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jeslieness · 4 years

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Thoughts on “Before the Falling”

Don’t get me wrong, Wiggleverse has my whole heart and I’m working on another small contribution to it. But I found @nixarim‘s epic about halfway through, devoured it all in one sitting, and eagerly snapped up every new installment. I’m very sad it’s over and if you haven’t read it, I highly encourage you to check it out on Instagram! I have some headcanony thoughts I was sharing on various entries, and they’ve been growing in my head till I needed to give them an outlet. This TED Talk will refer to stuff at the end of the comic, so beware of spoilers if you’re following me down the rabbit hole....

So! Lucifer. One of the cleverest bits of the comic, imo, is the revelation that Lucifer isn’t the ruler of hell, because if he raised an army and rose against heaven, why would he be punished by being...given an army? No, Lucifer is in an Escheresque prison, chained for eternity, and the giant red guy we see at Tadfield is actually an avatar of all the worst of Lucifer--all of the ugliness inside of him. Brilliant choice. I’ll be the first to admit that I’m not quite sure what Lucifer is, or how he became that way. He’s very arrogant and manipulative, capable of great cruelty, he seems to like to destroy things just so other beings can’t have them, and he does all of this with a veneer of charm. But every time I think “oh, he’s the first sociopath” he shows some other side of himself--some bit of regret, some hint of affection, something that indicates there’s another side to him, even if it’s underdeveloped, and I end up second-guessing myself. I don’t know if he was made with these flaws, or if the Ineffable Plan allowed for him to learn them along the way. However he got there, this is not a nice guy. The general wisdom is that Lucifer’s punishment is eternal. My headcanon is in a slightly different direction: the punishment is eternal only because Lucifer won’t let it be any other way. If he was willing to use the time to reflect and change, he would be released. But he hasn’t. Look at the scene where Crowley remembers visiting him in prison: all Lucifer asks is if they’re even. After years of imprisonment, he’s still thinking in terms of revenge and winning, not in terms of hurt and forgiveness. And why not? If he changed, he’d have to admit that he was wrong. And not only would that be a humiliation Lucifer is too proud to bear, it’s also a blow to his self-image he doesn’t know how to recover from. He’s the being who was unjustly thrown from Heaven, the rebel who was right all along. If that isn’t who he is--then who is he? What’s left of the Lucifer he’s always been? How does he become someone he doesn’t know how to be? (Hey, this is heaven we’re talking about. Is anyone actually surprised that their attempt at offering rehabilitation would be extremely ill-advised?) I’ve also subscribed to nixarim’s extracurricular (read: NSFW) gallery, and have commented there a few times that my headcanon is that these pictures are the things that Lucifer dreams of in prison, not only to pass the time, but to hold together that very self-image he needs to protect. Lucifer’s been deprived of an adoring audience, but not of the need to be powerful and admired, and to have what others cannot. So he lives in an elaborate fantasy world where he has all of these things. He didn’t love Crowley in heaven. I’m not entirely certain Lucifer is capable of love. But he’s certainly obsessed with Crowley, the one who got away, and I believe that Lucifer has convinced himself that his obsession is love. It’s certainly telling that he fantasizes endlessly about being with Crowley, and being met with tenderness, affection, and acceptance. He imagines Crowley being angry that they lost each other, and happy that they’ve been reunited. I don’t know how capable Lucifer is of softer feelings, but I think he wants them for himself and misses having them offered to him. The problem is that he can’t maintain that world forever. Reality intrudes; Real Crowley visits. Lucifer’s mind flickers and reminds him of how things really went. So as nixarim’s art has changed, I’ve thought of it as depicting the shifts in Lucifer’s mindset: that he’s altering his fantasy world to try to preserve it. Nixarim drew a very poignant sketch where Lucifer looks desperate and Crowley, to me, looks distant, as if even in Lucifer’s dreams Crowley is letting go. Thinking of the gallery as depictions of Lucifer’s dreams, it’s interesting to me that that drawing was followed, a short time later, by one of Lucifer literally chained to Crowley and saying he won’t let him go--and after that, an image of himself and Aziraphale being Crowley’s lovers. Lucifer can’t confront the reality that Crowley turned on him, or that Crowley and Aziraphale began to feel deeply enough for each other that they went to the extremes they did to protect and avenge each other. If Lucifer faces those things, he has to face the fact that he’s alone, and he’s no longer powerful, feared, and adored; he has nothing but time and loneliness and the promise of an end he can find only by giving up what he’s held onto for so long. It’s not even a conscious choice: if his mind tries to remind him of the truth, he fights back. A guest star is probably not the direction he wanted his fantasy world to take (Lucifer strikes me as the type who won’t share--though he probably has a different standard for himself), but it preserves the underlying need for power and control. In Lucifer’s world, Aziraphale becomes Crowley’s lover only on Lucifer’s terms. This is way longer than expected, but trying to figure out his psyche is so interesting to me. He’s a more complex character than I anticipated, and I do love to hate him--and unexpectedly, I feel a twinge of sympathy for him too. He did horrible things and the universe is safer with him in chains...but an eternity of solitary confinement is pretty horrible to think about, too.

#fandom meta #good omens

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unfortunate-stranger-losers · 5 years

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What are your headcannons for the kids from the four main All the Wrong Questions series?

oh geez there are so many

Lemony Snicket

Listen every character in the Snicketverse is autistic but Lemony? HIGH.KEY. This boy cannot stand sensory overload and also stims with verbal recitation.

After several months in Stain’d-by-the-Sea, the Associates got used to him just showing up and taking food. He eventually stopped asking, and then eventually stopped using the door. Moxie has, more than once, come downstairs to find him sitting on her counter eating cereal.

Beatrice snuck into town once to see how he was doing, saw him and Moxie trying to jump off the roof of the diner with a tablecloth parachute and Jake dragging them back and screaming, and she just turned right the fuck around and reported to their friends, “yeah he’s fine.”

Kit made him promise not to tell Jacques that she was almost in jail.

MODERN AU: Gets into twitter and tumblr fights with obvious trolls. Tried to call CPS on Theodora just to see what would happen. Can recite any “Unraveled” YouTube video on command. Has an extensive knowledge of Pokemon.

Moxie Mallahan

listen this girl is a lesbian in denial and she wrote Ellington Feint a note that said “get out of my town” because she didn’t know what else to do

She always kinda knew that her Mother was never coming back for her, but she didn’t admit it aloud until after Lemony left.

Moxie: I can eat ten marshmallows at once. Kellar: You are a hazard to yourself. Lemony: And a coward. Do twenty

Moxie knows how to pick every kind of lock, and how to break into every window. She takes her journalism very seriously and will get the truth even if she has to flip the world off as she does it.

MODERN AU: Blogger. Once spent a week straight putting together a project and then passed out for forty-eight hours. Still carries a typewriter with her everywhere. Had to physically stop Lemony from eating a tide pod.

Ellington Feint

Had literally no idea Lemony had a crush on her because she’s just that gay.

Actually popped up around town inbetween books constantly, mainly to chill with Cleo, Jake, the Bellerophons, and even Ornette. They just all neglected to mention this to Lemony.

She doesn’t remember anything about her mother. All she knows is what her father told her; that her mother used to make music boxes, loved coffee, and died in a fire.

Goes through a huge rebel/outlaw phase after escaping with Kit, because she’s completely lost and has no idea what to do or who to trust; her own father never gave a shit about her, as she now knows, so how could anyone care? Eventually she made her way back to Stain’d-by-the-Sea, where Moxie found her crying in the attic of Black Cat Coffee and awkwardly invited her to live in the lighthouse.

MODERN AU: Has been on the run from CPS for so fucking long. Quotes Gilmore Girls almost daily and will argue your ear off about why Rory/Paris should’ve been endgame. Once ate a tide pod. Cries while watching the Addams Family.

Kellar Haines

Even after the Train Incident, he basically lives with Moxie. He just can’t trust his Mom anymore, and while he claims otherwise, they didn’t really have a good relationship before then, either. Lizzie stays with him.

His special interest is in codemaking. He would’ve been really valuable to VFD if he’d gotten recruited. As is, Moxie kicks the ass of anyone who tries to kidnap him, so he’s fine.

He’s also super good at crafting, and can make really cool art projects whenever he has the time. Lizzie used to give him art supplies whenever she could, and still hangs his drawings on the lighthouse fridge.

He just gets so tired of his friends’ shit. He’d be a Mom Friend if he made any effort to stop them but as is he just kinda watches crap go down.

MODERN AU: Constantly goes to the movie theater just to chill. Addicted to YouTube. Is the only one of the squad not freaked out by the Watership Down movie. Asks existential questions at random to scare the squad and then immediately says “yeet” in a deadpan voice and throws Squeak across the room.

Pip and Squeak Bellerophon

They took over the taxi for their Dad when he fell ill. He died a few months later, and they kept claiming he was alive, in fear that they would get separated by whoever was in charge of their case. The only person they told is Jake, because he eventually followed them home to ask their Dad why the fuck he didn’t feed them and found that they were living alone, and Cleo, because Jake can’t keep secrets from her.

Pip and Squeak used to fight a lot, though they never intended any real harm. They slowly stopped after they started living alone, and Pip started kinda taking charge of keeping him and Squeak safe.

They used to be very tight with Qwerty, because they were constantly at the library. He suspected their situation, but never confirmed it and was alright just making sure the kids were okay. Squeak would sometimes climb on the bookshelves and knock them over, but thankfully Qwerty thought this was funny.

Squeak likes to “adopt” stray animals he finds in the backyard. Whenever he walks in going “gUESS WHO OUR NEW SIBLING IS,” Pip has to guess whether he’s going to bring in an injured baby bunny he can nurse back to health, or a squirrrel he just caught who is still struggling and about to destroy half the house.

MODERN AU: Pip has a Nintendo Switch that Squeak can only play Animal Crossing on. Squeak keeps posting photos on Instagram of him and Pip driving illegally but everyone thinks they’re edits. Squeak once very seriously told Pip that he would have to marry Jake so they could keep getting free food from him (before they found out he was dating Cleo). Have slept in library closets before and will again.

Cleo Knight

Identifies as Demi-bi. She and Jake met as preteens, when she wandered off and got lost, and went into the diner to use the phone and call Zada and Zora. Afterwards, she kept sneaking out to visit him.

Was much closer to Zada and Zora than her parents. She used to hang out in the kitchen with them, laying on the counter and practicing calculations or studying advanced chemistry while they cooked.

Also very very autistic. Can only eat certain things, because she has huge texture problems. Only Zada, Zora and Jake have ever gone out of their way to accommodate her without complaint.

Is incredibly reckless and never thinks anything through. While everyone knows she can take care of herself, it’s still nerve-wracking to see her run out the window, leaving only a note saying she’ll be back in three hours after trying to find a chemical, and coming back covered in blood that’s not her own.

MODERN AU: Was a Guardians of Ga’Hoole kid. Would exist on a diet of cheetos, cereal and sprite if not for her boyfriend. Once, Ornette helped her break out of the house to go to the movie theater to watch Lego Batman. Super into Stranger Things.

Jake Hix

Literally is the only reason the Associates are still alive. He gives them food and makes sure they don’t kill themselves doing some stupid reckless stuff.

Surprisingly, though, Cleo has had to physically stop him from fistfighting S Theodora Markson, who keeps forgetting to feed her fucking apprentice

Jake: As soon as I hit 18 I’m adopting you. Pip and Squeak, not even glancing over: Lit.

Has been in love with Cleo since they met. Since their relationship is technically “secret”, Hungry pretends not to notice, despite how increasingly obvious it gets. She knows she should technically discourage this, but he’s just. so in love. When he’s not working, he spends his time in him and Cleo’s garden.

MODERN AU: Has threatened to put parental locks on Lemony and Moxie’s phones multiple times. Keeps quoting The Princess Bride at Cleo, to the annoyance of the other Associates around them. Actually super into Doctor Who. Also keeps beating everyone’s ass in Mario Kart.

Ornette Lost

Has never once understood what was going on, but honestly she just rolls with it. “Guess we’re doing this now? Okay.”

Keeps bringing stray cats into her Uncles’ house and adopting them. She has twelve now. There is no stopping her.

Super close with Cleo and Jake. Mainly because she doesn’t mind third-wheeling, and will just fold origami when she gets bored, but also because she’s pretty good at dropping life advice and also is shockingly hilarious.

Lemony: Ornette. Why did the toaster blow up. Ornette: Hm?Lemony: Toaster. Blew up. Ornette: Oh. Yeah I blew it up Lemony: why Ornette: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

MODERN AU: Very into anime, especially Fullmetal Alchemist. Lives on ice cream. Has OPINIONS on the Disney Reboots. She got expelled from school because she graffitied GAY RIGHTS on the side of the building, and then a couple of middle fingers.

Lizzie Haines

INCREDIBLY protective of Kellar. She had more part in raising him than their mother; she was reluctant to leave him for her apprenticeship, but he convinced her he’d be fine.

Sharon was a huge perfectionist in regards to Lizzie’s talents and studies, so Lizzie always felt very distant from her. When she left for her apprenticeship, she ended up bonding with Sally Murphy, to the point where Lizzie saw her as more of a parent figure.

Lizzie noticed suspicious activity going on around town, and started investigating, even though Sally didn’t think anything was wrong. Lizzie had a conspiracy board and everything. She was kidnapped just as she was piecing everything together.

It took her quite a few months to break out, but once she did, she immediately went hardcore and figured out how best to knock people out and keep them away from her. She had a lot of trauma that emerged after the Train Incident, but Kellar got very good at figuring out how to calm her down.

MODERN AU: Hangs Christmas lights around her room and glowing stars on her ceiling. Knows more about Sonic the Hedgehog lore than the other Associates could ever understand. Huge Marvel/Star Wars fan. She has memorized all of Chicago, Hairspray, Black Panther, The Empire Strikes Back and Mamma Mia.

#all the wrong questions #atwq #lemony snicket #moxie mallahan #ellington feint #kellar haines #pip bellerophon #squeak bellerophon #cleo knight #jake hix #ornette lost #lizzie haines #stain'd associates #mine #ask #anonymous

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cienie-isengardu · 6 years

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Clones were bred for obedience

One of the most common things we are repeatedly told about clones is how obedient they are:

Lama Su: They are totally obedient, taking any order without question. We modified their genetic structure to make them less independent than the original host. [Attack of the Clones]

These were clone troopers sitting around him now - bred to war, bred to discipline, bred to obey without question the orders of the powers that paid for their services. [Jedi Trial]

A weapon they are. Obey orders without question for good or ill. For now they fight for us. Who is to say what the future holds? [ Star Wars Tales 22: Honor Bound]

At first [Ahsoka]’d thought the Republic’s clone soldiers welcomed battle because they had no choice - because they’d been genetically programmed to fight and not question that duty. [Gambit: Stealth]

Jango looked back at Boba, one of his thousands of children, but the only one who was a perfect clone, an exact replica with no genetic manipulation to make him more obedient. And the only one who hadn’t been artificially aged. The group that had been created beside Boba had all reached maturity now, were adult warriors, in perfect health. [Attack of the Clones by R. Salvatore]

“Maze, what are you going to do now?” Ordo asked.

“I’ve never disobeyed an order,” said the ARC captain. Zey didn’t seem to have the strength to turn and look at his former aide, just shutting his eyes as if he was waiting for the coup de grace. “What am I supposed to do? Pick and choose? That’s the irony. The Jedi thought we were excellent troops because we’re so disciplined and we obey orders, but when we obey all orders - and they’re lawful orders, remember - then we’ve betrayed them. Can’t have it both ways, General.” [Republic Commando: Order 66]

“Our safety resides in the fact that clones do obey – and they are trained to obey the Jedi. They respect us.” [Republic 81]

The “Obey without question” is repeated often. It’s point-blank common knowledge - for fans and characters in-universe. And here comes something that bother me since I digged seriously into Clone Wars era years ago:

Sources did not specify that clones were supposed to obey MILITARY orders, just that they were bred to obey - implicitly all - orders from those that paid for their creation.

The lack of distinction between obeying legit orders (like those on battlefield) and satisfying someone's whims easily leads to abuse. Right now I’m not even talking about physical or sexual abuse (what sadly can’t be excluded, because believe me, Star Wars has its dark and scary corners too) but about ill-considered words and its effect on troopers. An effect that people with power over clones (Jedi, military officers, politicians) may ever be unaware of.

I wonder do clones even know the difference between orders that as soldiers they must obey and those things that never should be demanded from them? Is there even a line between those two types that clones can draw for themselves? Or were they taught all orders, regardless of their nature and morality must be obeyed?

To show what I mean, here are few examples that struck me as potential abuse of power over clones:

Remember Attack of the Clones? More precisely, the Battle of Geonosis, when Padme fell out of the gunship along with clone. The trooper went to check if she is alright and suggested what they should do - but Padme already made her mind about the course of the action:

Clone: Are you all right?

Padme: Uh-huh.

Clone: We'd better get back to the forward command center.

Padme: No. No. Gather what troops you can. We've got to get to that hangar. Get a transport. Hurry!

Clone: Right away.

This scene always irks me. For one, military operation is going on right now, so Padme - the non combatant - shouldn’t giving anyone orders. She is educated person, someone who once took part in battle, so she should have the basic knowledge what is going on. Of course, Padme is doing so, because she is used to command other people; she is used that people listen to her, because she is former queen and senator, but this is not Republic ground nor a peaceful time for political negotiations. This is military operation and like in all armies, there is a structure of command and she is getting in the way of that. Like, what her presence in that hangar was gonna change, really?

Like, I get that she was worry about Anakin and/or wanted to end the war before it spread foor good. But because of her selfishness and arrogance(?), she literally put clone lives in danger. She didn’t have an idea what Yoda (then the supreme commander) planned nor what orders he gave to troopers. For all she knew, she could countermanding him, or contribute to the loss of an important defensive point because of her demand to take as many as possible troopers and at least one gunship.

I dunno but I think if “normal” trooper refused to listen her and drag her back to the safe(r) place (command center), it would be seen as rational thing to do. Partially, because Padme is important political figure thus her safety is on priority list and partially so the troopers could focus at the fight instead of worrying for their own AND her safety during battle. Padme’s presence was a burden to the soldiers; there is reason why civilians / politicians aren’t welcome on battlefields. Beside, people died to save her and Jedi, so Padme forcing clone to take her back into combat zone seems to be annoying, if not downright ungrateful.

Padme isn’t military commander. Her demands comes from selfish reasons, the delusion she knows better. The presence of politicians on battlefront always put pressure on soldiers and complications are to be expected when they interfere with military activities. At least some “normal-born” troopers wouldn’t listen (especially if they already had their orders from high command) or would argue with her and maybe even convince Padme to act more logically. Clone trooper, after his suggestion of the next course of action was cut down, says only Right away and carry on Padme’s orders.

I’m willing to cut some slack there, because Padme did not have any knowledge about obedience of clone troopers - or about clones in general, so she most likely assumed she is talking (ordering) to “normal” trooper, not a person genetically modified for obedience. We don’t know what she would do, if the trooper refused comply or came up with arguments against her idea. But that doesn’t change a fact that clone obeyed someone who wasn’t a Jedi, the designated commanders for clone army.

The next example comes from Jedi: Shaak Ti.

During battle, Shaak Ti (and saved by her Quilan Vos who worked undercover) joined forces with rebelling prisoners - for their help, she promised them freedom. There was a clone under the Jedi command. Through the first part of the story, he only talked to give Shaak Ti important informations / observations or to acknowledge given to him orders. Nothing beyond that. No personal stuff about himself, no jokes, no rude comments (like Alpha A-17 did in other comics). Because of mission goal, the group separated ways.

“Try not talk so much” is sarcastic remark for sure. Yet we see clone to acknowledge it. Roger; your message has been received and understood.

The comics did not focus so much at clone trooper’s part of mission - when he is fighting agains enemy, there is no smart/cool one-lined dialogue so it’s hard if the “order” of ex-prisoner meant anything at all, but if not, why this scene was included?

The clone trooper spoke for the last time before his death, when heavily injured blew up himself with shield generator. Frankly, I suspect his talk was more for readers to understand what he is doing that clone’s need to speak

The third example comes from Republic: 82

General Vos did not like clones (x), and it wasn’t any secret for the troopers nor other Jedi. His second in command was commander Faie, one of the by-the-book type of troopers. Through the Hidden Enemy comics arc, both men “argued” quite often. Faie kept reminding his general about orders and procedures, what Vos did not take good. Vos even was sarcastic / rude (X).

When Faie learned that Wookie know about Hyperspace route unknown to Republic - something that Wookie didn’t want to share - he insisted to report it in accordance with applicable procedures. Vos gave the clone direct order:

“This a direct order, commander -- you will say nothing for the time being. As you yourself have told me -- clones don’t make policy. They just carry out orders. Carry out mine. Are we clear?”

Faie marched away in silence - the next time, Vos and Faie were seen together on another mission and the commander was shown as verbally acknowledging given military order(s). It’s hard to tell how much time passed between one and another scene or did Faie talk with anyone else out of Jedi’s sight When Order 66 comes, there is visible change in Faie’s behaviour toward Vos - now officially marked as traitor, thus an enemy who doesn’t have any power over the clone and the commander was determined to destroy Jedi, and even the Wookies.

Another example comes from TCW: In Service of the Republic,

The story showed in comics happened in first year of war. Jedi masters Kit Fisto and Ploo Koon went on mission, while Ozzel and clone commander Wolffe were supposed to wait for orders from Jedi. Except Ozzel decided to do things on his own what didn’t end to well for his squads. He and clones were captured by Asajj - to save his own life, he told Asajj about Jedi mission. After he and clones get transported to cell, the troopers started working on escape plan while Ozzel kept talking how he didn’t have a choice.

Wolffe: No. You did it to save your life. And now, thanks to you, the generals and our brothers are in greater danger. If their mission fails, this entire campaign was for nothing.

Ozzel: Mind your place, trooper.

The moment when clone trooper started openly criticizing his “natural born” commander, Ozzel cut down that with one sentence - mind your place, trooper.

Through the story, Wolffe had passive-agressive way to communicate with Ozzel but he dropped the subject after Ozzel’s remark. Of course, star wars have many scenes when officers are reminding troopers about their place - nothing new. Like Hondo with Poe in The Last Jedi. The difference is that clone troopers are much easier to silence - once told to shut up, they follow the “order” because what else they could do? In contrast to Poe, who decided to take situation under control to the point of mutiny against vice-admiral Hondo.

The next example is general Krell from The Clone Wars Umbara Arc, who treated badly the clones due to his own negative feelings about them. From the show we know that Krell fell to Dark Side and wanted to join Dooku, thus he was far away from what Jedi should be. He called Rex and clones by numbers only, he put them deliberately in dangerous situations, he forced clones to march without resting for 12 hours (and after that to fight), which most likely led the soldiers to extreme exhaustion and all he need to cut down Rex’s protest or caution was to say: That is my order. And you will follow it explicitly. [TCW s04e07]. Rex at some point refused to do as he was told during battle; since the same episode gave us clue that Rex was once more by-the-book type of clone (wound tight, like Dogma) I think the captain’s less strictly way to follow (bad) orders may partially comes from experiences gained while serving under Skywalker. And we all know that Anakin firmly believe in loyalty, the same as Rex ("As sure as it is my duty to remain loyal to your command, I also have another duty. To protect those men.”). I guess, under whom clones served had a big effect on their idea of (blind) obedience. Even Krell pointed out that Rex is used to serving Jedi (Skywalker) who commands in a different (less rigid, less formal) way - a command style that most likely affected to some degree all members of 501st Legion.

The moment when Krell turned out to be traitor to Republic, clone troopers did what they could to stop him. But up to this point, clones were dehumanized by him, insulted, pushed to physical and mental exhaustion and forced to obey, because it was their duty to follow orders.

The way clones were silenced by their not-willing to listen commanders is disturbing. I mean, in ANH even Darth Vader listened to his subordinate, Commnader Daine Jir who not only questioned his plan but also refuse to shut up even after the Dark Lord explains himself. There is some heavy irony that Lord of the Sith was willing to listen arguments / complaints of his trooper(s) even when he was not going change his mind than some Jedi and Republic (”natural born”) officers ever bothered to do.

Since I already talked a bit how people in power who didn’t like clones could silent them or take away their right to names - the hard won humanity - on whim, if they feel like doing so. One order and clone troopers obeyed. In case of Krell, everyone knew how many clones died under his command, but his fall to Dark Side was unseen by other Jedi. What rises question, did anyone even bother to check is someone with power over clones is not abusing them?

Now, here comes another example:

Jusik stopped at a door at the end of the passage and turned to them."I wonder if I could ask the rest of you to remove your helmets."

Nobody asked why, and they all obeyed, even though it wasn't phrased as the unequivocal order they were expecting. The helmet seals made faint ssss sounds as they opened. [Republic Commando: Hard Contact]

The events of the book took place soon after Clone Wars begun. Padawan Jusik barely wondered if he could ask them to remove helmets. It wasn’t order, more like asking for permission, for assurance it’s okay to ask for that. Yet clones obeyed, because the Jedi wanted them to remove helmets, even if he didn’t phrase that as direct order. The clone commandos were expecting to hear orders, because they were bred to follow them. Jedi (Republic) paid for army to order, after all.

The clone troopers in the first stage of war may be pretty clueless about the difference between being asked and ordered. In “Triple Zero” there is another example to wonder about:

"Excellent," Ordo said aloud. The clone trooper jumped to his feet and saluted, even though it was technically a poor example of protocol to do so without his helmet in place. Ordo returned the salute anyway. "Problem with your helmet, trooper?" The man lowered his voice. "It makes the civilians edgy, sir. They prefer to see my eyes." Ordo bristled. He would never defer to civilians' whims.

Okay, so for clone troopers their helmets provide not only protection during battle but also psychological comfort. Being cut away from the world, with no one to see your emotions, to hear your complains or curse, the inside of helmet is like one of few really safe spaces for clones. Corr lost his hand on the line in duty, while waiting for proper prosthesis he was forced to work with civilians, as a help in office, or something like that. One clone between “normal” people. We don’t know if he voluntarily gave up wearing a helmet, if he was given subtle to understand that people are annoyed by the view of the faceless helmet or if he was just ordered to do so. Ordo, a Null class clone (similar to ARC) is less obedient than common troopers like Corr. The whole situation in which clone can’t wear his own helmet (and using the safe space at will) didn’t sit well with Ordo. In his mind, it’s civilians whim yet Corr either was forced due to direct order or took civilians “suggestion” as something he shouldn’t argue with regardless how Corr felt about that.

(This was just about helmet, something that civilians didn’t understand. Bbut what if someone was curious about sex with clones? Would clone obeyed, if the person - especially in position of power - actually told (ordered) trooper to comply to his/her/their wishes?)

I’m pretty sure there is more examples of scenes like that. I showed the obedience with dubious military orders, often with deliberately silencing or even abusing of clones and even the at first sight harmless “civilians whims” like putting pressure or straighly not allowing clones to use their own helmets. In some of cases, this is more ignorance of “natural born” people but clone troopers, in particular shortly after Battle of Geonosis were group at risk of abuse. From Jedi, from republic officers, from civilians. Especially when no one is interested in their well being, when they are seen just as equipment than human beings.

So, are clones aware that there are things no one should ask of them - especially anything going against their bodily invulnerability? Did anyone told them they could and should draw a line between military orders and someone’s selfish whim? I kinda doubt that, but then again, a lot may depends on who trained them or under whom they served.

I’m really disturbed by the obiedence of clones and how it was taken as granted not only by Jedi, but by everyone.

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