#I use the labels aroace and queer as umbrella terms for my specific orientation
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so youre an aroace queer man with a girlfriend?
You must be new here
#My lovely girlfriend also isn’t straight she’s bi#I’m only on the Aro spectrum not completely Aro#I use the labels aroace and queer as umbrella terms for my specific orientation#as I am both asexual and arospec#Hold on why am I even explaining this to an anon#go away
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Greypunk / Graypunk ( or Greyqueer / Grayqueer )
Greypunk / Greyqueer is a punk / queer term (similar to Genderpunk/Genderfuck, Voidpunk, and many other queer terms) which focuses on those in the "Grey area(s)" of identity- including but not limited to Greygender/Grey agender people, Greyromantics/Greyaros, Greysexuals/Greyaces, Greyplatonics/Greyapls, and anyone else who feels nebulous/"in-between"/vague/undefinable or similar (especially Neurodivergent, Intersex, Androgynous, and GNC folk).
I use "Grey Area" here with the definition of "not readily conforming to a single category or to an existing set of rules" so I don't have to type that out every time. (You don’t have to use that exact wording for your own identity btw)
This concept is intentionally broad and... grey! I will not gatekeep this term to any specific group(s) or label(s) and I think doing so would be antithetical to it's purpose. So please don't do that and if you want to use it go ahead.
Greypunk / Greyqueer is about community, solidarity, and defending your (and others) right to exist in the "Grey area" while also labeling your gender/attraction/etc. in a way that is the most comfortable/true to yourself/your experiences.
It's about rejecting those who try to draw strict lines around your identity and going "fuck you" when they tell you should (or make assumptions about you).
It's about finding joy and comfort your in your identity, respecting that everything isn't "black and white" (or binary/trinary, however you want to phrase it).
Greypunk / Greyqueer was inspired by my anger at many things, but mainly by the attempted exclusion of Greyaros/Greyaces from the terms Aro/Ace/Aroace or even from calling themselves "bi/gay/[insert orientation] aroace" (on the basis that they aren't "strictly"/"pure" Aros/Aces/Aroaces).
See this blog post on "umbrella crunching" here, this summary post with links, this post, this post, this post, this Arocalypse comment, this post, and this other blogpost (with even more links!) for discussion by people more eloquent than me on the above issues.
It was also inspired by the pushback against that exclusionism that I've seen (shoutout to the r/orientedaroaces subreddit!) as well as my experiences as an Aroace Androgynous Intersex person who's fed up with people defining my experiences for me.
The flag uses the same layout as Genderpunk and a few other -punk terms. I choose it for unity and also I think it just looks good. The colors are taken from the different "Grey-" flags. The dark grey to light grey stands for the "grey area", green is for Greyaros as well as Greyapls, the blue is for Greygender people as well as Greyaroaces, and the purple is for Greyaces as well as GNC, Intersex, and androgynous folks.
( Editing this to include Greyqueer as an alternative term for those who prefer it to the -punk suffix. )
Taglist - @revenant-coining
#greypunk#graypunk#grayqueer#greyqueer#punk terms#greyace#greyaro#greygender#greyaroace#greyagender#greyplatonic#greyapl#ok i have. too many tags for this term and if i put them all here it's going to get flagged as spam so forgive me#thank you to everyone who helped me proofread this! (input still welcome)
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Could I use aroace as a label even if I’m more specifically cupioromantic cupiosexual? Or like, I’ve heard of the term “angled aroace,” would that be applicable? I’m wondering just for times when I don’t want to have to explain my rom+sex orientation to people, and then getting the “oh but aren’t all aromantic and asexual romance and sex repulsed, you’re not making sense ??”.
Sure you can! Cupio- is a micro identity under the ace- and arospec umbrellas, if you're cupiosexual you're already automatically ace, and same with aro, so of course you can call yourself that! Angled aroace is typically for people who experience some sexual or romantic attraction, for example a person who is demisexual, aromantic, and bisexual, but if you feel like 'angled' fits with how you experience your cupiosexuality/romanticism then by all means you can use it! Oriented aroace could also work, depending on how you feel about tertiary attraction with regards to people you like.
Unfortunately, you probably won't get any less questions from people by ID'ing as any of these, but you can just as easily say "I'm aroace and sex/romance favourable", or even "I'm queer". Honestly it's no one's business what you are or what you like, and they're gonna assume either way. I found out that a friend of mine, who knows I'm both aro and ace, thought I liked women until I explicitly told them I don't two days ago, but if it helps at all, the more comfortable you get with your orientation, the easier it is to field questions like these.
I honestly thought this would be a quick, two-sentence reply but it really got away from me once again it seems. Hope this helps, but if it doesn't feel free to send another ask or a handwritten note by carrier pigeon.
- mod key
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Alright put your complexity and nuance cap on for this one.
I've seen the oriented aroace label before and I remember thinking - ah well, that sounds like me, but because of my personal relationship with labels I prefer umbrella terms, so I'll probably forget about this right away. And then I did exactly that.
[...] (ignore my icon, my icons have been going through something recently, look away, look away, look a )
But I don't think I'd looked into the user who coined the term and flag before, and doing so now... ... ... guess who's feeling excluded from a label that sounds like a perfect description of her roflmao
Of course I don't know everything that this person's ever said, posted, and let alone thought, but their graphics and posts seem to specifically list gay, pan and bi as examples. It's a bit awkward because correct me if I'm wrong (/gen), but that about covers all the bases but the one, right? It could be - and from this point of view, I definitely see how that can be genuinely cool - that they're purposefully straying from the commonplace listing of hetero- as a default, but because it's so specifically isolated from their definitions it could also very much be a lot more purposeful that that OTL
If I did use the oriented aroace label it would be because of my aesthetic attraction to men. What's irking me about this is that if they actually mean their coined label to exclude hetero aroaces, the people they're excluding aren't heteros-- they're aroaces. And honestly this seems evident to me, as someone who wouldn't be attracted (ha) to detailed labels, because regardless of my aesthetic attraction to men, I'm aroace and I think it's meaningful that I'm recognised as aroace.
I remember encountering a very well worded post that pointed out how whether you want it or not, straight women will share experiences with lesbians and lesbians will share experiences with aroace women who will share experiences with aroace men who will share experiences with bisexual men and so on. This post pointed the ridicule in infighting and attempts at exclusion among oppressed groups. (I focused my examples on sexual and romantic orientations but it goes without saying that these complex intersections include diverse experiences of gender identity.) This is why I feel comfortable pointing out that my experience - with womanhood, with heterosexuality, with aromanticism, with asexuality and with queerness - is diverse and notable. Either way, I'll keep saying I'm whatever I want whenever I want, and it won't hurt or bother anyone because labels are very personal. What's at the heart of my confusion is probably that the world of specific labels is one I feel very distant from. (Like - seeing their posts explaining who can use the label and why, reassuring people with questions about whether they can, clearly showcases how this is not the world I live in. My relationship to labels is waaaaaayyy looser.)
This is in no way intended to put the person who coined the label into question, as I have genuinely no way of telling their reasons at the moment, and this is my simple and personal immediate reaction to what I viewed as confusing statements. The likelihood that they're on a similar page as I am is actually far from zero.
#personal#i'm not counting this as a/ce discourse lol#god the bs i saw on my OWN dash yesterday#i'm also choosing to make my relationship to knowing that post exists loose
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Hey I saw the thing you shared with mspect culture-is And I wanted to ask something out of friendly curiosity.
How's that possible to be m-spec Acearo? And what does that mean to you?
I'm fully aware of "how" in technicality. Any label can work with any label, cuz the only point in labels is to find community and make sense of yourself. And it's also something that can be very personal, so feel free to ignore this, you won't hurt my feelings.
And if there something on your blog that already explains this, I'm going to see it after I send the ask I just didn't think to until I was done typing.
I hope you have a lovely day 💕
I don't mind the question! And thank you for being so respectful about it.
Are you familiar with the split attraction model? Essentially it's the idea that separates romantic attraction from sexual attraction but there are forms of attraction that are not sexual or romantic. These are referred to with the umbrella term tertiary attraction. Some examples of tertiary attraction are aesthetic attraction, platonic attraction, queerplatonic attraction, alterous attraction, and many more.
Aroace specifically means you do not experience sexual or romantic attraction. The phrase does not indicate you cannot experience a form of tertiary attraction, though not every single person experiences every type of tertiary attraction.
Oriented aroace is an identity where someone who does not experience sexual or romantic attraction experiences a form of tertiary attraction in a way that is significant to them. The term oriented aroace is put alongside an affinitive orientation (a word that indicates what gender(s) someone is attracted to such as gay, lesbian, or bi). Sometimes, an amative orientation (a word that indicates how someone experiences a form of attraction such as demi, gray, or fray) is used alongside a form of tertiary attraction but that is less common.
For example, an aroace woman/ fem-aligned person who likes other women/ fem-aligned could identify as lesbian-oriented aroace or sapphic-oriented aroace. Some other common ones are bi-oriented aroace, pan-oriented aroace, and gay-oriented aroace. If someone wanted to add an amative orientation, they could say something like biplatonic-oriented aroace or homoaesthetic-oriented aroace.
Mspec, while being an umbrella term, is an affinitive orientation. In the past, I have played around with words like pan, bi, and spectra to describe my orientation but I now prefer broader terms like mspec, achillean, or queer to describe my attraction.
Being aroace is an important part of my identity but solely saying aroace doesn't describe my full orientation so I prefer to say oriented aroace, usually mspec-oriented aroace or achillean-oriented aroace. To me, it just means that I am aroace but I am still attracted to multiple genders, just not sexually or romantically.
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Can i ask what the difference between ace and aro is? If not thats totally fine! I was just curious, have a lovely day ♥️
Of course!! I hope you are having a lovely day as well, nonnie. Thanks for the ask! I’m not an expert but I have done a lot of research since realizing I was both ace and aro but I only recently realized this within the last six months so I’m going to give kind of broad terms and they both definitely have more definitive terms depending on the person using them. Ace is short for Asexual. Aro is short for Aromantic. (As I type this Aromantic is showing as a spelling error, and if that doesn’t tell you anything about how underrepresented that community is idk what will). This got a bit long, so I am putting it all under the cut.
Asexual people feel little to no sexual attraction. The opposite of this is Allosexual, meaning you do feel sexual attraction. Asexual is an umbrella term and there’s many micro labels under it as well. This doesn’t mean aces don’t have a libido though. Some people have high or low libidos and are still Ace because it’s about sexual attraction. Asexual people sometimes define themselves as one of the following, sex favorable (does enjoy sex, but possibly won’t initiate it themselves, or they could live without it but are happy to partake as far as I understand), sex positive (this can mean the previous, or, like me, they encourage others to have sex if they want it, and believe safe sex should be taught, etc.), sex neutral (they might enjoy sex, but eh, that’s cool if they never do it again, or ever), and sex repulsed (might get nauseous at the thought of it, never wants to partake, depending who they are they might not want to see it, hear it, watch it, etc even within media, nothing). Back to feeling or not feeling sexual attraction, for example, I have never once looked at, say Chris Hemsworth or Zendaya, and thought “Yeah, they turn me on, I’d have sex with them.” (Honestly the fact that I really had to think to come up with names there, which I think it very telling, I’m laughing at myself). *oversharing probably but trying to help people understand, sorry* Despite the my lack of sexual attraction to anyone, I do feel things, for example, when I read smut or something similar. Ace people might get themselves off, have sex, or never do anything of the sort down there. That kind of thing is about feeling good, you don’t have to think your partner or whatever is sexy in order to do that. If anyone wants to do their own research, AVEN.com (Asexual Visibility and Education Network) is probably a good starting point, or I can rec some blogs here.
Aromantic people feel little to no romantic attraction. Very different from feeling sexual attraction, yes? Basically, take all of what I wrote about being Ace and exchange sex with romance and that’s an aromantic person. I will explain anyway. Just like allosexual, alloromantic people are people who do feel romantic attraction. Romantic attraction is when you want to do romantic coded things with people. Of course romance is a bit harder to define than sex, so it can mean a lot of things to different people. Kissing can be seen as romantic to one person, and another aro person could really enjoy kissing others for example. Personally, I get pretty uncomfortable in romantic situations regarding myself and someone else, which I would probably define as being Romance Repulsed. After learning what this term meant and reading some about it, I really thought of my experiences. I’m pretty sure I’ve never had a crush on anyone, relationships (the brief two that I’ve had) really just felt like friendships. I didn’t initiate anything besides maybe handholding because I didn’t know what to do, or I didn’t even realize that was a thing that most people in that situation would be doing at that point in a relationship. I felt very uncomfortable when a ex tried to take a kiss further than a peck, among other things. Again, being Aromantic doesn’t mean aro people automatically will never have or want romantic relationships. They just don’t feel those feels for people usually. Like AVEN for asexuals, there’s Arocalypse.com for aro people. I have less blogs to rec here, but I can rec some if someone wants it.
There are good examples of different types of attraction, I personally feel platonic attraction which would be the desire to be someone’s friend, as well as aesthetic attraction which is defined below.
People can be one, or both, or neither. I am both, AroAce. People in these communities often use the Split Attraction Model (SAM). Which would be like someone stating that they are Asexual Homoromantic, or Aromantic Heterosexual, or Aromantic Pansexual, among many other combos.
Because I do feel aesthetic attraction, pretty much solely towards women, I define myself as an Oriented AroAce, or Lesbian AroAce. If I ever did end up in a relationship with someone, I can only ever imagine it to be with a woman. Again though, that’s just one microlable among so many that are out there.
This is a huge list of identities and labels, it overwhelms be tbh, but I’m linking it here anyway because it’s very informative.
I assume this ask was in response my reblog here. Yes I get very annoyed when people treat these two orientations as the same thing, despite me identifying as both. As I hope you can now see, they are very different things. A lot of the time, I enjoy reading about romance and sometimes sexual relationships, but sometimes I want to read other peoples thoughts, fics, posts, etc about only one of these and the Aro/Aromanticism tag is flooded with posts about asexuality which really doesn’t help people who are trying to learn about aromanticism or wanting specific content.
One more point before I wrap this up. I read a book because I wanted to see if it’d help me know for sure if I was demisexual (definition can be found in the huge list I linked two paragraphs up, or on google), and it actually made me realize I was aroace and I am forever grateful for it so I will rec it here. It’s called Loveless by @aliceoseman and it has quickly become my favorite book. So if anyone wants to read about a fictional character realizing they’re aroace, this is a fantastic book. I related so much to Georgia, it’s crazy. Also her other works are fantastic.
Remember you are not alone! Experts believe that 1% of the population is ace (and I think it’s the same for aro people) and that might sound like no one but, guys, theres 7.8 billion people on this planet. That means theres 78 million people like us! I ended up finding a lot of ace people to follow on twitter as well by the way.
This might be a hot take to some but the A in LGBTQIA+ does not mean ally! It’s for Asexual, Aromantic, and Agender! And we do belong in the queer community because the queer community is for people who aren’t straight, cis, or amatonormative. Wow, I hope this all makes sense, if any of you are confused or have more thoughts, or I messed something up, UNLESS YOU’RE BEING APHOBIC, add your thoughts, or message me!
Side note: Do please send me recs of people to follow, books, fics, shows, whatever, I am always searching for new content within these orientations!
#this was a lot#I've spent more than an hour on this lol#asexual#asexuality#ace#aro#aromantic#aromanticism#split attraction model#queer#lgbtqia#lgbtqia+#aven#arocalypse
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Hello. I’m going off what an anon said about not being able to use asexuality as just an umbrella term for aromanticism without having to explain that they’re just not attracted to anyone bc aces have “pushed the whole we can still love idea so hard.” This is by no means meant to be a negative post. If I somehow do come across aggresive or otherwise, spam my inbox and let me know cause sometimes things sound one way in my head and another to other people. It just bothers me a bit, because one of the reasons it’s so strongly pushed is because we say we’re asexual and feel no sexual attraction and then are immediately bombarded with questions of ‘oh how will you ever find a relationship or find love or have kids or what have you,’ and I can assume that anon has experienced some of this too when trying to explain to some people because some people suck and act like those are the only things that matter. But for alloromantic aces, some may still want a romantic relationship without sex or a family or whatever else and it bothers us that people act like we can’t have it or that we’re incapable of love and feel like sex is required in a relationship or to prove you love someone.
I feel that if we can specify what kind of ace we are like gay ace or whatever else, on that same coin, then one can just as easily specify what kind of ace they are and identity as aroace. For me, I generally identify as panromantic asexual, but my asexuality is most important to me because it affects me most and it’s what I’m most aware of on a daily basis. When I find myself on the other end of sexual advances, I don’t specify what kind of ace i am, i just say I’m ace. There’s also the fact that on questionaires that will ask you about your sexual orientation, like tinder for instance, it’ll ask you your sexual orientation, and both asexual and pansexual are options, but until recently, you could only choose one. And both implies two completely different things. So asexual is sometimes what I worry about identifying with first and foremost. Especially considering that if I say I’m pansexual/panromantic asexual, I also still have to do a ridiculous amount of explaining too, and so would someone who is gay ace because not everyone understands what it means and how it’s possible to be both, and the amount of times I get asked that, especially on any site set up like tinder when panromantic isn’t an option so you choose both asexual and pansexual. There are people who understand pansexuality and asexuality as two different things, but then you bring in the idea of extended romantic identities like panromantic, and then they want more explanations.
I also know people who identify as asexual and nothing else. No specific romantic identity. Strictly asexual despite having romantic relationships because they choose not to label themselves further than that and that’s valid. I don’t really care that some people use asexual as a blanket term for their aroace identity, it’s similar to how people use queer or gay or such as a blanket ish term for other things sometimes, heck, i really specifically identify as grey asexual, but again, that leads to more explanations and simply just saying ace is so much easier. Regardless, I don’t think it’s fair to expect another group to have to further explain themselves simply so you don’t have to.
Asexual can be used as a blanket term but it is by no means strictly interchangeable with nor mean the same thing as aromantic. And as an alloromantic asexual, it’s important to me that people know that. Because they generally do mean different things. And I think it’s important to know that just because i don’t want sex, it does not mean I don’t want love. And I understand that wasn’t anon’s point, but just as they hate having to clarify they have no attraction to people, romantic or sexual, I hate having to clarify that I can still love and have relationships or kids or whatever else I want, regardless of not wanting sex. From my other ace friends, I know that I’m not the only one who feels this way. And I’m sorry this turned out so long. It wasn’t my intention.
#asexual#asexuality#aromantic#aro#ace#difference between ace and aro#asexual problems#aromantic problems#submission
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If I ever mislabel anything, please let me know! Not every post is a coining post, so sometimes I might not know/forget an aspect of a definition or may be confusing the label with different one.
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[about]
[flagalog ask]
[flagalog post]
[flagalog reply]
[not flags]
[my flags]
Frequently Appearing
Lesbian
Gay Man
Aspec
Aroace
Bigender
Categories
Orientations
[acespec] - acespec orientations
[aroacespec] - aroacespec orientations
[arospec] - arospec orientations
[aspec] - all asexual/aromantic spectrum orientations
[daimoric] - orientations that fall under diamoric
[mspec] - multiple gender attracted orientations
[nofin] - mspec orientations that exclude genders that are feminine in nature
[noma] - mspec orientations that exclude men
[nomin] - mspec orientations that exclude genders that are masculine in nature
[nonin] - mspec orientations that exclude genders that are non-binary in nature
[nowoma] - mspec orientations that exclude women
[orientations] - all orientations
[quoi] - quoi umbrella orientations/genders/experiences
[sapphic] - orientations that fall under sapphic/wlw
[vincian] - orientations that fall under vincian/achillean/mlm
[xlg] - genderless juvelic (glg) orientations
[juvelic] - all orientations defined using glg terminology
Genders
[agin] - genders agender in nature (may also tag genderless genders in general)
[auin] - genders autonomous in nature
[coric genders] - genders related to [blank]core
[faunagenders] - animal related genders
[female] - genders that include female in it’s definition/have some proximity to womanhood
[fin] - genders feminine in nature
[floragenders] - plant related genders (I will likely tag fungi too)
[fluid genders]
[fluix genders] - fluidflux genders
[flux genders]
[foodic] - food related genders
[genders] - all genders
[lin] - genders that are both fin and min
[male] - genders that include male in it’s definition/have some proximity to manhood
[min] - genders masculine in nature
[multigenders]
[nin] - genders non-binary or neutral in nature
[space genders] - space related genders, including those that are only space related in name and alien genders; excluding celestialgenders and galactian alignment
[xenic] - xenogenders/xenorientations
Gender Systems
[gender system] - falls under any gender system I don’t use this tag anymore
[celestialgender]
[celestial system]
[demigenders]
[galactian alignments]
[libragenders]
[magigenders]
[metal system]
[stellar system]
[vanarella system]
[zodiacgenders]
Other
[aplspec] - aplatonic spectrum flags
[attraction label] - flags for specific attraction types
[combo] - flags that are a mix of 2+ identities/groups (e.g. sapphic aspec), but not combos like edit blogs make (i.e. 2+ flags layered on top of each other)
[culture specific]
[edit] - proposed variations of existing flags that aren’t significant enough to be classified as a redesign imo; additions to existing flags (e.g. adding Philly Pride Stripes).
[flag d*sc*urse] - to keep track on info regarding flag creator or flag design controversies
[flag list] - several flags given, w/ or w/o linked sources
[gender expression] - related to gender expression/presentation
[intersex] - intersex/intersex specific flags
[meaning not defined] - color/symbol meanings not provided in post, but meanings may exist so check with the OP; flags whose colors were picked from an image are included because I’m not sure if that would really be considered a meaning for the orientation/gender/other or just the described coloring method; for filtering purposes only, not a judgement of flag quality or its creator(s) (I forgot about this tag so there’s a lot I didn’t tag this that technically should be) I don’t use this tag anymore.
[neuro specific] - neurogenders and neurorientations
[orientation genders] - genders influenced by one’s orientation (e.g. arogender)
[other] - any flags I couldn’t think of a category for
[polya] - polyamorous and similar terms (e.g. polyaffectionate)
[qspec] - queer spectrum orientations/genders
[relationship label] - e.g. queerplatonic
[symbols] - flag elements and other symbols
[subcultures] - butch/femme, twink/otter/bear, etc., some might be classified under gender expression depending on flag meanings
[simplified] - flags that are a simiplified version of an existing flag (e.g. adjustement in stripe number but not also color)
[term archive]
[umbrella] - flags of umbrella terms
Year of Coining - needs to be tagged
[20/14] - mostly archived terms
[20/18]
[20/19]
[20/20]
Any flags I’ve made can be found under the [flagalog post] tag.
Things to tag/link
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Anything to Add?
The final question in this survey was a write-in section for people to leave any additional comments. 113 people responded.
Important/Particularly Interesting Comments
• I hope this goes well for you because you seem nice and if you have any advice for new to the community 15 year olds like me, don't be afraid to share because I'm trying to embrace my sexuality as much as possible but it can be hard when I don't know where to go or turn to to find what I'm supposed to do and where to ask questions and just fully embrass this part of me and it can be hard when I don't even know many if any aspecs so representation is great and it is helpful to hear your experiences and how you handle certain parts, so just keep doing what your doing because it is making a difference [note: 🥺🥺😭]
• i often consider myself more as just aroace rather than aro and ace seperately so i prefer seeing the blue and orange aroace flag over the individual aro and ace flags
• I don't really shorten my identity often with aroace, only when im feeling very romance repulsed and its been a while since I felt romantic attraction. I am a pan-demiromantic asexual. My pan label makes me feel more connected to the lgbt+ community bc it feels like my nonbinary and intersex status doesn't count either. I know I belong in the queer community, but the lgbt+ community is so sexual orientation focused.
• Thank you for having a wide variety of labels to choose from in the options!! I don't see the term aegoromantic very often on things, it feels nice to be known I guess haha
• Thank you for this, i recently started thinking about being in arospec and it was so relieving, all this time i thought something was wrong or maybe i was broken. I'm still trying to learn more about it, and I'm grateful for people willing to teach and help
• didn't realize I hadn't experienced sexual attraction until I finally did and was like "OH, no wonder all my other relationships felt like I was playing pretend"
• I dont often tell people I'm gray aroace. Not because of shame or it not being "as important" (I'm a gay trans dude) but I think because I just feel its a very intimate part of myself, as well as my romanticism and sexuality (in terms of like asexuality) feeling as though it doesn't always need a label. I'm fine just being myself most of the time, a lot of labels can be tricky for myself I think. I'm happy the label exists nonetheless though because Its nice to know I'm not the only one who feels like this.
• I'm queer! But if I'm getting down to the bones of it, I'm pan/ace. Still relearning how to be proud of that, after The Grand Clusterfuck years back.
• even though I would be considered to have an alloromantic orientation, alloace isn't really a term I feel any strong connection or attachment to
• i'd like to add that i do consider myself alloaro and use that label openly but i'd also not consider myself 100% allosexual. i'm questioning my sexuality but even if i do end up feeling more solidly ace-spec i'd still use the alloaro label
• Idk who else does this or if this is interesting enough to write down, but I thought I would! I use Aroace as a label. Other, smaller labels inside that would probably fit me better! Aroace feels too big, like it doesn't *really* define exactly who I am. But at the same time, I prefer using it because more people know what Aroace means (at least compared to myrromantic and myrsexual). I use Aroace so the public can define me. I don't typically use it around my close friends 'cause they already know my idiosyncrasies and where I really am. They already made their own definitions for me, so I don't have to make one for them!
• I'm still figuring myself out, so I leave myself at the blanket terms and hopefully everything'll work out in the end
The rest of the responses are below:
Comments Alerting Me About Typos (that I was then able to resolve)
• There's a typo in your "sexual orientation labels" question, because you have Aroflux listed and not Aceflux, but I didn't want to confuse things so I put Aceflux (which I do use) under Other. I also am polysexual (I flux between polysexual and asexual but I am always aegosexual) but didn't know if I should but it under Other anywhere since it's not an acespec label. I consider my polysexuality tied to me being aego/aceflux though, which is why I mention it here.
• the sexual orientations options are the same of the romantic ones ( for example, there's arovague and arospike in the sexual cathegory)
People Clarifying/Expounding Upon Their Own Identity/Experiences
· to clarify: i'm unsure whether or not i am demi or aceflux; so i use graysexual since both labels technically fall under that as an umbrella term.
• I’m still a confused gorl and I really only know that I don’t like sex it sexual acts but I do like romantic and sensual acts
• Sex/romance repulsed and I have aesthetic attraction
• I'm also animesexual and fictosexual (and romantic I guess but I don't like using the SAM for myself).
• I have never seen most of these labels, haha, I expect one of them is the one I always forget that's for being aro due to past trauma but people always assume it's romantic/sexual trauma so I don't use it and thus have forgotten it...but that's the essay I'm not usually up for writing: was biromantic but then had several awful life events on top of each other and had a complete breakdown and have been aro since. Unclear if it's permanent but it's been 14 years now. [note: I believe this person is thinking of caedromantic]
• I tend to use the word ace more than asexual because it's shorter, but I don't feel more favorably about one than the other.
• i can't tell the difference between platonic vs romantic attraction, and am unsure if people i have "liked" in the past was romantic, platonic, or a fake stemming from peer pressure.
• Also Gender-Neutral/Agender
• I’m gray-aro but identify more with being biromantic even though I know I’m aro-spec. As for sexual orientation, I’m just completely ace xD
• The fact I'm still trying to figure out my gender makes it harder to pinpoint exactly what my orientations are :( but I usually say I'm queer, and if it's safe: Bi Ace, and if I can get more specific: biromantic grey-asexual
• I also use a platonic label (biplatonic). I use it not in a friendship way, but more like in a QPR way.
• Thank you for doing this! My identity on the aro/ace spectrums has shifted a lot over the years and while I’ve just settled on aroace and queer for the most part, this community is so diverse and under appreciated. People who find joy in/identify with micro-identities are valid and deserve representation!
• I'm still figuring out my romantic orientation but it's looking less allo by the day lmao
• My romantic label is very fluid, but in terms of sexual labels, very sex repulsed Asexual
• Content with just Aspec cause it's difficult to pinpoint anything but cool with both asexual/ace and aromantic/aro
• I think of my romantic orientation as halfway between aromantic and homoromantic
• I'm a polyamorous ace, if there'd be a way to include that sometimes that'd be neat :)
• I am still questioning my identity
• I used to identify as 100% ace but now I have no idea other than that I seem to be pan-ace in some way shape or form so my identity is ???people???
• Sex/romance repulsed and I have aesthetic attraction
• to clarify: i'm unsure whether or not i am demi or aceflux; so i use graysexual since both labels technically fall under that as an umbrella term.
Queer Rights
• Trans rights, baybee 🤠🦂
• I just hope a-spec and aro-spec people will experience less negativity and hate this year <3
• Aspec rights!!
• aspec rights, baby
People Being Nice to Me (I appreciated this thank you everyone!!)
· :)
• Have a good day
• Uhhh, cool survey, nice to see a lot of labels.... good job! Nothing I have to add, it was great
• Have fun chief, thank you for your work
• Thank you for creating!
• thanks for the survey! I don't know too many aspec in person so I love participating in things like this about the ace/aro community!
• Thank you for what you’re doing
• just hi :)
• thanks!!
• I really love your blog! Reading your posts always makes me happy :) [note: thank you!]
• Good luck, have a nice day !
• I hope you're having a good day :)
• you're lived and valid af!! have a great day!!!
• Thank you for all your hard work i really appreciate it ☺️
• Drink some water Right Now OP
• Nope, :> hope the best for you.
• Cool survey, 10/10 would survey again.
• 💛
• Have a nice day uwu
• Nope! Have a nice day!
• Thank you for making pride flag edits! They're really nice! [note: thank you!!]
• nope, but this is really cool!!
• ❤️
• Have a good day.
• I think this survey idea is super cool! Definitely a great way to see what sort of aspec people are on tumblr :)
• You are doing the lords work
• Thank you for asking us.
• good luck!
• This is really cute idea :)
• I hope you're having a nice day!
• Good luck in your endevours!
• Thank you for making our community visible!
• Have a good day :3
• Have a good day!!
• Keep doing great stuff!
• Thank you for all the positivity I get from your blog! It's super helpful, keep it up :) [note: thank you!!]
• thanks for doing this. recognition is always nice
• Have fun <3
• Lots of love 💛
• This is a cool project, thanks for doing it and good luck! :)
People Saying They Love Me (and I love you, random a-specs)
· i love you OP!!!!!
• love you, hope you have a great day
An A-Spec Person Being Rude to Other A-Specs
• If you enjoy sex with your romantic partner then you are not asexual
A Person Who Is Not A-Spec Being Rude To A-Specs
• sweetie im sorry that you're so insecure that you feel like you have to make up new identities to feel better about yourself. if you are a lesbian or bisexual please know that you are welcome in the community, but other than that making thousands of microlabels like this makes a huge joke out of what was once an important and respected group. nobody takes us seriously anymore because of this shit. does labelling your identity like this really help you with anything? demisexual and fraysexual and all this are just fancy words for normal human feelings that everyone has. there is no need to microlabel it.
Other
· [variations of “no” (12)]
• not sure that helps lmao but still hope it does. all the best
• Axolotls (or as I like to call them, asexulotls) are amazing and I love them [Note: the man in question]
• Sorry, I can't remember the names of any blogs that do edits
• Ok random but the colors of the aro/ace flag? The blue and orange one? They’re gorgeous.
• I'm not so sure if I should use the aroace flag, I feel comfortable using both aro and ace flags, but I don't like the colors for the aroace flag :c [note: these are in chronological order, it’s a total coincidence that these comments are together]
• Curious to see where the survey goes
• It would be cool if you could also do some aplatonic-spectrum edits!
• there were fully half of the terms on that list that i had never even seen before. like, everything below litho down to no label was entirely new to me. at some point i will look into those! (but not right now, my brain is full enough at the moment)
• actually had to look up the majority of these orientations. Thank you for the opportunity to learn!
• Gonna reblog and follow and hopefully learn a bit more, about others and myself
Note: The only comment that is not listed in order is the first comment, which I put at the top because I found it the most important. It’s so important that kids and teens have space to explore their identity and learn about themselves. The reason I made this blog in the first place was because I was 19 and working on figuring out my gender and sexuality. Now that I’m a bit older and understand things better, I’m so glad that I’m able to help people in this way.
I make it a point to be very openly queer in my life and at work because I need LGBTQ+ people, especially youths, to know that we’re here. I’m lucky that I live somewhere that I can be visibly queer and speak about it openly. We are everywhere, and there’s more of us than you think!
Something that I really like about the comments at the top is that they show how diverse we are, and how people use words differently. Some people feel like they’re more aroace than aromantic and asexual separately, and others consider their romantic and sexual orientations to be completely different things.
I definitely relate to the person who identifies are myrromantic and myrsexual with their friends but just says aroace when speaking with people they don’t know as well. I believe a lot of people use different words depending on who they’re speaking with.
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National Coming Out Day
Hi y’all! So, I know I’m really vocal about my identity, but I feel the obligation to do something for it, so I’m going to explain everything in one post!
Gender
Transgender: An umbrella term that means any gender that isn’t cis. This typically means the binary genders (ftm or mtf), but it can include nonbinary genders too.
Nonbinary: An umbrella term meaning anything that isn’t male nor female. It can lean to one side of the spectrum, be n the middle, or completely off the grid.
I use both terms because I have a connection to both, but I am definitely nonbinary. I’m not exactly sure what I am, so I just use the umbrella term. I was using it as a place holder for a while, but now I’m kinda just… whatever about finding a more fitting term. I’d be nice to have something more specific, but I’m not actively looking for something right now.
Orientation
Asexual: An umbrella term meaning not experiencing sexual attraction or limited sexual attraction. For me it’s the former. I don’t experience sexual attraction whatsoever. That being said, anyone who experience limited attraction and still wants to use it is totally valid.
Aromantic: An umbrella term meaning not experiencing romantic attraction or limited romantic attraction. The same thing applies to aromanticism about folks who want to use it. Again, for me it’s the former definition.
Not all aromantics are asexual and vice versa. There’s lots of aromantics who are allosexual, as well as there are asexuals who are alloromantic.
Oriented Aroace: A person who is an aromantic asexual who experiences another type of attraction that isn’t sexual or romantic, but is strong enough that it’s worth mentioning. For some people, it’s aesthetic attraction; for some it’s sensual; for me in particular, it’s alterous attraction.
Alterous attraction is something that is completely different from romantic and platonic attraction (there’s a misconception that it’s something between those, but that’s incorrect). I’ll be honest, I’m not really sure how to explain it because it’s so much a part of my life, and romantic/sexual attraction just really… isn’t. All I know is that for me, it’s strong and intense, but I just know it’s not something else.
Toric: A nonbinary who is attracted to men/masculine genders. This is the same thing as nblm. I just prefer this term to the other one. Being toric doesn’t mean you only like men, though it can. You can still like other genders and describe yourself as toric. For me, that’s the oriented part of the oriented aroace. I’m alterously attracted to men (and maybe masculine genders? I’m not too sure yet). I’m not sure if I’m attracted to any other genders. I experience strong aesthetic attraction for women, but it’s hard to tell if there’s anything else going a long with it. As for nonbinaries, I’ve known, like, three. My sample size isn’t anywhere big enough to even guess. Me being toric doesn’t make me any less aromantic or asexual, nor does me being aroace make me any less toric. All those labels are very important to me.
I also identify as queer: an umbrella term meaning anyone who isn’t heterosexual, heretoromantic, and cisgender at the same time (yes, all of these. This includes aspecs who use sam and straight trans folks). This is a slur, but it’s a reclaimed one. No one has to use it, but those who want to have the right. I very much want to. Being queer is a huge part of who I am. For me, calling myself that is liberating. It’s a nice and easy way to express my identity without having to break out the PowerPoint presentation. And even though I don’t mind being called gay, this word just feels more inclusive.
Hope this was helpful for someone! Y’all are wonderful, and I hoe you have a nice National Coming Out Day, whether you want to come out or not.
#chris rambles#long post#color text#national coming out day#national coming out day 2019#aromantic#asexual#aroace#oriented aroace#nonbinary#trans#transgender#enby#aro#ace#toric
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So ive been questioning whether or not im aro. I used to ID as panro but ive been soul searching lately as well as entering the dating world a bit and i just dont know. I think i might be quiroromantic? Any advice for trying to figure this out? Thanks
Aaalright, so it’s been a while since I was questioning, so I’m a bit out of the loop on this front, but I’ll do my best to direct you to some resources.
@aromantic-official is pretty much aro central, and they have a resource page that includes resources for questioning aros and a glossary of aro terms, which should be a decent start. Their questioning tag also contains a variety of posts that are aimed at questioning aros; I haven’t gone through all of them, but it’s hard to imagine that there won’t be at least one that’s a little helpful.
@anagnori also has a very extensive resource page (although some may be out of date; I haven’t checked all of them), and also wrote this post aimed at questioning aros.
AUREA is a fairly new website/organization dedicated to aromantics, and it has a resource page (again, haven’t checked all the links, but since the site is new, they should at least be up to date)
For quoiromanticism specifically, this post is a good 101 introduction (idk how relevant that is to you, but I feel contractually obligated to include it). The coiner of the term is @epochryphal, who has a quoi tag that is likely to include relevant info. @shades-of-grayro is a good blog for everyone on with a grayro identity (’grayromantic’ is both a specific identity and an umbrella term), and while they don’t seem to have a consistent quoi tag, the quoiromantic search on their blog yields good results. I don’t follow any quoiro blogs, but a quick search turns up @quoisitively-queer, who I’ve seen around (idk how active they are though), and although it’s not especially relevant, I remember @official-quoisexual from when I was questioning whether I was quoisexual, and although the blog is dedicated towards quoisexuality rather than quoiromanticism, and since the quoi community is small, ze might still be able to help you find more specific resources.
Some other aro blogs I recommend (note: I don’t follow everyone on this list, but they’re all good blogs as far as I know):
@aro-neir-o (lots of research)
@aroworlds and the creator’s other blog @alloaroworlds; the first is a blog centering around aro creativity, and the second is an allo aro community blog.
@fandomshateaspecs (community blog, run by a variety of mods)
@biaroace (coiner of the ‘oriented aroace’ term)
@black-aros and the creator’s other aro blog @official-angledaroace; coined the term ‘angled aroace’, which the second is a community blog for, and the first is a blog centering around black aros.
@aro-soulmate-project (originally a blog for deconstructing the soulmate trope, still pretty vocal about this, but has turned into more of a general aro blog with good posts)
@aroarolibrary
@aroacepagans
and uuhh definitely a whole lot more but my brain is blanking at the moment, if you’re an aro blog feel free to like or reblog or reply to this post to make yourself known! I strongly recommend speaking to arospecs directly about your doubts/questions; often, personal conversation can help clear things up in a way that resource posts just can’t. Getting involved in the community can also help; while there’s no guarantee of this, personally, that’s what made me feel secure in my identity.
On a personal questioning note: I can only speak from personal experience as an aromantic with no romantic attraction whatsoever, as well as someone who was lucky enough to have a fairly stereotypical aro experience and get through questioning relatively easily (and with no internalized issues around the aromanticism), but the biggest issue that I found in my aro questioning journey was that the aro label felt so final and definitive, when the aro identity, by nature, is hard to figure out/’prove’ because you can’t prove a negative. I can’t prove that I will never experience romantic attraction; it’s entirely possible that I will, in the future. Hell, I can’t even really prove that I haven’t in the past; there were several instances where I very well might’ve gotten genuine crushes.
But ultimately? Being aro made me happy. The idea of being aro was appealing in a way that being romantically attracted to people/dating never was. For me, at least, being aro is honestly more about making the choice to reject society’s planned romantic path than about the certainty that I will never experience romantic attraction; I feel no desire to ever experience it, the instances in the past that might’ve been romantic attraction annoyed me immensely, and the aro community and the aro label make me happy in a way that I never was when I didn’t have those. I might experience romantic attraction in the future. I might have experienced it in the past. But, ultimately, I cannot relate to the alloromantic experience at all, so either way, I’m somewhere on the aro spectrum, and the ‘aromantic’ identity makes me feel happy, so I’m using it and you physically cannot stop me.
(Obviously, this isn’t a universal experience: many aro people still have the desire to date/marry/have a romantic relationship, many aro people still experience some form of romantic attraction, many aro people may struggle with internalized self hate due to being aromantic or mourn the loss of their pre-planned romantic lifepath, or experience being aromantic in a completely different way. This is just my personal experience, and I wish I’d heard it when I was questioning, so I try to tell it to questioning aros now that I have the chance to do so.)
So, to close, I’ll repeat the same thing I always say to questioning people: ultimately, it’s more important that you’re happy with a label than that it fits. If identifying as aromantic, quoiromantic, or any other arospec identity makes you feel right, happy, or gives you the language to talk about your experiences in a way that you currently can’t, then you shouldn’t worry too much about whether or not the label technically fits, honestly. If IDing as panromantic makes you happy and accurately gives you language to talk about your experiences/describe your feelings, then there may be no need to ID as arospec, even if you fit the definitions. But if IDing as arospec makes you happy or helps you in any way, you can always start IDing as such, even if you’re not sure, don’t entirely fit the definitions, or if you later change your label.
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Alright so the survey on aro community needs from this post got 30 responses, and with it all being long form I don’t expect to get many more.
So what I’m going to do is give summaries of common themes and answers above the cut for people who don’t want to read through a bunch of text, and then I’m going to put individual answers under the cut for folks who are interested. Please note that these are all anonymous survey answers, and they do not necessarily reflect my opinions. I encourage people to have/start discussions around the topics brought up here so that we can work towards having a mutually fulfilling and cohesive community.
Summary:
What are the community needs of alloaros?
More recognition and visibility both within and outside of the aspec community, aro specific spaces where no one will assume that they’re ace and where they don’t have to be bombarded by ace content, safe spaces to talk about their experiences with sexual attraction, and a wider community acknowledgment that ace and aro don’t mean the same thing.
What are the community needs of aroaces?
Separate aroace spaces, space and language that allows them to express the interconnectedness of their aro and ace identities, a recognition of the diversity of aroace experiences including the experiences of oriented aroaces and aro leaning aroaces, spaces devoid of both sex and romance, and less infighting between the aro and ace communities.
What are the community needs of non-SAM aros?
New language that doesn’t enforce the use of SAM as a norm and that doesn’t enforce a SAM/ non-SAM binary, more recognition of aromantic as one whole identity, more inclusion of their identity within aro spaces, and having the ability to label themselves as aro without being asked what their other identity is .
What are the community needs of greyro/ aro-spec folks?
Specific spaces where they can talk about aromantic attraction, more recognition and visibility both within and outside of the aspec community, more greyro/aro-spec specific resources and content, and a larger platform within the aspec community to discuss their experiences.
What are the shared needs of these different subgroups within the aro and arospec community?
Increased visibility, spaces free from amatonormativity, safe and unbiased shared spaces for all members of the aro/aro-spec community, separation and distinction from alloaces, more in-person spaces, and a building of understanding and acceptance between the different community subgroups.
How do we meet all of these needs within an online space?
Better and more formalized tagging systems, creating more forums, chats, tags, etc, that are specific to different aro and arospec subgroups, creating more variety in online aro spaces generally, giving equal online spaces and platforms to all aro subgroups, and having open and polite community discussion about our needs within online aro spaces.
How do we meet all of these needs within an in-person space?
Use inclusive language, allow for smaller sub-communities within larger aro and aspec groups, provide resources for small, lesser known identities both within groups and at pride, push for more aro inclusion in wider queer spaces and create safe and respectful discussion spaces where everyone can voice their needs
How do we reconcile conflicting needs?
Civil and open discussions, try to find solutions instead of just arguing, and create separate spaces for subgroups when needed while continuing to maintain larger general spaces for discuison and community building.
Individual answers:
What are the community needs of alloaros?
1. A space to be aromantic but not asexual. As an alloaro myself, I struggle to relate to many aroaces - and the ace community in general - because my sexuality is a big part of my identity, right along side being aromantic. I want a place where I can discuss how being aromantic affects my sexual attraction without having to focus on one or the other
2. A place to talk about sexual attraction without being ridiculed or being called a player. Advice about how to go about getting a relationship that fulfills their needs without be demeaned to expected to evolve into romantic.
3. I'm not alloaro, so I don't feel comfortable speculating on their behalf, but from the perspective of an outsider looking in, they need more visibility, both within and outside of the aro community.
4. Recognition mostly, acknowledging that asexuals can’t keep putting their stuff into the aro tag, the fact that romance repulsed allo aros exist and are uncomfortable with allo aces putting their stuff everywhere
5. Aro specific places. I personally don't have to talk about sexuality in general areas but aroallo specific places/sites/tags for this would be great.
6. Dismantling the assumption that aromanticism is inherently linked to asexuality (even if it is for some individuals, it's most definitely not a hard rule that applies to everybody else), moving away from seeing aroace as the "default" aro experience and in fact not assuming one's other possible identities because they identify as aro at all
7. Not one myself - probably spaces to find safe hook-ups if desired, to talk amongst themselves
8. Less ace experience talking over aro experience. Also, not conflating the two identities as one.
9. I often feel ashamed of the allo part of my identity. I think more visibility would help a lot. It also took a very long time for me to even consider being aro because I was under the impression I had to be ace so separating those ideas would help.
10. As I’m not allo aro I can’t really say, but a lot of them have been speaking out and saying that they don’t want aro to automatically mean aroace, and that aromantism is not a sub sexuality is asexual
11. To talk about alloaro specific issues freely, and to not be assumed to be ace or to have to leave our sexualities at the door when entering aro spaces
12. Increased awareness that one can experience sexual attraction without romantic attraction
13. To be respected and given a aro-specific space/platform to discuss their needs/issues/etc
14. A space to not be: assumed ace, confused with aces, forced to avoid talking about how they want sex without romance and how that sexual desire affects them, etc. A space where they can find others like them to help them understand themselves better and make friendships and feel less isolated.
15. i'm not alloaro so i'm not going to speak for them but like. acknowledging that aro does not mean ace and allowing the aro community to exist outside of the ace umbrella is super important
What are the community needs of aroaces?
1. Recognition that aro is an equal and completely it's own community but that the community doesn't have to be completely separated.
2. Separated areas where uniquely aroace experiences can be discussed
3. Less infighting between the aromantic and asexual communities. You can and should call out hurtful behavior by the other community, but going into isolation mode leaves aroaces stuck in the middle of two sides retreating in on themselves. Aroace issues are aro issues! Aroace issues are ace issues!
4. Acknowledging that we occupy a unique overlap between the aro and ace communities that no other perioriented people experience (if we can even call ourselves perioriented, since we're basically forced to straddle two communities or else have one aspect of our identity erased); having spaces where we can talk about our aroaceness without having to separate out our identities, when we often can't
5. Well if you mean just "aroaces" who use it as one word for a convergent orientation they need a place where mixing up and "confusing" an experience as related to their aromanticism when it's more about being ace doesn't get aros yelling at them in the Tumblr tags that they shouldn't tag it aromanticism and they're stupid/horrible hurting aros when they do. They need a place where they can talk about their experiences as very interconnected and inseparable without offending people for whom they are separable. They likely mostly want to learn from allo aros and allo aces what it feels like to be allo so they better understand more of society and don't want to feel alienated from either community of aces as a whole or aros as a whole.
6. I just want some safe wholesome space. Since I joined the aro community on tumblr couple years back, it just feels like the community is defined by discourse, negativity, fights, petty disagreements and drama. I understand, the community is still in diapers and we need to figure ourselves out, but I feel like we've lost the way. Do we need to react to every troll and hater? Is seriously someone offended by them? Why do we legitimise and acknowledge them as part of the discussion? It's like giving an equal platform to scientists and flat earthers. Is this really how we want to be? If you try to think away all the drama stuff, what's left? Is there anything left at all?
7. The freedom to find their place in both ace/aro spaces and for people to allow them to use/not use the SAM as they see fit. Perhaps giving non-SAM aroaces some new language?
8. More community for aro aces. As an aro ace myself I always have to divide time between the aro and ace communities
9. a space where both identities are recognised as equally important - a space where aro identity isn't seen as a subset of ace identity, or deriving from it - somewhere they can express romance and sex repulsion or lack of thereof
10. A term that isn’t AroAce. Something that is not just a combination of aromantic and asexual. But to also not be a sub set of allo aro or allo ace. We shouldn’t need to choose which identity is more important and we shouldn’t have to use the SAM.
11. I think to recognize that there is an aroace spectrum. You can be mlm, wlw, nblnb, etc and still be aroace
12. Content that doesn't rely on "but we still experience x attraction!", tips for living alone/single, also tips for finding/being in a committed relationship such as a qpr (I personally want a relationship but I have no idea how to even start looking for one)
13. I am not aroace so my opinion should not carry as much weight as others but from what my aroace friends irl say, I think we need more recognition for oriented aroaces
14. To be able to talk about the intersection of our identities and how we are uniquely impacted by aphobia
15. Understanding that not all aroaces feel that their two identifiers hold equal value to them (e.g. aromantic as a primary identity with asexuality as a secondary identity). Letting people focus on the one identity over the other is not an exclusion on the other identity; their preferred identity is just more meaningful in their lifes and/or personal growth.
16. Available spaces that are not only sexualised spaces (eg clubs), options to avoid discussion of sex, being hit on if desired (colour code in mixed irl aro-spaces?)
17. Aroaces need a space where they don't have to pick between their aro and ace identities, as well as a space where sex and/or romance repulsed aroaces dont have to deal with romance or sex in any way
18. Idk, not aro ace but I would say recognition as well
19. Full disclosure, I've mostly stopped participating in the ace/aro communities of late (though I haven't stopped reading it) because it felt like every time aroaces spoke up, we were brushed aside or shrugged off because we were the "privileged" ones (in both aro and ace circles). That means I'm a bit out of the loop. I identify far more with my aromanticism than my asexuality, but I've definitely been made to feel that I'm somehow a negative influence on both communities because I technically belong to both. I feel bad enough discussing my identity outside of the ace and aro communities, particularly among queer friends - it feels like when I bring up aroace experiences, it's like I've doused the fire of whatever conversation I was in, and I don't feel like replicating that feeling by trying to talk about it on the 'net, too. So, I guess we mostly need acceptance. We need spaces where alloaros can talk about their experiences without feeling bombarded by aroaces, we need spaces where aroaces can talk about our experiences without feeling like we're marauding on allo experiences, and we need places where both sides can talk about our aromanticism as one community. We as aroaces need to do better about determining when to discuss our issues, and making sure we're discussing them within the communities they're relevant to, as well. I have a pretty solid handle on which aspects of my identity are informed by my aromanticism and which are informed by my asexuality, but that's not a universal experience. Plenty of people have issues separating the two, especially when they're missing both sexual AND romantic attraction. It's hard to determine which of those "missing" pieces are supposed to fit where, and it's important to understand and find a place for these people to post, as well. But ultimately there needs to be more acceptance and openess all around. And I have no idea how we can do all of this.
20. Often aro and ace-ness are inseparable to aroaceness and thus unless something is very specifically about sexual attraction aroaces need to have a sense of flexibility
21. Honestly, as a greyro-ace myself, I feel like aroaces are sort of the face of the community
What are the community needs of non-SAM aros?
1. it's all in the name 'non-SAM' for me. that it is assumed everyone has multiple attractions and/or labels themselves by them. it's use rather implies that the words aro or aromantic or aro-spec /don’t/ automatically include us. it's obviously a perspective change needed here, maybe a new term or descriptor as well? i don’t kno really but i hate the specification of — the expected /need to/ specify — non-SAM.
2. I'm gonna skip the other Qs b/c I don't think I can speak for SAM-using folks. Anyway, as a non-SAM aro I think some of my big things are 1. Recognizing that aromanticism can be its own identity without being split or modified 2. Ending the default assumption that I am ace, identify as ace, and know what the heck ace people need in their communities. 3. Recognizing and respecting aros who don't want or desire QPPs and making it clear that non-QPP friendships and family are not only as good as but can be just as fulfilling as other relationship models. 4. Including non-SAM people as part of our basic and default definitions of asexuality and aromanticism. 5. Making space for discussions of why microlabels don't work for everyone and why the SAM doesn't work for everyone 6. Making an active effort to make aspec spaces more accessible to folks who have just learned about aspec stuff, folks with cognitive and language disabilities, and non-native English speakers. And, like on a broad note, my autism makes it difficult for me to break my identity into tiny pieces. The aspec community's focus on microlabels and the split attraction model, plus the fact that the people participating in discussions often seem to be younger than me and just barely in the process of developing an identity that I've been comfortable in for many years, makes me feel isolated and alienated from the community. When I do participate, the complex and high-entry-level jargon that some members of the community use make it difficult for me to participate in community interactions, which leaves me feeling even more alienated.
3. again, not speaking over other people, but it's important to recognize that aromanticism is a full identity on its own and doesn't inherently require use of the SAM. breaking down the alloaro/aroace binary
4. It seems they want to just talk about aromanticism without having people judge which type of aro they are for if their views count etc. They want more than anyone for aces to be better allies when it comes to LGBTQIA arguing where the A doesn't mean Ally and rather asexual that there needs to be room for the queerness of aromanticism in the LGBTQ+ umbrella. They more than anyone will always need aromantic specific everything - recognition, representation, communities, where no one expects you to also be something else
5. For myself, mostly non binary language and less assumptions that all aros ID with the SAM would be helpful, also acknowlement that non-SAM aros may have differing experiences as a group. This sounds small, and honestly it is, but the unintended consequence of binary language addressing only 'aroaces' and 'aroallos' that I've seen is that spaces can become increasingly polarized between different split attractions and then I've just kind of slipped through the gap in between. It's just my personal experience, of course, but honestly just including this box in the survey is a great start.
6. In-space focuses and new language.
7. More awareness
8. A space where we don't feel the need to express ace/allo identity alongside our aro identity
9. To not get caught in an alloaro Vs aroace war that they can't pick a side for, is probably one.
10. We just need ppl to stop kind of adding us in a sentence in their post or say 'not everyone uses the sam' I wish we could have more discussions on why the sam doesn't really work for us or how we're left out from the community as a whole.
11. Acceptance of just being aro. Aromantic is a whole independent identity despite where it was born.
12. A space to talk about how the ace community has harmed them or made them feel unwelcome without aroaces or alloaces acting like it is an insult
What are the community needs of greyro/ aro-spec folks?
1. Understanding that not everyone is completely aro or that their romantic attraction levels change.
2. providing spaces to talk about experiences with romantic attraction/relationships
3. I'm in this group. I need to feel like it's ok that aromanticism stay a spectrum and some aros are "more ace" (I'm sex-averse etc) than clearly aro (I might choose to date) and to not feel like people are accusing me of being alloromantic when I don't feel alloro. If people make sweeping statements about aros that don't include me or sweeping statements about alloros that do cover my experiences, it is hurtful and invalidating of my identity. And it even can make me doubt myself which isn't fair after I've spent years figuring myself out. I want a happy community that can get along and not hate aces preemptively before any of the select aces they're talking to did anything wrong. Who can forgive aces who make mistakes but who want to be better allies. I'm an ace and an aro-spec person. I'm an ally to aros who aren't gray but all forms of people being an ally takes some learning curve. Understanding that can go a long way.20 hours agoMore awareness21 hours agomore discussion about our orientations, more material for us in general, people getting a platform to share heir experiences. i feel kind of isolated in the aro community because there isnt a lot thats directed at us and our experiences that are neither really aro nor alloa day ago- a space where romance repulsion and simultaneous lack of thereof is acknowledgeda day agoIdk I'm not on the speca day agoMore content for the smaller identities under the spectrum umbrella would probably be nice, also asexuality being jammed together with aromanticism can be annoying sometimes especially if the post only really has to do with one or the other. Visibility in stories and media and such would also be greata day agoacknowledge that not everyone is strictly ace or allo. Like alloaros, allow us to talk about whether we want romantic partners or how our experiences differ from non grayro aros.a day agoN/aa day agoTheir own voice for their complicated feelings about being on the aromantic spectrum.a day agoNot greyro, likewise not my place to comment.2 days agoThe aro community is actually already pretty good about this, but it's cool that romance still happens for some of us and that out voices are allowed to at the very least be on our own space without criticism.2 days agoUh2 days agoArospecs need to be able to talk about their approach to romance, as it is very often very separate from the way allo people experience romantic attraction2 days agoI think both grey and demi aromanticism and asexuality in general need more recognition 2 days ago
4. More awareness
5. more discussion about our orientations, more material for us in general, people getting a platform to share heir experiences. i feel kind of isolated in the aro community because there isnt a lot thats directed at us and our experiences that are neither really aro nor allo
6. a space where romance repulsion and simultaneous lack of thereof is acknowledged
7. More content for the smaller identities under the spectrum umbrella would probably be nice, also asexuality being jammed together with aromanticism can be annoying sometimes especially if the post only really has to do with one or the other. Visibility in stories and media and such would also be great
8. acknowledge that not everyone is strictly ace or allo. Like alloaros, allow us to talk about whether we want romantic partners or how our experiences differ from non grayro aros.
9. Their own voice for their complicated feelings about being on the aromantic spectrum.
10. The aro community is actually already pretty good about this, but it's cool that romance still happens for some of us and that out voices are allowed to at the very least be on our own space without criticism.
11. Arospecs need to be able to talk about their approach to romance, as it is very often very separate from the way allo people experience romantic attraction
12. I think both grey and demi aromanticism and asexuality in general need more recognition
What are the shared needs of these different subgroups within the aro and arospec community?
1. what we need across the board is recognition, compassion, and dissemination.
2. More aro recognition and its own and equal but not completely seperate from ace (for aro aces) community.
3. To discuss their experiences with the lack of romantic attraction and amatonormativity, amongst other General arospec issues
4. safe spaces to talk about being aro and all of the ways it intersects with other aspects of our identity; representation and advocacy
5. Neutral aro-spec spaces where all intersectionality is equally accepted but also not the main topic or qualifier; recognition of a broad range of experiences; recognition of specific language and acknowledgment of their existences; facilitated ability to speak about more specific or 'niche' topics
6. Recognition in queer spaces and healthy dialogue about language.
7. i think we all want a platform for our specific topics and we want recognition, but also community
8. A space where romance repulsion is acknowledged and respected - a space where aro identity is prioritised, no matter what other identities go along with it, if there are any at all
9. To move forward in our activism to make aromanticism more well known and more accepted in society?? And to have a safe place to go after a day of dealing with amatonormativity and aphobia.
10. To make ourselves exist outside the definition of asexual
11. I think all the communities/identities need to recognize that there is a problem. If we unite with each other and have so much love and understanding in the form of unity, I think a lot of these problems will resolve themselves.
12. Visibility?
13. make sure we understand each other's experiences and what makes everyone feel included / excluded. We need to make that we sure we own up if we excluded someone, and that we try to fix it.
14. Visibility is my greatest concern for all aspects of aro and arospec problems.
15. Aces need to stop speaking for them. Aro-spec and aro people can speak for themselves on their own experiences. Additionally, aroaces need to focus more on the aro identity (whether it's primary or secondary to them) when it involves aro discourse. They can have a focus on their ace identity only with the exception that both identities are heavily tied to each other and both identities are discussed. Again, this is specifically for aro-specific discourse.
16. Discussion of amatonormativity, experiences with pressure to find partners
17. A creation of a unified aro space that includes and supports *anybody* identifying as aro or arospec
18. The validity of aro identities shaping gender identities. I believe I'm nb in large part because of aromanticism.
19. All four of these groups need visibility and more in person communities
20. Allo aces need to stop taking over everything is the overarching problem when you think about it, they also need to stop throwing aros under the bus
21. We ALL need more visibility. We need voices that aren't reliant on the ace community to speak for us as an afterthought, and I say that AS an ace. We need to talk about aromanticism as a whole. And we need to do so proudly and informatively. I've noticed that it's really, really hard to talk about aromanticism without making it sound like I'm demonizing romantic attraction, and that's a dangerous treading ground within the queer community. There's been a lot of negatively portraying queer romantice from outside of the community, and we need to make sure we're not stepping on those land mines, but we do need our voices heard on aromanticism and amatonormativity, too. Also, we need to hold fast to QPRs and squishes (and, imo, aplatonic) and not let those ideas get swept out with the discourse trash. We also need to support both the aros who want and have QPRs, and the aros who want nothing to do with them. I see a lot of support for aros in various forms of non-romantic (and sometimes romantic) relationships, but very little for aros who choose to fly solo, and what that means in a world that expects you to pair up.
22. I do think we need to be more openly vocal about our separateness from the ace community, though it seems to be tearing aroaces apart at the seams
23. A space to discuss aromanticism - however people experience it - in a space were others are opening and welcoming. Possibly also older members of the community giving advice to newer members who are struggling to come to terms with their aromanticism in a society so focused on romance
24. I feel like a lot of aros are frustrated with their experiences being mislabeled as ace experiences, or having the assumption that aro and ace experiences are basically the same
How do we meet all of these needs within an online space?
1. make sure you aren’t in an echochamber? share/create content for orientations other than your own? be kind? remember that when we're fighting it's kind of over scraps and we deserve better? i'm not sure honestly but i really think a lot of this comes down to perspective. plus remember the block button exists lol. i'm talking about things all on a personal, individual level and i don’t kno how to effect anything otherwise. how about a content creation week where the subject is an orientation other than your own? with emphasis on asking questions to get shit right. it'd be a learning experience that builds community. i can't think of a thing to answer this question on a larger scale ://
2. We accept that some people see their aro and/or ace identitie/s seperate and some don't. Also that some only have one of these identities. And we spread aro recognition.
3. Equal education and resources for all parts of the aro spectrum
4. Cut it out with the pack instinct. Aces and aros snarling at eachother really freaks out aroaces.
5. it's impossible to curate a monolithic online space that will meet the needs of every single member of the aro community. what's important is acknowledging your own biases and hearing out the perspectives of others who differ from you, and not generalizing your own experiences/needs/perspectives to the community as a whole. we can create more subgroup-oriented spaces all we want, but at the end of the day we're still part of the same larger aro community and in order for that to work out the best thing we can do is just listen to each other.
6. Appropriate tagging has been brought up before, perhaps a reworked umbrella tag system? Again more neutral spaces; appropriate tagging for repulsion and aversion and on the other end acceptance of a variety of topics (i.e. some people will be talking about sex and that's good and healthy, as long as it's tagged there shouldn't be an issue with that); more specific and intersectional spaces; less verbal conflation of ace and aro though I think that's been getting better? Then again a big problem is the aroace split between two communities. I unfortunately do not have any ideas for that
7. Provide and Aro-specific online space similar to AVEN.
8. trying to give a more equal focus to different subgroups maybe? coming together and caring about those whose experiences are slightly different from ours and giving them a platform too. encouraging diversity
9. i'm not sure but it starts by making spaces outside of discourse. blogs like "aro-soulmate-project" are especially important to me because they address not only intra and outside community issues, but because they create aro identity at the same time people interact.
10. Idk put everything in the tag it belongs in (aroace content in aro, ace and aroace tags, general aro content in aro aroace and alloaro tags, and alloaro content in aro and alloaro tags, etc) and stop harassing each other. Groups might benefit from ace chat channels and allosexual chat channels? But idk if that's too divisive in some opinions
11. Group chats? More posts combining the communities? Spreading the love to everybody everywhere!
12. Open discussion
13. Since aro communities are extremely small and have been largely ignored-even by the a-spec community-it is up to the a-spec (yes, this includes alloaces) community to be more inclusive when making a-spec positive/information posts while also making more efforts to reblog diverse aro discourse so that aro people get a chance to speak.
14. Different tags/ smaller chatrooms. Probably tags people can follow or block
15. Better tagging systems, breaking down assumptions and not projecting one's one experience of identity onto everybody else who happens to be aro, creating sub-communities that are specifically suited for a specific subgroup's needs while still being united as the general aro community
16. On tumblr, proper tagging of content.
17. I think something that would actually help is like an aroace specific forum. We have arocalypse but that seems to be mostly alloaros and I want a forum where I can be aroace and not have to pick sides
18. Tag things accordingly
19. As I mentioned before, I'm not really involved in community discussions beyond reading about them, but coming up with a standard tagging system seems to be a start.
20. Often these needs have been met, though there could be a better job of say tagging 'romance' for repulsed aros and we need to open up space for both romo repulsed and positive to speak at the same time
21. I don't know. The internet is too big to manage. I think of the internet as more of many different spaces
How do we meet all of these needs within an in-person space?
1. Represent everyone, let people speak, let people correct you, aim to make friends, remember that we're all under the A together.
2. Same as above
3. Stop generalizing and start being inclusive with language. There’s a big difference.
4. Listen, if no one ever walks up to me and says "Hey, [name], you're ace right?" just because I told them I was aro and they forgot, I will be happy.
5. i suppose the same rules apply. listening, providing spaces for subgroups to talk about specific issues, etc.
6. Similar to previous answer, but spaces advertised as neutral or with multiple groups need to be more explicit in inclusion of a variety of experiences and topics. There are ways to manage this so everyone is in understanding and comfortable, namely just good communication (hence being explicit) and systems of feedback
7. Queer spaces just need to be informed that the usual a-spec narrative is not the only one. But this will change as people share their experiences.
8. more aro awareness alongside but also differentiated from ace awareness, and all this coupled with a focus on acceptance rather than identification
9. A case by case basis? I guess? It'd depend on the scope of the space
10. Booths at Pride recognizing the lesser known orientations. Doesn’t even have to be booths! Pins, stickers, t-shirts work just fine. Maybe a logo for a-spec, aro-spec, and aroace staying that we are all united.
11. have info that includes all of us eg. pamphlets don't have the ace flag everywhere and acknowledge that their are aspecs who experience romantic or sexual attraction, and that not everyone uses the sam.
12. I have only come across one aspec space in-person but it is in the form of a discussion group and everyone is allo ace so I feel extremely unwelcome. I wish there were more resources about aromanticism I could bring to these groups.
13. For one: language is important. Renaming everything to a-spec meetups/groups instead of ace meetups/groups makes the other identity more welcomed and higher possibilities of growing the community. Again, there are more aces out there than aros at the moment, so it is up to those ace groups to make it more inclusive to all a-spec people. We're a community in this together wheter you feel a certain identity or not. That's what being Queer's all about.
14. Create an aro-space first... Then events for sub-groups only where they can talk amongst themselves but also community events
15. Have a large variety of arospec spaces to choose from so that everyone can have their needs met
16. Talk about all aspects, let people voice their experiences and find common ground
17. I don't participate in in-person communities. Partly because I'm not out to more than just a few friends, and partly because I wouldn't want to go to one and be the stereotypical aroace. I feel both far too representative of both the aro and ace communities, and also not part of either. And thanks to the discourse, I'm not convinced I'd be welcome at a queer meetup at all. In addition, I've already mentioned before that just bringing up my experiences as either an ace or an aro tends to be a conversation-killer. So, I guess it rolls back around to visibility. Making others aware of our existence so that when aro experiences DO come up in in-person conversations, we can avoid the uncomfortable, awkward silences that follow. And I think that can only be done by talking about them.
18. I'll eat my hat the day that I manage to find a sizable in-person space for aces or aros
How do we reconcile conflicting needs?
1. I believe this question is far too subjective to each instance that has and will pop up. Which is no help unfortunately.
2. We accept that sometimes someone needs these needs and someone else needs other needs. Also we ask what people's needs are before we assume their needs.
3. By talking out our issues civilly and talking about what bothers us so we can accommodate and adapt as needed if needed, and filter out people who just make the community toxic.
4. Live and let live. Talk it out. Find a solution rather than growing increasingly angry. Literally anything that’s not cocooning away in indignation, we are supposed to be a community.
5. i don't think our needs actually conflict, for the most part. with the exception of greyro/arospec folks needing space to talk about romance and romance repulsed folks needing to get away from it. but that can be solved by tagging things (at least in the case of online spaces). i think a lot of our perceived conflict comes from the conflation of different issues. for example, giving alloaros room to exist apart from asexuality and giving aroaces room to navigate that awkward space in between aren't inherently mutually exclusive. i recognize that striking that sort of balance is easier said than done, but i think if it were easy we wouldn't be having this discussion at all. we're a diverse population and our needs are ALWAYS going to differ. but we're also always going to overlap in a lot of ways, which is why the aro community exists to begin with.
6. Imagine you have a spoiled child. You can do everything in your power to give them what they need. Do you think it will be ever enough? Oh, but what's worse, by concentrating on the spoiled child, you completely forgot you have a second one, starving in the corner.
7. Give each person a choice in the language they use and don't force anyone into an identity/stereotype of aspec experience that doesn't fit. Just listen to people.
8. By giving space for both and working out compromises or plans of action
9. Definitely not fuckin argue for weeks and attack one another, discourse only fragments our tiny movement
10. Set up a time for when allo aro can talk about their experience and the way their identities interact. This lets aroace choose whether they want to come or not. The usual meeting should be a time where any aroace, allo aro, and non-sam using aro can talk about being aro. Or for aros to just meet and interact.
11. a group discussion where everyone can share their experiences but also safe spaces for aroaces / alloaces / nonsam aros /grayros to talk so ppl can discuss if someone hurt them or made them feel excluded in the group discussion and so they can talk about things that are specific to their smaller communities
12. Open discussion and properly tagging things
13. Aro people have been patient. Ace and ace-spec people need to recognize that their exclusive behaviors are mirroring the same horrible mentality that exclusionists in the LGBT+ have. Also recognize that ignoring (or consistently forgetting) the identity is a form of the excluding that identity in regards to posts that are suppose to be a-spec/Queer/LGBTIA+ positive/informative.
14. Respect and communication, separate spaces when necessary
15. Creating sub-communities that can prioritize a specific group's needs in that space while not conflicting with the general aro community.
16. Idk like listen to eachother?
17. The people who have a problem avoid? Idk
18. honestly don't know. I absolutely understand the frustrations of alloaros getting ace posts in the aro tags, and I understand the frustrations of aroaces posting their experiences and being told those tags don't belong. I think the ace community as a whole needs to be made aware that the aro tag is not a dumping ground for ace-specific posts, and that if they want to include support and positivity and include the aro tag, then the post needs to INCLUDE US. I think a lot of frustration on all sides right now is that aromanticism comes off as asexuality's afterthought, and I don't think any of us as aros feel that way. I don't think we need a full break from the ace community, and I think we need to stop blaming aroaces when we make relevant posts to the aro tag, since I suspect quite a bit of this issue is from people who legitimately don't realize that aro tags are not the same as ace tags (i.e. ace positivity blogs that post something relevant to ace experiences and think they're being inclusive by "including" aros, because "we're all aspec, just swap out the 'sexual attraction' for 'romantic attraction'!"). But I, as an ace, am of the opinion that the ace community as a whole needs a solid kick in the pants to get them to work with us on cleaning up the tags and acknowledging that aros aren't just aces with a word swap, that we have our own significantly different concerns and ways to navigate the world that aces can't understand. But here's the problem, too. The ace community is one of the larger "aro" voices right now because the aro community is really quiet. Yes, we have our voices, but if you go looking for ace spaces, you find them. You find them in spades. You go looking for aro spaces? You have to dig. You almost have to know what you're looking for before you can find it. I see aros submitting asks on ace blogs, asking where to go to find aro-specific blogs, and there's always only a handful of suggestions. I think a lot of the reason aroaces seem so visible is because we -are- in the ace spaces, talking, and the ace spaces are big. The aromantic community's biggest priority right now is to grow and be heard.
19. fuck idk tbh the most we can really do is post about it and hope people see and listen
#aromantic#alloaro#aroace#arospec#greyro#greyromantic#non-sam aro#aro#long post#this ace blabbers#Community Discussion
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Recently, I queued a post on my blog reading: “Normalize aro people who don’t use the split attraction model.”
Yeah, I thought. Good idea. It’s important to remember that not everyone uses it.
After that, however, I started noticing how difficult it is to word aspec discussions in an inclusive way with that in mind. So, I decided to write an article about it. But, since I do use the SAM, it started to seem disingenuous to do so without asking for the perspectives of those who don’t. So I made a google docs survey. I’m glad I did, because I got a lot of perspectives I wasn’t expecting.
Wait – back up – what even is the split attraction model?
The split attraction model (SAM) is a way of conceptualising attraction based on splitting it up into different types of attraction people can experience.
This is generally talked about as the split between sexual and romantic attraction, but many people also split the attraction they experience into other categories such as platonic, sensual, and aesthetic.
It was created by and for the aspec community, but people who are not aspec use it as well.
For example someone might be bisexual homoromantic i.e. They might experience sexual attraction to two or more genders and romantic attraction to the same gender.
People who have the same romantic and sexual attraction sometimes use it too – because they experience or conceptualise these attractions as separate. For example, it is very common for people to identify as asexual and aromantic separately rather than asexual, aromantic, or aroace as one identity.
However, the SAM is just a model and it doesn’t make sense for everyone to use it. This is not the way attraction inherently is – it is the way it is helpful for many people to interpret, understand, and explain their attraction(s).
So why use it in the first place if it doesn’t apply to everyone?
The SAM is a really helpful for interpreting and explaining attraction. It gives people the language to say: I am attracted to this person in this way, but not in this one.
I actually think it would be useful for understanding and working through feelings for people who aren’t aspec. Sometimes I explain this model to my allo friends when they talk about finding somebody attractive but not wanting a relationship with them, or vice versa.
But for many aspec people, it’s not just useful, but necessary. There is no real alternative for people who experience different attractions to different groups of people. I couldn’t even begin to explain how I experience attraction, being aromantic bisexual, without using the split attraction model.
It’s also a really easy way to explain what asexuality and aromanticism are. While we may not use the term “split attraction model,” it’s become the default way to explain what aromanticism even is to beginners. How else do you explain the concept of a romantic orientation than by opposing it from a sexual one?
If you do experience your attractions as split, the SAM can be a lifeline. Suddenly, what you’re feeling makes sense! You finally have the language to talk about it, and that’s vital for a large part of the community. But if it doesn’t make sense for you, or you just don’t want to use it for any other reason… that’s where we start to encounter problems.
Okay so why don’t people use it?
There are all sorts of reasons why someone may not want to use the SAM.
One reason that I have already alluded to, is that not everyone experiences “sexual and romantic attraction,” but “attraction,” which they may label using one of these terms, other terms, or not at all.
If we forget for the moment that the SAM exists, we might think that the corresponding identity for homosexual, bisexual, heterosexual, etc, is asexual. This is how the term came to exist in the first place. It follows, then, that asexual people who don’t use the SAM may view their orientation in this way. The split attraction model then turns this into: “bisexual = bisexual and biromantic; asexual = asexual and aromantic.”
But, the fact that the SAM does exist complicates things. Other asexuals who don’t use the SAM don’t understand asexuality as “asexual and aromantic,” but chose not to adopt a romantic orientation at all, or do not identify with the concept of romantic attraction in the first place.
By the same token, we get people who identify solely as aromantic. This could be for any number of reasons: perhaps because they identify more with that label, they relate more to the experiences of the aromantic community, or they find that the concept aromanticism describes their experiences better.
There’s an assumption that people who identify as solely “asexual,” or “aromantic,” are basically “asexual and aromantic,” but this is not accurate for everyone and that assumption can be forced onto people, which is damaging.
There are also people who use some variation of “aroace” or “asexual aromantic,” as one identity, in the same vein as the way ”gay” and “bi” mean one orientation and not a combination of two. This is likely due to the fact that “asexual” and “aromantic” also exist as separate identities, it makes sense to acknowledge that for these people they mean both.
There are also people who don’t use it simply as a matter of preference, or have specific problems with the SAM, and don’t use it for those reasons. Some of these are:
Don’t relate to/ feel a connection with the language of the SAM
Do experience split attractions but don’t find the way the SAM splits attraction to be helpful
Find the SAM too confusing/ inaccessible
Identify with the aspec community for reasons that the SAM doesn’t help explain, e.g inability to determine between attractions
Okay so some people use it and some people don’t. What’s the problem?
Since the first instances of it’s use, the SAM was never meant to apply to everyone, just to those who find it useful. And yet, because so many people in the aspec community need to use it by virtue of the fact that there is no other option, in much of the community it is treated as a default. Our discussions and positivity posts tend to be based on this model of attraction as a given premise. For example, I recently looked at and reblogged this introductory brochure. I didn’t see a problem with it at the time, and I still think it’s a great attempt at aspec 101. But it largely ignores the existence of aspecs who don’t use the SAM.
I see this as a problem for a couple of reasons:
It is alienating to people who don’t use the SAM. I asked in my survey if aspecs who don’t use the SAM felt excluded in aspec discussions and the vast majority responded “yes” or “sometimes.” As one respondent to my survey put it: this community is “not a monolith.” It is not accurate to treat it as one.
We’re potentially alienating or confusing baby aspecs. If your first introduction to asexuality and/or aromanticism is using a model that doesn’t make sense to you – it might make the community less accessible.
This convention of explaining the ace and/or aro spectrums in terms of the SAM creates pressure for aspecs who don’t use the SAM to explain their identities to outsiders, newbies, and intra community discussions in terms of the SAM when they may not want to.
I don’t think this is an intentional effort to erase anyone. Partly, it’s because when you do conceptualise attraction as split, it becomes really difficult to understand it in any other way.
As well as this, as one respondent to my survey pointed out: it’s a reaction to exclusionists – the discourse around the SAM is exhausting and we’re left having to defend it’s existence. This can make us forget that it’s just an option, and not the only one at that.
Well what do you want me to do about it?
One respondent to the survey suggested we treat the SAM like “queer” in that it’s fine as a personal identity choice and to use about community discussions to a certain extent but to be mindful that it’s not okay to just assume everyone identifies with it. I thought that was a really good suggestion.
I also think it might be a good idea, when introducing people to the concept of asexuality and/or aromanticism, to present the SAM as just one option and not the default. Unfortunately, this has the potential drawback of making introductions even more confusing. We already bombard newbies with a lot of information at once, and saying:
“Well there’s a model of attraction which splits sexual and romantic attraction so if you think you experience one but not the other or both but differently, or neither but differently you can use that OR you might not find it helpful to think of attraction in that way at all in which case maybe just look at a list of labels and check which your experience seems to relate to most?”
Well, it might just end up being more confusing. Personally, I think it’s worth it.
At the very least, I want to encourage people to stop making blanket statements like: “sexual orientations are different from romantic orientations.” Because, yes, they can be. Or they can not be.
Terminology:
Allo: used here to indicate both allosexual and alloromantic OR allosexual as a non SAM descriptor.
Allosexual: the opposite of asexual; not on the asexual spectrum.
Aspec: an umbrella term for anyone on the asexual spectrum and/or aromantic spectrum
Notes:
At the time of writing this, I have only received 22 useable responses to the survey of non SAM using aspecs. This sample is not large enough to represent every aspec who doesn’t use the SAM, and is likely skewed towards people who interact with the aspec community on tumblr, since that’s where I posted it.
One respondent to the survey had issues with my use of the word aspec (on the asexual and/or aromantic spectrum) as it implies there is one aspec community rather than an asexual spectrum community and an aromantic spectrum community.
I used aspec because there is no other word that includes arospecs, acespecs, and aroacespecs who don’t use the SAM and the survey could apply to all of them. I continue to use it here, because there is no other word that includes the arospec, acespec, and aroacespec communities. The fact is that for some people aromanticism and asexuality are split and for some they are not. Some people are in both communities, some are in just one and for some being ace and aro is one single identity that they don’t think of as separate.
Another respondent mentioned concerns about the SAM sexualising queer identities. I have not addressed that here because I don’t feel comfortable mentioning it without clarifying that I don’t agree that this is the case, but I have addressed it on this blog.
I should also clarify that since I do use the split attraction model, while I’ve made an effort to hear from and include people who don’t, it should be noted that my perspective may be biased and I cannot speak for those who don’t use the SAM.
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[screenshots of a tumblr post: @multishipper-baby asked: Hey, I have a question! Can I identify as a bi aroace if I'm gray-romantic? I know it's still in the aro spectrum, but I don't want to make other aroaces uncomfortable and use a label that's not mine
/end ask
@biaroace answered:I’ll start off by saying that I cannot control what you or anyone else calls themselves. However, I will say that I personally wouldn’t be comfortable with someone aro/ace-spec [a-spec for short] using “bi aroace” for the sake of brevity alone (and this goes for any other flavor of oriented aroace).
“Why? Ace-spec people call themselves ace all the time. How is this any different?” That’s because the dynamics of the ace community are very different: asexuals are prioritized within their own orientation. They don’t have to fight to be recognized within their own label. They don’t have to question whether a post employing the term “asexual” includes them or not. They aren’t hesitantly listed off fifth in a list of possible definitions at best and outright excluded at worst whenever someone asks “what’s an asexual?”. Rather, those were the plights of a-spec people.
I believe that’s the very reason a-specs made their own terms, and adopted the terms of the dominant majority (aro/ace) as shorthand. It’s perfectly justifiable! It’s admirable, even! But to transfer this practice onto oriented aroace labels would be a grave mistake, because as of now, we hold nowhere near the influential power aces and aros hold within their own communities. If anything, it is a-specs who are prioritized over us. A-specs who are taken as being the more “acceptable” meaning of bi aroace (as opposed to us weird oriented aroace heathens with our ~non-romantic/sexual unspecified attraction~). A-specs who are the face of our very orientation despite employing it as a mere shorthand. You’re not sticking it to the big man by claiming “bi aroace” as an a-spec person. You’re repeating exactly what was done to you. In order to help us be rid of this dynamic, I encourage you to leave “bi aroace” to oriented aroaces and instead use the equally cool alternate shorthands provided by your very own aro/ace-spec communities. For instance, bi-grayro ace could act as a neat shorthand for you (plus it’s got the same amount of syllables!) :>
Finally, I’d like to thank you for having taken the time to send this message. Your mindfulness as an ally is greatly appreciated, and I hope my response cleared things up!!
/end answer
@babyferrettails reblogs with: Yes! I’m sick of people saying that someone who uses an “orientation+aroace” term to describe themselves are probably grayace or grayro. It completely undermines oriented aroaces which is unfortunately the norm in the community already. @biaroace I’m glad you took the time to type this up it explains it really well!
/end reblog
@aceexplorations reblogs with: So I️ understand where you peeps are coming from. I️ really do. But as someone who would like to identify as a lesbian aroace but can only get up the courage to identify as an aroace who desires a long term relationship but only with other women, I️ really don’t mind people who are aro/asespec identifying as a label-aroace.My reason is this: At the moment you never hear of ANYONE identifying as label-aroace and as a result anytime anyone does people, all people, question how that is possible. The more people use the label the faster others will get used to hearing it. And as long as people remember to include an explanation for how someone who is aroace and not aroacespec can be label-aroace I️ think getting people more familiar with the label can only help.Plus, I️ don’t believe in telling somebody how they should or should not identify. They should do whatever makes them feel the most comfortable.
/end caption]
Yeah... I'm actually incredibly uncomfortable with this push to limit who can identify how, especially in this context. I’m tagging @multishipper-baby to make sure he can see multiple perspectives on this, and thank you @aceexplorations for speaking up as well.
For one, the orientation+aroace format was something people were using before "oriented aroace" came about, and there are still people who identify this way who do not specifically identify as an oriented aroace. It'd be one thing if it was a natural progression of the term changing to mean something more specifically, but forcefully trying to push people out of a term that has been open to them before "oriented aroace" became a named, defined thing does not at all sit well with me.
For two, there are many reasons - all extremely valid - why some choose to verbally identify, identify only as, or in many cases shorten to aro/ace when they are aspec. For example, can be easier than getting into an even more detailed explanation and so plain exhaust them less. It could even mean that they feel more comfortable setting boundaries in not having to discuss personal matters that may make them uncomfortable. We've long been pushing that aromantic and asexual can absolutely be umbrella terms and that you don't have to identify as aspec or some certain aspec term if you don't want, aren't comfortable with, don't prefer, or are unsure where you otherwise stand. To limit that now after we've worked really hard to make these terms open and welcoming to folk who are constantly wondering if they belong... I can't tell you how many times I've seen demia folk asking if they're welcome in the community, and graya in particular was hit extremely violently by exclusionism (at one point, basically dying out as a known label and only recently being talked about again).
For three, it’s long been the tagline of the queer community (perhaps particularly for nonbinary and aspec people, but I am currently most involved in those communities) that labels are, first and foremost, for ourselves. Do we feel a connection to labeling a certain way, even if it’s merging or stringing together multiple terms? Does it help us communicate how we feel? Does it bring us a sense of relief to use the term? Then we should use it (excluding instances of cultural appropriation or other harmful actions)! I am not seeing a reason here why it harms either oriented aroaces or non-oriented aroace orientation+aroaces to both be using the format orientation+aroace.
Finally... I'm sorry, I'm just not at all understanding the point of limiting who can identify as an orientation+aroace. When we're creating strict and limiting turns, we have to ask ourselves: why? What purpose is this serving? Does it help more people than it hurts? Is it unnecessarily leaving people out/making people feel unwelcome and/or invalid?
Honestly, I understand the argument so little, I can’t even make a point against it, nor figure out what the heck question I should be asking. The aspec spectrums simply do not exist in some sort of hierarchy as you are implying. Some folk may have more visibility than others (due to the size of the community, how long they’ve been pushing for education - not due to a particular in community effort to maliciously destabilize ourselves), and it’s true that right now there’s a lot of valid discussions going on about how people need to be careful with their words (stop saying aromantic when you mean asexual), but nobody was gatekeeping orientation+aroace until these ideas on your blog started coming up.
I saw someone trying to argue that they wanted oriented aroace to have full ownership over orientation+aroace because they wanted it to be immediately clear to people that they were specifically aroace and not graya, to which, I’m sorry, but I have to call bullshit. Orientation labels honestly say very little about us and the true complexities of our feelings, and they work well that way!
For example, someone who identifies as bi may be someone: with a strong preference for one gender over another, someone who’s only attracted to a specific amount of genders, someone who’s attracted to multiple genders but may not even include one of the expected binary genders, someone with no discernable preference for one gender over another, someone who’s attracted to all genders but considers gender an important component of their attraction, etc. Someone saying they’re bi doesn’t tell you anything beyond the fact that they’re attracted to two or more genders!
Aro and ace have long been this way as well. Even aroace is as well! There are so many details and intricacies to our feelings, desires, repulsions, aversions, preferences, wants, etc. that no label could possibly encompass all important aspects of our identity! At some point, there’s gotta be a breakdown where we realize that labels are a quick summary of how we feel, not the end all, be all of who we are or how we’re allowed to feel.
Aspec people calling themselves aromantic, asexual, or aroace all know there is a tradeoff to not outright specifying the spectrum part of their identity, and they are making the choice for themselves that they are okay and comfortable with what that entails. It should not be up to us to try and shame them out of that. As aspec people, we are not taking anything from each other by using our own community’s terms!!! It’s a difficult amatonormative, sexnormative, heteronormative world we must navigate. Our terms and our community should make it easier for us to navigate these minefields, not create more minefields to trip each other up in.
I’d be completely fine if “oriented aroace” itself was a term to specifically be defined in a strict manner. I am not okay with the bold claims that oriented aroaces somehow own the pattern of merging together identity terms in non-standard ways to describe themselves, specifically owning oriented+aroace, of which I have an incredibly hard time believing they invented.
So far, I’m not seeing how it harms us to keep orientation+aroace something open. However, I am hearing from people who are hurt by trying to make it more exclusive.
#gatekeeping#identity policing#exclusion#excluding#community discussions#aroace#oriented aroace#anti graya#anti grayro#anti grace#anti acespec#anti arospec#anti aspec#identity#yikes i didn't want to believe it when shades of grayro mentioned it#but this leaves me feeling very gross
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No canon straight characters; using labels needed for canonicity? and period accuracy in fanfic
These are some random thoughts I have on couple of posts I've seen on my dash lately, so I'm just randomly writing down my thoughts:
1) most characters are not actually straight on canon because they don't specifically say 'I'm straight' or 'i'm only romantically and sexually attracted to people of the so called opposite gender'.
This is very true. In fact, most character never identify as straight unless there are non-straight or trans characters in the work as a counterpoint. Grace Adler says she's straight. Jennifer Walters is not lesbian. Peter whatever from Doubt is still straight when dating a trans woman. Kenzi from Lost Girl reciprocates Bo's coming out.
I recently wrote a long meta on another sideblog about how a character never identifies as straight and how the writing and portrayal lead to credible non-straight interpretations even though I know he's supposed to be straight.
So basically, straight characters are usually explicitly straight when it's known that not everyone is. If there exists character who are trans or not straight, other characters then might also express their straightness in response.
But mostly it's cisheteronormativity that makes us accept that unless they state otherwise, they are supposed to be cis and straight.
(Of course this gets complicated when we talk about rep bcus 'they didn't say they aren't x or y' doesn't really count as proper rep. But it's complicated, but like headcanons are fair game. Like, 'you shouldn't hc this canon straight character as not straight' isn't a good argument, because few character actually *are* canon straight. Most characters just have the potential to be or are in m/f pairings but that doesn't mean that straight is the only thing they can be.)
2) Labels are great. Labels tell people without a doubt who that character is and it is incredibly validating to see characters identify the same way you do (shoutout to Aled Last!). But does a character need to use a label to properly count as having this identity, if there is strong coding and word of god?
I'm conflicted. I really am. Because you can do a decent job of making characters gay/lesbian/m-spec without necessarily using a label (although not using it can be obnoxious, especially with m-spec characters), that's not necessarily the same with a-spec characters. Because there's not enough rep for us for people to read in and accept the subtext/coding. (Canon ace, coded aro is another issue but that's semi besides the point)
Here I'm mainly thinking of Raphael Santiago in books vs TV show, and comparing 2 word of god demi characters; Rivka of Mangoverse and Julian Blackthorn of The Dark Artifices.
So, book!Raphael for a long time was barely/maybe coded aroace and after he was killed off he became a word of god aroace through twitter. Then came 2017 and the tv show and new book appearances and suddenly he got to verbally say ace (and/or aro) things without using the label. I haven't read-read the books with that canonization yet but it seems to be very clear now that he is sex and romance repulsed aroace. Great.
The tv show canonized his aceness before the books did but they did it without using labels and basically making a mess of his romantic orientation (is he still aro? Arospec? Alloromantic who just didn't feel rom attraction much? He never did pursue a romantic relationship with Izzy after the addiction mess even though they acknowledged that they cared for each other, but was it romantic from Raph? We don't know! *throws hands in the air in frustration*).
As much as I love show!Raphael, "I'm just not interested in sex." isn't necessarily the best way to establish aceness. Mostly because if you google 'not interested in sex', you get articles on libido and how to increase it, with one article talking about aceness, but not in the title. But the fact that Raphael says he's always been like this, that he's never pressured into having sex and is at peace with his orientation does, to me, make it good rep. I still kinda wish he'd used a label though.
Then the demi rep: neither Rivka nor Julian identifies as demi in text. Shira Glassman didn't at first realize she was writing Rivka in a demi way, in fact the backcover identifies her as straight (kinda as a 'there will be no romantic tension between Rivka and Shulamit' way, similar to Bo and Kenzi in section 1). But when people mentioned that she seems like a hetro demi, Shira embraced that and while the world doesn't do labels the way we do, she is still demi. I love her and I am happy she exists and she is accepted demi rep.
Now, Julian is a different thing. In TDA, he is 17, the year is 2012 and the Internet exists. After the 2nd book, people started speculating that Julian is demi based on how he thinks about never being attracted to anyone but Emma, and how he had started to feel different from his peers when he didn't start experiencing attraction like they did. Someone asked about this from Cassandra Clare and she answered the ask privately, saying that if he was a modern, non-Shadowhunter teenager and he had access to information about the identity, that he would identify as demisexual. The issue is that considering the timeframe (2012) and everything about his situation, he doesn't have access to that label so he doesn't use it.
So. Here we have a canon demi character, based on coding and word of god who has semi realistic reason for not knowing the label and thus not identifying with it, even though he would if he could. But a lot of people don't want to accept that. And that's where my issues come from: Julian says and thinks some very demi things, and to me doesn't do anything that invalidates his deminess. Why is that not enough? Like, I absolutely want him to use that label, I want to read him say it and find comfort in it. But why is his character not demi rep enough because he doesn't use the word?
Rivka has similar reasons for not having the label (not our world and the terminology doesn't exist) and while I doubt there are that much overlap between the 2 fandoms, I am curious about the difference. Neither one is not identifying as demi because they aren't demi, they don't identify as demi because they don't know the identity exists. Yet both are still demi characters.
How much does a character have to emphasize that they've only ever been attracted to one person/very few people, with the author validating that reading, before they are acceptable demi rep?
Another point is Princeless: Raven the Pirate Princess. That one has at least one demi character and maybe two acearo characters but they don't use labels. I love them all, but I feel uncertain about talking about Cid as an aroace character because she hasn't been talked about in that way the way Jayla has been. And I love Quinn and I cried when I read that the (pirate) ship has characters who identify as demisexual in a creator letter, but again, no one is using a-spec labels. It's frustrating. But it doesn't invalidate the rep.
3) I think the level of knowledge characters have on queerness should be an in-character discussion. Like, I've written characters as demi without the character using the label; I've written characters discovering a label; I have one fic where there's little possibility of the character having knowledge of the identity (because it's possible the label hasn't been coined yet). I try to stay in character about whether the character would know or have use for label and keep in mind the timeframe. There's a demi pairing I can't really write because neither characters exist in 2006 and beyond. Someone once complained that a book published in 2003 didn't describe the character as demi when the label hadn't yet been created while asexual worked as an umbrella term which included demis, so it still makes sense that the character would identify as asexual.
I don't think it's wrong to have a character be very knowledgeable about queer things if that's what you want to write, whether or not that's in character or realistic within the timeframe. Fanfic is about self indulgeance after all.
Some of that relates to what I'm in the mood to write. My magnum opus is 'this character is demi in all 78 eps of the show, but he'll only figure it out towards the beginning of the last season, just because I want that' and then I have another that's 'screw it, he has a better idea about his queerness but realizes the full picture in s4'.
I do try to be period accurate and think about whether or not the character would have access to the term. But sometimes I just want to have my faves identifying the way I want them to.
4) These are some very random, semi connected thoughts and I'm not even quite sure what the point was. I just feel like writing more about these things.
I am interested in discussing these issues. How much coding does a character need to be accepted as proper rep if the label isn't used? Can rep be valid if a random person reading it doesn't realize that there is that specific coding? If the book has queer readers, is there more leeway (sp) to not using the label, assuming that people reading a book with bi and trans characters or an f/f might also pick up the demi/ace/aro coding? If the author unknowingly wrote a demi character, does it still count if they accept that reading of the character and keep writing them as demi?
Anyway that was a lot of randomness.
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Is it ok for someone who is ace to use the word queer? I had thought so, but recently one of my friends posted something saying it wasn't ok because it had never been used as a slur against us specifically, and therefore it's not ours to reclaim and use. Do you have any information about whether it has or hasn't been used that way or whether we should or shouldn't use it? Thank you!!!
Honestly this is such a complex question, there’s so much going on here.
Queer, as used by the Queer Community (that is people who self-identify under the queer umbrella), considers it to be an umbrella for everyone who isn’t straight, cis or perisex. So going by that, asexual people would definitely be included (and usually are) under that identity. The entire point of using ‘queer’ as an umbrella term is that it’s supposed to be reclaimed and inclusive.
That said a lot of people are uncomfortable with the term ‘queer’ as a catch-all for a variety of reasons, and it’s definitely important to respect that not everybody is comfortable with it as a label, and nobody should ever be labelled ‘queer’ against their will.
There is also a very vocal group group that don’t like the term ‘queer’ used as an umbrella term at all, and want to severely limit how it’s used and who can use it. And these are usually the people saying asexuals can’t use the term ‘queer’.
All that being said, Asexuality is not a straight orientation, and asexual people are not viewed as straight by straight people. Asexuality is also a marginalized orientation. And these are the main reasons I strongly believe asexual people should be allowed to identify with the term queer if they want to.
(As to whether ace people get called queer or not, there is zero data on that that I’m aware of. I’ve heard anecdotal accounts from asexual people being called ‘queer’ as a slur, but I have no way of knowing if it’s something isolated or if it’s something a lot of asexual people have dealt with.)
Of course not all asexual people do identify as queer or feel comfortable identifying as queer, and that’s totally fine too (and in fact most heteromantic aces and aroaces don’t identify as queer). A lot of it will come down to comfort levels and personal politics, and that’s all good.
So yeah, at the end of the day I think it comes down to preference, comfort levels and politics whether individual asexual people are queer or not. But if you identify with and are comfortable identifying as queer, yeah, it’s fine.
Anyways, I’m going on 2 hours of sleep, and this is a really sensitive topic, so I really hope this is all coherent. Let me know if you have questions.
All the best, Anon.
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