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goodqueenaly · 13 days

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I wonder whether GRRM might use the marriage of Margaret of Anjou to Henry VI of England as partial inspiration for the betrothal and marriage of Myriah Martell to the future King Daeron II.

I certainly believe, after all, that GRRM has used, and will use, Henry VI as an inspiration for King Baelor (in addition, of course, to the author’s explicitly stated point of reference for the septon-king, Louis IX of France). Both kings had succeeded conquering warriors who had themselves looked to make good on ancestral dynastic claims to foreign kingdoms - and, to some limited and impermanent extent, succeeded in doing so. In turn, however, both Henry VI and Baelor, each later famed for their piety, expressed an interest not into stepping into their predecessors’ shoes but in bringing about peaceable ends to their respective wars. Not only did both peace endeavors include the surrender of important aristocratic hostages - the Duke of Orleans by King Henry, the children of Dorne’s blue blooded families by King Baelor - but these efforts also included royal marriages with high-ranking families in these recently enemy territories - Baelor arranging the marriage of his young cousin Daeron to the Dornish princess Myriah Martell, Henry VI agreeing to a marriage between himself and Margaret of Anjou.

Unfortunately for the idealistic Henry VI, the marriage between himself and Margaret of Anjou neither ended war with France nor provided additional gains for England. Margaret’s cash dowry was relatively small - 20,000 francs - and though her father promised to include Margaret’s maternal claims to Mallorca and Menorca, these territories had been claimed by the crown of Aragon for centuries, and were a practical impossibility for England to occupy. Worse, shortly after Margaret’s coronation, King Henry VI agreed to surrender the county of Maine and abandon English claims to the territory of Anjou, in the hopes of obtaining a truce with France. The king’s aspiration for such a peaceful settlement were, however, in vain: within five years of Margaret’s marriage to Henry, the French king (with Margaret’s father René at his side) had retaken Normandy, and three years later England lost Gascony - its last major holding, besides the tiny toehold of Calais, from the conquests of the Hundred Years’ War and the inheritance of his Plantagenet predecessors.

In turn, I wonder whether GRRM will look to model Myriah Martell’s betrothal to Daeron. Just as Margaret was a French princess and niece (by marriage, at least) of the King of France - that is, a high-ranking female relative of the ruling family which had so recently opposed the last king’s conquest - so Myriah Martell was a princess of Dorne, daughter of the (unnamed) Prince of Dorne who had bent the knee to Daeron I. Margaret was not her father’s heir, as Myriah Martell certainly was (as the eldest child of the Prince of Dorne), but both princesses saw territorial returns to their paternal families in connection with their marriages to the royal successors of the fathers’ conquerors. Just as Henry VI agreed to surrender Maine (and his claim to Anjou) to Margaret’s father René in the hopes of sealing long-term peace between his realm and that of King Charles VII of France, so Baelor the Blessed agreed to a marriage between Prince Daeron and Princess Myriah as part of an agreement of peace between Dorne and the Iron Throne - with, presumably, a promise that the Iron Throne would not try to assert control over the late King Daeron’s conquered land. Consequently, I wonder whether the same deep unpopularity of the decision to surrender Maine - indeed, the Duke of Suffolk, blamed as the chief architect of this agreement, was impeached by the House of Commons on these grounds, among others, and shortly thereafter murdered - would have extended to this decision by Baelor, and by extension to Myriah herself - a princess whose betrothal, enemies of this decision may have asserted, came not with a rich dowry for a would-be future king but instead a return of lands conquered by the Iron Throne.

#asoiaf meta #baelor i targaryen #myriah martell #historical parallels #real world inspiration

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atopvisenyashill · 14 days

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i think the young dragon is even more of a dumb ass than aegon the uncrowned bc he doesn’t just make dumb shit mistakes that get him and his allies needlessly killed, he makes THE EXACT SAME MISTAKE that aegon the conqueror made re: dorne and the most stupid and frustrating thing is that aegon doesn’t make this mistake ANYWHERE ELSE.

After the field of fire, does aegon put a storm lord in casterly rock or does he allow loren the last continued rule over the westerlands? when he wipes out the gardener line, does he set up a reacher loyal only to him in highgarden or does he put a stranger there to rule over a people they don’t know and don’t understand? when he takes the riverlands, does he kill indiscriminately for years or does he figure out who the riverlanders hate, get that dude unseated, then find a neutral and respected riverlander to be the new lord paramount? in the stormlands, does orys make an attempt at peace by marrying argella, the last of the durrandan line, or does he just set up shop there and expect everyone to immediately accept his rule??

AND YET. not only is rhaenys like completely useless in dorne (while Visenya meanwhile wins several people over by figuring out what they want - appealing to Sharra through Ronnel & the threat that she can take the Eyrie on dragonback while not actually touching the place, or making sure the people of Cracklaw Point know she’s perfectly willing to give them exactly what they want so long as they don’t fight, for example!!), Rhaenys also kicks off the first dornish war of conquest by burning plankytown, the last stronghold of the rhoynar. Then, to rub dirt in the wound, instead of sticking around to figure out why half the population of dorne disappeared, he leaves a rosby and a TYRELL, the current ruling lord of dorne’s NUMBER ONE OPPS in charge and then fucks off.

so it’s like, well YEAH, first of all, of COURSE they looked at all that fire and blood nonsense and went “these dragon riding mfers followed us across the goddamn globe just to finish the job valyria failed at” bc even IF rhaenys didn’t realize the cultural or historical context of what a dragon rider burning plankytown looks like, it sure looks pretty fucking suspicious from where the dornish are standing. but secondly, aegon doesn’t think through how weird the movement in dorne is, doesn’t think through that it’s gonna piss dorne the fuck off if he leaves a reacherman in charge, he just leaves his people there and gets them killed, then throws a hissy fit for several years that is so violent, he basically ensures the ONLY way to get dorne to submit is to completely and utterly destroy the people of dorne.

THEN DAERON DOES THE EXACT SAME SHIT. he invades unprompted without offering anything - like say, a marriage match with one of his sisters - and doesn’t think twice about the way he’s purposefully and violently agitating the local population, leaves ANOTHER FUCKING TYRELL IN CHARGE without establishing ANY sort of community or common cause with ANY of the dornish lords, then after his group is completely unseated from sunspear, stupidly goes to meet with them thinking he’s got them on the ropes with no fucking proof of that, and gets his dumb ass killed.

like. absolutely no fucking brains in this dude’s head. no wonder jon is such a shitty lord commander if this is his idol akskdk

#once again. they should have tortured him before they killed him.#getting on my soap box #dorne #like even completely taking the very close cultural context of nymeria running from the freehold. these men are stupid as fuck!!!

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asoiafreadthru · 10 months

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THE TARGARYEN SUCCESSION

Dated by years after Aegon’s Conquest

1-37 - Aegon I - Aegon the Conqueror, Aegon the Dragon

37-42 - Aenys I - Son of Aegon and Rhaenys

42-48 - Maegor I - Maegor the Cruel, son of Aegon and Visenya

48-103 - Jaehaerys I - The Old King, the Conciliator, Aenys’s son

103-129 - Viserys I - Grandson to Jaehaerys

129-131 - Aegon II - Eldest son of Viserys

[Aegon II’s ascent was disputed by his elder sister Rhaenyra. Both perished in the war between them, called by singers the Dance of the Dragons.]

131-157 - Aegon III - The Dragonbane, Rhaenyra’s son [The last of the Targaryen dragons died during the reign of Aegon III.]

157-161 - Daeron I - The Young Dragon, the Boy King, eldest son of Aegon III [Daeron conquered Dorne, but was unable to hold it, and died young.]

161-171 - Baelor I - The Beloved, the Blessed, septon and king, second son of Aegon III

171-172 - Viserys II - Younger brother of Aegon III

172-184 - Aegon IV - The Unworthy, eldest son of Viserys [His younger brother, Prince Aemon the Dragonknight, was champion and some say lover to Queen Naerys.]

184-209 - Daeron II - Queen Naerys’s son, by Aegon or Aemon [Daeron brought Dorne into the realm by wedding the Dornish princess Myriah.]

209-221 - Aerys I - Second son to Daeron II (left no issue)

221-233 - Maekar I - Fourth son of Daeron II

233-259 - Aegon V - The Unlikely, Maekar’s fourth son

259-262 - Jaehaerys II - Second son of Aegon the Unlikely

262-283 - Aerys II - The Mad King, only son to Jaehaerys II

Therein the line of the dragon kings ended, when Aerys II was dethroned and killed, along with his heir, the crown prince Rhaegar Targaryen, slain by Robert Baratheon on the Trident.

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martellspear · 6 months

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Daeron I tried to imitate Aegon the Conqueror, but forgot what made him so successful in the first place: Limits. Aegon knew there was a limit on his conquests, Daeron had a child's vision of war and I don't blame the Dornish for murdering him under the banner of peace, yet in and out universe, the Dornish are reviled for defending themselves. Daeron was genuinely skilled and charismatic, but too arrogant and impatient.

"A conquest that lasted a summer. He wasted five thousand men in conquering Dorne and ten thousand in holding it. Somebody should have told him that war isn't a game."

I've been interacting with the asoiaf fandom for two years now and it’s, honestly to say the least, revolting how Dorne is treated by some (and I’ll include the show’s writers in that). Just this week I came across a post about how Dorne should keep itself out of the Seven Kingdoms business and how they shouldn’t “stick their noses where it doesn’t belong”. Now, I don’t know if it was jokingly or not, but it still is the same thing some characters and, from what I’ve seen, some readers genuinely think.

Historically, resisting this sort of “endeavor” has always casted a bad light over those who refuse to submit. They are seen as in need of a “righteous” person to guide them towards what’s considered to be the adequate path. We're taught to see the ones standing against oppression as condemnable. There's been a similar situation in Brazil’s history, and we can parallel the treatment towards the northeast region (which had many rebellions against the Crown during the Imperial era, was hard to control and discarded in favor of other regions and those who were born there suffer great prejudice to this very day) to what happens to Dorne.

Also, I'd like to say that The Dornish have always defended themselves and I'm honestly glad they did :).

Daeron did what he did not only because he saw war as a game but because he felt entitled to Dorne (the place that stood against a > dragon < but sure!! It'd work this time). We see this over and over with the Targaryens: they do what they want because of their name and the power that comes with it.

We can go into a deeper discussion regarding other themes that surround this if you want! You know you're always welcome to message me ♡.

#a song of ice and fire #dorne #asoiaf #anti targaryen #house martell #chatterbox nia

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aegor-bamfsteel · 1 year

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ppl give jaehaerys shit for the way he treats his daughters but imo he's overrated in general. He built roads which is good but that was it for his legacy.

Well, when the legacy of the other kings consists of:

Conquering most of a continent; building a Smelly City; causing mass destruction resulting in loss of a dragon because you couldn’t stand having other rulers in Westeros (Aegon I)

Being so bad at ruling that 4 rebellions broke out against you in the span of a season (Aenys)

Building an Evil Castle, then killing everybody involved in its construction; basically killing everybody who didn’t bend over backwards to appease you; getting shanked on your own throne (Maegor)

Inheriting the most prosperous realm ever, then leaving it on the brink of the bloodiest civil war due to crap family planning (Viserys I)

Being such a tyrannical ruler the people of the Smelly City chased you out in 6 months (Rhaenyra)

Being such a tyrannical ruler you allegedly got poisoned by your own men in 6 months (Aegon II)

Idk…being traumatized because you saw your mother eaten by a dragon, and also the dragons died (Aegon III)

Starting a bloody conquest war that ended in 60000 of your own men dead, that didn’t even stick (Daeron I)

Building a Women’s Prison in the Evil Castle so you can lock your sisters up for no good reason; building a Great Sept in the Smelly City named after yourself and moving your Rubber Stamp Popes (including an 8 year old and an illiterate stonemason) there (Baelor)

Idk…getting poisoned after a year? (Viserys II)

Raping women; trying to start unprovoked wars; unjust executions and land theft (Aegon IV)

Building a pleasure palace in a notorious war zone for your family; probably completing the Great Sept; being so bad at negotiating and family planning half the realm turned against you; harshly punishing even the children of those who turned against you (Daeron II)

Being so bad at ruling you’d rather read about prophecies, leaving a tyrant to preside over the worst humanitarian crises (drought and Great Spring Sickness) and yet more rebellions, thus creating an authoritarian police state (Aerys I)

Idk…keeping said tyrant as Hand despite him proving to be an incompetent ruler; also getting killed by a falling rock (Maekar)

Letting your kids marry “for love” causing rebellions; being unable to get your reforms for the peasants passed peacefully; resorting to trying to bring back dragons and getting yourself and half your family blown up at Pleasure Palace (Aegon V)

Idk…ordering the invasion of a sellsword kingdom on another continent due to generational paranoia; ruling for three years; demanding your kids wed because of a prophecy (Jaehaerys II)

Unjustly executing noblemen by burning them alive; calling for the executions of their families just for their blood relation, causing most of the realm to turn against you; planning to blow up the Smelly City before your teenage body guard shanked you, thus finally bringing your failure dynasty’s rulership to an end (Aerys II)

…measured against the other Targ kings, Jaehaerys’ legacy of building a six-kingdoms long road looks pretty good, considering most of the Targs’ own building projects were for themselves (Summerhall, Maegor’s Holdfast, the f—king Maidenvault) or localized in the Smelly City (Great Sept). Then Septon Barth and Alysanne had some good ideas about cleaning up the city water supply, helping fund the Night’s Watch, some laws allegedly protecting women, and then Florence Fossoway kept the kingdoms financially profitable, which I guess adds to J1’s prestige. Tbh I consider J1’s 2 wars against Dorne to also be a mark against him, and I’m annoyed that F&B added the detail that the Dornish allegedly mourned the guy who along with his sons burned hundreds of them alive on dragon back. Same with the Doctrine of Exceptionalism, and basically turning the High Septon into a rubber stamp when before the Faith had been a reliable anti-Targ faction that demonstrated some care for the smallfolk. In addition to mistreating his daughters, in a way that goes beyond politics and escalates into spite (though he’s hardly alone in that, with how Alysanne treated Viserra).

Really, I don’t see why GRRM can call Robert Baratheon “a terrible king”, when compared to the Targs he’s above average, and actually better than some of their best kings in some regards (when he pardoned those who rebelled against him with few exceptions).

#ask #opinion #anti targaryen #anti jaehaerys #asoiaf

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horizon-verizon · 2 months

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I could be thinking about this too much because this may just be due to bad writing, but the page makes much less sense beyond it being supposedly Alicent trying to appeal their past friendship to a woman whose kids she nearly stabbed.

Otto says this to Rhaenyra:

Queen Alicent has not forgotten the love that once existed between you. There is no need for bloodshed to continue peace in the kingdom. Queen Alicent is impatiently waiting for your answer.

Here is an post with a link to an article that began this post's line of thought:

But if only Alicent had read up more on Nymeria, she might understand the irony of her own actions. Though Rhaenyra does not say so in that scene under the tree, Nymeria’s house, after years of conquest, took over Dorne, and Nymeria ruled as Princess of Dorne for more two decades. She survived over a dozen assassination attempts, quelled two different rebellions, and drove back a couple of invasions. She abolished gender-based succession in Dorne, and her eldest daughter succeeded her.

It’s a little rich for Alicent to send Rhaenyra a history of a ruler who abolished gender-based succession—after leading a coup to place her son on the throne based on the premise that his elder sister should not inherit the crown. (It was equally eye roll inducing when Alicent told the Queen Who Never Was, Rhaenys, last week that she was better suited to rule than Viserys while simultaneously lobbying Rhaenys to support her drunken son Aegon II’s claim to the Iron Throne.)

It's possible that Alicent sends Rhaenyra this Nymeria page less as a way to hark on their friendship and girlhood innocence, but to use Nymeria as a cautionary figure against Rhaenyra's desires & moves towards war & accept Aegon as the ruler.

🎨: JENNIFER DRUMMOND: [in AWoIaF]

Remember, the Dornish aren't looked at...favorably by most non-Dornish Westerosi despite them having the same language and the same religion (and I mean most Dornish, even those Daeron I called "salty" way later). and that's because of their not only thier accent but the higher status and agency their women have of themselves and in politics through the Rhoynish practice of absolute primogeniture. Where the oldest child, regardless of gender, are customarily see as true inheritors. Before Nymeria & her people's arrival, Dorne was like other Westerosi Andal people, as in they were likely pale and practiced male-preference primogeniture and spoke the Common tongue like other Andal-descents.

Nymeria is, like Rhaenys & Visenya, more of an abnormal figure to those "up north" for being a female ruler who was able to survive several devastating setbacks and went on to conquer several Andal Dornish lords with her Martell husband (but he never would have been able to dominate those other lords without her mainly female-warrior army, his house wasn't even the "mightiest", like the Targs in Valyria) to ensure her people's survival, which itself also involved what I'd call a "Great Integration", when Nymeria's people intermarried with the Dornish men and exchanged their equipment, etc.. Westeros is obviously culturally and physically divided into "the savage northerners" from those who worship the Seven and have been for generations, such a thing isn't...feasible nor desired. Her waging war, though, to go back to that, is another remarkable and feared aspect of her, despite it being obvious that it was necessary and inevitable if she wanted her people to live (AWoIAF "Ten Thousand Ships"):

Nymeria didn't change pre-Nymeria Dorne for any reason that prioritized the pre-Nymeria Dronish lords then, but for the self-oriented reason of survival. And she's brought about a huge change; that in of itself is terrifying or at least anxiety-inducing, to see a woman even carry out something relegated to men...and even do it better. (Or, you know, that's the PoV)

In this way, Alicent giving that page is very much par for the course not only for her character, but also for how we can look at F&B being itself propaganda for "women-ruler bad! Cause "unnecessary" strife!" But it still doesn't really make sense for Rhaenyra to fully & sincerely accept that line of persuasion or to accept that idea that allowing Aegon to become king and render those oaths made to her worthless, the long years she spent practicing being heir worthless, and/or her father's long walk to "defend" her worthless, the danger to her children if she ever accepted the terms and ironically the danger presented if a lord were to try to use these 2 boys against the greens.

If we used some people's argument of why Alicent had to fear Rhaenyra becoming queen, why can't I also point this out in reverse for Rhaenyra in the case she does hand over her boys to the greens? Situation is similar in terms of "danger", bc those boys were never doubted as trueborn and they come from the named heir. Plus Otto is the person actually running things at the Red Keep...the same guy who wanted to kill Rhaenyra and said so at the HotD episode 9 green council!

In other words, we shouldn't be saying Alicent's reasons AND way of ending a war are purely justified or good...because she's still stealing something, one of the only things Rhaenyra has had that a man is allowed in this world. If what I said abt Alicent trying to use Nymeria as a cautionary note to Rhaenyra and not something like "remember when we used to be friends?!" way.

Or it's just Otto being manipulative and Alicent never actually sent that page...I can see these writers doing that, too. Still wouldn't justify Rhaenyra's reaction.

But IDK. I wonder what others think. Would this be a better rewrite, or do you think the show already tries to convey this and it was just bad writing?

#nymeria #rhaenyra targaryen #alicent hightower #fire and blood characters #awoiaf characterization #character comparison #hotd characterization #book vs tv comparison #alicent's page #dorne #mors martell #the martells

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blackcat419 · 9 months

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Why did Dorne agree to marry into the Targaryen dynasty and join the seven kingdoms? Dorne has constantly been invaded by the Targaryens and their dragons that burn and terrorize the Dornish people. Dorne also follows the faith of the seven and shouldn’t be affected by Targaryen exceptionalism like the other Kingdoms. They should view Daeron II and Daenerys as abominations born of incest.

Did entering the seven kingdoms secure a good food deal that the free cuties could not offer? It’s probably not to prevent wars because they were kicking the Targaryen butts.

They should not consider Daeron and Daenerys good marriage matches because again, they are inbred.

Yeah they got to keep more political independence than the other kingdoms, but it would be better for them not to be part of the seven kingdoms.

It kind of just seems like George needed the Dornish to join without having it be by conquest.

#asoiaf #asoiaf discourse #dorne

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alayne-stone · 2 years

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Sailing on ten thousand ships, Princess Nymeria led the Rhoynar to southeastern Dorne. Nymeria married Lord Mors Martell of the Sandship, forming House Nymeros Martell, and the Rhoynar intermarried with the bannermen of Mors. Nymeria named her husband "Prince of Dorne", using the Rhoynish term instead of the Westerosi title of "king".

Dorne successfully resisted House Targaryen during Aegon's Conquest and First Dornish War. When Dorne was peacefully incorporated into the Seven Kingdoms during the reign of Daeron II Targaryen, the Dornishmen received concessions from the Iron Throne, unlike the other Great Houses. Among these were the right to retain the Dornish royal title of prince, while the rulers of the other regions of the Seven Kingdoms had been reduced to wardens or lords paramount during the Conquest and forced to give up their royal titles and crowns.

Elia Martell Week 2022 - Day Three: Royalty.

#eliamartellweek #eliafests #elia martell

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jedimaesteryoda · 2 years

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“Daeron Targaryen was only fourteen when he conquered Dorne,” Jon said. The Young Dragon was one of his heroes.

As a boy Jon looked up to Daeron I the Young Dragon. Yet, as Benjen points out, Daeron’s biggest achievement didn’t last and his conquest of Dorne ultimately collapsed with tens of thousands of his men dying in the effort including himself. Objectively, Daeron proved to be an unsuccessful king.

Another attempt to bring Dorne into the realm was made under Daeron II. It’s not a coincidence that he shares the same name as the young dragon and as kings couldn’t be more different. Daeron I was a handsome, charismatic youth and the image of a warrior-king who was eager for war and glory. Daeron II by contrast at the point he wore the crown was a man grown and according to Martin “Not a warrior by any means; round-shouldered, with thin legs and a small pot belly. His face has a certain quiet strength, though, and his eyes are clear and full of resolve.” He shared no interest in war but was a scholar.

Daeron II would end up succeeding where Daeron I failed by using diplomacy rather than war to bring Dorne under the Iron Throne.

By ADwD, Jon resembles Daeron II, marking the maturation and growth of his character. The boy who once balked at being made a steward instead of a ranger buries himself in books and takes counsel from the bookish Sam and Aemon. Daeron II was influenced by his Dornish princess wife Myriah while Jon was by his wilding lover Ygritte and later “wildling princess” Val. The king brought former enemies the Dornish into the realm by diplomacy and negotiation just as Jon does with Tormund and the wildlings. Both those acts also result in backlash among their subordinates culminating in rebellion with the Blackfyre Rebellion for Daeron II and Ides of Marsh for Jon. The aforementioned former enemies end up becoming their biggest allies, and help crush those rebellions.

They also both end up having to deal with bastard pretenders with pretender Lord of the North Ramsay Bolton coming to the Wall as royal pretender Daemon I Blackfyre moved towards King’s Landing to depose Daeron II.

The two Daerons essentially serve as markers of Jon’s growth from the warrior-obsessed fourteen year-old boy to the older, wiser seventeen year-old who knows that some things can’t be solved with swords.

#asoiaf #daeron ii targaryen #daeron i targaryen #house targaryen #dorne #jon snow

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racefortheironthrone · 1 year

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Was there any way through which Daeron I first could have successfully conquered and held onto Dorne for a significant amount of time? Or were the Dornish too resiliant to conquest (culturally, geographically, etc) to ever be submited to the Iron Throne in any terms but their own?

There's a great quote from Richard Attenborough's Gandhi, when the eponymous protagonist is meeting with colonial officials in the wake of the Amritsar massacre. There's a back-and-forth exchange that neatly sets out the differences between the Indian nationalist and British imperialist perspectives, but then Gandhi cuts to the chase: "In the end, you will walk out, because 100,000 Englishmen simply cannot control 350,000,000 Indians if those Indians refuse to cooperate."

So to me, the critical turning point of Daeron's war has nothing to do with any decision he makes, or even any decision the ruling class of Dorne makes. It's when, in the wake of the Submission of Sunspeear the Dornish smallfolk refuse to bend the knee as their feudal overlords have done.

Once that happens, I think there is no way to conquer Dorne and consolidate it into the Westerosi polity. It's a fascinating moment, because it feels very contingent. It's not the case that incorporation into Westeros via elite agreement always fails, after all - look what Daeron II and Maron accomplish a few decades later - but this time the smallfolk of Dorne just would not listen to those above them in the ssocial hierarchy.

#asoiaf #asoiaf meta #daeron targaryen #conquest of dorne

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goodqueenaly · 3 months

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What is your understanding or imagining of the nature of House Ironwood’s support for the Blackfyres? Obviously they’re old enemies of the Martells, but were they effectively betraying all of Dorne by fighting to install an anti-Dornish regime that would place them as Lords Paramount over a more oppressed and forcibly assimilated Dorne? Or could there have been an arrangement where Daemon (or his successor) would give up Dorne to Yronwood rule in order (on the Blackfyre side) to de-Dorneify the rest of Westeros, and return to the old status quo for the Marcher Lords and Reach fighting the border Dornish as their enemies; and Yronwood could position themselves as liberators vs the Martells who “gave up Dorne to the Iron Throne”?

I tend to agree with @racefortheironthrone that House Yronwood wanted, and sought, in Daemon Blackfyre was a rewriting of the political playbook in Dorne which put them, the Yronwoods, on top. To say that House Yronwood has historically resented its secondary position in Dorne under the Martells is perhaps among the greatest of all Westerosi understatements: this is a family whose patriarchs have for the better part of a millennium styled themselves "the Bloodroyal", after all, an open reminder of their illustrious past and a claim to dynastic, if not currently executive, primacy. Daemon's would-be regime attracted other vassal families posed to be rivals to their local liege lords - the Sunderlands, the Reynes and Tarbecks, the Brackens and Freys, especially the Peakes - and the Yronwoods fit squarely in this model; a new dynasty on the Iron Throne would be perfectly positioned to raise new Houses to replace those which had supported the no-good-very-bad Daeron Falseborn, including House Yronwood.

I don't think Daemon could, or would, have agreed to surrendering Dorne, even temporarily. Since the days of Aegon the Conqueror, the Targaryen kings had used the title "King of the Rhoynar", proclaiming a hereditary right to rule Dorne. Indeed, Daemon drew his support in no small part from those "[k]nights and lords of the Dornish Marches" who "began to look more and more to the old days, when Dornishmen were the enemy to fight, not rivals for the king's attention or largesse". To suggest that he would abandon the "ancestral" Targaryen (now Blackfyre) claim to Dorne might well appear, at least to these factions, even worse a betrayal than the actions of Baelor and Daeron II: this was a king who was not only not pursuing that claim, but was acknowledging the right of Dorne to exist as an independent political entity, without the Iron Throne as its suzerain. Instead, I think Daemon agreed to make the Yronwoods Lords - specifically Lords - Paramount of Dorne, in exchange for bending the knee to him as king.

The political trick, of course, would have been how Daemon could square his alliance with and promotion of House Yronwood within Dorne with his power base among those Reach and Stormlands families who advocated for war and conquest in Dorne. Daemon could not in good faith ally with the Yronwoods, then say "alright lads, now time to plunder Dorne wholesale", but nor could he ignore the desire for conquest among his supporters. Perhaps Daemon would have sold future war in Dorne as something of a First Dornish War 2.0, now with the assistance of a pro-Blackfyre family within Dorne to help the Iron Throne and its vassals carve up the holdings of the traitorous Martells and their allies. Perhaps he would have also played up the racial/xenophobic angle, specifically against the Martells and other "salty" Dornishmen, by arguing that the Yronwoods - "that house of blue-eyed blondes", in the words of Quentyn Martell, among those Dornish families who "have the most in common with those north of the mountains and are the least touched by Rhoynish custom" - were in fact true-blue First Men Westerosi unfortunately separated by geopolitical borders, and that the real enemies were those Martells with their foreign, Rhoynish blood.

#asoiaf meta #daemon blackfyre #house yronwood #first Blackfyre rebellion

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alannybunnue · 1 year

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Runaway AU successful run away but caught later For 1,2,3,4,5,6,7 and 8

1 Daemon (was hard to escape, and you know why someone would try to escape most of all pregnant or similar)

2 Aemon and Naerys (tried to runaway foster Sister who left to return home after learning what the 2 did while she she slept in her room (TW:Somnophilia) and known no one would believe her)

3 Aegon the Uncrowned (AU daughter of Maegor, she did not even "run away" she wanted to visit her dad in his Exile. You gets her plan. The lie of meeting her half siblings Aegon won't believe her (most of all as Maegor would just try marry her to someone else))

Would be a interested AU

4 Arthur Dayne (she left him after the Lyanna fiasco, he is a insult to the Dornish for her)

5 Jace (since we have our Vaemond's daughter, why escape once when you can do it twice!)

6 Baelor the Blessed (the Queen escaped the Tower)

7 Baelor Breakspear (most of her family died in the conquest of Dorne, post war by the time Daeron I died under peace Banners. Daeron the Good thoughts it would help the realm heal and get her family House Tyrell to help him stabilize the Realm, I did the reverse very much of it.)

8 Cregan Stark ( it's too cold! She wants back to the Warm South!! Maybe she has Frigophobia or Cyrophobia. Her family wanted to marry her to the North but as a great house asked for her they had no choose. She did not even know who she married till she meet him. )

Ok, i will list the ones i liked and those i didn't and those i am neutral about.

1. (Neutral, like...ok? Makes sense, but it's not a story or nothing really relevant to judge)

2. (Dislike, like Naerys and Aemon being worse than Aegon is...weird, just don't, also she is still their sibling, even if it foster sibling)

3. (Dislike, It doesn't make sense with the story, if Maegor had a daughter or something before he was exiled, she would be a child when he exiled, which is weird to ship her with Aegon the uncrowded, so no)

4. (Neutral, not much to talk about)

5. (Like, that girl is stubborn as fuck x-x)

6. (Like, GO GIRL, She reminds me of Lady Greyjoy)

7. (Neutral, i love Baelor B, but....i don't understand your concept.)

8. (Like, the controversy in this story is hilarious 🤣)

#ask #a song of ice and fire #yandere concept #yandere x reader #yandere imagine #house of the dragon #blackfyre rebellion #robert's rebellion

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julio-claudian-saberface · 3 months

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Lucamore the Lusty

The name of multiple bawdy songs about the amorous exploits of Ser Lucamore Strong, once of the Kingsguard of Jaehaerys the Conciliator. The most enduring of them usually ends with the punchline of Lucamore's plea for mercy "for the sake of my sweet children and my darling wives!" (and a final repetition of the chorus)

Move into the far south, and one finds versions that are biting as well as bawdy, mocking King Jaehaerys alongside Ser Lucamore. In the Dornish "Lucamore the Lusty", Jaehaerys is depicted as a rank hypocrite, going from "swiving his dear sister" the night before to castigating Lucamore for his bigamy. While the "normal" song is hardly designed to please a septon, the Dornish song might even be construed as treasonous - when under Targaryen rule. But it first became widespread in an independent Dorne some ten years after Lucamore's downfall, after the fiasco of the Fourth Dornish War, when its people were in dire need of something to laugh about. This was followed by a resurgence in the period of Daeron I's Conquest, when the melody was used as a surreptitious jab at the northern occupiers who - knowing only the comparatively innocuous version - went largely unaware.

Indeed, it might have pleased the septons who heard it - the Dornish branch of the Faith resisted adoption of the Doctrine of Exceptionalism until well after their integration into the Seven Kingdoms under Daeron II, and in the meantime many a sermon was preached from Dornish pulpits of Valyrian hubris and depravity.

#asoiaf #worldbuilding

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imaginarianisms · 25 days

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okay so i have. no idea when fire & blood part 2 is gonna come out so its. Very possible i could be wrong about a few things but here's a meta on m.yriah m.artell.

m.yriah m.artell was definitely in an interesting time period even before she became queen. i&. genuinely have no idea if she'd ever know queen daenaera velaryon or (big maybe) larra rogare or any of aegon's mistresses but i& think it's definitely possible considering we don't know if daenaera outlived aegon iii but it's very possible she did, who knows, maybe she was one of myriah's mentors in king's landing. she was around the time of aegon iv targaryen, aegon the unworthy, who's just. one of the actual worst rulers of the targaryen dynasty. iirc she was the eldest of the prince of dorne's children at the time so she was set to rule dorne much like princess a.rianne m.artell in our current story is, she was meant to rule & likely had that expectation, so when baelor targaryen comes along to speak with the prince of dorne once the crazy fucker finally arrives at sunspear, to agree upon a peace which included a marriage between his cousin prince daeron & myriah martell & the two would marry once they came of age, that probably really shocked myriah bc like imagine being expected to rule dorne one day & then you have to give up that right to become queen of all the seven kingdoms one day? that must've stung a bit, too, but it's also a MASSIVE undertaking. it's one thing to rule one kingdom, but seven? that's quite a lot. there had been many queens of westeros before, but myriah martell is the TRUE first queen of the seven kingdoms, because in all the previous reigns, dorne was never truly a part of westeros, it was its own independent kingdom, it had never bowed to the targaryens during aegon's conquest, they were the only kingdom that managed to fight off the targaryens & actually WIN or the previous conquest of king daeron i targaryen, dorne only came into the fold with marriage & diplomacy. so she probably had to learn about the non-dornish kingdoms & peoples as well before becoming queen. becoming this queen, however, Also involves marrying into the family that's attempted to subjugate & conquer your people since aegon the conqueror & his sister wives (& they ACTUALLY KILLED RHAENYS & A DRAGON BY THE FUCKING WAY). like. can you imagine how appalling it must be to marry into a family that felt superior to you & entitled to YOUR land. & keep in mind said bizarre inbred family is no longer the powerhouse they once were on the heels of the war that cost them their dragons & yet they learned nothing, even now. myriah joined king's landing at such an interesting time. she's supposed to usher in peace & prosperity to the realm but how do you Do That when Everything is working against you as a foreign princess.

bc keep in mind. the grandson of queen rhaenyra i targaryen just died attempting to subjugate HER country once more & was killed under a peace banner. a loss that demanded blood & caused outrage, despite the fact that daeron the young dragon lost over 10,000 lives trying to control a land that. Didn't Belong To Him. baelor the blessed was instrumental in creating peace arranging her very own arranged marriage alliance, her own son who was meant to be one of the greatest kings is named after him but dorne is Also where women have always ruled & baelor's three sisters were imprisoned against their will in the maidenvault for a decade. that must've terrified myriah (& it didn't help that baelor quite literally walked all the way to sunspear barefoot on the hot sands, she must've been like "father...... what is this man doing.... he's crazy"). i think just the stories she's heard of daena the defiant, rhaena, queen naerys, elaena & daenerys she'd hold a great deal of pity for them bc in dorne nothing of the sort would ever happen to them let alone naerys' abuse by aegon iv who i think later in life she would've gotten along with naerys as her daughter in law & tried to take care of her bc she's decent. i& genuinely think that even when she wasn't queen yet, she would've tried to bring more women into the fold & into positions of power. something we Do know canonically is the fact that daeron ii's court was disliked for being progressive/intelligent, pro women & pro dornish, who btw are poc, so the red keep at the time would be VERY inclusive & were likely pro sex work, pro disability & pro lgbtqia+/queerness because the dornish were known for accepting women's rights & elderly rights, the rights of people with disabilities & queer people, sex workers as well as same sex/same gender relationships & polyamorous relationships, elaena targaryen was the unofficial master of coin & was trusted with state matters for daeron ii & myriah & famously sided with THEM & not her sister's son during the first blackfyre rebellion & she could've been friends w/ elaena & not to mention myriah martell would be the first non-valyrian woman of color to become queen of westeros (there were black women who ruled before her notably {technically visenya targaryen & rhaenys targaryen who're mixed as their mother was valaena velaryon} alyssa velaryon, alysanne targaryen & daenaera velaryon, but they were all valyrian & the rest of the queens were presumably all white women). that's a MASSIVE deal. & not to mention the fates of the queens before her must've shocked her bc like literally none of that would've happened in dorne.

myriah was also a princess & queen to be under a father in-law who hated & attempted to take her country AGAIN even after she married his son. i honestly can't even imagine the amount of anxiety, rage & stress this would've caused myriah & i can't imagine she didn't have to swallow racist insult after racist insult from aegon iv. like. i almost wonder if some of the targaryens after the dance of the dragons, specifically king aegon vi, daeron i targaryen the young dragon, daena the defiant, etc. were desperate to get back some of their sense of superiority after their great house lost the source of their power, the dragons (by their own making. btw), & what better way to do that then to conquer the land that aegon & his sisters couldn't with even their own dragons. what better way to prove themselves Real Dragons TM & to prove their superiority. so when they were reduced to normalcy like yknow Literally Everybody Else that must've been a real hard pill for the targaryens to swallow lmao

this is the court myriah would have to contend with & this isn't even going into the fact that even Before she became queen, she & her children were considered unworthy for not being white paleskinned purple eyed blondes bc they were dornish & the court was Very Fucking Racist Towards The Dornish. going w/ the presumption that she was born in 146 AC, myriah would've been 24 when she had baelon, 26-30 (most likely 26) when she had aerys, 27-31 (most likely 27) when she had rhaegel & 28-32 (most likely 28) when she had maekar; daeron treated his half siblings well & yet they STILL go to war against HER queenship & the rights of her trueborn children after the death of aegon iv; myriah would've been 26 at least or 38 at most when he died (daemon blackfyre also married rohanne of tyrosh during this time & aegon legitimized all his bastards including daemon blackfyre, aegor rivers / bittersteel, mya rivers, gwenys rivers, brynden rivers / bloodraven & shiera seastar on his deathbed so myriah would've known them & she would've been 26-38 when she became queen, but i'm gonna go with the maximum possible age so she'd be a year younger than daena the defiant so she'd be 26 when she became queen) depending on which year she was born bc even that's unclear but if she was born in 146 AC, she would've lived through the reigns of aegon iii, daeron i, baelor i, viserys ii, aegon iv & daeron ii & very possibly even outlived her husband & if she was born in 158 AC she would've lived through the reigns of daeron i, baelor i, viserys ii, aegon iv & daeron ii & likely outlived her husband but for my sanity's sake i'm gonna go with the prediction that she was born in or around 146 AC if not maybe a few years after, idk yet, hopefully that gets confirmed. if she was born in or around 146 AC myriah would've been 7 years older than him; daeron ii died when he was 55 in 209 AC so she would've been 62 (if she was born in 146 AC) at most when he died so she definitely lived during the blackfyre rebellions era & very well could've lived in aerys i's reign (209-221) & maekar i's reign (221-233), idk, i like to think she lived just long enough to see aegon v become king & dying of natural causes when she was 79 years old as an elderly woman but fire & blood part 2 could prove me wrong, but she would've lived past alysanne targaryen. maybe she adopted daenerys after naerys died so she could make sure daenerys would be a good, clever & intelligent full fledged leader capable of ruling dorne like she herself was meant to & then later shiera seastar after serenei of lys died & it's because of that loyalty to her adopted family that she was loyal to the targaryens (& that could be a reason why maekar beefed with brynden bc he's protective over his adopted little sister while technically she's biologically his half aunt after her mother died & her father was an asshat & maekar is the youngest of daeron & myriah's children & shiera's the only little sibling he had so he's a grumpy older brother), who knows, maybe she mentored b.etha b.lackwood for a time before she's queen.

myriah would've had to be a spectacular & aweinspiring woman to survive & thrive under the circumstances she lived through, she & daeron had a healthy marriage despite so many things working against them & daeron ii built the castle of summerhall in her honor & the peace in westeros. she must've been bold, unflinching, intelligent, confident, sometimes even arrogant bc she Knows She's That Bitch, kind, clever & regal, embodying the very words of her house "unbowed, unbent, unbroken".

#out of the galaxy. || ooc.#personals & fandom blogs dni #myriah martell. || study.#myriah martell. || headcanons.#idk im really excited for fire & blood part 2 #i may or may not be updating this when its released but this is just based on vibes alone !

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warsofasoiaf · 4 years

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I wasn't trolling, and I apologize if I caused offense. I definitively didn't mean to do that. I just don't see how Daeron's conquest is in any way morally justifiable, nor why the Dornish are in the wrong for killing their invaders.

Try to salvage anon's Daeron ask. What about the justness of wars of conquest where continual border skirmishes and general unrest exist. Is that a war of conquest? What about the changing international customs, laws and institutions that judge these things?

No worries.

The second Anon has the right of it. Far from being an unprovoked act of naked aggression against Dorne, the relationship between the Seven Kingdoms and the independent Principality of Dorne was fraught with continual attacks, raids, and violence, and not only in one direction. Deria Martell is widely believed to have supported the Vulture King, certainly she permitted her vassals to join his campaign which suggests that she supported him as a barely-deniable asset. Morion Martell launched an invasion against the Seven Kingdoms out of a desire to avenge the Vulture King. Aliandra Martell encouraged raiding into the Dornish Marches as a means of gaining her favor, thus making aggression against Westeros an established domestic and foreign policy.

Daeron’s war definitely had conquest elements, since it was explicitly designed to annex territory and complete Aegon’s Conquest; a mere punitive expedition ala the Pancho Villa expedition would probably limit itself to burning down outlaw camps, securing any stolen treasure, and hanging known raiders and people in possession of stolen goods. However, with Aliandra Martell explicitly endorsing raiding as a means of political advancement, Daeron’s war cannot be thought of solely as a vanity project. Daeron is within his right as king of Westeros to take measures to end border aggression and defend his people. Since Aliandra is establishing the policy in her purview as Princess of Dorne, that means it’s not merely criminal activity, but national policy, so Daeron can take action against Dorne itself, not simply against cross-border raiders. Certainly, wars of conquest were conceived of differently in the Middle Ages, the “right of conquest” and wars of aggression were criticized as crimes at Nuremberg, and further clarified by the UN in 1974, so international norms in Westeros were a lot different and that does factor into character motivation.

But the bigger concern to me is specifically the murder at the peace conference, because there’s no way that it’s justifiable. Even by ancient norms such a thing was considered to be a capital offense against law and morality both. By misusing the truce flag and the peace conference, they become degraded in function; they become ineffective means by which to end a war. When that happens, then the question becomes, how do you end a war? You can’t do it with a peace conference, those could be a plot to lure you out to murder you. How do you even communicate with the enemy to seek out a peace deal? That’s the problem, you can’t trust anything the enemy does in regards to peace. In the absolute worst case scenario, this turns wars into affairs of annihilation, but even more moderately, this hampers a wars ability to end, which results in more casualties, more losses, and greater aftereffects. That’s why the misuse of these symbols is a war crime, because it harms the belligerents’ ability to end the war.

This is illustrated most infamously in the Pacific Theater of the Second World War. Japanese soldiers would attack under white flags or with their hands up, and as a result, Allied servicemen stopped accepting requests for surrender. That jeopardizes the lives of any Japanese soldiers that wanted to surrender, because now the enemy cannot trust surrender as genuine, since accepting a surrender jeopardized their own lives.

We see this within the novel itself. When Tyrion sends false envoys to Riverrun with the intent of breaking Jaime out of prison, it means the Northmen and Riverlanders cannot trust further Iron Throne envoys. Much as with the Red Wedding, this places the Lannisters in a position where they are constantly suspect for bad faith, and we see the after-effects in the novel series. Guest right doesn’t protect anyone, and the aftermath is a false peace.

It’s logically valid to say that you don’t believe that Daeron’s war was justified but that the Martells did something heinously wrong in murdering him at a peace conference; you are not obligated to turn any event into a binary.

Thanks for the question, Anons.

SomethingLikeALawyer, Hand of the King

#daeron i targaryen #daeron's war of dornish conquest #perfidy

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thisisdorne · 5 years

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The Conquest of Dorne

Tenthousand died during Daeron's Conquest... Fortythousand died in the three years that followed...

The Conquest didn't last one summer

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