#maybe Odin adopted them or whatever but biologically Loki | Explore Tumblr Posts and Blogs

clock-work-crow · 3 years

Text

I don’t care about DNA

So it's probably a terrible idea to post this, but it keeps taking up space in my brain that could be used to plot the next chapter of my story. Also I’m waiting for roadside assistance to come change the tire on my car. So here we go.

I'm a Sylki shipper, and I don't care at all if they have the same DNA or not. It does not matter to me. It matters to antis because they want to invalidate the ship. For you other Sylki shippers out there, maybe this post will help you also not care what the antis say about Loki and Sylive's DNA, because as soon as you examine the concept to carefully it all becomes absurd.

The first and most important reason I don't care is that a romantic and loving relationship is totally valid even if there are no biological children. It doesn't matter if it's a m/f couple who choose not to have kids or any kind of couple straight or queer that can't have biological children. Children do not validate a relationship.

But okay, for the rest of this post, let's assume that Sylvie and Loki have exactly the same DNA. They still are not siblings. They were not raised together, and they don't have the same biological parents. They are the children of two different men called Laufey, who also happen to have the same DNA.

And I know at first glance that may seem to indicate they are siblings, but here is the thing. If Loki's Laufey and Sylive's Laufey have exactly the same DNA, and that makes two people siblings, it means both Laufey's are also brothers. So now, not only are Loki and Sylvie siblings, but they are also first cousins on both their mother's and father's sides. So without doing anything, Loki and Sylvie are already about as inbred as a person can be, especially because so are their parents and their parent's parents, and everyone else in every timeline.

You can't draw cross-timeline family trees without complete and utter nonsense happening.

So they are not siblings.

Okay, but what if you are a Sylki shipper and you'd like a story where they have children. Welcome to the beautiful world of fanfic. There are two obvious answers, adoption, or a Modern AU, where they are just ordinary people because self-cest is not a thing that exists in the real world.

But what if you still want them to be their MCU selves and have kids? Here's where things get fun. If they have the same DNA, then any child either of them has with a third party is exactly as genetically related to Loki as to Sylvie. So go wild. This is perfect for an OT3, because no one is left out of being related to the child.

Is that not your thing? What about the story where Loki and Sylvie try to convince Tony Stark to be a sperm donor? Or the story about them interviewing women to be a surrogate?

Also, they are gods, so let's talk about mythological stories for a moment. We don't know what it means to be a God in the MCU. In the first Thor movie, there's the implication that the Asgardians just have more advanced technology, and so to humans, it looks like magic, but that's clearly not the case. Thor is the God of Thunder, not the God of Hammers. He doesn't have some sort of device that lets him summon lightning the way Stark uses his lasers/beam weapons. There is something innate to Thor's being that allows him to bring storms. Does that mean he has lightning DNA? No, there's no such thing.

And Loki is a shapeshifter. Does he even really have the same physical form the rest of us do? Our physical bodies are partially the expression of our DNA. So does that mean that Loki's DNA is as mutable as his form? The mythological Loki had a child as a horse, so that Loki must have had horse DNA.

Okay, I said I would assume they have the same DNA for the rest of this, but clearly, that makes no sense when you think of them as Gods and mythological beings.

So let's end on some weird sci-fi stuff that I can't help thinking about. If we pretend (because you know it's all make believe) that they are ordinary biological organisms with DNA they still aren't human. They are Frost Giants, and we don't know anything about Frost Giant biology. Loki says he was "created by a Frost Giant." Not by two. Probably he's just showing the male bias of his culture because a moment later, he credits Odin with being the one to raise him. But maybe not. Maybe he's hinting at something he knows about Frost Giant biology. Possibly they reproduce asexually? Who knows. It's up to the writer to decide.

Also, for those afraid that Loki and Sylvie will accidentally conceive an inbred child, I feel like I have to point out that birth control does exist in the MCU. I feel like Sylvie uses something (probably not the pill, how would you keep track of when to take it while time traveling?) because she couldn't let a baby slow her down as she ran from apocalypse to apocalypse.

But also again, she's a Frost Giant, there's no way they live thousands of years, but about every 28 days, the females become fertile. If they had the same reproductive cycle as humans, Jotenhiem would have been overrun with Frost Giants, and there would have been no elbow room.

Also, fun fact, human females are atypical. Unlike most other animals on earth, we don't let our potential mates know when we are fertile. We don't even know. Some animals go into heat, some animals have very specific mating seasons, just to name a few examples. So maybe Frost Giants know precisely when they are fertile, making it easy to avoid conception. (Bonus fact, menopause is also very rare. We only know about five species that go through it.)

The point is if you want to worry about DNA and sci-fi, then go crazy with it. They are not terrestrial creatures, and so there's no reason to think their reproductive systems are the same as our human ones.

And the thing is, Marvel/Disney is never going to tell us about their DNA. They don't care. The MCU isn't that kind of science fiction. The fact that they allowed them to be a cannon romantic couple makes me believe that the official stance is that they do not have the same DNA. Actually, I suspect the official view is that Marvel/Disney does not care. Regardless Loki and Sylive's genetic makeup is whatever the writer of a given story wants it to be.

And that's the point of this long ridiculous post. It does not matter. If you want to ship Sylki, then do it. Please don't feel bad about it. Don't feel like you have to justify the ship based on weird DNA arguments. Because the more you get into them, the weirder they get. If you don't like the ship, that's fine, but don't moralize about the DNA of imaginary gods from different timelines.

#sylki #lovedaggers #enchantricks #loki meta #or possibly loki bad sci-fi ideas

42 notes · View notes

yankeeclapdoctor · 5 years

Photo

That ScreenRant article came out and I’ve decided now is as good a time as any to pour my 7-year-old Loki headcanon analysis gasoline onto the discourse fire

Seriously don’t keep reading this if you don’t want to be bombarded with pieces of what has been in my head for the past 7 years i’m not fucking messing around my friends don’t have a choice to be attacked with this shit when i start talking in person but it’s the internet so you do have a choice. but for the record: I don’t condone his attempts at genocide or other violent actions, and I know it’s bad writing, and i am also aware that it’s 2018 not 2013. But I still love him. Thank you good day

SO I went through and wrote all over the Marvel profile for Loki and here are some things I have to say that can actually be backed up by canon evidence (I have my other headcanons that are just mine that can only be expressed in angsty fanfic but this isn’t the place for that):

In Thor (2011), Loki brings the Frost Giants to infiltrate Asgard on Thor’s coronation day. He tells Laufey that it was “to ruin [his] brother’s big day,” but we also know from his argument with Sif and the Warriors Three that he didn’t believe Thor was ready to rule yet (and he was right! he didn’t go about any of what he did correctly at all but he was right that Thor wasn’t ready and if he hadn’t been right there wouldn’t have been a movie). He doesn’t ruin Thor’s coronation because he wants to be king, he ruins it both because he’s THE GOD OF MISCHIEF and because he thought he was doing what was best for Asgard (which comes from him just being an entitled little pompous bitch but we all knew that already).

After he finds out that he’s a Frost Giant, he loses his fucking mind and becomes desperate for Odin’s approval and to be “worthy,” especially after having felt overshadowed by Thor throughout his life. Finding out that he was a Frost Giant and that Odin took him hoping to “bring about permanent peace through [him]” made him feel even more used and inferior, driving him to (understandably) lose it and try to prove himself “worthy” of being both Odin’s son and an effective person who can be powerful on his own, not just a pawn as Odin first intended for him.

As he says to Thor, he “never wanted the throne. [He] only ever wanted to be [Thor’s] equal”—and this is true, both before he knows about his adoption and after: before, Loki felt overshadowed because Thor’s physical strength and status as the heir gave him more positive regard (fuck. look at me using my psychology terms), and afterwards he wants to be Thor’s “equal” just in being deemed “worthy” of Odin’s love and in being seen as a powerful independent person. When Thor asks him why he’s trying to commit genocide he answers, “To prove to father that I am a worthy son.” He thinks that the only way to prove to Odin that he is worthy is to prove that he should be a king, because Thor who has been deemed “worthy” by Odin (and by Mjolnir) is the heir, and therefore kings = “worthy” so Loki should become a king so he can be “worthy”!!! He’s fucked up!!! THIS IS NOT TO EXCUSE HIS ATTEMPT TO COMMIT GENOCIDE AGAINST THE FROST GIANTS. THAT WAS NOT OKAY. I am just deeply psychoanalyzing his motives because Tom Hiddleston played him with this amount of emotional depth and I will prove it by analyzing everything.

Look at his eyes. what the Fuck. He’s so broken and hurt and out of his fucking mind. He doesn’t know what to do because he’s so angry that he’s a Frost Giant and hates that part of himself and wants to destroy it so he kills his fucking biological father and then tries to kill all the Frost Giants, rejecting them in an attempt to endear himself to Odin and the Asgardians while also believing he’ll never be accepted by them, especially Thor after he saw Thor go berserk on the Frost Giants at the beginning of the movie. and hearing Thor say anything contrary to the fucked up stuff he’s convinced himself of makes him lose it even more.

ANyway moving on. So Thor stops the genocide from happening which is great (would have been nice if he’d succeeded in stopping it in IW too but oh well bad writing), but after Odin says “no, Loki” instead of you know maybe helping his sons up onto solid ground before trying to have a conversation, Loki lets go and falls into the abyss, definitely believing that he’s gonna die.

The Marvel profile thing says he “arrives at the Sanctuary” and “meets the Other,” but it was definitely more like he fucking crashed there and got captured by Chitauri, brought to the Other who interrogated him about where he came from, brought him to Thanos, who then tortured him more.

like...im sorry but this is not the face of a guy who was welcomed into Thanos’s creepy rock lair with open arms and martinis. He was fucking tortured. Not be be 2013 on main analyzing every frame to prove this again but I’m going to: he stumbles when he’s walking with Clint and Selvig to leave the big science room, and he has trouble getting into the truck thing because he’s INJURED from TORTURE see:

ass

[Not to mention all the dialogue in this scene that could be things he was told during his torture and brainwashing/manipulation that he’s repeating back as part of his mindfuckery, but I’m not gonna talk about it bc i know it’s also j*ss’s bad writing not knowing how to write Loki or anyone else and im not getting into that discourse right now. but also for my analytical purposes in my headcanon all of Loki’s dialogue in his first scene in Avengers (2012) is what Thanos told him during his torture]

ANYWAY my point is that Loki was not only influenced by the mind stone; thank you Marvel for finally acknowledging that that happened, but

Loki was also tortured by Thanos and the Other prior to receiving the scepter

the Other threatens him with being tortured if he “fails” and “if the Tesseract is kept from us” and says “you think you know pain,” which could only refer either to him falling from the Bifrost and landing wherever the fuck he lands (whatever the fuck “The Sanctuary” is. Marvel you can’t just give things stupid cryptic names after the fact what the fuck that’s not fair), or to PREVIOUS TORTURE BY THANOS

the torture was physical as you can see from the everything about him in Avengers (2012), but also psychological as you can tell from his interactions with Thor throughout the movie. let’s take a look

ok well that’s sorta accurate to the feelings he had in Thor (2011). No evidence of brainwashing torture there. carry on.

See but that’s not right. Thor didn’t “toss” him, and while the influence of the mind stone could be warping his memory to make him think that, it would make more sense for Thanos to have used it or other torture to warp his memories to make him think that, to ensure that he would have this thought and this reasoning in his head before encountering his brother again [i know it’s really just bad writing shut up]. Thanos and the Other used Loki’s existing feelings of inferiority, thinking that ruling = worthiness, and resentment towards Thor to manipulate his memories, changing some of them with torture before giving him the scepter which then amplified those feelings and cognitive distortions (ha more psych terms) even more so he could carry out the plan to take over Earth. Playing on Loki’s existing resentment towards Thor made him willing to go after Earth, as he also pretty much says in this scene, so this all doesn’t excuse what he does. He isn’t being completely mind controlled. He’s been manipulated and tortured in a way that uses his existing negative feelings and tendency to create chaos as the GOD OF MISCHIEF to create violent action on behalf of a genocidal alien. Thor notices that when he asks this:

He recognizes Loki’s anger and resentment and twisted ambition from their last fight, but also sees from Loki’s descriptions of the tesseract’s power that his brother’s feelings have been manipulated and amplified by someone’s (and something’s) influence. His later interaction with Loki during the attack on New York when he appeals to him to stop almost works, in that moment people always screenshot to show that Loki’s eyes were blue and therefore he’s controlled by the scepter too oooooOOOOoooOOo (no guys Tom Hiddleston’s eyes are blue and Loki wasn’t controlled by the scepter in the same way as Clint and Selvig). Thor gets Loki to look at the violence around them and asks “do you think this madness will end with your rule?” and this gets through to Loki because he knows he’s not good at establishing order—he creates chaos because he’s THE GOD OF MISCHIEF. His ability to create chaos has been used by Thanos in a ploy to get the Tesseract, the idea that Loki would rule Earth used as vengeful motivation stemming from Loki’s pre-existing feelings of animosity and his earlier need to prove himself “worthy” that have been amplified by both his torture and the influence of the scepter.

IN CONCLUSION (for now): Loki can create chaos, not control or rule it (see: Thor 2011), but his breakdown in Thor (2011) made him desperate to prove that he can rule, that he can fix problems he creates: he ruins Thor’s coronation and it goes too far, getting Thor banished and nearly starting a war with Jotunheim. He tries to fix it in an attempt to prove himself “worthy” to Odin, but can’t fix it. Thanos uses this need he has to prove himself to make him wreak havoc on Earth to get the Tesseract, but the Avengers defeat him, and Thanos not stepping in to get the Tesseract then

shows that none of his plan was actually about Earth beyond trying to get the Tesseract and he used Loki’s resentment towards Thor to get to Earth for it

Marvel is bad at setting up long-term villains like Thanos and they should have done Secret Invasion instead because after Avengers (2012) they just fucking forget about him. because they should have introduced the other infinity stones earlier on so that him showing up made more sense. but whatever

So in actual concise response to Marvel updating the thing to say that Loki was influenced by the scepter/mind stone in Avengers (2012): yes thank you for finally fucking saying it and addressing one aspect of your inconsistent writing. We been knew. Loki was influenced by the scepter after being tortured and psychologically manipulated by Thanos and the Other between his fall from the Bifrost and the start of Avengers (2012). This does not mean he was not responsible for his destructive and murderous actions on Earth—that was fucked up—and he still very much did try to commit genocide in Thor (2011). I am not excusing that. However, he is a fictional character and I love him.

#loki #headcanon #im so tired #please dont talk to me about this unless you've read the whole post please #ive been thinking about this for so long #my analysis brain is exploding all the time #avengers #thor #mine

30 notes · View notes

prevariicator-archive · 6 years

Text

The problem with saying Loki ruled Asgard longer, and was a better ruler of Asgard than Thor, is VAST.

First off, Thor didn't have a fucking chance. He ruled for only a few hours if even before Thanos came and slaughtered the Asgardians because of LOKI stealing the tesseract in Ragnarok. You can not compare their ruling based on time. Thor needed the time to be away from Asgard to learn to be a good man, and to know his limits and when not to be a spoiled brat chasing war for no reason, and to learn what was important about ruling people/learning more about what it meant to truly protect people and the things/places he loved. He has major character development through the series that makes him a good king because he recognizes that the title requires more than sitting on your ass eating grapes watching bad theater.

The way they rule... Originally if he had been king in the first movie, Thor would have had Asgard at war at every turn. It would have been chaos. But after everything he's been through, going from God/Prince/Future King to Mortal/Weak to Slave/Possession (for someone's violent amusement )the character development changes how he would have ruled. He thought only for the best of his people, got half of them to safety with Valkyrie, and fought -most likely with the intent of dying for his people- until he had nothing and was completely broken. Thor's actions in Infinity War are flat out suicidal and fueled by rage and depression. He's lost everything - and it all started with Loki allowing Jotuns into Asgard to prevent his intended rule. But at the same time, Loki helped him be a better fit for a king by doing so. But Thor didn't have a chance to prove himself a worthy and good king before Thanos came and fucked shit up because Loki couldn't keep his hands off of the Tesseract. But, that brings the question of if Thanos would have come either way. Loki owed him the debt from his failure after all. But in both scenarios- he came because of Loki. Loki has ruled twice. Let's talk about instance number one- to get the title of king he a)let enemies into Asgard b)caused 4 deaths and showed zero remorse for what he'd done c)Had Thor banished (you can argue if this was intentional or not based on the movie and one of the Thor guidebook which says he intentionally goaded Thor into going to Jotunheim to get him in trouble with Odin) d) Only got it because Odin went into Odinsleep (you guys joke but this dude was already in poor health-poor enough for his enemy to take notice of his weakness- add the stress of his 1st son being banished because 'well fuck he's just like the banished child and needs to learn not to be' and the stress of Loki finding out who he really is/that originally he planned to use him and Loki refused to let him explain further and instead went full out pissed and yelling at a weak old man)

Now there is that deleted scene where Frigga gives him the title BUT IT DOES NOT FIT INTO THE MOVIE. Rewatch it, try to place that scene. It doesn't fit. Loki is playing King before he speaks with Frigga in that deleted scene- which was shortened and edited in after he's already playing king. It does not fully apply to the canon of the movie because of this technicality. So for all we know- he took the title without Frigga's knowledge. So during that first rule, what did Loki do? A)closed off the Bifrost to prevent Thor's return B)Sent the Destroyer to kill Thor, and even told it to destroy everything in the little town Thor was in -with no regard for the lives which could be lost because of his actions. C)Allowed Laufey into Jotunheim, and let's be real Laufey could have easily turned around, stabbed Loki, and then gone off to kill Frigga and Odin. D)Let Laufey hit Frigga, played perfect hero son only after Laufey was already on top of Odin about to stab him, and pretended not to know a thing, like 'Lol how'd he get here idk mother but I'll protect you even though he already flung you across the room'

Loki's rule should technically end when Thor returns. But even then, Loki has Gungnir, which is basically saying he's still in some way in charge and what does he do with this power? He takes the kings staff to the Bifrost with the intent of destroying an entire planet after already murdering his biological father/a king, putting Asgard in danger, and his own king and queen-his adoptive parents, in a very dangerous position. -Frigga may be good with small knives but she was struggling with that sword.

Let's move to rule 2.

Take into consideration everything he did in Midgard- bringing an alien army to attack the planet, killing over 80 people in like 2 days, causing destruction and chaos in New York which would later lead to the problems in later MCU movies that take place in Midgard (Spiderman Homecoming is a good example) and let' not forget having mind slaves he completely damaged. All of this was in his conquest to gain enough power to be king. But we know Midgard was never the end game for Loki- it was always Asgard. And remorse? Yeah, not really there. He has a brief moment of 'It's too late', but he uses that to stab Thor- meaning he was likely playing on Thor's emotions knowing Thor would fall for his puppy eyes.

So Loki's imprisoned (for showing no remorse and acting like everything is just a silly children's game-and Odin knows where it is headed because of Hela), he's not in any way a king or ruler of anything, but even in his cell he inadvertently causes Frigga's death in hoping to send Algrim/Kurse to Odin and Thor. 'I don't think the people of Asgard would take kindly to a king who murdered their predecessor' -So I'll send someone else to do it for me. (Because who is next in line if Thor and Odin die? Loki, you know if they hadn't decided to do that fuck up of 'lol Hela is their older sister now', but I digress.) The fact is Loki never shows real guilt or remorse until he realizes he is the reason that Frigga, the only person still giving him any chance and sneaking around to speak with him, died. So the story goes -he sets off, helps Thor, even protects Jane, and then fakes his death. Again. Both times were different though- I believe he truly believed he'd die if he let go of Mjolnir's handle based off the tie in Avengers comic-they believed Loki would be torn to shreds by the world tree. But in this fake death, it's all Loki. He gets up, brushes off, returns to Asgard.

So how does he get to be king the second time? He curses Odin, banishes him in Midgard in a retirement home -and never checks up to be like 'oh yeah whatever happened to dad?'- which leads to Odin being a homeless vagabond just chilling in Norway waiting to see his sons one last time. In the meantime, Loki gives Thor what he wants and sends him to Midgard. Of course, Thor says he returned to Asgard once in AOU- but did he really? He would have caught on that Odin wasn't Odin if he really had. (Really it's a shame they wouldn't let Joss focus on Thor like he wanted) - So that mention of going to Asgard in AOU-let's assume Loki was off doing Loki things and avoiding Thor. Which leads to Thor traveling the universe for YEARS trying to find answers about the Infinity Stones. -A mess Loki helped make worse, but that began in Captain America. (Thanks, Red Skull.)

So what's Loki doing while Thor's off trying to save the universe? He's ignoring Asgards duties, which leads to the Dwarves slaughter and the gauntlet being made (of course he may have thought he had the real and only gauntlet in the vault). Loki gathers up some bad actors, writes his own little play, erects a giant statue of himself, MOCKS FRIGGA'S DEATH by making his 'sacrifice' in avenging her a total joke in the play and by laughing at it, and maybe even hoes around with the servant ladies that surround him while he watches the play. Which if he did- further mocks Frigga and Odin.

Thor arrives and calls him out on his shit, his reign is pretty much done for. But Thor doesn't get the chance to rule, he has to clean Loki's mess and get Odin, and then he has to clean Odin's mess with Hela. Thor tries to prevent Hela from reaching Asgard, but Loki shouts for the gate to be open-if Heimdall was in charge of the gate and saw this shit he would have kept it closed. Just saying. So Loki gives Hela an opening to put Asgard and its people in danger- which if she had won in the end, would have led to death and chaos across the universe. But that's not how the story goes. Thor and Loki get thrown into Sakaar. Loki's been there for weeks and is just mingling and partying, making jokes about his first death, and while he's stolen ship passcodes-is making no real effort to leave and go fight for his people. But that is all Thor is worried about and wants to do. Even when Thor is a slave, locked up and unable to do much but fight to get his freedom, he only thinks of returning to Asgard to save the people. Loki even tries to prevent Thor from doing so for money.-and possibly being petty that Thor would not go with his plan to escape together and ignore Asgard, let it burn. Thor escapes, he fights for his people- and Loki turns up afterwards, only to ham it up and be a big diva like 'LOOK I AM BRINGING A BIG SHIP AND I AM SAVING YOU ALL WITH IT' -yes, he fights, yes, in the end, he pledges allegiance to Asgard, but his actions prior to his Infinity War death are not the actions of a good king, only a selfish man. He and Thor both understand ruling well, but they both understand different aspects, and Loki's is the toxic form, while Thor's is the good-natured and humble form. Combining them together=great king.

If Thanos hadn't of come, Thor would still have people to care for and rule over, but he doesn't. He has nothing. He's a space hobo now. His rule would have been much longer than Loki's, and, in an ideal world, they could have learned to work together to combine their understanding of what it means to be king. But that world doesn't exist.

#just my two cents #ignore me #i agree loki got to rule longer- but someone said loki did it better and uhhh hahaha no

4 notes · View notes