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chengxians · 2 years

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I truly am in deep with this hyperfixation and I am making it everyone's problem.

Yes! Please keep me updated when you get to that point because I want all of your perspective! Since I haven't read most of the book (just a few scenes to verify certain things) I wanna know if it's as chaotic in the books and if you liked the changes!

LWJ's individual arc is actually something I really enjoyed. WY did a really good job playing it out, from someone who believes wholeheartedly in the rules because his mother died for it so he has to because if he doesn't then does anything matter? and then WWX bursts through the door with like the most minimal but important rules and throughout the story, he learns the difference between doing what's right and doing what's just and when each has its place and its wonderful. I do think that LWJ definitely had more wiggle room to help but that's a convo for another time (and maybe a meta I might write later). And the three months in-between with JC where like JC is a sect leader of a pretty much dead sect and he still makes the time to search for his brother (which is like the 3rd time JC picked WWX over his sect) and he loves him. And then he watches them split and wonders why when they love each other. And knows that JC loves WWX. And LWJ loves WWX too. And there's so much!

I, too, adore W@ngChengX!an! There are so many ways they balance eachother! ChengX!an pre-canon and the angst during the SSC, W@ngX!an during Cloud Recesses, Zh@ncheng after WWX leaves and LWJ wants to learn more about WWX and just learns more about JC too (NHS knows all and introduces them bc I'm always a huge fan of the LXC and NMJ playdates with the baby bros), the three months in between, the 13-16 years in between! The jealousy, the angst, the potential! I could go on for days! (I'm actually planning to do an AllCheng agenda post with various ships and dynamics and ideas because while I can't write fic for shit, I can headcanon my days away).

Their perspectives balance out too! WWX thinks in the broadest perspective of what is Wrong and What is Right, JC is the mid-ground perspective of what are the long-term implcations in society, can it impact how we do other things and how can we plan around it and LWJ (now) thinks of the individual, based on their merit and who they are and becomes less judgemental as a result. I think that's mainly why I don't ship W@ngX!an as much as I could have. But the three of them together have way more going for it (also I have a very specific headcanon that WWX does the flute, LWJ plays the guqin and JC sings the lyrics for WuJi since I feel like a grumpy grape like him must be great at slam poetry and lyrics).

Maybe its because I know that they way my loved ones show that they care is because the question me. They care enough to confront me, to meddle, to ask, to let me rant and help me find my way to the choice that's best for me. So even in the most enabling and unhealthy fics I read, I always want that. The "I will side with you, always, but I want you to know my side too." The vulnerability of opening up and showing what the implications are. The messy fights, the yelling, the poking at soft spots is something I will always want to see.

Like one of my fav scenes is when JC confronts WWX before they decide to stage the fight for this reason! Like you see where their priorities lie and that they both have valid perspectives for the positions they're in but they come to the slow realization that they can't have it all. And WWX I think does want to leave, he doesn't want to pretend he's okay and he doesn't want to spend a second more fronting for the sake of YMJ because he's done enough, fulfilled his debts and he wants a little break before even attempting to come back home (Burial Mounds doesn't sound like a good long-term solution but I also don't think he expected to live long).

LXC is definitely an enabler but I think it's also similar to JYL's response to trauma. And he does like so much for LWJ because he put all his love for his parents and family on his brother (gives me a lot of Itachi and Sasuke vibes but less extreme and with less trauma). So, similar to JC and WWX, when LWJ tells him something in a sure tone, LXC believes it.

Like considering demonic cultivation and resentful energy are so harmful (look at the Nies), it would be like if you're brother came to you and told you that he did some crack and now has superpowers after disappearing for months and you believe him because if WWX told JC the stars were falling, JC would have run for cover without looking at the sky. Like, the amount this man trusts WWX is insane. It might have been despiration but also he knows if anyone can do it, it's his Shixiong. And every scene, he asks, he asks WWX to clarify, to let him know, to let him and I just can't with these boys.

Wang Zhuocheng will always impress me because this was essentially his break out role! And the intro scene where LJY mentions that JC killed WWX so why is he checking in MXY? The flashbacks with his family and how much he yearns to keep them together but we know that its gonna fall apart! And his interactions with Jin Ling (who also did an amazing job in the role) were perfect despite the actors being like one year apart in age! Just all of it was so good and I will never not be impressed!

Sorry for the essays! Just really excited about the Untamed and I have a lot to gush about.

this has been in my inbox for ages bc i just kept reading it over and over because op. (kisses your brain) Wow. your meta is actually so fucking good and i am sliding you five american dollars to continue sending me essays about anything and nothing

your characterization (perception of their characterization??) lines up perfectly with mine and tbh you put it in better words than i could. i just. i dont even have words for this bc im just In Awe that someone can word this good

im gonna post this without much comment and followers…..begging u to read this…..op’s brain is so so so big and i adore every single thing about this little essay

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vrishchikawrites · 2 years

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Hello Dee! I hope you're doing well. In regards to the novel ending, do you think LWJ jumping from extremes in terms of repression/obedience to extreme devotion is healthy? Even if prioritizing the cultivation world was unhealthy, pulling a 180 and just fucking off seems extreme especially in the case of recent political breakthroughs + LXC.

I don't know if I'm expressing this correctly but I wonder whether LWJ's single minded devotion and love for WWX as a trope is unhealthy. LWJ’s has this "WWX,right or wrong” attitude, which seems really maladaptive and similar to his rigidity about The Rules/Morality, not even including his trauma about WWX's death. His upbringing and values are important to him, so maybe it's better if he stays with the Lan and finds a way to make the rules work without adhering to them instead of spending his days wandering around with WWX. Because his upbringing and his values are important to him, and I don’t want him to just chuck those out the window for the sake of love. So much of Wangxian's relationship is compromising and coming to an understanding about each other, their lifestyles, values and so forth. Maybe I'm misunderstanding the novel but it felt a lot like abandoning the rest of the world because all we need is each other.

Similarly, WWX hasn't had time to explore his queer identity as a bisexual either. He was dead for 13 years and BAM he is alive! He doesn't get to explore the world, come to terms with anything and he's in a relationship with his soulmate. I was hoping to ask you for your perspective as I'm having trouble coming to terms with some aspects of both the novel and CQL. I feel like I have plot holes LOL

Thank you!

I don't mean to offend but you need to reread MDZS. There are several nuances you have missed, based on what you have asked. Let's break this down-

Firstly this implies that the change was abrupt. It never was. There's a reason why I and a few others say LWJ has the most character development of them all.

LWJ starts off as the perfect Lan. LQR's model student who does no wrong. We see him struggle between to maintain his composure and poise while dealing with an intense attraction to a mischievous and attractive boy.

LWJ struggles and pushes away and keeps doing that. Then he sees WWX act heroically during the Wen Indoctrination arc consistently and that attraction morphs into something deeper. That comes with the knowledge of WWX's character.

Despite this, LWJ is harshly critical of WWX, going as far to fight and berate him in public during the SSC because he thinks WWX is wrong. He is following all of his teachings and knowledge here. SSC lasts for a few years, they are clashing constantly on the topic of guidao. But during the Yunmeng meeting, LWJ appears a tad bit softer. He doesn't stop questioning WWX but he has clearly started to questioning himself as well, started to think whether he may be missing something.

Then, WWX rescues the Wens, LWJ sees how the major sects act, he tries to correct slander against WWX, he tries to defend WQ and WN, and sees how futile it all is.

LWJ witnesses it all.

And it culminates in the Nightless City, where he finally acts. He rescues WWX and goes back to accept his punishment. He says that whether it is right or wrong, he doesn't know, but he is willing to take punishment alongside WWX anyways.

This isn't just a symptom of love as most people take it. It is him having a moral dilemma. He knows WWX is in the right. He has seen the Wens and has seen how everyone acted post SSC. He knows who is right and wrong but he is still wavering a bit, uncertain. Which is where you comment about 'WWX - right or wrong' misses the mark entirely. The entire novel is essentially saying WWX is right, was right, catch up will you?

Then.

EXR 112 - Wangxian Part 2

Luo QingYang explained to her husband patiently, “This HanGuang-Jun is different from the other famous cultivators. He always appears wherever the chaos is. As long as there’s a haunting, no matter the level of the night-hunt’s target or if he’d receive credit, he’d always provide assistance.”

What do we know of LWJ in the intervening years after he recovers from the punishment? He doesn't attend any major sect event, even though he is sect heir. Unlike virtually any other sect cultivator, LWJ roams the lands and helps ordinary people in need without the need or expectation of anything in return. This isn't a symptom of love for WWX either. He isn't 'going where chaos is' to look for WWX, he is going to help.

Because as the novel states clearly, Sects don't.

WWX's death and his subsequent grief gives him clarity and when he is ready to move forward, he does what he feels is right. He isn't repressed or unnecessarily obedient. We see it in the AD extra when LWJ continues to care and raise LSZ with gentle affection. He piles rabbits on LSZ despite LXC telling him that was unwise. It is a small but meaningful glimpse of LWJ doing things his own way.

LWJ has never prioritised the cultivation world, he is even less likely to do so after WWX dies.

So, your comment about him doing a 180 and just fucking off is... missing a lot of sutble growth.

This implies that LWJ didn't spend a substantial part of his time away from the sect doing his own thing during the intervening years.

But he did. In fact, it is roaming around with LWJ that makes WWX realize that just nighthunting and helping others is a little too easy and returning home is a bit difficult. If anything, it is LWJ's tendency to wander about, not WWX's.

His upbringing and values aren't compromised by his love for WWX or his marriage to him. That is the point. When everyone one loses sight of what is righteous and just, WWX and LWJ stand has the moral ideals in contrast to the Cultivation World. The entire novel is essentially hammering this point home with almost every sentence. WWX is drawn to LWJ because he is the only one in the novel to match his moral core and LWJ is drawn to WWX because WWX is the only one in the novel who has lived up to his morals and never compromised on them.

That is the point. He's not chucking anything out of the window. He is bringing the original intentions behind of all of the rules about righteousness and morality back home with him.

By marrying the only person who actually adhered to them.

Think about Wangxian for a small moment.

Wei Wuxian - street orphan taken in by a sect, raised under stressful circumstances, gives up his core, is tossed into a wretched place and forced to survive conditions that are so bad, MXTX couldn't bring herself to write it. He fights a war, is persecuted for saving people, dies, and is resurrected, and tossed into the cultivation world's mess again.

Lan Wangji - Has to deal with war, loss, the burning of CR, has to deal with the cultivation world turning on someone righteous that he loves, has to face people he loves dying, and then sees WWX resurrected and then has to protect WWX from the cultivation world before the past can repeat himself.

You're telling me that these two people don't deserve to take a break away from responsibilities and live in semi-retirement? 'Semi' being the key word here since they still return to CR, teach, and lead nighthunts? They've done more for the cultivation world and their families than people do in their lifetimes already.

You realize that they were barely twenty when the war ended? That WWX was barely a young adult when he died after being horribly persecuted? That LWJ was barely a young adult when he faced the loss of WWX, a whipping that nearly killed him, and an orphan that was a constant reminder of the cultivation world and his clan's failure?

An orphan that he raised so well that WWX was impressed at first glance?

The cultivation world took a lot from them, nonny. More than anyone can rightfully demand. The least it owes them is letting them live a life of peace as a married pair.

As for the whole 'bi identity thing' - when love finds you and it is good, you don't put it on the shelf and go look at other products first just to see if there's a better offer out there. Love isn't a shopping spree and to consider it such is very naive. There's no need to explore the 'bi identity' or the world. Why would he? All WWX has ever needed in his life is someone to honestly stand by his side and understand his core. If he wants to wander about for a bit, he can. If he wants to laze about in CR every day, he can.

This 'wander to find your true self' concept sounds very pretty but it isn't really that effective, regardless of what the movies tell you. Marriage is only a shackle if you marry the wrong person.

WWX married the right person and he is free. He is absolutely untouchable and incandescently happy.

And LWJ? ARE YOU KIDDING? He has everything he wants right at his fingertips. His family is safe, LXC will recover, LQR is still going strong, unlike nearly every sect, GSL is thriving, his reputation remains unmarred, he is loaded, the child he raised is the most promising Lan disciple, his true love is back and practically lives in his lap (do you know how many times LWJ pulls WWX onto his lap for cuddles??)

The man's living a dream life.

As for everyone else? Who TF cares about privileged people in power that let the slaughter of three clans (at least) happen and turned a blind eye towards it?

Who are you actually sympathizing with here? Does anyone outside the juniors deserve Wangxian's care?

Reread the book.

#reader asks #re: wangxian #re: lwj #re: wwx

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angstymdzsthoughts · 3 years

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rather than 33 lashes because there /is/ a possibility that their second jade might never recover/not survive, the elders + lqr decided instead to erase wwx from lwj's memories as punishment.

if he tries to recall a memory where wwx was supposed to be present, he will only remember being alone (e.g. he was alone in the library pavilion when wwx copied lines, he was alone when he fought the xuanwu, etc.) or he will remember others but not wwx (e.g. cloud recesses lectures, wen sect indoctrination, etc.) or he will not remember it at all (e.g. first meeting, rabbit-giving, wangxian, first kiss, etc.).

this plan is fool-proof in the eyes of the lans as no one will be able to refute lwj's new set of memories. jc doesn't want anything to do with anything wwx-related and nhs will not be able to correct some of it because they don't interact at all. no one will be able to confirm that he actually had a positive bond with wwx because cultivators have seen how they interacted during the ssc (i.e. almost always arguing). and lastly, wwx is the yiling patriach ("do not befriend evil"). lwj is manipulated into thinking that wwx is only ever the demonic cultivator yiling patriach.

the lans definitely prepared for this array/ritual. they sealed lwj's spiritual energy so that he could not fight any of them and then tied him up so that he could not escape. when this was activated, the last thing lwj did was glare at lxc for his betrayal before falling into a deep sleep (so that he could not disrupt the process and that it takes energy). lxc knows that his brother treasures these memories and that wwx has only ever been the one other person who made lwj happy besides their mother but he ultimately allowed this punishment because of wwx's harsh rejections of lwj's feelings. when lwj wakes up a few days or so after the bm siege (rip a-yuan let's hope somebody else finds you and adopts you), lxc couldn't help but feel deeply guilty because his brother once again looks like a doll, someone perfect but hollow. and it that moment, lxc knew that wwx is the only one who reminded lwj that he's an imperfect person and not just a second jade of lan. lxc will forever carry this guilt and no amount of coaxing will ever bring back the lwj who met and loved wwx.

#lack of reply #lan wangji #lan xichen #amnesia #sort of?#The Lan Clan are Assholes #Twin Jades #mdzs

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crossdressingdeath · 3 years

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tbh i think one of the biggest issues in mdzs is false neutrality. standing aside while other sects get eaten, looking away when someone is dragged to be sacrificed, giving the reigns of post-war handling of prisoners aside entirely. equating a broken arm to a pierced gut, saying an impulsive, regretted moment of self sacrifice is the same as one deliberated upon. sect loyalty to innocent lives. looking away when xy was pardoned to not create any rifts. i think a lot of the time 1/6

theres reasonings! understandable but not excusable reasonings as to why inaction or insistence on compromise/peace/”neutrality” was preferable than picking a stance. but inaction doesnt make things inexcusable, ignorance is not innocence, and to be neutral is to be complicit, even if the outcome wasnt what they chose. a lot of the time theyre not to blame for the outcomes but that doesnt mean theyre not at fault. imo the ones who get it the harshest are the most neutral characters no matter 2/6

how good their intentions are. jyl, jzx, lxc i feel got it the worst? jzx looked away and ignored the problem until it blew up in his face. jyl stood aside and tried to be “neutral” for so long that her actions devolved the situation. lxc worked to compromise between 3zun when instead a better course of action mightve been to firmly get them to separate instead (even tho nmj nd jgy did choose to go for the brotherhood too). like its not like any are to /blame/ for their choices, but its 3/6

something to think about ig. lost my train of thought but mostly i was just thinking about how “staying out of it” or “not favoring any side or the other” inevitably favors one side. irl when someone says “i stay out of politics/buzzword issues” its bc they can afford to, their inaction favoring the oppressing side. when someone is ignorant of issues that doesnt mean theyre to blame for that but that they need to dig deeper into the world around them. 4/6

tho like ngl i kinda :/ a little at jyl and lxc because i get what they were trying to do but man… jzx has the excuse of just being really out of the loop for things but jyl is there to see with her own eyes the imbalance between what wwx and jc says, lxc probably couldve been more concerned about Clan Decimater xy getting into jgs’s graces over causing trouble for jgy. not his own sect but, idk, i keep thinking about it to pre ssc when the bigger sects all looked away from the smaller sects 5/6

this is a really long chain of asks, sorry about that, but yeah i meant to point out earlier how its not just an in-universe problem but also from a fandom perspective. never gonna get over how ppl are like “jc and wwx have equal love bc they made equal sacrifices!” when its clear that its not equal, that jc once loved and then regretted while wwx loved and refused to regret or think on it further. jyl choosing wwx once doesnt absolve her choosing jc every other time :/ 6/6

Yeah, I think a good chunk of MDZS revolves around how there comes a point where you can’t be neutral, because even trying to be is in and of itself favouring one side or the other. In MDZS attempted neutrality ranges from sympathetic (the other sects not fighting the Wens straight away because they didn’t think they could win a fight and hoped that if they stayed out of it the Wens would leave them alone) to considerably less so (the sects letting JGS keep XY alive and active even after everything he did so that they didn’t rock the boat, JYL enabling JC’s abuse because he might get annoyed at her if she stepped in on WWX’s behalf), but it’s always... a problem. People very much simplify everything that happens down to equal conflicts and equal relationships, but I don’t think there’s a single truly equal conflict in this entire novel; they’re all the sort of conflict where staying neutral is taking the side of the more powerful party, because the weaker party can’t win without help.

#mdzs #anon #asks

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grewlikefancyflowers · 3 years

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I never understood people when they say The war would have been won without WWX when in reality those so called rightous cultivators we're getting played like a fiddle with the Wen Sect. It like without Naruto the fourth great ninja war or Harry Potter and the battle of Hogwarts would have lost with our main Protagonist.

I think Wen Rouhen only intended to destroy the Jiang Sect and Jin Sect and only damage Cloud Recess because The Nie Wen and Lan are around the same era or so with the Jiang and Jin coming only recently. I think the Wen Sect didn't start with their tyranny recently but started a few generation back with Wen Rouhen taking it into effect later.

The only downfall of Wen Rouhen had been WWX because he did not calculate the head disciple into the equation.

I think they probably could have eventually won the war without WWX, with Jin, Jiang, Nie and Lan united against the Wens, but it's definitely the case that WWX's abilities were a turning point in the SSC - in chapter 48, we see some characters in a flashback being bitter because they're struggling, while the Jiang sect has it easy due to WWX's powers, so it's undeniable that he made a significant difference. Both WWX's return, and the death of Wen Xu by NMJ were significant contributors, prior to that it was considered a bit of a joke.

As for Wen Rouhan, of course not taking WWX into the equation was part of his downfall, although I also think the fall of Lotus Pier wasn't something he particularly anticipated either.

When the Wens originally attacked, it was to set up a supervision office, they did not necessarily have the intention of destroying the whole sect, and it was in fact YZY and WLJ setting each other off that set that chain of events into motion. Prior to this, the Jiang sect's policy towards the Wens boiled down to 'do as they say and don't piss them off' - the Wen clan dictated when they could nighthunt, could demand they send their disciples for indoctrination, take their swords, the Jiang clan went along with all of this, until YZY felt personally affronted by WLJ.

If Lotus Pier hadn't been destroyed, and the Jiang parents killed, they probably would never have united against the Wen sect in the first place, neither JFM or YZY expressed any intention to fight back.

The Wens overall seemed less interested in wiping out other sects, and in just keeping them under control - when they attacked the Lan sect, they only killed QHJ, not any other disciples. Personally, I think their motivations for attacking the Cloud Recesses was in large part to do with LQR's lectures - teaching disciples of other sects probably gave them more influence and prestige than the Wen sect was comfortable with. With I supposed is why they particularly wanted to burn the library, and why it was so important that LXC get away with the sect's texts.

#mdzs

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vrishchikawrites · 3 years

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Thing is that during the war, you are a mass murderer. Even Mo dao user, spiritual dao users, rogue cultivators who aided in SSC who killed the Wens likely killed innocents.

Nobody is innocent. Stop calling everyone morally gray and mass murderer because your favorite lead or participated in the siege. They’re not morally gray for being mass murderer murdering innocent in the middle of the war.

Shit happens. WWX is not innocent, neither is JC and everyone who participated in the war who are not babies or toddlers or elderly and civilians in the war. Calling someone mass murderer because they have high body counts and raise corpses like guys. Everyone kills in the war.

I think there is a famous saying there is no such things as good guys going into the war. Everyone becomes the bad guys because it is war, it does not benefit anyone who participate, neither does it benefit the innocents. Just because we see WWX saying he raised a lot of corpse armies doesn’t make him the most innocent or vile war criminal. We don’t know how many people killed by JC, LXC, LWJ, NMJ who are also the forces in the front lines of the war. It must take A LOT of cultivators and killings to be able to Kill WRH and Wen Xu! Did it not say Wen sect is the strongest and most prosperous sect? Do you think they just disappeared into thin air? Ridiculous.

If everyone in MDZS is grey because they participated in the war, then every historical war fiction contains if grey characters becayse they are soldiers of war. Yet I don’t think I see the same standard applies.

The issue is that they consider SSC campaign a war but they don't think siege is a war. Taking three hundred cultivators to ambush a single person (with tactic permission from the sect leader) is provocation. Asking a single man without most of his tools to back down in the face of 300 enemy combatants is demanding the man to surrender.

Pledging to end someone or a group of people is a declaration of war. The moment they declared they would be laying siege on the mountains (going against their word as WWX rightfully points out) WWX has all the right in the world to retaliate with all of his power. That's not murder, that's the sects repeatedly provoking war and WWX deciding to retaliate.

No one's hands are clean but war gives murder legitimacy like nothing else does. Going to war and actions committed during war are also considered honorable. That mentality still lingers but it was certainly very prominent even a hundred years ago.

That's why people consider WWX mass murderer and not anyone else. You bet LWJ killed thousands of people during those two years of active fighting too. But say one word about him being less than honorable, him also being a mass murderer, and we'll have a fight. Because that was war. That was them retaliating against the injustice of the Wens.

But the pledge conference and the first BM siege (both acts of war) aren't considered war for some reason. WWX is in the same position that the sects were in when they started the Sunshot Campaign (pushed into a corner, attacked repeatedly, threatened by a powerful enemy, forced to protect innocents). The sects, on the other hand, are now in the position the Wens formally occupied. They're the aggressors. They carelessly abused and tormented innocent people. They killed the remanents indiscriminately.

When WWX uses all of his power to retaliate against an aggressive force that's not willing to give an inch, he's a mass murderer? Not a man fighting a war?

Nice.

You're right. These people need to paint everyone with the same brush or stop using different labels to define the same actions.

What was WWX supposed to do? Sacrifice himself and the innocents to appeace the sects?

#reader asks #salty

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vrishchikawrites · 3 years

Text

Novel quotes that were sitting in my drafts and my thoughts

It is canon that JC’s own people are afraid of approaching him with their concerns. The people of his territory don’t approach the Jiangs for help unless the matter is deadly. This is supported by novel text. This is the state of YungmengJiang after it is one of the remaining three great sects, an economic, political, and martial powerhouse.

Ch 92 - Longing Part 3 (Exiled Rebels translation)

The owner, “That I’m not so sure about. Anyways, the temple’s quite popular. In Yunping City, no matter what someone runs into, we’d all go there and pray for the Guanyin’s protection. I sometimes go there and light a few sticks of incense too.”

Wei WuXian asked, “Then why don’t you go find the cultivational sect that’s in charge of this region?”

He only remembered after he asked. Wasn’t the cultivational sect in charge of this region precisely the YunmengJiang Sect?

Yet, the owner curled her lips, “Go find them? How dare we?”

Wei WuXian, “Oh? Why not?”

The owner, “Young Masters, you’re not from Yunping City so you don’t know. The Jiang Sect is responsible for all of us along the Yunmeng area. The Sect Leader’s got quite a bad temper. It’s almost frightening. His subordinate’s said so a long time ago. Only one sect is in charge of such a large area. Each day, there are almost a hundred cases of small ghosts or other creatures pulling pranks on the living and all that. If every single small thing had to be dealt with immediately, would there be enough time and energy? Those that don’t kill anyone aren’t malign spirits, and we’re not supposed to disturb them with trivial matters that aren’t malign spirits.” She complained, “What is this supposed to mean? Wouldn’t it be too late if we waited until somebody’s died to find them?!

No way would WWX let a his sect be actively feared by people they are supposed to protect.

There are a few other examples that I can’t really spend time to find. There was no lack of economic resources at this point. I don’t think there was any sort of disadvantage even after the SSC, because they would’ve gotten back their money after it and divided Wen assets among themselves. Yungmeng would have gotten a fair share of the plunder because it was one of the main sects active in the war.

JC had every opportunity at this point to say, ‘look we owe these particular Wens a life debt.’ That’s all he has to say to have honor on his side. They don’t need to risk anything because even JGS wouldn’t be able to say anything against a debt of honor. NMJ and LXC would both support him.

JGS was only able to get so far because JC played right into his hands. There are several scenes with JC letting his anger and envy get the best of him. One in particular, where some cultivators gossip that people only joined YunmengJiang because of WWX and his power. JC refused to speak up as a direct response to that.

(WWX has already proven he doesn’t forget about debts)

That very same conversation indicates that by the time Pheonix Mountain situation happened, YunmengJiang was already in a good position. JGS didn’t take advantage of YMJ’s economic and martial weakness (the text indicates that they were sufficiently recovered by this point if i’m not mistaken). In fact, YMJ received a big influx of seasoned cultivators just after this incident and before WWX’s defection. He took advantage of JC’s insecurities and his willingness to cast WWX aside if it benefited his sect.

Jin GuangShan, “Sect Leader Jiang, Wei Ying is your right-hand man. You value him a lot. All of us know this. However, on the other hand, it’s hard to tell whether or not he actually respects you. In any case, I’ve been a sect leader for so many years and I’ve never seen the servant of any sect dare be so arrogant, so proud. Have you heard what they say outside? Things like how during the Sunshot Campaign the victories of the YunmengJiang Sect were all because of Wei WuXian alone—what nonsense!”

Going further back, my original point was - there was a foreshadowing of their ideological differences way back in the Dusk-Creek mountain incident.

Ch 52 - Courage Part 2 (Exiled Rebels translation)

Wei WuXian, “It’s alright if he hates me—I don’t hate him. I’ll get him onto my back the second I get hold of him. Could he possibly choke me to death while on my back?”

Jiang Cheng warned, “We aren’t even able to care for ourselves; how do we have the time to care about the trivialities of others?”

Wei WuXian, “First, this isn’t a triviality. Second, things like this, somebody will have to care about them, sooner or later!”

WWX’s first instinct is to help people. JC’s first instinct is to protect themselves. This keeps on happening again and again.

When they returned to the Lotus Pier, JC scolded WWX for trying to play the hero and was scolded by his own father to reconsider the words. (This wasn’t favoritism, this was a dad telling his son that scolding someone for saving people’s lives isn’t the right thing to do and he should consider his words)

Both of these incidences are just few of the many examples scattered throughout the novel. These are possibly the earliest indications of their ideologies being materially different. WWX would be an excellent second hand but he’s no Wen Zhuliu. If his leader doesn’t live up to his expectations of morality and righteousness, he isn’t going to stay. He may linger for a long while but eventually he’ll start to feel complicit and would want to take a different path. He fell in love with LWJ because LWJ was righteous and morally superior to others in the novel, after all.

So to conclude - JC actually didn’t want to help the Wens, text clearly states he hated them. This man planned and lead a siege even after seeing a small child at the BM.

YMJ wasn’t actually in that bad a state. It was recovering but so were the Jins. They didn’t get away from the war unscathed. YMJ had money and several new, trained cultivators.

Bear in mind, during their staged fight, JC gutted WWX while WWX broke his arm. As in, his intestines legit fell out. The fact that he recovered quickly doesn’t matter. It was a near fatal wound and WWX has very few resources at his disposal. He was living in near poverty. That trip to the BM is a grace that JC could give without spending too much effort.

idk if I have expressed my point properly. But it covers as many points as I can recall off the top of my head. Unless JC’s character changed in some significant ways, I still think they would eventually have a falling out. The are examples littered throughout the novel about their core ideals, their very character clashing in significant ways.

#anti jiang cheng #repost on the side blog

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crossdressingdeath · 3 years

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(1/12) So a while ago I *think* someone on your blog brought up an idea making JYL take sides in a post-SSC AU where neither JC nor WWX lost their cores, WWX wanted to marry LWJ, and JC refused. I've been thinking about this in more detail, and I am very unlikely to write it, but I still wanted my thoughts to be Out There (and I don't do twitter so I can't make it a twitter fic), and I hoped you would enjoy the idea as well.

(2/12) Wen remnants are not an issue bc idk since JC didn't get captured and lose his core, WN couldn't have connected with WWX in the aftermath of that, so he tries helping WWX in a different way that ends up with WQ going with him, her branch splitting off and fighting with the SSC, and the sects agreeing to (and actually doing so, supported by both LXC and NMJ) leave them alone afterwards.

(3/12) Post-war, JYL married JZX, leaving WWX and JC alone together. WWX starts night-hunting a lot bc he finds he doesn't actually want to spend that much time with JC without a buffer. He ends up teaming up with LWJ a lot, who still goes where the chaos is, and obviously falls in love with him. They confess, are very happy, and go to LXC, who is very happy.

(4/12) Then LXC approaches JC about a marriage. JC is not happy. JC is like, they're both men! you think that's acceptable? no. and even if it were acceptable, WWX is my 2IC, I need him here. if he wants to get married, I can find him a woman who will stay with the Jiang.

(5/12) LXC is a little shellshocked, goes to tell WWX and LWJ what happened. WWX goes to ask JC what the fuck. JC goes off on a rant, tells WWX he promised to stand by him so he has to stay *home*, with JC. he's not allowed to just *leave*. does he seriously want to abandon the sect that took him in off the streets and raised him and taught him?

(6/12) and what, does he think LWJ will be willing to marry into the Jiang, for *WWX*? the Lans would never go for their sect heir leaving the sect to marry someone of lesser status. and besides, Lotus Pier is still rebuilding, so the Jiang wouldn't be able to put together a proper bride price for the second jade of Lan. it's not going to happen.

(7/12) WWX, depressed, goes to JYL for comfort. JYL is shocked at JC's decision but not sure how to handle it. JZX very awkwardly tries to comfort WWX, starts establishing himself as best brother. Eventually WWX goes back to Lotus Pier because he *is* loyal, but he's torn between nighthunting and maybe encountering LWJ again, which would be painful, or staying in Lotus Pier with JC, which is also painful.

(8/12) They stay in this holding pattern for a while until the next discussion conference, when LQR corners WWX to be angry at him for breaking LWJ's heart. WWX, depressed and angry himself but still polite because he *doesn't* badmouth JC in public, explains that his sect leader is unable to spare him and they could not ask the Lan to spare LWJ, everything JC ranted to him about, etc.

(9/12) LQR, who had basically convinced himself that JC would only have said no if WWX hadn't actually wanted the marriage (because why the hell else would he turn down a great match and good alliance like that) and that WWX had just been playing with LWJ, is shocked. he can see really clearly that WWX is miserable but filial, and JC really is the problem here. LQR now respects WWX's filial piety, is angry that he respects anything about WWX, and still wants to make his nephew happy.

(10/12) Cue a pro-marriage conspiracy. JYL has been writing back and forth with LXC about options, so LQR joins their discussions. NHS, who heard about what happened and likes WWX way more than JC, invites himself along. JZX offers the support of the Jin, because he's finding he likes one BIL much better than the other (and JGS is out of the picture somehow; maybe JGY got fed up and murdered him already) and it would make JYL happy if WWX were happy.

(11/12) So while LWJ is miserably fighting chaos somewhere and WWX goes to visit the Wens and daydream about him and LWJ adopting a-Yuan and giving him a good future, everyone else goes to confront JC. LQR emphasizes the match and the alliance, JZX agrees it would be good for Lotus Pier and the post-SSC political landscape generally.

(12/12) NHS pokes at JC's insecurities and is like, WWX is indispensable here? you are incapable of functioning without him? and by the way, that promise you want to hold him to -- didn't he say that he would support you like his father did yours? didn't his father *also* leave to get married? and the whole time, JYL is sitting there, very obviously taking WWX's side. JC caves, because of course he does. WWX and LWJ get to get married and adopt a-Yuan and WWX only rarely has to see JC again.

Oh, that’s fun. I especially like the bit where NHS uses JC’s pride against him by pointedly calling him out on being incapable of functioning without WWX. Very good politicking. I’m imagining NHS with all wide-eyed innocence just being like “Oh? You truly can’t manage without WWX’s help? Weren’t you trained to run a sect? Can’t you find a new second-in-command for the sake of your brother’s happiness?” and basically just pushing and pushing until JC has to either let WWX go or admit that he’s incapable of doing his job without a loyal mega-genius doing most of the work for him.

#mdzs #cql #grapehate #rynne #asks

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crossdressingdeath · 3 years

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I can't say that there's much about CQL that I care too much for, but 1 thing that I really like is (it's been a while since I watched it so my memory might be foggy) the scene where LWJ is kneeling in the snow holding the cane after his visit to Yiling. It implies that LWJ did say something in WWX and the remnants favor and was punished for it. Either as a warning in a "this is what will happen if you stray again" or they were actively deciding whether to physically punish him as he knelt outside. It would also make some sort of sense on why he didn't seek WWX out anytime after the Yiling visit if he was on a tighter leash. I like using this in my fics when dealing with the time between his visit and the 1 month celebration.

This blank space in LWJs story is both fun and frustrating. Fun cause a fic writer can do so much here writing from his pov. Frustrating cause like bro... What were you doing whilst the love of your life was raising a child on Haunted Corpse Mountain? He specifically sought out WWX 3 times after the SSC and eventually committed treason for him, even if the last one was more impulsive IMO this scenario seems in line with what LWJ would do and start him on the path of questioning things he had taken for granted as true

I guess? But also I’m... not sure I actually like it. See, it kind of gives this sense that LWJ is being punished for associating with WWX. Like, that is pushed so hard in CQL, “Do not associate with evil” and all that. But that’s not the vibe I got from the novel. LWJ was punished for his actions in relation to WWX, yes, and LXC and LQR both blame WWX for “corrupting” LWJ, but I never got the sense that LWJ was being punished for caring about WWX. He was punished for attacking his elders, not because he attacked them for WWX. And that feels important to me? Like, LWJ’s family doesn’t approve of his relationship with WWX but they accept it and don’t punish him for it. I don’t know, maybe I’m just being queer, but a gay man in a society that is explicitly homophobic never getting punished for his love for and later relationship with another man even when he’s punished for the (genuinely and understandably Very Much Not Allowed) things he does because of those feelings feels important. LWJ gets punished, but not because he’s in love with WWX; it’s because his love for WWX leads him to commit treason. WWX is blamed for that, but he’s not actually the reason LWJ is being punished. Meanwhile in CQL... yeah, LWJ is very much being punished for his association with WWX, especially if you’re right and in the scene with the cane he’s being punished for arguing in WWX’s defence. I got the sense that the reason why any attempt LWJ made to argue for WWX and the Wens never comes up is because the Lans kept it quiet because LWJ would be in deep shit if it came out that he’d tried to protect the Yiling Patriarch. No one knows that LWJ was whipped for fighting his own elders to protect WWX (or even that he was whipped at all, as far as I remember) because again, the Lans protected him. There were consequences, but the Lan sect very much did close ranks around him and defend him from what would happen if the sects found out that he was in love with and had tried to help the Yiling Patriarch. Again, maybe this is me being queer, but the idea of a group punishing a member of that group for their actual wrongdoings but also not letting them be punished by an unfair and bigoted world for something they did out of love and that didn’t do any serious or lasting harm (sect leader’s brother or no, if LWJ had done serious and/or permanent damage to the elders he would’ve been in even deeper shit than he was) feels really really important. So CQL changing that and making it clear that LWJ is being punished for his feelings for WWX with the repeated “Do not associate with evil” line and if I remember right removing the fight with the elders from the story... in a version of the story that censors the gay relationship and makes it just Straight With Subtext... well, I do not like that. To make it a little more blatant, I’m pretty sure the “Do not associate with evil” rule only appears in CQL. It may exist in MDZS, but it never comes up.

The blank space in LWJ’s timeline between visits to the Burial Mounds is interesting, and there’s a lot you can do with it, but... making it so that the Lan sect, the sect that defended him from the consequences the other sects would make him face for being in love with WWX and helped raise WWX and LWJ’s kinda-sorta son and sheltered WWX when LWJ brought him back to the Cloud Recesses (even if most of them didn’t know about those two things) and accepted LWJ’s marriage even though they really didn’t like WWX, kept him from helping the Wens and punished him for trying to defend the man he loved isn’t exactly how I’d do it. Especially since there isn’t actually anything suggesting that LWJ was punished for going to Yiling in the book, mostly because... well, why would he be, there’s no rule against it and no mention of him being ordered to stay away from Yiling or WWX, and there’s no word about a rule against trying to defend someone from accusations (except the rule against lying, which the Lans know him well enough to know he wouldn’t do; at worst they’ll assume that he’s letting WWX lie to him and letting himself be convinced that the Evil Yiling Patriarch isn’t actually evil). At this point LWJ has done nothing worthy of punishment. LWJ doesn’t have to be punished for being in love with WWX to start questioning what he was raised to believe, he starts questioning what he was raised to believe because WWX dies! LWJ loves him and believes in his moral compass and he dies anyway! Righteousness alone isn’t enough, because WWX was one of the most righteous people LWJ knew and the sects killed him! So actually, making it so that he reconsiders what he’s learned when it negatively affects him instead of because he tried every rule-abiding method he could think of to help WWX and it did nothing actually weakens his character a bit. By the time he’s committing treason for WWX he’s started to change; he’s given up on following the rules and is willing to do whatever it takes to save the person he loves, and even then it’s not enough. That’s what changes him, not his punishment. It’s the realisation that the sects are not righteous, at least not when acting as a collective with mob mentality in full swing. Every individual Lan we meet is righteous! But only as individuals. As a group they’re just as bad as everyone else.

...This is getting away from me a bit. I guess what I’m trying to say is that while I see your point I think the scene where LWJ is punished with having to hold that cane up is just another aspect of CQL shifting from LWJ being punished for going against his sect’s rules to LWJ getting punished for his feelings for WWX, which wouldn’t be a good look even without the censoring of any aspect that was explicitly gay, so I find it hard to look at it in any sort of positive way.

Also, it’s not as fun as handstands.

#mdzs vs cql #lan wangji #what could wyb not do handstands or something? you've got wires #was it too undignified? if so: COWARDS #the lan sect can be a little undignified #as a treat #anon #asks

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crossdressingdeath · 3 years

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The argument that JC couldn’t do anything to help WWX because of politics kinda falls flat in my opinion because, logically, getting rid of JGS and securing allies in the other sects would have been better. With JYL marrying JXZ, he already had a strong alliance once JZX became sect leader.

All he had to do was be like “I am so sorry for WWX rude actions, but I owe these Wens for saving my life and getting my parents remains. I propose that this matter be investigated by an impartial party/members of other sects”.

With the implications that the other sects didn’t know it was only civilians, and the fact the the Jin sect hadn’t participated as much as the sects in the SSC, and their whole ‘doing everything the Wen sect did but politely’ (such as branding elderly and children)... it wouldn’t look good. Especially when the sects are always ready to turn against someone easily.

And you know LWJ would be part of the group of impartial members. Probably at the Jin sect’s request because he ‘hates WWX’ and ‘does not approve of anything WWX does’.

It wouldn’t go over super smoothly, but it would work out for the most part. JC would be considered a hero, would still have his super powerful necromancer, and would have a brother-in-law as a sect leader with the respect and trust of the other sect leaders.

Like yeah, there will still be some drama here and there, but JC wouldn’t be known as that easily manipulated, aggressive sect leader that most people want to avoid, who is he’s kinda obsessed with his former shixiong.

I always get the impression that when people say JC couldn’t help WWX Because Politics they don’t realize that what they’re really saying is “JC is so bad at his job that he couldn’t see literally the easiest and most obvious solution”.

Because you’re right; by standing up for his brother and bringing up the massive debt he owes WN and WQ, JC could’ve solved the whole issue with minimum difficulty. There’s always this sense with people talking about how hard it would be for JC to fix this that they haven’t considered that... everything we know about LXC and NMJ suggests that if they were given reason to suspect that innocent civilians who did fight against WRH in the one small way they could, they would have investigated. Remember, the entire reason NMJ says that the Wen remnants are their enemies is because he thinks they didn’t care to try to stop WRH; it’s not a great argument anyway (not everyone has the power to fight a dictator, Da-ge!), but if given proof that they did try to fight back and help the sects I’m fairly sure he would’ve pushed for at least something less severe than “kill them all down to the youngest child”. JC didn’t try to help WWX, he just let JGS lead him around by the nose. The politics of the whole situation weren’t simple, but they were nowhere near as complicated and hard to navigate as the JC stans keep arguing they were.

#mdzs #cql #grapehate #anon #asks

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