rivalry with his dad? LOL, seems more like an obsession than «love» to me. For someone who «devoted his life to loving Lily» Snape sure did a good job looking into Harry’s green eyes and stil act viciously with him.

Being horrible to Harry and co is a part of what makes Snape’s love for her so flawed. It is a very flawed love, might I even say unhealthy. But that doesn’t automatically make it an obsession. Flawed/unhealthy love does not mean obsession. No love is perfect, and Snape’s is far from that.

I think Snape’s horrible treatment of Harry is a very interesting topic. When you first take a deeper look with critical mind on it.

I haven’t seen anyone believe the same as me (Maybe somebody does, I just haven’t seem it) But I believe his treatment of Harry had more to do with the feeling of power more than just an old rivalry with his dad, as the Snater think.

They pointed out that Harry resembles James. Have you considered that would trigger his trauma? Seeing the carbon copy of his bully almost every day isnt possibly an easy experience, and since he had no support system to help him, he resolved to bullying Harry to make him feel like he had the power over his dad.

James Potter abused Severus for seven years while at Hogwarts, Severus craved power over him (which is, according to Rowling, the reason he joined the death eaters) He saw Harry and believed he was just like his father, in personality and in looks. So by treating Harry like shit because he had the power to do it, made him feel like he did it to James.

That’s really fucked up, to be completely honest. But it is an interesting view of his reasons behind his bullying. And its not because his mom wouldnt fuck him, or because of a «school boy grudge», as many people claim.

Severus never forgot Lily Evans or stopped loving her. He never got over her death. But what does that prove that he was obsessed?

He never got over her death because he blamed himself for it. If he hadn’t told Voldemort about the prophecy, Lily would have been alive. He knows that and he hates himself for it. Her death even made him crave death (‘I wish - I wish I was dead’) and he never had anyone to help him recover or get over his grief.

He never stopped loving her and never forgot her. That is what makes his love special. If it had just been a childhood crush or a simple first love, he would have stopped loving her after time. But he was attached to Lily. She was the only one who ever loved him or showed him kindness, which he thought was the rarest thing in the world. No one would get over that. At least I wouldn’t, and not Snape either.

Oh and how could I forget how lil Snape would frequently spy on Lily at age 9 behind a bush.

(I was waiting for this one😒)

Snape was a neglected and (through pottermore, physically abused by the wip) child who saw a girl who was just like him, special. He watched her from afar when she visited the play park because he was too shy to go up and speak to her — which is very normal for a child who wants to make friends.

As a lonely child, he wanted a friend, someone to be there for him and laugh with him. He desperatly needed that happiness. Can you blame him for that? And are you seriously trying to say that a nine year old boy was creepily obsessed with his only chance of a friend? Who’s the creepy one now? (its u)

Oh wow, this thing’s really long. I used nine hours to write this ridiculously long essay. I hope some people out there stayed with me to the end. For you, I appreciate it!

I hope this helped you understand Severus Snape and his actions better. And I hope you will use many of these arguments against the next Snater you encounter (;

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