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chid-sen-gan-blog · 5 years

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My Reaction to GoT 8.03 (”The Long Night”)

Hello! I’m back for another recap/review!

I’m so sorry this took so long, but I was a bit… uninspired. But it’s here now, and I hope you enjoy!

Once again, featuring running commentary from my Dad and Brother because I love them and their witty remarks. (all thoughts and quotes are from our first time viewing it, per usual)

WARNING: Spoilers for anyone who hasn’t seen the episode yet, though this warning might be irrelevant at this point.

WARNING 2: My family and I (namely me) weren’t really fans of this episode, so things get… pretty snarky at some points. Also, there’s a lot of shade - no pun intended - thrown at the lighting throughout. A lot. All these are just the opinions of three people, however, and not meant to offend anyone. If you enjoyed the episode, then lucky you more power to you - you do you! :)

And last, but certainly not least, a huge thank you to everyone who supported the first two installments! Now, time for part three!

So… the new opening credits still haven’t grown on me. But the inclusion of the crypt for this episode is a nice touch

(I have a sinking feeling that taking refuge in the crypts is going to backfire for those hiding there and really hope I’m wrong)

Yay! Sam! Please don’t die on me. Please…

Pre-battle preparation montages always puts me on edge. Now is no exception

Another Alys Karstark shot and I’m still not sure why the crew keeps including them…

“So, the showrunners keep giving us glimpses of Alys Karstark, but do they actually plan on doing anything with her, or…?” - My Wonderful Brother; so I guess I’m not the only one curious

“With D&D at the reigns, she could be there for anything from the kidnap theory to a faceless man revival.” - My Wonderful Dad

“True. Let’s hope they get their story right right tonight, though.” - My Wonderful Brother

“I don’t see how they couldn’t. They already have all the pieces in place. All they need to do is not try anything random.” - My Wonderful Dad

Awwww. My children! D&D, don’t you dare kill off Jaime, Brienne, or Pod. I will find you if you do!!! And no CGI dragons will be able to save you!

(I’m super worried about Pod. He’s right up there at the top of my list with Theon and Grey Worm. And possibly Jorah, but I’m 50/50 with him)

(Maybe 60/40; if Dark!Dany’s a possibility, she needs to suffer a huge loss in this battle. And considering Jorah’s her morality pet/conscience, he would fit the bill)

(basically if Jorah dies this episode, then my confidence in the show going the Dark!Dany route rises)

Tormund! I’m guessing you’ll live. The writers need some fan favorite B characters to make it through the night…

Ooh, Beric. Yeah… you’re probably not one of them…

And the Hound will be needed for Cleganebowl, so he’s safe. No way they’re writing off the guy with all the hype surrounding him and his bro’s one-on-one

Actually, he’s one of the few people I’m absolutely sure will live past this episode

Gendry… 50/50 on you, too, sadly. I hope you make it, though

Darn it, knowing I’m never going to see some of these characters again is making me emotional. And it’s not even ten minutes into the episode!!!

Awwww. Poor Edd. You’re definitely a goner, since you essentially doomed yourself last week

Aaaaaaaand now I”m tearing up. Darn it!!! It’s too early to cry!

My new mantra: Please let Sam live

Wow, that shot is… dark. I wouldn’t have known those were horses if not for the whinnying

GHOST!!! Are we going to see him fight this episode? Because Im so here for it!

My wonderful Dad and Brother are just as pumped to see him as I am. Bless them

“But, seriously, why is Ghost with Jorah and the Dothraki and not with the Northerners in the crypts? Wouldn’t that be more practical” - My Wonderful Brother; taking time from his celebration to ask the tough questions

And here’s Dany to ruin my mood. Absolutely spectacular

“So, do you think she’ll abandon Jon and co during the battle?” - My Wonderful Dad

“Nope, she still wants the North to see her as their hero. It’s more likely she’ll rush in at some point and ruin the plan.” - My Wonderful Brother

Sansa!!! Arya!!!

Hey, remember when Dany stans said that Sansa’s S8 hairstyle was based on their kween’s? Good times, good times

Oooooh. A rider in the night? But who? The gang’s all here, except for Cersei and Euron

Is it Bronn? Kind of bad timing if it is…

No, wait, Carice von Houten was in the credits. It’s Melisandre, isn’t it?

They’re zooming in on Davos, it must be…

Yep.

“So, let’s none of us question why she’s here or how she got around the undead army marching on the North. Deal?” - My Wonderful Dad

“Deal.” - My Wonderful Brother and Less Wonderful I

And, once again, everything’s super dark, even for this show. Is it supposed to be intentional, or…?

I love how Jorah’s like: “I don’t know who the heck you are or what you want or why you’re here, but sure I’ll do what you ask, weird pretty red lady”

FINALLY!!! LIGHT!!! Thank you, Melisandre!

I’ll admit, that was a beautiful shot

I have a real affinity for how Liam Cunningham portrays an angry Davos. I’m not really sure why, but I do

Okay, so Melisandre’s going to die before the dawn. Why do I feel somewhat emotional about it?

(I’m still not over Shireen, so I really have no clue)

Ooooh, that look shared between Melisandre or Arya. Is Arya going to kill her? Maybe because of what happened to Gendry?

Ummmmmm…. Dothraki. What are you doing?

Seriously, what are you guys doing?

Don’t tell me these knuckleheads are actually charging at an enemy they can’t even see…

Oh, shoot. That’s exactly what they’re doing.

………… and now were’s firing the catapults. Umm, hello, don’t we kind of need our supplies for later?! What are you dimwits doing?!?!

No, really, this is idiotic. Why are they lighting things up and charging all gleefully like it’s a 4th of July cookout?!?!

“No, Ghost. Turn around. You’re too smart for this.” - My Wonderful Dad

Well lookie there. The Dothraki charged right into the army of the dead. Who could’ve possibly predicted that? *sarcasm, sarcasm*

“And just like that, the Night King’s added tens of thousands more soldiers to his army. Everyone say “thank you, Dany” for bringing your men who apparently have zero impulse control.” - My Wonderful Brother

“So this is why God didn’t give cavemen fire.” - My Wonderful Dad

You just know that Jaime’s watching this display thinking “why did my men have such a hard time fighting those guys again?”

Aaaaaand the screen’s nearly pitch black again. Dandy

Oh, look, slow-mo Jorah. At least I think it is. It’s kind of hard to tell…

Ugh. Dany. I’m not in the mood for you

Wow, astounding. She’s not going to stick to the plan. I’m sure this will work out just fine

“Told ya’.” - My Wonderful Brother

Nothing screams true love quite like yanking your arm out of your boyfriend’s grasp and snapping at him.

(Anyone else ever get CerseixJaime vibes from these two? And I’m not just talking about the incest…)

Grey Worm putting on his helmet is somehow one of the best parts in this episode so far. And I don’t think that’s a good thing

But still, it’s too early to judge, so I’ll shut up

Why hello, Army of the Dead. How was that 4th of July cookout the Dothraki ran into?

And now it’s time for my favorite game - count the fallen red shirts! Let’s see… 1, 2, oh, there’s a third…

And there’s one red shirt who just realized his name’s never been said on the show and booked. I respect his genre-savyness

Meanwhile, back with the important characters…

No!!! Brienne!!! No!!!

Jaime’s “wench sense” prevails again. That’s my boy

Dany’s “ruin-my-mood sense” is also as strong as ever, apparently

Well, at least the dragonfire shone some light on things

Sansa looking awed at Jon on a dragon is so far one of the best shots in the episode

I will forever hate Jonerys, but Ramin Djawadi always knocks it out of the park with his score - even with their theme.

I wonder if he’ll have anything new to present for this episode…

Jon’s gotten a lot better at riding Rhaegal. That could be very useful in upcoming conflicts… *grins wickedly*

Lovely, now Jon’s stuck in a snowstorm. *sighs* Really, I give him one compliment…

“I just hope that Dany remembers she has to light the trench and doesn’t follow him in.” - My Wonderful Dad

“You’re asking for way too much, Daddy.” - My Wonderful Brother

Aw, Sansa. I’m so proud of you. And this is why I love the Starks - no matter the dangers they face, they’re loyal to their people first and foremost

… Arya, no offense, but your sister’s not much of a fighter. Don’t you think you should give her more than just one tiny dragonglass blade?

Ah, callbacks. But, seriously, give Sansa another weapon

Seeing Jaime, Brienne, and Pod together in any capacity gives me all the feels. All of them. Even when they’re fighting literal zombies

And now Dany’s also lost in the snowstorm. Well, on the bright side, at least she didn’t fly directly into it

Theon!……… yeah, you’re a dead man. I’ll sincerely miss you

And we’re back to the battle. That was… interesting editing

16 red shirts… 17 red shirts… 18 red shirts…

So it’s twenty minutes in and no named characters have died yet. I’m surprised…

And there goes Edd. *cries* Why did I think I was safe?!?! Why?!?!?!?!?!

So that’s one death I guessed. I wonder who else…

Okay, is it even possible for Sophie Turner to look anything but beautiful? I mean, even with this episode’s lighting…

I forgot Tyrion was alive Oops

Still have a sinking suspicion the crypts are going to be overrun with wights…

I honestly admire how calm Tyrion is. If my brother was out fighting an army of undead popsicles, you could bet I would be anything but

Jon and Dany bumping into eachother on dragonback is really making me smile. Even though I know it wasn’t intentional this time

If Jorah doesn’t die, Lyanna Mormont will. I’m calling it now

Grey Worm is so far the MVP of this battle. Now I’m really worried about his survival odds…

Soooooooo… are the dragons just going to be lost in this snowstorm the entire episodes? I mean, they have to play a bigger part than that, right?

(if they don’t then Jon really went through some serious guff for nothing)

Jon calling Dany by her nickname again despite knowing she doesn’t like it gives me life. So what if I’m petty?

And back with Theon and Bran after… nothing really happened

“Is it just me, or does the editing this episode feel a little… off?” - My Wonderful Brother

“Not just you. It has been so far. Strange, considering that’s usually one of D&D’s strong points.” - My Wonderful Dad

Aaaaaaand back to the battle after nothing really happened

“….. really?” - My Wonderful Brother

Brienne checking on Pod is what I live for. Honestly, I’m so far more interested in my J-B-P Family Trio than the actual battle

(Though I don’t think I’m supposed to be)

And the lighting is pitch black again. Huzzah

Unsullied don’t feel fear, huh? Welp, Grey Worm’s quickly realizing that most Unsullied don’t usually fight dead men

Really, though, this scene is on-point. Kudos to everyone involved

And now Dany can’t see the signal to light the trench. Yippee…

“YOU HAD ONE JOB, DAENERYS!!! ONE!!!” - My Wonderful Dad

On another note, I think I finally figured out why Melisandre conveniently strolled back into the picture when she did

And there we go

You know, everything has played out so predictably thus far that I feel like D&D are going to pull a huge, random move at some point

One that likely won’t make any sense, knowing them

Oh, I hope that’s not the case

Alright, that shot when Melisandre finally light up the trench is beautiful. I must admit

…………………………………………………………………………. wait, so Jon was just chilling right next to the trench when he could’ve lit it up this whole time?!?!?!?!

Ugh. So far he’s been utterly useless this battle. I mean, I love the guy, but really?

Please tell me they’re just saving his potential for when he fights the Night King. Or, even better, fights him so Bran can take him down

(D&D wouldn’t honestly butcher my boy like this without a reason, right?)

Oh, great. I forgot the Hound has PTSD when it comes to fire. This should be interesting. With any luck, he’ll overcome his fear this episode

Back in the crypts which are still somehow safe

And it’s times like these, when Tyrion touts his own greatness, that I remember he’s much more like Tywin than I’d care to acknowledge

Yes, Tyrion. You would make all the difference out there in the battle. When not even your swordsman brother should, logically-speaking, be near it, given his one hand situation. But, sure. You keep on thinking that.

Sansa laying some truth down. I stan

I really do enjoy her and Tyrion’s chemistry. And it’s actually nice to take a bit of a break from the battle

Oh, look at that. Sansa and Dany aren’t besties after their talk last episode after all. Odd, I could’ve sworn some stans said they were

One of which was, apparently, Missandei

Gee, I love you, Missandei, but that comment was totally uncalled for. They weren’t even talking to you

“And maybe if it weren’t for the dragon queen, the wall would still be standing and the dead wouldn’t even be here.” - My Wonderful Brother

“The girl didn’t even light the trench. Which was, again, her one job!” - My Wonderful Dad

*sighs* I really hate brainwashed Missandei. But I’m sure Dany’s stans will find a woman of color being blindly devoted to a white woman totally empowering

(And, before anyone bashes me, I’m speaking as someone who’s got the blood of all walks of minorities in my veins)

Ad back to Theon and Bran. Are they actually going to do something this time?

Oh, they are!

So, Bran’s “home” quote was said to Theon. Odd, and here I thought he was supposed to have said it to Dany… oh, well

Ooooh, warging Bran. With any luck, he’ll warg into a dragon at some point in this episode

I don’t even care anymore, just let the poor guy be useful in this battle somehow

So… when the army of animated corpses have better battle plans than your armies, exactly how screwed are you?

Jorah ushering Sam to the walls is actually really heartwarming

As is surrogate dad Jaime checking on his adopted son Pod en route to their battle stations

…… Jon has been sitting on the walls of Winterfell for who knows how long doing absolutely zilch. Not burning wights, not guarding Bran, not even brooding. And I’m ticked about it

What the heck, D&D? I thought you loved CGI dragon stuff

Well, finally. Yes, go fight the head popsicle, even if you don’t kill him. Go, my boy, and redeem yourself

The J-B-P Family Trio dynamic is my favorite thing in this episode thus far. Fight me

And Sam and Jorah. I want a spin-off named “Mormont and Tarly” with these two just hanging out

So, it’s almost halfway through the episode and only Edd has died out of the named characters. I have a feeling things are about to get bloody

Well, there goes another red shirt. What was I up to? 42?

No no no no no no no no. Bad wights. Not Jaime. Get off my problematic child! Get off him, darn you!!!

Brienne has “Kingslayer sense” confirmed

Who needs plot armor when you have your totally platonic not girlfriend watching your back?

My children fighting together… *tears up* I’m so proud…

And who needs plot armor when you have your totally platonic not boyfriend watching your back?

Jorah saving Sam with Heartsbane is all kinds of right. That is all

And the Hound is not making any sort of progress with his PTSD. I’m rooting for you, Sandor

Aaaaaaaaaaand…. I’m really tired of ninja!Arya already. I’m sorry. Unpopular opinion, I know, but it seems like the show’s going out of their way waaaay too much recently to make her seem all BAMF. I don’t know, call it personal preference, but I like it when there’s some vulnerability to a fighter

And maybe that hit to the head will take her down a peg. Knowing D&D, though… not likely

Oh, boy. The Hound’s really got it bad. I feel for him….

The fact he cares so much about Arya takes me back to S4, and I couldn’t be happier about it. Ah, the great seasons…

My wonderful Dad and Brother have taken to trying to adjust the brightness on our tv…to limited success. And this isn’t even the darkest the episode’s been…

Okay, I got over Lyanna Mormont in S7, but I have to say, she got the coolest death ever in the show by far. And I’m glad

Also, another predicted death. Makes me wonder about Jorah’s fate now…

So… the dragons above the clouds is a pretty shot and all, but are Jon and Dany just playing hide&seek with the Night King at this point, or…?

Oh, there’s the head popsicle!

(oh, if only fire could burn the unburnt…)

(speaking of which, how does Wightserion manage to breathe fire if he’s a wight and fire kind of kills them all over again? I’ve been wondering…)

“And after less than a minute of the dragons looking like they’d actually do something, we’ve now transitioned in to a game of tag, you’re it.” - My Wonderful Brother, getting fully annoyed with this episode

“At this point you could put Little Sam out in the field and he’d do more than the dragons.” - My Wonderful Dad, getting fully annoyed with this episode

And now Arya’s playing hide&seek with the wights. What is this, buy none get three day?

So… this scene is going to contribute something other than more bad lighting, right? Please say it is…

And nothing’s really happening…

And nothing…

Nothing….

Okay, so I have a feeling this is supposed to come off as a horror movie kind of thing, but it reads more like Tom&Jerry, imo

Wights have better hearing than me. I’m a little jealous

*shudders* Alright, the way that wight re-died (coining that term as of now) when Arya stabbed it was really gross. I tip my hat to the special effects and make-up team

Arya’s running like mad. And I’m happy she seems human again

(On another note, all this focus on Arya is really making me wonder what D&D are planning on doing with her. I can guess it’s something important…)

Too dark to see too dark to see too dark to see too dark to see…

I’m still surprised the crypts are safe. Maybe I’m wrong and they won’t be taken over by the dead after all

“This episode needs more Sansa. I said what I said.” - My Wonderful Brother

The Hound and Beric’s buddy cop adventures continue

Sweet move, Beric. We should enter you in javelin-throwing

Arya fighting just fine with a head wound. Even though I’m pretty sure she must have a concussion. Oh, what the heck, it’s a fantasy show

Beric sacrificing himself for Arya and the Hound in an honestly brilliant scene… that I could hardly see… -_-*

Beric dying to protect them also means that I was probably right before when I said Arya’s going to play an important role in this fight. Or the Hound

But my money’s on Arya. They’ll want a girl power shield in case their plans fall through

Really, the lighting on this episode looks like the contrast effect I add to my Sony Vegas-made AMVs before filtering the colors

So… Melisandre’s alone in this room surrounded by a bunch of doubly dead wights. Did she kill them all herself? Did she flambe them? I would really like to know

And blue eyes. Wait… no.

“They’re going to have Arya kill the Night King. That’s their big twist” - My Wonderful Brother

“But that wouldn’t make any sense. I mean, what about Bran? Doesn’t his whole story revolve around taking down the Night King?Didn’t Uncle Benjen say in no uncertain terms that without Bran they lose everything?” - Me

“Yep. But it’s still going to be Arya.” - My Wonderful Brother

“But what about Jon?! Doesn’t 90% of his arc center around facing this guy, too?! What about their stare down in “Hardhome”?” - Me

“Maybe Jon gets a crack at him, but it’s going to be Arya who finishes him off.” - My Wonderful Brother

“They wouldn’t!” - Me

“Remember Joffrey’s funeral scene in “Breaker of Chains” and how they changed it?” - My Wonderful Dad

“……… oh, no. They would.” -Me

And now I’m worried

I mean, I love Arya, I really do. And I love girls being great. But something like that would just feel so… out-of-the-blue

Please don’t let that be the case

(But then again, my wonderful Brother’s always right)

Theon and the red shirts going to war and I can’t even try to appreciate it

Oh, well, I couldn’t see much of it anyway

And there goes Rhaegal and Wightserion fighting in the sky. And I can’t even see what’s happening. Wondrous

*squinting*

No! Not the cloak Sansa made for Jon! Bad dragon, bad!

*more squinting*

… did Drogon just bite Rhaegal? It looks like it. But I won’t jump to any conclusions just yet because I CAN’T FRICKING SEE!!!

Jon has to be hurt after that fall. There’s no way he only got a few scrapes

Then again, the damage to his body is probably far less than the damage my eyes have taken straining to see the screen

And back to the battle. Time to see if anyone I love is still alive…

*even more squinting*

Ya’ know what, I can’t tell

Oh, great. Dany and the Night King. Well, let’s see if she’s going to kill him and become the heiress of a million more prophecies

Bet you ten bucks she’s going to smile when she burns him

And knock knock I’m here to collect my money

Well, Jon’s staggering around like he’s hurt, at least. That’s good enough for me (at least someone seems to be affected by bodily wear-and-tear)

And the Night King’s not burnt. Oh, this is great!!!

AND THAT SMIRK!!! I CAN’T!!! *falls off chair laughing*

“Can we stan the Starks and the Night King at the same time? Is that even possible?” - My Wonderful Dad

“Well, Dany, your purpose here is done. Time to go back to Meereen.” - My Wonderful Brother

“Excuse me, but what did the people of Meereen ever do to you to have you wish such a thing on them?” - My Wonderful Dad

“Nothing. I just really want Demanding Tourist out of Westeros already.” - My Wonderful Brother

Yes, head popsicle. Get the dragon brat!!! Yeeeeeeeees!!!!!!

Aw, darn it. He missed

Oooh, Jon running at the Night King. Here we go! One-on-one!!!

Oh, shoot. He’s running towards him as the guy’s reanimating the corpses?! Is he really planning on sacrificing himself?!??!

(you know what, never mind. It’s Jon - we already know the answer is yes)

Okay, sweetie, all you need is a few good jabs and I’ll be happy. Just get a couple hits on this guy and I’ll be satisfied

Immediately has “Satisfied” from Hamilton play in my head and chooses to ignore it

Ummm… Jon. Why are you stopping? The path is still clear? Just run through!

Oh, shoot, everyone that was killed is coming back

Oh, hey, look, Jaime and Brienne are still alive… and they’re probably not going to be in two more minutes so I better enjoy it. Good thing I have both Wench and Kingslayer sense, or I might not have been able to tell it was them in the dark

Now where’s Pod? *activates Squire sense”*

And there’s the crypts not staying safe. I fricking called it and I wish I hadn’t

Don’t you dare touch Gilly or Little Sam or Sansa, wights!!!

On another note… how did the wights manage to punch through solid stone with their skeletal hands?

My boy Theon still stepping up. *sighs* I’m really going to miss him… and back from a quick cut, Jon squinting at that dragonfire is me right now, after nearly a whole hour of watching an almost fully-black screen

Giving credit where credit is due, Dany just saved my fav. Thanks for that, but don’t get used to it

Ooooooooh Dany stuck in the middle of nowhere without her dragons surrounded by wights… *pulls out White Walker paraphernalia and foam finger* Team Wights forever!

(What? I did say don’t get used to it)

No Jorah! Nooooooo! Why?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

“WE COULD’VE HAD IT ALLLL!!!!” - My Wonderful Brother

Also, kind of hate how the sword belonging to the family Dany burnt alive is now being used to defend her, but who cares what I think, right?

Jon running past Sam is so wrong on so many levels

On another, however, it shows that he prioritizes Bran - his family - above all else. So, maybe I’m giving D&D too much credit here, but if that’s what they were trying to convey, I can see where they’re coming from

This tunnel run is the most fighting Jon’s actually gotten to do in the episode thus far, which is actually pretty dissapointing

Y’know, considering he was all gung-ho about fighting the Army of the Dead and all

Theon , my boy, you make me proud

Also, what is Bran actually doing? Something important, I hope…

Wow. Dany can magically wield a sword. Where did this sudden skill come from, I wonder…

Are Sansa and Tyrion taking refuge behind Ned’s tomb? *heart breaks into a million pieces*

“YES! WE’RE FINALLY GOING TO SEE SANSA IN ACTION!!!” - My Wonderful Dad

*scene cuts away*

“Hey, I said in action, not inactive! I want to see my girl kill some wights!” - My Wonderful Dad

He’s been a full Sansa stan for only a week yet he gets how awesome she is. I’m so proud of him

Oh, great, Wightserion almost killing Jon

Oh, great, wights almost killing my J-B-P Family Trio

WHY DO PIANO SCORES NEVER MEAN ANYTHING GOOD IN THIS SHOW?!?!?!?!

Yet I’m already loving this score. Let’s see just how much of a next level Ramin Djawadi takes it to

No, bad wights! Don’t kill my children!

No! Don’t make Sam cry!

Noooooooooooo! Don’t say thank you, Bran! Now he’s really going to die!

NOOOOOOO! THEON!!!!!!! *cries hysterically*

Jon… just can’t catch an awesome break this episode, can he? Now he’s got to deal with the dragon he already faced again… *sighs*

And yep. Ramin Djawadi outdid himself with this score. And that’s the hill I die on

Jon, sweetie… why are you randomly screaming at a dragon? Did you hit your head when you fell off Rhaegal? Has the stress of obsessing over the undead finally caught up to you? Did Dany finally break you?

Okay, a white walker’s hair has suddenly turned into a Maybelline commercial

And it’s…

Arya. Oh, boy. Here we go…

Aaaaaaaaand… it’s over. Just. Like. That.

We never even got to know anything about him and that’s it

They Snoke’d him

And Bran was utterly useless, to boot

*left eyes strained from too much squinting twitches*

“They really did it…” - mMe

“Called it.” - My Wonderful Brother

“Well… I guess good for Arya. Right?” - My Wonderful Dad

“No. Not good. Not good. I’m glad she got a chance to shine and I don’t even care about her hitting the final blow. I don’t care who hi it, honestly!!! But Jon and Bran were both completely useless?! EVEN BRAN?! ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!?!?!?! BRAN’S ENTIRE STORYLINE WAS THE NIGHT KING!!! NOW WHAT’S HE ANY GOOD FOR?! TELLING HIS FAMILY THAT JAIME PUSHED HIM OUT A WINDOW?!?! DON’T GIVE ME THAT! I DID NOT SIT THROUGH SEVEN ENTIRE SEASONS OF GAME OF THRONES AND PUT UP WITH SIX OF THEM WATCHING BRAN’S BORING-AS-ALL-HECK VISIONS JUST FOR HIM TO BE PLAYING WARG THE RAVENS THROUGHOUT THIS ENTIRE EPISODE AND HAVE NO SAY IN TAKING DOWN THE POPSICLE!!!” - Me, with an unpopular opinion that will get me in so much trouble later

“True. His lack of involvement was… dissapointing.” - My Wonderful Dad

“You know, there’s a way it all could’ve worked. All they had to do was have Bran warg into the Night King to try and keep him at bay to give Arya the chance to finish him off. Show a bit of struggle between all three of them and ultimately have Bran be the deciding factor. Maybe throw in a bit of flashbacks to the guy’s past, while they were at it” - My Wonderful Brother

“Yeah, but that would require making the guy look like a legitimate threat in terms of fighting.” - Me

“Oh, that’s an easy fix. They should’ve let Jon fight the Night King before and get royally owned. That would’ve established him.” - My Wonderful Brother

“Not only that, but it would also heighten the expectation that Jon would make a huge comeback, which would really throw the viewers for a loop when Arya comes to save Bran instead.” - My Wonderful Dad

My family, everyone. Also known as my bright spots in the abysmal world

To be fair, the one thing I like about this is that the knife originally intended to kill Bran eventually saved him. Bravo

Welp, there goes Jorah. My heart is already in pieces, so a few more breaks won’t do anything

*cries anyway*

Guess Dark!Dany is probably coming. At least I hope so. And then we’ll have Bronn fight her or some other nonsensical decision. Who cares anymore?

I can’t bring myself to feel a shred of pity for Dany or an ounce of compassion. Yet even I know Emilia Clarke’s acting in this scene is fantastic

And now at the end of the episode we finally have light. And my eyes actually are having a hard time adjusting to it

So long, Melisandre. I’m surprisingly emotional about this but maybe that’s just because I’m still crying from Jorah

That’s it? Huh. That’s it. Who lived? Who died? Don’t ask me.

I’m going to go work on my AU now. It may suck, but at least I put real effort into it. Maybe I’ll be a screenwriter. It seems to require very little

I’m bitter and ready to be unfollowed

Sorry

#gots8e3spoilers...#anti daenerys #anti jonerys #dark!dany #anti targ restoration #anti targaryen #anti d&d...#anti arya to a extent but not really #just in case i don't want to offend anyone #political!jon musings #unpopular opinions...#anti episode lighting #sorry about the potential typos and incoherencies #i was ticked really ticked #please don't @ me i don't want to start trouble #just getting this all off my chest

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hylialeia · 2 years

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sorry but do you really think sansa and viserys are parallels from that post about jon and deanerys? it feels very anti-sansa to pit them together and i didn't think you'd go for that.

Anon's referring to this post for anyone wondering. To be honest, I'm a little :/ when people send me questions about posts I'm not even the OP of and ask for clarification, but I guess this is specific enough to me (do I think these characters are parallels?) that I'll go ahead and answer it for myself.

First, that post is focusing on a similarity between Jon and Daenerys, two heavily-paralleled characters whose respective arcs intentionally mirror one another's in many ways. Sansa and Viserys happen to play similar roles in this specific situation as a sibling that is caught up in their own romanticized perception, and therefore who does not notice what Jon and Daenerys do, respectively (i.e., that Joffrey's pompous and that Illyrio is mocking).

Now, do I think Sansa and Viserys are parallels based off that? No; I think they have a single parallel, and that single parallel is the romanticizing nature of their characters. I don't think they mirror each other to the extent that Jon and Daenerys do, for reasons that should be obvious (age, characterization, story arcs, general context, etc).

Second, I feel the need to discuss this sort of defensive, bad-faith reading of things that assumes discourse-related motives from everyone involved, which is the vibe I'm getting from this ask.

I think it's fair to say this was a short, concise post. Could we dive further into the parallel and pick it apart, go through every difference and similarity with a fine-tooth comb? Sure, but the post didn't need to; not everything needs to be a thesis length analysis, and certainly not one that has disclaimers that it's not trying to secretly insult another character. Sometimes people can just see a parallel, point out why it works, and go "isn't that cool?"

Also, look at my other ASOIAF posts. If my blog gives off the vibe of not being anti-Sansa (or anti-Arya or anti-Dany or what-have-you) that's probably because I'm not. If I reblog a post about Dany (and Jon) that really says nothing about AGOT Sansa except that she--an eleven-year-old girl who's been sheltered her whole life--was not yet as observant as her older half-brother, I think you can continue to safely assume that I like Sansa just fine, and furthermore that I meant nothing bad about Sansa in reblogging a post someone else made about a different character.

I think we need to put away the strategy of assuming everything we read is a super-secret-subtle piece of pro/anti [insert character here] propaganda and maybe just go back to typing posts and enjoying a well-written series with a lot of nuance and complexity.

#asoiaf #asoiaf meta #ask #anonymous #sansa stark #viserys targaryen #valyrianscrools #daenerys targaryen #jon snow #I'm tired I'm tired I'm SO fucking tired

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nineteensixtieschikadee · 3 years

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Arya Stark & Femininity

This might turn into a mini rant, so bear with me here. A lot of times whenever I watch old GOT clips, (bc I hate myself) and read stuff about Arya on fansites, I realize that there’s been a lot of misconception about her and her character. Particularly about her being a woman. And a lot of times i see this sort of “justification” from her fans that the reason why she’s such a fan-favorite character in the show (and to some extent, the books?) is because Arya is esentially this “bad-ass ninja asassin tomboy who’s out for revenge against those who’ve killed her family.” And some of her fans and especially her anti’s will call her out expressing that “Arya’s only a child who doesn’t like girly things like dresses and boys and doing her hair. She “identifies” herself as a tomboy because she likes “boyish things” like sword play, and playing in the mud, and gore, wrestling, etc. I was scrolling through the Jonrya tag here on Tumblr, this is a comment I found regarding Arya:

The moment I read that I straight up just wanted to rant! Lol! Also, I’m sorry for the formatting, I’m writing this on mobile. :( Anyways, these people who make those claims about Arya, esentially only see her as this small girl who likes fighting and getting dirty. They completely disregard everything else that makes Arya, Arya. Pretty much just limiting her to her sex, understanding that because Arya likes boyish things, she’s NOT ALLOWED to inherit things, like the North, fall in love and get married, have a high position in the hierarchy and in politics. It’s because that these people see her as someone who hates needlework or everything that isn’t Sansa, everyone believes that she hates everything that makes her FEMALE. Everybody here knows that Arya’s my favorite female character in the books, so I just wanna talk about how the general public views her, and how their views tend to go against Arya’s entire character.

People have this view that she is the “exact opposite” of Sansa. And while that’s true in terms of their different characteristics, it doesn’t mean that Arya is against everything that makes Sansa, feminine. Now lemme elaborate here. Sansa is everything that represents “femininity.” Especially in terms of the inspired time period that ASOIAF takes place in. She’s very girly & lady-like, is mannerful, “soft-spoken.” She daydreams about boys and being a princess. She’s graceful and elegant. She knows her place in terms of society, and as a woman. AND YEAH, Arya is the exact opposite of that. Yes, she has this boyish nature. She’s wild and free spirited. Loud also adventerous. But that’s the thing: Arya has a lot of femininity in her. It’s just not the femininity that we’re used to. What society percieves as “normally feminine.”

Arya is not Sansa. And it’s because she doesn’t act like a “lady” that the audience sees her as this girl who “doesn’t want” or most importantly, should not want/get the same treatment as the typical noblewoman in Westeros should recieve. This idea was engraved into people’s heads because of the show, and that’s how we’re supposed to see her. As this cold hearted ninja assasin warrior who happens to be a girl, but doesn’t act like a typical girl. The audience pretty much places her in the “I’m not like other girls” trope. Which is honestly, so wrong to me. Because yeah okay, Arya isn’t like the typical lady. But god, she is far deeper than that, and is a much more complex character.

Here’s the thing, Arya does not reject being a female, and most importantly, she does not reject the typical ideals of what makes a lady feminine. Of course not. In fact, she actively encourages that women be included in all things, especially in things only made for men. She believes that women should not be held back or ignored because of their sex and femininity.

“The Lannister’s are proud,” Jon observed. “You’d think the royal sigil would be sufficient, but no. He makes his mother’s House equal in honor to the king’s.”

“The woman is important too!” Arya protested.

This excerpt is from Arya’s very first chapter in AGOT. It is also my favorite Jonrya moment, lol. And asides from the scene foreshadowing potential plot points for not only Jon & Arya, the scene introduces to us and examines Arya’s perception of society and more specifically, the women in society. In this scene Arya joins Jon in observing Prince Joffrey, talking about the Lannister/Baratheon coat of arms. Jon makes a point that while the Baratheon sigil should be enough to prove that Joffrey is of royalty, the Lannisters (Cersei) are a proud house, married into the royal family. So therefore Joffrey is of house Baratheon AND Lannister. That is why the Lannister sigil stands besides the Baratheons. Because they, specifically Cersei, should be seen as equal to the king.

And while Jon makes this seem like it’s wrong or not needed, Arya disagrees with him. She tells him that the women should not be forgotten, as they should be seen as equal to the men. That the women are just as important as the men, and that it would be of good conduct to not forget that. And with that being said, she never acknowledges that Joffrey’s mother is too lady-like or too feminine to be seen as an equal to the king. Nope. Although she does question later as to why if women cannot fight, why should they have a coat of arms. Though that is hardly the point of her argument.

Another point that makes people believe that Arya is not feminine or does not support femininity, is when she flat out says to Ned that she hates the idea of being a lady.

“Your mother and I have charged her with the impossible task of making you a lady.”

“I don’t want to be a lady,” Arya flared.

Alot of people misinterpret this as Arya not wanting to be a noblewoman, because she only likes to play with swords, and get dirty. Because acting like a lady is stupid and not her. This is simply not true. Arya has no problem with women, or being a lady. She is a lady. A highborn one. What she does have a problem with is that being a lady often means being trapped in the conformities of what society percieves to be the acceptable standard for women in this time period.

All of the acceptable standards is what Sansa is. And she is not like Sansa. She does not believe herself to be a lady like her sister or her mother. When she first reveals her true identity to Gendry in ACOK, he immediately apologizes to her for his behavior and calls her m’lady. :3 Arya unfortunately sees this as a form of mockery and an attack because while Gendry acknowledges that she is a lady, Arya doesn’t act like a typical lady or even look like one. That insecurity of not being a lady like her mother and sister makes her believe that Gendry is using her sex against her. Like a form of irony. But I mean, we all know that’s far from the truth, lol!

And Jon recognizes this too! It’s the reason why they are so close and tightly knit together. Because Jon understands Arya, and sees her insecurity like how she sees his. They are one and the same. Jon sees and understands Arya’s frustrations of sexism viewed in Westeros. He acknowledges that Arya is to become a lady. But he also sees that Arya is not the conventional type of lady wanting to stick to the norms. She is a different type of lady, and to him, that is okay. He may tease her for it once in a while, pointing out all the unfair limitations that women have to go through. But he accepts her for being this unconventional noblewoman, and often encourages her to pursue being different.

“Girls get the arms but not the swords. Bastards get the swords but not the arms. I did not make the rules, little sister.”

Later when Jon and Arya say their goodbyes, Jon gifts Arya with the swords. Needle. This is his way of saying, fuck all them haters, be who you wanna be. Solidifying the idea that he supports her and accepts her for who she is. Kinda like how Tyrion told him to use his identity as armour, Arya should do the same to herself. It’s okay to be different than the rest. Fuck the rules.

It’s not that Arya hates the idea of being a lady. It’s a far cry from that. It’s the sexism that goes along with being the typical lady that infruiates her. Arya loves running around, riding horses, playing with swords, being loud and adventurous. She has a firery temper to her. And just because she likes doing all of that, and is all of that, it doesn’t mean, shouldn’t mean that she isn’t a lady. That she can’t be a lady. All of those things shouldn’t limit her to being viewed as a girl, a highborn lady. She is a woman, and she identifies as one.

“Listen to him, boy.”

“It was the third time he had called her “boy.” “I’m a girl,” Arya objected.

That is why, even though she sees herself as a woman, she often tells herself and other people that she is not a lady. Despite others telling her that she is one. Her insecurity and her frustrations do not allow her to see herself as a lady because she isn’t a “conventional woman.”

But the thing is, even though Arya doesn’t enjoy most of the typical lady-like things, she still has a ton of femininity to her. And people often ignore her more feminine traits in favor of her more “badassery” side, which unfortunately are most often occupied by men. People forget and downright ignore that Arya is really intelligent. She particularly excels in math. It’s one of the few things that she’s better at than Sansa. She loves flowers—like her aunt Lyanna. The very person who she’s said to look and act like the most. And a really important one is that she has motherly instincts. It’s what helps her protect other kids throughout her journey. Her ability to empathize enables her to be more social with outcasts and befriend others without judgement. She is well-mannered and kind to strangers. (An example of this would be when she apologizes to a common woman who lent her a dress to wear, and she accidentally destroys it because she and Gendry were playing by the acorn tree.) She can also cook and clean just like any other woman—or any other person. All of those are feminine traits, and are traits that make her more human. And the show opted to get rid of all that and gave us some cold-hearted, angry, ninja.

The audience perceives that because Arya is this ninja warrior who rejects the common standards of being a lady, it means that she can’t have these other more female traits. Nope. She’s not allowed to have or want more rights and power because that’s not her. She’s a warrior and nothing more. She can’t find love because she has to be this bad-ass independent woman who don’t need no man. That’s not her, that’s her sister. We can’t have Arya be any more female than she already is because she rejects the idea of being female. Leave all that crap to her sister! Sansa’s the princess—and we can’t have Arya being a princess or queen. Arya’s only allowed to carry a sword.

And it’s the audience’s perception of her that goes against everything that Arya is, and everything that she believes in. Because remember, Arya hates the idea that being a lady means being trapped in the societal norms. And it can be said vice versa too. Arya still respects those who want to be more of the conventional type. Arya may not have the more typical feminine traits that make her a lady, but to hell with it! It doesn’t mean that she’s not allowed to have the other things that the more conventional woman would/should have. That goes against all of her views and beliefs. The audience puts Arya at an unfair standard because she doesn’t act like a conventional woman.

It’s the same thing as the audience saying that Jon Snow doesn’t want a title or power, because he’s devoted his life to the Nights Watch and is unselfish. False. Very false. Just like Arya. Arya’s young. She still has time to grow, and no doubt she doesn’t think of all those things now because of other priorities. But she’s slowly getting there. And there is so much foreshadowing of her finding love, becoming a woman gaining power, etc, etc. She’s not there yet, but that’s a part of her growth. Just because she defies the typical female standards, it doesn’t mean she doesn’t want or wont want all those things later.

Like com’on. Everyone knows that Arya is the only legitimate candidate right now to inherit the North. Everyone knows. The Northmen know, the Nights Watch knows, the people in Kings Landing knows. Hell, even the damn wildings know this. And it’s because of this knowledge that formed the majority of the northern plotline in ADWD. People are going to war for her. She is the true key to the North, and that’s why the Boltons lied and said that they have her. It’s why Jon went to war and died for her. I don’t think Arya will truly believe it if/when she finds out that people are fighting for her because she holds the power to the North. Unless Jon’s gonna be the one to tell her himself. The fact that she is being set up to inherit all this power, and yet people deny it and believe that she doesn’t want it because it’s “not her” in regards that she’s not feminine enough, is seriously infuriating.

I mean look at the type of women Arya respects and idolizes. Where do you think she got the name Nymeria from? Nymeria’s name originates from the Princess of Dorne herself, Princess Nymeria of Ny Sar. Princess Nymeria was said be very beautiful, strong-willed, cunning, and full of wisdom. She was a “warrior-queen.” From that alone, her femininity clearly did not matter. She was a woman whose goals were not held back because of her femininity and sex.

Arya does not hate femininity or things that makes women more feminine. She doesn’t truly hate wearing dresses or being a lady. It’s being conformed to the general standards that she hates. It’s her sex being used against her that makes her angry. It’s not being able to be herself that she despises. And thanks to Sansa and her mother’s judgement of her, Arya’s insecurity only heightened. Despite looking exactly like Lyanna, Arya herself believes that she’s not beautiful enough to even be considered a lady. Only Jon and Ned allowed Arya to be Arya. Only they called her beautiful, and only they encouraged her to be who she wanted to be. Arya loves her fellow women. And yeah, she also loves Sansa despite her being such a pain in the ass bitch, lol.

Arya’s character encourages women to just be women. She encourages us the audience to just be ourselves despite all the conformities forced upon us. Her character explores the limitations of sex, gender, and especially the loss of identity. Arya not wanting to be a lady doesn’t actually mean she doesn’t want to be a lady. She doesn’t want to be held back by the standards of being a lady. Her question, her argument is that why should women be limited only to being this or that. Women are far more than meets the typical standard, and if society can’t accept it, then fuck that! Women can be knights and still be a lady. They can be fierce and passionate and emotional and still be a lady. Women can be warriors and still be a lady. Just because there are some women out there who don’t fit the ideal standards of what it means to be lady, it shouldn’t make them feel like less than one.

#Arya Stark #Arya Stark meta #game of thrones #a song of ice and fire #asoiaf #jon snow #Gendry Baratheon #Jonrya #Gendrya #Arya is a feminist #When is TWOW come out?! I miss her!!#Also shes going through puberty in the next book so uh that’ll be interesting hm?#Ya’ll Dany may be going mad in the books too #But I mean Dany and Arya NEED to interact at least 1 pls George give it to me :(#Anti GOT

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fedonciadale · 3 years

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Hi Fedon! I’ve been following the Jonsa community for a while now, and obviously I’ve experienced the nastiness and absurdity of the Dany and Arya stans. But where did they get the idea that we (as in Jonsa and/or Sansa stans) bully and oppress them? I mean, from what I’ve seen it’s exactly the opposite. Are there really Jonsas or Sansa stans that “hate every woman who isn’t traditionally feminine”? That don’t want Arya to grow up beautiful because then she would “threaten Sansa’s beauty”? Did some of us really have racial tendencies towards the Dany fandom? And misinterpret Sansa’s character? I mean, actually misinterpret it, not the “misinterpretation” as they see it, which is recognizing her importance in the narrative and loving it when she finally breaks free from her abusers and can speak her mind without fear of the consequences. I’ve read such wild takes, and I wonder where it all started. I mean, are they making that shit up? Are they taking bits from metas out of context? I’m asking because never, in my experience, I’ve found a single Jonsa saying the things they claim we say. I’m genuinely confused, and wonder if there are really some people who say those things and I’ve missed it. My experience in this fandom has been absolutely lovely, and this is honestly one of the best I’ve ever been in. I’m sure that there’s a “black sheep” everywhere, but I’ve never witnessed anything remotely similar to what Dany/Arya stans claim we say. Condoning slavery? Xenophobic? Patriarchal? Where???

Hi there!

I honestly can’t say that I’ve seen any of this either, but that does not necessarily mean that it is not there. I think there are several aspects as to why A and D stans claim this.

a) Ship wars can be pretty nasty and since A and D stans don’t accept the show ending as canon, there won’t be a solution any time soon. So there is no way how this can die down (unless GRRM spills his ending).

b) Jonsa or even only the idea that Sansa is one of the main characters has fucked up so many theories that were around for decades and people who have believed these ideas have reacted rather nasty to the idea of Jonsa. Hence the vitriol.

c) By now the Jonsa fandom (and to a lesser extent the Sansa fans) are the scapegoats of the fandom. Even character stans or ship stans who have absolutely no interaction with us react the same: When in doubt blame a Jonsa. It’s a knee jerk reaction. You can sure count on getting notes if you claim you’ve seen something on a Jonsa blog. Or just cut out the sentences that you can make fun off. And nobody is going to check.

d) It has become common (or maybe it always was) to not be very picky about how fandom questions are discussed. You could of course try to differentiate, but usually people do not want to do it. It makes things too complex, too difficult and at the end of the day you might have to admit that on the other side of the screen is a real person and not some hateful ‘enemy’. For this reason discourse is reduced to some ready to go insults. The best example for this is the following thought chain: Dany fights against slavery - This person is anti-Dany - Therefore they are condoning slavery. There are several logical fallacies there: The first is obviously that Dany does not really fight slavery (she wants an army) - The second is that criticizing Dany’s actions does not necessarily mean you are anti - The third is that you even can dislike a character and that still doesn’t mean that you are against Dany’s goals (if the abolition of slavery were her goal, but I digress). People take a short-cut, jump to conclusions and decide that this is how Jonsas think. It’s not that Jonsas think that it’s that they take our opinion and extrapolate what this opinion might mean and they do it in such a way that they can blame us of holding opinions that are absolutely despicable.

You can look at that anon that discussed with me about the fact that me being a fan of Sansa means that I support partriarchy, that Sansa supports patriarchy. You can actually see with every ask how they jumped to conclusions.

I want to stress that a) I don’t think all A and D stans (there are many I’ve never seen) do that and b) I actually think that they don’t necessarily do that by intention. It’s just the tendency of ‘othering’ Jonsas and that makes it easy to jump to conclusion and end somewhere that makes the Jonsas look as bad as possible.

TLDR: What they see on Jonsa blogs: “I really dislike Dany”

What they make of it: “Look at that despicable person who condones slavery.”

What they see: “I don’t think Dany has a valid claim to rule the North”

What they make of it: “Dany was born outside of Westeros. If they don’t want her as a ruler they must be xenophic.”

What they see: “Sansa is an important character that is actually feminine.”

What they make of it: “They want feminine, gender conforming women to win. They must be pro-patriarchy.”

So, I just try to stay away from them. And I agree, the Jonsa fandom and Sansa fans are usually a nice place!

Thanks for the ask!

#anon ask #Jonsa #Sansa Stark #Sansa Stark defence squad #Why is Jonsa hated?#Some misconceptions of the antis

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torchwood-99 · 3 years

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Jon’s Illegitimacy and Sansa’s Attitude Towards it Defines Their Relationship

Sansa does think Jon is lesser for being a bastard. Whereas the others may internalise some of the prejudices against bastards, and refer to Jon as one or as a half brother, the difference is that this does not define their relationship. Robb and Jon are devoted to each other. Bran worships Jon and looks up to him. As Rickon is so young and doesn’t understand the difference between his birth and Jon’s, there’s less to go off, but GRRM makes a point of Rickon stopping halfway through the feast procession because he wanted to talk to Jon, ad had to be encouraged to leave his brother. Arya and Jon are each other’s greatest loves and confidants, and are so close in part because he is a bastard, and they have a mutual understanding of what it’s like to be unsure of their place in the world. So although there are strains because of Jon’s birth, most of all there is intense love, affection and companionship. He is a bastard, but before that he is their brother. They do not love or value him any less for being a bastard, and Jon knows this.

Whereas in Sansa’s eyes, Jon is very much defined by being her ‘bastard half brother’. His worth to her is diminished due to being a bastard. When she thinks of him later in the books, she outright states that he is less precious to her for being her half-brother. They still show affection for each other and have some loving memories from their shared childhood, but both acknowledge the relative distance between the two due Sansa’s attitude towards Jon’s bastard birth.

“She had not thought of Jon in ages. He was only her half brother, but still … with Robb and Bran and Rickon dead, Jon Snow was the only brother that remained to her. I am a bastard too now, just like him. Oh, it would be so sweet, to see him once again.“

Only. Although she would like to see him, she sees him as a consolation for her true-born, full brothers. Whereas the others would love to see Jon just as much as they would anyone else they had lost. Arya loves Jon above all else, Robb and Bran make plans to ride to the Wall and visit him, Robb even decides to make Jon his heir. So while all the other siblings to some extent take in bastard prejudice, it is Sansa alone who loves Jon less for it. ‘He was only her half-brother’.

And Jon knows this. That there is a difference between Sansa’s attitude towards Jon’s bastard birth, and his other siblings, is also spelled out by Jon.

‘He missed his true brothers: little Rickon, bright eyes shining as he begged for a sweet; Robb, his rival and best friend and constant companion; Bran, stubborn and curious, always wanting to follow and join in whatever Jon and Robb were doing. He missed the girls too, even Sansa, who never called him anything but “my half brother” since she was old enough to understand what bastard meant. And Arya … he missed her even more than Robb, skinny little thing that she was, all scraped knees and tangled hair and torn clothes, so fierce and willful.’

‘Even Sansa’.

Just like Sansa’s line about Jon ‘only’ being a half brother, that ‘even’ shows that Sansa is less precious to him than his other siblings. Whereas while he thinks of the others and misses them for their individual personalities and the unique bonds he shares with each of them, Jon misses despite her attitude towards him. Jon misses his other siblings ‘because’ of xyz, Jon misses Sansa despite.

Here, Sansa is set apart from her siblings in Jon’s eyes. Her referring to him as ‘half-brother’ is directly linked to Sansa being conscious of Jon’s ‘shameful’ bastard birth. What is particularly key in this line is ‘she never called him anything but “my half brother” since she was old enough to understand what bastard meant’. Never. Sansa never let the distinction between their birth be forgotten. She makes sure to draw a clear line between him, an her full brothers, specifically because he is a bastard. He is a bastard before he is a brother. Even though the others do refer to Jon as their half brother or bastard brother, Jon only comments on Sansa and separates her from the others due to her form of address, which means it is Sansa’s attitude towards Jon’s birth alone that is significant enough to warrant the line ‘Even Sansa’. This can be explained by Sansa correcting Arya when Arya calls Jon their brother. Sansa will not let Jon’s bastard birth be forgotten. He is their half-brother, he is not like them. That cannot be overlooked. No one is under any illusion that Jon has a different mother, Arya knows that fully well. But Sansa will not let Jon’s bastardy go unremarked upon. In her eyes, it defines him. That ‘Even Sansa’ shows without doubt that Jon is less close to Sansa, and the following line spells out it is because of her attitude towards his birth.

There are many reasons why Sansa would look down on Jon. She is young, she is internalising the attitudes of the people who act as her role model, she is anxious to be proper and correct, which means keeping people in their place, she sympathises with her mother’s position as Sansa expects to live a life like her mother’s, and so far Sansa has thrived and been applauded for fitting so well in a society that deems Jon as lesser, so she respects those social mores because if they are valued then she is valued for living up to them. None of these are unforgivable, just as Cat’s attitude towards Jon doesn’t make me dislike her (if anything it makes me like her more because it is a very human reaction from someone who has no other socially accepted outlet for that source of pain and humiliation, and adds complexity to Catelyn’s character), but whatever the reason, Sansa does look down on Jon for being a bastard in a way that her siblings do not. The text outright states in both their POVS that both of them prefer their other siblings to each other, because Sansa thinks Jon is lesser than her true born brothers, and Jon is very aware of that.

What is more, whereas Sansa unrelentingly supports the status quo that marks Jon as lesser and reinforces Jon’s feelings of inadequacies of being a bastard, Robb, Arya and Bran all express indignation on Jon’s behalf, or push back against the stigma of being a bastard. Bran notes in his first chapter what a sacrifice Jon was making when he counted five wolf pups and talked about their being five children, leaving himself out, and Bran is filled with love with him for it because he recognises how much it must hurt Jon to leave himself out, and respects Jon for doing so. In Arya’s first chapter she and Jon talk about the respective unfairness of being a bastard and a girl, and Arya declares the whole thing to be unfair. She also defends Jon against Sansa and insists on calling him ‘their brother’ when Sansa is condescending towards Jon. In the face of Sansa’s snobbery, Arya pushes back. And Robb goes so far so as to choose Jon as his heir when it seems Bran and Rickon are dead, because he loves and trusts Jon and knows that Jon would never do anything to hurt his children should he have any. A young Robb repeating what his mother said about Jon never inheriting, and others occasionally showing some signs of internalising anti-bastard prejudice or even just acknowledging Jon’s birth, doesn’t really measure up against how much they effusively, openly and whole-heartedly love Jon and resent any pain caused to him because of his bastard birth.

So Sansa and Jon do love each other less than their other siblings. This is because of Jon’s bastard birth and how Sansa thinks Jon is lesser because of it. Jon remembering Sansa singing and Sansa giving Jon advice on how to talk girls does not negate this. It is stated as plainly in the text as possible, and is confirmed in both their POVs. It is as much a fact as Jon’s hair being dark and Sansa’s hair being red.

#Jon Snow #ASOIAF #A Song of Ice and Fire #Jon & Robb #Jon & Bran #Jon & Arya

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jackoshadows · 3 years

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regarding jon/dany endgame if they don't end up ruling is it possible they may end up somewhere in essos (bc origins of their targaryen ancestors) or rather asshai/shadowlands beyond asshai as another alternative instead of living somewhere beyond the wall?

I doubt either of them end up in Essos. IMO, GRRM is not really invested in Essos as a location - that's just a place for some of his characters to have growth and build up their character arcs, but his real story is happening in Westeros.

Does Dany have a connection to her Targaryen ancestry in Essos? I don't know, maybe Dany stans have a clearer picture of this. I maybe wrong on this, but I have always connected the character's desire for family to her relatively happier childhood spend in the house with the red door and lemon trees outside her window in Braavos. And not specifically to a Targaryen ancestry as such. And well, Jon has no connection to Essos at all.

Maybe being with family would mean more to her than being in a specific location?

I just don't think that any of our characters will be going back to Essos in the last book. GRRM did not even plan to have Dany and Arya spend so much time there initially. If he had implemented his 5 year gap, he would have covered their stories there through a montage. It was the stories in Westeros - ex: Jon at the wall or Cersei in KL - that killed his 5 year time gap plan. In the originally planned trilogy, Dany spends just one book there while Arya does not go to Essos at all.

This disregard for Essos is evident in the Orientalism in his writing. Where are the equivalent of Tormund Giantsbane and Mance Raydar for the Dothraki and the Unsullied? Notice the difference in how Ygritte and Khal Drogo were written? The Dothraki - apparently based on Mongol culture are mostly written as superstitious, barbaric, and savage:

The Dothraki are partially based on the Huns and the Mongols, some extent the steppe tribes like the Alvars and Magyars. I put in a few elements of the Amerindian plains tribes and those peoples, and then I threw in some purely fantasy elements. It’s fantasy. Are they barbaric? Yeah, but the Mongols were, too.

In actuality, the Mongols were smart, hired Chinese engineers to build siege weapons and have used ships, infantry and armor.

Notice how the Iron Born - who can be compared to the Vikings - have several POV characters who play important roles. Notice how the Wildlings/Freefolk are humanized and play a big role in the story at the Wall and the North. And then we have the cartoonishly evil Essosi Slavers who crucify and castrate children and kill puppies while Westeros is anti slavery - when barbaric slavery was a big feature of European cultures and European colonialism.

Robert Jordan and Frank Herbert have also appropriated middle eastern cultures which they then populate with white people in their fantasy worlds. The difference being that these cultures - for ex: The Aiel and the Fremen in Wheel of Time and Dune - play large, central roles in the story. In ASoIaF, GRRM otherizes the 'East' and highlights their differences as being bad, savage, barbaric, uncouth and allots them no POV characters. He's uses the Roman Toga - Tokar - for the slave masters, but they are in Essos and not for example in Westeros - which is based on Europe, England and Scotland where our heroes and good guys are located.

The fantasy aspects/mythology of Essos - asshai/shadowlands/Valyria/Quaithe/House of the Undying/Faceless Men etc. - are indeed fascinating and it will be interesting to see how GRRM connects them to the central question of the Others beyond the wall and how to defeat them.

But again, GRRM has important POV characters at the Wall and beyond - Bran, Jon, Melisandre - and more converging there, while Dany and Arya will be leaving Essos soon and heading towards this conflict themselves. Dany is going to be massively involved in the fight against the Others, Jon has no connection to Essos.

So no, I don't see Jon and Dany heading towards Essos. I can see why Dany fans would want this for her - considering she would have spend the majority of the series there and the Dothraki/Unsullied are her people and she has a connection to them.

But I think that GRRM does not feel as strongly about the Dothraki/Unsullied/people of Meereen and the eastern cultures as he feels about the Freefolk, the North and Westerosi cast of characters. Which is understandable considering he is an old white man who has spend decades reading up on European history and feels more of a connection to them than to the eastern cultures he has badly depicted in his fantasy series.

So yeah. If Jon and Dany do survive the series and have to disappear and pretend to be dead or something like that - I see them in the Lands beyond the Wall. And not in Essos.

#asks

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falconstarfall · 4 years

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I definitely don’t think grrm tried to make Sansa bad in any way, even during agot. People often claim that he was making her evil or a bully but he gives her way more depth. Arya’s first chapter has a ton of opportunities to show Sansa as mean or awful and it really doesn’t. She covers for Arya, doesn’t laugh or smirk when she’s caught, and she’s even kind to Beth. Arya doesn’t even think of Sansa calling her horseface. The worst thing she does is call Jon a bastard but literally everyone does, including all of the Stark siblings. It’s easy to fall into the POV trap with Arya but if you look at what actually happens in Arya’s first chapter, not Arya’s thoughts on it, Sansa looks good. I actually think that grrm was trying to lay foundation for bias in narrators.

I think an interesting thing to consider is how the order of POVs impacts how people see characters. We first see Jon and Robb through Bran’s eyes and they both seem very sweet and kind to their little brother. We then see Jon’s own POV. How would our first thoughts on him change if Jon had the first chapter? With Sansa and Arya, the introduction to their dynamic is in Arya’s POV. So of course most readers will originally be on Arya’s side. What if Sansa had a chapter in Winterfell and Arya’s first one was on the Trident? Would how we see them change? I always like thinking about that.

This is exactly what I always think when antis talk about how awful Sansa is, especially in AGoT.

I mean, GRRM is an excellent writer of characters. He doesn’t shy away from writing unlikable children, or from letting even his favourite characters be occasionally mean - or downright awful people.

If he really didn’ t like Sansa and meant for her to be a villain, why not just write her as such? Why go to that extent to let (some people) be biased against her, while still having her do nothing awful on the page? Why write her in such a way that people have to blame her for adult’s actions and for decisions made on a lack of information, and even make up things that she “probably” did that we don’t see her do on the pages - like bully Arya or have a haugthy attitude - to build their case that she is actually horrible? I mean, if you have to twist and bend the text, and even ignore large parts of it, to arrive at the conclusion that Sansa is actually supposed to be unlikable, you are doing the reading a book thing wrong.

I do think the order of the chapters have a huge significance, and I do think people in general would have liked Sansa better if we had been presented to her from her own optimistic, hopeful view of the future and her motivations for wanting to go. We mostly get those at a point when readers already dislike her and tend to write off her poetic side and her dreams as self absorbed and naive.

Changing that would have meant more than changing the order of the chapters; it would have meant GRRM would have had to spend more time inside Sansa’s head from the outset, at a point where nothing dramatic happens and she would have time to reflect on a lot of things. I would personally have liked it if GRRM could have given some insight into how hard she always tries to please people, which is something we can gather from her chapters and Catelyn’s but are never told directly from her own POV. Which means that antis are just completely blind to how hard work it can be to live up to the role of the perfect child.

I don’t think changing the order would necessarily have had a huge impact on the way people perceive Sansa’s relationship with Arya though. We would have been without the POV-trap introduction, but GRRM is still employing some common tropes in his characterization that I think would have served to still make a lot of readers think he is writing a high school drama where pretty + popular = mean.

#sansa stark #books laughter love #anti Arya stans #sansa stark defense squad

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shieldofrohan · 4 years

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I was looking at your blog & oh boy you do not like Arya haha which is perfectly valid 😅 tbh I feel like it's more common to come across Arya stans who HATE sansa whereas with Sansa stans I can only really think of a few that hate arya. most of the time they like her (which I personally do, but Sansa's my baby ultimately) or they're indifferent towards her. Ofc I'm sure someone will claim that those fans only pretend to like arya lol

Hello,

LOL. Actually if you check my "anti arya" tag carefully you can see that what I hate about her is the way GRRM writes her.

I don’t like that he wrote two sisters not getting along to create a family drama (I have 2 sisters so believe me brothers can’t image the bond that sisters can create) and he bluntly wanted his readers to favor the tomboy.

I didn’t like his take of feminist Arya where she says “women are important too” (which is sth I like about her) but she keeps calling girly things stupid- to a certain extent I understand why she looks down at girly things: because she feels herself failing as a girl so this is her way of dealing with this- but it happens a lot which bothers me as a “girl”. Because this is just making Arya a cliche tomboy.

I don’t like the way he wrote her as a child murderer and she later says she would kill that boy again if it means to go home etc. This girl is 9 years old. Why did he make her so dark and blood thirsty? Some fans love this about her but I think these kind of things hurt her characterization because it makes me question her a lot..

She is extremely full of anger that she even kicks a corpse of a Stark man… WTF?

She wants to learn how to become an assassin? Who the fck does that?! She finds the right to execute people in herself.??

She has lines like I am thirsty for blood etc.. So disturbing and also cliche.

Arya’s characterization bothers me a lot. I find her very dark when I compare her with other Starklings. And a 9 year old girl being this much dark makes me wary. And it makes her unrealistic in my eyes. This is why I can’t enjoy her.

Look, I would find an evil child interesting… but she is not even evil and GRRM still considers her one of the heroes of the series. And I think she passed beyond the grey zone… she is way too dark for me to keep considering her a hero (maybe an anti hero… IDK)

So I just think Grrm overstept the limit with Arya. She kind of reminds me Tyrion (no wonder these two are his favorite characters). I think he enjoys pushing the limits when he writes darker parts and in Arya’s case I believe that he made her too dark and therefore way too unrealistic.

My anti arya takes are usually about her fans not seeing her flaws and but they attack Sansa for the flaws that she does not possess. So I guess I sound very anti in those times. I totally don’t like her but I don’t hate her like the way I hate Tyrion. I see her case as one of author’s errors and this bothers me and IMO it hurst the story.

I don’t want her ending up bad… I just simply don’t care. I am gonna read her last POV in the books and feel nothing and move on. But I truly don’t wish sth bad for her and I am curious about her relationship with Sansa after they reunite. So I only care about her as a plot. Not as a character because I lost my enthusiasm for her. I strongly believe that Grrm could have written her better without going in the route of “bitter tomboy who is way too dark”.

I can’t talk for other Sansa stans. I know most of them love her and I think this is very nice of them but nah.. I am not that vanilla hearted. (lol)

So in conclusion: I don’t care about her anymore that much. I hope she ends up well.

Thanks for the ask.

#answered #reply #ask #anti arya stark #anti grrm #anti arya stans

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rainhadaenerys · 4 years

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Post season 8 fix-it headcanon/Jonerys fanfic outline

For Daenerys Resurrection Week, Day 1: Resurrection and forgiveness

A long time ago I commented here that I had written an outline for a post season 8 fix-it fanfic. And I did write some things, mostly about the political situation in the story, and character's motivations. As far as actually coming up with a proper story and proper scenes though, I didn't really go very far. And to be honest I really don't feel like writing fics, I'd rather spend my energy on metas. But I wanted to share my headcanon anyway.

To start, my headcanon is canon-compliant. I appreciate fix-it AUs, but I have a problem with them because I always feel the need to acknowledge canon. So I acknowledge everything that happened in season 8. But in my headcanon, I completely absolve Dany of everything. Instead, I tend to think Bran warged into Dany and made her burn King's Landing, urged by Sansa. So yeah, this is not for Stark fans. My headcanon is pretty much anti everyone but Dany and Jon. (By the way, if anyone has seen any fic with this premise, and that follows season 8 canon, can you please tell me? I don't know why, but it seems no one has thought of this so far? Or maybe I just haven't seen it, since I don't read a lot of fanfic, but I would appreciate reading a fic like this)

Ok, but now you're probably thinking, but why would Bran do this? Why would Sansa tell him to do this? Isn't it OOC? That's where my complete reinterpretation of Bran and Sansa's characters start. I'm sorry I had to vilify them, but I see no other way to completely absolve Dany.

First, Bran: When Bran had met Bloodraven, Bloodraven had hoped that by teaching Bran his abilities, he would have someone to help him look into the past and find an easier way to defeat the Night King. Probably, the children of the forest told him about something (like, maybe, some hidden magical artifact), but they didn’t know where this magical artifact was. So Bloodraven thought having another person with the Three Eyed Raven’s powers would help defeat the Night King. Bran followed Bloodraven’s instructions faithfully, but in the end, he didn’t find anything that would help, and that’s why he was useless in the War for the Dawn. The reason why the Night King was going after Bran was because the Night King knew Bran had the powers to find out his secret and destroy him easily (ie, without a battle). But Bran wasn’t able to do this in the end.

But Bran’s journey to become the three eyed raven wasn’t meaningless to the story. As Jojen once warned Bran, if he spent too much time inside the mind of a wolf, he would lose himself. And this is what happened. Bran spent most of his time warging on ravens, wolves, trees, trying to find the answer. He had seen in his future visions that the Night King would be defeated, so he wasn’t much worried about that (which explains his calm behavior when the Night King came to kill him), but he didn’t know exactly how, he thought he would be the one to do it, so he worked tirelessly and warged tirelessly (btw, Bran’s future visions are more flawed. He can look into the past easily if he knows what to look for, but the future isn’t as clear and it changes constantly, it is based on possibilities). Bloodraven had time to adapt before he spent most of his time warging. Bran didn’t have that time, because the need was urgent, so the time spent warging animals and trees made him start losing his humanity, in the sense that he stopped caring, and stopped having as much empathy. He loved his family to some extent, and he still had some sense of self preservation, but he had almost no empathy left for others.

Now, let's talk about Sansa. Sansa, during her journey, became a hardened woman. Unlike book Sansa, who keeps her kindness, show!Sansa has absorbed the lessons her abusers taught her: don’t trust anyone, look out only for yourself, take any advantage you can manage. This is what Sansa has been doing for quite some time. She doesn’t tell the truth about who killed Lysa Arryn, and the reason for this isn’t that she’s afraid of Littlefinger and sees no other choice. No. Sansa has entirely embraced Littlefinger and his plans. She later resents him for selling her to the Boltons, but this experience just leaves her more traumatized. So Sansa becomes a different person: her trauma makes her look out only for herself. She had always wished for power (since season 1 she wanted to be queen), and this hasn't changed, but now, it's also tied with her traumas: she wants power as a way for her to feel in control after lacking agency for so long.

So here's how I would interpret Sansa's actions since she escaped the Boltons. In season 6, when Littlefinger reminds Sansa that Jon is a threat to her, and only her half brother, Sansa starts plotting against him. She secretly corresponds with Littlefinger, and doesn’t tell Jon about the Vale army. She does this for different reasons: she thought that by doing this, Jon and Rickon had more chance to die, and she could become queen without Jon there to threaten her power. She also wanted to be seen as the hero of the battle, the one that saved them at the last minute, so she could have more chances of becoming queen. Not only that, but she didn’t want the Wildlings in the North and saw them as expendable. They were only a tool to her. She wanted to use them to get her lands and titles back, and used the fact that Jon saved them to try to convince Jon that they should fight (Sansa does say in season 6 that the Wildlings should fight for Winterfell because they owe Jon their lives). So she saw them as expendable tools to get Winterfell back, but she also didn’t care that they would die because she withheld information about the Vale army: the less foreign savages in the North, the better. When she doesn’t get her position of Queen in the North, she starts undermining Jon deliberately. Jon asks her to stop, but she continues doing it. When Bran returns, she offers Bran the position of Lord of Winterfell, and is relieved that he doesn’t want it. When the lords talk about putting her in Jon’s place, she doesn’t reprimand them. In her conflict with Arya, she was indeed going to kill Arya. After all, she sends Brienne away after Littlefinger reminds her that Brienne is sworn to protect both her and Arya. She only doesn’t kill Arya because she goes to Bran and learns that Littlefinger was manipulating her, and she realizes that Littlefinger is a bigger threat than Arya. She was fine in keeping Littlefinger as an ally before, she didn’t care about all the horrible things he did, but she realizes that keeping him alive would be more dangerous than advantageous. So she makes a sham trial to kill him, while also omitting her involvement in Littlefinger’s schemes in the Vale and the fact that she knew about them.

So by the time Dany gets to Winterfell, Sansa is a person that only cares about her position and privileges. When she hears Dany talking about her reforms in favor of the smallfolk, she is scandalized. Unlike book!Sansa, show!Sansa never lived as a bastard, and keeps her classism. Sansa is against Dany not because of pettiness or stupid distrust, but because she feels her power threatened, and because she thinks Dany is a tyrant for wanting to take away the privileges of the nobility. So Sansa tries to undermine Dany in every way she can: publicly telling Dany that she and her armies aren’t welcome; badmouthing Dany while Dany is fighting for her. When Sansa sees Dany giving Storm’s End to Gendry, she hates seeing it because she thinks giving Storm’s End to a bastard is an absurd (after all, she was usurped by her bastard brother) and also because if the Northern Lords see Dany’s generosity, they might not be so against her, especially after Dany fought for them. Finally, Sansa betrays the oath she swore to Jon in the godswood, telling Tyrion Jon’s secret, not necessarily because she wants Jon to be king, but because she wants to overthrow Dany. And she knows that if her plans succeeds, Dany will end up dead and no longer a threat. She doesn’t care that this could spark a civil war and that innocents could die. She doesn't care that she's plotting the death of a woman that just saved her. She only wants to retain her power, and she wouldn’t be allowed to do that if Dany actually “broke the wheel”. She continues not to care about anyone but herself by humiliating Edmure when he speaks (because she wants herself to be queen), and when Tyrion suggests Bran, she undermines him as well: first saying that Bran can’t rule because he doesn’t want it and can’t have children, and later by asking for independence, knowing that asking for independence would just lead to political instability and possibly war, but not caring about it, because she wants to be queen. So these are Sansa’s motivations.

So how would the idea of Bran warging into Dany work? Well, Bran has future visions. He doesn't choose to have them, they happen to him, and they are uncertain. But as we did see twice, Bran saw a dragon flying over King's Landing, and he saw the throne room destroyed. He later tells people in the Dragonpit that he knew he was going to be king. This implies that he didn't just have a vision of a dragon over King's Landing, but that he also had more detailed visions of what would happen later. He also tells Jon that Jon was "exactly where he has supposed to be", which implies that he knew Jon would kill Dany. So Bran knew many things: knew a dragon would fly over King's Landing, knew the throne room would be destroyed, knew Jon would kill Dany (meaning that he probably knew Dany was going to be responsible for the destruction), and knew the political ramifications of all that (he was going to be king). I think that, despite the fact his visions of the future are not as exact as visions of the past and present, every evidence seems to point out that Bran knew Dany would destroy King's Landing. So I choose to believe that he saw Dany, at the back of a dragon, burning everything, and all the subsequent events that happened with it.

So maybe, Bran started looking into the future and saw Dany becoming more and more depressed. He thought this would make her burn King's Landing. And he has seen how much Sansa craves power, and he still has some loyalty to his family. So he really has no interest in preventing an outcome that gets his family on top, and given that he has lost much of his empathy due to too much time warging on animais and trees, he doesn't really try to do anything to prevent the burning of King's Landing. He doesn't warn Dany or Jon. He tells Jon the truth about his parentage even though he knows that the truth would cause chaos. And so on.

At some point, he tells Sansa what's going to happen. And Sansa also does nothing to prevent it, and instead, wants to make it happen (like when she tells the truth of Jon's parentage). She takes Bran's visions of Dany burning King's Landing as a confirmation of her bias against Dany, which makes her feel righteous in her actions. And she wants House Stark on top, so she doesn't really stop to think that maybe, just maybe, she should be trying to prevent this from happening.

So when Dany marchs south, and attacks King's Landing, Bran watches over things to see what's happening, and Sansa waits by his side for him to tell her the news. But as time passes, nothing happens. Dany is not burning King's Landing as they expected. She is only attacking the soldiers, and is close to winning without bloodshed (This did, in fact, happen in the show. Dany never attacks any civilians before the bells, she only attacks military targets). Sansa starts to get anxious. Sansa was already expecting that she would become queen, and she becomes nervous when this possibility starts to be threatened. Then, when King's Landing surrenders, Sansa gets more desperate, and asks Bran to do something, telling him that they shouldn't allow Dany to stay in power. Bran, dispassionate as he is about everything and not really caring about people, tells Sansa that the possibility of warging into Dany exists. Sansa asks Bran to do it. He asks if she is certain, and in the desperation of the moment, Sansa says yes. So for Sansa, this was about seeing the power that she craved slipping through her fingers once again. For Bran, he was simply doing what Sansa wanted. He didn't particularly care about becoming King, but he didn't really have much empathy for the people of King's Landing, so to him it didn't matter.

Dany doesn't really realize what's happening. She is in a very emotionally fragile state, and she is already feeling certain things like anger and despair. This makes her vulnerable to Bran. A person with the mental strength to resist Bran’s warging could have done it, but Dany couldn't. So when we see Dany shaking her head in episode 8x5, before she starts burning King's Landing, it's because she was fighting against Bran's invasion, but in the end she couldn't resist it. So everything we see from that moment in episode 8x5 until Dany's death, Dany is only vaguely aware of the things she is doing, but is actually being controlled by Bran. And Bran is doing everything to make sure the outcome Sansa desired (Dany's death) happens: after Dany's attack, Bran makes her land with Drogon and makes her give Grey Worm the order to kill the Lannister soldiers that surrendered. He makes the speech about world domination. And Bran's warging is also the explanation why Dany acted so weird in the last episode. It's also the reason Dany didn't have anyone to protect her when Jon came to kill her: Bran made her give orders to her soldiers to leave her alone, and to let Jon come in without taking his weapons. When Jon stabs Dany, it's when Bran finally leaves her mind, and it's the first moment of full awareness she has since Bran warged her. So the betrayal and heartbreak she feels is even worse. She wakes from a trance and sees the man she loves killing her.

Now, you might wonder, why did Bran and Sansa have to go to such extreme lengths? Why didn't they warg a random soldier to do the job and kill Dany, instead of making her burn thousands of innocents to make Jon kill her? Expecting that Jon would make the decision to kill Dany is risky, because he could decide not to do it, and Bran and Sansa's plan would fall apart. But the problem is: they didn't simply want Dany to die. They wanted to destroy her reputation, to make sure that none of her followers could seize power. If Dany simply died, the throne would go to Jon, and measures to break the wheel could still happen. Sansa didn't want this to happen, she didn’t want to lose her privileges, she wanted the herself in power and Dany's forces neutralized. By warging into Dany, they could destroy Dany's reputation, make Tyrion and Jon kill her and destroy their own chances of seizing power, and destroy the chance that Dany's allies could seize power instead of her. With Dany burning King's Landing, Bran and Sansa could spin the narrative that Dany is a radical extremist, and that her wish to make reforms is what made her a tyrant. And so on. So this is why none of them thought of warging someone and making them kill Dany, or warging Dany and making her kill herself. (Besides, I headcanon that warging someone is easier if the person is in a fragile mental state, so maybe trying to warg someone else wouldn't work).

So this is my headcanon to explain Dany burning King's Landing. From this point, everything happens as in the show: Bran and Sansa get their crowns, Arya sails west of Westeros (and dies in a storm because I have no creativity to think of a story for her and I started to hate her show self anyway), Tyrion becomes Hand and Jon is exiled. Drogon obviously, takes Dany to Volantis to resurrect her.

In exile, Jon is miserable. On the one hand, he tells himself he did the right thing. After all, Dany seemed intent on "liberating" more cities, and could maybe kill his family. And regardless of whether she would burn more cities or not, or kill his family or not, he thinks that anyone who would burn innocents for no reason and call it "necessary" shouldn't rule.

On the other hand, Jon blames himself for all the ways he failed Dany. He thinks that he was so caught up in his own angst about his parentage, about how he and Dany were related, that he didn't notice how much she was hurting. So while Jon tells himself he did the right thing in killing her, he also blames himself for not comforting her, for disregarding her fears about the dangers of his parentage coming out and telling the secret to his family, for not standing up more for her. He wonders if he only could have comforted her, then maybe she wouldn’t have ended up like that. He also starts to doubt his decision to kill her: if Dany did what she did because she became mad with grief, then maybe he could have helped her come to her senses. Maybe he didn't have to kill her. Maybe he could have helped her heal. So I headcanon that Jon would be really hard on himself and start to hate himself for killing Dany. (By the way, it's also important to consider Jon's state of mind when he kills Dany. I'm sure seeing thousands of innocents burned by dragonfire must be pretty traumatic, and would push him to decide that killing Dany was necessary).

But not only Jon blames himself, he also starts to blame his family for what they did to Dany. He starts to hate Sansa for conspiring against her (and almost leading to Dany's death, since Sansa telling the truth made Varys try to poison Dany). He blames his family for being so cold to Dany, for using her for her resources and then discarding her, and thinks about how things could have gone differently if they hadn't done these things. And at some point, Jon will remember Bran's cryptic line about him being "exactly where he was supposed to be", and start to get suspicious that Bran knew what Dany would do, and that Bran knew Jon would end up killing her, and did nothing to prevent it. But Jon will brush off these suspicions by thinking that "his family would never do this to him".

Meanwhile, Dany will, obviously, be resurrected. Drogon will take her body to Volantis, but since he is an animal, it's not like he knows what to do with it. So he will rest with her body and mourn her somewhere in Volantis, and some slaves will find him. Said slaves will recognize Dany. They have never seen her, of course, but seeing a silver haired woman and a black dragon, it's not difficult to guess who she is. And they will also mourn her, of course. Dany was a hope to many slaves. These slaves also hoped that Dany would come to save them, so seeing the dragon queen dead is the death of those dreams. They try to get to Drogon, and Drogon, slowly, comes to trust them to get near Dany. They bring a red priestess to where Dany's body is to make the rites usually done for the dead and honor the dragon queen. They don't really tell this to anyone, because they don't want her body to be found and desecrated by slave masters. So the ceremony is done in secret. But something they didn't expect happens: as the priestess gives her the last kiss, Dany is resurrected.

Oh, and as soon as Dany is resurrected, something terrible already happens: she has a miscarriage. Dany had found out she was pregnant very recently, and didn't have time to tell Jon. But since he killed her, the baby died, and didn't come back when she was resurrected. (I don't have the link right now, but I remember reading GRRM say that people who return from the dead are those who feel a strong sense of purpose, and I think a fetus wouldn't have that, so I don't think the baby would be resurrected)

Well, with all of this, Dany is incredibly traumatized. She doesn't know she was being warged by Bran, and she feels guilty for what she thinks she did to King's Landing. She has lost another child, she has lost her hope for the future, the love of her life has killed her. So she falls into depression, and starts to live hidden in Volantis (the red priestess that resurrected her helps her with a spell to prevent Bran from using his powers to see her). She has given up on the idea of helping people. And she doesn’t want to fly on Drogon anymore, because she has horrible flashbacks of what she did to King’s Landing, and because she doesn’t trust herself with a weapon as powerful as Drogon.

But after some time, Dany will start coming back to her former self. She’ll see the suffering of the slaves in Volantis, she will hear the news about Volantis going to war against the cities of Dragon’s Bay in order to re-enslave everyone, and she will hear about how some of the Dothraki have come back to their old ways and are enslaving again, and she’ll decide that she needs to do something about it. This is when she decides to ride Drogon again.

*by the way, here’s a parenthesis about the political situation in Essos*

Volantis has slavery, and is preparing for war against Meereen and Astapor. Meereen and Astapor are still strong and anti-slavery, because Dany left former slaves in the government, and she also left military forces to avoid her new governments being overthrown (like what happened the first time in Astapor, so Dany learned from her mistakes). Daario is still loyal to Dany, because he really loved her (and also because the Meereenese government is paying him to protect the city, so he really has no reason to turn on them). In Yunkai, however, Dany had wanted to do the same thing she did in Astapor (kill all the masters), but Tyrion convinced her not to do it, opting for only cutting the throats of two of the Yunkish leaders. This means that even though Yunkai is being watched by Dany’s army in the region, and they don’t openly sell slaves anymore (lest they provoke a war against Astapor in Meereen, which would be bad now that Yunkai is weakened), the Yunkish leaders are still conspiring to bring back slavery, but this time, instead of funding the Sons of the Harpy (once again, they’re not doing this anymore because Astapor and Meereen are aware that they were the culprits, and the resurgence of the Sons of the Harpy would mean war as well), they are secretly negotiating with Volantis, asking for help (since the end of slavery in Dragon’s Bay meant that the price of slaves went up, and Volantis’ economy was suffering because of this).

Meanwhile, some of the Dothraki returned to Essos. Of the ones that returned, some Dothraki believed in Dany, meaning that they didn’t return to the old ways and some even have hope that she will return, since she’s the Stallion that Mounts the World. While others have made up their own khalasars, and started enslaving and raiding again (even selling slaves to Volantis and other slave cities that remained). These khalasars that returned to the old ways are allied with Volantis.

I don’t really have a headcanon for cities like Pentos, Myr, Tyrosh, Lys and others. I don’t know if they will still have slavery or not. The show doesn’t really mention it as far as I remember, so it could go either way.

*end of parenthesis about Essos*

So Dany starts by seeking for her khalasar, the ones that are in Essos. Some of the Dothraki (the ones that didn’t go back to their old ways and didn’t go back to being slavers) eagerly accept her back. Together with them, Dany starts again her army, and they end up defeating those other khalasars that started enslaving again. So once again, Dany unites the khalasars in Essos. But there are still some Dothraki left in Westeros, so Dany hasn’t reunited all khalasars yet.

After uniting the khalasars in Essos, stopping them from engaging in slavery, and stopping them from selling slaves to Volantis and other cities, at some point, Dany will reunite with the Unsullied. Together with her new khalasar, the Unsullied, and Drogon, Dany will start a war against the slave cities that remain in Essos. She will liberate Volantis and many other cities. She will go back to Slaver’s Bay and destroy the counter-revolutionary movement in Yunkai. She will reunite with Daario too, and things will happen between them, because I ship Dany and Daario, and also because I think Dany deserves to have some physical and emotional comfort before she reunites with Jon.

So with all that Dany is doing in Essos, news of Dany’s resurrection will reach Westeros, and they will greatly worry Bran, Tyrion and Sansa.

*And here’s another parenthesis, about the political situation in Westeros*

Tyrion is now theoretically Lord of Casterly Rock, but the Lannisters of Lannisport are opposing him (and unfortunately, ableism is a part of it). Tyrion has support from some of them, with whom he had a good relationship in the past, but not from most of them (and that fact the he killed Tywin is obviously another reason why many would oppose him). However, most of the Lannisport Lannisters start to die or disappear mysteriously - through suicide, through murder, or simply disappearing. This isn’t Tyrion’s doing, though. He doesn’t know why this is happening, but in the end, only his allies survived, and Tyrion starts to get a better hold on the Westerlands. (What is actually happening is that Bran has spies/ravens and is ordering the killing of those he views as opposition. He does this because he sees no other choice, because the situation in the Six Kingdoms is very chaotic)

In the Reach, Bronn is now lord, which is pissing off many lords (they think it’s an absurd that a sellsword was given Highgarden when many of the Reach families had better claims to it). He has the support of the Tarlys, because Sam’s family wants to support the new regime. But the region is in a chaos. Many lords are rebelling, the smallfolk are rebelling because Bronn is greedy and exploits them, and doesn’t give them justice (They aren’t necessarily hungry, because it’s the Reach. But Bronn is trying to indulge some lords to gain their alliance and be able to contend against the lords that are against him, so he let’s them do whatever they want with the smallfolk and offers the smallfolk no protection). Outlaw groups start to form to fight against Bronn and his allies, but he answers with brutality to those who oppose him or that try to ask him for anything better for the smallfolk. Bronn keeps his own sellsword army, that he rewards greatly to help him stop the smallfolk from claiming for more rights (and spending so much money on sellswords gains Bronn the enmities of some lords and smallfolk). Some of the Unsullied didn’t go to Naath (only Grey Worm’s closest friends went), and stayed in the Reach, and they help the outlaw groups.

The new prince of Dorne doesn’t have any allegiance to Bran. As soon as things calm down, he declares for Independence, given that King Bran gave independence to his own sister. He stops paying tributes, and Bran sends troops (composed of soldiers from the Crownlands, the Westerlands, Riverlands and the Stormlands) against them. The prince of Dorne answers, ready to fight for his independence. Bran brutally crushes his opposition.

Yara and the Ironborn want independence. Yara also resents the Starks for killing Dany, and also for making her brother die for them. She has taken back the Iron Islands from Euron in season 8, but now, without Dany’s support and the fear of dragons, some of the Ironborn don’t want a woman as their queen, and they want to go back to the old ways as Euron promised (while Yara, still loyal to Dany, has decided to uphold her ideals, decreeing that there should be no more raiding and raping). So the Iron Islands declare independence, but they are divided. Yara still has more support (since many of Euron’s supporters died in Dany’s attack to King’s Landing), but the few that don’t follow her start to raid the Riverlands, Westerlands and the North.

Edmure is a good lord, but the Riverlands have suffered greatly from the wars and the winter. When he tries to ask the Iron Throne for help to feed his people, the Iron Throne doesn’t send much. His niece Sansa is not going to help either (as she has her own concerns with food and can’t share), and Edmure starts go get disillusioned with the new regime and with his own family, who won’t help him, and who will also make his people fight in another war (against Dorne), while his people are being attacked by the Ironborn. And he doesn’t forget how Sansa humiliated him at the Dragonpit.

Gendry is loyal to the Starks, but only because he knew Arya and Jon. With both of them gone, his loyalty to King Bran is weak. He cares more about his own smallfolk. Gendry was a lowborn bastard after all, so he wants to do everything he can for them. But with time, he sees that the new regime is not interested in helping the smallfolk, just like they weren’t interested in listening to Sam’s idea of democracy. His loyalty also starts to waver. He also has problems with some lords from the Stormlands that don’t like that some bastard is now in charge, but it’s less than Bronn, since Gendry is indeed trying to be a good lord, and he is indeed Robert Baratheon’s son (he was recognized as such by Stannis Baratheon, and later by Daenerys Targaryen, so now it’s common knowledge).

The North also suffered with the War for the Dawn and the winter. Sansa is regarded as a competent lady by the Northern lords, but she has no love in the North. The Northern Lords kinda just got stuck with her. Sansa had stored grain in Winterfell to feed the castle and her armies, but that only means that the smallfolk in other parts of the North had to give up part of their harvest to send to Winterfell, and now, with the Winter, they are starving. To quell discontentment, Sansa tries bringing food from White Harbour, and Bran also sends her food. The fact that Bran is sending food to his sister for lower prices than usually done when trading with other foreign lands makes the lords of the Six Kingdoms angry. Bran stops sending so much food, so Sansa starts demanding more tributes from White Harbour. This angers Lord Manderly more and more, and Lord Manderly decides to demand for independence. Sansa had publicly complained many times about Dany being a tyrant for not giving her independence, so he uses the same argument Sansa used in the Dragonpit: White Harbour had suffered too much: they had sent their troops to fight the Night King alongside the Starks, but not only that, they had been the ones that most contributed to feeding the North. Because of this, he thinks he deserves independence, just like Sansa argued that she deserved independence from the Seven Kingdoms. He argues that what Sansa did created a precedent for independence, and that it would be tyranny if she refused to give it to him. Sansa is outraged, and sends her troops to make Lord Manderly bend the knee and force him to send food again.

The Vale will stay loyal to the Starks to the end, since they have mostly been left alone, and are not having as much problems with food (they weren’t very affected by wars, and their land is fertile). Nepotism also helps, because Bran won’t demand too much from his family. Edmure, also Bran’s family, was asking for help, but Tyrion advised that Lord Royce, the regent of the Vale and Sweetrobin’s advisor, was a proud man and their most loyal ally, and that angering him and making him send food to the Riverlands would be bad for them (Tyrion was wrong, as always).

By the way, winter isn’t over. Book speculation often said that the Others were the cause of the long winter, but in the show, we saw that there was snow in King’s Landing even after the White Walkers were defeated. So here, we’ll accept the fact that the seasons being long is just a normal thing for their world. After they kill Dany, Westeros goes through a few months of “false spring”, but winter returns stronger than ever after that. Crops die, hunger spreads through the land.

So basically, everything is chaos.

*end of the parenthesis about Westeros*

So with the chaos that is happening in Westeros, and the news of Dany’s return, Bran, Tyrion and Sansa start to get nervous. They pardon Jon, and Sansa sends men after Jon to bring him back from beyond the Wall, because she believes having Jon in Winterfell could serve as a shield in case Dany attacks (she thinks Dany might still love him, or that Jon might be able to negotiate with her. In a last case scenario, she could deliver Jon to Dany to make Dany leave her alone), and also, because she feels lonely, since her entire family left her.

Jon comes back to Winterfell. At some point, he overhears a conversation between Sansa and Maester Wolkan. Maester Wolkan was in the room when Sansa asked Bran to warg into Dany, and he knows the truth. Sansa sworn him to secrecy, but now, he comes to her with news of Dany’s resurrection, and asks Sansa if Dany would want revenge for Bran having warged into her. Sansa answers that she is not sure that Daenerys has memories or if she is aware that she was being warged, and if Daenerys doesn’t remember, she might not seek revenge.

So when Jon overhears this conversation, he learns that Daenerys was innocent, and that she is alive. He is horrified by what his family did, and also feels guilty for not believing in Daenerys, for having trusted his family and dismissed Dany’s fears, and so on. There’s a lot of angst. Jon then pretends he didn’t hear Sansa’s conversation, and pretends that everything is ok. He runs away from Winterfell in the middle of the night, without warning, with the intention of going to Dany.

From this moment on, I’m not really sure of what happens. I like the idea of Jon spending some time in the South, helping outlaw groups in the Reach, and learning about his brother’s tyranny. On the other hand, I don’t know how Jon could escape being seen by Bran’s ravens. So maybe Jon simply takes a ship and goes to Essos. But before he manages to take his ship, I still like to think that he talks with the smallfolk and hears what has been happening in Westeros (since he didn’t hear anything about it when he was exiled beyond the Wall).

Jon and Dany eventually reunite. Jon is brought to her in her war camp (because Dany is still at war with the slavers in Essos). While on the one hand Dany feels angry at Jon for killing her, for not supporting her and for giving up on her, on the other hand, she feels ashamed of what she did in King’s Landing and thinks she deserved to die (after all, Dany herself would have killed a person that burned innocents for no reason). So she accepts to meet Jon, but only with her guards around her, because while she still loves Jon, she is also afraid of him. Dany doesn’t have any intention of getting revenge against Jon, since she feels guilty about what she did. She is curious about what could possibly be the reason for Jon to look for her again, and thinks that he wants to kill her in the name of his family.

Jon is still very confused and tormented, and while a part of him believes that Dany is innocent, another part of him doesn’t want to believe that his siblings would have been capable of doing such an atrocity. So when he and Dany talk, he starts by asking her why she did what she did to King’s Landing. Dany answers that she doesn’t really know. That before she realized, she was doing it, like she couldn’t control herself. She tells Jon that her memories of King’s Landing almost don’t feel real, and that she is ashamed of what she did. This convinces Jon that Dany is indeed innocent, and he tells her the truth.

And this causes a lot of angst, of course. Initially, it makes Dany angry that he didn’t believe in her innocence and that he gave up on her so easily. She accuses him of having betrayed her, of having abandoned her. She also tells Jon that she was pregnant, and that because he killed her, he also killed their child (and this of course, makes Jon feel even more guilty). But with time, the anger passes, and she starts to see Jon as another victim of his family’s machinations (unlike Jon, who was hesitant in believing the worst of his siblings, Dany has a very low opinion of the Starks).

So Dany forgives Jon. They don’t return to their romantic relationship, but consider each other friends. And Jon starts to help her in her fight against slavery in Essos. This makes them content, since neither of them wants to ever return to Westeros. But unfortunately for them, news of Dany’s resurrection have started to reach more people, and lords from Westeros come to her to ask for her help in deposing Bran and the lords loyal to him. Listening to all the things that are happening in Westeros and how much the people are suffering only angers Dany. And it angers Jon as well. So they make plans to return to Westeros. Dany leaves a big part of her army of Unsullied and Dothraki in Essos, so that they could keep on with their fight against the masters. She returns to Westeros mostly with the army of their Westerosi allies (and her dragon, of course).

Dany has in mind a new political system, with a council of noblemen and a council of the smallfolk, so she negotiates with her allies with this in mind, making it clear that if they want to support her claim, they also have to support her reforms She has decided that she won’t hesitate to use force against the lords who don’t accept her reforms.

*another parenthesis*

Since I said I didn’t really have everything figured out, here are some alternatives to the things that I just described:

Maybe the reason Jon went back to Winterfell wasn’t because Sansa called him, but because when Jon was beyond the Wall, he saw that the White Walkers weren’t entirely gone. So maybe, what makes Dany return to Westeros isn’t that she wants revenge or because the lords are asking her to return, but because of the White Walkers. This would leave her conflicted, because the last time she tried to help those people she was betrayed and killed.

Or maybe Dany’s motivation to return to Westeros are just that she wants revenge. In this case, maybe she won’t even accept the alliance with the Lords, because she wants to change things for the common people. Or maybe she makes alliances with lesser lords promising them more political influence and that lesser lords would have as much sway as high lords in her new system (as well as smallfolk would also have more power).

*end of parenthesis*

Whatever Dany’s motivations for returning to Westeros are, she returns to Westeros, takes back the throne, and takes revenge. Dany is no longer the trusting soft person she was when she first went to Westeros. She comes with fire and blood, uses force when she needs to. Bran dies, because he is way too powerful for Dany to keep alive and trust that he won’t warg or spy on anyone again. As for Sansa and Tyrion, I could see different endgames: they could be exiled, imprisoned and kept as hostages, or Dany could kill them both for treason: Sansa because she revealed Jon’s parentage against Jon and Dany’s wishes, and also because of her part in the plan to make Bran warg into Dany; and Tyrion for telling what Sansa told him to Varys without Dany’s permission, which led Varys to try to poison Dany, and Dany could have died due to Tyrion’s actions; though I could see Dany being more lenient towards Tyrion than Sansa, since Sansa’s crimes are more grave. But I don’t see Dany ever accepting him as an advisor again.

Jonerys will reconcile and rule. There might be some conflict with Jon because he doesn’t want to see his family die (which is why there could be the possibility of keeping Sansa alive but as a prisoner), but in the end they get back together, marry and have children. Dany creates a new government in which both smallfolk and lords can have representatives and create laws, and she creates laws that limit the powers of the lords and stops them from abusing the smallfolk. She could also give some autonomy to each of the kingdoms: she doesn’t fully give them independence, but this greater autonomy helps quell the growing wishes for independence from each of the kingdoms.

So that’s my post season 8 headcanon. Dany was entirely innocent, the Starks were the villains, and Bran warged into Dany. Btw, if anyone wants to use this headcanon to actually write a fic, feel free to do so. Just please tell me because I’d love to read it.

#daenerys resurrection week #daenerys targaryen #jonerys #headcanons #fanfic #drw day 1

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alicenttully · 4 years

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I agree with you about jeyne take. I know Sansa was classist and maintain distance with Jon due to bastardy nature and surprise Sansa had to become alayne in affc. Sansa also once think Arya to be ugly and hairy in agot. I don't want grrm to punish Sansa to teach her lesson like jeyne.

Yeah, to be quite frank I shouldn't even have to point out how unsettling that theory is. If you can find pleasure in the thought of a 13 year old girl who has already been sexually exploited and subjected to the most heinous abuse in the series at the hands of a monster being physically disfigured, then you are the kind of person I don't want to accossiate with. It tells me everything I need to know about you. Now I know someone will say that Jeyne isn't a actual person, so it's not as though they're wishing harm on a real girl, and they are right. Jeyne is fictional, but the things she represents isn't. She is a rape and abuse victim. Again this is where I know someone might interject and call me a hypocrite for then hating Dany when she's suffered similar experiences, but the difference between Daenerys and Jeyne is that Jeyne hadn't committed the awful things which the former has (profiting from slavery and killing Mirri, a slave who rose against her master - the same thing that dany later punishes others for!) The worst thing that you can say about Jeyne is that she gave Arya a mean nickname, played a part in her self esteem issues, and told Arya in gruesome detail what became of Mycah. (Which really George? Was that necessary?) Is it awful? Yes. Should she be held accountable for it? Yes. Which is related to my next point. I totally get if you're a stan of a character, you're not going to be fond of characters who were mean to your fave. I obviously don't except Arya stans to like Jeyne. But the problem with a lot of Arya's fandom's reaction to Jeyne is that some of them geniuely seem to think that what Jeyne suffered was retribution for Arya.

Onto your point about Sansa, the reality is all the Starklings are classist. Yes, EVEN Arya. Yes, she cares for the smallfolk but she has still been raised in a classist society. She does not question the fact that her father is a lord simply because of who her grandfather was. However, moving on, Sansa is still the one who gets called out for it. It's aggravating because on one hand I don't give a fuck if people want to discuss Sansa's classism. It's a part of her character, but don't pretend as if she is an analomy. Or turn a blind eye to the more cruel, destructive displays of classist behaviour by other characters. (ie tywin ordering the assualt of a crofter's daughter - it goes without saying that if tysha had somehow been a daughter of a powerful vassal house for example, tywin would have reacted very differently - but then again when I think of princess elia...) Because when you do that, it proves to me you don't actually give a shit about classism in Westeros - only when it comes to characters you don't like.

Regarding her prejuidices about illegitmitacy, again Sansa is a character in a feudal society. But despite whatever antis claim, the worst you can say about Jon and Sansa's relationship is that it was distant. However, they're both able to remember one another with affection. That's not something Tyrion and Cersei were able to. Could you argue that Jon felt hurt over the fact that Sansa kept her distance from him? Of course, but at the same time there is an obvious lack of vitriol (like between tyrion and cersei). Just as antis resent the fact that Arya will reconcile with sansa, they're in denial of how Jon actually views sansa - that he loves her, even if he isn't as close to her as he was with Robb and Arya, and to a lesser extent Bran.

Winterfell would go to Robb and then his sons, or to Bran or Rickon should Robb die childless. And after them came Sansa and Arya. Even to dream otherwise seemed disloyal, as if he were betraying them in his heart, wishing for their deaths. I never wanted this, he thought as he stood before the blue-eyed king and the red woman. I loved Robb, loved all of them . . . I never wanted any harm to come to any of them, but it did.

It's also worth pointing out that Sansa's behaviour likely had a lot to do with her feelings of loyalty towards her mother. Sansa was close to Cat, and just as Sansa was perceptive of the fact that Jon has jealousy issues being a bastard- I think Sansa would have understood her mother's difficulties & feelings of betrayal in having Jon in her home.

Anyway finally getting to what you said - George punishing Sansa in that way won't happen. The biggest indication for me is the lack of such in the show. George sat down with the showrunners for three days to discuss the futures of the major characters. He didn't say that his characters had different endings in the books - he said they had different endings to each other. Like considering D&D's dislike for Sansa and the way they propped up other characters (ie Tyrion) at her expense, I find it very hard to believe they would choose not to adapt something like that.

#sansa stark #jeyne poole #asoiaf #a song of ice and fire #anti arya stans #game of thrones #got #asks #sorry for the long winded reply

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asoiaf-source · 4 years

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Fighting Hate with more Hate. That always works, right?

“Sansa’s fans are so defensive of her because of the rest of the fandom demonize her and hate her for no reason.” - helenakey

So then the answer is to demonize the other women characters for no reason?

Of course there are going to be ‘fans’ that hate on a character for no reason, I’ve seen people post unnecessary and unreasonable hate on many of the characters, not just Sansa, and they can be as annoying, but they are not representative of the entire fandom. Not ALL fans are hating on her, and some are just looking at the character critically. I’m new to the tumblr metas (avoided for a long time due to the toxic reputation), but i’ve been on ASOIAF forums for a long time and there are plenty of Sansa supporters, even if she is still quite a polarizing character due to how people wish to interpret her... but Sansa stans on tumblr take it to the next level!

I’ve never seen this side of her fans before, or at least so much nearly every day, and subsequently the many rebuttals! And how often they like throwing other characters under the bus, often for hypocritical reasons. Like the OP yendany said, they ignore the trauma in other characters or dismiss it as not as bad, when it is often much, much worse. They criticize and attack other female characters to prop up Sansa ‘better’ survival skills, or attribute qualities to her she doesn’t possess (I see this a lot in fanfiction, before I realized the self-insert aspect), or use her age as excuse when all the main characters are young or even younger than her. The line porcelain to ivory to steel... can really apply to any character that has to grow up and face the harsh realities of the world... so it is really hypocritical to think Sansa is special in some way for overcoming her situation, all the characters are going through the same struggle, and many have it much worse. That is where I think so much of the anti-sansa stans come from, the hypocrisy and the tearing down of other just as deserving of sympathy/empathy characters, especially other women characters. It is a weird juxtaposition, that anyone with a reasonable sense of objectivity can pick up on and often do.

I mostly see it done against Arya and Dany, the two more prominent female characters in the books (thus the 2 who draw more focus than #3 Sansa?). The two female characters GRRM is telling a lot of his story through and spending a large amount of the text (right from book 1) to develop their growth as characters and showcase their strengths, intelligence, determination, fortitude, agency, cleverness, resilience and so much more. It’s as if because the other women are not ‘pure’ or see themselves that way and stronger in personality and character that somehow their suffering doesn’t affect them as much because they are tougher and didn’t let anything that happened to them stop them from growing stronger. They aren’t dwelling in victim-hood too long before they pick themselves back up and move forward.

And yet, they cheer when Sansa starts to grow stronger... Sansa’s growth has been much slower, we are moving into book 6 and she is just starting to gain a bit of agency, but she is still heavily under the tutelage of Baelish. We will see how far she gains in the next book and if she will break with Baelish by the end of it and be a fully independent player. But her development isn’t nearly on the same scale as Daenerys and Arya. That isn’t to imply that she isn’t going to be important, but it is clear from the text that she is not one of the main focuses for GRRM, or he would have developed her faster and given her more to do. We will see how much ground he can cover in 1-2 books, but there is only so much he will be able to accomplish and have it be believable, especially with so many POVs and story lines that he needs to develop.

I actually think their attempts to (over) defend her backfire, as so many feel the need to point out the falsehoods and misinterpretations, especially when they are wildly mean-spirited and completely refutable by the text. As I traverse through the ASOIAF metas I often come across fans metas writing rebuttals to other posts, to ‘correct’ their conclusion or ‘facts’. I’ve read so many of these they are starting to get repetitive, I also read some of the Sansa-stan posts they are rebutting and, yeah I can see why so many get upset. If you don’t like it when others tears down or dismisses Sansa, why do you think fans of the other characters wouldn’t comment when you go after their favs, especially so mean-spiritedly.

I don’t think I ever felt so much negativity towards the Sansa character until I had to read so many skewed and biased metas turning her into some kind of saintly YA Disney princess type that is just too good for this cruel world. That kind of character has no place in a series like this. You can’t help but want to point out the wild inaccuracies, and it makes me feel a negativity towards a character I didn’t feel negative to before. And I don’t want to feel negative towards her, she is a Stark and I root for the Starks, especially the kids. I often defended her against those who (I feel) just don’t understand what it is like to be a preteen girl, I relate to a lot of Sansa’s weaknesses and how she feels, especially at that age, and that is her appeal (to me) - the fact that she starts off very weak.

Sansa is weak both physically and mentally, she cares too much about rank, privilege, and what others think about her, her desire to conform, for everything to be proper, and properly in their place. She has the luxury to think that way because she is a rich, pretty, noble girl who ranks at the top of society, of course she sees life as great and never questions it... she is already at the top and winning from birth. This is why (I think) she is so hard on Arya, she messes with her idea of what is proper/good/right. Arya isn’t pretty and doesn’t try to be, she acts more boy than girl, she plays with dirty, smelly, poor children, etc... Those are all an embarrassment to Sansa and go against what a proper lady of her rank should do and care about. Once they head south, all the things Arya gets away with at home will stand out even more and reflect badly on Sansa, by association. So, she criticizes and distances herself even more, because she wants to join the elite glamorous world of the nobility.

The other girls don’t have those weaknesses, that is why they are seen as better able to cope than Sansa does. They grow quicker and stronger faster because they are not as inhibited by what the ‘rules’ are. This isn’t a criticism of Sansa, this is an observation and I think it is the entire point of including a character like her in the story. GRRM could have followed the original outline for her, but he wanted to ‘reform/rescue’ her character and give her (I hope) a better path back to her family and happiness. I think it is GRRMs way to show how young girls should NOT romanticize noble life or being pretty will lead to a ‘perfect’ life. That thinking of yourself as a lady or being a princess/queen isn’t what is important. That marring a ‘title’ (lord/prince) or a handsome face is not enough to lead to happiness. It is what you do with your life, and how you care about others and who cares about you - that is what is important. But some Sansa fans seem to miss that and want her to have all those thing and more... they want it both ways, her to learn all those things, and yet still get all those things... a beautiful princess life clear of the harsh actions to gain it and also a happy family married to the best, more heroic and honorable man - a fairy tale ending. And that is not ASOIAF.

They are reducing her entire arc to becoming a nicer, more pure, and pretty, prize for a man to love, marry and make their queen. If so, GRRM will botch the ending of his series and all the points he *seems* to be making thus far.

A major theme (to me) in Sansa arc is her lack of value in her home and family. Sansa (to me) is like the small town girl who can’t wait to leave her family / Winterfell behind and to move to the big glamorous city (King’s Landing) and become royalty. But once she got there wasn’t able to accumulate with its more complicated and corrupt realities of the court. Even setting the cruelty of Joffrey aside (he is an aberration, not a normal example), how everyone else ostracizes or ignores her (except the hound, and to some extent Tyrion - although he isn’t all that great). The way the Tyrells treat her before and after her wedding is much more representative of how typical court life and nobility behaves normally (I think). Sansa never saw the true value of being surrounded by people who love and care about YOU and whom you can trust and rely upon - until that is all taken from her. She slowly sees how the people at court are corrupt and deceitful under all the beauty and glamor she so aspired to only after being fooled more than once, and (to me) no longer wants any part of it, but is forced to play, thanks to Baelish.

This is a point I find many of her fan miss, they think Sansa is going to learn to play the game, destroy everyone with her cunning and beauty and rise to the top to be queen or a ruler - a path which will ultimately lead to down a very dark and cynical path... but somehow they think Sansa will be different, and her rise will be more like a Disney princess story, one where she will gain power without having to sink low to do it. That is NOT the kind of book GRRM is writing.

”I’ll make them love me.” - another childish statement, you can’t make people love you, you earn love and respect. And Sansa hasn’t done that once the entire series, she hasn’t made a single friend. No one is looking to follow or fight for/beside Sansa, save Baelish, and we all know that plan is doomed to fail, as he isn’t to be trusted or relied upon and wants to use her. I would even question her friendship with Jeyne Poole as it is clear she never saw them as equals, and that is not real friendship... more like Jeyne was a companion/lady-in-waiting type.

The few people who care about her (other than family) either are working on behalf of an oath to Catelyn, or have their own ambitions/sexual desires/pity for her and not necessarily care about her for herself because she was a good and loyal friend to them. Maybe this will change in the next book, but with Baelish keeping close tabs and guiding her, who knows how well she will be able to make any genuine relationships with others given all the secrets she has to keep.

Her only realistic path to leadership is through marriage and that is hardly giving her agency as a heroic rise to a leader of a men... more like sleeping her way to the top. Not something I want for Sansa, and I hope her ‘marriage’ to Tyrion works as plot armor against her being used like that.

Besides GRRM has kinda stressed that ‘real’ leadership comes from understanding people, observation, and experience, and not just from strategics marriage (Margaery, Cersei) or inheritance (Joffrey, Tommen, Cersei - she could prove the point all on her own :). Every leader in the book so far has to make compromises, make hard decisions and even make harsh, sometimes very bad decisions and live with those consequences. None of the characters in the series have escaped this as much as Sansa has, since so much of her story thus far is about her lack of agency, and being a pawn used by others (and to some extent she still is with Baelish). For her to make it to the end w/o doing anything and staying ‘pure’ and that is how she ends up on top, by essentially not taking many large personal risks, allowing others to do all the heavy lifting morally, mentally and physically. If winning means standing on the sidelines watching everyone else do the WORK, and just giving suggestive nudges here and there to have things turn out in your favor so you can just coast to the top (that is the Baelish way)... well, that is kinda the worst message GRRM could leave us with.

If GRRM wants Sansa to become a leader, she will have to get her hands dirty too, she will have to take great personal risks to gain power and accept the consequences good or bad that result, learn from them and move forward... otherwise it defeats one of the main points of his series and turns her into a simplistic cliche version of a character. Every character with a POV has gone through this, it is one of the major themes in ASOIAF, a more realistic, less easy way of looking at how you obtain power and learn by experience and a series of victories and defeats. Thus far Sansa has also avoided examining her actions and how they have affected her, she either never thinks about them, changes the facts to suit her better, or blames others without seeing the part she also played... I’m not blaming her, but her action did contribute to the situation... she never seems to realize this and I feel it is going to eventually hit her hard, she has to mature and grow out of her ‘unreliable narrator’ eventually, and it must lead to something for GRRM to make it such a large part of her narrative of coping with her trauma. I assume he wrote her this way for a reason and is going to do something with it.

I’m looking forward to a darker more realistic Sansa who has more agency and understanding, and I expect her to make her own mistakes and moral compromises (well she already has, but there was some coercion - but it also means she is capable of doing so) just like all the other POVs have had to do. I also look forward to her finally owning up to her past actions and how they also contributed to where she is now. If she can’t take some personal responsibility she will never grow. That is a part of having agency, understanding how your decisions and actions affect you and others.

I wish all the back and forth would stop, cause I’m tired of seeing it in my feeds, but I guess it has been going on for years - the same arguments/rebuttals - so I guess it will continue, even after we get the next book... I think only the completion of the entire series will end some of these arguments, but who knows - after some of the meta I’ve read, there will probably be even more, lol.

Well, I wanted to comment and give my two cents, but it ended up being longer and I guess for me all this is still new and offsetting. I guess I had more to say that I thought, even though I edited A LOT out because I wanted to keep it focused. I’ve just started to dip my toes into this crazy platform, so I’m sure this is just the tip of the toxic metas that I heard can be found here... can’t wait to read the anti-dany metas... that is sure to fill me with a sad rage as well, i know the show did her no favors, sigh....

#topic anti-sansa-stans #topic toxic fandom #topic sansa stark stans

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sheikah · 5 years

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What kills me so much about season 8 Jon is that his every action ruined my favorite thing about Jon--his soft, romantic side. I know we only have Ygritte to go off of before Dany, but that relationship was still very revealing when it comes to his personality.

Ygritte was Jon’s sworn enemy, and he was under orders to kill her. Orders! But he didn’t. He saw her, that she was a woman (a pretty woman at that), and he couldn’t go through with it. But I’m supposed to believe that at Tyrion’s suggestion he committed regicide and murdered his defenseless lover?

Ygritte and Jon’s relationship was forbidden--for multiple reasons. Being with any woman was prohibited by his vows, but being with Ygritte in particular was even more transgressive because she was a wildling--someone Northerners, and especially men of the Watch, were taught to hate. Despite this, Jon slept with her and fell in love with her. Jon Snow, who had only ever been with Ygritte, went down on her with no prompting! He was a selfless and enthusiastic lover and a sexually progressive dude! But I’m supposed to believe that finding out Dany was a blood relative was too scandalous for Jon? Dany who, like him, is a Targaryen? You know, the family that normalized and created legal loopholes for incest in Westeros? It was too disgusting to kiss Dany? That’s where he drew the line? (Not even to mention that avunculate marriage was actually acceptable outside of Targaryen unions, with even the supposedly morally superior Starks participating in it. Twice.)

Ygritte participated in wildling raids wherein the wildlings killed Northern villagers brutally and indiscriminately. She participated in terrifying violence that would fit a modern definition of mass murder. Jon knew about this and developed a relationship with Ollie--a young boy whose life was torn apart by Ygritte and her fellow raiders, giving Jon a close, secondhand perspective on the extent of her violence. And yet, during the battle at The Wall, Jon couldn’t harm her. Seeing her across the battlefield--his enemy--he could only smile fondly. He could only smile at a woman who shot him three times. But I’m supposed to believe that he would stab Dany in the heart for killing smallfolk in King’s Landing?

I know it’s hard for a lot of people to understand why I don’t post about Jon anymore and why I don’t really actively ship Jonerys. But it’s because season 8 ruined the reason why I loved Jon and why I shipped Jonerys. A lot of people say--myself included--that Jon put duty before love in the past, in keeping with the whole, “Love is the death of duty,” mantra. But if I really think about it, that’s not entirely true. If Jon really put duty before love, he would have killed Ygritte while she shot him full of arrows. If he really put duty before love, he wouldn’t have hesitated when he saw her at Castle Black--Ygritte, the woman who slaughtered Ollie’s family. But he did. Because Jon Snow was a soft boy who couldn’t hurt the woman he loved. He was a soft boy who didn’t just pretend to love Ygritte to ingratiate himself to the wildlings. He was romantic with her. He flirted with her. He loved her. And I loved him for being an impulsive, conflicted, romantic guy.

And season 8 took all of that away from me. I spent years arguing against the idea of political!Jon when the truth turned out to be much worse. Jon was passive and almost apathetic in his “love” for Dany. I can’t even say anymore that I believe he ever loved her at all. He ignored and avoided her after learning about his parentage. He never comforted her after she lost Jorah or Missandei. His loyalty lasted as long as the lives of the smallfolk. He betrayed her trust by revealing his parentage to Sansa and Arya. And finally, he killed Dany when she was vulnerable. Where was the romance? Where was the selflessness he had demonstrated so many times before? Where was the enthusiasm and dedication to this relationship? When it came down to it, he wasn’t the person I thought he was. That’s what kills me. Because before I started fiercely defending Dany against all the hateful J0nsa antis on tumblr, Jon Snow was my main focus in this fandom. For years. Jon Snow was my favorite character. It was a defining facet of my personality to people who know me IRL that I was obsessed with Jon Snow. Most of my merch was Jon Snow merch. My tote bag for work was printed with Jon Snow fanart. A student got me a Jon Snow funko at the end of the semester one year because of how much I fangirled over him in our fantasy lit class. When I started shipping Jonerys, it wasn’t because I thought Jon was someone who would just make Dany happy. I have always loved Dany, but Jon was my favorite back then. I wanted my sweet, soft Jon to have a queen he deserved. That’s how powerfully bad season 8 was. It made me turn on my favorite character, not just from GoT, but from anything. And I can never forgive the writers for that. And I can’t just go back to business-as-usual in the fandom because I’m too bitter and sad.

#anti got #long post #personal

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throne-of-games · 5 years

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Thoughts on 8x01

Once again this episode starts off with Dany shooting Jon glances, yet not having them returned. Tragic

The Northerners reactions to Dany riding up were gold. She looked so put off at not having people immediately bowing to her and I’m living for it

Missandei’s reaction as well was interesting. Wow they hate us

Dany’s self righteous smirk at people cowering from the dragons. Lovely, what a benevolent queen!

Jon hopping off his horse quick af without even thinking to offer Dany a hand because he’s so happy to be home and see his family. Lmao Aegon, who?

Sansa not having it with the empty flattery is my sexuality

Yeah, the Night King’s got a dragon now, good goin’ guys!

Dany standing off to the side looking super out of place during the meeting while Sansa and Jon sit side by side

Little Lord Umber’s introduction made me laugh

Sansa literally running this council meeting. Of course. She’s the only sensible one left in this gd series.

I’m not sure what you are. MORE PLS

I chose the North. Foreshadowing, perhaps?

Tyrion, sit your ass down. You’re not wanted in the North anymore than your queen is. Also the fact that he truly believes Cersei’s army is coming? I can’t believe the show has dumbed his character down to this extent. Smh.

Dany’s face while Sansa’s bringing up extremely valid points. Sorry lady, while you’re out joyriding on your dragons, someone has to be an adult and think about the people.

Loving that the “apology” to Tyrion was more of a flippant oh, yeah sorry about that than something more heartfelt like the leaks were making it out to be.

I CACKLED when I saw that Bran was still out in the courtyard. Like someone wheel his ass inside, it’s cold out here! Poor kid

I don’t think Jon meant that “Sansa thinks she’s smarter than everyone” line as a jab against her. To me it came off as an offhand joke and as other’s have already pointed out, I think it was more of a reflection of what Jon believes Sansa thinks of him than anything else.

Also the fact that he even had to ask Arya if she ever had to use Needle shows how he doesn’t realize that they’ve all changed so much and even after the last two seasons I think this is a major reason why he seems to forget how capable and smart Sansa really is. Jamie and Sansa aren’t the only slow learners, it seems

But with that being said, STARK SISTERS STICKING UP FOR EACH OTHER 2K19!!

I’m her family too. Poor insecure bb Jon. I think this line gives insight to a lot of his insecurities and why he and Sansa butt heads often.

Don’t forget that. Serving those ‘Jon is a Stark and will always we a Stark’ vibes hard af!!

Cersei’s response to hearing the wall fell...honestly? Mood.

You want a whore, buy one. You want a queen...earn her. CERSEI!!

Tbh I almost feel bad for Cersei, it’s really her against the world at this point and her scenes in King’s Landing feel so lonely

Theon saving Yara!! Theon going North!!

I love that it’s Dany and Jon’s advisors talking marriage but not them. What a beautiful love story!

NOTHING LASTS while literally looking at Jon and Dany. Can’t get more obvious than that lmao

WAS THAT A THREAT I HEARD?! DANY, BITCH, I WILL RIP YOUR STALE STRAW MAN LOOKIN WEAVE OFF

I get why people are pissed at Jon in that scene but it’s not like he can really throw down right then and there, he truly believes the dragons are the only way to win but y’ know I guess you could just chalk it up to bad writing

Dragons don’t like the North, hm? Well they don’t like you either, so there’s that. But seriously I’m kinda liking that bit. Dragons don’t do well in the North, they don’t belong there...Dany’s a dragon...do you see where I’m going with this?

The dragon riding scene wasn’t as bad as I thought it’d be. It’s definitely setting up the fact that Rhaegal is bonded to Jon now and it’s all happening before the parentage reveal gets out. Interesting.

I’ve already posted about this but DANY IS THE ONE THAT SAID THAT SHITTY 1000 YEARS LINE, NOT JON!! Lmao

Dany initiating the kiss, while sneaking in a reminder of her status over him. Classy

All I could think about during the kiss was how awkward it must have been for Kit and Emilia. Poor bb’s

Jon eyeing Drogon during the kiss!! I’M LIVING. It came off so gd menacing like Drogon doesn’t trust him or there’s definitely some animosity there

Arya and Gendry banter, cute!!

Jon and Sansa arguing? HERE FOR IT. I really liked the way Jon said “I brought home two armies and two dragons.” To me, it came off very much like he was saying I’ve done all of this, what more can I do to earn your approval. He needs to be validated by her so bad and it’s so precious. Also “she’s not her father.” Ten minutes later finds out she burnt a son and father together just like her father. That’s some goooood foreshadowing right there, mhm!

I wanted to cry for Sam. I felt so bad for him. And Dany was so cold throughout the whole thing, like she couldn’t spare an ounce of sympathy but let’s be honest, no surprise there. Also, all the antis who said sam’s not gonna care!! can suck my big toe

Anyone else get the feeling that Jorah might be torn here? He owe’s Sam, feels grateful towards him but now that Dany and Sam are at odds, Jorah’s gonna be caught in the middle of this. Super interested to see how that plays out

BRAN IS STILL IN THIS FUCKING COURTYARD?!

Jon being shocked at what Dany did because of course she didn’t tell him, they’ve had a total of like maybe seven conversations throughout the course of the entire show

That whole crypt scene was just odd to me. I felt like Jon was trying to rationalize to himself rather than to Sam why Dany wasn’t that bad and why he didn’t make a huge mistake in bringing her to the North because he honestly, truly believes the dragons are their last chance at survival. Doesn’t seem like someone trying to convince himself that his gf is a good person it seems like someone trying to convince himself that he didn’t acquire another threat in his quest to defeat the original threat. Poor guy just can’t catch a break.

Anyone else think that “Daenerys is our queen, that’s treason,” line sounded a little halfhearted or was it just me?

“You gave up your crown to save your people, would she do the same?” NO SHE WOULDN’T, WE LITERALLY SAW THIS HAPPEN IN SEASON 7!! THIS EXACT FUCKING SCENARIO!!

Love how Jon doesn’t answer that with a resounding of course she would because he fucking knows she wouldn’t since he y’know LIVED IT

JAMIE HAS ARRIVED!!

The Night King is extra af making wall murals out of body parts, can’t you just send a raven or something? Sweet baby jesus

Did anyone else feel like this episode was just kind of blah? Like it feels like they’re just trying to get the show over at this point, the parentage reveal was way lackluster and everything was just kinda eh. Maybe it’s because of the leaks, I don’t know but I sure hope the rest of the season will turn out better.

#sfw #jonsa #jon x sansa #anti daenerys #anti jonerys #game of thrones #jon snow #sansa stark #long post #season 8 spoilers

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moonlitgleek · 5 years

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"[Arya and Sansa] actually have a bit in common in terms of the skills they are picking up from their individual journeys" Can you please expand on that? I'd love to read more about their parallels!

I’ll speak to the parallels that I was thinking of when I wrote that, but I’m afraid this is not going to be comprehensive because it’s been a while since I read the books. I might come back to it later when I have the chance to do a reread.

Adapting to their surroundings and managing their image

Both Arya and Sansa have a penchant for adapting which develops from an intuitive reaction to a conscious effort that plays on managing people’s perception of them. Sansa approaches it through the medium of a lady’s education; she instinctively employs her socially-approved image as a proper lady and her courtesies to try and sway the court in her favor when she delivers her plea for Ned’s life, then consciously and carefully modifies her mannerisms and her wardrobe to reflect the persona she wants to convince others of as she shifts from playing Joffrey’s dedicated royal betrothed to Littlefinger’s daughter-slash-mentee to the bastard girl the Vale lords think her to be. She takes care of how to present herself to various factions and leans into people’s perception of her as unthreatening and naive to achieve her goals. Who would think that little Sansa was planning her escape in the godswood? Who would pay much attention to the unassuming bastard girl?

Arya also leans into people’s mistaken perceptions of her. She is repeatedly mistaken for a boy which she eventually uses to conceal her true identity and evade capture. We see her high awareness of how to behave while with Yoren to pass as a boy and is conscious of how her dirty appearance at Harrenhal sells her false identity as a peasant and tries to behave accordingly. She learns to be conscious of her mannerisms in the House of Black and White to adapt to the identities she slips between. In fact, one of the main things Arya is taught during her time in Braavos is how to adapt to her surroundings and adjust everything else down to her body language and facial expressions to take on a new persona and she is very adept at it. She has also repeatedly uses the fact that people underestimate her because of her size or her gender to get close enough to do what she wants, whether that’s to get information or to launch an attack as she did with the weasel soup.

That’s three skills the girls are getting better at: learning to adapt, learning how to use self-presentation to support an endeavor or alter perception, and learning how to deliberately play on others’ expectations to accomplish your goal. All of which are extremely handy in political situations.

Experiencing the life of the disadvantaged

The experiences that Sansa and Arya go through in their individual journeys are sure to inform the political philosophy of both girls. As we’ve seen with the example of Aegon V and his pro-smallfolk reforms, a life among the lower social classes can have a significant effect on policy. Aegon V lived with the commoners over the course of his squiring for Ser Duncan the Tall which made him more attuned to the needs and struggles of a social class that often goes ignored by the high lords. Daenerys’ powerlessness and harsh life similarly informs her anti-slavery campaign in Slaver’s Bay.

In the same vein, Sansa and Arya’s arcs in the aftermath of Ned’s death leads them to live the life of the disadvantaged in a way that could only elevate their natural compassion. The girls are innately kind, and Arya in particular has always been sensitive to injustices inflicted on the weak, but it remains that the girls start the series with a great deal of privilege as the daughters of a great lord who, despite his own compassionate nature, doesn’t really know what it is to live a disenfranchised or unprivileged life. That Sansa experiences the prejudiced attitude leveled at bastards and Arya shares in the hardships the smallfolk go through could only bolster their innate kindness in having them able to empathize with the plight of those who suffer from the class hierarchy that tramples the weak in the game of thrones. The degree of separation that the girls had before gets degraded to an extent. They struggle through those hardships and prejudices, through the cruelty and apathy of the noble class towards a population they don’t see as valuable enough. That can only make Sansa and Arya mindful of how their decisions reflect on those below them in the social ladder when they are the ones in charge and enable them to be a source of change to the social attitude towards lower classes.

A similar effect would result from how the girls went through experiences that showed themthe horrors of war. Arya travels through the Riverlands and sees how war, even just and righteous ones, ravishes the people and exacts a toll on the commoners first and foremost. She sees the destruction and the misery Robb’s troops inflict on innocents in a similar way to the Lannisters’. Sansa lives the reality of being a political hostage and what it really means to have your life hanging on the balance. While the Lannisters push and break the boundaries of acceptable practices as always, holding hostages against the good behavior of their family on the threat of death remains an acceptable political tool that everyone freely partakes in. It is also a fundamentally unjust practice that inflicts harm on people for the actions of their kin. The Starklings have all grown up with Theon suffering from that perilous position but none of them really understood it. That builds an awareness of the consequences of these accepted political practice and puts the human side of the game of thrones firmly on their minds.

Leadership skills

The arcs of the Starks girls, different as they get, keep circling back to how they personify an ideology that implanted the Starks into the very history of the North. Despite not being in power the way characters like Jon or Dany are in their own leadership roles, the girls find themselves in spaces that allows them to understand power, whether as a duty or a privilege, and build their own leadership model. The thing to note is that the Stark girls understand that leadership is a duty of protection and care. So it’s not just that Sansa saves Dontos Hollard or talks Joffrey into giving that poor Kingslander with the dead baby money instead of running her down, it’s not just that Arya fiercely pursues justice for those victimized by the Lannisters from Mycah to Ned to Lanna to Lomy; it’s that the girls understand that that leadership is a responsibility. Sansa correctly identifies that ruling through love through easing the suffering of people is the correct principle and considers it a main part of royal role.Arya steps in for her family taking on the role of the Stark in Winterfell when she metes out justice to Daeron in the name of the Starks. Both girls reflect their father’s ideology and teachings, with Arya directly invoking Ned’s leadership lessons to Robb and Jon.

As the story progresses, the girls get more instances where they step up to take charge in time of need. Arya emerges as a natural leader during the attack on Yoren’s group and tries her best to steer her little newfound pack away from danger. She plots with Jaqen to free the Northmen and refuses to leave Gendy and Hot Pie behind when she flees Harrenhal. She takes Weasel under her wing and is very protective of her. Being caring and protective has always been in Arya’s nature but we see her growing awareness of the unfairness of the world and her determination to push back. This is the girl who stepped in between Joffrey and Mycah and was literally the only person who cares about justice for Mycah after all. Justice is a major concern for Arya, but she also clearly understands that justice has to be tempered with mercy as shown in her reaction to the Karstark men dying in crow cages.

Where Arya leans more towards the protector role, Sansa leans towards the providing aspect of leadership. She is associated with the wish to provide foodstuff to the starving population of King’s Landing, with successfully getting Joffrey to give money, with giving comfort to the terrified women during the Blackwater, with helping Lancel and calling for medical attention. Her more traditional feminine skills like sewing and running the household has always been cited as majorly important skills to surviving in winter. Sansa’s story associates her with relief efforts which she is positioned to do as winter kicks in with a vengeance considering that Littlefinger is currently hoarding food up in the Vale. I’m quite invested in the theory that she’ll be the one to hold Winterfell during the thick of the War for the Dawn as the castle becomes a refuge for those fleeing winter and the Others. I think both girls will embody the historical roles of the Starks in that war, with Arya protecting the North with her wolf pack and Sansa comforting and taking care of the civilians inside the castle.

Political analysis and deduction skills

The girls are each developing a mind for political analysis that is being bolstered by the crash course they are receiving in the Vale and the House of Black and White respectively, under mentors who actively encourage them to hone their observation skills and connect the dots to a larger picture.

Sansa’s skill shows when she starts looking closer at her maids in the aftermath of Ned’s death and concludes that they are spying on her for Cersei. Her affinity for political analysis shows itself when she thinks over what Margaery’s betrothal to Joffrey and Loras’ appointment to the Kingsguard mean in light of Joff’s temperament, unknowingly putting her finger on the design of the Purple Wedding. In the aftermath of the wedding, she connects the missing amethyst in her hairnet and Dontos’ insistence that she wears it to the wedding to Joffrey’s murder, a fact Littlefinger confirms later. She also figures out that Petyr framed Tyrion from the information that he was the one who arranged for the jousting dwarves. In the Vale, Sansa understands the significance of Petyr’s act in granting Nestor Royce the Gates of the Moon as a political play, and pays close attention to the Lords Declarant upon their arrival in the Eyrie, noting the purpose behind the seating arrangements and deducing that Lyn Corbray is working with Littlefinger. Her training montage with Littlefinger includes lessons her about inheritance, the intricacies of social interactions and the interpersonal dynamics of Vale nobility which is immensely valuable in a political setting. Sansa is also basically running the Eyrie right now and her idea about the tourney of the Winged Knights and organizational skills shows budding political skill.

Meanwhile, Arya is developing a knack for gathering information from multiple sources and how to separate hard facts from her own deductions. She has always been good at listening and her underfoot tendencies gave her access to a lot of important information ahead of time, even if she does not always realize their importance in the moment. From the plotting of Varys and Illyrio to the design of the Red Wedding, Arya gets bits and pieces about some rather significant events. Syrio Forel hones her skills by teaching her to be fast and silent, to look closely and observe carefully which Arya consciously employs across her arc, most notably when she sees the guards in grey cloaks waiting by the Wind Witch and figures out that they are not her father’s men. The kindly man only bolsters Arya’s perceptiveness by forcing her to rely on her other senses and furthers her awareness of body language and facial expressions, both her own and other people’s, which helps her see through people’s lies and also sell her own lies capably. The kindly man also encourages Arya further to observe and listen once in Braavos by asking her to learn three new things every day, and the things Arya bring ranges from mundane (jabes, riddles) to important politically (sailor’s tales about the war in Slaver’s Bay and Dany’s dragons) and economically (”tricks of this trade or the other”).

On top of that, Arya’s time in Braavos exposes her to adifferent culture, ruling model and political atmosphere, which she we see her use to build a growing understanding of the politics of Bravoos and how it compares to that of Westeros. Her political ability shines through when she uses the data she gathered to deduce that the death of the current ill Sealord will bring a conflict and assassinations till a new one, who she identifies as Tormo Fregar, comes out on top. Arya’s knack of making friends with any and everyone, whether highborn and lowborn, Westeros native or not, means she is quite capable of building a huge network of relationships and diverse sources of information.

Parallels also exist in the way Sansa and Arya are both learning to recognize cues that they are being played or lied to. To slip between personas as befits their circumstances but without losing the core of their identity. They are gaining a lot of knowledge about political intrigue and learning the tools of diplomatic relations. The methods and the aspects of their training montages may differ, but I don’t think the skills they are each acquiring are all that divergent. In fact, I think the girls’ skills are rather complementary, and they are each meant to enhance and round off the other’s skillset.

#asoiaf #asoiaf meta #valyrianscrolls #sansa stark #arya stark #parallels #Anon asks #ask box

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khaleesirin · 5 years

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Hi, khaleesirin! I’ve read your “Daenerys Targaryen is the Great Other” analysis, I thought it was particularly amazing (because the standard is high as it is), it gave me a new lens to look at and analyze Daenerys’ story and it propelled me to reflect further about her arc and themes in relation to the other characters’. I’d like to know your opinion about my musings.

So, I think it’s obvious that the show - at least in its final episodes - had double standards when it came to Daenerys in order to paint her in a bad light. However, I wonder if that won’t also be the case in the books, to a lesser extent.

One of the major themes permeating FeastDance as a whole is false peace, which you can see with the Lannisters and the Tyrells squabbling over Tommen; the several factions in the Night’s Watch; the Freys in the Riverlands; the Boltons and the former Stark vassals (especially the Manderlys); Dorne’s supposed allegiance to the Iron Throne (and also Arianne’s years-long resentment); the situation in the Vale with Littlefinger as Lord Protector; Team Aegon out of public sight (for the most part); and, of course, Daenerys’ campaign in Slaver’s Bay. In all of these plots, people are trying to resolve their disagreements in vain: sometimes war is inevitable.

What makes me uncomfortable is that, as far as I’m aware, Daenerys is the only character whose choice of war (or, more precisely, Fire and Blood) is possibly being framed negatively. I say “possibly” because we don’t have TWOW in our hands to be sure, but you can see that’s a possibility considering how a significant part of the fandom has come to the conclusion that she just can’t be a peacetime queen, she has shown her “true colors”. This opinion never sat well with me because, as I said, lots of characters are heading towards this direction, and Daenerys herself only arrived at that place after having made many efforts to make amends, but they weren’t meant to last because some wars need to be fought on. It is a specific situation that will likely bring out her more violent impulses, yet it doesn’t define her character as a whole. I’ve read arguments about how the peace was worth it in Meereen and how Daenerys is now going backwards, but I simply disagree with them and, considering the pattern in the narrative and the anti-slavery ideas in Fevre Dream, I lean towards GRRM disagreeing as well (I’d really like to know if his main inspiration for Daenerys’ storyline was the American Civil War or the Iraq war, because knowing that would really clarify what he is trying to convey with her storyline). In any case, again, why is she the only character whose decision to fight the just (and inevitable) war is being framed as a step too far, a turn to the darkness?

a) In this case, I think it’s worth considering the Doylist viewpoint. ASOIAF was supposed to be a trilogy of books about Westeros first and foremost. Daenerys was supposed to live among the Dothraki, birth her dragons, get an army and get to Westeros in the beginning of the third book. As we know, GRRM is a “gardener”, so, as he had more ideas for the characters in Westeros, he had to create more stories for Daenerys as well, and one of them was her ruling in Meereen. This brings me back to your essay about her: being the fire of the song of ice and fire, why isn’t her anti-slavery war in Essos given as much importance as the War for the Dawn? Why should it be a mid-point for the character to realize that her endgame is Westeros? If Jon’s struggles against the Others represent the battle against the supernatural form of slavery and the ice part of the story, why shouldn’t Daenerys’ narrative be the battle against the human form of slavery and the fire part of the story? I’d argue both are just wars, though the WftD is an easier, more black-and-white, standard fantasy conflict, while the war in Slaver’s Bay has more nuance (one may argue that the characters revolving Daenerys are not fleshed out enough or dumbed down military speaking or one may point out the racist aspects of Daenerys’ story, but the socioeconomic situation is indeed complex) and is more controversial, which only reinforces the need to continue developing this story and, most importantly, Daenerys’ political career (which I’ll get to later).

These questions show that GRRM also has his architect side. Daenerys’ endgame is Westeros because he’s already said his story is about Westeros. Therefore, he needs to transition her to a mindset that’ll propel her to finally leave, but I don’t think he’s considered (or cared enough about) certain negative implications that I laid out above (and it’s not exhaustive, other writers have talked a lot more about it).

b) We also need to consider how the show factors into those speculations and how we look at the story, because, like it or not, GRRM still told the ending to D&D, even if in a very simplified manner. Before season eight aired, I was fine with the idea that all of the six main characters were going through the darkest phases of their journeys, but that Daenerys’ in particular would cause more collateral damage as a natural consequence of the power she wields. After season eight, however, I started to reflect if GRRM may have double standards against Daenerys as well. In any case, the show has made it very likely that her fire and blood phase will culminate with her burning of King’s Landing. On the one hand, this could be dramatically interesting, but on the other hand, it could amplify those very double standards against her. I’ll explain:

b1) As of ADWD, Daenerys hasn’t yet been exposed to the atrocities her father has committed (in part because she refuses to do so). What better (if deeply tragic) way to do so than have her directly confronting the legacy he’s left behind - namely, the wildfire caches all over the city? It would shatter her sense of purpose in life and lead her to question herself and her sanity. It would lead her to be critical of the Targaryen legacy and how she wants to engage with it and how she uses it to define herself. It would make her feel more lonely and isolated than ever, especially since one of her core wishes is to belong somewhere, to have a place to call home… And no one would embrace her if they think she did it on purpose. I can see this being dramatically really interesting.

b2) But I have my reservations about this: 1) If this happens, Daenerys will be in need for redemption and this doesn’t feel right to me (similar to how I feel about Arya). 1.1) She is not and has never been morally flawed as characters like Jaime or Theon or even Tyrion and Sandor. As of ADWD, she’s only committed two morally ambiguous acts (ie crucifying the 163 masters and torturing the wineseller’s daughters). She’s always had her heart in the right place and, if this tragedy happened, it wouldn’t necessarily turn her darker, she’d be a victim of circumstance (and I say so because I don’t see how her actions are any different than the other leaders fighting in the Wot5K, again the double standards…). I dislike how this would frame her outcome in such a moralistic way, especially considering how her character and arc have been paralleled with Jon’s and I’ve yet to see any theories of his character taking a dark turn. 1.2) She’s one of the characters who better embody the books’ idea that you have to do the right thing even if you don’t get anything in return. And yet, not only her war in Essos will be given less narrative importance compared to the WftD (because it will be treated as a middle stage to her fire and blood phase), but when she arrives in the protagonist-centered Westeros, she will be committing war crimes (even if accidentally in the case of the burning of KL)? I’m not a fan of this scenario because it strengthens the idea that she can’t be a peacetime queen because her choice in her final ADWD chapter was fire and blood (which as I’ve said ignores all the time she spent trying to make peace). 2) Also, I’ve noticed a tendency of fandom also demonizing the Targaryen dynasty as a whole, the dragons and the Iron Throne (which to them serves the same thematic purpose as the Ring of LoTR) and I don’t buy their interpretation either because we’ve already seen previous kings who did right by Westeros sitting on the Iron Throne and using their dragons. Having Daenerys fail so spectacularly to restore her family’s dynasty and destroy its most important symbol (the Iron Throne) does not say much about the dynasty’s nature or even the corrupting nature of power as they’d like to believe, it mainly creates sexist implications (that I’ll discuss below). Of course, this depends on how it’s framed: if the dynasty’s end is meant to be a tragedy because of Aerys II’s actions, then I’d buy it; if the dynasty’s end is meant to be a better course of action for Westeros, then it does not work. I wonder why the Targaryens are so vilified when every other house is also working under the parameters of feudalism. Feudalism as a whole should be criticized. Why are the North or Dorne in any better conditions under the governments of House Stark and House Martell? And if GRRM wanted to make an statement about how it’s bad for one individual to accumulate so much power under a centralized government, he really failed, because the Targaryen dynasty is made of successes as much as failures. 3) I’d still expect Daenerys to choose a diplomatic course of action before ultimately deciding to use her dragons on Team Aegon. Heck, it’s still mind-blowing to me to know how the Yunkish masters have burned a lot more things in ADWD than Daenerys and then envision a scenario where she decides to go fire and blood and then accidentally burns everything. GRRM will have to be careful with how he executes this plot if this happens, precisely because it doesn’t gel that well with her previous characterization.

b3) If Daenerys burning KL comes to pass (and the show made it seem very likely that it will), then Daenerys is most likely another queen who failed, which is another tired plot point as well. Anyone who’s read F&B knows that Aerea and Rhaella Targaryen, Rhaena Targaryen, Rhaenys Targaryen, Rhaenyra Targaryen and Daena Targaryen were all considered as queens but were ultimately passed over for their male relatives. It’s a shame that GRRM had so many opportunities to let women rule and chose not to, so why can’t Daenerys be the ultimate change for the dynasty? Related to that point, why can’t she succeed in re-establishing her dynasty when Aegon the Conqueror could? You can’t escape the gender aspect of her potential failure, and having Sansa end as QITN doesn’t fix that, it only makes one question the double standard that plagues House Targaryen and not the others. Finally, in hindsight of the historical (and GRRM’s) pattern of setting female rulers aside and of everything that might happen to Daenerys in the books, having Aegon take the throne and get the love from the smallfolk Daenerys craves for only adds salt to the wounds.

b4) Of course, all I’m supposing that happened in the show and will also happen in the books is that Daenerys will burn King’s Landing. Will she be made a villain and implied mad as well after a lot of stupid foreshadowing in which male characters only told us what the writers wanted the viewers to see, rather than the writers actually showing signs of madness? Will she willingly burn a city full of innocents? Will she be robbed of her perspective by waving away all her actions as “Targaryen madness” (another way of the fandom demonizing the Targaryens, which the text doesn’t really support if you look closely)? Will GRRM not pay attention to how those actions could undermine the book series’ main themes (not that the fucking show has conveyed any themes in a consistent manner, but that’s a bigger issue)? Will he have it happen at a point that’ll leave Daenerys with no chance to redeem herself and end her story with her legacy forever tarnished in-universe, general awareness and pop culture? Will he make Jon Snow look good even after killing her (if that’s how she dies)? Will he make her work within a system that never gave her a chance and have her last appearance be drenched in Nazi symbolism? Because of the double standard that’s also present in the books affecting how Daenerys is perceived, I’m no longer a fan of the theory of her burning King’s Landing. But, if it happens (and it won’t happen without its share of issues), please, GRRM, let her voice be heard, pay attention to her previous characterization, reflect on how those actions will be tied to the book series’ themes and give her a chance to redeem herself and ultimately end on the side of the heroes (because that’s what she is, and that’s important to acknowledge because of her previous acts, the series’ themes and how she compares - or doesn’t - to the actual villains of the story).

Anyway, I agree with you that it was great to see Daenerys rule in Meereen and that it’d a shame if GRRM doesn’t recognize that in the future books. I’m not sure the original Daenerys as he envisioned was going to be as revolutionary as Daenerys is, but, considering the OTL as it is, if their trajectories have changed, then naturally their endgames must be different as well (fitting with GRRM’s gardener identity).

I’d argue that Daenerys’ ending should emphasize her as a political force. Therefore, if one must have her have her dark phase and then burn King’s Landing (and not allow her to continue the Targaryen dynasty, which I would have liked to see), then have Daenerys decide to turn back east with her three dragons to continue the good fight after concluding that Essos has never felt like home, but it was where she did put the effort to build trees, while Westeros was the dream and home of her ancestors, who do not need to wholly define her. It is the end of the Targaryen dynasty, but not with her death. Why I’d choose an ending like this: 1) The circular ending matches show!Jon’s, whose ending I thought would be fitting for book!Jon’s as well; 2) She ends her journey being more critical of external influences and more aware of her needs and actual experiences instead of simply taking on Viserys’ and her ancestors’ dreams to find an ultimately failed sense of belonging. She’s the one in charge of her journey from now on, which is an existential victory of sorts. The continent where she made and can still make a difference is Essos, and she’ll return aware of that, and with a more realistic and resilient sense of purpose; 3) It emphasizes her role as a queen and a revolutionary, not only as a savior (to people who have been in the abstract for her for most of her life); 4) It won’t be a totally happy ending. She’ll be left scarred from the events she witnessed in Westeros, from the burning of King’s Landing to the fight against the Others to the rejection she experiences from the lords and smallfolk alike. She’ll always feel like she needs to atone for her mistakes and she’ll be another Targaryen queen who failed. She still won’t have found a place and people to call her “home”. 5) That being said, she’s alive, in a position of power, more aware of herself and her place in the world and with the possibility of continuing to do good. And she’s also mentally stable and a hero, far from a villain.

So, what did you think? Do you think there are double standards against Daenerys in the books as well, especially in regards to how the inevitability of the wars is framed? What did you think of my observations about the (likely) upcoming burning of King’s Landing? Would you rather have her sit on the Iron Throne, go back to Essos or something else entirely? Please tell me what you think! I really enjoy your posts and they are the reason why I felt the need to gather my thoughts.

#daenerys targaryen #posting this submission so anyone who likes to give their comments can also do so #the person who sent it didn't want their name published #i'm particularly interested with question b3 #also because this is something irrationalityi brought up to my attention #with her usual erudite take on it #for the person who sent this i promise I'll get back to this

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