#For context: I was going to make a post complaining about how lesbians don't have enough good musical theater duets | Explore Tumblr Posts and Blogs

genderkoolaid · 7 months

Note

Tumblr.com/kikurihiroienjoyer/729469124420517889

Yknow i almost at least partially agreed w this post for a second (mainly in the context of certain cultures having different views on gender/sexuality than we do now) but then you randomly insult trans men in the tags and the reblog is nowhere better- I’m sorry but we kinda HAVE to infer certain figures are transmasc because trans men are consistently erased from records, even ones that explicitly said they were men get rewritten as “women escaping patriarchy by disguising as a man”

[obligatory Don't Harass People notice]

love how the post itself is so general and normal and then the tags just go full mask off "i'm mad that transmascs are talking about things >:(((" and then the rb tags which are just unchanged TERF rhetoric

the funny thing is if you actually acknowledge that modern labels and gender constructions can't be applied to historical figures then we have MORE potential figures in transmasc history. its when people cling to the idea of "they could be a lesbian OR a trans man, we can't say (so we'll assume she was cis)." for any kind of collective trans history to be narrated, we have to acknowledge that there are people who could not identify with our terms even if they wanted to, and that what makes them part of trans* history is not whether or not our labels can be applied to them, but the experiences shared between modern trans* people and people of queer/varied genders throughout history. Like when we talk about George Sand being part of transmasculine history, thats not because they were For Sure A Trans Guy, but because as cross-dressing woman they share trans*- (in the expansive "gender variant" sense) -masculine experiences.

L + ratio + "there's enough actual transmascs do that with" people hate us for calling them transmascs too + transmasculine history can also be feminist history if you understand transfeminism + why are you only complaining about transmascs here? do no transfems ever simplify historical figures and use modern terminology to describe their genders? + booooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

#m.#ask box #examples of transandrophobia #transandrophobia #transmisandry #anti transmasculinity #transunity

264 notes · View notes

condomatsu · 5 months

Text

LOTS OF HOMESTUCK FANDOM RAMBLING AND COMPLAINS

[this is my view, this is my opinion, idc if you disagree, idc if you agree, i just wanna talk about it and hopefully never touch the subject ever again] [english is not my first language, pardon my errors]

"Kanaya and Rose are lesbians!!!" that's a cool and valid headcanon, but you recognize and treat it as what it is - a headcanon - right?

You recognize that people who ships Kanaya and Karkat are not 'homophobes' nor are 'trying to erease Kanaya's sexuality', right?

I like rosemary, I really do, but I'm TIRED to see people writing "DNI IF YOU SHIP KANAYA/ROSE WITH BOYS". You're entitled to do that, sure, that's not even the biggest problem. THE problem is when 'fans' see the ship and not the characters and don't go over that. They see rosemary as "the lesbians uwu" and nothing else.

Rose and Kanaya used to be very complex and unique characters. Sure, Act6 ruined them, but Act6 ruined EVERYONE, so what's the difference? Why so many people headcanons Karkat as 'gay' but still recognize him as his own character? Why it's not the same with Rose and Kanaya?

They basically don't exist outside of their relationship anymore, they exist as a whole that consist in just "the sapphics, the lovers, the wives" and that's it.

Mind you, I would still say this even if their canon sexuallity was lesbian, but the fact they're not and people are so aggressive about it makes it so much worse.

Rose has shown interest in men, Kanaya - as EVERY troll - doesn't even know wtf 'sexuality' means. Basically, if we HAVE to give the a sexuality, Rose is more bisexual and Kanaya pansexual - maybe omni since Hussie said Kanaya's interest in women is "a fetish"; something horrorific that I seriously don't know how fans (indireclty) accepted (by making Kanaya as "the lesbian uwu").

I feel like repeating myself, but YOU CAN HEADCANON THEM AS THE FUCK YOU WANT TO! You can even feel uncomfortable if people ships them with the opposite gender! You can post/talk/reblog/etc about them only when they're paired together, I do it too! But don't go after people who sees them differently; don't go after people who doesn't buy the 'canon rosemary bullshit' (remember they interacted very less and very less romantically than other famous ships like grimdorks after all); don't geniunly think about them as "the lesbians" and nothing else. This is why wlw ships and woman characters are so less relevant and seen in fandom spaces. Yeah, they're in every Beta kids/troll draw, but them ALONE as themselves, without making their sexulity/relationships the centre of the thing? How many character analysis there are about homestuck boys - sometimes even without mentioning their relationships at all? How many there are about girls character? And I used rosemary as an example but Jade suffers a lot of this too.

Have you seen Jade outside of the "best girl" or "autistic girl" or "cute girl who can beat your ass" context? Much less, right? The last one - "cute girl who can beat your ass" - is even less present then the others somehow. Jade in general is very less present in the fandom in general.

"It always has been this way" I disagree. VRISKA is the perfect example for this. If you go further back into the fandom, you'll see tons and tons of Vriska-solo content, lots of analysis, fanarts, fanfics, etc. But since she became the "Terezi's moirail uwu" she stopped existing so much outside of her relationship with Terezi. Even Vriska's relationship with Tavros didn't do that. Gosh, not even Vriska's PAST relationship with Kanaya did that! I'm not even sure this people even KNOW Vriska and Kanaya were moirails and that Rose was supposed to 'replace Vriska' and become Kanaya's moirail herself.

But times have changed and now Vriska too is the "butch lesbian" and nothing else. Well, in her case, she still have lots of solo-moments in the fandom, but I think that's because of her HUGE part in Homestuck, were you simply cannot talk about it without mentioning her and the stuff she does. "That's valid for Rose and Kanaya too", yeah, but significantly less, you understand that? You *can* summorize Homestuck without mentioning Rose's role in the Beta SBURB session and so it's for Kanaya, but it's more difficoult to do so without mentioning Vriska's numerous interventions and fucked ups. Also, Vriska is a much more controversial character, of course people are going to discuss her more outside of her relationships.

I'm happy that this fandom considers characters as Nepeta and Feferi, even if they have such a short screentime. Still there are plenty of problems with how they're portaied in the fandom.

Nepeta's "cat-girl >w<" moments are more or less stopped; old fandom already saw this and contrasted this. The same can't be said for Feferi.

I'll say this once here and only once and (hopefully) nowhere else: Feferi is not a good person, and she's not a bitch either.

"But she stopped Eridan from committing genocide!" she still wanted to keep lowbloods as pets.

"But she used Eridan and broke up with him!" she forced herself in a relation with him to keep his morderous intentions down.

Do you see what's the problem here? It's not the ships, it's not the screentime, it's not the misscharacterization, the problem is the white-black mentality people have in fandoms; the belief that one character can exist in one context and nothing else (one ship, one way of thinking, one characteristic, ...). Characters can and should be more complex than one characteristic they have which is a little fraction of themselves. AND this is especially true for girls/women characters, who are STILL viewed less and less complexly than boys/men characters, and THAT'S what kills complete girls characters and kills variations and fertilize misscharacterizations.

—sincerelly, a solkat lover who berally can see them outside of their relationship and doesn't like other ships with them

EDIT: some people have read the incipit as lesbophic, I'm very sorry for that! here are two posts (post n1), (post n2), where I clarify it. Feel free to send an ask too if there's some doubts about my statements or if you disagree on something (and explain why of course).

#homestuck #homestuck fandom #fandoms #in general cuz it's still true for other fandoms #women characters #rosemary #Rose Lalonde #Kanaya Maryam #Jade Harley #Vriska Serket #Nepeta Leijon #Feferi Peixes #long post #ramblings #complaining

17 notes · View notes

aroaessidhe · 1 year

Note

I mean, I do see where you’re coming from with the blurb thing, especially with how that poll was worded, but the majority of people I see actually complaining about the phenomenon are talking specifically about the ways books are recommended. Again I agree with you that I prefer it’s mentioned somewhere because I like to know (though sometimes being surprised by it in a book where I didn’t expect it is a delight), but if someone lists a bunch of books only by what kind of rep it has I won’t go personally googling every single book on the list simply because it’s gay, because my time is limited and there are some genres I won’t be interested in no matter what, so I prefer rec lists that as a minimum includes the genre, preferably also tone and basic plot (is it a mystery? a romance?). Not sending this to try and argue with you, just hoping to clarify where a lot of people are coming from!

I get that, but it's still a big ol overexaggeration imo! Most of the time when people are doing brief bullet point rec lists it is in the context of an age range/genre, or some other more specific element anyway? and if it includes the cover (which most do) you also will have a genre/age/tone indication (aside from the occasional book with a cover that badly communicates content).

like every time I see anything remotely like this it is always either a) "lesbian mystery books:" [showing just the cover of 10+ books] intending a broad selection to just pique someone's interest, and communicate the fact that these books have lesbian MCs to people who may not have been aware of that (and btw adding a sentence or two on every single one is a LOT of effort, especially in video format - and the op probably ALSO does longform reviews of individual books) or b) "check out this aroace YA fantasy!" <- minimial wordcount which includes genre/tone as briefly as it does any 'rep'

and then you have c) which is like a teenager who discovered a book that reflects their experience for the first time and they're excitedly talking about it just in the context of that element, which if you're mad about.......okay. (or sometimes you'll see a list of 'queer books' and it is the most random broad combination of genres, tones, age ranges - which is very clearly just someone new to reading queer books the only things they've read and enjoyed so far. those make me giggle a little.)

I often see books like 10 times on social media of just the cover and basic info that's used in all promo & am vaguely interested but don't see anything about it that might stand out. And then will see ONE post of '"books with the 'older grumpy person accidentally adopting an orphan' trope" and am like OKAY i'm intrigued - that is the purpose of these sorts of posts! telling you MORE than what the basic age/genre/plot/tone is! (and yes in the context of identity too, I can know about a book for months before finding out it has aspec characters and I run a database dedicated to that)

There are people that talk about books badly and clumsily everywhere, in every form of communication (tweets, GR reviews, tiktoks, whatever). I absolutely see reviews and stuff ppl say about books all the time where I am like OOF why are you only mentioning x without the context that it's only a tiny part of the book, or without mentioning some other significant thing.

But the idea that people are only ever saying 'heres x book, it's gay!' and never talking about anything else or doing any reviews is just not as common as people claim and shows no understanding of the wider context of the book community or the function of different ways of discussing or promoting books!!

#also not arguing just explaining my point more lol!!!#i dont know who you are i am just mad at the people being actively mean in the notes of that post :)#sorry for the essay i have been thinking about it a lot #also as an aside I actually do viscerally despise the word rep and will scroll past anything where someone says:#heres this book it has x y z rep #(you can say x main character and y and z side characters - so much more informative)#so like i do get frustrated by how people communicate this stuff sometimes #laya talks

3 notes · View notes

duskwingmoth · 4 months

Text

notes and highlights from reading my discord message history (2016):

girl u used to be so sillay. I should get silly with it sometimes

2016 me was a little confused but was also so fucking right about lars steven universe

ough. Failure to recognize imminent trump presidency. You stupid fucking liberal ffs

do u rember enjoying overwatch. I rember...

Liveblogging the sonic 2016 stream like "this new charmy bee album is bussin"

"I just saw the quintessential torb potg"

"beginning with him dying"

hanging on his corpse for the full respawn timer"

"while his turret did the hard work"

"predictably nowhere onscreen"

I was the first drop dash hater. If there are no more drop dash haters i am dead

attempting to read through this sexting now KNOWING FOR SURE i was absolutely faking it is. cringe

S. Skoop. I forgot that i called skype "skoop" (and that there was a brief period where i had it on my phone while discord was on my pc)

Talking about multiple story/game concepts i have since abandoned. Death

Doesn't matter if it's 2013, 2016, or 2024; somebody somewhere is complaining about JJ Abrams. It is probably me

There was a dang stevenbomb when these messages start and tbh I was right on the money abt steven universe in general. More ppl should have listened to me instead

huniepop lmao

I was still in iPhone Hell

Making comments to friends about things i refuse to share or elaborate on. I have learned nothing

playing ALL the hits tbh we even got Complain About Family in here

Scoutposting but it's overwatch

"defense shouldn't have left the point undefended"

Bitch shut UP about Pokémon

Oh my GOD just Shut Up About Video Games in general

The Sword Art Online hater has logged on

All these tumblr links that don't work anymore. Sad

How did i make it to 22 without realizing i was experiencing caffeine withdrawal

Yes yes past robin you've got nintendo diagnosed as fuck can you not sound rude and elitist and also cryptoracist about it

(three hours worth of messages just ranting about nintendo jfc. 2009 youtube would have loved me)

The Traumadumping,

Watch watch. You can see the exact moment steven universe rips her heart in half

Reading through basically all the previous things in varying order. Knowing what's coming up.

The moment

Oh no... The Federation Force announcement. The five stages of grief logged in real time

girl your dick was not out for harambe you did not even know what that meant

Hare-brained game concepts part 3027498: radio station with hundreds of hours of recorded dj voice lines

360 controller sucks send post

It is so easy to tell what youtube poop i was hyperfixated on at any given point

girl u really went looking for and personally banned specific slurs in your twitch chat and proceeded to NEVER STREAM. Self-harm champion. Self-harm's strongest warrior

Oh my god. The inception of steam user gofasthog was on my birthday

Is sent jerma rumble live-action with no prior knowledge or context. Complains

Affirming my girlfriend's life choices and gender. Rare pre-crack based moment

Not long now

The PSVita Chronicles. Very short-lived

"Why is twitter orange" wtf are you on about

September 26th, 2016; 09:00 AM PDT:

There really is like. A shift in my tone after this. Immediately so much performative anger is just gone

"I'm trying not to think about it tbh" no you should be thinking about it more. More please for your health pLEASE think of the hips you are going to lose your chance

Lesbian Gay Bacon Tomato Quiche Ice Arson. I cracked the code

Impostor syndrome. Envy. Jealousy. Girlthing you need to chill

Posting through having my shoes disintegrate instead of asking for a new pair. Lol. Lmao even

Finally watched the jerma rumble series and enjoyed myself. The redemption arc we all deserved and didn't know we needed

Utterly failing to code basic game functions. I needed my girlf frend to help me she is so smart and cute and lovely

the wii u woes

And the switch jokes. They're bad! They're very bad

I had played the paladins beta. You can tell because i complained about torbjörn overwatch again

Civ VI release date, or: how i learned that having good CPU was actually really important

Also the day i committed to my new name

More coding failure

Mere hours before the election polls are called it dawns on us both that we really are going to get a trump presidency and i weep with despair while trying to convince us both that the worst won't happen

(It didn't. We are alive and together)

You can see me desperately struggling with the growing reality that i am not as politically reasonable as i consider myself

A dark pall over the holidays. I won't elaborate. I don’t think it's necessary

#long post

1 note · View note

swashbucklery · 2 years

Note

I'd just like to put it out there that I have been really enjoying your thoughts on Bridgerton and would be absolutely delighted to hear literally anything else you have to say about it. Especially if it's related to Eloise Bridgerton being a lesbian or Kate Sharma exploring her sexuality. Hope you're having a lovely day

Oh my god anon okay. OKAY.

Because here is the thing I like Bridgerton but I also hate it. I love it like Kate Sharma loves Anthony which is to say that I sit down in front of it and spend 53 minutes SEETHING and going UGH WHY CAN'T YOU BE BETTER and then spend 7 minutes enjoying myself and well. Here we are.

And I stand behind my feelings in this post because I feel like that was the piece that like. Kate is SO GOOD and she's FASCINATING but I feel like she sort of fell victim to her own success in some ways. They did such a good job of making her SO tough SO independent SO closed off that then when she had to break apart it just - it was fine but it didn't LAND, you know? And it gets me because I wanted it to land so much.

Which: this is always fraught and I don't want to get into the idea of "good" romance or "bad" romance because the fact of the matter is that romance is a matter of taste. Things that one person finds unspeakably romantic and deeply erotic are going to be another person's hard squicks and there are limits to how much it can be universalized.

But if they were going to fix Bridgerton to cater specifically to ME then:

- Eloise is a lesbian she’s a FUCKING lesbian she and Pen are in love and neither of them know what to do about it because they don’t have the language to interpret their feelings so they’re just being awful garbage teens about it. Pen got so upset about Eloise liking a boy that she fucking rUINED HER NAME in the SOCIETY PAPERS by IMPLYING THAT SHE WAS A SLUT like fuck Lady Whistledown that’s not what it was about IT WAS ABOUT THE FACT THAT IT WAS ELOISE AND A BOY WHO WASN’T PENELOPE.

- Eloise who saw enough pieces to the puzzle and had that horrible shaking realization and it wasn’t about the clues like the type of ink or the printing at all that undid the secret. It was about the ways that she noticed Pen’s words and the ways that those words were always informed by Eloise. The context of complaining to Pen about something and then Lady Whistledown agreeing with her the following week. The context of Eloise being ~ruined and Pen not writing again. The way that she sees how guilty Pen is but also the absolute and utter unforgivability of what she’s done because Eloise is so - she’s so noble, she has these beautiful ideals that she truly believes in because she’s still so young in a lot of ways. And it’s not that Pen said the thing or that Eloise’s reputation is harmed it’s the breach of trust it’s the deep intimacy of their friendship being broken open at its foundation.

- It’s the way that neither of them have ever really cried, ever really been hurting, and suddenly when they’re betrayed by the other it’s the most mortal wound imaginable

- Anyway somewhere out there is a universe where Eloise mopes about Pen for an entire winter and doesn’t write once, and Pen tries to do something ugly. Something awful, something vicious and dramatic and when Eloise doesn’t react it’s more than she can possibly bear.

- Pen who tries over and over to get Eloise to notice her because Eloise’s indifference is intolerable

- Eloise who refuses to react, refuses to engage, is perfectly civil and appropriate and doesn’t given Penelope a single drop of ammunition until Penelope finally cracks. It’s not Pen being mean that undoes her it’s the moment when Penelope says, with real genuine pain in her voice, heart in throat, that she misses her.

- The way that they’re both shaking with the intensity of what they’re feeling. (They’re in an orangerie, they must be, trees and the smell of citrus penning them in while they’re looking out a conservatory window at the party below, everyone lit up like little jewels)

- The moment when Eloise breaks, and it’s about the tears and it’s about how angry she is and it’s about how she missed Penelope every single day and she couldn’t even bear to say it after what Penelope did.

- It’s these two tearing each other up and fighting and crying and at the end of it they’re both exhausted, slumped against each other, all fought out and wrung out.

- It’s that moment when Eloise’s hand is resting on her lap and Penelope laces their fingers together and something shifts. Like the floor is less even. Like suddenly they’re noticing something they can never unsee. Suddenly their faces are so close and they’re both just raw and exhausted and they don’t think: it just happens.

- That first kiss and it turns into this absolutely consuming, absolutely overwhelming bodice-ruffling makeout session and it’s Penelope that panics first because Everyone Will Know and Eloise like: why, are you going to fucking tell them and it’s such a mess, they finally fixed things and now it’s a mess all over again

- But also what if Penelope stopped being awful. What if she kissed Eloise and left for a few weeks and then realized that she was being so mean because of her pent-up gayness and just like. . .calmed down.

- IDK what happens then probably a lot of drama but I think it ends with one of them entering into a sham marriage with a lovely gay gentleman and then living comfortably in a country house with the other partner and the gay gentleman’s boyfriend as their ~live in companions~. Eloise is given a small allowance and uses it to write novels under a male pseudonym. It’s wonderful.

#sorry i got carried away but this IS what happens #i also have feelings about kate but i think that's going to derail this #you'll have to send me another ask if you want them anon #this also works as an elaborate battle of words #in which eloise starts a competing publication using penelope's playbook #and sometimes it's scooping lady whistledown's gossip #but most of the time it's just correcting her grammar and providing counter-opinions on lady whistledown's opinions #in a complex regency form of subtweeting #and eventually this escalates to a confrontation #but they DO kiss in an orangerie after a particularly vicious fight #that's non-negotiable #eloise bridgerton is a FUCKING lesbian fight me #eloise x penelope #bridgerton: georgian gossip girl #tagfic #my fic

27 notes · View notes

vampish-glamour · 3 years

Note

The ask about radfems being right made me want to rant. The sheer vitriol against TERFs (including graphic rape threats which automatically makes them look sympathetic) made people forget some important points

1) radfems, and people who believe in radical ideologies, are very good at presenting the milder points of their philosophy. No radfem is dumb enough to go to someone like "men should be castrated before puberty for the safety of women", they'd start with something much milder like "I hate how teen boys get sex ed from porn at a young age" or something like that

2) the same line can have different meanings depending on the person. "We must protect vulnerable ethnicities at risk of genocide": a normal person might mean, I don't know, indigenous people being erased, and you might agree. But what if it's a white supremacist saying that, and he meant white people being replaced by mixed race people and immigrants? Very different context. Radfems employ similar strategies: "a dress doesn't make you a woman" can mean "gender is not tied to gender expression" or "trans women aren't women"

3) a broken clock is right twice a day. Just because a radfem says that the sky is blue, doesn't mean it's actually green. Just because she denounces Jessica Yaniv (because no one else does), doesn't mean you have to defend that person. Just because she says that the number of AFAB enbies who say "I'm nonbinary because I hate common women experiences like pregnancies" is worrying and might hint at internalized misogyny, doesn't mean she isn't right about that. Again, it's the entire context that makes radfeminism repugnant, but you can agree on some points for very different reasons.

And besides, we all know the woke left loves almost every radfeminist points except "trans bad" and "queer is a slur", so they don't get to complain :V

Mad agree (also I want to clarify that the ask wasn’t about radfems being right—it was about their base level claims often being right and easy to agree with, as well as easy to understand where those claims come from. And that’s how people go down the road of getting into the radical stuff, and ending up being batshit crazy radical feminists/terfs).

Your point about starting with milder takes is exactly what I was trying to get at with my response to the ask—and you gave a great example. On the surface, the take “I hate that teen boys get sex ed from porn” is an overall agreeable one. Porn is a terrible place to get sex education, in the same way medical shows are terrible places to learn what it’s like to be a surgeon, and cop shows are terrible places to learn what it’s like to be a cop. It’s all incredibly unrealistic.

So arguably, radfems are right when they make that surface basic claim, as it’s not a radical feminist exclusive claim. But then they manage to twist “teen boys are getting sex ed from porn and that’s bad” into “we should just castrate teen boys because men are inherently rapists and porn makes you a rapist”. And I would hope most rational people would go “holy shit wtf” to that claim.

And with the flexibility of lines, I see that a lot. I mean… it even happens with far right vs far left. Remember that post that said “white people shouldn’t adopt non white kids”, and a bunch of far leftists were agreeing because they believed white people adopting non white kids was racist… and it turned out the post had actually been made by a far right white supremacist, who believed that non whites were inferior to whites.

Terfs definitely take that into consideration. To myself, “a dress doesn’t make you a woman” means that dresses aren’t necessary to womanhood, and the lack of dresses isn’t necessary to manhood. To a terf, “a dress doesn’t make you a woman” means “trans women are men in dresses”.

And yes, thank you for pointing out the broken clock thing. Because obviously a radfem can say something sensical. Not everything that comes out of a radfem is necessarily radfem beliefs… so trying to act like anything a radfem ever says must be terf rhetoric is ridiculous. It’s just that most of the stuff radfems are “right” about are those surface level claims (again, like “a dress doesn’t make you a woman”) that aren’t actually radfem belief. It’s when you put that statement into the context they see it in, when it becomes radfem belief. That still doesn’t make the base claim wrong or radfem, though. Just the context radical feminism gives it.

Even “queer is a slur”… that’s not radfem belief. Do a lot of radfems believe queer is a slur? Yes. But something tells me that’s less about them being radfems, and more about many radfems being wlw (or at least claim to be wlw). The ones who aren’t claim to be allies (despite likely supporting political lesbianism). So is it really that surprising that a group largely filled with wlw, people who think they’re wlw, and people who think they support wlw, is against a homophobic slur being treated as if it’s not a homophobic slur???

I also agree that terfs are able to rack up a lot of sympathy from the constant hatred thrown their way. I know we all dislike terfs. But aggressively hating them is exactly what they want!!! Because then they can say things like “they’re silencing us because they don’t want to hear the truth”, or claim victimhood because clearly everyone hates them because something something patriarchy misogyny sexism. I’ve seen so many terfs take pride in the hatred they get, and it only solidifies their beliefs and turns others towards them. So no, constant “fuck terfs” posts don’t do any good. They just fuel the fire of the radfem oppression complex.

And it’s completely true that a lot of progressives actually would agree with radfem beliefs in full context, as long as it didn’t have “radfem/terf” attached onto it. And as long as it had nothing to do with trans people. Mainly anything talking about how evil men are.

Anyways, great points!!

#asks #anon

30 notes · View notes

thesharondefenseleague · 3 years

Note

Ok for like the fetishization/sexualization for mlm in fandom I swear people just missed the point entirely. Like no one is out here complaining that Thor is sexualized in Ragnarok while people do complain about Natasha being sexualized because women being sexualized and fetishsized is the norm it is the default.

We are so conditioned to see images like that with women that sometimes it takes a man depicted in the same way ( like with the Hawkeye initiative) to see how over the top it is.

The problem isnt there are images in existence somewhere of sexualized women its that its the default regardless of who the intended audience is or what the context is. To the point where a women not being sexualized and fetishsized is a refreshing rare take. Men in general don't have this problem. They aren't usually sexualized by default so them being sexualized once in some movie isnt the same as women being sexualized constantly.

So the problem with fanfic and fanart was that this one type of medium where mlm weren't the minority where there was alot of content in many fandoms and where it was the popular content, was also the media where mlm being sexualized was becoming the default. Not that there were sexualized mlm sometimes for certain types of stories or art ( like erotica) but that it was becoming basically the default. Now I will say this stood out more for mlm specifically because men regardless of sexual orientation weren't sexualized by default in non fandom content.

Consider how canon mlm romances or moments were depicted compared to canon wlw romances and moments. So imo we noticed far more and called out alot more fetishization of mlm in fandom than wlw. Because we were so used to the sexualization of women it stood out less.

But still it was good mlm being sexualized didn't become the default in fandom. However the take away seems to have somehow become any mlm or wlw chatacter being sexual and being depicted as sexual is immediately problematic. But that scrutiny is never directed nearly as much towards m/w couples.

And tbh thats true for literally any thing in shipping in fandom mlm and wlw relationships that can be considered problematic on any level are scrutinized so much more than their mlw counterparts unless of course the mlw ship includes someone bipoc.

I remember like 5-7 years ago when misogyny was being called out in fandom especially in shipping culture was becoming more of a thing and I always had to side eye how people so often only used examples of a straight white couple being unpopular as the example. And it was always the straight white couple being unpopular that seemed to get people to call misogyny while couples including bipoc and/or wlw never got that same energy.

Even the few people who actually gave a shit bout sexism and didnt just want to make it problematic to like ships more popular than their otp cared mostly about the depictions of ships between a white guy and white girl in fandom. They spent little to no energy and woc or wlw.

And now it just seems white m/w ships are the easiest and least drama filled things to ship ( by comparison to mlm or wlw ships) unless its so unpopular that its irrelevant or still very new. I don't think thats a coincidence.

You make a lot of great points about how people are sexualized in media and how the fans react/run with what they see.

(Gonna put the rest under the cut since it's long on both sides)

I will say comic books, their movies, and their shows are one of the few places where men are as equally sexualized as women, on top of the intense pressure put on male actors' bodies to have these scenes, though for them the fantasy is intended for male audiences to see and go don't you wish you had a body like theirs unlike for them to see an actress' body with her intense regime and think don't you wish you had them for yourself. The comparison between how a character is drawn in comics and their actor being unable to achieve that extremely unrealistic body is humanizing to the characters. Think that example that comes by your dash now and then of Jackman in male-targeted magazines versus Jackman in female-targeted magazines, and how you can see that reflected in fandom spaces. Since fandoms are often majority women, a lot of modern m/m ships are wanting the softer side of guys based on how they treat each other, and many m/f canon ships are written with little thought past "man kisses woman during/after big battle". I think this is why a lot of audiences when they pick a favorite m/f ship out of Marvel films, it happens to be Steve with Natasha or Wanda with Vision, where they develop a proper relationship beyond if they kiss around a battle.

And we are moving out of the "mlm in film are heavily sexualized" time of media. It's hard to pinpoint when it started, but it's been moving away from it for years. Would like to note that I think this has more to do with mlm films are not always being slapped with the R rating as they used to. Harder for wlw where sexualized women are still considered more taboo, or even straight films with female sexuality shown with her enjoying it.

However I will say there is still a heavy layer of misogyny in fandom towards women if there are any m/f pairings. Remember how people said people tolerated Steve with Peggy because she was considered his past? And then when they were the final couple, people turned on that ship and in turn those shippers? And I've seen people jump through hoops to prove that any woman Bucky flirts with has to be a lesbian so that the ship gets shot down in canon in their own minds because they are afraid of canon validating a ship that interrupts their own. Plus the posts of him needing to be possessive over Sam because Sharon checked him out in episodes 3 and 6, even though this is the only character to have shown any kind of interest in Sam and he never even reciprocated? Fandom misogyny isn't as strong as it might have been, say, five years ago, but it's still heavy in mlm shipping culture.

~Mod R

4 notes · View notes

ofdreamsanddoodles · 3 years

Note

if you don't mind me asking, how do you deal with consuming content with 'problematic' aspects? for example, i see you reblog posts criticizing things like racism in tma, and you can still make content while being able to recognize those things. it's hard for me to continue enjoying something when it has even 1 thing slightly bad in it, but i know that's not a healthy way to consume content. is there anything you keep in mind when interacting with a given series? u don't need to answer ❤️ ty

also a note on my ask -- of course you don't need to answer, and you aren't a therapist & etc. i just admire your ability to both recognize flaws in works but still enjoy them, and thought since you seem to have critical thinking skills you might have a perspective that you could offer. being on tumblr from a young age seems to have affected my ability to separate things in my mind, lol. thanks so much for reading even if you don't feel comfortable answering.

I mean... you’ve kind of answered your own question? The only way to consume media is to remember that everything has flaws. My brother came by while I was typing this up and told me the answer is to “just vibe” because everyone is more or less terrible in one aspect or another but obviously, that’s not the answer you’re looking for.

I guess the short answer is just... you have to learn how to trust your own set of morals and understand that you shouldn’t feel guilty if a story you like betrays you. And yes, that’s hard, especially when you grow up surrounded by very rigid rules on what’s “okay” to watch, but if you’re just looking for some tips, here’s a list that I hope will help:

Find people you trust and see what they think of the situation. Think about whether or not they’re coming from an informed place. A friend of mine asked me if I knew about a Jewish tradition a while back. I had no idea what they were talking about. Turns out, it was something popular with German Jews. None of my family is from Germany. Sometimes, just being Jewish doesn’t mean I’m the right person to ask.

Find people who are complaining & see why they’re upset. Think about who is annoyed by this and how many of them there are. Think about what they think the proper response is, if any. Think about whether you have the right to wave off their concerns. Think about how those concerns are treated, both in-fandom and by creators. I saw a lot of people in the tma tag complaining about twitter “overreacting” to MAG 185, but if Jonny felt the need to issue an apology and specifically say that he realizes he’s crossed a line, chances are, the complaints were probably warranted (a thing I’d like to add is that apparently, RQ also issued an apology for a fluff episode they released, which I thought was kind of silly, because the episode was essentially just joking about martin forgetting a word. But also, as a neurodivergent person who sometimes struggles with speech, I do understand why that might upset people. not all apologies have to about incredibly important topics, but even the ones who aren’t show a lot about the cast behind it. Alternatively, if RQ had only apologized for this episode, and not MAG 185, that also says a lot about where there priorities are, and what fans they care about keeping)

Think about what will happen if you continue watching/reading etc. It’s not so much “is it okay if I keep watching this?” but “if I continue to watch this, will I convince myself that this problematic aspect isn’t actually a big deal? Is it so ingrained in the show that I can’t watch an episode without seeing the problems in it? What will I say to others, if they want to watch this?” For example, if someone sees you’ve reblogged a scene from a show you like and asks what it’s about, how many excuses are you going to give? How many trigger warnings are there, and can you justify them? There’s a difference between a piece of media having a character say homophobic slurs, and a piece of media saying a gay person should have homophobic slurs thrown at them. Also: If you think you cant justify getting someone else interested, you probably shouldn’t justify contributing to the show. This might be obvious, but there’s a very big difference in pirating a tv show and buying its merch.

Think about the fandom. If you continue talking about this, who are you surrounding yourself with? Like, there are a LOT of weirdos making content for kids shows, but that doesn’t always mean the show itself is weird. What it does mean, though, is that you should be careful navigating your enjoyment. Sometimes, the only way to enjoy something is to talk about it with a select few friends. Sometimes, it’s to enjoy it by yourself. I do believe it’s possible to enjoy a show in spite of the canon, but at the same time, if you’re watching a show that’s attracting a lot of racists, think about why that might be.

some more thoughts under the cut, because I already wrote them out before I realized I could just make a list.

The thing about consuming media is that it’s very subjective. I know a lot of people who have given up on tma recently and while that’s not wholly because it’s “problematic,” it definitely plays a part in it. People have different meters for what they can excuse in media. The important thing to remember is WHY they left, and if you’re able to keep that in your mind while also continuing to engage in contact with the media. Will you be able to remember that Daisy traumatized Jon more than any other avatar if you consume context calling her Basira’s hot murderwife? Can you talk about the Flesh and acknowledge the racism in the creation of the Haans?

Personally, I don’t think you can produce positive content about Daisy and also acknowledge the harm she causes. You can’t point at a character and say, yes, she has committed actual police brutality, but I think she deserves a cute lesbian romance anyway. That’s not really a thing tma has done wrong as much as it is a problem with the fandom, but like, at the end of the day, it’s all just a matter of critical thinking. Who is being hurt by these portrayals of the characters? How? Most of the problems with tma aren’t things that are, like, baked into the actual worldbuilding and for a lot of people, that’s enough for them to still justify making content for the show.

If your complaints sound like “oh, if only they didn’t do xy, this would make for a good show,” then you’re probably fine. But if it goes into “i like this, but only if I can ignore (major plot point)” think about why you feel the need to keep watching. There are shows I’ve stopped watching based on principle. There’s manga I read that I only talk about with my brother and no one else, because I don’t want to be exposed to the fans. It doesn’t have to be as simple as “well, this artist did a bad thing, so now I’m going to ignore it forever.” If you think the creators of something are bad people, don’t support them. You can still pirate it or whatever, but if it’s something like hetalia, where the point of the show is just “let’s put all these stereotypes in a room and see how they react” then yes, for your own sake, you should stop watching because this is how stereotypes become normalized, and no one should be consuming media where nazi germany as the protagonist.

Really, at the end of the day, it’s just a matter of becoming media literate and that’s a process that takes time. Remember that being interested in something that isn’t 100% doesn’t make you a bad person, and listen to the people around you. Try and be a safe space for the people who do have complaints and remember not to place your enjoyment of something over the comfort of others. Other than that, just... do your best, I guess?

#this is far much more detail than you asked for i think but thats what you get for coming to me #asks #apologies if this took a while to answer i worked all day and needed some me time before i could tackle this #Anonymous

19 notes · View notes