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peachymess · 5 years

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I get the impression that you aren't someone who would have a villain or antagonist character as a fav character (unless it was a character you already liked who used to be a hero)

That really really depends. I have a lot of antagonistic favs, actually. Sure, most of them come from my teenage years, but I don’t shy away from exploring a character just because they’re set up as the “bad guy”. It’s never been about good characters vs evil characters for me, but about complexity, reliability and heart. Morals have taken a stronger and stronger position for me as I’ve grown older - as I grew out of my edgy “fuck the world” mentality, and transitioned into “being hurt is ok, but at the end of the day, as an adult, I expect you to not extend that onto the next person”. Morals is not the end-all-be-all by any means; some of my favs are favs just for being so delightfully evil, but more so, I LOVE a villain whose actions and skewed morals you can trace back to complex, believable origins. Often, people who are the most evil, are often the most hurt. I love me some complex, broken babies. I think whatever appeals to my heart most (or first), takes the price of fav home.

Some of my antagonistic favs:

And the list goes on and on. Now, some of these are redeemed, but they all start out as evil. No, wait, some of them are not directly evil, but are non the less antagonistic or presented as such from the POV of the story/MCs - which was the theme of your ask; me (not) having the antagonist of any given story, as my favorite character from said story.Now, I think whether I enjoy the “delightfully evil”s or not, depends on how seriously I take the fiction I’m engaging with. If I sit down and truly try think like someone living in that world, where I allow the feelings of the fictional characters involved to matter to me, I’ll sooner come to love the ones who value “good” morals more - but even that is not *always* the case (case in point: GOT, one of my favorite shows).There’s also a difference between child antagonists and adult antagonists. The older you get, the less I forgive evil behavior. As an adult, I expect you to be responsible enough, aware enough, and strong enough to limit your personal problems to wound only yourself. I also think that you, after having lived a good number of years, definitely have had enough insight into the world to make better judgements on what are “good” morals over all. A child who has been physically abused by his/her parents are less likely to know that violence is not a way of showing affection - whereas an adult should have seen enough of the world to know it’s not ok, even if that’s their impulse given their upbringing (example: I love Crona but HATE Medusa).

Children,… we could probably debate this forever, but to me, there is no such thing as a truly evil child. They can’t be held accountable for their actions and lashings out as much; they are still being molded by us, the adults, and the world around them. Their “evil”, is a reflection of the evil they see or have experienced themselves (Olly and Gabi have my protection forever, I am appalled at those who hate them for their actions). I am thus much more likely to love an antagonistic child character, because I wish so much better for them and my heart will bleed for them. But then again… if I don’t see them as evil, do they count as an “evil/antagonistic” character? For the sake of defending against “you don’t ever favorite a character that’s made an antagonist by its fiction”, I say they count. Because, for instance, Zuko (or “Ponytail”, as I personally named him), is introduced as an antagonist (even if he’s hardly evil), and he’s my single most favorite in the ATLA series. That being said, even if I don’t have a character as my favorite, or I criticize a character’s actions based on my own moral compass - that doesn’t mean I don’t strive to understand them - or that I don’t have them as a second or third fav. I can feel pain on characters’ behalf even if I dislike them, too. I often do - even as I don’t agree with them. In the waters of my Historia post, for instance, she’s still young, so there’s something to be argued about how hard I should go on her - but even when I draw hard lines that I expect characters of (almost) any age not to cross (or hate them for crossing), I still strive to understand them as a person, “good v bad” aside.

… Still, I guess, when both the protagonists and the antagonists are equally broken and equally complex, I favor those that put value into holding on to “good” morals even as they hurt, as opposed to those that allow their hardships to excuse their own antagonistic behaviors. Prioritizing good morals is - in itself - a sign of good morals. Thank you for the (no question) ask, haha. It’s an interesting take on me; i definitely see where it’s coming from, though I think I’m more lenient than I must appear.

#ask #anon #personal #abt me

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nyangibun · 7 years

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GoT 7x07 Finale Thoughts

So it’s finally here. The finale. The epic conclusion for this epic season... lol I’m kidding. This season has been a mess and so was this episode. But as always, let’s begin to unpack the nonsense to hopefully find some sense to it all.

We begin the episode with Grey Worm and the Unsullied and Bron and Jaime overlooking them before the Dothraki come riding up. At first, I’ll be honest, I was wondering how the hell Grey Worm managed to escape Casterly Rock while Euron surrounded the place with his ships? Of course, it’s because everyone’s going to the Dragonpit meeting and bringing the might of their armies in the case it all goes to shit. I find that interesting because if not for this meeting, I believed there was no way Grey Worm would’ve come out unscathed. I still feel like either Grey Worm or Missandei is going to die soon and it’s going to take a large toll on the other, forcing them to question their previously unwavering loyalty to Dani.

Nevertheless, this episode isn’t about that. It was just a stray thought. Let’s move onto the next scene, which I found interesting. Jon looks towards King’s Landing and asks, “why would anyone want to live there?” which just goes to cement his love for the North. So repeat after me, Jon Snow would never be happy in King’s Landing or anywhere south of Winterfell. It’s not who he is. It’ll never be who he is because Jon Snow is loyal to the North. Although it really doesn’t feel like it this episode, we’ll get to that in a moment.

There are a lot of reunions happening during the Dragonpit scenes. A lot of it feels very gratuitous, like D&D is all ‘look we got all your favs in one place, isn’t this cool!’ But nah D&D, what would be cool is a consistent and sensical plot with character continuity. Nevertheless, this is what we got and I did really love the interactions between Tyrion and Podrick, Tyrion and Bronn and the original OT3 together again. Also, the little exchange between Brienne and the Hound was kind of adorable, which is not an adjective I would’ve used for their relationship. I just really liked how proud they both seemed of Arya.

On this walk to the Dragonpit, there was one conversation that I paid particular attention to, which was Jorah talking about the history of the Dragonpit and why it was created:

“Dragons don’t understand the difference between what is theirs and what isn’t. Land, livestock, children. Letting them roam free around the city was a problem.”

We’ve already seen that this is the case with Dani’s dragons when it burnt a child and I feel like this may come up again in S8. Look, if centuries of Targaryens couldn’t control their dragons, how will Dani? She ain’t that special. Even she’s said that those dragons can’t be tamed. They’re a danger to Westeros, just as the Others are. Both ‘Ice’ and ‘Fire’ are destructive forces to the fate of the Seven Kingdoms. By the end of the story, both will die.

Speaking of dragons, Dani flying down to the Dragonpit meeting on a dragon when last we left her she was on the boat with Jon was so extra. It was actually quite uncomfortable to watch because it was such a gratuitous scene. On the one hand, Dani is asserting her power, using her dragons to once again instil fear in her enemies. If I had dragons, I’d do it too. It’s a good power move. But on the other hand, she’s there to strike up a truce and speak calmly about a larger threat, so this feels unnecessary. The power move thus feels more arrogant and kind of dumb under the circumstances, and clearly, Cersei felt the same way. The unimpressed look she had when Dani arrived says it all. And that’s the thing. Cersei may be a cold-hearted bitch, but she stands her ground in the face of her enemies, she looks them in the eye and says, “that it?” because she refuses to let them intimidate her. It’s awesome. She’s awesome. You can’t help loving her whenever she’s on screen.

Now we have the long awaited reveal of the wight. First of all, I still think it’s a dumb idea and will always think it’s a dumb idea, but I guess it got everyone to understand the scope of what they’re facing up North even if it is a stupid contrived way to get everyone together. There are several things I want to unpack about the following scenes, so I’m going to start with the simplest: Euron.

He makes a great show of not wanting to face the wights and wanting to sail back to the Iron Islands and hide out there till everything is over. I honestly believed it too until Cersei revealed her real plan to have Euron bring over the Golden Company while Jon and Dani are up fighting the Others. It’s clever, it’s underhanded and it’s so completely Cersei. And finally, we see Euron being utilised. I’m actually really excited to see him play a larger role in S8, which I think he will. With that in mind, now we fast forward a little to Theon winning over Yara’s men to go save her from Euron. I’m so proud of him, so proud of his ability to fight through his PTSD to do what he feels is right and proving to people (characters & audience alike) that he’s not a coward. But now, how many men does Theon even have? Not that many from the looks of it, and Euron is about to go pick up the Golden Company. I think Theon is going to tail after Euron from a distance, figure out what they’re planning and hopefully send a raven to Jon. After all, I think it’d be pretty easy to tell that Euron isn’t sailing for the Iron Islands and is instead going to Essos. But I don’t see how Theon will successfully get Yara back. Him dying on a failed mission also feels unsatisfying after everything he’s gone through, but I also don’t see how he’ll be able to take on Euron’s fleet.

That’s speculation for another day I guess.

Moving on, let’s get right down to it. Jon’s (dumbass) speech:

“I am true to my word or I try to be. That is why I cannot give you what you ask. I cannot serve two queens and I’ve already pledged myself to Queen Daenerys of House Targaryen.”

And then this bit:

“I’m not gonna swear an oath I can’t uphold. Talk about my father if you want, tell me that’s the attitude that got him killed, but when enough people make false promises, words stop meaning anything, then there are no more answers, only better and better lies. And lies won’t help us in this fight.”

This speech is highly contradictory to the above speech because Jon did swear an oath and that was to the North as their king. As their king, he is to uphold his duties to them and to his people as best as he can, and that does not include giving Dani the North and pledging their allegiance to her. It doesn’t work like that. The Northern houses are proud men and women, who are loyal to their own and definitely not to a Targaryen queen, so they won’t kneel. Or did everyone forget what happened when Jon said he was going to Dragonstone?

“Your Grace, with respect I must agree with Lady Sansa. I remember the Mad King all too well. A Targaryen cannot be trusted, nor can a Lannister.“

“We called your brother king, and then he rode south and lost his kingdom.”

“Winter is here, Your Grace. We need the King in the North in the north.“

This is all seems rather foreboding and I still believe Jon is going to lose the North in S8. They’re all sailing to Winterfell now. How well would Jon be received when he arrives with Dani in tow? How well would the Northern houses take to Dani, a Targaryen? Nevertheless, what I’m trying to say is Jon swearing his fealty to Dani is a betrayal to the North in and of itself, so saying that he’s not going to swear an oath he can’t uphold is hypocritical at best because that is his first and foremost oath.

Unless he’s not betraying it at all. Unless he’s saying it because he has no intention of not upholding his oath to the North.

Also, it’s interesting Jon brings up Ned and how he’d rather be honest than make false promises, but that’s a lie. He made false promises to Ygritte and to the Wildlings. He’s done it all before. And what was the point of having Sansa say this to Jon if he was just going to follow the same mistakes that Ned made and subsequently that Robb made by taking up with a ‘foreign whore’ (sidenote: I hate the word ‘whore’ but I’m quoting here as it’s something Lord Glover said):

"You have to be smarter than Father. You need to be smarter than Robb. I loved them, I miss them, but they made stupid mistakes, and they both lost their heads for it.”

It would be completely pointless if after 7 seasons of character development and plot progression for Jon to be exactly like Ned and do the exact same thing as Robb and get away with it while the other two both lost their heads for it. Now I love Jon and I love his character, but if this is his trajectory, if he comes up on top, especially now it’s revealed he’s not even a bastard, that he’s the trueborn heir to the Iron Throne, then Jon Snow is starting to look a lot like Gary Stue.

I want to believe otherwise. After all, I still have faith that D&D is leading us to the same conclusion as GRRM and he would no way want a fairytale ending for his complex and all morally grey characters. And that faith also led me to pick up on this exchange Jon has with Theon:

“....It’s always the right step.”

“It’s not. It may seem that way from the outside. I promise you it’s not true. I’ve done plenty of things I regret.”

So it may seem like Jon is betraying the North for Dani and his trust/love in her, but it’s not true. That’s what I took from it and what I will continue to take from this episode because I still have faith in Jon Snow. Before any anti’s come screaming at me about how I’m reaching for the sake of my ship, stop right there. I would rather Jon and Sansa end up platonic than let D&D ruin the characterisation of Jon or Sansa. Before I was a Jonsa shipper, I was a shipper of complex characters and decent sensical development, so you can leave your hate right where it is.

Moving on again, can we please talk about Lena Heady? Can we please just stand up and give a rousing applause for Cersei ‘Badass Bitch’ Lannister? And Peter Dinklage too. That entire scene between them was so great. I’ve always really liked them together. But let’s talk about this a little. The entire conversation is dancing around their grief over Myrcella and Tommen and Cersei’s anger at Tyrion for ‘ruining’ their family, but then it ends with Tyrion realising she’s pregnant. The look he has on his face is a little like horror. At first, I thought that maybe the horror comes from the knowledge it’s another Twincest baby or that Cersei is procreating again and will it be a Joffrey or a Myrcella/Tommen? But now that I think about it, I think it’s more about the fact that Cersei will have an heir. Westerosi politics is built on these houses being able to produce heirs to carry on legacies and continuing ruling after their parents are long gone. It’s how they create stability. When there is no one true heir or no heir at all, there’s a power vacuum that causes civil wars (Dance of Dragons) and other such chaos. If Cersei has an heir but Dani doesn’t, who will the people want on the throne? At this point, Dani isn’t seen as a much better option than Cersei. She’s probably seen as a worse option since she’s a conqueror, or rather specifically, she’s Aegon the Conqueror come again.

So let’s fast forward to the much-anticipated boatbang of the century, which was... anticlimactic. But that’s not what I want to discuss (yet). I want to talk about Tyrion standing outside the room, looking on with a strange expression on his face. Some people have suggested he’s jealous, but why would he be jealous if he’s the one that suggested to Dani that Jon is in love with her? Maybe he is, but it’s a weird way to show his jealousy. He actually steps out from the shadows and then stands there for a long time. Has he been spying on Jon or did he come walk over after the door’s closed because he already knows what’s going on? Besides, I feel like he looks more concerned than jealous, like something’s eating him up about it. Someone suggested that maybe Tyrion urged Jon to go to Dani. I wouldn’t say Tyrion explicitly said ‘go bang her’ or anything like that but maybe he implicitly suggested it because Tyrion has been rightfully concerned this season about Dani and the line of succession. If she can produce an heir, it would solidify her claim to the Iron Throne. Without one and being actually barren would make her less of a viable choice. Of course, this feels very tinfoil. It’s just bizarre for Tyrion to stand there looking so ominous. In fact, this entire scene was bizarre.

I mean let’s really look at it. Not only is the boatbang scene being shot after a scene of Rhaegar and Lyanna marrying and supposedly being in love, but in between is also a shot of Lyanna dying while whispering Jon’s true name, ‘Aegon Targaryen’, and Bran’s voiceover saying he’s the trueborn heir to the Iron Throne. If that isn’t foreboding, I don’t know what is. You can hardly show an epic romance between two characters when you’re also cutting away to the romance of one character’s parents, which also confirms that said two characters are aunt and nephew. Nor can you have an epic romance scene when it’s being voiced over by one character’s brother-turned-cousin. That’s weird, especially when you go back to 7x02 when Missandei and Grey Worm had their long-awaited sex scene. The focus was entirely on them for several minutes as they undressed and took each other in. That entire scene was 4+ minutes dedicated to them, whereas Jon and Dani had about 15 or so seconds altogether and this is the supposed ‘epic romance’ of the entire story. This is the anticipated sexual tryst between two main characters, whereas Missandei and Grey Worm are secondary characters at best. It’s underwhelming. There wasn’t even a buildup to the sex or a closeup shot of their first kiss. It was just ‘wham, bam, thank you, ma’am’. And then you factor in the scene before Jon knocks on the door. He stands there for some time like he’s steeling himself to do it. He doesn’t look nervous, not in the way one would be before going to bang someone he apparently loves. It’s just odd and frankly, rather ominous.

Anyway, let’s head to Winterfell for literally the best part of the entire episode. I honestly don’t have much to say about it. I just really loved the fact that Sansa and Arya were playing Littlefinger. I still hated that they had to butcher Arya like that to get this across, but the bond between the sisters seem stronger than ever and their final scene together was beautiful.

But honestly, how loud did everyone scream at this part:

“You stand accused of murder. You stand accused of treason. How do you answer these charges, Lord Baelish?”

“My sister asked you a question.”

It was poetic to have Petyr die at the hands of his own dagger and in a similar way to how Cat, his supposed beloved, died too. It’s perfect. Goodbye Creepyfinger, we won’t miss you!

But before we say goodbye completely, Creepyfinger did give us a little Jonsa nugget if you were paying attention. When Sansa receives the letter from Jon that he bent the knee to Dani, LF says this:

“I heard gossip that the Dragon Queen is quite beautiful.”

“What does that have to do with anything?”

“Jon is young and unmarried. [Dani] is young and unmarried.”

“You think he wants to marry her?”

“I think an alliance makes sense. Together, they’d be difficult to defeat.”

I know he’s trying to manipulate Sansa into betraying her family and taking the North for herself, so he could marry her and gain power, but commenting on Dani’s beauty seems a strange thing to add. He could just say Jon is young and unmarried and so is she, an alliance would good. But he starts with commenting on her beauty. He already goaded Jon earlier this season, figuring out his feelings for Sansa, and now he’s goading Sansa, who seems shocked and confused by it, only to deflect and bring the topic back to Arya. Perhaps it’s shipping goggles, but it’s an interesting add-on to the conversation.

Back to King’s Landing though, Jaime and Cersei just had their massive, inevitable fallout and last we see is Jaime riding off on his own. Now, where would our conflicted little lion be heading? The North to Winterfell, right? And I wonder where a certain blonde-haired angel is going? Same place. Oh my, look how that worked for Braime <3 Sorry lol. I’m just very happy for the possibility of Braime and also very interested to see Jaime interacting with Sansa, which I hope he does. If/when Sansa becomes Queen of the North, I need Jaime to swear his fealty to her over Pyroqueen. Please.

Final thoughts:

The Night King is still the badass he is with this badass new child, Viserion, who is finally getting the recognition he deserves. All hail the Night King!

But only if Tormund doesn’t die. I swear to Lucifer if Tormund dies, I’ll kill the Night King myself.

Also, Sam is at Winterfell!!! Please give me a Sam x Sansa friendship!!!! And his scene with Bran was hilarious. I don’t know why, but I just found it really funny.

What did you guys think?

#jonsa #jon x sansa #jon snow #sansa stark #anti-jonerys #anti-daenerys #tyrion lannister #cersei lannister #braime #jaime lannister #arya stark #littlefinger has died!#got s7 #got s7 finale #game of thrones #spoilers #got s7 thoughts #anti jonerys

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