#anti spike

[becomingbuffypodcast]

Who get the biggest passes from Buffyverse fans and can you give examples of the worst things these characters do?

Well this is a juicy question.

Spike, and Cordelia.

Interestingly, at some point, both characters were given the role of calling Buffy out on her "crap." James Marsters even talks about how he was brought in as a replacement for Cordelia in season 4, but then was replaced by Anya when they decided to do something else with him.

With Cordy being the mean girl, and Spike the soulless vampire, the writers had the freedom to use these characters to say and do some incredibly cruel things towards Buffy in the name of "brutal honesty," while also excusing their behavior because they weren't meant to be the hero...at least initially.

This worked a little too well, as Charisma and James were amazing in their roles. Each character is charming, beautiful, multifaceted, and extremely funny.

The problem is, you can't keep your characters stagnate, so the writers were forced to give Cordy and Spike character growth, but also find a way to retain who they are. This is incredibly difficult when your character was literally written to clash with Buffy, and is popular for saying mean, biting things in the name of "tough love."

-Cordelia-

While Queen C is more than the resident mean girl, her cruel words and selfish behavior are praised as "truth" and confidence, with her belittling nearly every member of the Scooby gang. She is constantly pitting herself against Buffy; (Homecoming, Halloween, etc) demeaning and belittling her when Buffy has personally saved her life several times. She begins to show signs of character growth in season 3, but once Xander cheats on her, reverts right back to blaming Buffy for everything. Instead of holding Xander accountable for his actions, she makes a wish that Buffy never came to Sunnydale, and then never sees the consequences for her own actions.

Even after her move to LA, she calls Buffy a cry-Buffy, blames her for turning Angel into Angelus, emasculates Wesley, victim blames and shames a SA survivor (Untouched), and is generally just careless about what she says or does, with no thought about how her words effect others.

Personally, while I do see some growth over her time on Angel, I do not buy her characterization in the later seasons where she is drastically changed to become a Champion, and then shoe-horned into a relationship with Angel. On top of that, she never atones for or even recognizes her need to change for her awful behavior, and that makes it very hard for me to forgive her for her past sins, let alone root for her.

It's possible that with better writing and without Joss being a horrible person, that her transition would have been more organic and believable.

-Spike-

For a show about feminism, the writers really spend a lot of time on this man. He steals Buffy's underwear, stalks her, makes a sex robot that looks just like her, attempts to kill her multiple times, boasts about killing and torturing other slayers, justifies it by saying they wanted it, ties her up, then spends a season belittling her just so that she'll sleep with him. THEN when she refuses sex with him, attempts to force himself on her.

And for those of you who say, "oh he just didn't have a soul yet." Fine.

After he had a soul, he boasts about assaulting her, shames her for using him for sex when he knew she didn't love him, shames her for not loving him, and blames her for the reason he's tortured with having a soul. (Beneath You)

He nearly kills Robin Wood, and then mocks him for not being loved by his mother (which is proven to be false in "Damage"), all while wearing the coat that he stole from Robin's mother after he killed her.

Not once does he apologize to Buffy or attempt to hold himself accountable, even after he has a soul. It is not until "Damage" on Angel that we see any sort of unselfish remorse.

Then to add insult to injury, season 7 has Buffy spending so much time taking care of Spike, rescuing Spike, training with Spike, reassuring Spike that he is a good man...all to the detriment of her other relationships. People like to blame the Potentials for why season 7 is as clunky as it is, but I blame the focus on Spike.

Even worse, the show doesn't seem to want Spike to change, as there's hardly a difference between pre souled and ensouled Spike. And that goes against the show's core tenant of choice and growth.

From the very beginning, vampires represent the opposite of adolescence in that they are stagnate and do not change. "Fool for Love" very clearly establishes that Spike's persona is created to compensate for his lack of an identity. Cecily's rejection of him deeply wounds him and he is shown to create a facade to mask his insecurities. So he takes from powerful women and forms a false identity around them to prove that he is not beneath them. The episode emphasizes this pattern with Cecily, Dru, and the two Slayers, continuing in present day with Buffy.

In order to be consistent with the lore and message of the show, ensouled Spike needed to look a lot different from un-ensouled Spike, but the writers knew he wouldn't be as popular.

And so we're left with a half baked season where we're supposed to believe that Buffy is distant from everyone but Spike, who looks the exact same as he did the season before when he tried to force himself on her.

It's just icky. It's the opposite of empowering. It blurs the lines of the lore. And it sends the wrong message.

We can like these characters and even root for them, but we need to be honest about their flaws, and not justify awful writing and problematic characterization.

#buffy summers #buffy the vampire slayer #buffy btvs #tv: btvs #buffy watching #becomingbuffypodcast #sarah michelle gellar #alyson hannigan #buffy anne summers #btvs s5 #anti spuffy #anti spike #anti cordelia #bangel #buffy and angel #buffythevampireslayer #not really anti #i dont hate them

[aquaristintern]

Looking at a lot of Loustat shippers and how they view/talk about Louis, is making me think of the BtVS fandom, the first fandom I joined when I was 16/17.

Anyway, a lot of the Spuffy shippers were out there calling Buffy derogatory names, saying SHE was the actual abusive one in the relationship, writing the most vile essays/fanfiction about her needing to be brought down a peg and admit she was wrong and Spike was right, saying the show was boring without Spike, despite Buffy being the main character, could not talk about Buffy as a character separate from Spike, propping up James's acting skills over Sarah's, made it sound like Spike was a better parent to Dawn than Buffy was (?), saying that the other men she was in romantic relationships with were much more abusive than Spike, excusing Spike for basically all of his actions and woobifying him because of his trauma....

and then you'd have the more critical Spuffy/non-Spuffy shippers (mainly woc) pointing out the blatant misogyny and victim-blaming in this way of thinking, pointing out how Spike represents some of the worst aspects of racism and the patriarchy, both textually and subtextually, even providing scholarly articles and literature to back up their claims, and asking why do you even ship Spuffy if you hate Buffy? Which of course received extreme backlash and harassment from people racing to defend Spike themselves, saying, no of course they didn't hate Buffy, but Spike is more complex than you're making him sound, and no he's not a racist or hates women, he's actually a feminist and a punk/anarchist and doesn't kill based on race, you're just a vile sjw and an anti who loves ruining everyone else's fun.

Anyway. Why do you even ship Loustat if you hate Louis?

#lol they also called spike the woman in the relationship too if i remember correctly #louis receives the same treatment as a woman does...both in fandom and in the show much to think about #the woobification of evil blonde men and the vilification of their women pipeline #with that villification of louis even more amplified because he's now a poc! #buffy summers #louis de pointe du lac #btvs discourse #buffy the vampire slayer #iwtv discourse #interview with the vampire #fandom racism #anti lestat de lioncourt #anti spike #to be safe #and yes...i was a spuffy shipper 😭luckily with some critical thinking skills #but yeah..louis and buffy apparently are boring and bad and are soooo hopeless without their men and you can't talk about them #without bringing up their men up like idk maybe you don't like them as much as you think you do!!!

[lecoindecachou]

Buffy was only ever with Spike because she was trying to hurt herself, he was 100% a symptom of her depression post-coming back from the dead and it's canon that she never loved him, y'all can die mad about it.

#anti spuffy #anti spike #buffy the vampire slayer #buffy summers #you can tell most spuffy shippers don't even like her #they're just spike fangirls who use her as a masturbatory self-insert #and constantly insult her for being 'mean' and 'a bitch' to their blorbo

[angelustheimmortal]

Buffy fans when Warren makes sex robots, rapes, acts entitled to sex= what an awful misogynist.

Buffy fans when Spike makes sex robots, rapes, acts entitled to sex and murders women-poor little wooobie Spike. Why doesn't his rape victim do more to make people forgive him.

#anti spike #anti spuffy

[buffysummers]

I accidentally ran into some discourse on twitter about how terrible the scoobies were to buffy in empty places and I agree with that but then people started going on about how spike was the only one to ever have buffy's back and the only who understood her and that he was better than her friends/giles/dawn ever were. I just feel like that isn't true and framing spike as buffy's protector feels wrong after season 6. and also, people somehow claim that angel would have sided with the scoobies

First of all, Angel would have NEVER sided with the Scoobies lol. He would have understood the immense amount of pressure Buffy is under being the leader and he would've given her the grace she needed to sort that out. Also, Angel is quite literally always on Buffy's side. There's only one instance where he isn't, but the circumstances are special. I don't really feel like going into those circumstances because they aren't relevant to this ask but if anyone is interested feel free to send another ask.

But Spike never truly understood Buffy. For so long, he saw her as The Slayer, a conquest. A woman that he needed to overpower, control, and "break" to make himself feel adequate and like a man. Then once he "fell in love" with her, that honestly didn't change much. It was all about winning her approval and acceptance so that he could have her. She was always some kind of prize to him, a prize that was majorly tied up in his self-worth and mommy issues.

Season seven is frustrating for a lot of reasons, but when it tried to trick me into thinking Spike really knew Buffy and that they were so close and had all these long talks I was just like.... where? I know that things can happen offscreen, but considering what we saw of their relationship in season six (and how they literally never talked), we needed to see more of these supposed conversations that they had. Mind you, I have no interest in seeing these conversations, but from a narrative perspective, we NEEDED it. The writing was just so weak.

I think Spike understood, to some degree, the allure of being The Slayer and having power rooted in darkness. But Faith understood that better, and Angel *also* understood that. He is not special.

Whenever Spike told Buffy he understood her, it was merely a tactic he used to manipulate her into having sex with him. He NEVER understood her. He simply weaponized her self-loathing from the insane amount of grief and pain she was going through after she was brought back to life.

As for what you said about people saying Spike always had Buffy's back, I talk about that a lot here.

#twitter is the worst lol #anonymous #answered #anti spuffy #anti spike

[buffy-targaryen]

Interesting to me that someone would call Angel a basic white man who didn’t deserve his redemption or his own show whilst also propping up Sponge as some sort of hero who is deserving of his redemption and own show and-

I’m just saying there’s a hypocrisy there is all 🙄

#my thoughts #I shouldn’t go into tags and notes on posts #I’m not in a good enough mood to deal with the double standards of spiffies today #anti spike #anti spuffy

[becomingpart2]

That post got me thinking about Spike's role in btvs (and the buffyverse) and how "unprecedented" or "revolutionary" he was within that universe. Here's what I came up with:

Spike wasn't the first vampire to be shown as more than a mindless killer that existed only to be staked. That was Angel in S1. The existence of the soul complicated the vampire lore in a way that was new and unimaginable to the Scoobies (and to the audience) at the time.

Spike wasn't the first vampire to get a soul. That would be Angel and then Darla. (Reminder that it was only after he got a soul that he was seen as a viable option for and by Buffy on the show).

Spike wasn't the first vampire to die and be brought back. That would be Angel and then Darla again.

Spike wasn't the first vampire to fall in love with the slayer.

Spike wasn't the first "bad guy" to get a redemption arc. That would be Faith.

Spike wasn't the first ally/enemy/ally to tempt Buffy to join "the dark side". That would be Faith.

Spike wasn't the first lovable asshole/comic relief who the Scoobies tolerated to have around. That would be Cordelia. And Anya if we're talking demons who were at the time harmless. She joined the Scoobies even before Spike did, back in S4.

Spike wasn't the first vampire or the only person who Buffy felt she could be vulnerable with or share feelings she wouldn't share with anybody else. That was Angel (Ted in S2; Helpless in S3; Forever in S5, to name a few).

So yeah.

#btvs #spike #anti spike #i guess #angel #ats #i mean yeah JM is an very good and charismatic actor #I'm sure that had to do with what kept him on the show for so long #but to say he changed the whole lore is a bit of s stretch to say the least #he didn't change the lore - the bend him in numerous directions and patchworked previous characters and storylines to make him fit in #in the existent prevalent lore

[liam-summers]

Why do you think people feel sorry for souless Spike in destiny? I think that is the intent but honestly it makes no sense to me. He meets Angelus, is immediately delighted harming innocent people (despite Souled Spike making out he was slowly corrupted) and smiles when he thinks Drusilla is a bride Angelus is raping ("had your fill of her") but i should pity him because his girlfriend cheated?

I think people feel sorry for Spike because they take everything that Spike says as the absolute truth, and Spike likes to paint himself in a very sympathetic light, even when the story is showing us something completely different. The main examples of this are “Fool for Love” and “Darla”, two episodes showing similar events from two different POV’s (Spike’s and the show simply showing events that occurred in flashbacks) and each POV telling a slightly different story. Spike is shown to be an unreliable narrator repeatedly.

Ensouled Spike has a tendency to avoid taking responsibility for the things he did when he didn’t have a soul and believes that the act of having a soul automatically absolves him of all those things. Spike in general has a very skewed and self involved view of the world and the people around him. He’s an incredibly insecure and pathetic person, both as a human and as a vampire, and he projects those insecurities onto the world around him and other people because he can’t stand to deviate from the persona that he’s build for himself as a coping mechanism for those insecurities.

I believe Angelus played a role in influencing Spike when he became a vampire, just as Darla influenced Angelus and Drusilla influenced Spike and Angel and Darla influenced Drusilla, but just as your examples pointed out, Spike relished in this the same way they all did. He was turned into a vampire and he was evil and he enjoyed doing evil things, it’s literally that simple. Also, Spike only spend about 18 years with Angelus and over 100 years without Angelus, so idk how Angelus is responsibly for all of the monstrous things Spike did. That makes absolutely no sense. Soulless Spike made choices to do evil things just like he made choices to do “good” things (for selfish reasons because he was obsessed with Buffy and because he had a chip preventing him physically doing harm to anyone).

I think the point of the flashbacks in “Destiny” was to show us that Spike has centuries of resentment toward Angel and that’s what was driving him to fight harder to take the Shanshu away from Angel, because he felt he deserved it because he was wronged. This isn’t anything out of the ordinary for Spike, as he’s shown to have this sense of entitlement and victim mentality since before he was even turned into a vampire. He felt entitled to Cecily because HE had feelings for her and he felt he was a good man who deserved her love, he felt entitled to Drusilla because HE saw her as his destiny (see becoming part 2 also), he felt entitled to Buffy because HE was obsessed with her and HE did all these things for her (that she never asked for), he also in a way felt entitled to have his mother forever when he turned her into a vampire and then staked her when she didn’t react to him the way he wanted her to. It’s a pattern and a core trait of Spike’s personality.

I think ultimately people feel sorry for Spike because they view him as the underdog, because that’s how he views himself, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that that’s what the show is telling us about him.

#ask #angelustheimmortal #anti spike #anti spuffy

[spangelmybeloved]

Honestly, I might like Spuffy as a ship more if they'd handled season 5 differently.

Like. I get he's a soulless demon. He's gonna do creepy things. I get it.

What I don't get is this: why would Buffy ever go for Spike after everything he did (steal her underwear, build a sex robot of her, Crush--yeah, the entire episode Crush, etc).

Ok. Moving on from that.

I don't like Spike in season five.

There. I said it.

I really hate Crush with a burning passion (well, maybe not with a burning passion, but it's certainly lukewarm.) I can't say that about many BtVS episodes, even the usual suspects, like Bad Eggs, I don't hate, but I don't like crush. The only good thing about that episode is getting to see beloved Dru. Oh, and then there's the whole thing with the Buffybot. I don't hate the Buffybot, it's not her fault she was created the way she was. Why do I hate that little plotline? It feels like a gross violation of Buffy, and to be honest, the Buffybot wasn't programmed to be a girlfriend. She's programmed to be a sex toy who worships the ground Spike walks on. To be fair, some of that could have been Warren's programming, but it's hard to know. I would have been (only slightly) more comfy with the Buffybot if she was more of a girlfriend and less of a sex toy. And the sheer amount of people I see defending Spike for making the bot, talking about how it's romantic and shows that he loves her. Mmmkay. You're entitled to your opinion.

Don't get me wrong, I love Spike to death. But in S5 I kinda want to smack him sometimes.

#btvs #meta #anti spuffy #anti spike #im not anti spike and im not really anti spuffy but tagging as such so as not to make people mad

[allthebestcowboyshavedaddyissues]

Returning the favour! 1, 7, and 24 😈

thank you !!!

the character everyone gets wrong: I also won't say angel here because that's my knee-jerk reaction. So I'll go with my unappreciated favs: Connor and Gunn. Connor is manipulated from... before Darla and Angel even conceived him. Connor is annoying, but I can't bring myself to hate some kid who's been used by forces time after time. People bring up Cordy's body violation but Connor was also, in a grander scheme. His entire arc with Angel makes me rip my hair out and sob. They deserved better. Gunn is just underappreciated by the show time and time again, and I loved him and Fred. I thought they were sweet and healthy, and they breathed so much heart into the show.

what character did you begin to hate not because of canon but because how how the fandom acts about them?

Spike. I will never not hate the BuffyBot plot. Or all of season 6. And season 7. He was PERFECT with Dru and him and Buffy as frenemies was so much fun in s4 because he was still a shitty person and obviously a villain still. Which is exactly what I loved about him to begin with.

topic that brings up the most rancid discourse:

.....Seeing Red. Sorry it did in fact happen and you can't just pretend it didn't because JM hated filming it. I'm pretty sure SMG probably hated it also? Whedon has pretty shitty misconduct allegations but I don't think that should take away from the scene being part of the show. Just because it's awful doesn't mean you should ignore it or act like it never happened to suit your narrative.

for the violence ask game

#asks #thank you so much! #anti spike #anti spuffy

[keanherself]

Smashed

I have avoided this episode for years, probably over a decade. But I wish I hadn't because there is truly nothing more affirming of how ugly Sp***y is than this episode. God, it practically spells it out for you.

I'll more than likely have a more coherent thoughts on this at the end of the season. I do have to say that the claim that Buffy led Spike on has never been more infuriating to me.

She told him no in so many different ways in this ep alone that I lost track (I will go back and "take" track though, because it matters). She said no over and over and he kept coming back, wearing her down and then when she was most vulnerable he used her fear that she was fundamentally wrong as a means to push her over the edge.

#Rewatch for the fic #Anti spike #anti spuffy #BTVS 6x09 #It's especially wtf watching this when I've just finished S1 of Big Little Lies #Because so much of the Perry X Celeste dynamic is here #Ugly ugly ugly

[buffysummers]

spike is a raging misogynist and it all dates back to his mommy issues, very similar to joss whedon himself. spike IS a joss insert, in the same way that xander is, except spike is able to express joss’s more violent urges and tendencies toward women because he’s a vampire. I just wish y’all would accept the truth and stop trying to bully and brainwash people into thinking spike is some sort of hero/feminist icon. like be serious.

#anti spike #anti joss whedon #like stfu #if you reblog this defending either I am BLOCKING you without a second thought #I'm so tired

[buffy-targaryen]

Say what you like about J*** W***** but he left the end of Buffy wide open for a really good spin off featuring brand new slayers and watchers etc etc etc. So why is there a goddamn au with every character except Buffy coming out instead 😒

#my thoughts #btvs #buffy summers #buffy the vampire slayer #no Buffy no angel no willow no Faith no Giles no dawn #no Xander which… eh #I’m not so bothered about Cordelia as a Slayer #because I always liked the theory she was a potential who was never called #but I’m going to be honest #i really wish they would leave fucking spike out of it #why won’t he die 😭 #anti spike #anti spuffy #just in case

[angelustheimmortal]

Spike's speech in destiny is the biggest load of bollocks i ever heard from a character. Fist of all why would Angelus ever want someone to be as evil as him? That's litterally the last thing he'd want. Secondly Spike doesn't show any moral objections in the flahbacks. He laughs about Angelus beating a man to death and that is before Angelus does anything to corrupt him. Thirdly Penn was influenced by Angelus too and didn't end up the second worst recorded vampire in history so William must have been a sack of crap according to fan logic and Penn must be the better person. Fourthly Spike if you are going to go round acting like your soul absolves you then it also absolves Angel.

#anti spike #anti spuffy

[liam-summers]

Sp*ke in season 7 repeatedly throwing the fact that he got a soul for Buffy in her face anytime she confronts him about anything, ever, and expecting her to fall to her knees with gratitude and awe over his grand gesture that she never asked for, while simultaneously acting like he was the victim the entire time in their “relationship”

Me, if only I could get my hands on him:

#and people will claim this is so romantic and noble #sorry how is what Sp*ke is doing here not manipulative and the very definition of guilt tripping? #my guy YOU PLAYED YOURSELF #Buffy doesn’t owe you anything!!!!! #anti spuffy #anti spike

[becomingpart2]

Hot take: angelus aged better than spike.

Unapologetic and gleefully evil man that is unaware or unwilling to admit his own vulnerability/humanity and chooses to destroy the world instead is a much more interesting character today than the unwilling "antihero" woobie that imposes his vulnerabilities onto women.

#btvs #angelus #anti spike