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genderkoolaid · 3 months

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Examples of transandrophobia: i've seen sections of Leslie Feinberg's piece "Sisterhood: Make it Real" passed around this site for literally years, and TODAY was the first time that I saw the whole thing and learned that ze called out cisfeminists in it for getting rid of trans men the second they started transitioning. Like I always thought it was a good piece but I had literally NO IDEA that it talked about trans men because that part was never included in posts about it, even when those posts were calling out cisfeminism for being transphobic. I'm just gobsmacked tbh

This is a great point!

Honestly more people need to read that full chapter. There's a lot of really good points.

Amongst other things, Leslie talks about how "women good men bad" is poor feminism:

Of course, as a result of the oppression women face growing up in such a violently anti-woman environment, some women draw a line between women as allies and men as enemies. While it’s understandable that an individual might do so out of fear, this approach fails as theory. It lumps John Brown and John D. Rockefeller together as enemies and Sojourner Truth and Margaret Thatcher together as allies. This view of who to trust and who to dread will not keep women safe or keep the movement on course.

How feminine men are victims of gender oppression:

The oppression of feminine men is an important one to me, since I consider drag queens to be my sisters. I’ve heard women criticize drag queens for “mocking women’s oppression” by imitating femininity to an extreme, just as I’ve been told that I am imitating men. Feminists are justifiably angry at women’s oppression - so am I! I believe, however, that those who denounce drag queens aim their criticism at the wrong people. This misunderstanding doesn’t take gender oppression into account. For instance, to criticize male-to-female drag performers, but leave out a discussion of gender oppression, lumps drag queen RuPaul together with men like actor John Wayne! RuPaul is a victim of gender oppression, as well as of racism.

How masculine women are assumed to know less about gender oppression:

But I grew up very masculine, so the complex and powerful set of skills that feminine girls developed to walk safely through the world were useless to me. I had to learn a very different set of skills, many of them martial. While we both grew up as girls, our experiences were dissimilar because our gender expressions were very different. Masculine girls and women face terrible condemnation and brutality including sexual violence - for crossing the boundary of what is “acceptable” female expression. But masculine women are not assumed to have a very high consciousness about fighting women’s oppression, since we are thought to be imitating men.

And as you said, how trans men deserve access to women's and lesbian's spaces without having their transmasculinity ignored or seen as being butch-in-denial:

And our female-to-male transsexual brothers have a right to feel welcome at women’s movement events or lesbian bars. However, that shouldn’t feed into to misconception that all female-to-male transsexuals were butches who just couldn’t deal with their oppression as lesbians. If that were true, then why does a large percentage of post-transition transsexual men identify as gay and bisexual, which may have placed them in a heterosexual or bisexual status before their transition? There are transsexual men who did help build the women’s and lesbian communities, and still have a large base of friends there. They should enjoy the support of women on their journey. Doesn’t everyone want their friends around them at a time of great change? And women could learn a great deal about what it means to be a man or a woman from sharing the lessons of transition.

Not that "trans women belong in feminism" wouldn't be a good point on its own, but people's selectivity with which parts of that chapter they share definitely warrant scrutiny.

#m.#ask box

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queermasculine · 4 months

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Do you have any butch resources (like reading materials) for transmasculine people that are unsure if they're comfortable IDing as a man vs a butch? Besides Stone Butch Blues (it just gets recommended in every list I already know about it) Trying to figure stuff out...

leslie feinberg has other books besides SBB that you could check out, like drag king dreams (2006), which has a special place in my own heart... but if you're all full on feinberg, another author whose work explores the intersection of butchness and transness would be ivan coyote. really dug their memoir tomboy survival guide (2016) for an example. that one exists in audiobook form too, narrated by the author themself. real pleasant voice on that guy!

neither book is necessarily directly about figuring out whether you're a butch or a man, but maybe they'll help you along in that process anyway. both books made me cry & made me feel very seen as a transmasculine butch personally. if anybody else has any recommendations or insight, i'm sure anon would appreciate it!

but at the end of the day, if you really can't choose between man and butch, you can just be both. you'd be surprised with the amount of guys out there who are both.

#sometimes the human heart is not easily categorizable #mail

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genderqueerdykes · 1 year

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how can someone be a lesbian and a man at the same time? and a traswonan and transman too

hello! thanks for your question!

while people broadly interpret the term lesbian to mean 'woman who loves women', there is a far broader nuance to the identity and label that goes beyond a simple description.

lesbians have a nuanced and complicated experience with gender. butches and femmes both have unique experiences with gender and presentation. nobody likes to talk about us, but some butches *do* identify as men. there are a lot of trans men who start out in lesbian spaces because they are safer, and don't want to leave the community and live as lesbian men. drag kings also are often lesbians. genderfluid lesbians, polygender lesbians, multigender lesbians, genderqueer lesbians, all types of trans lesbians are lesbians regardless of whether or not they are men all the time, or part of the time

lesbians also have a complicated relationship with nonbinary identities and a lot of us find that we fit somewhere under that umbrella. many lesbians find that pushing the boundaries of gender and expression are necessary for survival. i would recommend reading stone butch blues by leslie feinberg to gain a better understanding of lesbians who live this way, or, you are free to visit my lesbian and dyke tags!

as for your second question, i am an intersex person, meaning i was not born with a body that fits into the strict "male" or "female" binary. after i hit puberty i was routinely told i wasn't a "real girl" by someone then told i wasn't a "real boy" by someone else. i was completely stripped of the ability to be gendered correctly by anyone because my body has such a strong mixture of both "masculine" and 'feminine' traits like growing a full beard, having broad shoulders, buff chest, flat breasts, big arms, etc. and an hourglass waist and long shapely legs, high pitched voice, etc.

i am trans "both" or sometimes trans 'everything' as i call myself. my ability to identify as a boy or a girl was completely taken away from me and i am resisting that actively every day. i am a boy and a girl! i'm some type of nonbinary creature, sure, but i am in fact a woman and a man at the same time, but i've had to fight and claw tooth and nail to be seen correctly due to things that weren't under my control.

HRT was kinda my big power move. after i get top surgery and find a good quality packer, i think people will finally understand me and how i identify, but basically, the answer is intersex people, and some other folks can live experiences that make it so they can be both transmasculine and transfeminine at the same time for a multitude of reasons. my experience is just one of many, but it is possible, and we exist!

hope that answers your question! if you need more help, feel free to ask again! take care, stay safe!

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blood-choke · 6 months

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hiiii… i wanted to ask more about this particular val scene where mc and her talk about that portrait and mc is a bit stuck on the word husband and wants val to know theyre not a man. can i ask what inspired that type of convo? i wanted to know if it’s something you’ll touch up on again? is this underlying feelings mc had before their entombment… worried that val sees them as a man just because mc is masc? cause i know that’s kind of broader discussion in the lesbian community iirc….. was that why you wanted to incorporate it? this ask has so many questions LOL but basically i wanted to say i was intrigued and it did made me think more on those type of dynamics (thinking back to those resources you rb’d a while ago that go more into depth about diff things in the lesbian community)

oh boy get ready for another long-winded answer from me!

a lot of the feelings mc has about their gender are inspired by Leslie Feinberg's work (mainly Stone Butch Blues)

Feinberg was someone who lived & passed as a man for years of hir life, and wrote a lot about the complexities of hir gender and what it was like being a "gender outlaw."

there was actually a scene in particular from sbb that kinda put the kernel of an idea in my mind that led to this narrative of the mc feeling overshadowed by Standard and anxious about being perceived as a man. it's towards the end of the book when Jess (sbb's protagonist) meets Ruth (a trans woman that Jess falls in love with)

Jess offers to help Ruth carry groceries up to her apartment, and Ruth takes this the wrong way & is offended, partly because she thinks Jess is a man.

One Saturday afternoon I found her clutching two huge bags of groceries and fumbling with the downstairs front-door lock. I pulled out my key.

“Here, let me.” She didn’t say thank you. She hurried ahead of me on the stairs.

“Can I help you carry those?” I offered.

“Do I look weak to you?” she asked.

I stopped on the stairs. “No. Where I come from it’s just a sign of respect, that’s all.”

She continued up the stairs. “Well, where I come from,” she called out, “men don’t reward women for pretending to be helpless.” Once I heard her apartment door close I kicked the stair in anger and frustration.

later, after they get to know each other better, they have this interaction:

I laughed and picked at my salad. “Do you know if I’m a man or a woman?”

“No,” Ruth said. “That’s why I know so much about you.”

I sighed. “Did you think I was a man when you first met me?" She nodded. "Yes. At first I thought you were a straight man. Then I thought you were gay. It’s been a shock for me to realize that even I make assumptions about sex and gender that aren’t true. I thought I was liberated from all of that.”

I smiled. “I didn’t want you to think I was a man. I wanted you to see how much more complicated I am. I wanted you to like what you saw.”

i think the inspiration here is quite obvious, hahaha. i figure anyone that's read sbb can sense the similar through-line here in my work. though the conversation between mc and Valentina has a much different tone.

there's another scene later as well after something happens to Jess and she has to have her jaw wired shut. she's working at a new job and is unable to speak, and she's also passing as a man at this job. she overhears some of her female coworkers talking about her and they refer to her as a "creep" and speculate that she's always watching one of them. Jess overhears all of this and then walks out of the job, goes home and pulls the wires out of her mouth herself:

After I was sure I’d gotten the last piece of wire out of my gums, I rinsed my mouth with whiskey and then drank the rest of it so I could sleep without remembering how Marija’s words had stripped me of my humanity.

butches & gnc women still face this kind of dehumanization; compared or likened to men in a derogatory way, accused of being "heteropatriarchal," the predatory stereotype of the fat ugly lesbian, and on the other side they're also hypersexualized, especially online and in queer spaces. butchphobia is a specific kind of misogyny that hits from all sides, even from the people that are supposed to be a part of your community. and this attitude especially effects trans women and women of color, who are already experiencing all of these things due to transmisogyny and racism.

i also really wanted to use this to touch on the kind of gender essentialism that we see in a lot of these cis feminist discussions - to these women at this job, Jess had committed no real crime other than being quiet and being the “wrong” kind of man. something about this scene has always stuck with me and really bothered me, but it's hard to put into words; on one hand i can admit i have probably been one of those women who made some kind of similar remark about a man i barely knew, but i've also been someone on the receiving end, too, because of the way i look. the mc in blood choke is put into this box, but they can't fit in, as someone who has been on both sides and doesn't really understand where they belong because of it; how can she stand beside Valentina or Hana or Clear when they might see her as a perpetrator, someone who can't be trusted? how does this mindset harm both the women and the men of the council and everyone in between? how can we break this cycle?

one of the films i mentioned recently when talking about the character designs was The Same Difference, which is specifically about the Black lesbian community and the discrimination within that community based upon gender roles (though this is not something limited to just the Black lesbian community)

a lot of the women in that doc talk about the boxes they're put in as AG or stud lesbians - they can't have their hair long, they can't wear makeup, they can't do this or that, they have to be aggressive and hard or else they're not real studs. they discuss stud on stud (or butch4butch) and how other lesbians look down on those types of lesbians, as well as the disdain for bisexual women for "betraying" the community. it explores the way misogyny and the patriarchy still oppress these women and forces them into this restrictive gender role despite their refusal to adhere to the other role originally assigned to them, and the way racism specifically intersects and exacerbates it for Black lesbians. there's a stud that's an exotic dancer and wears a weave, and a lot of other studs have a problem with this because a weave is "a female thing." another section follows a pregnant stud, and how the community shuns her for that, because she "dresses like a man and acts like a man" so why is she getting pregnant when she should be "the man"?

mc doesn't remember how they felt before entombment, but waking up they feel this need to prove themselves - both in that they are hard and aggressive like a butch should be, but also in that they want to be this person for Valentina or Clear or Hana (or all of them) that is safe and comforting. but they aren't sure how to do that when the world perceives them as this one specific thing - as a husband, as Standard, as a man, specifically this man who hurt Valentina.

of course we've already seen this to not be true of the companions with the last chapter as the mc learns more and spends more time with everyone. but this is kind of the foundation of where this whole idea came from. it started with my novel & i chose vampires for that story & this one because there is a long history of lesbian vampirism (and also because it's sexy) but there's this "curse" that both Hana & Valerie talk about in their respective stories, the first one being the racism she's had to face, the transphobia, along with this alienation and perception of lesbians as predatory and conniving and aggressive, as vampires, which i just think really lends itself to expanding upon these issues lesbians & trans women face both in general and within the community.

anyways if you want to read more i suggest Stone Butch Blues, which you can get for free on Leslie Feinberg's website, as well as S/he, by Minnie Bruce Pratt, available on the internet archive, Gender Failure by Ivan E. Coyote & Rae Spoon also on the internet archive, and you can rent The Same Difference for $10 on vimeo.

#im gonna be real idk if this makes sense to anyone but me. lmfao #but basically leslie feinberg is a huge inspiration for me #and just exploring the way homophobia and transphobia and misogyny all intersect when someone is gnc #and the expectations put on them #i think about butch al a lot and the things she says to jess and the way that section of the book plays out #and then in the end when the cops raid the bar #al and jess are fags except for what the cops did to al and the way they dehumanize her #how the mc is considered a man in certain instances - when the girls throw a brick at her or when the woman yells at her in the bathroom #or when atlas shakes hands with her and calls her their man #but other times she's a 'proper lady' with V or when that man gives her and Hana a dirty look in the elevator #or when cassius says 'ladies first'#mc is always one or the other whatever is convenient and degrades her the most in the moment #you know?#i dont know. im just saying stuff #basically i want to explore these gendered expectations & stereotypes and how they harm someone vulnerable like mc #how they feel alienated even from V & hana & clear for not being butch enough #but also for being butch and trans in the first place and feeling like an infiltrator #ask #anonymous

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filmnoirsbian · 1 year

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I recently realized that I’m not attracted to men at all and am feeling out calling myself a lesbian (and falling in love with it more each day). Your lesbian tag is teaching me about femme lesbians now and it just feels so comfortable as a label, for me, as I try and unlearn how I’ve accidentally angled myself towards men my whole life. Do you have any book recommendations about femme lesbian culture/history?

Hi honey, firstly congrats on this new chapter of your life! I wish you nothing but self-love and happiness. ❣ I hope some of these can help:

A brief his and herstory of butch and femme

Locating femme theory

Playing femme and not playing it straight: passing, performance, and queering time and place

Gender Trouble by Judith Butler

Stone Butch Blues by Leslie Feinberg

The Persistent Desire by Joan Nestle

#asks #lavender club #resources

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genderoutlaws · 1 year

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Sorry to send you an ask about this, but is driving me nuts; do any of you happen to know that Leslie Feinberg quote that goes like, “a society which will not accept crossdressers will not accept any form of homosexuality or sexual deviancy”?

this is so annoying bc i know Exactly what you mean and i swear i just saw someone post that quote with a link the other day on here but i cant find shit on it rn — followers pls help / will hopefully update hfjdj

edit:

hgraceart replied: tumblr won’t let me link the post but is it from Dagger: On Butch Women that’s “A society which cannot tolerate genderbending or cross- dressing ultimately will not tolerate homosexuality, bisexuality, or any other deviance from sexual or gender norms, no matter how closeted or assimilated.”

edit 2:

found the passage! from Dagger: On Butch Women by Lily Burana, Roxxie Linnea Due

#asks #azuremist #i feel like it might not’ve even been feinberg but i cant rmbr

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cripple-punk-dad · 4 months

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Hello I hope u don't mind me messaging abt this, and hopefully ur the right person to ask (I've seen u post abt it a few times I think?) but I was just wondering what exactly "butch" means? I've tried looking into it for myself, but I've got some developmental/learning disabilities which makes it harder and all of the stuff I've found online is super contradictory, and it's confusing the hell out of me lol. Just trying to learn a bit more since it's not something I'm super familiar with. Feel free to ignore this obviously, ik it's not ur job lol- any resources or whatever would be appreciated though! Thank you have a great rest of your day/night

This is one of those questions that has two answers: a complicated, historically complex, highly debated, universally controversial answer, and a deceptively short and sweet answer. As is anything related to queer terminology lol. I am by no means an expert on the historical usage of the term butch, nor is my say the end all be all. I highly recommend reading anything by Leslie Feinberg on the subject, especially Stone Butch Blues. I encourage you to continue to ask questions and do your own research.

That being said: the simple answer? Butch means queer masculinity. More complicated answer: It can be a gender modifier, (i.e "butch bear" refers to a queerly masculine presenting hairy fat gay man.) it can be a gender identity ("xe is one of those butches"), it can be a gender descriptor ("she's so butch"). Butch can look and act like anything. It's got the same nebulous, hard to pin down/put into words feeling as "femme" or like trying to explain "campy" to a cishet. But it's most commonly recognized across the modern and historical queer community as a person who (regardless of gender identity/sex assigned at birth) presents traditionally masculine but queer/exaggerated, (short hair, bigger muscles, button ups, leather boots, leather accessories, wielding power tools, etc.) And behaves/has personality traits that align with traditional masculinity but in a queer way (ex. a stereotypical focus on helping others/"providing", stereotypically the "giver" or "top" in a sexual sense). Butch is a satirization of masculinity, a loving nod to masculinity. It is masculinity that has been examined with a microscope, or thrown on like a costume. (Femme) drag queens imitate, exaggerate, and revel in queer femininity as a form of self-expression, protest, and reclamation, (butch) drag kings do the same to queer masculinity. It's not a term exclusive to lesbians/dykes, but it does have a huge part in dyke/lesbian culture/history. It's a fascinating subject to dive into the history of.

#i have a complicated relationship with the term butch can you tell lol

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rollercoasterwords · 3 months

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Hey it’s the gender and sexuality anon here!! Just read ur response to my previous question and the way u used accents as a metaphor for gender/sexuality opened my third eye. Thank you so much!! It’s all so much clearer I’d always pictured that stuff as either innate or socially manufactured,, never considered the prospect of a third option.

ok cool glad u found it helpful! if ur interested in other resources/further reading abt like. the interplay between material & semiotic or the social construction of gender some texts that have been helpful 4 me personally which i would recommend r like cistem failure by marquis bey, "performative acts and gender constitution" by judith butler (also gender trouble by butler but that book is like. REALLY dense lol), "gender nihilism" by alyson escalante (& the follow-up essay, "beyond negativity"), "my words to victor frankenstein" by susan stryker, "on liking women" by andrea long chu, trans liberation: beyond pink or blue by leslie feinberg...jack halberstam is another great scholar who writes abt trans & gender etc.

#ask #book recs #best place 2 start on this list is probably the feinberg if ur brand new 2 this stuff #hir writing is like. v accessible & easy 2 follow esp. in that book

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kithj · 11 months

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i thought it would be fun to share what i’m reading for pride :-)

pageboy by elliot page

i have been a lifelong fan of elliot page, one of my first celebrity crushes (alongside anna paquin in xmen) & if you’ve ever watched any of his other work like gaycation or there’s something in the water, you know he is very articulate & deliberate with his words & that definitely translates into his writing as well. i’m about halfway through and really enjoying it, his writing is again very deliberate and snappy, and i like how he reflects on the history of where he grew up and interweaves it with his childhood & present day. one of my favorite passages so far is when he's reminiscing about playing pretend as a boy:

"Those were some of the best times of my life, traveling to another dimension where I was... me. And not just a boy but a man, a man who could fall in love and be loved back. Why do we lose that ability? To create a whole world? A bunk bed was a kingdom, I was a boy."

stone butch blues by leslie feinberg

i’ve read this collection many years ago as a teen/early 20s and it’s actually been really hard for me to reread. i got through the first 3 chapters and had to set it aside because it was really affecting me. maybe because i’m older… anyways, not sure if i’m going to finish this reread since i don’t really think i’m in the right headspace to handle it. however there’s a lot of Leslie Feinberg’s writing available online, i’ve shared some previously and you can find them here :-) sbb is also available for free on hir website, and i do still recommend it, just be aware of the content before you start reading.

honorable mentions follow because i haven't gotten the books in the mail yet 😭

miss major speaks by miss major griffin-gracy

this book just came out this past month, and i'm waiting for my copy to arrive. i'll just share the description here:

Miss Major Griffin-Gracy is a veteran of the infamous Stonewall Riots, a former sex worker, and a transgender elder and activist who has survived Bellevue psychiatric hospital, Attica Prison, the HIV/AIDS crisis and a world that white supremacy has built. She has shared tips with other sex workers in the nascent drag ball scene of the late 1960s, and helped found one of America’s first needle exchange clinics from the back of her van. Miss Major Speaks is both document of her brilliant life–told with intimacy, warmth and an undeniable levity-and a roadmap for the challenges black, brown, queer and trans youth will face on the path to liberation today.

you can donate to miss major's fundly here

the persistent desire: a femme-butch reader edited by joan nestle

i've read some of the essays in this anthology previously, but i have a really hard time reading the scanned pages on my laptop (hurts my head) so i bit the bullet and ordered my own copy from a used bookstore. it was suspiciously cheap compared to where i've seen it elsewhere, so fingers crossed it's the real deal. i'm excited because the shop noted that it had previous wear & potential writing in the margins from the previous owner and i look forward to seeing the thoughts of the person before me :-)

i really like reading older lesbian literature, though it makes me sad sometimes that a lot of the lesbian bar culture no longer exists. i wish i could go back and talk to some of the women and butches that lived through it.

hijab butch blues by lamya h

this is next on my to-read list, i think i might jump over to this one since i've set sbb aside for now. i'll just paste the description again:

When fourteen-year-old Lamya H realizes she has a crush on her teacher—her female teacher—she covers up her attraction, an attraction she can’t yet name, by playing up her roles as overachiever and class clown. Born in South Asia, she moved to the Middle East at a young age and has spent years feeling out of place, like her own desires and dreams don’t matter, and it’s easier to hide in plain sight.

To disappear. But one day in Quran class, she reads a passage about Maryam that changes everything: when Maryam learned that she was pregnant, she insisted no man had touched her. Could Maryam, uninterested in men, be . . . like Lamya?

i'm excited to read this one and get my own copy eventually. a lot of the butch literature i've read has been from white butches (primarily leslie feinberg & ivan coyote) & i look forward to reading a new perspective. kitty tsui is also another butch whose work i really like, she has an essay in the persistent desire and i know that one has made the rounds on tumblr before.

anyways just felt like sharing ! i haven't been able to do anything for pride this year so i'm trying to fill the void a bit with reading a lot of gay/lesbian literature. hope you all are having a safe and happy pride :-)

#personal

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stormysapphic · 11 months

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Do you have any posts on how a femme can take care of their butch? Thank you 💗

hii❣ well, this might seem a bit obvious - and i'll get to actual suggestions in a bit, dw - but i'd just like to start by saying that butch/femme interactions and "taking care of" one another in a butch/femme relationship can look very different for different people! for example, one thing that almost always comes up when discussing what femmes give to butches is recognition - being seen and loved as themselves in a society that does not in general appreciate or even acknowledge the existence of female/lesbian masculinity* such as butchness. but even something as apparently universal as that can manifest in almost opposite-seeming ways in different butch/femme relationships! for one butch, the most affirming thing a femme can do is calling them handsome and strong & letting them express chivalry or other behaviours society sees as being "only for men". for another butch, their femme cuddling them at the end of a long day & calling them cute and sweet and a teddy bear & drawing them a pink bubble bath without questioning their identity is what makes them feel seen in a world where butches are often expected to be tough and hardened and on their guard. and i think that that diversity of expression & how we communicate our specific needs to each other & craft our own lives is really beautiful! anyway, you probably are already aware of all that & are just looking for some inspiration. 💕 for me, that usually comes in the form of butch/femme writings old and new - things that capture the spirit of butch/femme for me, even when the specifics of each relationship are up to the people involved. 💞 so here are some quotes and a couple of longer texts! 💗lesbiandomesticity and considerate-butch on the aforementioned importance of femmes seeing and loving butches as they are 💗ivan coyote on a moment when a femme's recognition made things fall into place for their baby butch self 💗leslie feinberg on protecting and being protected by a femme lover (references queerphobic violence) 💗sillyfxmme on how butches and femmes belong together 💗amy fox on how femmes helped her (as a trans woman) and other butches find their butchness and feel comfortable in it (contains the t slur reclaimed) 💗susan kane's (a femme) poem on how they love butches 💗lesbianjadzia on historical the role of femmes in protecting butches and the community at large from police brutality/queerphobic violence (references queerphobic violence) 💗merril mushroom's humorous essay describing butch/femme courting rituals in the 1950s also! i'd love nothing more than for butches in butch/femme relationships - or dreaming of them - to reply to this with things their femmes do that they (would) love! (*not all butches relate to words such as "masculine" or "masculinity", but i'm using that as a shorthand here. hope everyone understands what i'm trying to say!)

#Anonymous #answered

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