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lordgolden · 8 months

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I AM Y E L L I N G !!!!! HER SMILE AND NYNAEVE LMAOOOO

#sarah watches wot #wot on prime #wot show spoilers #wheel of time #2x07 daes dae'mar

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ebro-devoo · 8 months

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After having some time to reflect on 2x07, I think Siuan’s actions were justified and somewhat sympathetic given the information she knew. First off, Lan came to Siuan and told her that moraine have been deliberately withholding essential information from her (the fact that she was stilled ) and was threatening to pass Lans bond which both indicated that Moraine was not in a good place mentally or physically to complete their mission (train and protect Rand/the world from Ran).

Now cut to when she meets with Ran. While we as viewers know that Ran is not evil or mad yet, from her perspective he is a nuclear bomb that could either become evil or go mad in the process of saving the world. The last dragon literally killed a ton of people and destroyed the world, and as the head of the “servants of all” it’s Siuan’s job to protect the world from Rand, and so when she sees that Moraine has no power to control him if he starts to go insane and has failed to teach him anything, she makes the decision to shield/control him, which in her mind is what’s best for the safety of the world. While we know it’s the wrong choice, I don’t think this is anything like the Seanchan who literally enslave an entire group of people while I think of the dragon more as the trolley problem (sacrifice the one to save the many).

Then in the final confrontation with Moraine and Lanfear, I think her confusion and perceived betrayal from Moraine dictates most of her actions. First she finds out that Moraine and Verrin tricked Leanne into letting them escape, then arrives at the way gate to see that Moraine has channeled, meaning that she lied about being stilled making Siuan think that she could be a darkfriend. While the using of the oath was awful and definitely violating, I don’t think Siuan felt as if she had any choice because she wasn’t going to let a suspected dark friend walk away with the dragon reborn. You could also see on her face afterwords how broken she felt in that moment.

Anyways, I think both Siuan and Moraine were trying to do what they thought was right and neither of them are villains and that’s what made this episode so hard to watch.

#wot show spoilers #wot s2 #wot on prime #wot liveblog #wot #wheel of time #the wheel of time #2x07 #moraine damodred #moraine sedai #siuan sanche #moiraine x siuan #siuanraine

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pandemoniumonwheels · 8 months

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The first meeting between Moiraine and Siuan is so cold. I don't have a better word for it, but look at how the only warm and caring gesture in it is used to stress how Siuan needs to meet Rand al'Thor. Everything went wrong there. I can't help but feel Siuan came to Cairhien to release Moiraine from her duties. And Moiraine knows that. As much as Siuan cares about Moiraine, her inability to channel makes her unable to perform the task at hand. "I've let you carry this burden for 20 years, love. You've given everything for it." That's just a polite way to say "you're fired". Siuan simply left her feelings in the carriage and invited Moiraine to inform her of the retirement. The sad part is, they were supposed to retire together. But even that was taken from them.

#wheel of time #wot on prime #wot show #moiraine damodred #siuan sanche #s02e07 #2x07 #moiraine sedai #thinking about it as moiraine being fired #makes it somehow better #but maybe that's just me

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myfanwy-thomas · 8 months

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I get the frustration around siuan but ultimately it comes down to this - do you trust the writers and the showrunners? Do you trust them to address it, to explain and to expand?

Time again in this season specifically they’ve left cliffhangers and explained things in later episodes, or even addressed things from season 1 to clarify. (Hell tons of people were losing their minds about moraine being ‘stilled’ and now we have an answer to that in which the seeds were lain throughout the season. This also happens frequently in the books)

Whether it’s compulsion (seeds were lain by sheriam), daes deamar (seeds lain by moraine and anvaere), lanfear or Ishamael in her dreams attempting to create a schism between rand and the aes sedai or something else entirely, do you really think that the showrunners will never mention it again or do you think this will be a major plot point next season?

I am choosing patience. While there have been issues surrounding siuan and her plot lines - many I suspect are due to lack of availability for Sophie okenendo - and there has been significantly less screen time than there was in the book, we already know they are filming in the white tower next season and we know Sophie is there.

I suspect there will be an explanation for siuan’s behaviour and honestly it might not be one that matches the book, but they are not going to just leave things as they are.

There have been blips, I agree, but overall the writers and show runners have given me no reason not to trust them so I’m going to remain positive and do just that

#wheel of time #wot show spoilers #wot book spoilers #the wheel of time #siuan sanche #the wheel of time show spoilers #2x07 spoilers #the wheel of time book spoilers

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lordgolden · 8 months

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LMFAOOO NOT MAT SAYING THIS TO **THEE** ISHAMAEL

#sarah watches wot #wot on prime #wot show spoilers #wheel of time #2x07 daes dae'mar

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bloodyawfulfishwife · 2 months

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Sometimes the ending of 2x07 hits me out of nowhere and the next thing I know is me trying to process it all over again 🫡

#the wheel of time #im still recovering from 2x07 #fishwives #moiraine damodred #siuan sanche #moiraine x siuan #wot on prime

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tiredmoonslut · 7 months

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The fish wives are fine! Either that ending did not happen or it was all a planned thing for everyone to get stuck in THEIR nets. Whatever. Those are the only 2 options.

Still in all seriousness it was a planned thing between Moiraine and Siuan IMO for too many reasons. The delusion is real

Oh I have no doubt they'll be alright, nonny! Rafe Judkins is smart enough to know that if he was going to canonize Siuanraine, we wouldn't accept its mishandling. We're gonna be fine.

Personally though I do think that conflict was real, not planned. Of course, I do love the idea of them orchestrating a fake falling out! But it just doesn't peg me as something that wins them anything.

I think Siuan is so used to her and Moiraine being in agreement about how to handle the Dragon prophecies that she truly didn't expect for Moiraine to go rogue. The way I see it, Siuan sees two things: for one, Mo has been stilled. That is agony no matter how you slice it, and she's deadset on taking as much of the Dragon burden off of Moiraine's shoulders as she can so Mo has more of a chance to heal (remember, there's been a whopping two Aes Sedai who ever managed not to kill themselves after being stilled in the Tower's known history).

Secondly, she sees that the time of the Last Battle draws near, and Moiraine has been withholding information for the past six months and also very pointedly not tried to prepare Rand at all. Siuan is the Amyrlin Seat. She's made of strategy, and that is a bad one, whether it was her lover's choice or not. I think Siuan was certain that if she made a point of taking the burden off Moiraine's shoulders, she'd be met with acquiescence---perhaps even appreciation.

Watching the episode, I took Siuan's reaction to Rand having been released to be one of complete shock. I'm sure she expected stubbornness, but not outright double-crossing. That's why she made a point of chasing after them alone, with no guard. She felt betrayed.

Then she runs in to see Moiraine channeling. I'm sure she was floored, and this is why I think the theory that she suspected Moiraine of joining the Dark to hold weight. I mean, how bizarre from her perspective. Six months of correspondence, and Rand hasn't been trained even a little, and this alleged stilling was kept from her completely until Lan tattle-taled. That's outrageous, especially since it doesn't seem like Moiraine has ever been that dishonest with her before. And now it was apparently a complete lie? It shouldn't be possible. Unless of course Moiraine made an oath that supersedes her previous ones...

Which is why she forced her to close the Waygate. Twas a test. Once Moiraine obeys, you can see just how much Siuan regretted doing it. Her eyes well up immediately, like all she wants to do is apologize. Had Lanfear not walked in that very second, I'm sure she would have.

So, we'll just have to see how Siuan feels once she hears about the events of Falme, that Ishamael is dead, and that Alanna and Verin were Mo's accomplices. Hopefully she reacts well, or at least well enough to still want to talk it out with Moiraine when she gets the chance---and I think she will. This has been the burden that's ruined their lives for 20 years. She's not just gonna let that go.

So yeah, we'll be okay. We're just gonna need some medicine, perhaps an emergency operation. 😭

#siuanraine #asks #wheel of time #the wheel of time #wot on prime #wot on prime spoilers #moiraine damodred #moiraine sedai #siuan sanche #wot 2x07 #daes dae'mar #something else I just realized is that she tossed Lan like a sack of flour #she wouldn't have been able to do that had she not thought him a Darkfriend #so there's more proof

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shutupineedtothink · 7 months

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I finally landed on a Siuan theory/analysis re: 2x07! And it works prettyyyy good if I do say so myself. At the least it’s plausible. Probably. No book spoilers because I haven’t read the books, this is a show only theory. Read on at your own risk!

Background: So, at first I was on board the “Moiraine and Siuan planned this whole thing daes dae’mar blah blah blah” train. Mostly in my emotional turmoil after watching the episode initially. But, I was forced to dismiss that pretty quickly in light of some of Siuan’s lines, namely “That boy must not leave this city.” And “You lied to me.” She has to believe both of those things are truths to say them, so her somehow being secretly on Moiraine’s side still and them having conjured up some plan together doesn’t match up with either of those lines. Sadly. So that’s pretty much out. If this ends up actually being the case, I look forward to how they explain themselves out of it.

Second theory is of course that it’s playing exactly as we’re seeing it, which ultimately does work and when I can take the emotional dagger to my heart out of it, is objectively really excellent storytelling and character work. These are two women, trying to do the right thing, trying to save the world, and their love is sacrificed at the altar of duty. Duty over love is a theme that’s absolutely pounded into us with many characters, so it makes sense. (As Lan points out to Rand also in this episode, “you were born to protect this whole world, not just the people you love.” That’s kinda where Siuan and Moiraine are at too.) Plus I love the idea that Siuan comes face to face with the very real if unfathomable possibility that Moiraine has been turned to the dark based on her actions and general cageyness for the last six months, and that’s really what motivates every choice Siuan makes, up to and including invoking the oath rod. Really great stuff, brilliant subtext, two thumbs up.

However. There is a third option. *rubs hands together gleefully*

I heard some people saying Siuan could be under Compulsion, which definitely piqued my interest, because we’ve had those breadcrumbs dropped earlier in the season already and it would be nice foreshadowing for this. But most of the conversation I’ve seen seems to be around Liandrin being the one to do it. Probably because we’ve alluded to that already this season, so we know she is capable and has done it before. A tool in her dark friend toolkit, if you will.

But Liandrin being behind it never sat quite right with me either. Compelling Sheriam to change some logbook is one thing, but controlling the Amyrlin seat, for hours if not days to make this happen, is quite another. Idk what kind of strength Compulsion requires, but I bet it’s not nothing. And as powerful as Liandrin is, I don’t think she’s stronger than Siuan Sanche, or would be able to pull one over on her fast enough to make this happen. Plus, Liandrin is off doing other shit in this episode. If she was really implicated I feel like she’d be at least lurking around the other Aes Sedai. Maybe I’m wrong… but I don’t think I am lol.

So, who does have the power to do this? Who else has the means, motive, and opportunity to make this happen? There’s really only one other person.

The other scene stealer of 2x07, ya girl Lanfear.

There’s several bits of dialogue in this episode that back this theory up, both Compulsion in general and Lanfear being behind it, so let’s run from the top.

First, some general evidence that Compulsion might be happening.

Rand and Siuan meet, Rand gives his cute little introduction, Lan has prepared you I see, what else has he told you about me? Then Rand gives this line:

“That you’re not exactly what you seem.”

Interesting choice of words, writers— I mean Rand. He could have said a lot of things there, even directly repeating some of what Lan told him about Siuan, but no. And if you’re already thinking Compulsion, that’s a pretty strong nudge from the writers to PAY ATTENTION to Siuan Sanche, because maybe what she’s doing is not what it seems, even the person she IS in that moment is not what it seems. (Even if the surface level read totally makes sense and still works thematically!) This also wouldn’t be the first time that the writers seem to use the characters to say something/poke fun that’s more directed at us than the actual plot. So I definitely wouldn’t put it past ‘em.

Second, and this is kind of a throw away, but when Moiraine and Lan come in later, Lan says “this isn’t what we agreed to.” This is pretty easy to explain away, but I think it’s still notable that Lan and Siuan had some kind of conversation earlier, perhaps on their way to Cairhien, about what they were going to do in regards to Moiraine and/or Rand. And at that point Siuan at least implied that she was going to help Moiraine and Rand, not cage him. Again, pretty easy to sidestep with aes sedai truth-lies/evasions, but it’s also possible at that point she actually had no intention to cage Rand. Because she wasn’t under Compulsion yet.

Alright, still going in chronological order here, so now we’re getting into some Lanfear-did-it specifics. And I do love-hate this one.

Moiraine and Siuan are arguing over what to do about Rand, then this:

Siuan: “Can you imagine, Moiraine, if one of the forsaken got their hands on him?”

Can YOU imagine, how absolutely giddy it would make Lanfear to make her say this, to Moiraine’s FACE, knowing full well she’s got her hands all over Rand and then some? Come on, son.

Ok jokes aside, here’s the kicker.

Rand and Moiraine in the cell in the sun palace, Rand meets Lanfear in the dream world, Rand goes up to her and says “I’m in a cell, the Amyrlin’s holding me.”

And Lanfear says, so smug, “I know.”

Um, girl? You know?? HOW do you know exactly? I definitely dismissed this on the first couple watches as oh, Lanfear just knows things, but like, no. The Forsaken aren’t omniscient. Now, could she be teleporting herself here and there and spying on everything that’s going on and that’s why she knows? Sure. But that’s boring and I’m on a roll here so let’s keep going.

She knows, not just that Rand is in a cell but specifically that it’s the Amyrlin that’s holding him there, because she herself Compelled (Compulsed?) Siuan to do so.

Ok so motive. Why would Lanfear do this, why spend the effort?

1. It's definitely fun for her. 2. She sets up this scenario where she gets to “save” Rand from the big bad aes sedai, he has no choice but to ask her for help, she LITERALLY shows up in her white knight in shining armor outfit, and she ultimately hopes this helps convince him she actually cares about him and wins him over to her side. (As she tries to tell him in the finale, I’m the only one who cares about YOU, not just what you can do. Mhm sure girl.) And 3. She gets to actively pit the rest of the aes sedai against Moiraine, who she absolutely hates.

And in doing all of this SHE MIGHT NOT EVEN HAVE KNOWN about Moiraine and Siuan! That's just icing on the fucking cake! It works either way, because if she did know by forcing Siuan to tell her about their mission and she somehow gets Siuan to admit she loves Moiraine (however that interrogation goes, idk the specifics of compulsion but the show writers are playing fast and loose with the rules anyway), well now it’s game on baby because Lanfear will absolutely be using that info to wreck both of them. If she didn’t know, and her whole motivation is the first three reasons above, then she definitely finds out at the end of 2x07, because she was definitely lurking around the corner listening to that whole exchange between them and it made her fucking night.

And finally, there’s Lanfear’s last line of the episode (I think): “Lucky for you, a broken Amyrlin is more useful to me than a dead one.” Double meaning alert! Siuan is literally lying broken on the ground in that moment, but maybe she was already “broken” well before that, being under Lanfear’s control. (And there’s your Egwene/damane parallel too, damn.) And therefore Lanfear knows exactly how she’ll be “useful” to her.

This whole strategy by Lanfear could also be forecasted from a couple episodes back, when she asks Ishamael why he didn’t just kill Moiraine at the Eye. He basically tells her the same thing, that Moiraine (I believe he uses the words “aes sedai” specifically) is more useful to him alive than dead. So mayyyybe that gave her this idea to manipulate an aes sedai for her purposes, except while Ishamael is playing the long game, she goes full tilt and mind controls the fucking amyrlin seat.

On Siuan’s side of things, every bit of dialogue she has/action she takes makes sense under the assumption that Lanfear is influencing her, because she would “believe” everything she’s doing. Now I don’t know exactly how Compulsion works (in case you couldn’t tell), if it’s like someone else actually making you believe/do things you wouldn’t normally do, or if it’s more of a you’re trapped in your own head and not in control of your body sort of situation, but it works either way. And boy let me tell you, if this theory is correct, that makes Sophie Okenedo’s performance even more impressive than it already is, because it really works either way: Siuan is genuinely doing what she believes is right for the fate of the world and has her stone cold face on to do it (until the very end) OR her “real” expressions/feelings are mostly being masked/faked by the Compulsion and what she’s being forced to do by Lanfear. It tracks! Either way! Insane!!

The other big reason I think this theory works is because of what we find out in the finale — we learn from her conversations with Bayle Domon and Ishamael that Lanfear has been pulling the strings to make this whole season happen all along. (Cue It Was Lanfear All Along music lol). She sold the bits of cuendillar (although I don’t really get why… just for the money?), she seduced Rand, she played Ishamael, all of it. So why not this too? Why not control the Amyrlin seat, if she has the capability and means to do so, especially if she means to take Ishamael off the board and sort of become the de facto leader/strongest of the forsaken. Not really their leader, I know, but it’s a good power play for her is what I’m saying.

Finally, I think this could put us in a REALLY fun place for season 3, with stuff happening at the tower. We could have scenes with Lanfear, Siuan, and Liandrin. We could have Siuan acting increasingly more malevolent or just off somehow, and while most sisters are going with it, Alanna or Leane maybe starts to get suspicious (more Leane please!). We could have Moiraine send the wonder girls back to the tower, ostensibly to continue their training but also because she needs informants to know what Siuan is planning now (which kills her obvs), and because I would love to see them Scooby doo their way through some shit, the three of them figure out what’s going on and somehow (with Alanna’s help?) free Siuan from the Compulsion. Idk but it could be so much fun you guys.

Or, I could be totally wrong. Maybe this is totally not how Compulsion works. I don’t mind either way. This was a super fun thought experiment. But man, if this theory is in any way correct, this will be some of the most twisty TV/dialogue writing I’ve seen in a minute. And, you know, I’m trying to make fishwives happen here! Cmon!

Shout out to the Post Show Recaps podcast deep dive of 2x07 for questioning how Lanfear knew that Siuan had Rand captured and finally clicking this all into place for me. If you’ve got any other pulls from the episode or the season in general that back this theory up, please share in the comments!

#seriously rewatch the episode with this in mind the pieces just fall into place #the drama of it all!#wheel of time #the wheel of time #wot #wot season 2 #wot 2x07 #wheel of time 2x07 #siuan sanche #siuanraine #fishwives #lanfear #the absolute euphoria I will feel if this ends up being correct #only 2 years to find out

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