#iroh critical

[clown-cult]

I think my favourite thing from the new avatar show so far is that they make it unavoidably clear that Iroh is a war criminal. Yes, he was brought up to believe in the propaganda he supported and fought for, he’s suffered great personal loss, has learned from that and he’s a changed man, but he was once the scariest person in the world. A butcher, as one character says.

Whoever wrote that looked at all the Iroh worship that the comics and other material from the animated show gave us over the last few years and took personal issue with that and I love them for it.

Someone saw Azula and especially Ozai get billed as just evil from birth while the rest of the family never did anything bad ever and decided to address that by expanding on everyone’s experiences.

So, say what you will about the show, but shoutout to whoever it was that decided to remind everyone that Iroh is a beloved character because of his complexity and past flaws, and just how severe those past flaws are.

#atla #avatar the last airbender #iroh critical #I guess that’s the right tag #I still love uncle Iroh #but I am critical too #atla rewatch #atla live action #atla spoilers

[akiizayoi4869]

Had some thoughts about Iroh and Azula earlier. I'm sure we all remember this scene, right?

Now, this post isn't about how Iroh was wrong for giving her that look and being suspicious and on edge around her when he hasn't seen Azula for 3 years. He actually was right to be suspicious, precisely BECAUSE of that fact. They had no contact for 3 years, and suddenly she shows up out of the blue. That would make anyone rightfully suspicious. But again, that's not what this post is about. This is about the fact that the last time Iroh saw Azula, Ozai had burned Zuko's face. Showing Iroh that he wasn't above harming his children if it suited him. Azula was alone with Ozai for 3 years. Who knows what happened to her during that time frame. And yet, Iroh shows no concern for her well being whatsoever. Doesn't ask how she's been doing all this time or anything like that. Just greets her with disdain. Like. That's just seriously chilling and fucked up. And I didn't even notice this until now. And for someone like Iroh's character, and the way how he is with Zuko? All caring and loving? That just...does not make sense as a writing choice. At all.

Why I think his relationship with Azula, or rather lack there of, is portrayed this way, is because the writers were so focused on making Azula into this badass villain who could even make Iroh of all people be on his guard around her, that they forgot that she was also his niece. Someone who was also in desperate need of help, just like Zuko was. Someone who needed love just like Zuko did. And yet we never see Iroh even attempt to extend that to her at all. The fact that even Aaron Ehasz came out and admitted that the way they wrote Iroh when it came to Azula didn't match how the portrayed his character overall further proves this theory.

#atla #azula #zuko #iroh #iroh critical

[songazula]

my question is this: why do atla stans care more about an 11 year old azula's reaction to ozai burning zuko than what iroh did or could've done at that moment?

#azula #zuko #iroh critical #atla #avatar the last airbender

[anonymous-gambito]

"Zuko's biggest mistake was not listening to everything Iroh said"

If he did that he would've been captured by earth kingdom soldiers and been poisoned by a plant, at the least

#atla #zuko #iroh critical

[evilprincesss]

what iroh should have been, and how it would've impacted zuko and azula's arcs

in terms of canon atla, aside from my criticisms of the orientalism woven into the show's fabric, its pattern of telling not showing, the tumor-like presence of filler episodes that don't do enough as character studies or dynamic studies (mostly in book 3; in book 1 i'm more forgiving of these since atla was still finding its groove), and my issues with zuko's redemption arc not challenging his political beliefs in a meaningful way, the thing that i would consider its biggest failure writing-wise is the fact that iroh is not intentionally portrayed as a morally gray character.

the thing about iroh is that he is a longtime war criminal. they try to soft retcon some of that in book 3 by making his nickname "the dragon of the west" about him pretending to have hunted the dragons into extinction and by making him a part of the white lotus, but this to me is not only grievously boring but also a waste of his character.

i understand why the idea of iroh as little more than zuko's loving, wise, and kooky uncle makes people happy. it means zuko gets to have a father figure who loves him unconditionally and makes him feel safe. that's a lovely concept! but not a very interesting one in terms of the narrative, nor is it one congruent with iroh's initial characterization.

think of the absolute contempt and terror he struck into those earthbenders who tried to arrest him in book 1. think of the fact that he besieged ba sing se for 600 days straight well into his adulthood (his age is unclear, but i'd presume he's somewhere in his mid to late 50s throughout atla, so he would at youngest in his 40s when he lead the siege of ba sing se). think of the fact that iroh only changed his mind about his very active part in the war as a grown man once his son was killed. think of the fact that iroh spent 3 years with zuko in exile without ever once actively making a real effort to help zuko unlearn the fire nation propaganda he was indoctrinated with from birth or to truly help him understand that ozai abused him. think of the fact that the white lotus didn't really do much of anything throughout the war to end it.

what picture do these facts paint? is it really that of a reformed war criminal? no, not really.

iroh loves zuko unconditionally. he is patient and kind and loving with zuko. i don't think there's much, if any, room to argue with that. i am not denying that to zuko, iroh is a loving, wise, and kooky uncle.

however, i am saying that iroh is multifaceted. he is zuko's loving, wise, and kooky uncle, and he is also a war criminal who, despite the show telling us has reformed his ways, is not shown to have done so in any meaningful way. he does not do much to help zuko to unlearn imperialist propaganda, does not do much to discourage zuko from trying to capture the avatar, and does not do much at all to end the war.

this makes for an incredibly interesting and dynamic character! this is a character who believes that his personal kindness absolves him of his heinous political misdeeds. that is why he does not do anything meaningful to challenge imperialism where he sees it. that is why he is also a kind, loving man. he's hugely flawed, but he also has virtues that make you want him to overcome his flaws! there is so much room for him to develop whether its negatively or positively, and there is so much that can be done with the relationships he has, especially his relationship with zuko! furthermore, this is the summation of what the canon material overall most strongly presents us with.

but it's not how the narrative wants us to view iroh, so it's not how the narrative treats him.

instead, we are told that iroh is a reformed war criminal (and later even the notion that he was in the wrong for his military service to the fire nation is soft retconned) who is now nothing but a loving and supportive uncle to zuko. he's unfailingly kind to both zuko and the gaang, ty lee lets slip that she actually rather likes him despite azula's contempt of him to show us that ty lee is an antivillain who will be redeemed (despite her political beliefs never being actually challenged in a meaningful way), and really the only people iroh is unkind to or who dislike him are azula and ozai to highlight to the audience that they are villains.

this makes for an incredibly static character who essentially only exists to love zuko and act as his moral tether despite the fact that iroh never actually challenges zuko's political beliefs. iroh does not need to grow or develop within the narrative atla tells us exists. he has already done his self-reflection and repented for his behavior. he is a figure of moral authority. while this makes him feel safe and good to viewers who accept what atla tells them without question, in addition to not aligning with what's actually shown, it also makes him insanely bland from a narrative perspective.

but what if atla intentionally portrayed him as morally gray? what if they leaned into his shortcomings?

here's the thing about if iroh is intentionally portrayed as morally gray: zuko's redemption arc improves drastically, and azula's is given a much better opportunity to begin.

hear me out. if iroh is morally gray, then he is not solely there to show zuko what real, unconditional love looks like so that zuko can replace his abusive father with a loving father figure, giving him the strength to do the right thing and join the gaang. i'm not saying iroh no longer serves this function in the narrative; i'm saying that now that iroh does this, and his failure to meaningfully repent for his war crimes and to challenge imperialism creates conflict with zuko. you see, if iroh is morally gray, then his failure to challenge zuko's political beliefs (i.e. imperialism is good) is something that zuko is forced to reckon with throughout his redemption arc.

this would mean that zuko is finally actually challenged in his political beliefs as opposed to simply accepting that people are afraid of him because he is a destructive firebender/the prince and thus representative of the harm they have endured throughout the war. furthermore, it means that zuko has to go against a father figure who has treated him well, so his redemption is no longer a matter rooted in kindness but in moral conviction. zuko doesn't have to lose his love for iroh to do this; in fact, that would be a very boring way to portray this. it is far more interesting if zuko has the internal conflict of both loving his uncle and condemning him politically as he struggles to do the right thing in spite of that love.

the idea of zuko managing to grow beyond iroh and do the right thing even though it is hard, even though it means not only going against ozai's malice but also iroh's complicty, is one that would round zuko's arc out better.

it's also one that would open up the gates for an azula redemption arc a lot more than what canon does (although canon azula is still redeemable).

if zuko outgrows iroh enough to challenge his inaction, then he has outgrown iroh enough to start to really see his flaws.

one of zuko's main flaws in canon is that he has a very black and white way of thinking. this is a hugely defining flaw for him. it's why he struggled to accept that ozai abused him, why he struggled to see that his pursuit of the avatar and thus the war as a whole was wrong, why he got physically ill when he was confronted with the fact that he was harming people, etc.

but if zuko starts to see that iroh's inaction as a flaw despite the fact that iroh loves him so sincerely and is so kind to most everyone, then he can start to break this black and white thinking. like ozai, iroh is no longer on a pedestal in zuko's mind. this would lead to the unearthing of more of iroh's flaws.

in conjunction with the fact that zuko has now seen proof of azula's pain (her psychotic break in the last agni kai), this means that zuko can start to place blame where its due with people over her pain.

i am under no delusions about the state of zuko's relationship with azula in canon. i've expanded on my thoughts about the love between them here if you'd like to see them, but i can sum it up as so: while azula cares about zuko in her own deeply screwed up way, zuko doesn't really care about azula because he is shortsighted and struggles to empathize with her or even see a need to.

however, seeing proof that azula has been harmed too means that zuko would finally see a reason she is worthy of his empathy. the first, most obvious, and easiest to identify (for zuko) perpetrator is, of course, ozai. like with the war, ozai is clearly malicious. now that zuko has admitted and accepted that his father was abusive to him, it is much easier for him to admit that their father is responsible for azula's pain too. this much i believe is likely in canon as well.

the next person for zuko to look to, which can only happen if zuko has opened his eyes, is iroh. like with the war post 600 day siege, iroh was not malicious in his treatment of azula, but he was still complicit. iroh may not have abused azula, but he did neglect her entirely. he did not give her a chance to ever be anything but what ozai told her she should be. he did not show her love and compassion the way he did zuko. furthermore, he not only failed to encourage zuko to ever try doing so, he actively discouraged him from attempting to.

to be clear: i don't think zuko should be a mentor figure to azula during her redemption. like azula, he's just a kid. he's still growing and learning himself. he also doesn't really understand her at all, even if he has realized that she was hurt too. he doesn't understand how she was, and he's going to have to spend a lot of time reconciling the way their father's abuse colored his perception of her with how she actually is. furthermore, their relationship is complicated and full of pain for them both, so relying too heavily on it to help azula recover and redeem herself would end badly if we're being realistic.

but zuko seeing that azula was abused by their father and seeing that their uncle's failure to ever give her a chance to understand real love is crucial to him realizing that the asylum is not somewhere that gives her a real shot at recovery and redemption.

whether or not azula takes that shot when it's given to her is a more complicated story that would involve both zuko and azula having to reflect more wholly and honestly on ursa than i think either of them ever have before as well as some likely very painful conversations challenging the way she, like all other fire nation citizens, was indoctrinated, but do you see how interesting treating iroh as the morally gray character he is could be?

even if you don't want to see a redeemed azula (i personally do, but the possibility of her rejecting the idea of redemption is also quite fascinating and tragic in this context), zuko's arc and the commentary made about redemption and second chances overall are made so much more interesting and nuanced by this simple choice.

#atla #iroh critical #zuko #azula #fire hazard siblings #takes a while to get them since this is abt iroh's character and his role in the narrative #but we do get there

[jet-apologistmybadhomies]

coming out and saying 😔 AZULA WAS RIGHT ABOUT THIS

i understand! why iroh left but none of that truly makes it okay to waste everybodys time and LIFE like ppl DIED man and then he just backed out???

the only good thing out of this is ba sing se not falling

its why i am kinda "shy" to say this because it would suggest Something weird😭 but i swear i just think that iroh IS kinda weak for stopping a whole ass siege

dont get me wrong it makes irohs character so interesting and good but i am tried of ppl villianzing this Moment because "azula Shows no pity" ignoring that that is a CHILD who barely understands death in a way an adult does shes also right 😨

and i am really glad that the new Comic WILL make my point stronger since as for rn this more of a moral thing then anything

so yes iroh i get u. thats a horrible pain to have and i think thats the Moment where u understood that what your actions was doing this to other ppl

but i see no reason to hate characters who look down on him for leaving

(also pls read the tags)

#avatar the last airbender #atla #azula #iroh critical #i feel bad for saying this tbh #cuz i am not 100% on this opinion but i am tried that everytime i say kid azula wasn't bad someone mentions this #and i cant just say “well i agree it was a cowardy thing to do and not how a leader should act” #so this probs is gonna be a hot take that many will disagree with and yk what? thats completly fine i can see why u would disagree

[zuko-always-lies]

Iroh trying to use Azula as a weapon for his own agenda would be perfectly consistent with how the royal family operates.

#Azula #Iroh critical #Could use this in an Avatar! Azula AU

[rennelelorren]

Something I like more about live action is how Iroh and Zuko are portrayed.

Not only Iroh tried to step up for his nephew where og Iroh haven't, but he also not seems to be a part of white lotus. Maybe he knows about it, but not a part of the group yet.

And it was always my issue with Iroh in atla, him being in white lotus.

Bc him being one of the white lotus members mean that Iroh was never actually on the same side as Zuko (Zuko was actually alone in his quest from the start if you look at it this way). He used his nephew to connect with white lotus (Zuko`s banishment allowed them to be anywhere but fn, so that's def where Iroh get a lot/all his contacts), as well as giving them information behind Zuko`s back. And he also kinda helped gaang without actually helping them couple of times (the "I lost my lotus tile" or him being "suddenly" asleep when Aang escaped and much more) and left a his child to manage everything on his own (always ends bad). Lied to Zuko for years. And Zuko oblivious to all of this manipulations bc he loves Iroh (he literally blind to his faults the same way as Iroh to his).

But in natla Iroh kinda don't give a shit about how this war going to end, he just cares for Zuko and clinging on him as if his life depends on it. And I like it this way more.

#atla #avatar the last airbender #natla #avatar netflix #iroh #atla iroh #iroh critical #kinda? #zuko

[peregrinvs]

least favourite kind of character

#fandom salt #avatar salt #anti iroh #iroh critical #anti yoda #jedi critical #anti dumbledore

[number1villainstan]

As cool and intriguing and well-done as the Dai Li are, I can't help but feel that 'There is no war in Ba Sing Se' also just so happens to be an excellent method of sidestepping exploring or even considering the effect of Iroh's siege on BSS, at least in a way that makes Iroh look bad

#iroh critical #iroh #atla iroh #uncle iroh #atla #avatar: the last airbender #discourse #ba sing se #dai li

[fusionfanatic]

Unpopular opinion: Azula shouldn’t have to try to “repair” her relationships with Zuko or Iroh or Ursa in a hypothetical redemption arc or healing arc or whatever you want to call it.

The root of all of Azula’s trauma can be fundamentally traced back to her upbringing in the Fire Nation - the cultural norms she was socialised into and the people she was surrounded by. If that is the case, isn’t the most logical solution then to just simply escape? There are so many cases in which people that have had similar experiences to Azula, both in fiction and in real life, have left everything and everyone they ever knew behind… and guess what? They’re oftentimes so much better off because of it. Why? Because they’re not surrounded by that pain and suffering in their lives 24/7. They’re allowed to live. They’re allowed to breathe.

For their negligence as her caretakers, Iroh and Ursa should be the ones extending an olive branch to Azula. Whether she accepts this or not is entirely up to her. And if that answer happens to be ‘no’, then everyone should simply move on and learn to live independently of one another. As for Zuko, he is under no obligation to help her. Neither is Azula under any obligation to receive said ‘help’ in whatever form it might come in. Both him and Azula were both abused children and both are heavily traumatised as a result. And to be honest, Zuko desperately needs to embark on his own journey of self-healing as well.

Let Azula be her own person with her own agency Why should Azula’s actions be defined by her abusive family? Why should she have to accomodate her feelings and compromise her unique individuality for a family who were so wrapped up in their preconceptions and prejudices about her that they refused to afford her the love and care she so desperately needed? In my opinion, any type of redemption/healing arc for Azula that tries to take this route is inevitably going to reproduce the conditions which facilitated her abuse in the first place. Who would want that for a 14 year old child?

#avatar the last airbender #atla #atla azula #azula #princess azula #azula redemption #azula recovery #atla zuko #zuko #atla ursa #ursa #atla iroh #iroh #iroh critical

[witchzoe]

Iroh: *learns to firebend without hatred and aggression after being found worthy by the dragons*

Also Iroh: *Commits imperialistic violence against the Earth Kingdom for decades culminating in a 600 day siege of Ba Sing Se*

Truly an example of how firebending can be used without hatred or aggression and how he proves himself worthy to the dragons.

#atla #iroh #iroh critical #sun warriors

[zvtara-was-never-canon]

"and neither did Iroh" he actively took part in pitting Zuko against Azula and has never shown concern or empathy or effort for her.

The second half is true, the first half only truly happened after Ozai literally sent Azula to capture/kill Iroh and Zuko. He can be blamed for not snapping out of "combat" mode towards Azula at any point, and discouraging Zuko from doing it himself, but the problem did not START with him and unlike Ozai he did not make it worse out of malice, and I do genuinely believe that if someone sat Iroh down and explained his mistakes to him, he could be reasoned with. Dude went from imperialist general/prince to wanting the world to live in peace, without any nation imposing it's culture on the others.

I'm all for being critical of uncle Iroh when he deserves it (which happens way more often than the fandom is comfortable admiting, especially when it comes to his treatment of Azula) but it's important to keep context and key differences in mind - not even just to cut the guy some slack, but so we don't lose track of who deserves a slap in the face as a wake up call, and who is a literal abuser that needs to be in prison forever.

#iroh critical #azula deserved better

[ilikepjo24]

Destiny is an out-card irresponsible people use so that they don't have to deal with the consequences of their actions because "it was meant to happen, there was nothing I could do to stop it" and a tool entitled people use to justify their belief that they deserve things simply because they want them.

Which is why everytime Iroh and Zuko and even Aang used the word "destiny", they were full of shit.

That's not something I'm willing to debate on because it doesn't only have to do with Atla but also with my irl life philosophy that destiny is a myth.

#atla #iroh critical #zuko critical #aang critical #destiny doesn't exist #fight me

[because-its-so-sharp]

Unpopular opinion: Azula is more redeemable than Iroh

#atla avatar #azula #azulas redemption #i'm not hating on Iroh #a part of me loves him #but the fandom white-washes him like crazy and its making me a lil uncomfortable #avatar meme #iroh critical

[jetantifa]

I don't accept that the Fire Nation should be allowed to keep their monarchy and maybe Zuko tries and tries to cling onto power because he's convinced he can change things in the Fire Nation from the inside out. It's ill thought out, he's naive but he's desperate to try and the Avatar lets him, just as misguided.

Zuko talks the right talk when he's suggesting they need to pull back from the Earth Kingdom, but when an advisor points out that the quarry only exists because the firebenders made it possible to mine, that if they're pulling troops back then Earthbenders will lose their jobs, and what else will they find to do? Will they go backwards without people to guide them? He sounds troubled as he says it, it reminds Zuko of Iroh and something in him twists.

Zuko doesn't recognise it for what it is he's done until the military stationed there are drowned out, like rats, and the advisor begins to let spite bleed into his words, when he calls the Earth kingdom leeches who don't even know what's good for them because they aren't accepting that hand the fire nation offered them, and Zuko can't find a reason to disagree, he knows they can't govern themselves

It keeps happening, nobility stopping him from doing a smooth, clean break, a unit gets maimed, and Zuko doesn't know how to navigate it, he doesn't even know who could be involved. It's tied to the Earth kingdom but that just draws suspicion, after all, wasn't Zuko in Ba Sing Se for a while? Who's to say he wasn't murdering them in cold blood to stir some terror, to make his advisors push back, Ozai liked to do this then cut down anyone too unwilling to fall into line quickly.

The way it looks to the people, he's attempting to snatch away power from the nobility who usually back him, his family? Zuko can't get rid of them, because he knows too much change could set up a coup, so he's moving slowly, but in doing so, he's not removing fire nation bases, or pearing down his army, he's stagnant. When people start talking about Ozai again, in whispers, he doesn't understand, he thought if the head of the snake was removed, the rest would follow along so he could rebirth the fire nation into a new era.

But the imperialistic fire nation was always more than one man, it's systematic, it's a disease and Zuko only realises it when the walls are closing in and he's abdicating under threat of being usurped, he's stuck trying to figure out what's happening and anyway, I just think Zuko finding the freedom fighters, with Jet alive and making sense of what the fire nation represents, that the advisors and nobility obviously don't want to let go of their power because war is profitable, so ofc they dress it up as benevolent rather than controlling

I just think class traitor Zuko finally joining the freedom fighters could be so fun because the Palace was always stifling but he's only realising it when he's in the trees again, when the blue spirit comes alive again because you can't wash away 100 years of imperialism when it's embedded in the structure itself and they should start getting along in their shared ideal of wanting to resist. For Zuko it's to remove the rot, the corruption from the Fire Nation, for Jet and his people, to get the Fire Nation army to stop oppressing them, to leave them to govern themselves.

That it's Fire Nation propaganda that they (the Earth kingdom) can't function without the Fire Nation, it's nothing more than a way for the Fire Nation bourgeoisie to line their pockets because war is far more profitable than demilitarising like Zuko wanted so ofc they'd be at odd ends with him

#jet atla #jet #jetko #Freedom fighter Zuko #zuko #atla zuko #prince zuko #Freedom fighters #I honestly think it'd be better if Zuko gets to this line of thinking without his uncle #I think the problem of the fire nation is never really addressed and I need it to #People like Iroh don't get it #Iroh works through inaction he dithers and doesn't completely buy into imperialism being bad #he just never takes that last step #Iroh might personally be good now but politically he still isn't and Zuko should recognise it #anti monarchy for the fire nation #iroh critical #Just to be safe #netflix atla #I can't believe I'm getting sucked back into one of my old ships so easily