#i love the theory of cat sacrificing herself for jon but i also want arya to kill her so thats hard | Explore Tumblr Posts and Blogs

lyannas · 6 years

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I like that grrm chose catelyn as the narrator for the northerners' side of the war, but why do you think he chose her over robb?

GRRM has, notably, removed every king from the WOT5K as POV characters. Neither Balon, Joffrey (or Tywin, if that’s how you look at it), Stannis, Robb, or Renly have POV chapters and instead have other characters offering insight into their wars. Balon has Theon, Joffrey has Sansa and Tyrion, Stannis has Davos, and Robb and Renly have Catelyn (Brienne, of course, does not get a POV chapter until long after Renly is dead). Meanwhile, the women (or “queens” if that’s you wanna read it) who are not actually seriously considered as contenders within their worlds, do have POV chapters. This includes Daenerys, Cersei, Sansa (if her endgame is truly QItN), Asha, and Arianne. I’d argue that even Melisandre counts in this pool, as she was described as Stannis’s “true queen”.

I’m sure other people have their own theory on why this is. It is, after all, a rather unusual and circumvent way to tell the stories of some very central characters. I think it’s for a number of reasons. For one, these five men are all in rather similar positions with similar goals. They are all powerful men with sizeable armies behind them, and while their motivations for war and conquest are all different, they all want the (or “a”, in Robb’s case) throne. They are all commanders, they’re all some of the most privileged people that exist in their society, and to be quite honest, they don’t need their own voice in the narrative. I mean sure, it might be nice to know about the intimate and personal details of their minds and thought processes, but all in all we glean more than enough from other characters’ observation of them.

Another reason I believe GRRM chose to do it this way ties into his anti-war narrative. Most of what we see these five men do in the books is wage war. As commanders and as kings, they’re in the highest position of power with the resources and men for the sole purpose of waging war. The books detail the effects of this war quite clearly. These armies bring with them rape, bloodshed (both in battle and outside of it), destruction of farmland, pillaging, depletion of natural resources, famine, and in the Lannisters’ case, systematic war crimes in what is virtually a concentration camp (AKA Harrenhal, *shudders*). Even Robb, who is painted as a very noble and even a moral hero can’t prevent individual men from acting out, and he certainly did not surveil Roose Bolton as closely as he should have (though hindsight is admittedly 20/20). These men, whether we love them or hate them, are waging wars whose effects ripple out and hit the most vulnerable people of society the hardest. To give us the POV of these men will almost guarantee that we will hear their justification for bloodshed, the excuses they tell themselves, and the jingoism that may drive them. Worse, when presented in the very sympathetic format of a POV, we as readers may be inclined to sympathize with them to some degree. That’s not what GRRM wants us to see. He wants us to give us more objective views of these people from the people who observe them, and through POV characters like Arya, Bran, and Davos, we are made to see what sort of misery these men have brought to very vulnerable people.

And yes, this does include Robb Stark. As good and noble as he tried to be, he is still a king and a figure in this war who happens to also make some very bad choices that he doesn’t actually consider to be bad when he makes them. As I noted before, this means a Robb POV chapter would mean we get to hear all his excuses for his bad choices, and we as readers don’t need to hear his excuses. “Words are wind”, after all. (Still love u, Robb).

Through the POVs of the people who observe them, we learn a lot not only about these men but about how people who love them (and don’t love them) react to them, and that is what another crucial thing that would be missing from their POVs. Here’s a question to pose as an example: what is more impactful– a look inside Stannis’s head as he insists that Edric Storm must be sacrificed, or Davos’s profound disappointment at his beloved king’s decision? What’s better– being in Joffrey’s head as he orders Sansa stripped and beaten in front of the court, or reading that terrible act firsthand from the victim? Would it be more interesting to know what Balon is thinking when he first sees Theon after their long separation, or read Theon’s humiliation and extreme sorrow at his father’s lackluster reaction to his homecoming?

In many instances, not having the kings’ POVs allows us to see inside the minds of some of their victims. Whether they victimized these people maliciously or not is irrelevant; the point is that the victims, (or the overlooked, or the disregarded) have a voice while those who hurt them do not. (Again, I must include a qualifier for Robb Stark: while he never tried to hurt his mother on purpose, he definitely dealt her some rather crushing blows with decisions such as not trading Jaime for his sisters, naming Jon as his heir, sending Theon to Pike against her advice, etc). Another interesting element it adds is that it does leave somethings about these kings a mystery– which adds to the compelling storytelling imo.

So, what makes the queens different? Plenty of things. They are, for the most part:

At a disadvantage in society by virtue of their sex

Underestimated and undervalued

Fighting uphill battles in terms of getting the respect and power they want

Under the control of a man/men or have experienced a large part of their life under that control

Not treated as equals to men

There are exceptions to this of course, and Arianne does make up the majority of those exceptions, but nonetheless the queens are all women whose positions are made highly unique by virtue of the fact that they all have to be creative or even underhanded to achieve the same goals that the men around them can achieve in a straightforward manner. After all…

Daenerys needed dragons to survive and jumpstart her story

Sansa was a captive at King’s Landing and is to some extent still a captive at the Vale, and had to jump through some insane hoops just to get to this point

Cersei has to use sex, deceit, murder, manipulation, and subject herself to some pretty awful things to get the power she desires (which is still out of reach!)

Despite being regarded as her father’s heir, Asha has to fight her uncles and change the minds of her entire sexist society in order to be recognized as queen of anything, and is reduced to her sex by men at every turn

Arianne also must use sex and deception, but is dogged by the notion that her father doesn’t want her to be his heir and tries to launch a scheme that goes horribly awry. This, of course, could have been prevented had her father simply been honest with her from the beginning and reveal the information he told Quentyn to her as well.

So while the men literally just had to gather their armies and declare war to get things in motion, these women have to take the less-than-scenic route with many bumps, twists, and turns to achieve even a fraction of the autonomy and power their male counterparts have. And sadly, these women still haven’t achieved that level of power, with the exception of Daenerys who built her army from scratch but also had the help of three very big, very scary dragons. Also known as the only very big, very scary dragons in the whole series. In other words, while the kings only needed to call their banners, Daenerys had to recreate a phenomena that hadn’t occurred in decades and also involved her walking into a funeral pyre. Not exactly the same thing.

So there is my very long-winded and probably typo riddled answer as to why I think GRRM chose not only Cat over Robb, but literally any other POV character over any of the contending kings. I am actually really glad he did it this way, even if he didn’t do it this way on purpose.

#grrm #asoiaf #meta #my meta #Anonymous #asks

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raynakrahl-blog · 7 years

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#Jonsa vs #Jonerys

***********************EPISODE 6 SPOILERS AHEAD*******************************

I’ve been reading a lot of these #jonsa and #jonerys posts and I feel like people are confused about Jon’s feeling for both of them... let me explain...

So #Jonsa fans like to point out how he looks “longingly” at her and how they have more romantic chemistry etc. I can see how you might be confusing brotherly love and admiration as romantic feelings (I guess). I can at least see where the looks can be misinterpreted. What you need to realize here is... He fully believes he is her BROTHER right now. Also, they haven’t seen each other in years and the last time he had any contact with her, she was a dumb little girl full of stupid dreams who was a real b*tch to him. She even admits to it.

Not only that, but she has been through some horrible life experiences since she last saw him. She’s been tortured by Joffrey and Cersei, manipulated and sold off by Littlefinger, raped by Ramsey, almost dies running away from him... so OF COURSE she is going to be overjoyed to see him! Hell, for all she knew at the time, he was the only sibling she had left! She knew that because Jon was like her father, that he would never let any harm come to her... THAT’S WHAT BIG BROTHERS ARE FOR!!! Of Course he is going to be fiercely protective of her after everything he’s heard that she’s been through, not to mention the fact that (until recently) he thought she was the only sister he had left! ((Do none of you have an older brother?))

The looks between them, imo, are an admiration of how much they have changed and grown since they saw each other last. For her, she sees how battle strong and tactically smart Jon is, but that he has still kept his kind heart and it reminds her of her father.(Which is why she embroiders the stark cloak for him... “Like Father’s, or as close as I can remember”) For him, he sees how much she has grown as a person. She’s no longer that air-headed dreamer he once knew. She’s smart and she stands her ground. He’s proud of the woman his sister has become and he sees her strength, something she never had before. He is also aware of the things she’s lived through... and he does love her... but as a sister.

If I’m right about all of this, you will see the same looks (with a little added fear and apprehension) when he finally sees Arya again. Arya has always been his favorite sibling, but he won’t have to be as protective of her as he will of Sansa, simply because Arya can take care of herself, whereas Sansa is more the diplomat.

(The affection of a brother who love his sisters)

(Protective older Brother.... He can smell the horrible intentions on Little finger’s mind. This also mirrors when Ned did the same thing to him outside of his brothel over Cat... Protective like wolves)

(Because Arya- whom she is speaking to- and Jon were super close, he gave her Needle after all.)

(Brotherly comfort, both of them have been without family for so long and now they have each other, brotherly equivalent to the one below)

Now as far as Dany goes. Everyone keeps complaining that there hasn’t been any chemistry between them until episode 6 because he is secretly planning on betraying her. Let me explain how I think this is incorrect.

Of course they are not going to trust each other right away..... they’e never met before.Dany is frustrated because she can’t intimidate him into bending the knee. They are going to butt heads for a little while. especially because, for someone who knows nothing about WW... you sound nuts. She just wants her Throne, which frustrated Jon bc he knows he sounds crazy.He softens her up with the drawings in the caves and that’s when his glances start to hold a little longer... which makes him feel guilty. He’s still not fully over Ygritte. He blames himself for her death, and like he told Melisandra, he still loves her.

(Both are weary of each other, but feelings are blossoming, which is why Jon instantly shifts uncomfortably... that’s guilt people)

He starts to allow himself a few lingering stares, but he starts to feel guilty. He’s Jon Snow after all. He’s not going to move on easily, especially because he blames himself for Ygritte’s death. He also knows there are more important things to deal with at the moment, like building her trust and gathering dragonglass, and most importantly, convincing her that the threat is real. The way I see it, if he were going to knowingly betray her, why on earth would he not just agree to bend the knee straight away? Give her what she wants so she’ll agree to help and then let the Northern lords know what he was up to? Clearly, her final betrayal is going to eventually be revealed to her... so why drag out the whole “Bend the knee” crap?As they get to know each other, Jon starts to have feelings, but he’s still weary of her because she’s very temperamental and impulsive, and he does still need her. Be she eventually softens up toward him after Drogon approves, and she sees how kind hearted Jon is.

(This builds Dany’s trust in him, because Drogon has never acted this way toward anyone who wasn’t her before... so he must be worth her trust)

I don’t think Jon will allow his feelings to show completely until she proves her loyalty toward her people and to him. Risking her own life, and the life of her children for a bunch of people that most would have left to die (as Tyrion suggested) definitely showed him that she really cares for the people who choose to follow her. He mirrored her selflessness by standing between an entire horde of white walkers and Drogon, essentially protecting her son, and sacrificing himself in the process. The looks the give each other during that scene is very telling.

( He’s basically saying, “Leave me and save yourself”.)

Once on the boat, they still don’t fully know if they can trust one another. They still have only known each other a week or two, but there is no denying the feelings. Dany again proves herself to him by backtracking on her own word and vowing to fight with him no matter what. ( And No, even if he didn’t “bend the knee” afterward, she would never go back on that promise... the night king killed her baby!) I feel like the fact that she agreed to fight with him, even after her baby died, and even knowing the other two will be at risk of following him to an early grave, she broke down a few more pieces of his emotional wall... and he’s right, once the white walkers head toward Winterfell, and the entire Kingdom sees that she is willing to get on the battlefield and fight for them... they will join her as well and welcome her with open arms. I’m sure there will be some bumping of heads, especially if Jon returns to Winterfell before the wall comes down, but that problem will work itself out.

(This is sympathy for her loss and longing to comfort her.)

This scene shows how much they care for each other. She’s the Queen, yet she is sitting patiently by his bedside. His first words to her when he opens his eyes are, “I’m sorry, I’m soo sorry.” Instantly trying to comfort her, because he cares about her and her feelings. He knows how much the Dragons mean to her, but this still is just budding feelings. I’m sure we will see more of these little loving exchanges in the next episode.

However, I do feel like things may get a little rocky once Jon finds out that she had Drogon roast the Tarly’s. I predict Samwell will help convince Jon that, at the very least, his father deserved it. I also believe this will make Dany see the error of her ways. I believe Jon to be the Yin to her Yang. He and Jorah will be able to talk sense into her until Tyrion is able to prove his loyalty to her again.

As for the betrayal by love.... IMO,Viserion’s the betrayal by love. Her own child has been turned against her, and having to watch him kill 100s of 1000s of people is going to definitely feel like a major betrayal. It would also be poetic because Viserys betrayed her as well, by selling her off to Drogo. However, my little tinfoil hat theory is that since “only death can pay for life”. Viserion’s death will allow her to become pregnant with Jon’s baby.

The whole insest arguement is void too, because... If #Jonsa is true... he’s her cousin.. Daughter to his uncle. If #Jonerys is true, she’s his Aunt. Either way, they’re both related to him.

My final argument is “There must always be a Stark in Winterfell.” That Stark has to be Sansa. Bran no longer considers himself a Stark, as he said in episode 4. Arya doesn’t want to be Lady of Anything, so that leaves Sansa. I feel like Sansa and Gendry will possibly get together... finally fulfilling Robert’s wish to join the houses Baratheon and Stark.

Thoughts? Opinions?

#jonsa #jonerys #jonarys #game of thrones #got #sansa #daenerys #jon snow #dragons #targaryens #Stark

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