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shinjaeha · 3 years

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ipytm ep 3 (thoughts + spoilers)

this is going to be a tough post for me to do bc honestly...this ep just left me feeling so run down. i know that the cast and crew have always strived for realism and authenticity with this series, but this one was just a lot to take in :/ my thoughts are gonna be even more all over the place than usual but idec at this point. having to rewatch this ep again is really fucking hard (even harder than itsay ep 4 bc even though that makes my heart ache, i still feel some sense of satisfaction from the development we get...this just leaves me feeling defeated in every way).

you know the drill: not an analysis, just me ranting as usual bc free therapy (and boy do i need it after this one)!! i had so many feelings watching this ep (esp towards teh but what’s new), so here goes.

we begin with the drama students rehearsing for jai’s new play, and the introduction of the plum wine which will be the recurring motif in this whole ep. the use of the plum wine in this also kind of reminds me of how teh initially disliked coconuts until he started falling in love with oh-aew and started to like them instead...i’m guessing that’s the parallel they’re trying to draw with the plum wine comparison in this.

teh’s having a hard time getting into character (which we already know from last ep was always going to be one of the toughest challenges for him as an actor). his character in the play is supposed to have a sex scene, but he’s struggling with this bc he can’t put himself in his character (akin’s) shoes, so jai ends rehearsals early.

jai gives them all logbooks which he basically wants them to treat as diaries where they’ll write everything they feel/learn and hand it back to him (he’ll be the only one reading them). ngl this already had me feeling kind of yikes (esp now as i rewatch this knowing how everything went down) since jai already has inside knowledge about teh’s feelings on his relationship with oh-aew which he can take advantage of :/ more on that later though...

it’s sad to me that so much time has passed since teh’s argument with khim and he's STILL avoiding her. khim was someone that he respected immensely (and was such a great mentor for him) so it just sucks to see that their relationship has deteriorated so much since the first two eps. teh might have had his reconciliation moment with oh-aew last ep, but there’s still a lot that he’s not ready or willing to address yet.

i understand that teh’s just encouraging jai about his work when he tells him to stop having others comment on it, but at the same time, i disagree with him bc i think it IS important to get other peoples’ opinion about your work. how else will you ever be able to see things from other perspectives if you don’t?

anyway, teh tells jai he’s seeing a play, and jai asks teh if he’s bringing oh-aew...the look on teh’s face is telling enough that things aren’t going great between them (at least on his end). this brings us to the logbook scene, where teh’s homework for the day is to write about the similarities and differences between himself and his character in the play. this gets teh to reflect on how he feels his relationship with oh-aew is changing, or specifically, how oh-aew seems to be changing so much that teh feels like he’s becoming someone else entirely...and does that mean that he still loves him the same?

i feel like this is a fairly common issue with people that have been in a relationship for a while (and this is their third year together now), so i understand how teh might start having doubts. it’s nothing that oh-aew’s done, it’s just that sometimes all these small changes can keep mounting up to the point that they feel much bigger than they actually are. oh-aew’s really just doing what everyone else does, which is grow and change as they get older, but teh’s still stuck in the past trying to hold onto what they used to have instead of evolving with oh-aew. the way teh picks at all these little changes of oh-aew does make me think that he’s self-sabotaging himself. he’s just so afraid and insecure that oh-aew will change so much he leaves him, that he has to nitpick at reasons why oh-aew’s the one that’s growing away from him (though when we watch the whole ep we know that that’s not the case at all). it’s like a ‘if i push him away first, then he won’t push me away’ sort of self-defence mechanism. either way, teh’s a constant overthinker...and he’s always been his own biggest enemy since the start, so it makes perfect sense to me that he would do this to himself here too.

i know that they’ve been together for years at this point, so things are not quite as exciting as they used to be, but it hurts to see oh-aew be so happy about getting an A for his class, and teh be so unenthused about it. oh-aew has to basically beg teh to give him attention and praise. remember when teh used to get so worried when oh-aew did badly in chinese class...and now it’s like whatever to him just bc he’s not tutoring him/they’re not in the same major anymore :((( i know it’s prob both bc teh’s still hurting that oh-aew transferred majors, and from seeing oh-aew succeed while he feels like he’s failing, but still...

also, not inviting him to see the play with him bc he thought oh-aew wouldn’t be interested/oh-aew kept falling asleep whenever they saw plays together ;;; i get the reasoning from both povs, but it still is nice to be asked :(

so one thing i have to say about the progression of their relationship here is that i just feel this huge disconnect from last ep and this ep?? i know it’s bc of the time skip (since it’s a year later basically), but to go from the end of ep 2, where they’re promising to love each other forever, and then to teh feeling disillusioned/as though he’s falling out of love with oh-aew basically right after that?? it’s so jarring. i feel like we lose so much with these time skips bc the transition from ep 2 to ep 3 is never really shown, so there’s this lack of flow there. like we’ve skipped a step entirely and something’s missing. this is the disadvantage of only focussing on one year per ep since there’s not enough time to explore as much character and relationship development when we’re only seeing an hour long snippet of an entire year. it just makes things feel superficial since so much of what we should be seeing is missing...and we basically have to fill in all the gaps ourselves.

okay, back to oh-aew ranting to his friends about how he feels like his relationship with teh is fading away bc they don’t have the same interests anymore, but also wondering if that’s just normal for long-term relationships. bless that boy that came to ask oh-aew for his ig :’) at least he knows that he’s wanted and has options, even if he obv turns him down bc of teh (for now).

plug and mangpong are dating!!!!!!! and mangpong does a horrible job of trying to hide it 😂 sidenote, but i love the way pp delivers lines sometimes (like the “just shocked”), he’s so cute. plug and mangpong’s legs touching...and the wave of nostalgia that came over me (and oh-aew) during that ;;; oh-aew seeing their blossoming relationship would make him reminisce back to his own experience of falling in love with teh...when everything was still so fluttery and new. so when teh texts him about using his car to help jai move, he looks happy. like he wants to rekindle those feelings again too.

that being said, it’s kind of sad to me how even jai shows more interest in oh-aew’s major than teh (when he asks him for his opinion on how to get people interested in his play). oh-aew’s got some good ideas and is more than willing to help (esp since he wants to connect and find a common interest with teh again). also, just bc oh-aew doesn’t want to be an actor anymore doesn’t mean that he’s completely uninterested in it. god, watching this part again hurts bc oh-aew looks so happy and optimistic. he worked so hard to help teh (and jai) only for them to betray him like that. it made me mad originally, but now it just breaks my heart :(

jai’s running acting classes again for his play, and this time it’s a workshop to help them tap into their feelings. it’s like an intimacy exercise where they give one another consent to touch certain body parts. teh is still struggling a lot with this. i think teh craves intimacy, but as he doesn’t feel that connection in his personal life to oh-aew anymore, so it’s difficult for him to draw on his experiences. he can’t even remember the first time he had sex with oh-aew properly anymore. as usual, teh’s too in his own head to just go with the flow and ~feel things (which isn’t new since teh’s had problems with this since itsay), but it’s def something that he’ll need to learn how to do if he wants to become an actor. he’s trying, but the fact that he can’t get to that place makes him feel even more insecure than ever that he might never be able to get there. imo one of the reasons teh works so hard, and is as driven and ambitious as he is, is that he’s afraid that he’ll never be good enough. he puts so much pressure on himself, and the issue with that is that he’ll never be able to live up to his expectations that way.

teh is also very much alone now. oh-aew has his group of friends to talk to about his relationship with teh, but teh just has jai at this point. he’s pushed khim away...and he and oh-aew aren’t communicating effectively (which is also why they’re on SUCH different wavelengths in terms of where their relationship is at), so there’s literally only jai for him to talk to about all his relationship issues. and to me at least, jai seems to have ulterior motives (particularly when you consider that the subject matter of his play is pretty much the same thing that teh’s going through rn). it’s times like this when i do feel kind of bad for teh, but then again, he brought this upon himself the way that he almost always does...and it leaves me frustrated instead.

jai kissing his professor though...also their conversation?? i have QUESTIONS...

that whole interaction with teh when jai catches him spying on him and the professor was SO awkward. idk what it is about teh but i have never encountered a character that has given me as much secondhand embarrassment as he does. when he starts touching the bars and avoiding eye contact i just- why, teh why?????

moving on, i’m thinking there’s prob more to that scene that we don’t know about bc jai’s shifty like that...but it’s purpose is also to shift teh’s perception of jai. before this, he pretty much just saw jai as his friend and mentor, but seeing him kiss someone else pushes him to think of jai in another less platonic light. like the first spark of attraction.

the both of them go to see the mime show (babymime), and i know that the point of this is so teh can learn to just feel and let go the way that the mimes in this play do, but idk it’s just kind of funny to me the contrast between the last scene and this one.

the leg touching scene again but this time with teh and jai...thanks, i hate it :///

teh’s already feeling like he and oh-aew’s interests are making them drift apart, so by connecting with jai, it’s that initial feeling of attraction that he used to feel with oh-aew all those years ago. jai is that cool senior that he respects...he’s goal-oriented and has so much in common with him (in a way that he feels that oh-aew doesn’t anymore), so it doesn’t altogether surprise me that teh latches onto jai in this way. esp when all their conversations revolve around what teh’s most passionate about, and what dreams they’re striving towards in the future.

it doesn’t surprise me bc teh’s affections shifted in a similar way from tarn to oh-aew when he was first starting to realise his feelings for oh-aew too (though at least he and tarn were never officially dating during that time...)

there’s a genuineness to the way teh praises and encourages jai that isn’t there when he’s doing the same to oh-aew :( and that coupled with teh lying to oh-aew about him having dinner with jai while oh-aew is at home, completely oblivious, painstakingly photoshopping his boyfriend’s face on the poster of the play TO HELP TEH instead of doing his own uni work, makes me so fucking upset for oh-aew.

it’s interesting to see how different their personalities are even when it comes to something as simple as the way they read their texts. oh-aew is so ready to accept whatever teh tells him at face value, but teh overthinks everything to the point where he jumps to a certain conclusion in his head about it instead.

but yeah, it’s just really tough to see oh-aew try so hard for teh, only to see teh do nothing back for oh-aew in return. there’s only so much one side can give. it’s the absolute lack of effort on teh’s part to even try to make things work with oh-aew that is the most frustrating thing of all. oh-aew is carrying their entire relationship rn and it makes me feel all “and for what?? why should he even bother??” about it.

sneaking to sit at the river with jai is like this forbidden, new experience, so it just enhances that feeling of attraction that teh is already feeling towards jai. and esp when he starts telling him about his previous relationship with james, the significance of the plum wine, and how jai ended up breaking up with him. since it’s reflective of teh’s own experiences atm (even in how he kind of self-sabotages himself to push people/oh-aew away first), he clearly takes it to heart. and it makes him want to do an even better job since the play is an autobiographical one for jai. not to mention, teh supposedly being the only one that jai told his story to makes him feel ‘special’......and we all know how teh likes feeling as though he’s special to someone. you can see it in how dejected he is when he thinks jai only told him his story bc he wanted him to get into character better, but perks up the moment jai says he actually told him bc teh’s been doing such a good job (and to encourage him). like i mentioned before, teh’s already feeling vulnerable and isolated from everybody else, so hearing any sort of praise (and esp when it’s from someone that he looks up to as much as jai), is going to pull him in.

when they were hiding from the security guard i was like ughhh i know where this is heading and i. don’t. like. it........

the problem is that i know where teh stands on this. like i know that there’s some attraction on his end. but i don’t know where jai stands. is he intentionally manipulating teh’s feelings for his play? is there any sincerity there? i think it’s obvious that he can tell teh is attracted to him from the glance that they share in this scene, but i can’t get a handle on what he actually wants (which i guess is the point of making his character as mysterious as it is but still). and if he can tell, and he doesn’t actually like teh back in that way, it makes the end scene even more yikes imo.

hmmm teh lying in the pool trying to recreate that feeling right before their first kiss when the both of them just let everything go and sank down into the water. that’s how you KNOW the next scene is supposed to be angsty...bc just like how their first underwater kiss had a sense of sadness to it bc they were hiding, their first (on screen) sex scene has that same sense of sadness, only this time it’s bc teh’s using his attraction to jai/his method actor desire to get into character to fuel the sex instead of bc he genuinely just wants to have sex with oh-aew. and if his reasoning for the sex is bc of that, then his task to recreate their first sexual experience will never live up to the actual first time they had sex (when they BOTH wanted it, and there were no other factors involved).

that’s not to say i don’t think teh doesn’t love oh-aew anymore. i think that there HAS to be some level of love still there amidst all of the confusion, but it feels a lot more like he’s testing his love/attraction to oh-aew during this scene (sort of like how he did with tarn in itsay) than a proper ‘love scene’. like he’s trying to reconfirm his feelings, whilst using oh-aew as inspiration for his role at the same time. it makes my heart ache that this is the first love scene we get from them this series, and it’s marred by the context of what we know is going on in teh’s head. like i said, it’s this permeating sadness throughout...and just knowing that oh-aew has absolutely NO IDEA what’s going on with teh and why he suddenly wants to have sex makes it worse. oh-aew’s been trying to make things work, and in his mind, teh spontaneously coming over like this prob makes him think that things are getting better between them since this is also the closest thing to teh showing any sort of initiative to work on their relationship in this ep so far...

and that’s not also taking away how beautifully this whole scene is shot. i’ve always loved the way that teh and oh-aew play and flirt with each other (bkpp’s chemistry is honestly unparalleled!!) so it was nice to see them be kind of playful before they started kissing again (if you ignore how sad this scene really is). i LOVE the inter-splicing between their first time on the beach and the present. the way the score swells, and little moments where you can see their feet and fingers interlocked on the beach. it gives you such a visceral visual (and totally takes me back to itsay days when that sort of imagery was used a lot more). i just hate that since we know the truth, this scene is more uncomfortable than satisfying despite how nicely shot it is.

i wish we got more domestic moments from them. i know their relationship has sort of grown past those initial moments of flirtation, but it truly makes me sad that we don’t get to see more of them as a couple in general in ipytm. moments like this where they’re lying in bed cuddling each other are so few and far between that i always feel like i have to cherish every little fleeting piece of fluff that i can get. even if idek if this can really be called fluff since the context sort of ruins it.

oh-aew’s still got his heart attack bag :’)))

he was soooooo happy when he met up with his friends 😭 but also, how the hell is it possible for teachers to move deadlines up like that. i FEEL that panic... poor oh-aew...

teh’s in rehearsals again and this time he’s wearing his moon shirt which...i do NOT need those ep 3 itsay vibes rn when i was already dreading this last ten minutes with everything i have in me :((( but anyway, jai’s brought plum wine to class and we know that teh doesn’t usually drink, but he does this time. he tells teh that the taste will change over time (it symbolises the ageing of the relationship process), and teh says it’s a pity he won’t get to taste it next time since jai wants to go abroad to study. then teh tells him he’s worked on the acting exercise and wants to try it out with jai, and i feel like we all knew where it was going to go from here.........

they really had to hammer it in with him missing oh-aew’s call too huh :/

as soon as they started the touching/intimacy exercise again i was just waiting for the catch. even on this rewatch i’m still sitting here chanting “don’t do it teh don’t do it” knowing full well that he kisses jai and there’s no changing that. but then when they cut to oh-aew walking up the stairs with the posters and you hear just how much time he’s sacrificed to help teh/jai on this...sacrificing time EVEN NOW just to go over to their uni to give them the posters when he has a presentation due tomorrow that he and his friends still haven’t finished working on...it’s just heartbreaking knowing what he’s going to end up walking in on.

whether it’s itsay or ipytm, teh’s default state is confusion. so while i think that there’s a certain amount of attraction towards jai there of course, i kind of get the feeling that he’s confusing his feelings of connection with jai (bc of their shared interests and passion) with him falling in love with jai. i feel like his attraction to jai reminds him of what it was like when he was first attracted to oh-aew, and since things have changed so much between him and oh-aew, it’s like he wants to recreate and capture that feeling again with jai (which is also why he wears the moon shirt...he wore that during itsay ep 3 beach scene, which was the moment when the attraction really started to burn between him and oh-aew). he can’t feel that same spark with oh-aew anymore, so he transfers his feelings to jai since, at this point in time, he feels closer to jai than anyone else. instead of growing alongside oh-aew, it’s like he’s choosing to revert back to a time when he was happier.

we know that teh has always been the type of person that will act on his impulses when he feels them. that’s WHY it was so hard to watch...bc i knew while watching that last scene, he was never going to restrain himself or put a stop to those feelings bleeding over into action. and esp not when it could benefit him in some way with his acting too.

in the end, it just makes me so devastated for oh-aew. and i really hope that he doesn’t let this go bc he thinks it’s just teh method acting or getting into character or whatever...i know that teh’s feeling a lot of conflicting things rn, but that’s not an excuse. he really fucked this one up.

the thing is, it’s not that i don’t think teh is capable of acting this way (i’ve seen a few people say that this is ooc for him, but it really isn’t? this confusion and impulsiveness has always been a part of his character from the very start...he was always the one that had the most trouble dealing with his feelings out of the two of them), but the time skips don’t do him any favours bc we lose all those moments that take him to what he’s currently feeling. when we don’t have those moments, then it’s a lot harder to sympathise with him. in itsay, bc we always knew how teh got from point a to point b, even if he did frustrating/silly things, i always understood where he was coming from. i always felt for him. i GOT his struggles, which was why i was always able to empathise with what he was going through. in ipytm, he just comes off as unlikeable bc of how superficial his feelings seem (from what we’re being shown on screen at least).

falling out of love with your significant other/starting to feel things for someone else is obv a fairly common experience, so i don’t blame teh for FEELING like this, but it’s how he treats oh-aew throughout this that doesn’t sit right with me. even if you feel like you’re falling out of love with someone, or that they’ve changed since the first time you fell in love with them, you’d think there’d be some motivation to at least TRY to make things work with them before giving up. we never see that from teh at all. instead, he just see him becoming infatuated with jai (so we barely see teh/oh-aew together in the first place). and while i can see now that a lot of this is due to his own insecurities and inadequacies, it’s also just so disrespectful to oh-aew who's the one that we see putting in all this time and effort (it calls back to their whole “don’t give my time to others” scene in itsay bc we see oh-aew giving so much of his time to teh through helping him out with his play, while teh’s giving that time that should be for oh-aew to jai now). no matter his reasoning, watching teh act that way towards oh-aew does make it increasingly hard to root for him. there’s just too big a disparity in how the two of them choose to act and devote their time to their relationship.

what’s frustrating is that in itsay, teh would fuck up but he would always try to make amends with oh-aew in some way. he would always come forward to try to sort things out after...but there’s nothing here. even after their dinner fight in ep 2, it’s OH-AEW that reaches out to him first (even though it’s teh’s fault that they fought in the first place). where’s that boy that dressed up in his old school uniform in order to talk to oh-aew at his school? or made a whole chinese idioms scrapbook for oh-aew? or gave up his uni admission for oh-aew? i understand that characters and motivations change (and he was obv hopped up on his first love with oh-aew at the time), but it’s just really, really sad to see teh keep messing up and not even try to meet oh-aew halfway with this. yes, you can fuck up, but there are only so many times you can keep fucking up before it starts to look more like a pattern of shitty behaviour than a few forgivable missteps.

another issue is that there’s been so much focus on teh and his flaws that a lot of the time oh-aew comes off as a side character to teh’s story. previously, i understood that since teh was grappling with his sexuality. it made sense that his journey was the primary focus of the plot and character development. but i always felt that there was more room to explore oh-aew’s story (and i thought that we would get a lot more of that in ipytm...esp after ep 1), but it just feels like we kind of skimmed past all of oh-aew’s growth and struggles adjusting to bangkok/uni life so we could turn the attention back to teh again. i just hate that we never get to see more of how oh-aew’s changed in teh’s eyes (other than the surface level things like his hair, new car and major), and that we never get to see more of oh-aew’s life when it’s not related to teh in general. i hope that we’ll get more of oh-aew in the last two eps, but i really don’t know what they’ll give us anymore.

at this point, i don’t even want them as endgame anymore given everything that’s happened in the recent ep. and it pains me so much to say that bc teh/oh-aew are so immensely important to me, but they’re just in such different places in life. and teh esp has so much more growing to do (i think i said this last week too? teh...). oh-aew deserves to be with someone that can see his worth as he is (that won’t cheat on him for one!!). i just want him to be with someone that can make him happy. what i wanted most for them out of this was for the two of them to grow to a better place (together and as individuals), and while i still want that for them as individuals, it’s hard for me to want them to be happy together anymore. at least for the time being.

i’m kind of at a loss for how they’re gonna work through this (and i genuinely want oh-aew to be able to explore his options too...particularly with someone that will actually treat him better than teh’s treating him atm). so at this point it’s kind of looking to me like a break up is inevitable? but i do think it’s necessary for both of them rn. i feel so heartbroken about it though...like ipytm is actually making ME go through the breakup...breaking up with all my beloved itsay teh/oh-aew memories :((( anyway, i think a break up is also conveniently the best time to put a time skip tbh...so we’ll see if that does end up happening now in future eps.

this one took such a long time to write up bc i wrote like a quarter of this RIGHT after i finished watching the ep (so you can clearly tell which parts were me right after the ep, and which parts were me after i had some time to sit on what happened 😂), but i thought it was best to take a bit of a break. i didn’t rewatch it again until i calmed down a little and sorted out my thoughts some more (though i know this is still pretty messy). but yeah, i’m still very much interested in watching how they things are going to progress from here...but i can’t deny how sad i’ve been feeling after this.

#i promised you the moon #ipytm #text #i feel like i always need to rewatch ipytm eps bc i'm so HEATED during the first watch #but then by the second one i've usually calmed down so much more #like i obv still have a lot of things that i'm not super happy with (and rewatching this again didn't really bring me joy) but still #i get so invested in itsay/ipytm that sometimes i just gotta take myself out of the situation and go live my life for a bit #i was meant to post this yesterday bc it's been sitting in my drafts for too long but i just woke up (it's 2am) so what better time hah

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cruddyborderlandstheories · 5 years

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Fanon characterization of the Calypso twins between me and The Wild West Pyro:

We both have the strong sinking feeling that the twins are slowly going to lose it as the game goes on, so here’s our collaborated analysis of the two:

I’ll be in non-cool text, while The Wild West Pyro will be in italics, for easier distinction between us. [There will be slight edits and changes for cohesion]

“It would be pretty interesting if we found out the Calypsos/the cult started out with 'good intentions'.”

“Hell, you can see the populism kicking in there.What did the writers say? Ah. "Your poor bandits! You're kicked around and nobody likes you, but we can give you a purpose in life! We can make you feel appreciated and loved!" [This is a reference to the Danny Homan interview] Something of that line.”

“oh yeah! the twins are also providing them with food and weaponry. i mean i can see why a bandit desperate for something better would follow them.”

“I'm guessing how this goes: The Twins start off by winning people over by talking about how they want Pandora to be finally at peace after endless war and giving the bandits a new life where they're treated like actual people. Then once they've got enough people, they say that the Raiders have to go, the corporations have to go, with the Vaults seized the universe will see no more war. Actually, I'm predicting rn that they have a very, very cult-like end goal in terms of IRL parallels.What if they choose to "cleanse" the universe with whatever power Tyreen possesses? And once everything standing in their way is gone, they can create this ideal utopian peaceful universe where there's no corporations and no more fighting. Meanwhile the Eridians are panicking because they know it's a doomed plan and the Vaults do not work like that.”

“[this is very much a] large scale Opportunity situation. literally reverse uno card as to what jack was attempting”

“Yep. Paradise for the common man bandit. OTL parallels to what usually sparks communist revolutions or popular revolutions in general. So yeah, Tyreen could very easily justify herself in that she genuinely wants to bring peace to the universe, with all means necessary. Of course, internally, the Twins just want to be gods and play at being them and hold onto their power as absolute rulers presiding over an eternally-grateful populace.”

“definitely sounds like two teenage cult leaders to me ngl. i could see them not being too secure in themselves (behind the vvv confident personas they put on) and constantly second guessing themselves and reassuring that they're doing this for everyone's own good even as things just keep getting worse and worse. could [have] a tie-in to whatever tragic backstory they might have”

“Yep and yep. And there's this internal fear that they don't know what being a god entails, if they'll lose sense of who they are or not... but put that aside. All for the greater good! I'm actually thinking about this. People note that the Twins are basically streamer critiques, which is a yes. But if you want to take them to serious universe-spanning villain territory, I think that they'll absorb the knowledge from Elpis at one point. And they start to become more detached and more frightening, and a lot more eloquent as they really start becoming gods in the BL sense. While still being narcissistic attention whores who actually like killing people off with their powers but pretend to act benevolent. Essentially, you have the Greek Gods except there's two Zeuses, one is a girl and they've both got all of Zeus's worst traits cranked up to eleven.”

“oh god are they gonna dick everything that moves? oh no... cover ava's eyes! joking aside, that sounds accurate. especially given the borderlands universe loves to tie in its greek mythology. also also i am glad someone else agrees the twins are going to elpis. i refuse to believe they'd destroy it/blow it up before going there for the info. that shit is valuable! especially if you want to convince people you're gods?? accurately predicting the future is insanely good for doing that! plus all the other cool shit you can do by knowing exactly what's going to happen.”

“It also makes the Twins much more dangerous if they can see every outcome...unfortunately, Lilith is very good at playing 4D Chess by now.”

“lilith, putting on her sunglasses and cracking her knuckles: it's time to show them what a real military organization can do. ellie is her hype woman with the drink and a towel. also also lilith is probably kicking herself for not being fast enough this time to punch the vault symbol into tyreen's face.”

“Honestly, I'd love Lilith to turn out to be this really crafty, really charismatic guerrilla warfare commander. Like an Innie leader but they're hypercompetent, not a terrorist and also have Keyes's sheer talent for analyzing battles and tactics and adapting accordingly. Lilith sitting up in Sanc-III being BL!Keyes except a lady and specializing in ground warfare would be sick.”

“yes. fucking. please. gearbox please give lily all the character development, your girl deserves it. im glad because it does seem like she's getting there when you crash land on Promethea. and even the way she handles herself on the bridge is very smooth and confident.”

“tfw you can see the future and, yet, the lady you robbed of her siren powers is outsmarting you 24/7, 365 days a year despite you being able to see the future. also you're trying to fight fate and desperate to change reality so that you can't lose like the future said you would. joke's on you, you cannot fight it.”

“There is no changing it. bonus points if ty only saw the very end, so she is utterly clueless on how the middle bits play out. so lilith is kicking her ass across elpis and she's like ‘this is NOT how i saw this going’.”

“I'd seriously imagine that life in BL corporate society really is like life in Rapture or Columbia. The upper class profits immensely and reaps all the best goods, but they refuse to do the dirty work themselves so they rely on this huge workforce who they constantly cheat, lie and exploit. The few achieve huge power and stuff at the expense of the many. Looking at the Twins in the parallels of how revolutions go, they'll basically go from recruiting the bandits to recruiting the huge lower class of every planet. Looking at records from all the planets, we've got people being screwed over again and again, corruption and other nasties. The Twins claim that they want all corporations to go, to bring some form of unified government back to the galaxy. And it works- their army size quadruples overnight and goes from there. By the time we get to Promethea, the COV are already recruiting everyone dissatisfied with corporate life. If they successfully seize control of Maliwan like I predict, they'll be a force to be reckoned with. The Twins will use the masses to achieve some sort of theocratic revolution, [they] claim that it's all for everyone's good. But in reality, they want to be absolute rulers of the universe, gods worshipped and feared by all.”

“Oh yeah, the twins are definitely feeding (maybe literally) off the huge numbers of dissatisfied people across the universe- the mega corporations are evil, no doubt there are millions of people waiting for something better. tbh, if gaige wasn't booted from the main game, I could see a whole side story of her having started a revolution somewhere, and then joining up with the Crimson Raiders once her entire party just up and joined the CoV. And [I would] 100% bet the twins started a campaign against DAHL and Atlas and suddenly nearly every bandit on pandora joined up with them. (also Athena was sitting in a chair clutching at the armrests and janey was like "don't you fuckin dare, hon" and athena is like "but... Atlas...")”

[We talk more about Gaige’s anarchist revolution and trying to topple the mega corporations in a less cult-y fashion here]

“... Bonus points 2: The COV fire up the memories of Jack to rally everyone into opposing Hyperion and suddenly Athena is like "OK I'm not going, mobilize the army." And Janey is like ‘Here we go...’.”

[we joke around a little bit more about Athena and Janey here]

“I can imagine Rhys's internal conflict, knowing that he has to make the galaxy a better place but at the same time, maintain his corporate power and control because without it, he's doomed. Then again, Rhys is no stranger to doing shady stuff. I think a lot of the Twins's evil will be in how they treat their followers.There's all the smooth-talking and promises of the future. And then when you actually get there, you're brainwashed into being another unthinking, 100% loyal attack dog for them. And you follow everything they ask you to do for 100%, even if they use you for power experiments or cannon fodder. And the game will remind us that these people weren't all bandits - over the course of the story, the COV includes people like former corporate execs, entire families, people who were just trying to get by day to day. And now we as Vault Hunters have to kill all these ordinary people to save the universe. Tough choices, eh?“

“Oh geez, you know that's a really fair point. i know borderlands likes to push the 'morally gray' aspect of things, but holy shit that's dark. (not saying i don't love it though, i totally do lol) You’re probably 100% right that rhys is struggling internally. especially after being so closely tied up with hyperion and even fiona and sasha, seeing exactly what hyperion did to people not just on helios but the people trying to live their daily lives and survive on pandora. im sure he has a similar reasoning to himself as the twins: im doing this for the better of the people. i can help so many more people with this money and power. somewhat similar to handsome jack, but hopefully lorelei (if she's not evil) helps ground him and keep him from jumping into the middle-to-deep end.”

“I'm still betting that Rhys will remain on the good side, if a teensy bit unscrupulous. I mean, the whole thing about the Twins is that they're social commentary of livestreamers and influencers and the incredibly toxic influence they can have. There are countless aspects of that to explore. If streamers can mobilize their entire loyal fanbases to bully the crap outta some poor chump or buy things or let their fans believe that they know the streamer 100% as a person and not a persona, the Twins can convince people to go to war.”

“Oooh yeah, it's not hard to imagine they probably don't even need the brainwashing for a majority of their cult, just the select few who are either on the fence or against it, but are [still] 'available'. irl streamers can be seriously fuckin scary, man, im not surprised this is the route gearbox is going for. now, it would be severely fucked up if there was a scene where tyreen demands someone kill themselves on the spot and they do without hesitation. if you watch the moze gameplay there seems to be a hint of something like that going on over the radio/TVs, she mentions something about their sacrifice or something, then you hear a dude screaming/gurgling.”

“Everyone's thinking that Tyreen will be this laughable, entertaining villain. But I'm constantly seeing hints and estimating that she is going to be far, far more scarier than we give her credit for. For one, Jack was a presence largely relegated to audio. We only physically saw him in BL2 twice. The Twins run a cult, which itself is frightening already. And it looks like we'll be seeing them in person very often.”

“Oh yes, tyreen is fucking terrifying. i mean even that she can steal siren powers is already a huge "whoa what the fuck" in my book. that one line at the end of the HBC where she's like "you're my most loyal follower vault thief, you just don't know it yet"? fucking scary, how her voice drops and gets all serious for a split second and then the hologram just cuts out. i was like "wh- wait hang on-???" i definitely think she is putting up a persona and as the game goes on we're slowly going to watch her lose it. troy will probably grow a bit distant from her as well if he doesn't lose it, too. definitely think ty is going to try and kill him once he's of no use to her, because he's just been a pain in her side because she had to keep him alive as the brains of the operation. but once the operation is done... whoops. sorry pal. don't need you anymore. they're the main villains, i can't see her holding the bonds of family in high regard at all. she could totally write off his death as like ‘he sacrificed himself for the Great Vault, now we pray to him every day and sacrifice ourselves in his name’ or smth”

“She puts up this fun-loving persona as a streamer, but she then decides the Vault Hunters get to see her true self. It is not pretty. It makes Jack look like a kitten-cuddling fluffball, that's how bad the real Tyreen is. It makes Piston and Vasquez sound like friendly guys you'd take out for lunch after work. It makes Hector's goals look very reasonable and sane. Also, perhaps she kills him and we never see how she did it, which ups the scare factor. It's like Troy disappeared and we have no idea how she killed him and how long it took for him to die. We just find a lot of irreconcilable proof that Troy is dead now and we don't know how. That is the amount of horror I'm estimating.”

“Oh man I love this. That's so horrible (in a good way), I can 100% see it happening. Jack swore revenge for us killing the person he 'loved'. Tyreen herself kills the person she 'loved' and we start to realize holy shit this is the real deal. She can't even pretend to care like Jack pretended to care (he didn't actually care about Angel as a person, but he did say things to try and make Angel think he did, just putting that out there cuz I don't wanna sound like I support him lol). There's just a complete contrast between her and Jack during the final levels of the game. Jack stops joking around "you feel that, child killer?", he's dead serious and ready to kill vs Tyreen laughing or just being off the rails bubbly for her 'streamer persona' while looking utterly unhinged”

so yeah, the convo teetered off after this a bit, but the general gist is that Tyreen is going to go absolutely off-the-wall by the end of the main story. this is somewhat supported by the Danny Homan interview that states the twins are going to have their relationship warp and twist.Tyreen is going to start going crazy with all the powers she absorbs and realize once the plan is over she won’t need Troy’s expertise anymore, and Troy is going to get sick of being relegated to the side when he’s the one with the master plan. We both have the deep feelings the twins aren’t going to stay as charismatic as they are in the little bit of promo material we’ve gotten of them. which i get, because in a lot of the official trailers, Troy looks pissed. Tyreen is always super smug no matter what shot she’s in, but Troy... he looks very angry in some shots we get. even when Ty is holding his forearm in that one shot, he rips his arm out of her grip. For example: “How many IRL streamer "friends" get into ridiculous drama and feuds with each other? Answer: a lot. Could be mirroring that with the twins. A lot of people are saying that the new villains will never match up to Jack. This is our take, and we're proud of it, and very confident in Gearbox's new writing team. ”

EDIT: some edits made by The Wild West Pyro

#borderlands #bl3 #borderlands 3 #the calypso twins

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yvvaine · 6 years

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What do you think of Jon + Dany?

Well I’ve already answered what I think of the romantic pairing (Spoiler! Some pretty hot, scathing tea and a couple of fart noses sprinkled in)

So I’ll answer this question a bit differently - keep in mind my opinion is pretty much book-based (though I feel like the show is at least trying to give off this vibe, even if they fall short a bit with Jon’s characterization and are further along in portraying where I think Dany will eventually end up):

Both are grey characters straddling the line between light and dark. It’s prob why there are some interesting parallels on the surface - its when you get to the end of these parallels that they fork off a bit in their handling or their decisions. While there are better narrative examples of this i think a great metephor just to get the basic idea would be that wonderful image in the show of Dany and Jon holding out their hands in the White Walker battle, which seems a perfect parallel to when Ygritte did the same when the two were scaling the wall, but ends much differently; Jon grabbing Ygritte’s outstretched hand, and Jon rejecting Dany’s. A parallel that forks off with different, often opposite, decisions.

So Both are grey characters, however, if there is a line perfectly in the middle, I see Jon as off to the light side of that perfect 50/50 line, and Dany on the darker. Thats not to say they both haven’t had their problematic moments and what not (the show has been less effective in portraying Jon this way and tend to leave out a lot of these instances). Or their good moments either. And they’re both still firmly in the grey area. But i feel the image definitely sums the whole ‘hero of the other side’ thing. They’re foils, inverse of one another, two different sides of a coin. Which is why its so easy to mistake them as the same breed, for lack of a better term; a purposely misleading narrative that will most definitely be used to enrich and shock the story, especially toward the end. Its a plot device GRRM will surely use, considering how infamous it would make his stories, and he is definitely a good and well thought writer if nothing else.

And the further down the rabbit hole the two of them go, the further their decisions and world views cement and push them toward their roles as “hero” and “villian”. But neither term actually exemplifies their respective character because they’re still grey colored, and those terms are literally (and metephorically) black and white. And since they’re both sympathetic characters, whose POVs we see regularly, and their journeys takes place over many books and a long period of canon time, its harder and harder for the GA to not get invested (hence many’s shortsightedness) - which is less an indictment on say the audience’s intelligence or understanding of the story (esp for those that don’t see it; its only the people who purposefully refuse to respectively and openmindedly consider the theories and opinions of others that i think really merits the term ‘ignorant’), and more a mark of how compelling and amazing GRRM is as a writer to pull such a tricky thing off. I doubt many writers could do the same.

I sympathize immensely with Dany and her hard, often horrible journey. And for the most part she’s just trying to do the best she’s able under difficult circumstances. How i interpret her, however, is not as the heroine of the story, despite her good intentions, more as the anti-hero, or the tragic hero:

The tragic hero is a longstanding literary concept, a character with a Fatal Flaw (like Pride, for example)[or in Dany’s case ignorance, an easy temper, and shortsightedness] who is doomed to fail in search of their Tragic Dream [in the show its more the iron throne, for the sake of the IT, and Book!Dany is getting there for sure, but for the most part rn in the books its Westeros for the sake of this intangible dream of ‘home’] despite their best efforts or good intentions.

Concept wise, a tragic hero can be BOTH an antagonist and/or a protagonist, and even as the “villain” is usually recognized as the Tragic Hero by the audience’s sympathy toward them/their plight.

I looooove Dany’s character. She was originally my all time favorite, and though after the first book is no longer my first favorite, is still in my top five. She’s well fleshed, complicated, good, bad, and open to lots of different interpretation. I know some people absolutely hate her (more show fans I think), and while many consider me an “anti” esp. as I don’t think she’s a “hero”, or that she makes a good, effective queen, and I still believe she is doomed for darkness - that doesn’t mean I hate her. I still love her regardless of all this. I feel bad for her. And i think the story would severely suffer without her in it. I also think she’s a character right out of Homer or Shakespeare’s writing, or Tolkien’s, or a Greek tragedy.

If I had to choose which character I loved more: it would be Dany. If I had to choose a character i think will be closer to villian than a hero out of the two, it too would be Dany. The beliefs are not mutually exclusive.

And I can see how it seems I might be “picking” on Dany to some, as I dont mention or discuss Jon nearly as much, but honestly thats just because I find Dany wayyyyyyyyyyyy more interesting and thought-provoking of a character

There’s a lot of accusations that people who criticize Dany are ‘hating on her’ just because she’s a strong, powerful woman, esp. when they dont speak out about other characters as much, and Im sure that may be the case for some as this fandom does have a good amount of bad apples, but thats not why I criticize or appear to focus on her at ALL. For instance, I dislike and hate book!Tyrion (show Tyrion is fine) WAY more than I criticize Dany (who i like). Like vehemently dislike him. I just don’t feel the need to talk about it because the analysis is pretty straight-forward and doesn’t change much. But Dany always changes, at least for me, especially the more I read different theories or interpertations that either coincide or differ from my own. I never get tired of peeling her layers like an onion, or reevaluating my opinion of her. This ended up being way longer than I thought lmao.

#anti jonerys #daenerys targaryen #im a little on the fence about putting it in this tag but its not anti really ??? Still ill tag #anti daenerys #just in case and if any of you want me to take it down for some reason i will #jon snow #i dont want to be disrespectful #but its also an anlysis of her character and not like omg i hate her!! shes horrible!!#mine

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dent-de-leon · 7 years

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@wonderfulwaytooweird ok putting this under a read more caus it got a bit Long sorry ;;

alright, why i ship sheith, here we go:

This idea of sheith comes from a lot of these small, subtle cues that are pretty blink and you miss it. For instance, that part when keith sees shiro again—the way he holds his face and tenderly turns it a little reads as distinctly romantic to me. There’s this…vulnerability to their interactions we rarely see afforded with anyone else. In the first episode of season 2 you see just how comfortable they are with one another, how shiro lets the whole leader persona slip when its just him and keith. They also have a lot of these quiet little moments in season 2 especially where they check in on each other, and it just comes across as really touching. Also, any time where keith or shiro is looking deeply upset about something and you just see the other one really feeling for them in the background like, that Gets me.

Another thing, there are a bunch of parallels between the two in seasons 1 and 2 that no other characters have. like when shiro tells keith patience yields focus in the first episode and then, at the start of season 2, keith repeats it back to him. When shiro crashes back to earth you get “Good to have you back” “Good to be back”—we get that same exact exchange in reverse when keith and allura come back in The Arc of Taujeer. If you factor in visuals then there’s even more—the way shiro carries keith with his arm over his shoulder in BOM bears a striking resemblance to how keith rescued him in the first episode. They both have that same style change in animation when they first activate their bayards.

Their interactions are mirrored a lot, and there’s also a bunch of symbolism around them. Shiro loses his right arm and it’s replaced by a galra prosthetic; it’s portrayed as both a point of strength and weakness for him. Keith, the right arm of voltron, is also galra. He’s also something shiro temporarily lost during his year of capture, and is both an anchor and weak spot for him. Not to mention this thematic thing where they keep getting torn apart and crashing back together again, like theyre just meant to keep finding each other.

In a recent podcast, Bex mentions a scene in the last episode where voltron gets blasted and everyone blacks out. She notes that everyone is shown to be by themselves with an exception—in the shot where shiro is down, you can see the red lion in the background. And in the shot of keith, black lion is also visible. Even on the verge of death, they’re still together. Lauren Montgomery confirms she storyboarded this, so it was intentional. And honestly, i feel like the basis of the ship is a lot of little things like these, a lot of subtleties that show how each is a constant for the other. When shiro hugs keith they don’t say anything, but they don’t have to. They’re close in this way that’s just quietly intimate.

And any time shiro is in trouble keith is always right there; whether he’s snapping shiro out of a flashback or charging in to defend him, you know keith really cares. And of course shiro is invested as well, is clearly touched when he realizes keith took his advice to heart—“That really stayed with you, didn’t it?” He also has this immense respect for keith and his abilities, treats him as a leader in his own right. A lot of people will say that shiro looks at keith as being just a cadet or younger brother he needs to look after, but i don’t think thats true at all.

How he trusts keith with risky missions like chasing down rolo because he’s the most capable pilot, how he trains keith to be his successor—these are all signs that shiro admires keith just as much as keith does him. Not to mention the way Shiro quickly gets over the shock of everything going on in BOM and runs to keith’s aid, immediately ready to fight off everyone at the base to protect him instead of insisting he give up the knife—he didnt have to back his decision to keep the blade, but he did, because he knows it’s important to him. Shiro values keith’s wants and needs. He cares about him.

He also trusts keith’s instincts, let’s him grow into his own person and doesn’t try to control him. When keith decides to go shut down zarkon’s base on his own, there’s this moment when shiro hesitates. Like Kollivan pointed out, it could very well be a suicide mission. Shiro says keith’s name, then stops. There’s this pained look as he closes his eyes, takes a moment to compose himself before he goes Alright, ill cover you. It’s such a small thing, but you can really see how much keith means to him. How he wants keith not to go but, like keith said himself, there’s just no commanding him. So he does the next best thing. He puts his faith in keith and says he’ll cover him. There’s this implicit trust between the two that just speaks volumes.

And, the part about keith freindzoning shiro. the thing is, shiro is the one who mentions family first. he tells keith “we’re your family” and we get the brother line in response to it. But, shiro said “we.” as in, all the paladins. and we know keith thinks of them all as a family, know that he said “we’re all related” at the end of the olkari episode. (hunk also says all the paladins are brothers, and later allura mentions them all being a family. team voltron is pretty Big on family.) So he could have definitely said, yeah, we’re all a family. But no, he puts all the focus on shiro, and goes “ you‘re like a brother to me.” That one exchange shows keith thinks of his relationship with shiro as being on a whole other level from the rest of team voltron—all of whom he’s already expressed a platonic, familial kind of love for.

Yes, he’s known shiro much longer, but i also think whatever happened back at the garrison, he managed to really click with shiro in a way that’s never quite happened before. Without their backstory, it’s kind of hard to tell. But shiro must have made one hell of an impression on keith if he ended up being the only one this poor guy opened up to prekerberos. I mean, kollivan tells shiro that keith is desperate to have him at his side. I don’t typically see This Person “desperately wants to see you” used to describe siblings, that definitely has more of an unrequited love vibe to me. If it was strictly familial, i feel like they would have used a term that implies a More Mutual, healthy relationship rather than having this connotation of the person being in agony over their desire.

Also I realize this is by no means rock solid evidence but, you know how the voltron site has that little quiz for which lion you would pilot, and all the answers correspond to different paladins? For “worst fear” this is the answer we get for keith. Again, not exactly hard evidence, but its something we still see pointed too and implied a lot in cannon, being that keith is definitely someone who feels this need to surpress his feelings:

Again, a lot of cannon is indicative of this. From his willingness to always sacrifice for the mission (like suggesting they leave allura even though he really doesn’t want to) to the way he guards his own emotions (denying that something is wrong time and again when shiro pressures him during his galra phase) keith is someone very reserved, and keeps a lot of his feelings bottled up. That being said, in blade of marmora he thinks the person he’s talking to actually is shiro. And even if he did feel something other than just familial, i don’t think he’s quite ready to tell him that. tbh, whether the person is shiro or lance or anyone else, i don’t think keith is in a place rn where he’d be comfortable admitting he loved somebody.

In the case of shiro this gets even more messy, because keith is galra and the galra have already tortured and tormented shiro so much. Not to mention that shiro has been his one and only support for years, and he probably doesn’t want to jepordize that by bringing up any complicated feelings that could scare shiro off and ruin his one significant long term relationship. Then there are other factors—right before they get to the base, shiro tries to talk to him about how obviously anxious he is. Again, keith closes up. And shiro tells him that, whatever’s going on, he needs to stay focused. He has to keep his shit together--for the team, for the universe.

He doesnt have the luxury of freaking out over being galra, and any other volatile feelings he has he basically reacts to the same. Now isn’t the time for him to be breaking down over his personal feelings for somebody, particularly when keith of all people knows how dangerous it can be to value personal loyalties over the mission. But he does. At the end of season 1, lance tries to tell keith not to split from the group, because it puts the whole rescue and everyone else at risk—which is a pretty good point. But he does. Even though he just said fighting zarkon at his own base is the stupidest thing possible like ten minutes ago, he goes one on one with zarkon because he saw shiro was in trouble and shiro’s lion needed protection. when lance asks what he’s going to do (because he’s right, keith doesn’t have a plan) keith just goes “whatever i can.”

So we know keith is willing to pull risky stunts for shiro’s sake, know that he probably prioritizes shiro more than he should, and that in itself is a risk. Again, we see him choosing shiro above all else in BOM. He tries to let go of shiro, tries to reach for something else—but all shiro has to say is “then you’ve chosen to be alone” and he comes running right back, practically begs him not to go. He’s even able to turn his back on his own father (for the greater good) but ends up chasing after shiro. So i think keith has plenty of reasons to keep any possible feelings secret. It’s Not the time for that and, understandably, someone who’s had as much difficulty forming relationships as keith doesn’t want to be hurt by the possibility of anything romantic.

And, as a bi boy myself, i will say that the whole bringing up “yeah, you’re like a brother/sister to me” can totally be something you latch onto as an out if you’re only just realizing you may have feelings for people of the same gender and you’re worried you’ll freak the other person out, particularly when theyre a close friend. Also, we’re only 22 episodes in and they already made a 78 episode commitment. Any major ship that goes cannon isn’t about to happen within the next episode or two, so i think theres plenty of time to build more on shiro and keith’s relationship to the point where it could be more overtly romantic, but i think the ship already has a pretty solid foundation to grow off of.

Also, side note, but it doesn’t make sense from a writing standpoint to me for keith and shiro to ultimately end on a brotherly kind of relationship. Because i feel like by now there should have been more parallels drawn between keith and pidge—someone who did lose their brother at kerberos—and hey, both shiro and matt are missing now, so maybe we will get that kind of parallel. But i also don’t really see why they’d work the missing brother angle with keith when that’s already pidge’s thing you know? It’s a nitpick, but it’s just something that always kinda seemed weird to me.

Anyway, i am S O SORRY this got so sUPER LONG ; ; but i hope this kind of answers your question?? I understand why a lot of people see sheith as strictly platonic, and right now everything is really up for interpretation. But for me personally, i always felt like their bond was given more time and attention than anyone else’s, and like there was something Really There.

#sheith #shiro #keith #voltron #meta #this wasnt meant to be a sheith blog but #h e r e w e a r e

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