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toxicsamruby · 3 years

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1/7 MM okay gotcha gotcha. I was thinking about this on a smaller scale, where i don't think discussing racism in supernatural should be "fun and interesting" (phrase you used in your original post that rubbed me the wrong way b/c [hot take] I don't think racist tropes reminiscent of the Birth of a Nation and the policing of poor black communities are fun and interesting. they're horrible. but, like you said, we shouldn't shy away from horrible things), but no yeah i get what you're saying about

2/7 people showing the same enthusiasm, willing participation, and depth when talking about this stuff as w/gender&sexuality. I agree with that AND it's important to keep in mind, especially with a fanbase that's largely white, whom these analyses are for and who is writing them (b/c a white person's racial reading isn't the same as a bipoc's). But, again, that's on the smaller scale, which appears to have more to do with personal accountability and discussion norms.

3/7 AND i also get what you're saying about using the entirety of supernatural to examine "american attitudes about the Other" and how that needs to be broken down in ethnic/racial/culture identities just as it is with queer indentities and yes i agree. as for the marketing/monetary engagement thing, i may have been speaking out of turn there because i don't know a ton about marketing or audience appeal and i also wasn't invested in all the spn meta/BTS stuff until recently.

4/7 what I said was purely my observations of the very specific 'spn renaissance' tumblr circle, which appeared different from the, say, twitter circles that pay for merch and whatnot (again, this may not be accurate, it's just from what i've seen). HOWEVER, that being said, if we're speaking specifically about the long-term, /larger/ cultural impact supernatural has, I 100% agree that it needs to be recognized and condemned as a racist and all-around patriarchal show. I did forget that spn made

5/7 so many headlines about both queerbaiting and having a queer character or whatever, and the same headlines need to be made about how it treats bipoc and other minorities. Although supernatural is a mess and considered cringey and a dead horse, it still holds a significant amount of power and (at least some) reputability in media. and this is all despite its misogyny and homophobia and cisheteronormativity (this is the case for so many shows, not just spn). I guess i was just concerned about

6/7 'ok, what if mainstream starts having these conversations about racism very specifically in a way that normalizes it and makes it seem hatecrime-but we'll-allow-it,' so now we have this monster of a show that KNOWS it's racist but doesn't really care. But it's equally as terrible to not point it out. But it doesn't matter anyways, because the show is over now, and it's not like they're gonna give reparations to the actors they killed and the people they hurt. your point about us having these

7/7 conversations (in a way that does not make it seem like like fun ideas to ponder over) being the only thing we CAN do to lessen the power the White Narrative of Supernatural (both meta and in-text) really resonates, and i hadn't thought of that but i totally agree. in other words lmao, fuck this show

yeah “fun” might’ve been the wrong word choice for all the reasons u gave i really didn’t mean to trivialize racism as a discussion and i see what u mean especially w how people have responded to the homophobia of supernatural me included like saying oh its homophobic but its funny so it’s fine and ur absolutely right that we Cant allow the discussion of race to go the same way (and honestly ur intuition was right bc in the tags of that post theres white people saying we SHOULD take it as lightly as the homophobia). so yeah the phrasing was my bad

but my general point stands. like i personally find it really fulfilling and interesting to talk abt how supernatural (and other fiction) replicates these american ideas about the Other bc supernatural is a FASCINATING microcosm of american culture (and of course in part bc i Am an american other)! and that post was mostly in response to how white fans seem to shy away from these extremely complex and interesting conversations bc they consider discussion of racism a chore like something they Have to do so they can say “it was bad that they killed off kevin tran. see i engaged critically! now back to the meta that relates to Me and My experiences”

and of course the analysis that becomes generally accepted and talked abt by fans shapes the actual presence of the show in pop culture. so we should do our best to write good and thoughtful and compassionate analysis of EVERY aspect of the text, especially one so deeply embedded as the race element.

basically yeah ur right and i think we pretty much agree. fuck this show! thank you for sending me these messages by the way im glad we could talk this out :)

#i think this might actually be the most productive conversation ive ever had abt a piece of fiction lmfao #asks #crit

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eisforeidolon · 3 years

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i am the Spanish anon again and yeah you’re SO right. that actually made me feel better. i literally grew up watching spn so having the ending... ruined for me and my family, i guess, really sucked. but also i disagree that it isn’t explicitly romantic. I think it was undeniably romantic and that just makes it worse.

Like I keep thinking ‘M*sha had to be involved in this decision’. it just reeks of him and his clout chasing lmao. Like... they did use the word for brother but it was used in a more nicknamey way? I’d watch it right now to see the exact phrasing because it was probably the sentence structure, but i don’t wanna see it again until i get there in rewatching with my friend.

I don’t know man it just genuinely upsets me because this show was very important to me growing up? the relationship between the family and stuff, the confession from 15.18 changes just the entire context of the show and then the Spanish dub makes hellers correct. i hate to give them credit but it makes their analysis and crackpot theories correct :(

the scene with Sam and Dean was thank god more emotionally touching than the Cass confession. i dont ship wincest at all (no hate to people who do!) but it makes sense to use te amo for siblings in that scenario because... like normally you’d use te quiero but amo is used in very emotional scenarios like weddings, deathbeds. i have said ‘te amo’ to family members who were very sick or dying in any other situation i would say te quiero

this just makes Cass so much worse. they COULD have had him say something like ‘te quiero mucho, lo siento y gracias por tu carino’. that would make perfect sense and be just as emotionally touching as the original scene. the way the confession is said and structured it just... i don’t know it’s awful. they CHOSE not to use ‘quiero’ they chose to erase the relationship between the brothers in favor of some fetish ship.

I saw another post saying they couldn’t use the platonic love because it would translate to Spanish audiences as “I care about you.” I really appreciate everyone trying to explain the Spanish dub but I’ve seen that explanation multiple times and it just... really takes away the fault from the hellers and M*sha himself. because ‘te quiero’ was like a neon sign flashing in the background it was the ONLY phrasing that would have made sense but the freaks gaslighted everyone into deciding otherwise.

This is so long I’m sorry 😭. it just pisses me off. normally i let people ship whatever they want but with destihellers, they screamed to everyone about their ship and now Hispanic watchers will think dean was ‘in love’ with Cass. again ruining the integrity of the show ESPECIALLY for non Americans!!!

SORRY, last anon again. I forgot to mention your explanation of why dean would reply “and i you” makes PERFECT sense. i will use that as an explanation from now on, its the best way to at least try to explain away and minimize the stupid confession

**********

I'm sorry that you feel like it was ruined for you.

In English, it feels so intentionally ambiguous because Cas says "I love you" and not "I am in love with you". It would be very easy to include that one word and remove all ambiguity in what he meant and yet Berens chose not to, trying to win over the hellers - but not piss off the other side too bad. I honestly cannot speak as to what the implications of the scene as a whole are and the nuances in Spanish. (I'll address the script conspiracies stuff in another response since this is so long already.)

At the end of the day, I absolutely believe Berens and Misha pandered to the hellers on purpose and that does annoy me, because heller theories were stupid and they were assholes for years so rewarding them for twitter follows and shelling cheap merch kinda disgusts me. Misha lies like a rug, so it's hard to know to what extent it's true - but he did say that not only did he pitch the idea of Cas declaring love for Dean and dying, he suggested he actively went behind Jensen's back to pitch it in secret to Berens months in advance.

However I also gave up on Castiel being a decent character years ago, and at the very most, the scene is a one sided declaration of romantic love that Dean doesn't reciprocate. So it doesn't bug me nearly so much as it does people who were still fans of canon Castiel and hate how it ruins every single bit of his learning to understand free will and caring about the world - you know actual character development - to make it all about stalking Dean.

#destihellers #destiew #long post #askboxery #anonymous

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incarnateirony · 4 years

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Re: Ratings etc;

I saw questions crop up in regards to some TV Grim Reaper stuff.

A while back people may remember me posting about CBS and WB breaking their former legendary agreement with Netflix (x) -- and I don’t think the ramifications of that really set in on viewing eyes.

It isn’t coincidence that as quickly as has happened, Charmed has been moved to the Friday Death Slot. Previously, CBS-WB’s partner agreement with Netflix was a prime operation of Pedowitz’s CW. For reasons that ultimately boil down to merchandising tantrums by CBS, the two broke their partner agreement. This means that no longer do CBS properties (Charmed, Dynasty) that are god awful and failing have a default signed promise to get their properties onto Netflix, but they have to actually negotiate and shop products independently. This agreement used to have CBS, essentially as a parent company, slog a whole bunch of shitty products onto the CW to make use of the CW agreement, which put a smokescreen that let CBS properties run considerably lower in ratings before cancellation (SEE: CHARMED, AGAIN, or yes, Dynasty, notice BOTH OF THESE ARE MOVED TO FRIDAY NOW).

This also had direct impact on things like available TV dev space for Wayward (Eg: Moonves was a CBS exec and honestly the origin of the statement about not giving a shit that Dynasty ran shit poor ratings because CBS got to run with 100% of the digital profit promised to them).

(If Moonves sounds familiar, you may remember my original “reasons behind Wayward being cut last second” commentary which was, ironically, confirmed by Kim & Bri at a M&G a few weeks later by chance. When they mentioned Moonves a bunch of people probably had no idea what that meant; yes, the same Moonves that MeToo trended and is now no longer with CBS -- just to put icing on the shitcake. Like Deadass if he had MeToo trended half a year earlier we might be in a slightly less shitty AU where Wayward was airing.)

In regards to Grim’s token bitter and dismissive attitude that’s a bit of an online character, I think the biggest point to remember is that Grim outright slated SPN for “obvious renewal” last year (x) and even openly mocked the idea that ratings for it ever stumbled, and is instead reacting purely to the unpredicted final season announcement based on rule of thumb, rather than awareness of exceptions. TV Grim Reaper does not follow the production teams, or even the shows they talk about, and instead observe ratings patterns. Live ratings patterns indicated perpetual renewal, but since then Grim has struggled to identify why a show still powering onward would cancel.

Generally, if a TV show is popular the network will find some way to rotate cast etc (OUAT), but there are landmark shows where that simply doesn’t *work*. The precedent for this was set by Seinfeld which, while still being a TV leader back in its day cancelled, they knew better than to try to replace Kramer, George, Elaine, and--well, Seinfeld on Seinfeld when they decided to hang up their hats after a bajillion years.

The presumption that it must have been *failing quietly, digitally* is a fair one from the outside but not with observation of the last several years of production, most notably back end since early-mid S13 (about a month or two pre-Paley, or around when I stopped openly speccing the ending and stopped talking about demos/ratings, to date this if Paley seems intangible in historyscape). The only substantiative grounds for this is something that plagues literally the entire network, that being that the CW’s general marketing has been struggling for ad space value for years, but that affects shows A-Z in the end and the show remained a growing digital leader. This says nothing for it being one of CW/WB’s digital leaders in the likes of Game of Thrones and Walking Dead category, which mostly their DC properties (The Flash, etc) get the honor of but there’s SPN chugging along as a worldwide digital leader. (16-19, improving the last few years, I haven’t found S14′s numbers because I haven’t cared about tracking this for *reasons* since S13, but 11-13 in the very least)

The simple fact is: Everybody’s tired, the CW continues to be stupid (although at this point it’s more CBS’ fault but they catch the surface level impact of the Dumbz) and it was time to wrap.

I somehow doubt Netflix will decline to take on SPN again, considering its streaming power, but that says nothing about all the other shows CBS/WB want to make Netflix choke down without any merch rights. Or if these WB streaming platforms they’ve been trying to get off the ground will end up taking SPN unto itself and leave Netflix actually having to pursue it.

Though at the snails’ pace WB is figuring this out, failing DC platform included, it’s probably safe with Netflix for a few years until it stops being actively profitable enough to care. By the time WB gets a damn viable proprietary app together Netflix might not give a shit lmao

CW is designed to be a digital leader, WB is not and CBS knows how to market to baby boomers and that’s about it, so for now CW is trying to keep its center, which is probably why there’s been so much virtue signal marketing (done very badly) since the announcement.

The digital curve is the future of television and *why* live ratings are at rock bottom across the board. To understand the worth of digital weight in modern television please click this (x) but best summed up with “According to eMarketer, 55.1 million people will no longer watch traditional pay TV by 2022“

Of the 119.9m homes and 305.4m people in Nielsen’s estimated TV universe as of 2019, we’re talking losing 1/6th of classic TV viewers in the next year and in the same stretch, almost half of homes. And I hate to put it like this, these data points rarely take into account that some of the demo is old people dying, which ultimately accelerates the growth path and why every year some shit like this is “exceeding expectations.”

What was once CW’s strength has been cut out from under it which is why CW is trying SO HARD to define themselves right now instead of standard fare marketing that the last however-long was. You wanna know why the last like year or two are all dArE tO dEfYYYY rainbow flag of all of our straight leaaaaaaaaads it’s because CW is desperately trying to chisel out a network image now that their entire bankrolling system is fucked.

If SPN’s long-planned end point has to do with anything advert/money/marketing-wise, it’s that it’s going to be harder to bankroll under new methods than, say, DC properties, Because DC, for the level of operative costs; it’s less about SPN’s success and more about the network’s shortcomings and pitfalls all under a shiny new marketing mask. The fact that it’s season 15 and everybody’s #tired is a pretty major culprit too though. The incentive to keep finding ways to *make it work* just diminishes and you want it to finish strong.

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justanearth-boundmisfit · 5 years

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destielette1 replied to your post “It's fucking hilarious how you don't even have to give a hint...”

I sent the comment too fast anyway i was saying that the show and the fandom are agonizing, that’s a fact , I don’t think they can save it now , not with these writers , and not with the main reasons that made the show go to its 15th (no matter what the incest shippers say) are being treated like shit and literally killed, and I’m talking about both Cas and destiel.

We lost so many good people , so many excellent meta writers , like awed frog for example, people are fed up, thousands Shippers get fed up of their queer baiting and left the show, and it shows in the ratings. And the way the show been pandering to incest Shippers lately made things even uglier , I will always cherish Cas and Destiel no matter what , but I will not keep a good memory of Spn. I always said that a show success doesn’t lie in its longevity but in its ending ,

The shows that end badly are quickly forgotten , the main actors of these show often pay for the writers errors and they rarely find other significative roles again, just look at the actors of lost, this getting really long , I needed to someone who is not an hypocrite , thank you for trying to stay honest and don’t ever change , love you 🌹

I hope you don’t mind I put all your comments together because I think they are on point. And coming from you, and how much I know you love Destiel and Cas are incredible important right now.

Under the cut the rest because it got long... as usual...

I agree almost completely in all that you say. And I say almost because I think when spn ends is not going to be forgotten or forgiven. It’s going to stay in the history of queerbaiting tv forever. It’s already happening even before the show ends, the only thing that maintains it like you say, it’s destiel and Cas, and I’m saying this not as a shipper or a Cas’ fan, it’s simple facts. We don’t have to search too hard for these facts either, destiel has been on lists with otps and canon ships on major sites for quite a while now, everybody knows that making a list with deancas is surely going to get thousands of clicks, the polls always have them for the same reason. The amount of fics, art, codas, metas, articles about them is incredible. And we are talking about a ship that is not canon, and that Dabb made sure to kill it dead. Imagine if things were different, just imagine.

That’s why I say that spn is going to go infamous in that respect, is going to be up there with Sherlock, and the meltdown johnlock created is going to pale with the one we are going to have with spn. It’s going to be hard af to watch and I have been saying “please don’t listen or read meta bs that is is lying to you because is not healthy” like a parrot, because I KNOW some people are going to get hurt so so much.

I’m glad that I can finally started to distance myself a little from the show and from the ship, it’s really liberating not to be so down or angry all the time. Or just waiting for my 3 minutes of Cas every now and then just to be disappointed again, I’m not letting tptb do that to me ever again. And yeah it’s fiction, but fiction can hurt you too, can turn into an obsession, and that’s what happened with spn on so many levels... Tptb play with that constantly, and worst of all they know VERY WELL what they are doing. Metas like to talk about how “everything is so well crafted in the writer’s room!” and that “everything has a reason to be” yeah the reason is to keep fans watching, buying merch, going to cons, and spending money. Sorry not sorry, but spn at this point is so clearly just all about the money tptb can get out of fandom.

What is sad af, it’s the lost potential, spn could’ve been incredible, not only if destiel went canon, but if the writing wasn’t so shitty, repetitive and boring. Also metas likes to point out how “season 14 is all about characterization” lmao! If the 300th ep proved something is that they dgaf about characterization! They brought back John with a storyline that didn’t make sense AT ALL, it was pure fan service. They also like to point out how much the bros have expanded their family and “it’s not about only them anymore”. But again, the 300th proved them wrong, it’s all about blood family, it’s all about the bros (and I totally agree with you that we have so many wincest winks lately wtf). I have talked so many times why this is not going to change, that I feel the deja vu running through my veins. They have a formula, a formula that gave them 15 seasons, they are not going to change it, even if the ratings are down, they are stuck with their bs. Dabb’s era is the worst that I have seen, and I’m not afraid to say it. Even when I hated Gamble for so long, at least we had great eps now and then. But these last three years oh gods, they are so bad! They totally destroyed Cas and Dean, and deancas, and the myth arcs and lore were non-existent to them. Continuity? What’s that? And don’t make me talk about their obsession with abusive white males that they keep bringing back or giving a redemption arc too (ketch, john, nick/lucifer to name a few).

Ugh... there’s so much more to REALLY analyze about spn, instead of writing about parallels and the light, and the wardrobe. But alas, I’m no meta, and I’m really tired of all their bs. What I feel the most is the lost of great bloggers, friends and fans, I terribly missed them. Nowadays we have to go around social media, esp twitter, being really careful about what you say, otherwise the horde of positivity police will bury you shouting “you’re a casonly! you’re bitter and that is as bad as being a bronly! you’re the dark side of the fandom!” And that’s why metas and their positivity policing are also responsible for destroying fandom. It shows in the amount of blogs that are deleted or changed by fans, it shows in the mess that fanfiction is right now, it shows in the wars that we have and how much the fandom is divided. We have to thank them for that imo, I have seen them in action, I have experienced their policing. But idgaf about what they say about me or my little blog. I’m not shutting up, they can all go fuck themselves because I’m not forgiving or forgetting how much they clapped when tptb killed Cas in season 12. And they call US the dark side of the fandom? Lmao!

Sorry it go this long. But I’m venting and ranting, well you know me at this point. And I want to really thank you for your last words, because I know that we have different opinions on certain matters but you always showed me so much respect... I really appreciate it like you have no idea, because it shows me that we can all exchange opinions or think different but also we can be decent with each other. For me you’re one of the greatest in this fandom. I have to thank spn, despite everything, that I could meet people like you. All the hugs, and love you too.

#destielette1 #rant #vent #rant of rants #replies #ranty replies #opinions #don't like don't read #anti spn #just in case #destiel for ts #just in case too #anti metas bullshit #dirt for ts

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