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katyspersonal · 2 months

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Katyyyyy where are you, new way to hate gehrman just dropped. Basically now he disrespected maria because doll is a levelup maiden that helps hunters during the hunt despite the fact she hated the hunt.

He is even at fault for not doing enough to prevent it in case it was moon presence doing. Its that absurd

fdsjhfh Hrrrrg sorry anon, I've been taking a break from the internet for health reasons (and still need more of it). But, damn, this sounds so... forced? Honestly, I do not understand such a strong hate-boner for a sad man in a wheelchair some people in this fandom have. I can't really think of any benefit of the doubt to spare here, it just feels like some people are unable to enjoy any piece of media without pulling real life problems, grudges and extremely unsympathetic judgement into it, especially towards characters and stories where they do not apply.

ANYWAYS, TWO-PARTER!

1) "Maria hated the hunt"

I think an important point to make here is that Maria's disdain for the hunt was, first and foremost, rooted in personal reasons! She was that strong, capable hunter of beasts (and undead Pthumerians of the Chalice Dungeons, for all we know!) but slaughtering the fish "monsters" that could still speak and think and pray was what broke her and made her unable to kill any longer. The way I see it, it was a trauma, and damaged self-image. She could not stand herself as that horrible killer, SHE was the real monster and it was plain to see!

If the point here is that making the Doll, a creation to immortalise Maria('s softer side), help Dreaming Hunters to become stronger and carry on the night, I don't.... understand it? Maria was no longer willing to hunt herself, and in the end, it was very likely that guilt that driven her to su1cide. We don't know that, though. It could've been losing Adeline, it could've been that Cainhurst massacre happened while she was still alive and she hated feeling like a traitor of the sinking ship, it could've been madness and misery of patients rubbing onto her, or all at once, or something else.

But let's say, dreading her past as the hunter was the core thing. I believe this as well, because in the Nightmare part focused on tormenting her, we can see a Chalice and a picture from Abandoned Old Workshop. This is very telling about what she does not want to remember the most:

The problem with the hunt and the beasts though? Beasts attack and eat people. Maria maybe never wanted to draw a blade again, but we can't say she would be opposed to helping the hunters. If nobody hunts the beasts, while they are growing in numbers, they will just... eat people? It actually reminds me of a misconception about Djura hating the hunters in general! He specifically asks to not attack the beasts of Old Yharnam, for the reason of them not being able to harm anyone unprovoked! Meanwhile, he encourages the Paleblood Hunter to go and hunt beasts out there, that can and will just attack humans! I think that Maria must be similarly rational: she can't fight anymore, but she can't deny that if no one else fights as well, beasts will just overcome people, and there will be no one.

If anything, Maria spent the rest of her life, after having revoked her hunter status, to help in the walls of the Research Hall. Research Hall was laboratory of the Healing Church, who were having and governing the hunters by proxy, even if their own type (the Holy Blades) and not Gehrman's type (the Old Hunters)! I would not say that her helping to sustain the hunt past death is so alien to her! The Hunter's Dream was Laurence's plan, and very likely the purpose of it is so that the Dreaming Hunters are able to sustain the full-moon nights with their power and immortality - all so Healing Church has more time and resources for research on ascension. In conclusion, Maria resorted to the role of passive helper, the support, rather than fighting force, even in life. Doll, in a twisted way, continues that quest.

P.S. Just because Maria hating all hunt and hunters as concept would be irrational, it doesn't mean that it can't be! It is still possible that she went 'may Chaos take the world' and spiralled into thinking that maybe humans of Yharnam had to pay the price for messing with things beyond their comprehension by simply perishing. Just.. not only I think this doesn't work so well for the character, but also in this case, Gehrman's "disrespect" would only be charitable! As in, 'Maria lost all sympathy and hope for humanity in life, but she might be her real caring self once more, in this new form', you feel? Not disrespect, but feeling like he must carry on the image of her true self when she no longer could.

For the next part though, let's assume that Maria would not want to ever help the hunters with no other ways around it, and that Gehrman was aware of it, to cut to the main points!

2) "Gehrman did not do enough"

Moon Presence is a literal God that owns the Hunter's Dream, I strongly doubt that Gehrman would be able to have much of a say in this...? If it was Flora's intent to animate the Doll, she might just do what she sees fit regardless of his wish. Or, more twisted yet: even if Gehrman asked her to please leave the Doll out of the hunt to honor Maria's wishes, Flora could read in his heart that he was miserable and lonely so still chose to give him a company. Great Ones might not understand the complexities of humans, such as the conflict between "selfish" needs and their integrity! Whereas for us it is a known thing to understand we must not want what we want, and we must do what we should, for her it was just that the host of the Dream was sad and missed a dear friend that looked just like that doll thing over there!

+ Moon Presence is only able to be defied with a large amount of insight and ascension-potential gained from consuming Umbilical Cords that Gehrman most likely didn't consume. I think it's worth pointing out as one of the reasons why he couldn't even "fight it" if he wanted!

This also made me think of another possibility I discarded long ago, I guess time to blow the dust from it!

Doll's face notably has these cracks on it, and at first I wondered if maybe, it was Gehrman himself who was trying to either beat the influence of Moon Presence from her, or simply destroy her. And yet, every time, she rose back to life, as eery and unfeeling as ever, until he gave up trying over and over... What if he did not want Moon Presence and the Hunters to tarnish precious memory of Maria, to the point of trying to break the Doll to stop mocking him. To stop mocking Maria. And although Doll always assembled back, something was still always off, as the evidence of his attempts - these cracks!

...in the end, I've personally decided it worked better as manufacturing mistake because his hands were shaking at Maria's face part. But like, imagine: Moon Presence cannot be reasoned with, and the next option, to attack the Doll itself, as much as it hurts to hit something Maria-shaped, doesn't work either. It is possible that he did not quite have a choice here, and Doll was animated regardless of his will. Could be for the sake of the Hunter's Dream, could be Flora's twisted "gift" for him that she would not take back... could be a coincidence, too.

Not only it is strongly implied that Maria was buried near the Old Hunters Workshop, since Old Hunter's Bone is found at the same grave Doll prays to and that leads to Hunter's Nightmare, but Doll also has two-to-three confirmed belongings of Maria herself in her design! It could be not Moon Presence's choice and not Gehrman's, but Maria's soul simply dwelled in this body on instinct because of all the odds that attracted her! Maria's soul could be split between Nightmare and Dream, since the two have spiritual connection (Doll remarks that she felt at ease after we kill Maria), Doll sometimes sleeps and we find Maria sleeping too, they have the same voice although Doll's body has no vocal cords (she is a doll, not a robot!) and we know Maria cared about Gehrman at least at some point.

It could be the odds not even a God would have the power over, let alone a man!

+ The cut lines of dialogue offer to her NOT hating the hunt entirely too. She literally tells you that "you will not find your enemies here", and since she seems to know you are a hunter under Gehrman, it makes sense to think she is referring to actual beasts to hunt that would slaughter people in the waking world... So, yeah, her "hating the hunt" isn't outright stated nor supported by both canon and cut content, but can still be a headcanon.

But what if Gehrman did it himself?

I will admit though, there is a potential for an idea! After all.. I love this take a lot. That maybe, initially, Doll was not animated, and Gehrman was the host of the Hunter's Dream all alone by himself. But his sanity was giving up from carrying the Dream by himself and being completely devoid of company. He was losing it, he could no longer trust his own restraint, he needed to keep his distance from the Dreaming Hunters for their own safety. After all, as we can see from one of the endings, if he allows a Dreaming Hunter to kill him, he will be free and the Dreaming Hunter will take his place. The freedom from endless solitude, nightmares and torment of the wait, always so close....

( x ) for translation of his lyrics. Also I want this to be written in the protocol that I hate listening to Gehrman's theme and it makes me cry every time even these three years later fsdhfhdsds

It might have been a sad necessity. To perform some sort of ritual to bring the Doll to life, so someone could take the duties off his shoulders while he is not stable. Because he could not trust the power of his will any longer. Why not direct this to someone that could not feel the loneliness and the pain? Even at the cost of tarnishing his precious memory of a special person?

In this case, sure, he is "guilty". "Guilty" for burying her near this place when she did not want to be a hunter, sure. Again, we don't know the extent of Maria's disdain for the concept, only that she personally did not wish to draw a blade again! And "guilty" for being a human being with human limitations. I think that if someone still wishes to hate him despite it, over their own misuse of the "explanation does not equal excuse" sentiment, this is just the same overly judgemental attitude I actively oppose and I can't approve of this even as much as I want to give a chance to every interpretation. I just recently made a post digging into how the way people treat certain "problematic" characters can reflect their morality towards real people ( x ), and this brings my point again. So, person had every single reason to do the thing, and basically no other choice in the situation, but they are "still guilty"? Context matters a lot, and still willing to hate someone when they had no choice but to do the thing is inhumane, I think. It reeks of pure desperation of excluding and exiling a person "touched by sin" even if it was not their fault, and this very specific sort of superfluous judgement had rotted the society, let alone media analysis!

________________

Alright, I've gotten quite emotional in the last part for someone simply disagreeing with a take on a fictional character, but every other time no matter what reason to hate this guy is touched upon I can't find any explanation but general lack of sympathy and understanding. Heck.. I guess Gehrman was written SO, so brilliantly, that the way people treat him is a great vibe-check? Any character can be disliked, including him, but people's reasoning for why the character is disliked can give away ignorance at least, cruelty and judgemental attitude at worst!

I just hope that I've made my stance on the take clear! Admittedly, it is a more interesting discussion than "misogynist creep" discourse that has been debunked 5000 times now! I think in this case, it is harder to find a final word, and I just offered mine. A lot of this depends on how one perceives Maria and Gehrman, there is no The One True interpretation and I've just suggested my thought process and what I think is more reasonable to assume. Taking away Gehrman's complexity and potential for sympathy for the sake of 'just another man that disrespected a woman' is a pet peeve for me but I am open for surprises. You just said that people "hate" on him yet again, and it just gets old.

#bloodborne #gehrman the first hunter #lady maria of the astral clocktower #plain doll #ask replies #bloodborne headcanons #bloodborne observation #disco horse #back to the bed i crawl #I leave for 2 days and Gehrman is everyone's punching bag again what is going on fshhfdfsd #maria doesn't need your gehrman-hating to preserve her integrity and complexity she had her own demons to fight (and lose against)

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katyspersonal · 2 months

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I start to feel like "how you treat characters doesn't reflect your beliefs" is not as absolute as I thought. Yes, sure, if you like a villain it doesn't mean you'd condone war crimes they did in real life. But you know what kind of treatment of fictional characters DOES reflect the person's beliefs?

When they use the logic of "ugh you only seek nuance and analyze this male character because you want to simp, you don't have to woobify an awful person you know" @ "how can you seek nuance and analyze this objectively flawed female character, she is irredeemable??".

Basically, they are admitting that the only reason they'd give a thought to someone is if they have an interior and frankly shallow motive. They admit that they only treat someone as a human being if they either find them sexy or if they personally like them platonically and by result wish to perceive them as perfect. From my experience these people DO project this mentality on real people too, not just characters. They will forgive the one they personally like for every objectively horrible thing, like, absolutely awful shit just gets glossed over. And worse yet, they forgive them uncritically. They simplify them into one dimensional being that can do no wrong even if they did EVERYTHING wrong, even if they hurt innocent people, same as they do with the nuanced, flawed (usually female) character they reduced to flat portrayal just because they liked this character.

As usual, the best way to deal with is to ask it back at them. When they accuse you of having shallow interior motive for analyzing a fictional character like a human being, simply ask them, "Is this the only reason why YOU would analyze a character fairly?". There is always hope that the doubt will be triggered.. you may not see the results just yet, but one day it could come back at them.

But yes, please pay attention to how they treat characters, because when we are discussing the issue of analyzing those written BASED ON human beings, there is no way to really avoid giving out how they REALLY treat the human beings. If you found a person screeching at you for digging into nuance of """irredeemable""" character and accusing you of simping, you've found a love-blinded enabler of people they like and overly judgemental bully of people they don't like. This is the person that is most likely to cover up their bully stalker friend or their abuser groomer partner or what else. AND this is the person that at the same time will try to ruin your life over the most dumb mistake if you failed to meet their attraction standards, romantically or platonically.

#fandomry rambles #fiction #people #untaggable #disco horse #(I think? i doubt this opinion is all that controversial tbh)

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