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jakowskis · 9 days

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Day 21 - Discuss Gwen. Opinions? Favorite moment? Least favorite moment? Any unpopular opinions? Any fun headcanons?

gwen!!! i love gwen. i think she’s fascinating. she’s normal - she’s fucked up. she’s empathetic - she detaches from the people closest to her. she loves rhys - she loves jack. she knew torchwood was toxic - she joined anyway. she’s just a really fleshed out, grounded character, akin to some of the doctor who companions imo, but because it’s torchwood she gets to be a little more of a straight up asshole - i love it. i think she’s a brilliant character. and she’s also adorable and funny and badass and gorgeous and sweet and lovely and a little bit deranged. i adore her.

my fav gwen moment would have to be when she retconned rhys in combat 😭 HEAR ME OUT. that’s the moment i was like ‘oh holy shit she’s fucked up’ and that made me feel compelled by her... she’s since become my second fav character and i think if that scene didn’t exist she wouldn’t have reached that point for me. esp because it established her as a certain type of fucked up, you know? her cheating on rhys wasn’t nice, but it was interesting. i think her struggles with emotional faithfulness and how easily she was pushed into sexual infidelity from stress and isolation make her interesting. her and owen are psychological marvels to me, in the best way fshdfkjds they’re both really fascinating characters with really interesting and, bafflingly, well-done trauma responses. listen, i like rhys a lot, and i pity him, but my main issue with that plot is less that she did it in the first place and more that that plotline was never given closure. i don't rlly have much interest in condemning cheating as it exists in fiction, it's just a plot device to me so it doesn't register as particularly immoral when done by characters (as in, it doesnt make ME hate them; i know some people think it's a Grave Sin) - but i do think rhys did deserve better than never being offered transparency in that regard. but i don’t blame gwen herself for that, so much as i blame the writers.

and then aside from that, i have several fav gwen-being-cute moments, because she’s like a fluffy little creature to me fhsdkj there’s something about eve’s tooth gap i think and the way they do her hair, and those big ol’ eyes…. i want to keep her in my pocket. i love the handful of times her and owen goof off, i love her crying pizza scene, i love the scenes where she’s being playful with rhys, i love her reactions when she's talking to emma about sex in out of time (eve’s comedic acting is so funny too btw like some of the faces gwen makes at shit kills me. shes just so tangible she looks and feels like a real person you’d be friends w like thts gwen my friend gwen)... i love the way she bonds with female characters, idk why that was something that really stood out to me like she way she bonds with other women, i love it. with jonah’s mom and with beth... in an era where women were pitted against each other a lot (we see it happen w her n tosh in, like, countrycide a little), it's nice they subverted that. i love when women take care of each other. nice little thing to include in tw of all shows.

my least favorite gwen moment… i can’t really think of one of the top of my head? OH i know. the way she treats andy in adrift bothered me a bit. i think the concept of ‘torchwood’s changed you, you’re crueler now’ is brilliant, but it’s a little more personal between them, and she's unnecessarily a bit condescending w him, so it rubbed me a little wrong. but torchwood in s1 were meant to be cocky so ig maybe that could've rubbed off on her too... but the show doesn't suggest that so eh.

i don’t think i have any unpopular opinions, other than i think she’s a great character + she’s very likeable and compelling, and i think gwen bashers are misogynistic morons ❤️ oh also! i think she’s just as bisexual as the other three, she’s just not as tapped into her attraction to women. gwen to me is a “when i was a kid i used to stare at my best friend and think about how pretty she was… but that’s normal right i mean thats just loving your friend right. feeling warm when you brush her hair at a slumber party is normal right” type of wlw fsdkjfd. i think she emotionally latches onto women (like i said we see this happen in the show) but she’s just gone through life assuming she’s straight so she never clocked herself as having the capacity for that emotional attachment to be something romantic instead. not unlike pre-gbg tosh.

fun headcanons… her and owen are besties. this is canon as far as im concerned but i’d like it to be even More. they just sort of have a surprisingly easy rapport, like they enjoy each other's company (somewhat surprisingly, given their contrasting personalities) and are weirdly in sync esp in s2, but they also poke and prod at each other. they have a shiv & roman from succession relationship to me - “hey slut” “hey f-g” HFSDKJFHDKJ do you see. do u see my vision. (not the sibling shit obviously just That Vibe.) i love writing them bantering back n forth, it's tons of fun. also lowkey projecting shit from the actors onto them - eve used to just straight up wrestle burn and that feels like a gwen owen activity i think she should pick him up and slam dunk him into the ground. theyre boygirlbesties to me i think they should go shopping together and try shit on and insult each other. i think they should go to more movies n sit in the back n whisper back n forth. i also think gwen and tosh should be closer as well im sending them on a spa trip. girl’s night! oh speaking of girl’s night ive also had this fic in development for a while about owen playing with gender (i think he needs that i think it’d heal him) + it has two separate scenes where gwen puts makeup on him cuz i think they should recreate that lesbian makeup image. thats their relationship to me. i also think she should peg him platonically. do u kinda see the vibe im going for here. speaking of pegging… shit that needs to be introduced into her relationship w rhys. female characters who i’d fix by buying them a strap-on. also she needs to have gay sex it’s crucial. ok ill shut up now. idk if i have any other non-cursed hcs HKSDF sorry im evil xD ill show myself out. gwen cooper they could never make me hate you i love you mwah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

#tdot #txt #some ppl think shes not the heart of the show... thats my wife so shut the fuck up #she is but she's the fucked up heart which is the best part!!! why would torchwood's beating heart be normal. it's torchwood #also i didnt know where to put this but gwen's become my comedic relief character when i write... she just brings a vibe like #she's decisive but also she's enough of a goof and a people person that she's able to bring the tension down in the room #in the show she's more prone to getting stressed too but there's moments where she's silly i like leaning into that #and NOT in a jack way btw jack does it in an infuriating way #shes just my silly i luv her sense of humor

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hyena-frog · 4 years

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I personally don't understand people who think that Virginia 'can't win on her own'. As if she has to prove herself or she is 'too nice' and has to learn 'how to violence'. Just because Sevro's solution for everything is cutting some fingers or worse, doesn't mean he is always right or that Mustang's work to keep that balance and play within the designated lines is not badass or interesting. She is the only demokratic ruler and her own people gave her absolute power of decision making to end the war at any cost. What's not great about that!?

If Virginia was indeed 'too nice', she would have perished long ago - last absolute cinnamon roll we saw was Julian and we all know what Society thinks about people like him. Just because she plays by the rules, doesn't mean she has no claws - she wiped a terrorist's memories away for fuck's sake. Now that the rules have been extended, you can bet your ass that she'll take more than one page out of Nero's playbook. After all, she said it herself, she tamed herself, but it's fun to let the lion out.

Agreed 110%! I don't understand people who give Virginia shit in general tbh. I mean, how do you not fall in love with her immediately? How are you not ride or die for her from the get-go? It boggles the mind.

Those arguments, being "too nice" or being unable to win on her own, are reaching and easily debunkable. The lack of reading comprehension. 😒 If you don't like her, then whatever. I may not understand how that’s possible, but it really isn’t necessary to make shit up, you know?

Virginia can't win on her own, huh. The nerve! Where would Darrow be without her? Dead. Many times over. He would have bled out after Cassius stabbed him if Virginia hadn't helped him. And it was Virginia who brought the Howlers back from the Rim weeks in advance of Darrow actually needing them, just in case. So many things would have gone wrong in Morning Star if she wasn't at Darrow's side (and if Ragnar hadn't gone out of his way to make sure she'd be there, the absolute legend).

Perhaps it's Darrow who can't win on his own? But that sounds ridiculous, doesn't it? All of his successes were achieved through teamwork. Darrow acknowledges this many times. It's the same for Virginia. While it's simply not true that she can't win on her own, it’s also untrue that the inability to win on your own is a bad thing. The whole argument doesn’t make any sense.

The idea Virginia still needs to “prove” herself despite doing so plenty of times already throughout the series is frustrating. The fact of the matter is, the success of the Rising relies just as heavily on Virginia's intelligence as it does Darrow's battle skills. The Solar Republic simply wouldn't exist without her. Fitchner never had a clear vision of what "after the Society" would look like and neither did Darrow for a long time. The war effort needs a conscience and a vision for the future, otherwise it's just endless bloodshed. Virginia helps Darrow see beyond the bloodshed. Plus, Darrow has no interest in politics. He'd be the first to admit he’s not good at the slow game of political maneuvering. But Virginia thrives in that environment. In Dark Age, Darrow even admits his current predicament is a consequence of not trusting his wife's way of running the Republic, and he vows never to do that again.

Sure, Virginia doesn't get into physical fights often, especially now that she is Sovereign. But politics is no less perilous a battlefield. I feel like because the political battlefield isn't as flashy and fast paced as a literal one, people forget the constant danger she is in, even before the Senate's betrayal. Silenius' Stiletto is a delicate tightrope act she has to perform every day to drag progress forward while keeping her opponents in check. This requires a level of self-restraint, clear-headedness, and badassery, that no other character can achieve.

Virginia is not "too nice." She is practical. And often, is it practical to play nice. Not every confrontation is best solved through violence Sevro. We all know the line: Virginia is the mustang that nuzzles the hand; people know they can work with her. That’s why the people chose her consistently for ten years, over literally everyone else in the solar system, to run this new government. And her steadfast resolve to gain Imperium legally, to not force her will on the people, proved to them again that she won’t abuse this ultimate power to end the war.

No, Virginia may be reasonable but that doesn't mean she is too nice. If she was too nice, she wouldn't have used her relationship with Cassius to protect her family. She wouldn't have shot Cassius in the throat with an arrow. She wouldn't have promised Ephraim he would "die shitting in a foreign bed" if he skipped about on their bargain to return the kids. She wouldn't have zapped the Duke of Hands' entire personality from his head. Like you said, she never would have made it this far if she was truly toothless. She's practical, and sometimes the practical solution doesn't require violence, but creative thinking.

Speaking of creative thinking, one thing Virginia doesn’t get nearly enough credit for is abolishing the death penalty immediately after Adrius was hanged. That wasn't her being "too nice" or too lenient on her caste. Yes, she feels life in prison is the moral option over the death penalty. But she knows her people. The punishment for the worst criminals in Deepgrave is a Gold's worst nightmare. Life in prison denies a Gold their desire for a glorious death, to be remembered through the ages for their deeds in battle. The Republic's justice system sends a clear message: "Mess with us, and you won't get your notoriety or fame, you'll only get obscurity and shame and sucking algae through a tube until you die naturally of old age." That to me is crueler than hanging.

Virginia’s mind is her greatest weapon, but more than that, her greatest strength is how she applies her intelligence. Her ability to read people, and to communicate, is greatly underappreciated imo. These skills require nonviolent interaction yet they yield great results. There are many examples of this. She used her natural charisma to gain Octavia's trust. She brokered an alliance with the Rim when she thought Darrow was dead. She held the Republic together for ten years despite constant, increasing animosity from the Vox. She refused to torture Lyria and was able to see she was not lying about being an unwitting pawn in the kidnapping scheme and was rewarded with information and a new ally. She figured out exactly what Sefi was planning for Cimmeria, even manipulating the situation to her advantage without Sefi realizing it. She knew Victra was going to bargain with Sefi for the kids, without being told. In her own words, this is simply what she does.

There is a quote in Iron Gold that caught my eye: "Communication is the soul of civilization." (532) Now, this line has nothing directly to do with Virginia. This is Ephraim trying to get a rise out of Gorgo. But it fits Virginia perfectly, doesn’t it? The Republic is able to exist as a civilization because it has such an amazing communicator at its center.

Virginia is such an excellent communicator that she is even able to get parties who refuse to communicate with her initially to reciprocate communication eventually. She convinces Sevro, Dancer, and even Victra to stop freezing her out and work together. She does this by speaking their "language." She knows exactly what to say or what to do to get them to finally listen to her. Revealing she already knows exactly what is going on works for Sevro, providing hard evidence of conspiracy works for Dancer, and proving her actions (showing her scars) works for Victra. This isn't to say she never makes mistakes. She shouldn't have called the Wardens on Darrow, for example, just as Darrow shouldn't have kept the meeting with the Society "diplomats" a secret from her and the Senate. But more often than not, her nonviolent communication skills yield valuable results.

As for Virginia apparently needing to learn how to use violence… While Victra and Sevro’s feelings were justified, their actions at the end of Iron Gold and the beginning of Dark Age were just wrong, wrong, wrong imo. Freezing out Virginia did nothing but delay the return of the kids. It's frustrating to think how much heartbreak could have been avoided if they'd just put their heads together from the moment the kids disappeared. And what exactly did Sevro's rampage through Luna's underground accomplish? Some dead Syndicate thorns, sure. But that tantrum put a huge target on Sevro's back. As Virginia said, one lucky sniper and boom, no more Sevro. What would Victra have done then?

While it may feel like Virginia would have achieved more if she just beheaded some people, she has a responsibility as Sovereign to consider the bigger picture. She has to consider the Stiletto. If the Vox saw her offing some fools it would have added credibility to their smear campaign. The people would have lost faith in her and think she turned into another Octavia. Whoever replaced her could use her actions to justify their own dictatorship. Violence was simply not practical for her until she legally gained Imperium. Now though… 😈

Virginia's over here playing 3D chess while everyone else is playing Connect Four, but this still isn’t enough for some people. After the clone gets the better of her, she gets flack for not being an omniscient god and just knowing her twin brother laid out a plan to clone himself ten years ago. Tut, tut, should have seen that one coming, despite the lack of evidence. If only she’d punched some people. (Can you see I hate this argument with every fiber of my being?)

In Dark Age, Ozgard says this about Electra and Pax: "She is better fighter. He is more dangerous human." (184) Well, Pax gets it from his momma. Pax and Virginia may not be able to throw devastating punches but in many ways, their intellect is what makes them the greater threat to their enemies.

Thank you for the ask!

#virginia au augustus #red rising #iron gold #dark age #iron gold trilogy #dark age spoilers #astreamikaelson13 #sorry I disappeared for like a week #I'm back writing unnecessarily long posts #my post

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samclownchester · 4 years

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Supernatural Rewatch 04x03

In The Beginning

(Next Episode | Masterlist | Previous Episode)

Shoooot I want to do an analysis of Cas and Dean’s relationship centered around the concept of lies. Like … Dean usually reacts very strongly to being lied to and we see that later on in the show between these two, but when they first meet like, all Cas does is LIE … anyway there’s just a lot of lying going around this season. I’ll come back to this thought in a later episode probably.

First of all, Sam is not in this episode at all. He’s in like 5 seconds at the beginning. They’re really doing a lot of work this season to show that the brothers are on totally separate paths.

Then, Cas blasts Dean to the past with no explanation and offers very little help while he’s there. At first it seems like he’s just being your typical unhelpful magical character who pushes the protagonist the way they need to go but lets them figure out the details themselves:

DEAN ...tell me what the hell I'm doing here! CASTIEL I told you, you have to stop it.

DEAN Stop what? Huh? What, is there something nasty after my Dad? [CASTIEL is gone] DEAN Oh, come on! What, are you allergic to straight answers, you son of a bitch?!

but at the end of the episode he admits that he straight up lied to Dean, or at least, he allowed Dean to operate under false pretenses:

DEAN I couldn't stop any of it.…

CASTIEL Don't be too hard on yourself. You couldn't have stopped it. …Destiny can't be changed, Dean

(I suppose it could be argued that the first two times Cas told Dean to “Stop it” he was referring to Sam using his powers, especially given the last line of this episode

CASTIEL You brother is headed down a dangerous road, Dean, and we're not sure where it leads. So stop it. Or we will.

And therefore never technically lied to Dean about the reason he brought him to the past, however, he was fully aware of how Dean had interpreted the command and, although he talked about the consequences of changing the past, he never told Dean that he was wrong.

CASTIEL You realize, if you do alter the future, your father, you, Sam – you'll never become hunters. And all those people you saved, they'll die.

In my book, that counts as lying.)

So, Cas, on orders from Heaven, lied to Dean and made him live through this pretty traumatic experience, of believing he could save his family only to watch his grandparents be killed and see his mom make the deal that ruined all their lives, just so he could “know everything [they] know.” It would have been a lot easier to just have a conversation about it, preferably with both Dean and Sam, and try to figure out Azazel’s end game, but instead Heaven decided (because we can’t entirely blame Cas for this, brainwashed as he is) to put Dean in an emotionally vulnerable state before revealing to him what Sam has been up to. We’ll talk about the consequences of that next episode (hint, it involves responding with cruelty).

A couple other thoughts:

Cas says to Dean “Destiny can’t be changed” in this episode which … obviously is a very big theme of this show. Everyone is constantly telling them what their destiny is, Sam was supposed to go dark and kill the other psychic kids, but he didn’t. Sam and Dean are supposed to be the vessels and start the apocalypse, but they don’t. Dean is supposed to lock himself in the box or risk releasing Michael onto the world, but he doesn’t. The end is supposed to be Sam or Dean killing the other but … it isn’t?? (🤞 let’s see). Anyway, I just wanted to point out that what Cas states as fact here is disproven over and over on the show. Destiny can be changed.

Also, when Cas tells Dean what would happen if he altered the future, two thoughts:

1) He says Sam and Dean will never become hunters and all the people they saved will die and Dean says

DEAN Oh, I care. I care a lot, but these are my parents. I'm not gonna let them die again. I can't. No, not if I can stop it.

This hails back to 2x20 when Dean was living in a dream world where this exact scenario happened, but in that world he wasn’t ok with letting all those people stay dead so he could live in peace. What’s different this time? Well, for one thing he’s been to Hell so maybe that’s changed his approach to life a bit, but also I think it has to do with action. In 2x20 Dean didn’t really do much to “save” his mom, but then he found himself in a position where the action he could take was “save” the people, put the world back right (and then he realized it was fake anyway.) In this episode, the action in front of him is to save his parents.

I don’t know if I’m making sense here but what I’m trying to say is that I think Dean is very action oriented and he wants to attack the problem in front of him, whatever that problem is. The answer to the question : Would you like your family to live in peace if it meant all the people you’ve saved would die? Changes depending on what immediate action he is presented with. He wants to be the hero of the moment, rather than really weigh the two options.

2) We see in S13 a world where Mary didn’t make the deal with Azazel. Naturally, if Dean had been able to stop Azazel earlier maybe he and Sam could’ve grown up in peace, but in Apocalypse World we know that things played out largely how they did here, except Mary chose not to make the deal and John stayed dead. She kept hunting and became jaded and cold, and Sam and Dean weren’t around to stop the apocalypse when Lucifer and Michael came for each other. Now, I’m not saying this is inevitably the only thing that could have happened if Mary didn’t make the deal, but it is one possible world.

Lastly, Dean has an opportunity to see his dad as a young man. There’s obviously lots of complicated feelings happening for him, but the biggest thing is probably how different John’s demeanor is, and Mary tells us clearly

DEAN What's he like? John. ... MARY I don't know. He's sweet, kind. Even after the war, after everything, he still believes in happily ever after, you know? He's everything a hunter isn't

Which ... I can hate John and realize that he’s a complicated character who is a product of his circumstances, right? He wasn’t always a piece of trash, he used represent to Mary the freedom and peace she had been denied her whole life (much how Lisa represents that to Dean imo (see 3x10)) and it’s just so tragic that he became exactly what Mary never wanted to have in her life. (And that her sons became that too). The writers really wanted to kill us with this dramatic irony.

(We also have references later to him being a trash husband even before he was hardened by grief though, so it’s also possible that Mary is seeing him through rose-colored glasses, that she just sees the man she wants him to be and hasn’t recognized the darker, crueler sides of him).

Question to ponder (and also please comment/message me if you have an answer)

It’s interesting that Dean is named after their grandmother and Sam is named after their grandfather, especially given the fact that Sam tends to be more associated with feminine things than Dean. It would’ve been easy to just have Mary’s mom be named Samantha and her father be named Dean (it wouldn’t be that weird if she named her first born son after her father who had recently died tbh) so ... why did the writers chose to set it up the way they did? Is there something about their characters we can extrapolate from this?

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tauriatalksmonkeys · 4 years

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Ideas on Xan's relationship with Antauri and Mandarin and how he could have treated them differently?

:D i’ve seen a few different people’s answers to this, so i think it’s. finally time that i give you some as well :P (also this ended up kind of long, so! i’ve put a lot of it under a readmore :D)

I believe this is something that I’ve halfway talked about before? But that was... idk, a year or so ago? So, I don’t necessarily think that my thoughts now will match up with my thoughts then XD

As a mentor, I think Xan was very strict and distant? I think he was a very tough mentor who expected the best from both of them at all times. He wasn’t necessarily cruel when they failed, but there was always that... disappointed feeling from him, behind the mask. Success, though, was usually rewarded. Rare compliments were given out, or maybe they would be allowed to take a long break / a day off, or something? I don’t know. I feel like he rewarded excellence, did nothing for mediocrity, and assigned tougher / crueler tasks if you were slacking off.

I also feel like Xan had a very holier-than-thou attitude that was sort of... encouraged / cultivated by the other Verans. I mean. You have this whole group of people who are just... super entrenched in the Power Primate (and the fact that theyre apparently glowing humanoid beings is honestly a waste. a planet full of sapient gorillas or smth would have been cooler, imo. but i should stop, before i go on a tangent / give myself ideas :p). They know a lot about it, they’ve obviously collected all the lore that they can about various galactic mythos and such, and...

They do nothing with it.

Did they warn the people of Shuggazoom that their planet was the host of a Dark One egg? No! Did they monitor the state of the Dark One egg? No! Did they keep an eye on Skeleton King, someone corrupted by Dark One forces? No! What about Yoggasoth (or whatever the water-god’s name was)? Did they take the box he was sealed in away for containment? No!

They seem very much content to ignore the goings-on of the rest of the universe, and that’s why I have the tag #varon mystics hate blog.

I feel like Mandarin was always something of a perfectionist. The type who could not, would not accept failure. I feel like the Alchemist would have done his best to sort of... get him to accept failure as part of the process? But that Xan, on the other hand, encouraged those perfectionist tendencies, making them more prominent and perhaps even worse.

Which, like, I don’t want to take away all of Mandarin’s agency, BUT I also like to think that if certain things had been different, he would have tried to take over Shuggazoom. And one of those things might have been having a better mentor.

*clears throat*

Anyway!

However, outside of that, I feel like Mandarin and Xan clashed a lot. Xan strikes me as someone who very much likes to hear himself talk, and to wax poetic---two things Mandarin has no patience for. In part because Mandarin also likes to hear himself talk---though he’s more likely to get straight to the point.

I also feel like part of Mandarin’s desire to sort of take over the city stemmed from wanting to help. Like. I definitely think there was some arrogance to the plan, maybe he got a little lost in being the absolute boss---but I think at the end of the day he really did just want to make the city safer? Like. The people of Shuggazoom really don’t seem to know how to handle being attacked, even though it literally happens all the time.

So, obviously, Mandarin wanting to do the opposite of the Verans and actually, y’know, keep people out of danger; wanting to implement proper safety procedures; and... well. Live out some of his more grandiose fantasies, where he’s the kickass leader / ruler that everyone looks up to.

But, of course, it backfires, and that’s part of the reason that he clashes with his team, because they don’t get where he’s coming from, because all they read from him is arrogance.

And probably other, more complicated things to? Because like I said, I don’t want to take agency from him, or gloss over / remove the fact that he was wrong, but I also think it was more complicated than it was presented in the show.

As for Antauri, I think he was very much the model student in some ways, and less so in others? I think parts of the Veran’s training came easily to him, like meditation & the inner primate & such, but I think other parts came harder to him. So he and Mandarin were more or less equal in that way?

However, I feel like he got on better with Xan. The two of them could engage in long, complicated philosophical debates, PLUS Antauri was (unfortunately) more easily manipulated than Mandarin. So, Xan very much treated him like a teacher’s pet / someone to use. & he very much filled Antauri’s head with a lot of things---like emotional distance & not letting people in & doing his duty above all else & other, not immediately obviously harmful stuff, but which (in my headcanon) did do damage to him, and very much affected his relationships to the team.

Part of Mandarin (the part that look for approval, however much he denies doing so) was jealous / angry about that. The other part felt sorry for Antauri, because... oof.

I also kind of feel like Xan would have pitted them against each other? Made them compete for his approval / affection? Not necessarily in an obvious way, but! & I feel like, it wasn’t until after they left Koralodal that Mandarin & Antauri’s relationship recovered. (Though it never really did fully, which is why Mandarin considered Otto his closest confidante. Maybe?)

As for how he could have done things differently!! Um, I think he could have been easier on them, and let them know it was okay to fail. I think he could have taught them that yes, making decisions based on logic and not emotion is a good idea, but feeling things isn’t bad --- and neither is cultivating relationships!

#oh look #i just made a really long post where #out of all the characters #i projected onto MANDARIN #i mean #i love the little goblin bc the potential is outstanding #but!!!!!#did not think i would be projecting on him today #& yet here we are #monkey talk #metamonkey #asks and answers #lovely anons #veran mystics hate blog #xan #the mentors #mandarin #antauri

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zdbztumble · 5 years

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So About That Roxas…

Well, it’s that time - time to invite unholy disdain upon myself for my blasphemous views on fan favorite Roxas!

OK, that’s an exaggeration. I don’t know how unpopular what I’m about to say really is. And to make this perfectly clear up-front - I don’t dislike Roxas. I think he’s a fine character, and his (very) long prologue is one of the strongest parts of KH II. But I do find Roxas more valuable and compelling in how he relates to other characters, and in the fact that he is an aspect of Sora, than in his own right. All on his own, I don’t find Roxas to be particularly active or interesting.

And that isn’t a flaw. Given what Nobodies are (prior to DDD, at least), I would expect that from Roxas. Almost every member of Organization XIII isn’t terribly dynamic or dimensional on their own merits - their personalities are one-note (if that), which can be by turns tragic, obnoxious, or an effective foil for the protagonists. When Roxas draws jealousy from Hayner, general confusion from his friend group, some amount of pathos from Axel, mixed emotions from Riku and disdain from DiZ, and attraction from Namine, he’s a great example of the latter. I never find him obnoxious, and when he is on his own, there is a sense of tragedy with him. Because while Roxas may have agency, and does display a curiosity - almost an obsession, after a while - with gaining answers for the strange things happening to him, he’s ultimately empty. None of his joys, none of his curiosity - and not even his rages and despairs - last. He ends up defaulting, always, into a quiet, resigned, and hollow state, and he doesn’t seem happy about that.

This is true of the Twilight Town prologue, at least. In the brief flashbacks we’re given in KH II, and at the beginning of the Sora/Roxas fight, a different Roxas appears. He’s still empty at the core, but his front to the world is crueler, dismissive even of the words of his supposed best friend Axel, and predatory. We learn later in the game that DiZ altered Roxas’s personality when he dropped him into the digital Twilight Town, and it’s not hard to see why. Even with the altered personality, the strongest display of feeling Roxas can manage is anger. It’s only when Roxas confronts Sora, accepts him as “a good other,” and fully rejoins with him, that Roxas appears genuinely happy and alive in KH II.

But I do have problems with how Roxas is used, in KH II and especially in 358/2 Days. To start with II - there are some pretty big missed opportunities. Roxas was a member of Organization XIII, presumably working toward their goals (to go just on what we see in KH II), and every member of the Organization who sees Sora recognizes Roxas within him. Wouldn’t it have been nice to have someone else do the same? If, when visiting one of the Disney worlds that Sora hasn’t been to before, there was a character who had a negative encounter with Roxas, and therefore fears Sora and the Keyblade?

The lack of any such scene speaks to a larger problem with Roxas in KH II: his limited relevance once the prologue ends. He does come up here and there throughout the play time, which I do appreciate, but he doesn’t really have an impact on Sora before their clash other than as a source of mild confusion. Sora’s reactions to being called by Roxas’s name never progress much past “huh? Cut that out!” and he has no real reaction to learning that his own Nobody was a member of Organization XIII. Had Roxas’s activities over the past year created a negative consequence that Sora had to deal with, that might have invited some internal conflict within Sora’s heart, culminating in a much more emotionally charged clash with Organizers like Xibar and Saix. Hell, even without such a scene, the knowledge that a part of him was a member of the bad guys could have, and should have, made Sora feel at least a little upset. That’s not to say that the absence of such a mini-arc is a dealbreaker for KH II; what we did get works well enough. But, much like Roxas himself, something seems to be missing.

A future game might have been able to address this issue...had it not been for 358/2 Days.

This isn’t a revisit of Days; I can’t very well revisit a game I only ever played the first few minutes of, years ago, before losing touch with the friend who had the DS card for it. You’ll get no views of the gameplay here. But I am familiar with Days; I’ve read the breakdowns, researched its writing, and watched the movie multiple times. And I gotta tell ya - I know the game has its fans, and it may have some strengths and concepts missing from other titles, but I really don’t care for its story. And that has a lot to do with how it mishandles Roxas.

I’ll start with a caveat - I am not the audience for Days. At no point while playing KH II did I ever want to know any more about Roxas or the Organization than that game saw fit to reveal. What we got was enough for them to work as the villains in that story, and that’s all I ever needed them to be. This was always going to be an easy title for me to skip, or at least not take any real interest in. But that’s a matter of taste. Plenty of people take more interest in the backstories of Roxas and the Organization than I do, and this was perfectly acceptable as a subject for a midquel game. But the execution, IMO, is a complete mess. It ignores or retcons several of the snippets we get about the Organization in KH II, to poor effect, and fails to expand on any of the villainous Organizers in a way that might turn them from one-note video game bosses and elements of a hive mind into fleshed-out characters. Axel is given several coats of whitewash, and his history with Saix lacks any resonance when Saix is left as such a hollow villain. There’s no playing alongside Disney characters in a game so given over to original KH lore, and that lore is rewritten in ways I don’t like. The trends of mystery for its own sake and teasing histories and future events at the expense of the story at hand continue, the same few points of lore and logistics are over-stressed, and the dialogue and voice acting just isn’t good (and can anyone tell me why they re-dubbed Christopher Lee in the HD movie version? I mean...it’s Christopher Lee!)

But as I said, the real problem is with Roxas. For a character meant to be the protagonist, Roxas cedes a lot of narrative real estate to new character Xion. Like Days itself, I know Xion has fans - ardent fans. I can’t argue with that, nor would I want to; you can like what you like, and I won’t assess and critique her as a character here. But all I can say about Xion is that, as a writer, she strikes me as redundant. A member of Organization XIII, unusually lacking in knowledge about their life beforehand, wielding the Keyblade, inducted into the Organization within this game, derived from Sora through unusual means, with a connection to Kairi and whose existence arrests Sora’s full restoration from the events of CoM; setting her character aside, Xion’s narrative function is exactly what Roxas’s was established to be by KH II.

One could say that the game makes a point of this, turning it into an orchestrated conflict between the two by Xemnas, but practically speaking, this means that Roxas spends a key chunk of the story displaced. He becomes a friend on the sidelines as the real meat of the story concerns a character who, from the very beginning, anyone who played KH II would know isn’t going to matter past this game. This ends up making Xion more important, and more interesting, than Roxas within Days itself. But almost everything that Xion goes through could have easily been given to him by dint of what we see in KH II. That Sora’s restoration is upset because his memories of Kairi are being absorbed into another being would have been especially appropriate for Roxas, since Kairi’s very name is always fractured in the restoration process during II’s prologue at first, and the process itself is at such a low number despite a year having passed until Roxas is in DiZ’s hands. Those character elements unique to Xion herself, and the conflict between her and Roxas engineered by Xemnas, aren’t enough to justify her presence in the larger KH story IMO, and end up confusing elements of the lore (replicas, memories, etc.) If she had been cut, and those aspects of her story relating to Sora’s restoration given to Roxas, the story and lore integrity would’ve been better for it.

But that wouldn’t have solved everything wrong with Roxas in Days. Let’s look back at what KH II shows us of a pre-DiZ Roxas again. A cold and predatory figure; the Dusks who first come for him in Twilight Town address him as their “liege,” implying that they served him the way other Nobodies serve the Organizers; the Organizers themselves seem to have been quite close to Roxas, taking his betrayal hard and referring to him as “brother.” And Organization XIII, as we see it in KH II vanilla, is a collective, with no real secret about its motives within the ranks - that motive being, in so many words, to let the remaining Heartless continue their genocide across the worlds just so that they can swoop in with the Keyblade, harvest the captive hearts, and offer them up to their Kingdom Hearts in a mad bid to gain hearts of their own.

So why is Roxas so innocent in Days?

That cold exterior, the flashes of temper - that’s not what we get from Roxas here. What we get is a blank slate who becomes a puppy as he strikes up a buddy-buddy relationship with Axel, and who later performs the same function for Xion. He talks about fighting the darkness and asks hopefully if he’s performing “good” deeds. His interactions with his friends show him to be cheerful and open. The Samurai are supposedly under his command, but that’s a detail relegated to the reports. His relationships with anyone in the Organization other than Axel and Xion don’t even warrant scenes in the movie, and nothing suggests that they would deem him “brother;” Saix and Xemnas regard him as no more than a tool . And even though he’s destroying Heartless with the Keyblade, and those hearts are becoming part of the Organization’s Kingdom Hearts...somehow this is a point he needs explained several times? And he and Xion openly doubt why they need hearts at all - a point presented as one to be sympathetic toward, despite everything from KH II and a good chunk of this very game stressing that it is in fact a problem that Nobodies lack hearts?

This is not what was indicated in KH II. What’s worse, it’s boring. A far more effective choice IMO would have been to let Roxas be villainous. Go the dark protagonist route; give us a cold hunter of a character, with the impulsive anger and fractured psyche Sora showed in CoM, fully aware of what the Organization is up to and the price that others will pay for it and still committed to the cause. Then, when the events of CoM play out in the background, and fragments of Sora’s memories find their way to Roxas (assuming we still cut Xion in this scenario), that’s the turning point. That’s when Roxas can doubt the Organization’s cause, when he can begin to question his lack of memories and his true identity, and betray the Organization by setting out to find Sora. Give him two separate fights with Riku, to justify the dialogue claiming such in KH II. Let him develop some awareness of Namine after he gets Sora’s memories; Namine’s dialogue in KH II indicates that they’ve never met before, but a connection at a distance could serve to give more substance to their relationship, and supply Namine with opportunities to develop as a character. Depict the scenes where she first comes into contact with DiZ and Riku, agrees to take on their help in restoring Sora’s memories, and feels conflicted about the moral gray area their harsh but necessary actions occupy. Let her be ultimately responsible for setting Riku on the right trail that ends up bringing Roxas into their hands.

Of course, one reason why they may have opted not to do this is because having a dark protagonist complicit in an evil scheme involving the deaths of countless people may have been difficult to pull off while still earning an E10 rating at most. And honestly, the story told by Days doesn’t strike me as necessarily the best fit for a video game even as-is. They might have been better off with planning it as a proper movie from the get-go, instead of a string of cutscenes divorced from the gameplay as they ultimately presented it in the HD collections.

And another objection to this approach might have been that a villainous Roxas and morally ambiguous Namine might have been less “likable,” and therefore less usable in future titles. To that I say - so what? I didn’t want Roxas and Namine as characters in any titles past KH II anyway - not because they were bad characters, or because I didn’t like them, but because their stories concluded. Concluded on terms they chose, and were at peace with. It was tinged with a bittersweet quality, but they did get a “happy” ending. If a midquel story complicated their morality, that wouldn’t negate the events of KH II or the resolution they received; it would have created a journey to get them to that point, starting from a much darker place, and given more weight to the idea that it was necessary for them to rejoin with Sora and Kairi. I’d argue that would enrich what we see in KH II, whereas the actual route they took in titles like DDD and KH III disregards or undermines everything that made the ending of KH II work.

#z's crits #kingdom hearts #roxas #namine #kingdom hearts 2 #critique #commentary #358/2 days #xion

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snkpolls · 5 years

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SnK S3E20 Poll Results (Manga Reader Version)

The poll closed with 287 responses. Thank you to everyone who participated!

Please note that these are the results of the manga reader poll. Anime only watchers are suggested not to read if you do not wish to be spoiled about certain events! Anime only viewers, click here to view your poll results!

RATE THE EPISODE 279 Responses

This episode was another hit with most viewers, with 74.6% of participants ranking it 5 out of 5.

Just brilliant. Best series.

This was the first episode I’d been excited for in weeks. With the serum bowl I was dreading the last three episodes but the Marley Arc is my fave and I’m super super excited for what comes next in the anime.

The music was incredible and Grisha's VA stole the show.

The best of this season yet!

This season has now given us 2 (two) episodes WITHOUT openings and both times the episodes blew me away. I’m so stoked for the fourth season

I'd say it was a pretty solid episode. I can't believe we've finally made it to Marley, I am so not ready for the nonstop angst that is to come…

Anime quality was ass again, but the plot and voice acting make this a fantastic episode overall

WHICH OF THE FOLLOWING SCENES WAS THE MOST MEMORABLE? 282 Responses

There were several informative and memorable scenes. 45.7% of participants thought Kruger’s big reveal was the highlight, while 12.1% can’t decide what stuck out the most. 9.9% of participants felt Dina becoming the Smiling Titan made the biggest impression.

DO YOU THINK GRISHA’S FATHER WAS RIGHT IN EASILY DEMEANING HIMSELF AND GRISHA TO GROSS? 270 Responses

Though Grisha’s father yielded to the Marleyan police regarding Faye’s death, 77.4% of participants believed he was right to prevent the rest of his family meeting a similar fate. 15.6% thought he should have shown a bit of resistance towards Gross’s accusations. Many in the comments agree the situation is simply not that black and white.

It's not whether it's 'right' or 'wrong' in these situations - if your options are the death of your family or satisfying your own feelings of dignity, then I think it's up to the individual what their priority is. But I think it is not a sign of weakness to put your family first.

He probably hated himself for doing it (at least I'd do), but losing another loved one would be horrible for anyone in his situation, so I can understand why he did that.

I can't really answer with clear 'yes' or 'no'. On one side, He was right to protect the rest of his family, on the other... He could try to comfort Grisha in a better way (you know, not yelling at him to be silent)

No, but I think he could’ve dealt with Grisha more privately. He didn’t have to continue with his indoctrination of Grisha.

I think it's complicated

no one is right or wrong here.

SERGEANT MAJOR GROSS STATED THAT “PEOPLE LOSE TOUCH WITH LIFE AND DEATH AND START TAKING THEIR LIVES FOR GRANTED." DO YOU THINK THERE IS TRUTH TO WHAT HE SAYS? 283 Responses

Gross told Grisha that people took their lives for granted when losing touch with life and death. 60.4% of participants think there is truth to his words even if his actions are morbid. 27.2% believe he just said this to excuse his cruelty.

Idk but him staring into my soul made me unconfortable

That is true, but it doesn't actually justify or support his position. We're SUPPOSED to all have the luxury and privilege of 'taking life for granted', as he puts it - that's why humanity has worked so fucking long to improve society to this point! We shouldn't have to think in life-or-death terms to consider ourselves worthy of living.

There is truth, but it's obvious that it's more words for him justifying his horrible actions more than a maxime which guides his life. If it were so, he wouldn't have been scared and screaming when the titan eat him.

Yes, but he's just making excuses for his sadistic mind.

DO YOU THINK HUMANS IN GENERAL BECOME INTERESTED IN VIOLENCE? 284 Responses

The episode observes humans and their reaction to violence, Gross saying he finds it interesting. 49.6% of participants believe that most people are interested in violence, while 40.1% specify that it depends on how violent the event is.

The most interesting part of the episode is Gross addressing the viewer over making his victim dance. Part of SnK is watching some victim being devored by the lions. Be it Faye to the dogs, Mike to the titans, Eren's squad to the titans in Trost, Carla to Dina, Marco to Araki Titan, Bert to Armin... the reactions however differ. Some of us came to see characters fighting and get eaten by giant monsters, but as the story progressed, our point of view differed and it became disgust for the most part.

HOW DID YOU FEEL ABOUT GROSS'S DEATH? 281 Responses

Gross’s death was a gruesome one, but 53.4% participants were satisfied he got what they feel he deserved. 17.1% were less comfortable by the irony of the situation, and 13.2% found his struggle enjoyable.

Watching reaction videos where people cheer on Gross getting his face chopped on kinda unsettled me, I'm not gonna lie.

IS FAYE’S DEATH THE CRUELEST MOMENT IN THE SERIES? 282 Responses

Being torn apart by dogs is a disturbing way to go and 46.8% of participants felt it was the cruelest moment of the series thus far. 45.4%, however, believed there were crueler moments worthy of mention.

I didn't think Faye's death was the cruelest because let's face it, Mike's was the absolute worst. :(

GIVEN HOW HE TREATED ZEKE, DO YOU THINK GRISHA IMPROVED AS A FATHER WHEN IT CAME TO EREN? 280 Responses

Though Grisha didn’t show a lot of compassion for Zeke as a son, 55.4% of participants believed he learned to be a better father for Eren as a result. 24.3% would rather have more information before saying for sure, and 20.4% of participants felt Grisha didn’t quite change his ways.

GRISHA STATED THAT YMIR “BROUGHT BOUNDLESS PROSPERITY” TO THE WORLD. WHEN GRICE QUESTIONED THAT, GRISHA RETORTED WITH THE FACT THAT HE “BELIEVED IN YMIR”. WHAT DO YOU THINK HAPPENED? 282 Responses

There was a mix of histories regarding Ymir Fritz. 50% of participants believed Ymir may have brought prosperity but that Grisha was also jumping to conclusions without context. 40.4% of participants thought Grisha was just seeing what he wanted to see.

Grisha’s va knocked it out of the park this week. The episode made me re-think whether grisha actually could read any of the sacred texts. Was he just BSing the whole way through? Will we ever know what they say in that case?

BEST ROGUE TITAN DESIGN? 282 Responses

Out of the three Rogue titan designs, a majority 62.8% of participants thought Eren’s was the most physically appealing.

Best Rogue Titan design? That's not even a question. ITS ALWAYS ERENS. LOL

HOW FAITHFUL WAS THE ADAPTATION TO THE ORIGINAL MANGA? 276 Responses

A majority of manga readers believed the episode was mostly faithful to the original chapters, with 54.3% believing it was nearly perfect. Others felt the episode could have been more accurate.

Great, pacing was a little quick but I think the anime adaptation explained everything a bit better than the anime. I had to go back and read those chapters like 3 times to fully understand everything lol. I do wish they didn't cut lines from the warrior selection announcement though. Overall great though!

Great adaptation. They should've cut the ending too, so they wouldn't need to cut some parts, but it was as close to perfection either way.

I'm sad that they omitted so much when Marley announces the Marley warrior program. Besides that I think it was an amazing episode.

Was thoroughly impressed with how they managed to adapt two of the most dense chapters into a single ep without any significant cuts. The artwork for the Eldia/Marley lore was gorgeous, and the performances were as expected, phenomenal. Kruger's transformation was breathtaking, as was the OST. Definitely one of the best episodes of the season. Also, Marina Inoue saying "Shingeki no Kyojin" in the preview gave me chills.

KRUGER'S HAIR: BLOND OR BLACK? 282 Responses

Kruger’s hair was colored dirty blond in the anime compared to the darker shade in the manga. 47.5% of participants felt that either color choice worked well for him, while 39.4% preferred his black hair.

kruger is a dirty blonde colour imo ;p

I’m just over the moon to finally see The Owl aka Kruger animated with a voice.

The color scheme in this series has always been weird. Not that Isayama himself is limited palette-wise, but the colors have been much sober than WIT's multicolor fest. Kruger's hair are meant to be black or dark brown. Isayama draws blonde/hazelnut hair with full lines. Same goes with the uniform: Isayama uses frames for dark colors (the SC's green coat ie), ink for black and dark blue. Anime already made odd choices with Mikasa's scarf (black in the manga) or Armin's eyes (brown).

Always thought Kruger was brunette

After last week's preview I thought Kruger with blond hair was weird but having watched this week's episode I think it fits better with the blue uniform and the show's colour palette. Besides, he still looks hot so all is fine lol

HOW DID YOU FEEL ABOUT THE APPEARANCE OF MARLEY? 282 Responses

A majority 60.3% of participants believe Marley’s appearance was just as modern as they expected it. 29.4% of participants thought it appeared more lavished.

WHAT DID YOU THINK ABOUT THE CENSORSHIP FOR SOME OF THE GRAPHIC SCENES? 283 Responses

Some of the more graphic scenes were censored in the anime, but 53% of participants aren’t bothered by it. 35.7% of participants were disappointed that some parts weren’t shown as a result and 11.3% felt it was appropriate to censor the more graphic scenes.

I don't mind Grisha's penis as well as the gory parts being censored (it's NHK after all), but the censorship comes across as convenient for the series. They omitted some marleyans officers saying Gross was going too far, or masked the details of the warrior program: no full confirmation of RBA being trained into infancy to be promoted at the status of Honorary Marleyans. Conbine that with the RBZ+Pieck scenes from this season being watered down and you have the anime making it even more black and white than the manga.

ISAYAMA ASKED THE ANIME TO HIGHLIGHT GROSS’ SPEECH TO BREAK THE 4TH WALL AS A “CALL OUT” TO THE VIEWER. WAS THIS DIRECTION SUCCESSFUL? 277 Responses

Gross’s 4th wall break was a request made by Isayama to address the viewer as he spoke. 65.3% of participants felt the direction made them feel more called out than when they originally read it. 24.9% can’t relate to what Gross is saying in the first place.

His eyes that never left the spectator's gaze froze my blood, it was really very successfully made.

I get what Isayama was trying to do but there's a huge difference between being sadistic knowing that it's fictional and being sadistic in real life

Honestly I didn't even know that he broke the 4th wall until I took this poll.

I didn't feel like what he was saying pertained to me because I've always been repulsed by his mentality and justifications.I think it says more about Isayama that he felt this was something that needed to be broadcast to society.

The speech wasn't as well done in the anime. I think he broke the 4th wall in the manga pretty well.

The Gross 4th wall break didn't really deliver in the end. Wish it was more obvious (eye contact, zoom in, voice acting)

It would have been a lot more successful if he'd written the call out to come from someone less sadistic and despicable. It's hard to reflect like that on words that came from a character that had a nine year old child eaten alive by dogs.

considering i had no idea it was meant to be a callout, i'd say it failed

WHAT DO YOU THINK WILL HAPPEN WITH YMIR’S BACKSTORY FLASHBACK NEXT EPISODE? 280 Responses

Since Ymir’s backstory was moved to Season 2, 39.3% believe that Historia reading the letter will show Ymir’s death instead of the entire flashback. 35.7% of participants think the scene will just show a cut down version of the backstory with Ymir’s narration in the background. 21.1% believe that the backstory will be shown again with some tweak to the narration.

Fuck man I dunno, maybe they'll play some interval music and Ymir will tapdance

I feel like the one disappointing thing about this part in the manga is that Ymir died offscreen. This would be a good change and I wouldn’t mind a teaser of Galliard also.

The backstory shown in season 2 wasnt the letter 1/1 right? Then just have the letter read out and have slightly altered images of her story

I got no idea which way they'll go, but WIT will do her story justice, no doubt about that

They will recycle s2's animation and that's it. If they show Ymir's fate, kudos to them, considering they've been pretty lazy with additional content so far.

THE ANIME ADAPTED EREN'S LINE AFTER WAKING UP AS "WHO AM I?" WAS THIS A MORE APPROPRIATE PHRASE THAN THE TRANSLATIONS ABOUT EREN USING DIFFERENT JAPANESE PRONOUNS OR HAVING A DIFFERENT VOICE? 280 Responses

In the manga, Armin comments on Eren’s change of pronouns when he first wakes up, but the anime changed this line to “Who am I?” 38.6% of participants thought this change made more sense in context. 30.7% of participants didn’t realize there was a change, and 21.4% thought the manga made enough sense for it not to warrant a change.

I feel like this episode is where we lost Eren as he once was. The change wasn't immediate, but this is the impetus. All that information, all those memories. The boy has started to become a man.

WHICH SCENE FROM THE PREVIEW ARE YOU MOST LOOKING FORWARD TO? 284 Responses

Of the scenes that were shown, a majority of 52.1% of participants are most looking forward to more conversation between Kruger and Grisha.

Historia is lookin fine in the preview

ADDITIONAL THOUGHTS ON THE EPISODE?

Just a nitpick but I wish Kruger’s attack titan was animated more in destroying the boat since it felt more like a colored panel; I’m still happy how it turned it though! Maybe there might be additional animation next episode but I can only hope :’D

This episode was beautifully done. The voice acting really knocked it out of the park, especially Grisha's. His screams, holy shit. I got chills. Kruger's voice was also brilliant, just that perfect blend of nonchalant and forbidding. What I found interesting was the VA for young Grisha sounded so much like Kaji Yuuki! I saw in the credits that it wasn't actually him, but what an excellent casting choice!

Needs more Floch

KRUGER!!!!

This S3P2 has to have the weirdest pacing I've ever seen: the 2ch1ep formula doesn't work at all for backstories like Grisha's, considering the whole worldbuilding is unleashed. That being said, the preview from last episode's accustomed the anime-onlys to the outside world, but combining chapter 86 and 87 leaves no time to breathe properly.

Thinking back on it, wasn’t this Grisha’s first time seeing Titans in the flesh, and eating a person right in front of him?

I had hoped Kruger's hat toss would be more dramatic, but alas, t'wasn't. Other than that, went pretty good

They pronounce 'Zeke' completely different from how I imagined it would sound.

Perfect, especially the final scene. I knew what was coming, but seeing the restorationists become the Trost Titans, the Dina reveal, and Owl transformation was something else. That sequence is on par with Reiner/Bertholdt reveal and Erwin’s charge as best scenes in the series. At least for the anime so far.

I thought this episode was kind of disappointing. Maybe it's just because I really dislike the tone shift that came with the Marley stuff, but I thought the manga handled all this exposition kind of awkwardly and was hoping for better from the anime. Nope, the only thing improving it is that it won't be drawn out for months between chapters this time.

Bby Zook my boi, must protecc at all costs, so innocent, so pure

In one episode all this information WAS WAY TOO MUCH! poor anime-only fans lmao

WHERE DO YOU PRIMARILY DISCUSS THE SERIES? 265 Responses

Thanks again to everyone who participated! We’ll see you again in a few days!

#snk spoilers #snk s3 #snk poll #snk polls #poll results

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naylar-draws · 5 years

Note

so like could you tell us why strickler deserved to die

Lol I was not expecting someone to ask about that tag!

Boy oh boy ask and you shall recieve

(I did not intend for the reply to be this long but like here’s another essay length meta)

I don’t think Strickler as a character deserved to die, he’s far from the most heinous character in TH. But from a storytelling standpoint, I think killing him off in the s3 finale would have improved Trollhunters as a whole. For that point to make sense I’m gonna need to explain a few things first:

~1700 words under the cut

1) It is more or less an unspoken rule that if an action/adventure oriented story (be it a show, film, book, etc) wants to feel like it has real stakes, a character needs to die. Not just any character, but a main character or an important side character. This isn’t always the case, and I personally don’t think that there needs to be a death to make a story feel more real (No one died in ATLA’s finale), but that’s the trend and is often the easiest, most basic way to things. If utilized right, it can have a huge impact (Ned Stark in game of thrones, Boromir in fellowship)

2) A good finale/climax of a story wraps up the story’s themes and emotional core. It emphasizes it in some way, or offers commentary on it. IMHO a lot of TV and comic book finales can fall short because this. And its not necessarily the creators’ faults, its simply the structure of the industry. Often times a tv finale will be made before the creative team knows whether or not there will be a next season, or they’ll only be given a handful of episodes to wrap up the series. Same with comics. Good climaxes that incorporate a story’s theme off the top of my head are TAZ Balance, Guardians of the Galaxy, and Rocky.

3) A character death needs to mean something, either as a way to complete their character arc, or to comment on some overarching theme, or even to further another character’s development. (Boromir again, Gamora in Infinity War - yes I know she’s coming back - all the fucks that die in Last Stand of the Wreckers)

4) Positive actions should have payoffs. This is kind of cynical, but narratively, if a story wants to say that something is good, there should be a tangential positive effect for that action. For example, in TAZ balance, the theme is that you should choose love and that the bonds we build in life are just like really awesome man, and in the finale those bonds were actively used as a positive game mechanic which helped the heroes to defeat the enemy. Even if the story’s message is that we should do good even if it doesn’t benefit us, there’s still a positive effect to doing good that needs to be portrayed, for instance it could be “gets you into heaven” “makes you happy“ or “helps other people”.

Okay so that out of the way, I’m going to look at all of this through the lens of Trollhunters as a standalone series, instead of a trilogy. I know that there might be reasons the creative team decided to kill off some characters and not others that’ll be made apparent in Wizards. But since Wizards is a separate tv show from TH, its quality and the quality of Trollhunters should be looked at both individually as well as together. And since Wizards ain’t out I’m looking at TH on its own.

Oki Doki so, onto the meat of it. Trollhunters doesn’t really have any overarching theme or message. Bravery and becoming a hero could be contenders but imo that’s kinda lukewarm. I think an unrealized theme that could’ve been is that of redemption, and the idea that people can change if motivated to do so or offered a chance. One of the things that makes Tollhunters interesting and unique is its sheer amount of redeemed villains. We have Draal in the first six episodes, then Strickler, NotEnrique, Nomura, and Angor Rot. Not to mention Steve, and Aaarrrgghh, whose redemption arc happened before the show started. There are more redeemed villains than villains that stay villains.

And then there’s the people that change but not for the better, like Merlin, who apparently was once a pure and ideal heart, and potentially Morgana.

And then there’s Jim, who is remarkable because of his heart. He gives people chances, offers them friendship where other Trollhunters would have antagonized them. The theme would be basically give people a chance/the benefit of the doubt, reach out an olive branch, it might just make them friends. (And if they don’t take the opportunity to improve murder their faces.)

The TH climax was adequate, it wrapped up the plot, set up for a sequel, and had a decent escalation of action. But honestly, I personally thought the build up to the finale was much better than the finale itself. Though this is just like my opinion man, and if anyone thought it was great, cool.

The character that dies in the finale is Angor Rot. He changes sides and sacrifices himself helping the team battle Morgana. And, like, I always found it just kind of… meh? Like I’m sad that he died he was a great character but his death scene seems so pointless (like Draal’s). As I mentioned on point 3, Angor’s death doesn’t really mean anything. It doesn’t further another character, comment on a theme, and it’s an okay I guess conclusion to his redemption arc. The issue I have with it is that it’s not the natural conclusion to an arc for a character like him to have. We are never told that Angor Rot fears death. He died once and was miffed about it, but we never see an aversion to dying again. No, we see that Angor’s greatest fears are Morgana, and fading away or some shit. If the creators wanted to really write Angor off the show what they should have done was have him be the one to tackle Morgana into the shadow realm and never come back, thus facing an eternity with the one he fears most, the person who stole his soul and turned him into a slave.

BUT IF SOMEONE HAS TO DIE I think an even better death that would have been even better for the show, would be if Strickler sacrificed himself instead and Angor Rot was used to parallel Draal at the beginning of season 1. This would ultimately bring the show full circle and tie the finale in with the rest of the show, and helped realize a theme about redemption.

Strickler would have to sacrifice himself at some other conveniently point that relates to his character more, and the whole finale would have to be restructured, but here’s why I think it would’ve been better:

Strickler is a character who is introduced in the very beginning of the show and remains a constant throughout. He has the most nuanced and prolonged redemption arc of all the characters. He starts out as a self-serving Starscream trope who looks out for himself above all else. Throughout the show, he falls in love with someone and forms a father/son bond with Jim. If you follow the sort of character arc of someone who starts off cowardly and selfish and then learns to care about others to its logical conclusion, you find yourself at the point where the character must sacrifice something in order to prove their change, usually what they originally value most. Throughout the show we see Strickler try so hard and do so much to preserve his own life. What Strickler at the beginning of TH values most is obviously his own life. This is a man who greatly fears death. I’m sure you see where I’m going with this.

It would have been a great conclusion to his character if he sacrificed himself in order to save Barbara and/or Jim. Also it would show that positive payoff to Jim choosing to trust Strickler. If Jim hypothetically didn’t trust Strickler and give him a chance to redeem himself, then hypothetically Strickler wouldn’t be able to sacrifice himself and thus Barbara would hypothetically die.

But who knows, Strickler could die in wizards ;)

Strickler dying would also leave room for Angor Rot surviving. And Angor Rot surviving if done right, could be used to further development with Jim and reinforce that he still has his heart despite sacrificing his humanity. It could also give a reason to Draal’s pointless death (further Jim’s and Angor’s developement).

Here’s what I propose could’ve been done with Angor Rot if he didn’t die: He can turn on Morgana and maybe even appear like he’s going to die. Jim is given a choice of whether or not to save Angor Rot, and maybe at this point or sometime previous in the finale reiterate that Angor killed Draal and Jim’s mad about it. Jim is half troll now, he’s different, angrier and less forgiving, maybe all of its getting to him and the audience is made to wonder if Jim might become more like Merlin (who was once like Jim but became crueler) or if he still has the heart that made him so great in the first place. He’s at a crossroads deciding which path he’s going to go down. And then Jim saves Angor. Have it mirror in some way when Jim spared Draal that first time. Have Angor react similarly, being confused about it and be like “but I killed your buddy, you should let me die as revenge”, and maybe have Jim say something about how that’s not how he does it.

And then, and now I’m just going off and doing that whole “what I would’ve done” thing, but like and then as positive payoff to the good action of choosing to save Angor what if there’s one last scene at the end and it’s in Merlin’s tomb. We see Draal’s stony corpse, and then before it is a cauldron like how we saw with Aaarrrgghh, and it’s all steaming. And Angor’s hand stirs it. Then there’s a wide shot and we see Angor Rot standing before Draal’s corpse as it starts to fade back to living stone. Then Draal opens his eyes. And then cut to black credits role.

But like all of this just my opinion man. My rambling overly critical opinion that would get me weird looks if I talked about it irl lol

#ask #trollhunters #tales of arcadia #walter strickler #meta #words? on my art blog??

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