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sneezypeasy · 1 month

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Why I Deliberately Avoided the "Colonizer" Argument in my Zutara Thesis - and Why I'll Continue to Avoid it Forever

This is a question that occasionally comes up under my Zutara video essay, because somehow in 2 hours worth of content I still didn't manage to address everything (lol.) But this argument specifically is one I made a point of avoiding entirely, and there are some slightly complicated reasons behind that. I figure I'll write them all out here.

From a surface-level perspective, Zuko's whole arc, his raison d'etre, is to be a de-colonizer. Zuko's redemption arc is kinda all about being a de-colonizer, and his redemption arc is probably like the most talked about plot point of ATLA, so from a basic media literacy standpoint, the whole argument is unsound in the first place, and on that basis alone I find it childish to even entertain as an argument worth engaging with, to be honest.

(At least one person in my comments pointed out that if any ship's "political implications" are problematic in some way, it really ought to be Maiko, as Mai herself is never shown or suggested to be a strong candidate for being a de-colonizing co-ruler alongside Zuko. If anything her attitudes towards lording over servants/underlings would make her… a less than suitable choice for this role, but I digress.)

But the reason I avoided rebutting this particular argument in my video goes deeper than that. From what I've observed of fandom discourse, I find that the colonizer argument is usually an attempt to smear the ship as "problematic" - i.e., this ship is an immoral dynamic, which would make it problematic to depict as canon (and by extension, if you ship it regardless, you're probably problematic yourself.)

And here is where I end up taking a stand that differentiates me from the more authoritarian sectors of fandom.

I'm not here to be the fandom morality police. When it comes to lit crit, I'm really just here to talk about good vs. bad writing. (And when I say "good", I mean structurally sound, thematically cohesive, etc; works that are well-written - I don't mean works that are morally virtuous. More on this in a minute.) So the whole colonizer angle isn't something I'm interested in discussing, for the same reason that I actually avoided discussing Katara "mothering" Aang or the "problematic" aspects of the Kataang ship (such as how he kissed her twice without her consent). My whole entire sections on "Kataang bad" or "Maiko bad" in my 2 hour video was specifically, "how are they written in a way that did a disservice to the story", and "how making them false leads would have created valuable meaning". I deliberately avoided making an argument that consisted purely of, "here's how Kataang/Maiko toxic and Zutara wholesome, hence Zutara superiority, the end".

Why am I not willing to be the fandom morality police? Two reasons:

I don't really have a refined take on these subjects anyway. Unless a piece of literature or art happens to touch on a particular issue that resonates with me personally, the moral value of art is something that doesn't usually spark my interest, so I rarely have much to say on it to begin with. On the whole "colonizer ship" subject specifically, other people who have more passion and knowledge than me on the topic can (and have) put their arguments into words far better than I ever could. I'm more than happy to defer to their take(s), because honestly, they can do these subjects justice in a way I can't. Passing the mic over to someone else is the most responsible thing I can do here, lol. But more importantly:

I reject the conflation of literary merit with moral virtue. It is my opinion that a good story well-told is not always, and does not have to be, a story free from moral vices/questionable themes. In my opinion, there are good problematic stories and bad "pure" stories and literally everything in between. To go one step further, I believe that there are ways that a romance can come off "icky", and then there are ways that it might actually be bad for the story, and meming/shitposting aside, the fact that these two things don't always neatly align is not only a truth I recognise about art but also one of those truths that makes art incredibly interesting to me! So on the one hand, I don't think it is either fair or accurate to conflate literary "goodness" with moral "goodness". On a more serious note, I not only find this type of conflation unfair/inaccurate, I also find it potentially dangerous - and this is why I am really critical of this mindset beyond just disagreeing with it factually. What I see is that people who espouse this rhetoric tend to encourage (or even personally engage in) wilful blindness one way or the other, because ultimately, viewing art through these lens ends up boxing all art into either "morally permissible" or "morally impermissible" categories, and shames anyone enjoying art in the "morally impermissible" box. Unfortunately, I see a lot of people responding to this by A) making excuses for art that they guiltily love despite its problematic elements and/or B) denying the value of any art that they are unable to defend as free from moral wickedness.

Now, I'm not saying that media shouldn't be critiqued on its moral virtue. I actually think morally critiquing art has its place, and assuming it's being done in good faith, it absolutely should be done, and probably even more often than it is now.

Because here's the truth: Sometimes, a story can be really good. Sometimes, you can have a genuinely amazing story with well developed characters and powerful themes that resonate deeply with anyone who reads it. Sometimes, a story can be all of these things - and still be problematic.*

(Or, sometimes a story can be all of those things, and still be written by a problematic author.)

That's why I say, when people conflate moral art with good art, they become blind to the possibility that the art they like being potentially immoral (or vice versa). If only "bad art" is immoral, how can the art that tells the story hitting all the right beats and with perfect rhythm and emotional depth, be ever problematic?

(And how can the art I love, be ever problematic?)

This is why I reject the idea that literary merit = moral virtue (or vice versa) - because I do care about holding art accountable. Even the art that is "good art". Actually, especially the art that is "good art". Especially the art that is well loved and respected and appreciated. The failure to distinguish literary critique from moral critique bothers me on a personal level because I think that conflating the two results in the detriment of both - the latter being the most concerning to me, actually.

So while I respect the inherent value of moral criticism, I'm really not a fan of any argument that presents moral criticism as equivalent to literary criticism, and I will call that out when I see it. And from what I've observed, a lot of the "but Zutara is a colonizer ship" tries to do exactly that, which is why I find it a dishonest and frankly harmful media analysis framework to begin with.

But even when it is done in good faith, moral criticism of art is also just something I personally am neither interested nor good at talking about, and I prefer to talk about the things that I am interested and good at talking about.

(And some people are genuinely good at tackling the moral side of things! I mean, I for one really enjoyed Lindsay Ellis's take on Rent contextualising it within the broader political landscape at the time to show how it's not the progressive queer story it might otherwise appear to be. Moral critique has value, and has its place, and there are definitely circumstances where it can lead to societal progress. Just because I'm not personally interested in addressing it doesn't mean nobody else can do it let alone that nobody else should do it, but also, just because it can and should be done, doesn't mean that it's the only "one true way" to approach lit crit by anyone ever. You know, sometimes... two things… can be true… at once?)

Anyway, if anyone reading this far has recognised that this is basically a variant of the proship vs. antiship debate, you're right, it is. And on that note, I'm just going to leave some links here. I've said about as much as I'm willing/able to say on this subject, but in case anyone is interested in delving deeper into the philosophy behind my convictions, including why I believe leftist authoritarian rhetoric is harmful, and why the whole "but it would be problematic in real life" is an anti-ship argument that doesn't always hold up to scrutiny, I highly recommend these posts/threads:

In general this blog is pretty solid; I agree with almost all of their takes - though they focus more specifically on fanfic/fanart than mainstream media, and I think quite a lot of their arguments are at least somewhat appropriate to extrapolate to mainstream media as well.

I also strongly recommend Bob Altemeyer's book "The Authoritarians" which the author, a verified giga chad, actually made free to download as a pdf, here. His work focuses primarily on right-wing authoritarians, but a lot of his research and conclusions are, you guessed it, applicable to left-wing authoritarians also.

And if you're an anti yourself, welp, you won't find support from me here. This is not an anti-ship safe space, sorrynotsorry 👆

In conclusion, honestly any "but Zutara is problematic" argument is one I'm likely to consider unsound to begin with, let alone the "Zutara is a colonizer ship" argument - but even if it wasn't, it's not something I'm interested in discussing, even if I recognise there are contexts where these discussions have value. I resent the idea that just because I have refined opinions on one aspect of a discussion means I must have (and be willing to preach) refined opinions on all aspects of said discussion. (I don't mean to sound reproachful here - actually the vast majority of the comments I get on my video/tumblr are really sweet and respectful, but I do get a handful of silly comments here and there and I'm at the point where I do feel like this is something worth saying.) Anyway, I'm quite happy to defer to other analysts who have the passion and knowledge to give complicated topics the justice they deserve. All I request is that care is taken not to conflate literary criticism with moral criticism to the detriment of both - and I think it's important to acknowledge when that is indeed happening. And respectfully, don't expect me to give my own take on the matter when other people are already willing and able to put their thoughts into words so much better than me. Peace ✌

*P.S. This works for real life too, by the way. There are people out there who are genuinely not only charming and likeable, but also generous, charitable and warm to the vast majority of the people they know. They may also be amazing at their work, and if they have a job that involves saving lives like firefighting or surgery or w.e, they may even be the reason dozens of people are still alive today. They may honestly do a lot of things you'd have to concede are "good" deeds.

They may be all of these things, and still be someone's abuser. 🙃

Two things can be true at once. It's important never to forget that.

#zutara discourse #the colonizer argument #anti anti zutara #text post #long post #anti maiko #anti mai #tagging just in case #anti purity culture #this is not an anti-ship safe space

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red-devil330 · 9 months

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An explanation of the burden of proof fallacy.

This is how it should be when debating.

For those who say...

"Fiction effects reality on a 1:1 scale."

"Consuming ____ leads to ____."

"If you consume/like ____, you're a pedophile."

...it is YOUR responsibility to prove that claim.

#pro fiction #pro ship #profic #proship #anime #fandom #fiction #antis #anti purity culture #manga

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plasmalunare · 4 months

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please tell me I'm not the only one who gets a bit bothered by antis who write "proship dni" at the end of their post, but then they write proship by replacing some of the letters with different characters (ex. pr0sh1p, pr05hipp3r, etc.)

my brother in christ. please just write it normally so i can avoid the post and i can avoid interacting with you.

I can only add so many variations of "proship dni" written with different letters and numbers in my blacklist

#proship #proship safe space #antis dni #anti anti #proshipping #proshipper #proshippers please interact #anti purity culture #i see this especially in the selfship tag #like. okay i won't interact but can you do the bare minimum and write it correctly

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woaheyeradioboy · 29 days

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I genuinely don't fucking care what you like in fiction. I don't care how disgusting, heinous, or "illegal" (not actually) it is, as long as you aren't agreeing with it or acting out things you read in a non-roleplay/fiction setting.

TW: Rape, Child Abuse, Pedophilia, Age gaps, Abuse, Bestiality, Grooming, Incest, and similar content

You can read about someone being raped. You can read about a child being raped. You can read about incest. You can read about pedophilic incest. You can read about someone fucking a dog. You can read about someone being raped by an animal. You can read about someone grooming someone else. You can read about horrible power imbalances. You can read about Victim x Abuser. You can read about gang rape. You can read all of that and more, whether the content is "romanticizing" or "sexualizing" it or putting it in a "positive light", because I do believe if you're reading these things you are capable enough to not have your morals and "respect" of laws immediately broken because you didn't get told 100 different times during the story how bad the content was.

You can read WHATEVER THE FUCK YOU WANT, however you want, forever and ever. Don't act out the fiction in real life unless roleplaying with another consent adult (or teenager within your age range if you're not 18+) and it DOESN'T MATTER.

Fiction can affect reality, but usually only if you're allowing it to. Children oftentimes shouldn't be online but even if they are, it is never an authors fault or the people who enjoy the fiction the author writes that the child ends up exposed to bad things. If someone who is mentally unwell and cannot separate fiction and reality due to this is online and is affected by these things, it is not the authors fault or the fault of the people who enjoy the authors fiction.

If something that someone else wrote affects someone else in a bad way, it is not the authors fault.

Censorship of fiction is bad no matter what, and if you want to censor any form of fiction you are automatically already getting closer to people like transphobes and racists and ableists, because being pro-censorship ALWAYS leads down the same exact rabbit hole of puritan beliefs and controlling others.

#Static Broadcast #profic #comship #anti censorship #anti purity culture #pro fiction #proship #tw r4p3 #tw child abuse #tw pedophila mention #tw age gap #tw abuse #tw animal abuse #tw inc*st #the fact that the trigger warning tags are censored can easily be an add on to my point tbh

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fandom-hoarder · 3 months

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The notes in that rpf poll are literally making me sick. Oh, you're a "reformed real person shipper"? Oh you were only a silly teen? STFU. Like actually, grow up more. There's nothing wrong with RPF. Movies are often RPF, because people will write it with certain actors in mind. Historical fiction is RPF. SNL is RPF. Some centuries-old plays are RPF!

The only problem would be if it's being sent to the celebrity unsolicited, or people are harassing the real people to be in a real relationship. But that's not a normal part of writing RPF! Thats a PARASOCIAL problem; a HARRASSMENT problem; not a writing problem. That's more like what antis do to "out" people, or what people who can't tell fiction from reality do.

Genuinely hope all the people judging RPF purely on existing grow out of their ridiculousness. You don't have to like reading it. But judging a FRIEND because they start WRITING it??? What the actual fuck y'all.

#me.txt #anti purity culture #rpf #rpf discourse

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feralsapientia · 3 months

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I know there's a lot of people following this account whose kinks come from traumatic events, either when you were young or when you grew up.

I wanted to remind yall that none of us are evil for coping with our trauma in this way. We are not evil for getting turned on by certain situations. As long as everything we do doesn't hurt anyone and it's consensual we do NOT owe anyone anything. You don't have to feel guilty for it.

Doms who have a cnc kink and get off on the thought of raping someone? Not evil. Ageres who enjoy fantasizing about older people taking advantage of them? Not disgusting. Sadomasochists that enjoy causing or receiving harm? Not degenerates.

Hell, even if your kink doesn't come from trauma, unless you harm someone for real without their consent, no one has the right to judge you. Thought crime doesn't exist.

#nsft concept #anti censorship #anti purity culture #anti puritan #nsft trans #queer nsft #agepl@y #nsft agere #bd/sm cnc #cnc k!nk #cnc dom #cnc doll #r@pe kink #pro kink #coping mechanism #thought crime #thought crime doesn't exist

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proshipping-kitten · 1 year

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Darkfic is good

Darkfic is fun

You don’t need to justify or explain why you like or write darkfic

#dark fic #Proship #anti purity culture

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average25jifan · 7 months

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tiktok kids have moved past "you can't depict bad things without condemning them!!" now they're saying "you can't depict bad things at all!!" ladies and gentlemen, the future of our society.

#proship #profiction #anti anti #profic #proship safe #anti censorship #antis dni #anti purity culture

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orionsangel86 · 8 months

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My friend just linked me to this article in light of my rage at all the stupid bullshit comments to that dumb post that Neil Gaiman answered attacking any Good Omens meta that may suggest AziraCrow may want sex in the future.

This article focuses on Heartstopper and Red, White, and Royal Blue, but its relevant. Purity culture is insidious and a current plague infecting our fandom spaces. Don't let puritanicals use asexuality as a disguise and shield for their shitty views either. This has nothing to do with asexuality and everything to do with an infestation of conservative christian fundamentalist viewpoints within fandom spaces specifically aimed at attacking canon mlm media.

The fact that apparently in Good Omens fandom fans arent even allowed to make their own posts discussing potential themes and subtext within the show that dares to imply AziraCrow could have a sexual relationship without puritanicals going to Neil Gaimans inbox to complain that such discussions are offending their delicate puritanical sensibilities is horrifying to me. Its not an attack on your sexuality if fans claim that an intense ox eating scene is oddly sexually charged in their opinion.

We really must keep up the discussion against purity culture and stamp down on sex shaming within fandom.

Anyway it's an excellent article. Please read it.

#good omens #anti purity culture #anti sex negativity #puriteens #purity culture #fandom discourse

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controversialhpmemes · 2 months

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#anti purity culture #fandom discourse #fandom wank

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meerawrites · 2 months

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Gen z queers who are ‘antis’ are so laughable. You ship but you hate people for shipping on the basis of your own discomfort. Read about the AIDS crisis and the time the kinksters and lesbians saved the entire queer population (basically), or read any old gothic literature and learn how monster/other was shorthand for queer people to communicate.

You’re masquerading as queer if you go after people who saved our community, furthermore if you’ve never been an outcast for existing I don’t want hear it.

Gothic horror writers/dark fiction creators and kinksters I am blowing you all a kiss (respectfully).

#meera.txt #queer history #anti purity culture #anti censorship #lesbian #queer #lgbtq+#bisexual #nonbinary #genderqueer #transsexual #transgender #trans #know your history #gothic horror #history

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sneezypeasy · 1 month

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This is why I prefer to let other people take the mic when it comes to fandom/moral critique. Even on my best day, I couldn't publish a fandom-critical take half as comprehensive and coherent as this one.

Reposted anonymously with permission from OP, who understandably does not want to deal with hate comments/hate asks for expressing these opinions.

(Hopefully the screenshots load properly on tumblr, I know the first one is incredibly long 😅)

#zutara discourse #anti anti zutara #the colonizer argument #fandom analysis #anti purity culture #anti ship war #anti kataang #anti maiko #anti aang #anti mai

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tommyssupercoolblog · 4 months

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Vent about Antis

obvs this convo would never happen they would be blocked already but. aguhgh.

#tommy's og art wow #tommy's OG ART wow #cw discourse #discourse #discourse cw #tw discourse #discourse tw #proship #proshipper #proshippers please interact #pro fiction #profic #anti harassment #anti puritan #anti purity culture #anti censorship #ship and let ship

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duaghterofstories · 1 month

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What if Alastor’s deal, the one that Husk was talking about, is with Charlie. Maybe it’s not even a real deal? What if they met when he was human and they both became obsessed with each other. After he died, he tried to find an in with his princess and she assumed he went to Heaven.

There is a leash, a metaphorical one, that binds him to her. One he loves and adores, that he uses to follow her around. He always knows where she is and what she’s feeling. He is always there, waiting for her to see him properly, to actually take his soul in a deal.

Anyway, I’m writing a fanfic about this, so keep an eye out.

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craycraybluejay · 3 months

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apparently it is morally wrong to have a crush/sexual feelings for anyone in general. Like. the whole 'dont sexualize literal people ewwww.' i really really wish less teens were on the internet because of this kind of stuff. we are mass-producing mental illness and i am not kidding.

like imagine being 15, having a crush on someone in your class, going on the internet, and being bombarded with all sorts of people saying its wrong to experience sexual thoughts towards people in your peer group. its wrong for adults to have sexual thoughts about other adults. its even more wrong for you, a teen, to have sexual thoughts about your classmates.

you are 16 now and very lucky to be in therapy with a well off enough family. you confess to your therapist how evil you are for wanting to touch or look at that one girl in your class. she looks at you with confusion, like how your mother looks at you when you ask her why you have a computer and your friend doesn't. why is it fair. everyone's confused about you and you are confused too. you're evil, you must be, because you have dirty disgusting feelings. you deserve to be mocked online, says dogluvr15089. you're an evil monster, says @Official Priest of West California. you're a pervert and sexual predator, says fandom_m0m321. they have stupid names and no faces-- but if all of them are saying it then it must have some truth to it, right? your therapist is saying something but you don't hear her, you're in your head wondering if you should punish yourself, how you should punish yourself. when you're back in the room with her you ask her what's wrong with you. she writes you a diagnosis for ocd and anxiety. you take the drugs, like the good, righteous, pure teenager you want to be. they make you feel weirdly empty, and not very hungry, and kinda sleepy. they might give you dementia in your 50s but who cares. you deserve it for being gross. you look through the comments even on other people's stuff, the comments telling them the same thing you were told. you're still punishing yourself for natural feelings-- seeking out the same degrading bullying when you don't get enough of it. you don't tell your therapist you are doing this; because you know she would tell you to stop and you don't want to stop. it's a compulsion. you talked about those last Tuesday.

you're 17. you haven't asked anyone out. by some miracle, a girl who likes you takes the initiative. you stumble through the date awkwardly and anxiously, trying not to touch her, flinching away when your fingers brush over a cheap burger. she asks if you're okay, and then asks, "don't you like me?" She asks, "why do you look like you're scared of me or something?" You stay silent. But then when it happens again, she gets up to leave and the rejection causes the dam to break. You try not to cry, because that's Emotional Manipulation. You choose your words carefully, because you don't want to accidentally Gaslight her like the evil thing you are. You stumble through it but you tell her you're sorry, you tell her you've never had the chance to date. You tell her, shaking like a leaf, like a dumb idiot, that you really really like her and she's very pretty and you're scared to say Hot or Sexy so you don't. And you tell her you're scared. You're really scared she'll see you're a bad person and leave you for someone more pure and good. You try really hard to phrase it like a PR team would. She tells you that's ridiculous, laughing like sunshine and kisses and god, sex. But most of all you've never heard someone so flippantly tell you how ridiculous of a notion that is. She makes you feel brave. You tell her what people have been telling you, scared that you're Trauma Bonding her but pushing through. She, with more surprise, again tells you it's ridiculous. She's not laughing anymore, but you want to make her laugh. You ask with a voice too small for your age if its okay you think her laugh is really sexy. She smiles so brightly its blinding, and says she thinks you're sexy too. You hold hands when you leave together. You go on more dates later, and the two of you talk about your problems and your dreams. And she shows you how to yell at "internet dumbasses." And you still go to therapy except this time you think it's working, because this time you Get It. You get it's ridiculous, and you're happy enough to try to heal.

And you know what? You're one of the lucky few that got that chance. Many teens struggle with mental health problems due to the internet. Not all of them are caused by this purity bullshit. Some of it is body image-- accounts that encourage eating disorders and low self-esteem. Some of it is trends and feeling lonely and unlikeable. Social media doesn't just excaberate mental illness. Sometimes it really and truly produces it and this fact needs more awareness.

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