I think this shitshow with Toshiro stems from the trend of people INSISTING that interpersonal conflict must be a moral failing. Like I think there's something to be said about how people afford so much less patience to people who are autistic in the "wrong" ways, but also Laios and Toshiro just clash on a fundamental level that has nothing to do with that. Hell, you could read Toshiro as autistic as well. People related to Laios' side of the argument but instead of getting any nuance out of it they started projecting their experiences with ableist people onto Toshiro.
AGREE AGREE AGREE. i think that Fandom Brain gets people very used to thinking of conflicts in terms of "who is the bad guy and who is the good guy", so when they encounter a more nuanced conflict they don't really know what to do. i don't think toshiro is a bad person at all, in his conflict with laios he's just exhausted and starving and has been pushed to the limit and from his perspective, laios doesn't even seem that emotionally affected by the situation. i don't think what he said was right and it was pretty cruel, but i don't think he's a villain or deserves to be permanently hated as a character just bc he fucked up this time lol
also yeah you could definitely read him as autistic, and i think that highlights an issue in the autistic community in general bc like....... a lot of autistic people have conflicting needs which can lead to conflict between them/make them unable to stand being around each other. and it's not because either of them are neurotypical or bad people, they're just incompatible. like autistic people who loudly stim vocally and autistic people who meltdown when they have to be around loud noises, for example. it doesn't mean either of them is bad or not autistic, just that they have conflicting needs
i 100% agree with the last part too. i disliked toshiro at first myself bc i had been (and still do ngl) projecting onto laios hard and the conflict they had reminded me of times when people have been mean or angry at me irl for social blunders i've made unintentionally, or when someone i thought liked me/was my friend turned out to actually hate me. it's a common experience for autistic people and that scene resonates with that! but i think it also helps to take a step back from projecting our own traumatic experiences onto the scene and just look at it objectively. laios isn't perfect either and he's the one who actually starts the physical fight by slapping toshiro (i feel like i don't see many people mention this lol). i feel super bad for him in that scene but he's not a perfect victim and has done things wrong himself too
as an autistic person i've also been in situations where i can relate to toshiro too lol, like where someone is overly physically and emotionally familiar with me when we don't know each other well and i've wanted them to back off but haven't been sure how to say it without hurting their feelings. this kind of conflict is far from just being a "neurotypical vs neurodivergent" thing as a lot of people portray it in the fandom
idk i just wish people would think a little more deeply about the scene and put their own emotions and experiences aside to instead consider the conflict with the added context of the individual characters and their respective cultures + the situation they're in. people don't have to like toshiro but i wish they wouldn't paint him as a villain or make up awful shit about him just to justify their feelings when he isn't even that bad of a dude in canon yknow 😑. also we literally see him at rock bottom struggling and freaking out and i think that's important to remember. in a different context i doubt he would have ever said those things to laios
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realising today that not only was vernon trying not to laugh for the sake of the wider game, but he made it doubly hard for himself because he had a gob full of water and it would’ve given away his silly little joke. what a fucking. what a fucking guy
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a bit of thinking out loud on my part but i’ve been thinking for a while know about constantly slamming stuff for “bad writing”, more in the sense of “no one talks like that” or “this sentence was so badly worded” more than “it didn’t make sense in the end” as if it’s a deal breaker makes me think that we really moved too far away from suspension of disbelief and not wanting to just, fill in the steps kind of?
Like, i’m thinking about how ff7cc has some of the cringiest dialogues i could think of and some characterizations suffer a lot from that. When i don’t play the game for a long time, i’m always coming back to it and laugh at how they overuse “protect your honor”, or everything about Loveless, and stuff like that.
but when i want to seriously play the game too, i want to give the game a benefit of a doubt. Of, okay, i find it ridiculous but you’re taking it seriously, so i’m going to try to take it as seriously as possible. What are you doing to do with that.
And thanks to that i think i can properly experience some of the more visceral elements of the game, despite how much of its emotional core resting on this specific idea that i find cringe.
And it’s just like, idk, i think constantly wanting something to be really well written and getting rid of the cringe completely is kind of trapping yourself into an echo chamber where you’ll only get to hear the same old things. Eventually to experience new things it’s good to go into horizons that you’d consider cringe and try to see if there’s something you can get out of it, if you take it as seriously as ever. And sometimes cringe is unfiltered sincerity, which has its place especially in emotional story telling.
I kinda feel like there’s an overuse of “wanting realism” in stories (again “real people don’t talk like that”), that it’s easy to just close yourself from anything slightly challenging what you’re willing to accept as realistic.
in a way i’m just refusing to think “realism” is the same thing as “immersive” and if something is unrealistic to me, i don’t think it specifically breaks immersion and i care much more about immersion than realism. But even so, Immersion often comes with just, accepting what the story wants you to accept as normal. you have to do some work as the person receiving the story for it to work.
Feels stilted and boring and it’s kinda sad how often i see it brought up that “bad writing” in term of, clumsy sentence structure and stuff, can take someone out of something this badly.
I guess it’s just to each their sensibilities but, how dull....
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