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mechecolomar-archive · 4 years

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genuinely curious: do you think that the depictions of homophobic abuse and violence towards lgbt characters in tlou2 outweighs the portrayal of their other experiences and happy moments of love/self expression? is it bad representation if the lgbt characters go through strife and pain as well as being happy and allowed to express themselves? i feel like there are valid criticisms to be made, but views on lgbt rep tend to be pretty polarized, either "it's great" or "it's bad" with no nuance

I think a big issue I have with the characters and representation specifically in The Last of Us 2 is that in the game the characters feel like they were created solely to serve a point in the plot, the game’s tone is progressively bleak (and the violence is gratuitous), and the inclusion of bigotry also felt unnecessary.

As a disclaimer, I’m not saying tlou2, Naughtydog, or even Neil Druckmann is simply homophobic because the gay character gets in fights and all that, but for me personally I felt that the treatment of lgbt characters in the game made me uncomfortable and wasn't satisfying. I’m glad they weren't outright stereotypes, but I’d like it if there was a bit kinder treatment of these characters. It just really feels like nd heard they didn’t do diversity well in the first game and just threw in a bunch of poc and lgbt characters without really thinking... I don’t think what happens is homophobic, but it feels very thoughtless.

The characters in tlou2 are not well done, I’m not sure what happened between The Last of Us and tlou2, but they do not feel the same at all. Every character in the game feels very weak and the player themselves cant name 10 facts about each one, even characters like Abby or Dina (I’m excluding Ellie and Joel because they already existed). This applies the most to Jessie imo, but I’ll only discuss Ellie, Dina, and Lev since they are the lgbt characters in the game. in tlou2 Ellie is just the vengeful character and as Neil put it, “the villain.” tlou2 could have been a wonderful opportunity to add more to her story, but here she’s basically just the traumatized girl who likes girls and is playing the guitar to remember Joel. Dina is basically the player’s partner who is randomly benched halfway through and from a narrative point she is something that Ellie can lose, you learn she has some ability with tinkering, she is Jewish, bi, has a sister... and not much else. Finally Lev feels like the main justification to sympathize with Abby, without Abby he is introduced literally being hunted because he is trans. Every character in the game is like this, but with these three very prominent characters, it’s disappointing.

Next, for tlou2 the violence seems to be double what happened in tlou, being much more detailed and forcing you to look at what is happening (Ellie getting her face smashed in and Abby threatening to kill Dina and its good because she is pregnant). Tlou was able to thread the needle concerning this successfully; having Ellie being kidnapped, hunted, and almost being sexually assaulted to immediately having the famous scene where Joel and Ellie pet giraffes. Tlou also (to my knowledge) did not have those shock value moments 2 constantly has, and when there is violence its rarely explicitly shown. Now in tlou2 this is almost the opposite, instead of going back and forth between intense and calm scenes, the sequel seems to steadily go downhill in tone. I know that these specific characters arent being hurt BECAUSE they’re lgbt, but its still not good to see.

The happiest moments are the beginning with Dina and Ellie, but while they're having fun and making out together what’s happening? Joel is currently getting his face caved in by Abby. Halfway through the game after Ellie and Dina are beaten, it seems to go back up in tone, but ooc tommy forces Ellie to turn back to revenge and the whole thing comes crashing back down. “I’m afraid of ending up alone” Ellie chooses to leave Dina and Ellie’s life is now hell going all the way back to Abby. After all this Ellie comes back to their house but her family is no longer there. Ellie is alone. I have a huge issue with the ending and it’s that you are explicitly shown that everything there is sad. Nd doesn't make “letting go” of Joel a relief, and they don’t show any implication of Ellie reuniting with Dina. Our lesbian protagonist is now living her worst fear, even though she did the “right” thing and spared Abby. Lev’s ending is clearly better because he’s affiliated with Abby, but it doesn’t change that throughout the story he’s repeatedly hurt and has a similar fall to Ellie after Abby thinks she finds the fireflies, he is never explicitly shown recovering from being made a literal slave and almost crucified.

My last issue is that the bigotry is entirely uncalled for, especially in a world that is as already violent as they’ve made tlou2. One of the most striking moments to me in tlou2 is Dina saying, “What’s this” referring to lgbt flags, indicating she has no concept of pride for being bisexual. Ellie also has no clue and they joke about the erotica and thats the end of that. Later Ellie is called a slur. The man who does it isnt exactly punished and Ellie is forced to make up with him later. That scene and the scene at the end somehow included Ellie, but clearly were about Joel. The last flashback is used as a tragic “Ellie could have forgiven Joel but he was killed :(” scene, there’s very little focus about her sexuality positively. Ellie and Dina are also never openly gay, the one time they are (in a room full of maybe 50 people) Ellie is called a d*ke. Ellie’s previous gf is scrapped except for subtle concept art and notes and she only has one conversation in the beginning mentioning a her.

Then on the opposite side of characters, Lev’s entire story outside of and before Abby is being hunted simply because he is trans. He’s deadnamed multiple times and even Abby cluelessly says it (??). There’s endless reasons why he could have been hunted (hell, just simply wanting to leave the cult because theyre so violent), but nd went with this... for some reason. Him being trans is also never discussed in a positive way other than Abby’s weird attempt to make him feel better by giving him a toy (”Hey, I know your group you grew up with and family literally wants you dead, but uh, would a toy help?”). Lev THEN goes BACK to the people who wants him dead, and we’re shown that his mother has viciously attacked him and he accidentally kills her due to this. Him being trans is never mentioned again... I don’t think we have to exactly hide homophobia in fiction, but I personally do not play a game to get called a slur, I can find that irl. Also if these things were to be included, they could have at least shown comfort after, but they don’t. The scenes are simply more shocking violence and are never mentioned again, simply skipped over. Nd used these characters being lgbt as an excuse for them to be discriminated against for it instead of anything positive.

Their advertising of Ellie kissing a girl in 2018 and in 2020 having her be called a slur instantly after what was shown to us is just SO jarring... Nd and their stans like to say, “Well if you don’t like The Last of Us 2, you’re just homophobic.” but that’s honestly so ridiculous. There simply can’t be more instances of oppression than acceptance and think you're doing something good?? Revealing Lev’s deadname gives people an opportunity to be transphobic, having Ellie be called a slur and lash out at Joel after gives people a reason to be angry at her there. You simply can’t include these things if it can do the opposite thing that you want. The point of including minorities in fiction should be so people can related and identify with these characters, not as some virtual reminder that people will hate you specifically for these reasons. It should not be too much to ask for a character you are like to be treated well and nd not listening to fans critique the game is sad,

I suppose I appreciate the attempt at inclusion, but it feels like a failed one that I preferred would not have happened, or at least had been strongly corrected. It would have been different if maybe Ellie had reunited with Dina apologizing, Abby telling Lev she supports him, Joel saying he loves Ellie, or even Dina and Ellie talking about being gay in some way thats anything other than making out and calling each other “babe”, but idk... that didn’t happen. Dina and Ellie are clearly supposed to be the main rep, but I feel like they really missed things they could have mentioned. This rep really reminds me of Life is Strange, but I can’t decide if dying or ending up alone and depressed at the end is worse. I’m probably missing more things but yeah... It would be cool if my lesbian protagonist did not have to be traumatized for an overdone, useless story.

#ask #anon #Anonymous #tlou2 critical #long post #i didnt specifically answer ur questions just because they sound kinda... biased i guess #thats probably not the correct word but ya kno #i could be misinterpreting that but thats the vibe #like its a political question fjdsfkjds #i have more thoughts abt the game overall in my tag but yeah #i feel like left behind was better lgbt rep (and even then i still dont like riley dying)#personal

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theskyexists · 5 years

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Ah and the director was asked about both fridging and bury your gays and was like: we're gonna do what's best for the story.

I.e. Dina's dead.

In a way, thinking about it, maybe they aren't such good storytellers after all.

Tlou was so impactful because you were keeping Ellie safe as the goal - you were a protector, you were building a bond. There was a beautiful historical symmetry, and an AMAZING development in your relationship. (And an amazing traumatic ending)

Tlou2 seems to have Ellie lone wolf half of it, brings back a person I don't know how she can go forward with, in order to -? Kill an unknown amount of people out of revenge?

I felt bad about all the killing of those hyperrealistic cannibal robber murderers in tlou already - but the justification was that they'd kill ME and we wanted to survive and had a higher purpose.

But now we're deliberately going out to just murder a bunch of people? Alone? Or followed by possibly overbearing, old and more decrepit dad? (How's that gameplay going to turn out? What will his AI have him do...? Same as little Ellie in tlou? No damage can be done to him?).

That's throwing out the magic formula and baking a very shitty storytelling cake...

Are they really gonna make the grief and pain and anger so intense that it's going to convince me that me murdering a 1000 people I've never even met is the best option? That's gonna be tough. And you're not convincing me by killing off the bisexual girl Ellie's in love with. Oh there's a cult that sacrifices people? Right. Well the world is fucked up and why should I, myself, kill em all? Because I'm angry? Ok.

No higher purpose. No protecting. No defensive survival. No building a bond. No historical symmetry (unless they really push for an Ellie/Joel role reversal - but then Joel would just drag Ellie down and that wouldn't fit).

I don't think tlou2 is going to be particularly good on story....

#after all #tlou #my stuff #personal

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