#transandrophobia adjacent issues

[transmascissues]

as an intersex woman- it'd be real nice if these people stopped throwing around the word "mutilation" and ignoring IGM (which is still practiced en mass even in "first world" countries) and our lack of bodily autonomy. a trans person (or even a cis person getting elective reconstructive surgery for a myriad of reasons, including IGM) getting bottom surgery is in no way comparable to actual mutilation against your will and it's such a slap in the face to see these people bitch about it while ignoring us. our medical records are literally hidden, destroyed, and altered for the sake of non-intersex people never having to contend with the reality of sex variations.

I bet they'd probably look at the stats on Intersex human rights and try to justify it away though, they sound like the types who want Intersex people to fit into their two perfect sex and gender boxes and never complain! thank you for not backing down, muddying the waters on mutilation- while the intersex community is still trying to fight to get IGM recognized and banned- harms IGM victims worldwide and disgusts me to my core.

Not to mention how many recent american bills banning or limiting elective trans surgeries conveniently still allow for IGM and the pushing of hormones on intersex children and adults who don't need them (again for the comfort of non-intersex people and the assumption we must be "fixed"...) very convenient for these people to ignore!

all of this! these people will act like the “western world” was totally against genital mutilation practices until the big bad trans people came along, when in reality it’s been happening right here at home the whole time.

the only reason they don’t see it (or at least act like they don’t see it) is because of intersexism and racism — intersexism that tells them that whatever’s being done to intersex people must be beneficial and medically sound because of course intersex traits should be “fixed”, and racism that validates their belief that the things happening where they live must be better than what’s happening “over there” because of course there are more human rights abuses happening in non-western places than in their good progressive home.

fearmongering about anything that changes the clitoris or vulva in any way being a form of FGM + downplaying the harms of IGM and saying it’s just good medicine = the perfect way to uphold their precious pseudoscientific sex binary for another day, i guess. as long as we’re all living with the genitals they think we should have, they don’t care who it hurts.

#ask answered #transandrophobia adjacent issues #intersexism #interphobia

[genderparfait]

if you go onto one of my posts to try and derail it to make it about any other demographic (in a way that is obviously bad faith), i hope you keel over and die lol

#make your own fucking post #my posts are for AND ABOUT transmascs first and foremost. #my blog is centered around transmasculinity and the issues we face as transmascs. #don't bring up anyone else unprovoked ESPECIALLY to try and convolute what i say #yes this is about a certain user whos blog name rhymes with 'mite-sub' #stop crawling the anti-transmasculinity (and adjacent) tags #get a fucking hobby #uchi.txt #vent? #transandrophobia #anti transmasculinity #transmasc #transmasculine

[a-faggot-with-opinions]

I think I just had a realization about the term "TME" being used with regards to only sapphic/lesbian spaces and how that relates to transmasculine erasure.

All people who aren't cis or gender conforming experience systemic oppression due to being non-cis or GNC. However, specifically in homosexual spaces, this oppression applies differently depending on whether someone is transmasc, transfem, or something else. The "talking about transandrophobia is transmisogynistic" crowd likes to focus overly on sapphic and lesbian spaces, entirely ignoring achilleans and gay men. And that makes sense, because that group is mostly made up of transfems and trans women! It is okay to not mention transmascs when you're talking specifically about transfem issues! However the issue arises when they deny the oppression that comes with being an AFAB homosexual man(-adjacent person).

Often, transandrophobia deniers who are transfem will claim that transmascs are privileged over transfems specifically by using the dynamics in lesbian communities as evidence. Though transmasc lesbians experience systemic oppression too (butchphobia), transmasc lesbians are incredibly privileged over transfem lesbians when it comes to intracommunity dynamics. Then, transandrophobia deniers will leave it at that and not even consider transmasc issues, labeling us as "TME" and contributing to our erasure. One example which shows this, and that I've discussed at length in another post, is a transandrophobia denier saying this:

As I've said before on this blog, this type of statement screams "I am extremely uneducated on transmasculine erasure." By claiming that TEHMs simply care about gatekeeping their communities, you're agreeing with their rhetoric. TEHMs are, literally, the male version of transphobic lesbians. Full stop. They are exactly as dangerous and actually a lot more common than transphobic lesbians, and this has been supported by many surveys.

So why this long digression into talking about TEHMs? Because the experience of being transmasc in a gay men's space is more similar to being transfem in a lesbian space than it is to being transmasc in a lesbian space. This is because we as people who were assigned a different gender at birth from the gender that most people in our respective queer spaces are or were assigned at birth face many of the same issues, and trying to apply a TMA/TME framework to the oppression that we face only works when we look at sapphic spaces because GNC cis men and AMAB enbies in queer men's spaces actually have privilege over us AFAB people.

In fact, many TEHMs are accepting of, and will date, feminine nonbinary people who were AMAB. None of this makes sense if we apply a framework that centers transmisogyny. Instead, it's helpful instead to see transmisogyny and transandrophobia as two sides of the same coin: both are an intersection of transphobia and misogyny, but they apply to different groups of people and affect us in different ways.

I guess my main point here is that centering transmisogyny in discussions of trans liberation and trans-inclusive feminism will only continue to perpetuate transmasculine erasure and transandrophobia, and denying that this happens makes you, in fact, part of the problem.

#star speaks #transandrophobia #anti transmasculinity #transmasc erasure #queer discourse #long post #this is your brain on tehm talking points #tma/tme

[transvarmint]

On Transandrophobia and Related Issues

How we define Transandrophobia:

Transandrophobia describes the intersection of transphobia, misogyny, and the marginalization of non-hegemonic masculinity & manhood (that is primarily targeted at transmasculine individuals).

Anyone, regardless of birth assignment, gender identity, gender presentation, etc, can experience transandrophobia at any point. However, it is primarily targeted as transmasculine people and adjacent groups.

Similarly, transmisogyny is the intersection of transphobia and misogyny that is primarily targeted at transfeminine individuals and adjacent groups. It can be experienced by anyone, but it is largely targeted towards transfems.

The same goes for exorsexism (oppression directed at nonbinary people) and intersexism (oppression directed at intersex people).

[More talking points below the cut].

"How are manhood and masculinity marginalized under the Patriarchy?"

Any expressions of manhood and masculinity that do not strictly adhere to white, Christian, colonialist, abled, cisheteronormative, allonormative, (+etc) standards can be harshly marginalized under the Patriarchy.

This is because for the Patriarchy to function, rigid enforcement of these standards is mandatory. Any sort of subversion of the status quo must be punished to maintain White Christian Hegemony. There is no room for self-expression, because that is a challenge to the Patriarchy, and may allow room for other people to challenge it as well.

Some examples of marginalized masculinity include Black men, whose manhood is demonized. They are often viewed as inherently violent or aggressive, especially if they display masculine qualities. This often results in police violence, which is usually justified with the fear that police felt simply by being in the presence of a Black man.

Disabled men, conversely, often experience having their masculinity entirely diminished. This relates to the phenomenon of "degendering" in which those who do not fit into certain standards will have their ability to access manhood entirely revoked.

As for transgender men and transmasuline people, our entire experiences of manhood and masculinity are marginalized. The fact that we express these things at all is a slight against the patriarchy, and our masculinity is transgressive by default.

"But trans men have male privilege"

Having male privilege means that one benefits from misogyny on both an interpersonal and systemic level. Because trans men are unilaterally oppressed by misogyny, this means that we cannot benefit from male privilege, regardless of how well we pass.

Some trans men who pass may receive interpersonal male privilege (i.e. being treated with more respect by strangers), but this is extremely conditional. It is conditional upon staying closeted and that nobody ever finds out you are trans. Because the moment that happens, the supposed "privilege" evaporates, and he is now immediately subject to potential violence.

This is very similar to the argument about trans women experiencing male privilege. A trans women who stays closeted and attempts to adhere to patriarchal standards of manhood may receive conditional benefits, but she will always be oppressed by misogyny on a systemic level. So she does not actually benefit from male privilege systemically.

"Saying that trans men face misogyny is misgendering / it's only misdirected"

Saying that trans men face misogyny is a demonstrable fact, and it only appears to be misgendering because of the assumption that only women face misogyny.

However, trans men deal with misogyny on a regular basis, both interpersonally and systemically. Having our reproductive rights controlled is a key example of this, as even a trans man who passes is still impacted by anti-abortion laws and other reproductive restrictions.

It cannot be misdirected when we are the direct targets of it. People often see us as failed women who need to be corrected and put into line. They very much see and acknowledge us and are disgusted by us, and wish to use violence to correct us.

"Androphobia isn't real"

It is not "trans + androphobia" it is "transandro + phobia". As described above, it is the intersection of multiple things. Words do not just mean the literal definition of their roots. By the same logic, cissexism would mean sexism against cis people, rather than the assumption that everyone is cis.

And besides, marginalization of some forms of manhood and masculinity is very real, as elaborated above. The hatred and fear of our masculinity is an essential aspect of our oppression.

"Trans men oppress trans women / transandrophobia implies trans women oppress trans men."

Trans people cannot oppress each other (on the basis of being trans) as they do not have the systemic power to do so. There are no (or very, very few) trans people in positions of power that are creating and perpetuating the system structures used to oppress us.

Trans men also do not materially benefit from transmisogyny in any way. We do not gain anything from the oppression of trans women - and in fact, any attack on the trans community harms trans people as a whole.

Lateral aggression is absolutely a real thing within the trans community, but it comes from every part of the community, not just one group to another.

"What trans men face is just transphobia, not some special category"

Every trans person faces unique intersections of oppression based on the demographics they occupy.

The argument frequently made is that trans men only face oppression for being trans, and not for being men. This is false, and is incongruent with the experiences of many trans men. We are targeted specifically for being transmasculine / trans men. People notice our masculinity and manhood and are disgusted by it, and choose to use violence to suppress it. To say that people only hate us for being trans, is an attempt to separate us from our manhood / masculinity (which coincidentally, is exactly what transphobes do as well).

Also, the idea that gendered violence against trans men is "just" transphobia, while other types of transphobia are more specific, wrongly centers men's experiences as the default, and all others as deviations.

By creating a word to describe this specific type of transphobia, it now puts everyone on an equal playing field where no experience is treated as the default. Transphobia now becomes the umbrella term that trans people are unified in our fight against, and all the other more granular terms are useful labels to describe overlapping types of oppression.

#transandrophobia #transmascphobia #transmasculine #trans man #transmisandry

[molsno]

I can actually see why some transmascs may talk about "hatred of masculinity" in a good faith (and still be wrong).

Before realizing that they were men they were probably identifying as women heavily dissatisfied with being women and probably also heavily gender non-conforming. Neither of those are considered fully acceptable by wider society, but totally accepted by feminist movement, at least here where I live. And the most prominent feminist organisations here are radfem-adjacent.

Now, saying that those organisations at large are "anti-men" or even "against masculinity in men" is wrong, considering how they tried to portray their enemies as effeminate as some kind of own. And, though I have never witnessed it myself, how straight girls who use radfem rhetoric are willing to invent new definitions of lesbianism to call their cishet boyfriends "lesbians", men for them have higher priority than lesbians at least.

Still, running into people there who did just hate men was a daily occurrence, and many more were parroting their rhetoric ("feminine energy" as some kind of fix for civilisation and so on). If some transmascs allied more with people like this, discovering that they are what they considered to be some ontological evil might have been traumatic.

Still, posing misandry as big societal problem and not fringe worldview that they internalized is silly at best (I am using misandry here as personal attitude, not system, hence no quotes). And I always assume that people who talk about it as something important are either doing it in bad faith or repeating someone's bad faith arguments without analysing it.

(Now it's up to question how many transmascs actually joined those organisations in any way, considering how for unrealised trans girl that I was any idea about how good men or masculinity are even (in not ridiculous form) was an instant "no" on all levels, but who knows)

yeah, that's pretty much my understanding of it, too. basically all transmascs who believe in transandrophobia display at least some level of internalized gender essentialism underlying their entire ideology.

and like, I get it. the feminist wave of the 2010s was so deeply entangled with radical feminism that for a good while, anyone heavily involved in the movement was exposed to the biological essentialist worldview central to radical feminism that declares that men are ontologically evil, and I have no doubt that many young, repressed trans people at the time internalized that idea to an extent. I certainly did, and it only amplified my dysphoria as a teenager. it was traumatizing to me, and I can completely understand why it would be traumatizing to transmascs to come to terms with the fact that they were something they had always believed was inherently bad.

it's just like you said though, it's a mistake to frame misandry as a society wide issue when really it's a very small minority of people. but a lot of trans men never question or challenge the worldview they developed in their youth, so when they start getting read as men when they're adults and inevitably face transphobia, they start attributing it to a societal hatred of masculinity instead of recognizing that the actual cause of their oppression is a society that seeks to protect the concept of the immutable gender binary that enables the patriarchal hierarchy of power at all costs.

I don't really have any sympathy for them, though. like yeah, it sucks to be made to feel like you should hate yourself just for existing, but like, that isn't unique to them. the gender essentialism so many of them have internalized is a big reason a lot of transandrophobia truthers start aligning themselves with terfs, and I don't think I need to tell you how I feel about that. 😑 they have an alternative, they can just reevaluate their beliefs until they come to realize that man and woman are completely neutral categories entirely devoid of value judgment and don't say anything meaningful about any given person other than what they like to be called. I'll admit from experience that accepting that truth can be difficult but it's not impossible, and challenging your worldview is something you're going to have to do a lot in life if you actually want to meaningfully change how you interact with people and the world around you.

but why do that when they can demand trans women bend over backwards to appease them? it must feel good to get a taste of that male privilege when a few trans women are actually self-hating enough to listen to them. that is, at least until they get too much backlash from the rest of us who have enough self esteem to stand up for ourselves and they recede into the open arms of terfs for comfort from the mean trannies.

#ask #Anonymous

[nothorses]

The problem though feels like a lot of mainstream feminism no longer wants to dismantle the patriarchy. It's been coopted by systems of power that include patriarchy, capitalism, and white supremacy and deform and defang it. So many people are becoming disillusioned with feminism because the most visible face of it is #girlboss shit and other forms of commodified feminism. That's not a feminism I want to ally with, and it's the most common one to see around.

In addition, the the influx of radical feminist ideas and the poisoning of the well that MRAs did around legitimate men's issues, mean that even effective feminist groups are often suspicious to hostile of men and men's issues, and it's... tiring, trying to prove yourself over and over to people who've been hurt by other people that you're not like them and that your issues are important. That's if they even let you try to prove yourself rather than saying that you have no place trying because you're a man.

I don't think that men who are trying to take down the patriarchy are going to be able to find a home in most feminist spaces because #girlboss has no space for men and radical feminism has even less. Personally, I like Men's Lib. It aligns with the goals of feminism, but doesn't result in being told that I'm speaking over women for discussing our issues with patriarchy.

I mean, yeah! imo what you're describing is a kind of adjacent group, or internal group, of people who have similar goals to you already.

That's what transmascs who've been talking about transandrophobia have been doing, too. We're not outside of trans activism, nor are we at odds with any demographic of trans people. We're just not welcome in a lot of trans activist spaces right now; what we're doing is building communities and networks within ourselves, working with the ideas and goals of the rest of the community, and trying to build allyship between us and everyone else so we can be a stronger trans community overall.

It's not a 1:1 allegory, but the situation with feminism and men is similar. Mainstream feminism has absolutely been poisoned by libfem and corporate #girlboss bullshit; radical feminism is on the rise lately; those things all range from useless to openly hostile to men. But that's not all feminism is, either. Men's Lib is adjacent to feminism if not wholly a part of it, it's just doing that in a way that's productive.

My saying "MRAs are not your allies, feminism is" is not me saying I think men should try independently to join and change spaces that are hostile to them. Obviously that's unsafe and unproductive. What I'm saying is that the spaces we need to cultivate in order to make progress need to be seeking allyship, not confrontation.

Feminist spaces are currently pretty hostile to men, particularly those who want to talk about what they face under patriarchy, and who want to participate without being pressured to self-flagellate or allow themselves to be a target for other people's unrelated frustrations. Considering there are actual problems that men face as a part of patriarchy, that's really unfortunate and really counterproductive to larger systemic change.

So yeah, find people who have similar goals. Join and form communities. But you have to do the work to make sure those communities are healthy, to course-correct as needed, and to keep your goals firmly in front of you at all times. Don't get sidetracked by MRA bullshit, and don't mistake them for your friends or allies.

Feminism is going through some shit right now, and that sucks for all of us. But we need to stand by and fight for the core values and goals, because that's what's ultimately going to fix the problems we're all working to solve. Not reviving misogynistic hate groups from 8 years ago.

[stopcannibalizingourown]

There’s a particular thing I’m always afraid to bring up because it feels like splitting hairs (which to a degree I think is true), and I worry that I might come across as telling people they Absolutely Need To Change Their Language (which I hope I won’t).

Essentially, it’s the terms “AFABs” and “AMABs.” Like, used specifically as nouns. It’s not an issue with terms to describe assigned sex, or even with “AFAB” and “AMAB” in general. Like, as an example, the baed/del-adjacent circles’ manner of using these terms was very much one of the reasons I unfollowed them--but:

1. They still misused “AFAB” and “AMAB” for gender/bioessentialist arguments and oppression olympics even when they said “AFAB/AMAB people” instead.

2. The vast majority of the time I see “AFABs/AMABs” in circles discussing transandrophobia, the terms are used constructively and carefully, and I’m not about to derail a post with a minor linguistic quibble.

3. Frankly, a lot of the reason why people use the noun version is that it’s a lot faster to append an “s” to the end of a word than say “people” after it, and especially on mobile that difference can be a Lot.

But on the flip side, thinking about it, I do think that beyond excessively online communities who are buddy-buddy with cults (i.e.the community that formed around the baed/dels and outlasted them as a discrete group, as noted earlier) I see a lot of general bioessentialism from people who use AFAB/AMAB as a noun.

Like, one instance that really struck me was reading a teacher’s response to some entitled cis guy being a bigot to their students, and most of it was great but then the teacher called him something to the effect of “a straight, white AMAB” and that left a really sour taste in my mouth. There was no need to call out his assigned sex as a specific factor in why he was awful; if the teacher wanted to call him an entitled cis man they should’ve called him an entitled cis man.

I don’t know, this is something I’ve been thinking about for months and not getting anywhere in any direction except “feels icky,” so I thought I would put it out there in hopes of seeing if anyone else has any opinions on this.

And again, if you use this particular construction, I don’t think you’re an evil bioessentialist or even that you necessarily need to stop using it. I just want to open a conversation on the matter.

#is that enough disclaimers you guys #i mean that as a joke #the people that follow me are mostly transmascs and other people who are adamantly against transandrophobia #and while i don't know many of you personally i still trust that anyone approaching this discussion will do so in good faith #(not to say that i don't expect to be called out if i say anything shitty just. this community isn't prone to bad faith dogpiling) #gender linguistics tag #biological essentialism #the baed/dels

[miseriathome]

Honestly im pretty sure the main reason transandrophobia became The Correct Word is bc of how a few years back a lot of cis men would complain about misandry with the perspective of like, supporting women is inherently the same as shoving down men so i guess it's just to avoid that association? (That and when i first read ur post i legit thought you wrote transmisogyny and not transmisandry, so i guess it's clearer for a reader who glances at things while tired and hungry?)

re: transandrophobia

Yeah, the connection to the word "misandry" is by far the most prevalent argument I've seen, but I don't really get what's compelling about it since:

Bad-faith people will co-opt any word they want (and we didn't rename racism because of "reverse racism," ya know?)

"Androphobia" is just as usable to describe oppression/bigotry against (cis) men as "misandry" is, since it's definitionally no different

If you follow the "misandry isn't real oppression" logic, there's no reason why "transmisandry" has to also imply non-oppression

Misandry is actually a useful term in and of itself even when not referring to an axis of trans oppression

The people who were dismissive of transmasculine issues use the "misandry isn't real" excuse as a cover for their true belief, which is that transmasculinity doesn't deserve a platform; it's a hoax, and changing the word ends up being an appeal to respectability politics that won't work to sway transphobes' opinions

I could accept readability as a consequential thing, but it would be really lackluster if anybody tried to use it as a full-on justification because:

Lots of things scan very similarly to each other/are easily mistaken for one another at a glance, especially adjacent concepts, and that's just how morphology works

I keep parsing "transandrophobia" as "transphobia" when skimming, and also it feels like marbles in my mouth when I try to say it aloud (double "an" + "ropho")

Would still be interested in more takes about why people prefer "transandrophobia," if there are any others floating around.

#transmisandry #anon #ask

[pbscore]

Hi Jackson! I have a question regarding misogyny as a tme person. I'm a fem-aligned afab nonbinary person, and I'm not sure how to talk about the misogyny I experience as someone who is perceived as a cis woman but technically isn't. Up until now I've thought of myself as experiencing misogyny the way that cis women do, but I'm considering that I might not be as feminine-aligned as I thought. Idk if I can continue to identify as someone who experiences misogyny if I start to transition to be a bit more androgynous but not masc. Do you have any thoughts on this? ty and I hope you have a nice weekend 🍂

Ah, hello!

I actually have a pretty simple answer to this that I hope helps (my tone is genuine, I promise).

So, before I really started to ‘pass’ being on T, I still experienced some shitty misogyny-adjacent bigotry. I realized, though, that often times these bigots would still treat me like crap even after I started to physically transition and made my pronouns and name known.

To me, I feel that those experiences of pre-T and after T bigotry is still just transphobia, mostly due to the fact that I personally was already detached from identifying as a woman for a long time.

However, when I want to specifically talk about misogyny that I experienced when I was perceived as a girl/woman, I simply say, ‘my experiences before I came out was like this…’ and just describe the misogynistic experiences I had. I came to understand that while it’s important for me as a transmasc individual to recognize my past and how it felt to be put in those situations when I was seen as a woman, it was far more important that I realized how easily recruitable I was to TERF/radfem circles because of them.

That’s why I personally will not use terms like ‘transandrophobia’ or ‘transmisandry’. These terms were made in such a short amount of time in response to valid criticisms towards the trans men and transmasc folks in the community who are fully aware of how TERFs will target them as recruits to use against trans women/transfems. These terms were not made in good faith to genuinely talk about issues tme trans folks deal with and to be quite honest, ‘transphobia’ and ‘transmisia’ are good enough terms because what often will effect tme folks will inevitably effect trans women/transfems.

So, anon, I say describe your experiences with whatever words or terms you feel are the best. I don’t really want to tell you what to do or what not to do because I believe it’s best to let folks make their own choices. I’m just sharing with you my personal takes and how I talk about my experiences as a tme nonbinary person.

Even though I pass as a guy (for the most part), I still keep those pre-T experiences in the back of my mind to remind me of how not to act around women and fem-leaning folks (whether they’re afab or not). That’s just who I am. Hopefully, some of this helped and if there’s anymore advice other folks have out there, feel free to comment 😊

#asks #anon #trans stuff

[rotationalsymmetry]

BTW, I’m probably not going to talk about this much, but: I gotta say the first time I saw someone using a “transmisandry” or “transandrophobia” tag I got nervous and was like, “is this some ugly ‘gender critical’ adjacent thing, is this some weird way of dismissing trans feminine problems?” But what I’ve seen (goodness knows the internet is big) has definitely not been that, it’s been “different trans people experience problems unique to their specific situations, and they’re all worth talking about, and that means having words for them.” And as far as I can tell, hostility to people using the term is coming from a place of “I don’t want you talking about your problems, at all” rather than any, y’know, legitimate criticism.

Now, personally, as a person who generally gets seen as a woman and not a man, I don’t necessarily run into a lot of problems irl that are significantly different from what women experience. And since I’m not physically dysphoric and not interested in transitioning, I don’t really run into issues with access to medical treatment. So I figure I don’t generally have that much to talk about on the oppression front, as a trans masc… right up until some clueless person who quite possibly has never met a transmasc offline wants to tell me that I have “male privilege” (where?) or that it doesn’t make sense for women to be concerned about transmascs’ issues because as we all know it’s not like trans men ever work on feminist issues (rolls my eyes so hard that I can see the back of my skull.)

Anyways: ffs yes transmascs have our own issues, that overlap substantially with women’s (cis and trans) issues and with transfeminine issues, and which are also in some ways their own thing. It’s ok to talk about that, it’s not taking away anything from anyone else.

Come join me in the solidarity big tent. There’s room for everybody.