#i think it's really fucking interesting how jgy is the person who's saved the most common people in the setting with the watchtowers

[lgbtlunaverse]

Life as a JGY stan is so hard because sometimes I want to make posts about the ways his very justified paranoia turns against him sometimes, rare moments where I think being more trusting or vulnerable would have helped but he felt like it couldnt, or talk about how his brutal survival instinct intersects with society's existing bigotries in a such a way that most of his violence is actually aimed at people lower on the ladder than him, with people like Jin Guangshan being the exception not the rule. Because he's a fascinating character and these parts of him are interesting!

But when I do that I have to live in perpetual fear of the moment that it escapes its target audience and someone takes it to go "Yeah he's a monster who fucked over everyone and is incapable of love! I wish he was killed earlier and his death was a thousand times more painful 🤪"

I mean, take my last example. Due to existing hierarchies it is, at any point, easier and safer for jgy to harm people less powerful than him instead of more powerful than him, even if the more powerful are the ones threatening his safety in the first place. Even knowing how it harms him and while working against it, Jin Guangyao is not immune to internalizing the mindset of the world he lives in. Even when killing Jin Guangshan- one man- it ends up costing the lives of 20 sex workers. You think I can bring up the sex workers in this fucking fandom? You think that will go over peacefully? The well has been so thoroughly poisoned here it feels like any conversation around morality automatically turns into a courtroom to determine a sentence for this fictional fucking character who's already dead.

#mdzs #meng yao #jin guangyao #complaining and whining about fandom #does fandom even know you can talk about morality in a way that's not adding up good person vs bad person tally points? #i think it's really fucking interesting how jgy is the person who's saved the most common people in the setting with the watchtowers #a politically unpopular move! this was a passion project he made becuase he wanted to help people! #and yet he's not afraid to take advantage of every bit of social capital he painstakingly gains to harm those below him either #i wish! that i could talk about that! #i also haaaate the 'incapable of love' thing on principle #morality is a choice! people don't need to FEEL love or empathy to not harm others #to use it as shorthand for 'evil' is reductive and fucking annoying #people hurt people they love all the time! #fandom does this in a similar way to nmj also. 'oh he can't empathise with other people' NOT THE PROBLEM. HE HAS A VERY DIFFERENT PROBLEM #what characters feel is very important to me from a 'studying blorbo' perspective but not in a debate about whether they're a good person

[tavina-writes]

Sorry may I ask you a question? Your meta is so interesting! In mdzs "debts" is a recurring theme and can you please explain it? I've read meta about how in Chinese culture jc's owed the wen siblings a debt and he should have saved them, but I've also read meta about how he owed a hugger debt to his own sect. I've read how jgy killed whr and nmj, people who he owned his educations (debts). I thought that mdzs was more about "Who is wrong? Who is right?" so that everyone is a bit wrong and a bit right but this kind of meta make me doubt myself and think that maybe in mdzs someone is really morally right (wwx and lwj) and everyone else is wrong. I am going a little crazy, that's why I asked you. Anyway, thanks in advance and have a good day!

Hi Nonny!

There's no need to apologize for sending an ask! I love asks!

Regarding your question about debts and what is "owed" in relationships, I think it's important to clarify that like, presumably if someone saved your life you'd also owe them a debt of gratitude, a life debt, or however and whichever other 'debt' terminology you'd care to use there. So this concept of "debt" because you owe someone for doing something for you is not in and of itself a 'unique to Chinese culture' problem, and I think looking at "oh this person "owes" this other person a thing" is not entirely a great? way to analyze how character relationships "should" or should not go. There are lots of ways we as people in a society owe other people in our society and the characters in this book, much like us, are trapped in a confluence of factors that pull them in different directions regarding what they should or should not do.

The book itself (at least from my own opinion) is meant to read as "everyone is both right and wrong at various points in this text because this is a book with complex characters and not a morality lesson" because lest we forget, WWX made a woman eat a chair leg at one point, which. We cannot say this was correct in really anything except the most reductive main character centric interpretation.

Regarding debts themselves that say, WangXian might owe their families in accordance to their society that sound just about the same as the examples mentioned above, we can say things like "since Wei Wuxian was raised by the Jiang, he should've been helping Jiang Cheng rebuilding Lotus Pier instead of sitting around drinking or running off with the Wen!" or "how dare Lan Wangji injure thirty-three of his family elders, doesn't he know he should've been filial to them and owed his education and position in society to the Lan Sect?" and "why is it that WangXian got to go fuck in a bush at the end of the story when other people who arguably did fewer crimes end up dead? Does this mean they owed less to society or made all the right choices compared to say, the other people who are still in fact super dead and don't get to fuck their beloved in a bush?"

Does this start to look like this concept of "debts" doesn't,,, actually explain anything about the moral complexities of the character's situations? That's because it isn't a good indicator of if character x made a moral choice or not.

But again, this whole concept of "debts" to explain why a character does a thing and why they're morally good or evil and reprehensible for not doing this other thing is entirely a thing fandom does in meta to make their fave look good or character they're an anti about look extremely bad under a case of "well ACKSHUALLY morality says they SHOULD HAVE done this!" None of these characters exist either as Perfectly Moral Beings or Perfectly Evil Immoral Beings inside a decision making vacuum.

It...also doesn't really matter if your fave is right or wrong either :D just for context. They're all fictional blorbos upon a page and or screen. No real person was harmed in over the course of the story. No woman deep throated a chair leg, no child was tossed down the stairs, no groups of people were massacred, no brothers were abandoned, no one was poisoned with rage disease until they died, nobody committed incest... etc etc and honestly debating about if fictional characters were right or wrong fascinates me a lot less than "what does the story tell us about what drove them and made them tick?" and "what adaptational and translational choices did other people before me make about this story and do I agree with them on their adaptational choices."

:( sorry this came out so messy anon! I just don't think the "did this character repay their debts -> is this character a good person -> a morally good character therefore doesn't owe anyone anything anymore and if they do owe someone something that doesn't count/no they don't." pipeline is particularly useful from an analyzing the story standpoint.

#don't actually come debate in my notes or my inbox on if wangxian owe their families anything #or if this one debt a character has outweighs the other things that also act on their lives #like actually i am begging y'all to not #the debts debate means almost nothing! there are a lot of things everyone owes everyone else! #mo dao zu shi #the untamed #my meta #meta #asks and answers

[plan-d-to-i]

I've seen the idea shared a lot that "jiang cheng was holding on to Chenqing bc uwu he miSsed WWX 🥺" so to clarify, in the same way JGY is holding on to Suibian, jc was holding on to Chenqing as a war trophy and in his case more importantly as bait because he was convinced that if WWX were to return he would not go for the sword he stopped using but he'd definitely seek out his flute:

"Xue Yang: Give him the sword in exchange for the flute. It’s long since Wei WuXian stopped using his sword, while Suibian sealed itself and nobody can pull it out. What’s the use of keeping a fucking piece of decoration?”

Jin GuangYao, “You really ask me to do the impossible, Young Master Xue. Do you think I haven’t tried? How could anything be that simple. That Jiang WanYin has already gone mad. He still thinks Wei WuXian hasn’t died. If Wei WuXian returned, he might not search for his sword, but he’d definitely come for Chenqing. And so, he would definitely not give up Chenqing. A few more words of mine, and he might blow up." (Villainous Friends Extra)

jc wants to lure WWX and kill him as he's been hunting him for THIRTEEN YEARS. So in the temple at the end it's not surprising jc has Chenqing on him. Considering how obsessed he has been with tracking down WWX and as Chenqing was his strongest lure why would he have let it out of his sight all these years esp when cultivator's sleeves are magical storage space (it's free storage space!). & because I've also seen this wayyy to often -No it's not like a horcrux- it's not draining him of energy or joy to have it on his person lmfao. He only gives it back to WWX as a last resort, because they're all in mortal peril battling NMJ's corpse and NOTHING else is working. jc has always been happy to use WWX as a weapon. He's not returning it out of the goodness of his heart or because he's a changed man, or as a love letter to WWX lmfao.

In the Guanyin Temple the situation with NMJ's corpse is already immensely precarious. NMJ is attracted to JGY's blood and by extension Jin blood meaning -Jin Ling's.

"Now that Nie MingJue had become a fierce corpse, his resentful energy was of course highest when directed at his enemy, Jin GuangYao. However, fierce corpses didn’t tell people apart through their eyes!

Jin GuangYao was quite close to Jin Ling in terms of bloodline. To creatures of darkness, the blood and breath of both these two humans seemed somewhat familiar, and those in a state of disorientation would find it even more difficult to tell the two apart. Right now, blood poured from Jin GuangYao’s lost arm. With weak breaths, and he was almost half dead, while Jin Ling was still alive and jumping. Nie MingJue’s dead, thoughtless brain naturally held greater interest in him." (107)

Even with everyone pooling their strength to control NMJ's corpse it's not successful:

Lan WangJi commanded Bichen forth to attack straight at Nie MingJue’s chest. As expected, the blade stopped as soon as it landed. As Nie MingJue looked down and saw the glittering sword, he roared and reached for it. Lan WangJi immediately summoned back Bichen, which flew into its sheath with a loud clang. Nie MingJue ended up empty-handed. Right after, with a turn of his left hand, he flipped out the Wangji guqin and placed it on his palm. Without any hesitation, he strummed a stream of notes. Lan XiChen returned Liebing to his lips again as well. With a wave of his hand, Wei WuXian sent out over fifty talismans flying towards Nie MingJue, but before they even got close, they were ignited by his resentful energy and burned to ashes in the air!

Lan Wangji is using Wangji, Lan XiChen is using Liebing, Wei Wuxian's flute is broken so he's either whistling or throwing talismans and Wen Ning still has to intervene and stop NMJ's punch that would've killed jiang cheng (and then probably Jin Ling) w his body.

Finally WWX manages to wrestle it under control after it puts a hole in Wen Ning, when it's once more distracted by NHS and JGY. And if difficult as it's been to control so far if it kills JGY it will be even worse:

After he killed Jin GuangYao, his killing intent would definitely become stronger, and he’d be more difficult to subdue!

So NMJ has already "smashed three of the cultivators into a scarlet puddle of flesh", punched his way through Wen Ning to get to Jin Ling, he's just punched his way through SuShe and is about to go after JGY once more. Once he Rocky Balboas him we know that he'll be even more powerful, and one of his next targets will most likely be Jin so MXY or Jin Ling. Or most likely one and then the other. Meanwhile nothing is having any effect on NMJ's corpse anymore... when FINALLY jc decides to throw WWX his flute.

Nie MingJue turned around after he pulled his fist back and stared hungrily in his direction.

The harsh, stern expression on his rigid face held a sense of judgement that was no different from before he died. Even his tears had been scared away as Jin GuangYao turned to Lan XiChen for help, his voice trembling, “Brother…”

Lan XiChen turned the direction in which his blade pointed, while Wei WuXian and Lan WangJi sped up their melodies as well. But the effects of the whistle had already been overcome. It would be much harder than before for it to take effect again.

At this point, somebody on the side suddenly called, “Wei WuXian!”

jc NOW returns the flute when he has no other choice and finally NMJ can be subdued.

Lan WangJi nodded. No more words had to be exchanged as the notes of the guqin and the flute sounded in unison. The former was like a frozen river and the latter like flying birds; one suppressed while the other lured. Under the duet, Nie MingJue’s body wavered before it was finally half-forced to move its steps away from Jin GuangYao. (Chapter 108)

Like this is not jc just casually letting go of all his resentments and returning Chenqing to WWX as an act of trust and goodwill. This is jc doing what he's always been comfortable doing- using WWX as a weapon. Naturally, he's not going to ask for it back at the end, when it's already been revealed in front of the others that he has WWX's core and WWX just saved them all. WWX asks as a passing courtesy and then he's gone bc as he's said in the temple jc is in his past.

Wei WuXian took the flute. Remembering that Jiang Cheng was the one who brought it, he turned over there and commented casually, “Thanks.” He waved Chenqing, “I’ll… be keeping this?”

Jiang Cheng glanced at him, “It was yours in the first place.”

After a moment of hesitation, his lips moved slightly, as though he wanted to say something else. However, Wei WuXian had already turned to Lan WangJi. Seeing this, Jiang Cheng remained silent.

jc gets it. The end.

#really tired of the chenqing is a love language bullshit #Yunmeng NOs #I removed the cut /Keep Reading since it's not that long xx #mdzs #Wei Wuxian #Nie Mingjue #Wen Ning #Lan Wangji #jiang cheng #canon jiang cheng

[leatherbookmarking]

sits.

a curse/plot imperative hits nmj and makes him invisible (inaudible, untouchable, etc, etc) while he’s in jinlintai. he’s convinced it’s somehow jgy’s doing, so he sets to find him and make him remove it, except, of course, shouting your san-di into anything is a bit difficult when he acts as if he can’t see or hear you -- the gall, the--oh fuck and walks right through you, as if you were a ghost?! fucked up. really fucked up, alright. and he can��t summon baxia to like, cleave the bastard in half, so he settles on following him everywhere, determined to discover the way to uncurse himself (because it’s clearly jgy, cmon). and also all the atrocities and plots jgy is undoubtedly up to when no one’s looking.

he finds... things, oh that he does. and stuff. such as: what jin guangshan looks like after a merry night with the girls (jgy came to wake him up). or: how jin guangshan behaves with a barely awake girl who passed out last night, and how long it takes for jgy to politely persuade him to perhaps get up and go have breakfast, or madame jin might be cross with him. or: how jin guangshan snorts and pushes his son away, sending him straight into what looks and smells like a puddle of vomit, for some reason. etc, etc

during those very educating hours, nmj does get an answer to the immediate question of why does he allow that to happen to him?!, and the one to provide it is no one else than madame jin, who never wastes a chance to remind jgy that he’s a disgusting bastard, this is not his home, and one wrong step can send him back down those stairs, so watch your place. she’s not the only one to voice her thoughts in this manner, because a couple of cousins also always has something to say. eventually he also learns to recognize the less obvious signs of someone’s contempt -- jgy sometimes does that soulless smile or clenches his jaw and nmj initially doesn’t know why, that person didn’t say anything hateful, and then he learns to notice the facial expressions, the tone of voice, even the backhanded compliments. tl;dr jinlintai is hell, what the fuck, nmj would have beheaded half of those bastards and jgy just keeps on smiling--

i mean he does find the corpses too, okay. he does find them because jgy has to pay a-yang a visit. like this is a thing that happens,

BUT ALSO he witnesses his meeting with sect leader su -- oh his name’s minshan, whatever -- who seems to be... aware of everything that happens to jgy and fucking furious about it, and also something something society. this su minshan notices that jgy has been slapped this day, and looks as if he’s boiling inside for a moment, and then he Snaps, which -- judging by jgy’s face -- isn’t his first time.

nmj finds out about a lot of interesting things after that? such as jgy doesn’t have any place to leave for, and if he “doesn’t like it” at jinlintai, he might as well just hang himself, it’ll be quicker that way; how his sworn brothers must think they’re so great and noble but how can they be any of these if jgy doesn’t feel he can ask them for help; how jin guangshan may be his father but it doesn’t excuse him deliberately putting jgy to the most humiliating, dirty and atrocious tasks, and ordering him to kill nie mingjue is honestly too much, what, can’t he kill him himself, this old, pathetic worm? does he have to send his son? and to nie mingjue, who regards him as lower than an insect, as if it wasn’t him who saved his ungrateful ass, etc etc? it’s a very enlightening evening for nie mingjue, in short

of course sms uses slightly gentler words; but jgy tells him off for that anyway, but at this point nmj... sails off a little, needing time to... (gestures) this ALL

and like. how it ends is honestly not as important as the EXPERIENCE, like LEARN A LITTLE, NIE MINGJUE. nmj is a character that, i feel, hasn’t really been robbed of his agency and power as others have (jgy being jgy, wwx and jc losing their cores, lxc losing his home and family etcetc).

like yes, he’s been living with the looming threat of losing his mind to saber brain, but being so possessed by rage and killing intent that you explode, killing everyone around you is slightly different flavour of hell than being aware that anyone could kill you anytime and no one would care! or notice.

so all the scenarios where he loses a lot of his power -- for example his golden core, i think i had an idea like that on twt, rip in pieces -- and can witness, first or second hand, what it’s like to be jgy or jgy-adjacent, are. good. crunchy. juicy and umami. yknow?

so, does he get uncursed? does he decide to help jgy, now seeing him in a different light? does he See, and feel bad about his black-and-white views? or does he simply -- march into xy’s merry little workshop when jgy is there, drag him out and execute him in front of everyone? who knows, it could be a very interesting fic i’m not going to write, but also, hngggghhh i am sorry for saying this and i love da-ge, his firm titties and his sexey moustache to Bits, but -- yesss nmj can get brought down a peg or seven from time to time. as a treat (for me).

also, it was all sms

#explanation: #sms has a lot of pissed off thoughts he doesn't voice. one of those thoughts was 'hmpf righteous and mighty nie mingjue thinks his word is #above everyone else's! you should try living in our skins! you should try being considered so unimportant you're practically invi-- HEY.' #end of explanation. all hail the king #shut up shrimp #thinky thots #long post ? of sorts? idk

[threephasebird]

Hello friend, it's Nicole from TAD discord, so sorry for awkwardly & randomly sliding into your dms. I've noticed that you've been reblogging a lot of The Untamed recently and I have just finished The Untamed & literally cannot think about anything else. I'm obsessed. Anyway, I've also noticed from your blog that your favorite seems to be JGY and I find that *fascinating*. He's very much not my fav, but he's such a complex character that I would love to hear your thoughts & feelings & analysis?

And to be completely clear, I will never try to debate with you or say your opinions are wrong or immoral or anything. I'm not an anti, I've stanned plenty of villains in my time. I'm just genuinely curious. I think the fact that you have such different feelings about this character is part of the beauty of stories and a testament to how complex and smart this particular story is.

Hello friend! First of all, thank you for your ask -- I love talking about my fictional faves, so there’s no need to apologize at all! There are definitely people out there who have already posted much more cohesive and succinct character analysis for JGY, but I’ve sat down for a bit to find an answer to the question of why I, personally, like him so much. I ended up finding six possible ways to answer this question, which I’ll list below and then go into (a lot) more detail under the cut. Hope you enjoy!

1) I like him because his motivations as a villain are complex and understandable

2) I like him because there’s no easy solution to his conflicts

3) I like him because he interacts with the story in a unique way

4) I like him because when we see him on top of his game, it’s fun to watch

5) I like him because LXC likes him

6) JGY is very small and has dimples

So, onward! (2.7k)

1) I like him because his motivations as a villain are complex and understandable

One possible way of looking at JGY is that throughout the entire story, his end goal is to eliminate all of the Jin family and come out on top as sect leader, chief cultivator and most powerful person in the cultivation world. However, I personally find it more intriguing to think that his specific plans shifted throughout the story and that he didn’t follow a long con the way NHS did, but that the common ground in everything he does is that he’s motivated by wanting security. Then, everything that he does afterwards is a step-by-step escalation when no matter what he does and how far he comes, his goal is always dangled right in front of him, but ultimately impossible to reach.

When he joins the Nie clan, on a superficial level it seems that this place could offer him the security he wants and needs, especially with NMJ protecting him -- but on the flip side of the coin, no one apart from NMJ and NHS seem to respect him, and his security entirely depends on NMJ’s goodwill. It’s an exteremely fragile position that could probably only ever last for a limited amount of time. Even if JGY never killed the guard captain and wasn’t thrown out of the Unclean Realm, how would the future have looked like for him? NMJ’s life expectancy was low to begin with, and once he had died (of natural causes, in this hypothetical case), NHS wouldn’t have been able to hold the same protective hand over JGY as his brother, and JGY would have become the disrespected advisor to the disrespected clan leader. (On a side note, I personally don’t think JGY released XY to get the yin iron -- I think it makes more sense that he wanted to use XY as bargaining chips against WC, seeing how he goes to free him immediately after WC asks for NMJ to release XY, to save the Unclean Realm and, in extension, his own ass.)

After JGY is thrown out, he’s basically out of options -- it’s go big or go home, because which other clan would take him in now? So he sets his sight on being recognized by JGS once more, and in order to succeed, he derives the plan of becoming a spy under WRH and do something so “heroical” that after the war, JGS has no other choice but to accept him into his clan. And at first, it seems like he succeeds and that he finally gets everything he wished for -- his father recognizes him as a son and gives him a position, he’s part of the Jin clan, he has power, he’s secure! But then it turns out that he was wishing on the monkey’s paw. His father doesn’t truly recognize him, and even in the Jin clan he’s disrespected (by JGS, by Madam Jin, by Jin Zixun), he doesn’t truly hold power (he just has to do whatever JGS tells him to), and he’s not secure (JGS instrumentalizes him because he’s useful to him right now, but does that mean he’ll be useful forever? So there’s a constant threat there).

I think the only reason JGS officially adopts JGY is that it allows him to claim the victory over WRH for the Jin clan and to expand his own power. Instead of JGY being recognized, JGS instrumentalizes him from the very first second and to make it worse, he makes JGY his attack dog the same way WRH did. I think the things JGY does under both WRH and JGS are absolutely horrifying, but I can’t help but also feel horrified for him. Under WRH, I think he tells himself that whatever he does is the lesser evil because it’ll end the war quicker, and that it’ll all be worth it in the end, and as a result, he loses parts of his own humanity there. And then under JGS, it’s the same fucked up shit again, except that this time, he also wants so very badly for JGS to value him, and in addition, he’s also completely out of options now. Without wanting to excuse the things he does under JGS, the only alternative at this point is for him to leave the Jin clan and the cultivation world as a whole, and I do think there’s a definite possibility that JGS would have him killed if he did because he knew too much about JGS’s plans.

Without passing judgment on his involvement in JZX and JZX’s deaths, as well as him killing NMJ and JGS for now (the latter being the one thing that I’m personally most horrified of), I don’t see JGY as a villain who enjoys being the villain the way XY does. I think he’s constantly horrified at himself and compartmentalizes to a degree where he’s actually derailing his own plans. Him throwing out XY immediately after killing JGS reads to me as him wanting to close the chapter of everything they did under JGS -- I think he must have acted out of a visceral emotion there or else he wouldn’t have left XY to die at the side of a road so carelessly (and, in effect, allowed for someone to live on with detailed knowledge of his own deeds). After rising to power (and finally, seemingly, really getting the security he’s always wanted), he doesn’t use that power to become WRH 3.0, but instead to do genuinely good things (such as building the watch towers). That’s not supposed to mean that him not being a cruel despot makes up for everything he’s done, but I find it interesting to think about from the perspective of, what kind of person could he have been if this opportunity had been given to him freely -- if his own class and social standing didn’t prevent him from that? I think he’d have become an incredibly powerful cultivator and clan leader if he’d have the same privilege as JZX.

In a way, I see JZX, WC, and JGY as narrative foils. WC shows us who JZX might have become if JGS treated him the same way as WRH treats WC. But, JGS doesn’t -- he shields his own son from this part of the Jin clan, and basically allows him to live in a completely different reality as JGY! JZX’s whole character arc is one of personality development, and becoming a hero, and falling in love -- he doesn’t have a clue about his father wanting to get his hands on XY and the Stygian tiger amulet and arguably about at least part of the war crimes he commits against the Wen clan. It’s not part of his life. In a way, JGY is the sacrifice being made to allow him to live his life unaware because in him, JGS found someone else to do his dirty work.

2) I like him because there’s no easy solution to his conflicts

Sometimes, when you want to be a villain apologist, all you need to do is point at one or a few bits of the story and say, “well if they hadn’t done that...”. (See, for example, Anakin Skywalker -- you wanna write a RotS canon divergence fixit? Just have Obi-Wan come back approximately one hour earlier and you have it, because before Anakin kills the Jedi even the Younglings he’s basically completely redeemable.) With JGY, you don’t get to have that. There’s no single turning point where you could say, “if he had picked the other option, he could have had a happy ending”. And part of the reason for that, which makes him a tragic character in my eyes, is that he crucially lacks options at many turning points.

In order to write a canon divergence AU for JGY where he comes out unscathed and redeemable, you’d have to go pretty far back in the story, and even then, you’d have to work hard to find a solution to his story that doesn’t a) rely on someone saving him (such as: LXC brings him to Cloud Recesses, or: JGS has a change of heart, frees his mother, and sends them a comfortable monthly pension), b) having him be dependent on someone else’s goodwill (such as: staying in the Unclean Realm in a delicate position).

If we don’t want to go back right to the very beginning or change fundamental parts of the story, well... As I’ve mused about above, if we let him stay in the Unclean Realm, he’d have never reached his goal of security either. If he never became a spy during the Sunshot Campaign, he wouldn’t have been accepted into the Jin clan and would have been out of options. If he never committed the atrocities for JGS, JGS would probably have kicked him out or killed him. (I do think there’s a lot of truth in what JGY tells NMJ in the empathy flashback, on that instance.) If he didn’t kill NMJ, there is a distinct possibility that NMJ would have killed him -- we see him try three times on screen, after all. (I’m leaving out the parts about him being directly responsible for JZX’s and JZX’s death in the show, as well as for controlling the corpses at Nighless City and JYL’s death, because it’s not in the book and I think it takes away from WWX’s character. As for QS’s and their son’s deaths...I personally do not see strong motivation for him to kill them, but in the end, we just don’t know which is, on a side note, a thing I really like about The Untamed/MDZS! Sometimes we just don’t know because the only people who know for sure can’t tell us anymore.) One option could be for him to confide to JZX, bring him over to his own side, and non-violently overthrow JGS, which would be a good and satisfying ending both to his and JZX’s character arcs -- but I also think there’s a high possibility JZX would hold JGY responsible for what he and JGS did, and never trust him with power again.

(Again, one thing I really do not wish to excuse away is how he killed JGS, and I just. Desperately wished he didn’t.)

I’ve been going over and over the possibilites for fix-its and canon divergence AUs, but in the end, I’ve arrived at the conclusion that the only real choice JGY has throughout the story is whether to remove himself from the narrative or stay in it. He could make the choice to give up his mother’s dream, reject his father, and leave cultivation world (and, on a meta level, the story!) to become a “nobody”. (Small side note, though -- living on which skills?) If he doesn’t -- well, as soon as he enters the game, the cards are stacked against him.

To pick up on the meta level comment, I do find it fascinating that in a sense, JGY not only has to struggle for respect and recognition within the story, but that what he does also serves to keep his character part of the story. He could choose to give up and leave (and thus come out of the story redeemable), but then he wouldn’t be part of the story anymore.

3) I like him because he interacts with the story in a unique way

Continuing with the last point, JGY interacts with the story in two unique ways that distinguish him basically from all the other characters. He’s not actually supposed to be part of the story, but that he basically claws his way in. But that also means that his class and social status cannot be removed from any of the conflicts he encounters in universe -- they’re at the heart of all of them. In the empathy flashback, he says to NMJ, “You always scold me for indecent scheming. You always say that you are just and straight [...] A decent man shouldn’t resort to devious stratagems. [...] You’re of noble birth and have profound cultivation. What about me? How can I be the same? First, I don’t have the foundation of cultivation. No one has ever taught me that since I was a child! Second, I don’t have any background. Do you think that my position is very solid in the Jin clan of Lanling?” What I find so intriguing about this scene is that he’s right when he says he’s different from the others both in text and on a meta level because most of the other characters are never faced with the same decisions and have a natural place within the story (apart, to some degree, WWX and XY, where also interesting parallels can be drawn). And the other characters are, in a way, self-righteous to judge him when almost none of them come out of the story without blood on their hands -- WWX’s revenge, JC torturing demonic cultivators after WWX’s death, and so on...The entire cultivation world (even NMJ! even LXC!) were complicit in the war crimes against the Wen. But when the cultivation world turns against JGY, they are the most appalled by the things I as a viewer would be the most lenient towards (murdering JGS), and don’t care at all about the thing that horrifies me the most (murdering the sex workers).

There’s an interesting post by @pumpkinpaix​ analysing how class dynamics work in the story, which I highly recommend! I don’t want to repeat what has been said there already in much better ways than I can, but among other things, it makes some really interesting points about how much JGY’s class is tied with his motivations.

4) I like him because when we see him on top of his game, it’s fun to watch

Aside from any analysis, part of the reason why I like him so much is that when he’s acting as a villain, he’s just so much fun to watch. When WWX breaks into his vault in paperman form and JGY has approximately 5 minutes to get rid of the head, the torture bench (?) and anything suspicious, contact and inform Su She, run to a different building and come back, and nonetheless he manages to convince everyone but WWX and LWJ that he’s the victim in this situation, it’s just. Peak entertainment? For a short time, he’s on top of the game, and then he’s backed into a corner and becomes sloppy, and finally loses it all due to sentimentality (if he didn’t want to take his mother’s body with him and say goodbye to LXC, I’m sure he could have fled the country). I think Zhu Zanjin did an amazing job as an actor to portray how JGY is constantly assessing everything, how 23638 emotions flicker over his face in half a second, how his whole body language shows the constant anxiety and pressure and stress and fear he’s under, and how we actually get to see in his microexpressions when JGY chooses a path and commits to the acting and emotional manipulation to follow it through.

5) I like him because LXC likes him 

Here’s a secret: Actually, LXC is my favourite character. And LXC loves JGY a lot. So I’m kind of contractually obliged to at least love JGY a little bit as well?

On a more serious note, I’m very intrigued in their relationship because I do think what they had was genuine. I view it as two people being very open and honest and true with each other, while placing a lot of things outside the brackets and crossing them out. LXC even says that he was aware of some things JGY did (which ones? how? I need to know) but that he justified them to himself. I think they both realised that they could have had something very special, but under the given circumstances, LXC wouldn’t have been able to help JGY (see: point 2) even if he knew everything. Still, they were obviously very close and trusted each other as much as they could. I think in the end, when LXC seemed to have decided to stay and die with him, JGY pushed him away because he was the only genuinely good part of his life, and he felt like he couldn’t rightfully deprive the world of LXC. It’s all very tragic, and I’m very intrigued to explore what they could have been in a slightly softer world.

6) JGY is very small and has dimples

I can only speak for myself, but when I was watching, I was so prone at any point to believe in him no matter what was revealed. Look at him! Could this man do something wrong?

#buttercup-the-bard #ask #jin guangyao #the untamed #cql #meng yao #mdzs #my post #cql meta

[crossdressingdeath]

(1/3) It always amuses me how stans try to justify JC actions by his abusive upbringing while there were 3 children in that family and both others turned very kind and/or very moral and not at all like JC (and frankly, he didn't even have the hardest position in the dysfunctional dynamic). Or LXC and LWJ whose upbringing was even more screwed up with a LQ who was certainly playing favorites and wanting perfection, and yet this never draw a wedge between them or created any jealousy.

(2/3)LXC loves for LWJ to excel! Same with "but JC had it so hard rebuilding Lotus Pier, WWX was goofing off with the Wens"...JC was paying people to do that for him, yes, while WWX was trying to start from scratch a settlement over a mountain of corpses with a bunch of weak or old people and not to die of hunger comes winter. While separated from all his friends and hated as a monster by the cultivation world. "But JC was so lonely during the 13/16y, so that justifies him lashing out" And WWX

(3/3) was dead, killed by his brother and thinking that there was not a person left on his side in the end, and yet, that didn't make him act like a dick? Or athg else really, because everything that JC went through in the past, WWX did also, but in a worse way because he lost his parents young, lived in the streets, didn't have JC societal privilege or money and has to harness an unstable necromancy practice on top of that. And yet no one uses it as arguments to explain his actions, only for JC 

Honestly? While none of the Jiang kids were in a good position, out of the three of them... JC did have it the easiest. It was still awful for him, don’t get me wrong, I’m not suggesting his childhood didn’t suck, but given it was made very clear to JYL that her only purpose was to be married off to JZX so her mother could tie her bloodline to her best friend’s and WWX was treated like a servant at best... Yeah. If I had to pick, I’d choose having a distant father and dealing with a mother who’s constantly emotionally abusive over having a distant father and dealing with a mother who’s constantly emotionally abusive and being treated like a bargaining chip/treated like a servant and/or bastard and being whipped for actions that would get the rest of the clan a lecture at worst. Again, I’m not saying JC didn’t have it bad, but his siblings having it worse is... interesting, given neither of them decided to be dicks to Literally Everyone over it.

I do have to say, even though this is about JC, there’s nothing suggesting LQR was playing favourites with LXC and LWJ. He was strict, yes, probably stricter than he should’ve been, and LXC probably did get more one-on-one interaction with him, but given LXC was going to be sect leader/became sect leader at a young age that makes sense. This is not super important to the point of this post, but I do find it odd how often people make LQR out to be this horrible person who’s always awful to his nephews because he’s Strict when we... don’t actually know anything about how he raised them. I don’t like him all that much, and he probably didn’t do a fantastic job of raising them, but the man did try, and he clearly wants his nephews to be safe and happy (even though he has inaccurate views of what that entails...), and given how the parents/parental figures of the cast generally act he deserves some credit for that. Also the Twin Jades ended up considerably better-adjusted than most of their age group, which... isn’t saying much all things considered but it does say something. If nothing else neither of them seem to feel actively unsafe around him, so he’s definitely not the worst parental figure in this novel.

...I had a surprising number of thoughts on LQR there. Whoops, sorry about the tangent. Maybe I’ll make a post about him at some point. Anyway, yeah, LXC and LWJ clearly adore each other! LXC would be delighted if LWJ surpassed him at something! Same with Nie bros; they argue a lot, but there’s no denying that they love each other. That’s what insults and threats out of love look like; NMJ threatens NHS all the time, but NHS clearly isn’t all that bothered by it until JGY starts fucking with NMJ’s mind and the threats become more serious, which really isn’t NMJ’s fault. It’s because in the other sibling relationships both parties are invested in staying close. They love each other and want to be close for the rest of their lives! Meanwhile JC is obsessed with WWX outperforming him at Literally Everything, and WWX genuinely believes that JC is allowed to treat him the way he does and it’s fine and healthy.

And yeah, JC wasn’t exactly rebuilding Lotus Pier all by his lonesome with his own two hands. In fact, going by what we see all the rebuilding was done well before WWX left! And I don’t doubt for a second that WWX was involved in that process; I have very mixed feelings about the scene in CQL where he blows off his duties to go and get drunk, because on the one hand it does do a good job of showing just how bad his mental state is getting (and how JC refuses to acknowledge it despite WWX obviously being Not Okay), but on the other hand... I just can’t see WWX not throwing himself into helping JC with everything he’s got even while his mental state is coming crashing down around him. I mean, this is the guy who created an incredibly powerful weapon that even he couldn’t fully control, not knowing what using it would do to him, to help his brother win a war. I’m pretty much certain that WWX ran himself into the ground helping JC rebuild and run the sect... then when he found himself in charge of a small group of desperate people, scrambling to keep them fed and clothed and healthy, JC just abandoned him to deal with it on his own.

And the whole “Oh, but JC was so lonely, don’t you feel bad for him?” shtick. I hate it so much. If he didn’t want to be lonely, he should’ve considered that before alienating everyone in his age group and leading an army to murder his brother, the only person left who was willing to put up with him! It’s... really hard to feel bad for someone who’s brought most of their suffering on themselves through a series of generally shitty and frequently downright cruel actions with easily foreseeable consequences. If he got sick of being alone, he should’ve apologized to his peers for being a dick to... literally all of them and tried to make amends and strike up some sort of relationship. Or, if that didn’t work, go out! Meet new people! Try not to be as awful to them! Also, he’s a sect leader. If he couldn’t even maintain a positive relationship with other sect leaders, people who, let me remind you, he has to work with on a regular basis and several of whom are actually nice and friendly people, that is on him. If you are awful to people you will end up alone. And then JC decided to respond to learning that the people he was a dick to every time he saw them (and, in LWJ and NHS’s cases, caused the death of someone they cared about) wanted nothing to do with him... by whining about how lonely he was as if that wasn’t largely his fault. Like, he lost his family and that’s awful, but he could have had friends to help him through his grief, and it’s his own damn fault that he doesn’t.

WWX’s life was miserable. He had plenty of friends, yeah, but he spent years on the streets after his parents died brutal deaths; was raised in a family where he was treated like a servant and a scapegoat; lost everything in an event he was blamed for despite having nothing to do with the attack; had to sacrifice his incredibly powerful golden core (thereby losing his primary means of defending himself while on the run and drastically shortening his lifespan) to keep his brother from letting himself die; was thrown into a corpse pit for three months where he had to create an entirely new and experimental (and as such incredibly dangerous) form of cultivation and probably resort to cannibalism just to survive; had to fight a war almost immediately after escaping; spent a... good portion of time (not sure how long exactly because the MDZS timeline is more a suggestion than an actual coherent timeline) being treated alternately as a tame pet or a rabid animal and having to pretend everything was just fine while everyone tried to either control him or remove him and his brother very obviously got increasingly resentful of his skill and power; had to abandon his home, his family, and everything he had left of his old life to save a bunch of innocent people while everyone, including his brother, acted like he’d gone mad for not wanting to let them die horribly; had to go back to the corpse pit he spent three months in because it was the only place where they might be safe; accidentally killed his brother-in-law due to losing control after being ambushed on the way to a celebration for his nephew that he was invited to by people he trusted, almost certainly making him wonder on at least some level if that was why he was invited; lost two members of his new family who he clearly loved because of said accidental murdering; learned their deaths were for nothing and, when he retaliated against the planned attack that shouldn’t have happened because that’s what WQ and WN gave their lives to prevent, saw his beloved sister die to save him; and, after all that, lost the rest of his new family to a siege on a civilian population led by his brother. And after all that, his response was... to destroy the incredibly dangerous weapon he’d made because he didn’t trust the sects to not destroy each other and themselves with it and kill himself rather than risk losing control again and hurting anyone else. In the novel too; I don’t doubt for a second that WWX planned on dying in that siege, even if he didn’t expect destroying the seal to do it.

Take a look at that paragraph. All those things that happened to WWX. And in the end, he was kind. He was so, so kind, and remains kind even after thirteen years of being dead. He would have been well within his rights to go all “Then let me be evil” on the sects, but every time he attacked them they struck first, and most of the serious damage he did happened as a direct result of losing control of his experimental and mostly unknown new cultivation, which is a real risk even with spiritual cultivation; NMJ probably would have happily killed everyone in Qinghe if the qi deviation hadn’t gotten to him first, given how easy it was for him to attack even his beloved little brother. Everything bad that happened to JC is on that list, pretty much. Everything that JC suffered WWX did too, with some variations in the details (and of course dead versus alone for the same period of time). JC had the advantage of a sect at his back and a high rank by virtue of his birth, while WWX’s position was entirely reliant on JFM and, later, JC. And yet some people insist that WWX’s trauma doesn’t excuse his actions but JC’s somehow does. Now, some people argue it’s different because WWX was a mass murderer. Yeah, well, JC’s a fucking serial killer, and he doesn’t have the excuse of losing control due to using resentful energy to cultivate and being attacked by everyone he’d ever known and trusted.

...I’ve kind of lost track of where I’m going with this. Short version: I very strongly disagree with anyone who insists WWX’s trauma doesn’t excuse his actions while bending over backwards to argue that JC’s trauma excuses his.

#well that got... long #and probably not super fun #i have Thoughts about this particular subject it seems #grapehate #asks #anon

[isozyme]

ASDJFKLkj i would love to hear your lxc and xxc thoughts!! esp abt how they are /not/ cinammon roles, so sweet, so pure, etc etc. are there any songs you associate with those characters? are there any oddly specific headcanons you have for them?

i have a large number of thoughts! surprisingly!

songs required some hunting, but here:

lan xichen gets hero by regina spektor (i'm the hero of the story/don't need to be saved/it’s alright/it’s alright/it’s alright/it’s alright).

xiao xingchen gets the debt collectors by the jane austen argument (see, the debt collector's coming/he's come to take my tongue/so I can't sing any songs any more)

more lxc thoughts:

has a savior complex a mile and a half wide

holds a deep, unexamined belief that he’s better than his brother

isn’t ever going to completely forgive wwx for what his death did to lz

i have a deeply ingrained headcanon with minimal evidence that lan xichen is not a faithful partner. he’s discreet about it. he considers it quite gauche to allow someone to discover you’re sleeping around on them. but his understanding of the world is that, with the exception of hyper-monogamous weirdos like his brother and wwx, everyone has sex outside their marriages, they’re just polite about it and keep it under wraps. he absolutely keeps fucking jgy after he’s married qin su. does not bat an eye.

he’s also kind, loves very deeply, and has an excellent hold on his temper

lxc is really interesting to me because he’s the only character who is, at the end, ready to go to his death passively. he shuts his eyes and gives up, ready to let jgy drag him down with him. i find it immensely sad that he’s the only character whose spirit breaks like that. post-canon lxc is never going to be okay again.

bless this smug bastard who thinks he’s figured out the path to goodness, kindness and propriety and is planning to walk it perfectly until he dies only to have the rug pulled out from under him in a SPECTACULAR fashion

i absolutely cannot imagine this man being Intimate With A Woman

he’s so judgmental

and so funny about it

the only thing funnier than a catty gossip pal is a SECRETLY catty gossip pal

more xxc thoughts:

i have thought less about xxc than lxc. i mostly think the yi city trio function better as a parable than as characters in their own right

however: xxc never smiles at song lan the way he does at a-qing and xue yang. that thin smile of unvarnished delight is reserved for criminals only

it’s not that he’s a bad person, exactly. he’s just charmed by a little bit of wickedness. the standards he holds himself to and the standards he applies to other people are different.

also has a savior complex

bit of a common theme in untamed characters, huh

you just get the sense that if the situation called for it, xxc could unhinge his jaw and stone-cold eat a baby. not that i can imagine the situation. but he could.

i see why both lxc and xxc get reduced down to perfect angels whose only mistakes were loving the wrong person. i also see why sometimes they get slammed as passive actors who sit by while atrocities happen. i think the most interesting character interpretations take a mix of both! being kind and good and careful does not save you from being involved in horrible things (especially not if you live in the world of the untamed! yikes!)

#they're good characters brent #the untamed #lxc is good but he is also......bad #he also becomes clan leader at what? #can't be more than twenty-five #that's NOT OLD ENOUGH #Anonymous

[bottomlwjrights]

MO DAO ZU SHI REREAD:Thoughts™️....and Stuff

Chapter 37

Ljy volunteers to use his blood to summon more mannequins, after which a bunch of juniors start to volunteer theirs

Wwx is SO fucking cool....

Xy giving wwx advice while acting like xxc makes me sick, thanks

I hate how good he is at acting like xxc, he has wwx completely convinced

“Jin Ling laughed at him without holding back at all. Even Lan SiZhui couldn’t stop himself from bursting with a “pfft”. Speechless, Wei WuXian turned to look at them, and Lan SiZhui put on a straight face at once.” Jsnck i love lsz

God i feel so bad about sl and xxc, A-Qing too

“As the cultivator heard the sound, despite how his figure reeled and his hands trembled, he still attacked at Wei WuXian!He couldn’t be controlled. This corpse had a master!” This is still so chilling

...wwx rewarded the nether brawlers by giving them his blood 

“On the cultivator’s left chest, near his heart, there was a similar tearing, a similar thin, narrow wound. It seemed as if he died with a stab through the heart.” I fucking hate xue yang ☺️

“Wei WuXian pinched his cheeks and forced him to open his mouth. Inside, his tongue had also been pulled out from the root.” Hate him so much ☺️☺️☺️

Was lsz the only one to raise his hand from the lan clan? Is he the only one of the juniors that knew inquiry? Im asking for... yanno... reasons

“Xiao XingChen’s most intimate friend of cultivation, Song Lan?!” Yes that one, the one he gouged out both of his eyes for

“‘SiZhui, you’re the most sensible one here. Guide them a bit, won’t you? Can you do that?’ Lan SiZhui nodded. Wei WuXian added, ‘Don’t be scared.’ Lan SiZhui, ‘I am not.’ ‘Really?’ ‘Really.’ Lan SiZhui smiled, ‘Senior, you are so much like HanGuang-Jun.’” this exchange ko’d me, like knocked me clean tf out. Wwx reassuring him gently, lsz smiling and telling him hes not scared, lsz saying wwx is a lot like lwj 

“‘Us? How are we alike?’ They were obviously like fire and ice. However, Lan SiZhui only grinned in reply, and led the rest of the group out.” I am crying

“It is as though if either one of the two seniors are present, I will not need to be scared or worry about anything.” 😭😭😭😭😭

Hmmmm when did xy find out it was wwx????

Oh it was the whistling that made him suspicious, and then how powerful his Summoning of Painted Eyes was, gotcha

“When they were still alive, the person probably suffered from a lot of torture. It should’ve been rather painful. They probably committed suicide, so they probably don’t want to come back to this world. If a soul itself doesn’t have any desire to live, then it’ll most likely be impossible to save.” Yanno i dont think its ever explicitly talked about how wwx died, and im not trying to be angsty here, but his soul literally couldn’t be summoned, by anybody....

I hate xue yang!!!!!

Fuck you, dont give xy cute canines, he doesnt deserve them. Me and wwx however....

“I have a very famous friend. His acting is what I’d call excellent. I still have a long way to go.” Xy is literally talking about jgy right here

Xy made the nails that were controlling wn, which meant he put them in wn’s head, which means id like to resurrect xy just to kill him again

“Wei WuXian really couldn’t understand why strangers always had an inexplicable sense of confidence in place of him.”

WEN NING!!!!

AHHHHH FUCK HIM UP BABY

“Wen Ning is not a thing.” From wwx himself, people

Maybe if you wanted xxc’s soul, you shouldnt have, idk, forced him to kill innocent people and his best friend against his knowledge and drove him to suicide, just a thought, Xue Yang

Lwj is strong

“Before he finished his sentence, a white-robed figure descended from the sky. Bichen’s icy blue glare swept at him.” Lwj desending from the sky looking like an angel 

(chapter 38 & chapter 39 below the cut)

Chapter 38

“Surrounded by an ambience of frost and ice, Lan WangJi stood in front of Wei WuXian.” 

“The glare of the sword that he pulled from his sleeve was grim and dark. As it was wielded, it almost seemed to emit a black aura, creating a stark contrast with Shuanghua’s silver radiance.” 😩 Jiangzai 😩

Gotta give it too him, xy is a talented swordsman

So does wn feel pain or does he not feel pain, pick one

“‘Good. If anyone doesn’t listen to me, I’ll feed him congee again.’ The few boys who had encountered the taste pretended as if they were vomiting.” This interaction....

Lan WangJi, you’re so cool 😩

Jl’s admiration for his senior cultivators is just..... so cute

“‘Hmm. He’s good. Of course. He’s really good. He’s the best.’ As he talked, he couldn’t help but break into a smile.” Stoooooop

God wwx just shouting to lwj that hes gonna leave, and its up to him now, and lwj just agreeing, wwx laughing....like the trust, the belief in the other’s abilities, the ease with which they communicate even in tense situations

“Why did you two not say ‘I’m worried about you. I’m staying!’, ‘Go!’, ‘No! I’m not going! If I’m going, you’re going with me!’? Is it not a must?” Ljy really knows what’s going on between them, why else would he say something like this???

“It’s a waste of time. I believe that someone as reliable as HanGuang-Jun will definitely be able to deal with it.” Aknfnc like yeah lwj is known to be strong, but wwx completely trusts in his abilities, like he’s not overly worried or protective like a lot of partners tend to be, he just trusts him

“With both of his feet together, he tried to jump outside. However, since the threshold was too high, he failed every attempt.” This is hilarious, and the juniors thought so too

Wwx respects non-cultivators

A-Qing grabs xxc’s face and cries when his coffin is opened 😢

Interesting that wwx invented Empathy, a way for you to...well empathize with spirits in a way that you couldn’t before, and people still think it’s an evil method 

“Wei WuXian stared at the bell for a few moments. Sensing that he looked a bit off, Jin Ling asked, ‘What?’ Wei WuXian replied, ‘Nothing.’” Wow.....that hurted

Hmmmm hate xue yang

“Since they felt the same things, it was as though the squeeze landed on Wei WuXian’s body. Instantaneously, Wei WuXian felt as if a blanket of goosebumps climbed over his heart. He wanted no less than to slam the man into the ground.” And if he could’ve, i bet he would’ve

Oh, Xiao XingChen....

Chapter 39

He’s so kind...

Actually A-Qing was 100% in the right, she should have kept that mans money

Have i mentioned how gross it is that a grown man groped A-Qing, who wwx describes as looking no older than 15 years old, because its gross

It makes me so fucking angry the things xy did, and the reason he was so good at imitating xxc

“Although she didn’t know whether he was dead or alive, most likely thinking that it’d be a drag either way, she obviously didn’t want Xiao XingChen to find the person.” A-Qing...

“Of course, a dead person was less of a hassle than a living one, so A-Qing couldn’t wait for the person to die.” Alfnfjfkb A-Qing wtf.... 

She was right though, i wish he would’ve just died too but here we are

It shouldve been A-Qing getting that piggy back ride

Xxc deserved so much better.....

Xxc is so sweet, it makes what happened to him even worse

Xy having a casual conversation with xxc and making him laugh is actually making me sick

A-Qing is smart to be wary of xy, to eavesdrop and follow them

I hate Xue Yang!!!!! So much!!!! He’s pure evil!!! Hes not evil in a fun way, hes for real evil, causes-suffering-for-entertainment type evil!!!

#mdzs #mo dao zu shi #mine #Phoenix rereads MDZS #wangxian #lwj #wwx #wn #lsz #ljy #a-qing #xxc #xy #god i hate him!!!! #i dont even wanna give that mf a tag

[crossdressingdeath]

And it's not so much the fans, but the way most of JC meta is always written as an attempt to tug at your emotions “look at his childhood!” “look at JFM totally favoring WWX!” “look at WWX betraying him!” which is clearly meant to make you feel sorry for him and sort of manipulate you into feeling guilty for judging anything he has ever done. I was reading some self-declared JGY apologism recently to see if it’d make me change my opinion on the character, and it felt very different. Just an1/4

examination of all facts in canon with an attempt to reconstruct his full character arc, no reference to elaborate arguments constructed on fanon, no one was trying to make me believe that his murders were justified by his sad childhood or were anything else than choices he made in answer to surrounding circumstances. It’s a whole thing with JC fans that he’s supposed to never be in control of what he does, feels or acts, it’s always his childhood trauma, inferiority complex (lol, where),2/4

his youth, the other sect leaders, so we can’t really hold him responsible for any of it. (I remember a long meta on how JC really couldn’t save the Wens because he was dependent on money from the Jin sect to reconstruct LP (which is fanon, I think?), so he really didn’t have a choice but not to do anything for them. OP, you have just written that he chose not to save the Wens because it would benefit him financially, how is it not a choice?) And weirdly, JC meta always has the highest3/4

“are we even reading the same book with the same characters” takes ratio compared to others, even more controversial/villain characters.4/4

Yeah, I’ve noticed that too. JGY meta is actually some of my favourite because it tends to be remarkably unbiased (by which I mean yes they’re going for a specific conclusion but it’s based entirely on facts that we see in canon and interpreting those facts with a good amount of acknowledging that the things he gets up to are still Incredibly Fucked Up even if they’re sympathetic towards him), but JC meta... yeesh. It’s very much “If you judge him for the betrayal and the slaughter of civilians and the torturing people to death and whatnot you’re a soulless monster who refuses to acknowledge the suffering of others!” which is... honestly just kind of boring after a while and exceedingly irritating if you’re interested in an Actual Critical Analysis. Honestly I’d argue the whole “It’s not his fault, he can’t control anything!” thing his fans always seem to end up insisting on isn’t doing him any more favours than just acknowledging he’s a self-centred overgrown brat who refuses to consider anyone besides himself, because they do always end up arguing that the leader of one of the four most powerful sects in the entire novel is so incredibly, unbelievably terrible at literally everything related to his job that he can’t politic his way out of a wet paper bag, though. Which is funny! As you mention with the meta that basically ended up arguing that JC let the Wens die so he could get money from the man holding his purse strings (and yeah, there’s no evidence of that in canon; in fact all evidence suggests Yunmeng was doing too well for itself and making the other sects antsy), it’s genuinely hilarious when in their attempts to make JC look good they end up making him look absolutely terrible. But yeah, there does seem to be a disproportionately large amount of “did we even read the same book” arguments. Frequently with absolutely nothing backing up their reading of his character, and of the meta that does give an actual argument frequently requiring so much twisting of events that it usually makes him look worse than he would have if they just... admitted he did fucked up things like pretty much everyone who’s not a JC does with their faves in this fandom. Personally I think it’s because antis enter the fandom and see this bastard who tortures people to death for being vaguely associated with someone he hates and makes everything about him and insists that it’s always someone else’s fault when things go wrong even if he was directly responsible for the situation that went wrong and latch onto him hard, although I will happily acknowledge that it’s a theory with very little weight behind it and to make it very clear I’m talking specifically about the “JC did nothing wrong and everyone is just so mean to him and if you’re critical of him that makes you a terrible person!” crowd and not people who just happen to like JC. But that’s my feeling.

#mdzs #cql #grapehate #anon #asks