bellovebug

[bellovebug]

Some ALW Phantom + Text posts

[bellovebug]

the angel of gotham……

phantom of the opera but he’s like a stage mom trying to get his baby dick more leading roles

[bellovebug]

"Sweet cut," says my boyfriend, after I show him the new fun animal shape i shaved my pubic hair into

[bellovebug]

Noah Schnapp and Millie Bobby Brown as Will Byers and El Hopper

Stranger Things 4 Ep. 8: “Papa”

[bellovebug]

how can anyone hate her

and how can anyone hate him

like…genuinely???

[bellovebug]

THIS IS THE COOLEST THING IVE EVER SEEN OH MY GOD THANK YOU SO MUCH

also omg i hope ur injuries are healing well but holy shit this is so fantastic

MCYT FIC RECS • CRIMEBOYS

⤷  you have seen me like this before by Bellovebug ( @bellovebug )

He meets Wilbur’s eyes, still that same warm, dark oak brown, and Tommy knows without a shadow of a doubt that this is his brother. This is no coincidence, this is no fluke; this is his brother, and this will always be his brother. With the streaks of lighter gold in his eyes, the beauty mark on his right cheekbone, the scar on his chin from the time Tommy found a switchblade and didn’t know any better than to mess around with it at the age of nine.

It never could have been anybody else.

[bellovebug]

/rp /dsmp, all names mentioned are characters

Concept: Tommy "hesitating" when faced with the decision to give up the discs or let Tubbo die does not inherently mean he was considering letting Tubbo die for the discs. That's not what that means at all, but that's what Phil is assuming it means, and because Tommy looks up to Phil, he just assumes he must be right when Phil says that hesitation means he values items over people.

Obviously I can't say for sure, but when you watch it back, Tommy was never considering letting Tubbo die. It wasn't a situation where he sat there deliberating like "should i give up the discs.... Or let Tubbo die.... I don't know!" That's not what he was doing!!!! Dream put him in an incredibly difficult situation, and Tommy was looking for a way out. He didn't hesitate because he wasn't sure if Tubbo's life was worth giving up the discs- he hesitated because he was looking for a third option. He was trying to see if there was some loophole or escape that would let them both survive and get to keep the discs . He didn't want to give either of them up, and that doesn't make him selfish.

He cares about people and he cares about things, like normal people do. That doesn't mean he cares about things more than people, and he literally showed that at the community house when he gave up the discs after realizing he didn't mean it when he said the discs were worth more than Tubbo ever was. He realized that's not the kind of person he wanted to be so he stopped and he worked towards changing. That's how I know he never would've considered letting Tubbo die for the discs- at the community house, Tubbo's life wasn't even in danger, and Tommy still let the discs go because he hurt Tubbo. He would never go from giving the discs up with Tubbo completely unthreatened by physical harm to considering letting him die for them like a month later.

I genuinely believe that Tommy hesitating was Tommy searching for a way to save Tubbo and the discs, and I don't blame him at all. I can't blame him for wanting to save Tubbo and keep the discs which he's been fighting for for months. He loves Tubbo, and that's not negated or minimized by his value for the discs. He's allowed to want things, he's allowed to want to keep things that belong to him. That's normal. That's human. He didn't want to agree to give up the discs if there was a way he'd get to keep them while keeping Tubbo alive.

It's natural to look for an option C when options A and B both hurt, even when one hurts more than the other. That's why he hesitated. I really don't get why it's so hard to understand that.

#dsmp #tommy #tubbo #dream #c!tommy #c!tubbo #c!dream #analysis #lore #hot take

[bellovebug]

please someone just rec me books or anthologies of poetry similar to the ones in Ours Poetica. I love poetry but only certain kinds and whatever tf kind of poetry is in Ours Poetica is exactly my taste and I have not been able to find collections of that taste, just individual poems, so if any of yall have ideas i am DESPERATE here

#ours poetica #dsmp #tommyinnit #poetry #sbi #help

[bellovebug]

I AM GOING TO CRY SO HARD THIS IS THE BEST THING IVE EVER SEEN IN MY LIFE THANK YOU SO MUCH HOLY SHIT

Maybe, it looks down on him, and says, you have played the game well.

(i love you because you are love)

go read the sky is as sad as you are by bellovebug because its great.

[bellovebug]

Tumblr what the fuck is going on with all the c!tommy neg today??? I don't have the tag blocked because I like seeing analysis and i want to see the other side of things every once in a while but scrolling through the c!tommy tag this morning was literally just neg after neg about the stupidest shit

#c!tommy #tommyinnit #dream smp #dsmp #c!tommy neg #idk yall just calm tf down. i saw someone say they thought cc!tommy makes c!tommy go throigh traumatizing things just as an excuse to make #his character annoying and like. dude???? no???? c!tommy isn't annoying because hes traumatized. hes always been like that. thats literally #just a character trait because thats how cc! tommy acts. just say you dont like cc!tommy and go? #hey people who dont like c!tommy- its valid not to like his character for things hes done or the way he acts. but disliking c!tommy because #you dont like cc!tommys mannerisms and content is not cool and is not genuine character analysis

[bellovebug]

Kids by The Frights is such a c!tommy song. No i am not taking criticism

#c!tommy #tommyinnit #dsmp

[bellovebug]

Okay I've been seeing a lot of posts about tommy's recent semi-lore stream, and about bench trio and everything, and like i agree that the people claiming ranboo is replacing tommy in Tubbo's life are wrong, because the dynamics are completely different and neither of them could replace the other, not to mention tubbo can have more than one important person in his life. He can have multiple friends.

However, that being said, while i don't believe Ranboo is replacing Tommy, i do believe that tommy and tubbo have been growing apart, and I also believe that Tommy is still as ride or die for Tubbo as he's always been. And that's why it hurts, because Tubbo isn't anymore. Ranboo hasn't replaced tommy in the sense that he's taking Tommy's place, but he's started taking priority in Tubbo's life, which leaves Tubbo with less to give Tommy.

Currently, to Tubbo, Beeduo takes priority over both Benchtrio and Clingyduo, but Tommy prioritizes Tubbo and Ranboo over everything. I genuinely believe that Tommy feels stronger for Tubbo and Ranboo than they do for him- throwback to that period of time when Tubbo's relation to Tommy on the wiki was just "positive" but Tommy's relation to Tubbo was "very positive", huh?

But i think the reason for this is tommy's total lack of stability in his life, and it's not ranboo or Tubbo's responsibility to provide it for him. Like they said, they have their own things going on- but Tommy even offered to "go see their endeavors", and Ranboo turned him down. Tommy would drop anything to help them, even building his railway to appease wilbur.

So Tubbo isn't replacing tommy with ranboo at all, but that doesn't mean they're not growing apart. That doesn't mean that Tubbo doesn't care about other things more, now.

That doesn't mean it doesn't hurt to see Tommy scramble to please Wilbur (the only person who's ever unconditionally cared about tommy, even when it was in a possessive and harmful way) and expecting his friends to help him only for both of them to turn away. It hurt to hear Tubbo hesitate and then say "....he has his own thing going on, but we can still be friends", as if they haven't always been friends? Especially in contrast to the way Tommy immediately said, "Tubbo and Ranboo? They're my friends." It hurt to see Ranboo immediately drop all association to Tommy once Quackity joined vc- it's understandable, for sure, but it still hurt because I know without a shadow of a doubt that Tommy would've thrown hands for Ranboo had the situation been reversed. It really hurt to hear Ranboo leap to Tubbo's defense against Quackity but stay completely silent when Quackity turned the subject to Tommy.

Ranboo isn't replacing Tommy, but that doesn't mean Tubbo and Tommy are doing well, and it certainly doesn't mean that the imbalance in all of their views of each other doesn't hurt like hell dude

It's not tubbo or ranboo's fault- it's understandable to want to stay out of Tommy's conflicts. But literally the only reason he's causing problems right now is for Wilbur and he straight up told Beeduo that and neither of them thought it was objectionable?? Literally ALL I WANT is for somebody to be there for Tommy even when he starts doing stupid shit. And so far, not a single person has actually stuck by his side (at least, not in a healthy way- I'm looking at you, wilbur soot). It makes me so sad

[bellovebug]

Okay I've been seeing a lot of posts about tommy's recent semi-lore stream, and about bench trio and everything, and like i agree that the people claiming ranboo is replacing tommy in Tubbo's life are wrong, because the dynamics are completely different and neither of them could replace the other, not to mention tubbo can have more than one important person in his life. He can have multiple friends.

However, that being said, while i don't believe Ranboo is replacing Tommy, i do believe that tommy and tubbo have been growing apart, and I also believe that Tommy is still as ride or die for Tubbo as he's always been. And that's why it hurts, because Tubbo isn't anymore. Ranboo hasn't replaced tommy in the sense that he's taking Tommy's place, but he's started taking priority in Tubbo's life, which leaves Tubbo with less to give Tommy.

Currently, to Tubbo, Beeduo takes priority over both Benchtrio and Clingyduo, but Tommy prioritizes Tubbo and Ranboo over everything. I genuinely believe that Tommy feels stronger for Tubbo and Ranboo than they do for him- throwback to that period of time when Tubbo's relation to Tommy on the wiki was just "positive" but Tommy's relation to Tubbo was "very positive", huh?

But i think the reason for this is tommy's total lack of stability in his life, and it's not ranboo or Tubbo's responsibility to provide it for him. Like they said, they have their own things going on- but Tommy even offered to "go see their endeavors", and Ranboo turned him down. Tommy would drop anything to help them, even building his railway to appease wilbur.

So Tubbo isn't replacing tommy with ranboo at all, but that doesn't mean they're not growing apart. That doesn't mean that Tubbo doesn't care about other things more, now.

That doesn't mean it doesn't hurt to see Tommy scramble to please Wilbur (the only person who's ever unconditionally cared about tommy, even when it was in a possessive and harmful way) and expecting his friends to help him only for both of them to turn away. It hurt to hear Tubbo hesitate and then say "....he has his own thing going on, but we can still be friends", as if they haven't always been friends? Especially in contrast to the way Tommy immediately said, "Tubbo and Ranboo? They're my friends." It hurt to see Ranboo immediately drop all association to Tommy once Quackity joined vc- it's understandable, for sure, but it still hurt because I know without a shadow of a doubt that Tommy would've thrown hands for Ranboo had the situation been reversed. It really hurt to hear Ranboo leap to Tubbo's defense against Quackity but stay completely silent when Quackity turned the subject to Tommy.

Ranboo isn't replacing Tommy, but that doesn't mean Tubbo and Tommy are doing well, and it certainly doesn't mean that the imbalance in all of their views of each other doesn't hurt like hell dude

It's not tubbo or ranboo's fault- it's understandable to want to stay out of Tommy's conflicts. But literally the only reason he's causing problems right now is for Wilbur and he straight up told Beeduo that and neither of them thought it was objectionable?? Literally ALL I WANT is for somebody to be there for Tommy even when he starts doing stupid shit. And so far, not a single person has actually stuck by his side (at least, not in a healthy way- I'm looking at you, wilbur soot). It makes me so sad

[bellovebug]

Today I made people from my twitter cry with this, idkk why, but if you cried too reblog

[bellovebug]

/rp /dsmp

Okay I've been seeing a lot of posts about tommy's recent semi-lore stream, and about bench trio and everything, and like i agree that the people claiming ranboo is replacing tommy in Tubbo's life are wrong, because the dynamics are completely different and neither of them could replace the other, not to mention tubbo can have more than one important person in his life. He can have multiple friends.

However, that being said, while i don't believe Ranboo is replacing Tommy, i do believe that tommy and tubbo have been growing apart, and I also believe that Tommy is still as ride or die for Tubbo as he's always been. And that's why it hurts, because Tubbo isn't anymore. Ranboo hasn't replaced tommy in the sense that he's taking Tommy's place, but he's started taking priority in Tubbo's life, which leaves Tubbo with less to give Tommy.

Currently, to Tubbo, Beeduo takes priority over both Benchtrio and Clingyduo, but Tommy prioritizes Tubbo and Ranboo over everything. I genuinely believe that Tommy feels stronger for Tubbo and Ranboo than they do for him- throwback to that period of time when Tubbo's relation to Tommy on the wiki was just "positive" but Tommy's relation to Tubbo was "very positive", huh?

But i think the reason for this is tommy's total lack of stability in his life, and it's not ranboo or Tubbo's responsibility to provide it for him. Like they said, they have their own things going on- but Tommy even offered to "go see their endeavors", and Ranboo turned him down. Tommy would drop anything to help them, even building his railway to appease wilbur.

So Tubbo isn't replacing tommy with ranboo at all, but that doesn't mean they're not growing apart. That doesn't mean that Tubbo doesn't care about other things more, now.

That doesn't mean it doesn't hurt to see Tommy scramble to please Wilbur (the only person who's ever unconditionally cared about tommy, even when it was in a possessive and harmful way) and expecting his friends to help him only for both of them to turn away. It hurt to hear Tubbo hesitate and then say "....he has his own thing going on, but we can still be friends", as if they haven't always been friends? Especially in contrast to the way Tommy immediately said, "Tubbo and Ranboo? They're my friends." It hurt to see Ranboo immediately drop all association to Tommy once Quackity joined vc- it's understandable, for sure, but it still hurt because I know without a shadow of a doubt that Tommy would've thrown hands for Ranboo had the situation been reversed. It really hurt to hear Ranboo leap to Tubbo's defense against Quackity but stay completely silent when Quackity turned the subject to Tommy.

Ranboo isn't replacing Tommy, but that doesn't mean Tubbo and Tommy are doing well, and it certainly doesn't mean that the imbalance in all of their views of each other doesn't hurt like hell dude

It's not tubbo or ranboo's fault- it's understandable to want to stay out of Tommy's conflicts. But literally the only reason he's causing problems right now is for Wilbur and he straight up told Beeduo that and neither of them thought it was objectionable?? Literally ALL I WANT is for somebody to be there for Tommy even when he starts doing stupid shit. And so far, not a single person has actually stuck by his side (at least, not in a healthy way- I'm looking at you, wilbur soot). It makes me so sad

#dream smp #tommyinnit #tubbo #ranboo #quackity #wilbur soot #c!tommy #c!tubbo #c!ranboo #clingy duo #beeduo #bench trio #c!tubbo critical #c!ranboo critical #not really but im tagging just to be safe #tommy apologist

[bellovebug]

Hello!!

also /dsmp, /rp, and /nm, of course

I think you're right on a lot of accounts- first and foremost, that both murder attempts are morally wrong. That's undeniable, and you're completely correct. I think saying they're both understandable to different degrees is really accurate. But before I get into other stuff, I'm pretty sure Revivebur saying Ghostbur being on the train conducted by Dream was a pretty solid message that Ghostbur was left behind there. Revivebur told Tommy that Ghostbur "came rolling into town, into my limbo- he's in my limbo, Tommy!" He said that present tense, implying Ghostbur was still there. And I think if Ghostbur had still been on the train when Wilbur was being revived, he would've talked about it. Him getting his memories back is a confusing thing, but I think Ghostbur is dead either way, whether he was killed and left behind or killed and dispersed into Alivebur's consciousness after he was revived, otherwise I assume they would've automatically merged when Ghostbur was killed, rather than being transported to Wilbur's limbo. But as for Dream- I agree with everything you said about solitary confinement. Like I said in my initial replies, Dream's actions are understandable, and it's easy to sympathize with them. That's not what I'm arguing against at all. All I'm saying is that Dream's actions aren't excusable or moral, and I'm not trying to say Tommy's are, either. However, I really don't think Tommy killing Dream in the bunker is at all comparable to what Dream's done to Tommy. Tommy's killings of Dream were completely and entirely backed up by almost everybody on the server. That doesn't make it okay, but I think it makes it less like murder and more like an execution. Everybody supported the decision to kill Dream, it was just Tommy holding the axe. Yes, Dream had followed their orders and all that, but it's not as if that would make them trust him not to do anything if left to his own devices, especially because mere minutes before he was actively telling Tommy how he planned to kill Tubbo and control the entire server through their attachments. Everyone there (which was 90% of the server) supported killing Dream, because their train of logic led them to believe it would've been for the good of the server, which was true. Tommy killed him twice because he had the intention of killing him a third time, to kill him permanently. It was an execution, not just Tommy killing him for the hell of it. And again, that doesn't make it okay, but you can't blame Tommy for killing Dream twice when he thought it would benefit everybody, including his best friend who had been seconds away from permadeath at Dream's hands, and especially not when that opinion was unanimously supported by 90% of the server. "so i'd say that was probably more than enough payback for that already." Normally I would agree with that, but "enough payback" is usually considered what is enough to keep the offender from repeating what they did, or what is enough to even out the hurt on both sides, which is meant to stop the offenses from both parties. So yeah, in any other situation, I'd say two deaths is enough, but in this situation I disagree because I think we can all agree that if Tommy had killed him twice and then they all just let him go Dream would've just doubled down in his efforts to control the server. Tommy attempting to kill Dream wasn't an attempt to dole out "payback" anyways- it had nothing to do with revenge or evening out the wrongdoings, so I don't really see why that's relevant regardless? Tommy killing Dream twice was an entirely different situation than everything Dream's done to him, which were entirely Dream's deliberate and purposeful decisions, and Tommy's actions were endorsed by most of the server. Tommy killing Dream does not erase the fear of what Dream could do in any way. First off on the next segment, I said "something tommy that he NEEDED to do for the safety of the entire server" which isn't grammatically correct lmao, it was a typo, "that" is supposed to say "thought". And yeah Tommy totally has a bad habit of blaming

everything on one person, but so does Jack. So did Niki. That's a human reaction. Not a fair one, but it's human, and Dream is certainly the closest person on the server to being to blame for everything. He isn't, and it's inaccurate the say that it is, but with the amount of stuff that is directly Dream's doing that completely and utterly traumatized Tommy, I can see why he would hold that opinion. He shouldn't blame Dream for everything, but that doesn't mean that blaming Dream for a lot of it isn't accurate. Because a lot of it was Dream. Just not all of it. "from dream's perspective he was trying to kill someone who was in a terrible situation... etc" yes, of course if you look from Dream's perspective it's an awful situation. But you said "from any other pov dream is just miserable and desperate and clinging on to any hope he can find so he doesn't just let himself die to end the pain" which I think is completely incorrect. Dream's is one of the only POVs which you could get this conclusion from, and we don't even have his POV. You can get this from Quackity's POV, maybe Sam's if you're giving it the benefit of the doubt, but it makes sense from EVERYONE ELSE'S point of view. Quackity and Dream are the only ones who know everything that's happened to Dream since Tommy left, and maybe Sam a little bit, and even then we don't have Quackity's POV of what he does in the prison so you can only make assumptions about what Dream is feeling and what has actually happened. From everyone else's POV, Dream's just been sitting in there plotting escape, which was true before Quackity came along. From Ranboo's POV, from Tubbo's POV, from Tommy's POV- hell, from Wilbur's POV, Dream's just been stewing in escape plans. Even Sapnap, one of Dream's closest friends, has never had any indication given to him of what Dream is actually going through. I think it's incredibly inaccurate to say that everyone but Tommy knows Dream is miserable and desperate. Tommy has every reason to believe that Dream will escape the prison and hurt the ones he loves. Yes, his level of fear and paranoia is due to PTSD, and those are trauma responses, absolutely. But I really don't think that inherently makes them irrational or illogical. Tommy thinking it was something he needed to do, in my opinion, actually rests on pretty sound logic. In the stream where Dream killed Tommy in the prison, he explicitly tells Tommy multiple times that he's going to escape and get revenge on everyone who's wronged him. Considering he straight up killed Tommy minutes after saying that, I think it's a fair assumption to make that should he escape, Dream would go around killing people he thinks have wronged him, namely Tubbo and other people Tommy cares greatly about. And at first, Tommy denies it! He agrees that Dream couldn't get out, and he straight up tells Dream that, and Dream then tells him he "has a plan". He won't tell Tommy what this plan is, but he straight up says he has one. And then one of the very last things Dream says to Tommy before he leaves the prison after he died was that he was going to bring back Wilbur and break out of the prison, even saying he'd use everyone as his puppets? Yes, PTSD can bring about irrational logic, irrational decisions, but that doesn't make every fear driven thought irrational. Literally everything Dream said to Tommy while he was in the prison were completely valid reasons for Tommy to believe that Dream would break out. You said PTSD makes you "terrified of something without being given present reason to think it'll hurt you", but I think Tommy has every reason to believe Dream can and will break out, and hurt either him or others. And now, with Wilbur out, it's even more likely that he will, with Wilbur considering Dream his hero. What you said about trauma recovery is true. Being able to move on and feel safe without causing further hurt and destruction is the ideal scenario. However I'd like to bring up that while the SMP holds many realistic themes, it isn't the same as in real life, in which somebody who has

traumatized you or hurt you in the past and has been imprisoned is very unlikely to be able to do those things again. This is a minecraft roleplay, where there is exactly one guard at the prison (who has shown leniency in visitors) and the abuser is a self proclaimed near-god with unimaginable power who can bring people back from the dead, who also has access to a favor from an incredibly powerful person outside that prison. I think treating the possibility of Dream escaping as completely impossible and therefore treating Tommy's fears of Dream escaping as completely irrational is very inaccurate. As much as I wish Tommy could move on without fear, the possibility of Dream being able to escape is far too high for me to try to say that Tommy thinking Dream will escape is illogical. I agree that hurt and destruction is never a fix, but when you think about it, literally how else would they stop Dream from doing what he himself has said he has planned other than someone killing him? Death and destruction is not a fix but there was no other option, especially in Tommy's mind. Dream is incredibly likely to escape from the prison, no matter how impenetrable it is, whether it be with help from Techno or Wilbur. That's why I don't really think killing Dream was an entirely irrational decision. I do not under any circumstances think it is the right one, nor do I believe Dream deserves to die. He deserves the right to redeem himself and live. But if we're talking solely from Tommy's perspective, it does make sense. "tommy was acting irrationally and doing something wrong and unnecessary because of his personal feelings and beliefs." yes. personal feelings and beliefs that were backed up by nearly everybody on the server, with his plan directly approved by two others. When I said Dream trying to escape was purely for self gain, I didn't mean that in a negative way. of course it's for self gain. Him trying to get away from an abusive situation was not for the benefit of anybody but himself, and I'm not saying that's a bad thing! That's how that works! He should be trying to get away from that situation, because he doesn't deserve it! My only point in saying that was to point out that Tommy was killing someone who had proven time and time again that he wanted to hurt him and his loved ones, in defense of himself and the server, where Dream killed an innocent man in order to escape pain. Both of those things are understandable, but immoral. One of those things is less moral than the other one, because it involves the death of an innocent. That was my only point. Yes, Dream is the victim in this situation, but he is a victim of Quackity and Sam. He is not a victim of Tommy or Ghostbur. He was an abuser to Tommy for up to four weeks directly, if you're talking just about exile, but he's been a huge danger to everybody in the server and has been plotting ways to control everybody for far longer than that. He's been hurting people for so much longer. I'd also like to point out that if somebody abuses another person for a week, and they stop after that, they don't stop being an abuser. An abuser is somebody who abuses. An abuser doesn't stop being an abuser the moment they stop directly hurting people, especially when Dream has shown explicitly that he does not regret it and wishes to continue that kind of behavior. that being said, Quackity is also still an abuser, and he still would be an abuser if he stopped torturing Dream. And yeah no I'd never say Dream deserved what was happening to him and that was never part of my argument? that's an incredibly unhealthy way of thinking, and I'd never claim that dream deserved the torture. I'd also say he didn't deserve solitary confinement, but the issue with that is that no one else is in the prison so it's either solitary confinement or letting him go free, which isn't exactly an option either. But yeah i completely disagree with the consensus that dream killing Ghostbur was justified. Understandable, yes! But justified, no. and above are the reasons I think tommy wanting to kill

dream was understandable. But, like you said, absolutely not right or okay in any way!! It's all wrong. I don't think anyone is completely in the right, and Dreams doesn't deserve anything that's happening to him. But that's just my two cents on it. You didn't come off too aggressive at all!! I hope I didn't, either. It's completely understandable to be defensive about c!Dream. There are so many bad takes about him out there and lots of people don't consider his perspective. The take that dream deserves more torture is disgusting and wrong. But yeah!! Thank you for discussing with me and I'd really like to hear your response if you're interested :)

all /dsmp /rp /nm, a reply to someone bringing up some good points and some i disagree with in the replies of this post

tw // physical & mental abuse, torture, murder

@bellovebug

the point about consent and sacrifice is a good call - ghostbur really didn't want to die, but to be fair, neither did dream.

i think that's the main reason why both the attempts, whether successful or not, were wrong. you don't really have the right to take away another person's life, though dream's life was being threatened, while tommy couldn't be more safe from a man who was stuck being physically and mentally abused - granted, tommy didn't know that, but dream also didn't know ghostbur wasn't aware this was a murder attempt. the point, both tommy and dream were wrong, and their actions are understandable to different degrees.

one could argue it was never mentioned that ghostbur stayed behind, and wilbur slowly getting his memories could be interpreted as them merging (which, that would be a much happier ending than having to choose between the two, wouldn't it), but those are all theories, so let's look at it from the most widely-accepted perspective.

it is true that ghostbur never hurt dream, he's really the only innocent person in all of this (ranboo and tubbo standing by while tommy ropes him into all of this with lies, sam ignoring the danger he was in and dream actually killing him) but dream has been being subjected to giant amounts of psychological and bodily pain for almost 50 days now (exile lasted around 13-26 days in comparison) on top of prolonged solitary confinement, classified as torture (because it is) by the UN, for about 85 days now (i think? might be more).

sam and quackity put dream in a situation where his only escape from possible death and months of constant agony leading up to it was killing someone who seemed like they had just tried to get him killed, and i think that's the best way to describe the situation + tommy getting ghostbur into this position in the first place.

not considering the fact that ghostbur was a hostage and both sam and tommy acted the worst possible way you could in a situation like that (ignorance and aggression), both of which drove dream to believe reviving wilbur was the only way.

"Ghostbur never murdered him three times lmao." to be fair, tommy murdered dream two times as well, and unlike tommy's two initial deaths which were in war context where both had consented to risking them for their ideals, and the third one being a direct consequence of solitary confinement or "double-celling" (i encourage you to look that stuff up, very dark but also interesting), tommy's killings of him were after he had surrendered and followed all orders given to him, and besides that being a war crime (let's be honest dsmp doesn't have the geneva convention) it was very cruel. so i'd say that was probably more than enough payback for that already.

"It's not something tommy WANTED to do, but something tommy that he NEEDED to do for the safety of the entire server." *something tommy thought he needed to do. i think we all can agree he has a bad habit of blaming everything bad that's ever happened on a single individual. like the moment wilbur got revived he went "wilbur this was all because of you" and i'm like. oh cool you've picked a new scapegoat lmao

i know from tommy's perspective he was trying to kill someone who has hurt him, but looking from dream's perspective he was trying to kill someone who was in a terrible situation, never given a chance to be on the good side and slowly losing hope for recovery + ever getting out of the hell that his life's become.

tommy's perspective is the only one from which dream's threatening in any way, from any other pov dream is just miserable and desperate and clinging on to any hope he can find so he doesn't just let himself die to end the pain. that is incredibly dark, which is why dream being treated as "oh look he's a big bad villain again he never changed" because of this incident rubs me the wrong way. he did change, even if not for the better, he was broken and is actively being broken and no one on the entire server is there to help him, while people like sapnap tell him they'll kill him if he tries to escape from the situation and people like sam stand by.

"genuine proof and logical reasons to believe would break out and hurt him and others." but that's the point of ptsd. it makes you think illogically and be terrified of something without being given present reason to think it'll hurt you. so yeah, as someone who's going through that, i understand tommy in a sense, but i don't think there's anything logical to it.

"He can't feel safe while dreams alive" but tommy can feel safe! there is no reason to kill dream, there has never been any reason to kill dream. that's what recovery from trauma is; being able to move past irrational fears based on past experiences. that is not, and will never be achieved by causing further hurt and destruction.

"purely for self gain, where tommy tried to kill dream for the benefit of himself and others" tommy was acting irrationally and doing something wrong and unnecessary because of his personal feelings and beliefs. the only danger present from dream was him giving quackity the revive book, because oh boy that man would/will do terrible things with it. idk if i'd call getting away from an abusive situation "purely for self-gain", but i digress.

"an abuser killing an innocent to free himself from what happened as a result of hurting so many other people" dream in this situation is the victim. dream was an abuser for two to four weeks, and granted he did terrible, irreversible harm to c!tommy, but at the present moment he's the victim who is trapped with no means of retaliation against those who are hurting him.

he did hurt people, but never even close to such a scale as is being done to him, so you can't call it karma, and even if in some alternate universe he did, no one deserves that kind of treatment. so, to rephrase; "a victim desperate to get away from a hopeless situation and killing an innocent who seemingly tried to help kill him, because his ultimatum in the situation of not being tortured anymore was not met."

"I don't think that excuses tommy wanting to kill dream, but i think it's a lot more justified and a lot more reasonable" all in all, i don't think it's justified at all. from tommy's perspective, the motivation is there, but it's still not "understandable" because it's just plain wrong with no real positives for anyone. dream reviving wilbur and holding ghostbur hostage is justified, and him doing it against ghostbur's wishes is understandable considering his situation, but not right in any way, shape or form.

hope this didn't come off as too aggressive! i'm just invested in the prison arc, and i guess people's bad takes (someone said dream deserved to be tortured more because of this, prime give me strength) kinda got to me so i made that post to kind of contextualize dream's actions, but i appreciate the interest in civil discussion! :]

[bellovebug]

Hello!!

also /dsmp /rp and /nm, of course

I think you're right on a lot of accounts- first and foremost, that both murder attempts are morally wrong. That's undeniable, and you're completely correct. I think saying they're both understandable to different degrees is really accurate. But before I get into other stuff, I'm pretty sure Revivebur saying Ghostbur being on the train conducted by Dream was a pretty solid message that Ghostbur was left behind there. Revivebur told Tommy that Ghostbur "came rolling into town, into my limbo- he's in my limbo, Tommy!" He said that present tense, implying Ghostbur was still there. And I think if Ghostbur had still been on the train when Wilbur was being revived, he would've talked about it. Him getting his memories back is a confusing thing, but I think Ghostbur is dead either way, whether he was killed and left behind or killed and dispersed into Alivebur's consciousness after he was revived, otherwise I assume they would've automatically merged when Ghostbur was killed, rather than being transported to Wilbur's limbo. But as for Dream- I agree with everything you said about solitary confinement. Like I said in my initial replies, Dream's actions are understandable, and it's easy to sympathize with them. That's not what I'm arguing against at all. All I'm saying is that Dream's actions aren't excusable or moral, and I'm not trying to say Tommy's are, either. However, I really don't think Tommy killing Dream in the bunker is at all comparable to what Dream's done to Tommy. Tommy's killings of Dream were completely and entirely backed up by almost everybody on the server. That doesn't make it okay, but I think it makes it less like murder and more like an execution. Everybody supported the decision to kill Dream, it was just Tommy holding the axe. Yes, Dream had followed their orders and all that, but it's not as if that would make them trust him not to do anything if left to his own devices, especially because mere minutes before he was actively telling Tommy how he planned to kill Tubbo and control the entire server through their attachments. Everyone there (which was 90% of the server) supported killing Dream, because their train of logic led them to believe it would've been for the good of the server, which was true. Tommy killed him twice because he had the intention of killing him a third time, to kill him permanently. It was an execution, not just Tommy killing him for the hell of it. And again, that doesn't make it okay, but you can't blame Tommy for killing Dream twice when he thought it would benefit everybody, including his best friend who had been seconds away from permadeath at Dream's hands, and especially not when that opinion was unanimously supported by 90% of the server. "so i'd say that was probably more than enough payback for that already." Normally I would agree with that, but "enough payback" is usually considered what is enough to keep the offender from repeating what they did, or what is enough to even out the hurt on both sides, which is meant to stop the offenses from both parties. So yeah, in any other situation, I'd say two deaths is enough, but in this situation I disagree because I think we can all agree that if Tommy had killed him twice and then they all just let him go Dream would've just doubled down in his efforts to control the server. Tommy attempting to kill Dream wasn't an attempt to dole out "payback" anyways- it had nothing to do with revenge or evening out the wrongdoings, so I don't really see why that's relevant regardless? Tommy killing Dream twice was an entirely different situation than everything Dream's done to him, which were entirely Dream's deliberate and purposeful decisions, and Tommy's actions were endorsed by most of the server. Tommy killing Dream does not erase the fear of what Dream could do in any way. First off on the next segment, I said "something tommy that he NEEDED to do for the safety of the entire server" which isn't grammatically correct lmao, it was a typo, "that" is supposed to say "thought". And yeah Tommy totally has a bad habit of blaming

everything on one person, but so does Jack. So did Niki. That's a human reaction. Not a fair one, but it's human, and Dream is certainly the closest person on the server to being to blame for everything. He isn't, and it's inaccurate the say that it is, but with the amount of stuff that is directly Dream's doing that completely and utterly traumatized Tommy, I can see why he would hold that opinion. He shouldn't blame Dream for everything, but that doesn't mean that blaming Dream for a lot of it isn't accurate. Because a lot of it was Dream. Just not all of it. "from dream's perspective he was trying to kill someone who was in a terrible situation... etc" yes, of course if you look from Dream's perspective it's an awful situation. But you said "from any other pov dream is just miserable and desperate and clinging on to any hope he can find so he doesn't just let himself die to end the pain" which I think is completely incorrect. Dream's is one of the only POVs which you could get this conclusion from, and we don't even have his POV. You can get this from Quackity's POV, maybe Sam's if you're giving it the benefit of the doubt, but it makes sense from EVERYONE ELSE'S point of view. Quackity and Dream are the only ones who know everything that's happened to Dream since Tommy left, and maybe Sam a little bit, and even then we don't have Quackity's POV of what he does in the prison so you can only make assumptions about what Dream is feeling and what has actually happened. From everyone else's POV, Dream's just been sitting in there plotting escape, which was true before Quackity came along. From Ranboo's POV, from Tubbo's POV, from Tommy's POV- hell, from Wilbur's POV, Dream's just been stewing in escape plans. Even Sapnap, one of Dream's closest friends, has never had any indication given to him of what Dream is actually going through. I think it's incredibly inaccurate to say that everyone but Tommy knows Dream is miserable and desperate. Tommy has every reason to believe that Dream will escape the prison and hurt the ones he loves. Yes, his level of fear and paranoia is due to PTSD, and those are trauma responses, absolutely. But I really don't think that inherently makes them irrational or illogical. Tommy thinking it was something he needed to do, in my opinion, actually rests on pretty sound logic. In the stream where Dream killed Tommy in the prison, he explicitly tells Tommy multiple times that he's going to escape and get revenge on everyone who's wronged him. Considering he straight up killed Tommy minutes after saying that, I think it's a fair assumption to make that should he escape, Dream would go around killing people he thinks have wronged him, namely Tubbo and other people Tommy cares greatly about. And at first, Tommy denies it! He agrees that Dream couldn't get out, and he straight up tells Dream that, and Dream then tells him he "has a plan". He won't tell Tommy what this plan is, but he straight up says he has one. And then one of the very last things Dream says to Tommy before he leaves the prison after he died was that he was going to bring back Wilbur and break out of the prison, even saying he'd use everyone as his puppets? Yes, PTSD can bring about irrational logic, irrational decisions, but that doesn't make every fear driven thought irrational. Literally everything Dream said to Tommy while he was in the prison were completely valid reasons for Tommy to believe that Dream would break out. You said PTSD makes you "terrified of something without being given present reason to think it'll hurt you", but I think Tommy has every reason to believe Dream can and will break out, and hurt either him or others. And now, with Wilbur out, it's even more likely that he will, with Wilbur considering Dream his hero. What you said about trauma recovery is true. Being able to move on and feel safe without causing further hurt and destruction is the ideal scenario. However I'd like to bring up that while the SMP holds many realistic themes, it isn't the same as in real life, in which somebody who has

traumatized you or hurt you in the past and has been imprisoned is very unlikely to be able to do those things again. This is a minecraft roleplay, where there is exactly one guard at the prison (who has shown leniency in visitors) and the abuser is a self proclaimed near-god with unimaginable power who can bring people back from the dead, who also has access to a favor from an incredibly powerful person outside that prison. I think treating the possibility of Dream escaping as completely impossible and therefore treating Tommy's fears of Dream escaping as completely irrational is very inaccurate. As much as I wish Tommy could move on without fear, the possibility of Dream being able to escape is far too high for me to try to say that Tommy thinking Dream will escape is illogical. I agree that hurt and destruction is never a fix, but when you think about it, literally how else would they stop Dream from doing what he himself has said he has planned other than someone killing him? Death and destruction is not a fix but there was no other option, especially in Tommy's mind. Dream is incredibly likely to escape from the prison, no matter how impenetrable it is, whether it be with help from Techno or Wilbur. That's why I don't really think killing Dream was an entirely irrational decision. I do not under any circumstances think it is the right one, nor do I believe Dream deserves to die. He deserves the right to redeem himself and live. But if we're talking solely from Tommy's perspective, it does make sense. "tommy was acting irrationally and doing something wrong and unnecessary because of his personal feelings and beliefs." yes. personal feelings and beliefs that were backed up by nearly everybody on the server, with his plan directly approved by two others. When I said Dream trying to escape was purely for self gain, I didn't mean that in a negative way. of course it's for self gain. Him trying to get away from an abusive situation was not for the benefit of anybody but himself, and I'm not saying that's a bad thing! That's how that works! He should be trying to get away from that situation, because he doesn't deserve it! My only point in saying that was to point out that Tommy was killing someone who had proven time and time again that he wanted to hurt him and his loved ones, in defense of himself and the server, where Dream killed an innocent man in order to escape pain. Both of those things are understandable, but immoral. One of those things is less moral than the other one, because it involves the death of an innocent. That was my only point. Yes, Dream is the victim in this situation, but he is a victim of Quackity and Sam. He is not a victim of Tommy or Ghostbur. He was an abuser to Tommy for up to four weeks directly, if you're talking just about exile, but he's been a huge danger to everybody in the server and has been plotting ways to control everybody for far longer than that. He's been hurting people for so much longer. I'd also like to point out that if somebody abuses another person for a week, and they stop after that, they don't stop being an abuser. An abuser is somebody who abuses. An abuser doesn't stop being an abuser the moment they stop directly hurting people, especially when Dream has shown explicitly that he does not regret it and wishes to continue that kind of behavior. that being said, Quackity is also still an abuser, and he still would be an abuser if he stopped torturing Dream. And yeah no I'd never say Dream deserved what was happening to him and that was never part of my argument? that's an incredibly unhealthy way of thinking, and I'd never claim that dream deserved the torture. I'd also say he didn't deserve solitary confinement, but the issue with that is that no one else is in the prison so it's either solitary confinement or letting him go free, which isn't exactly an option either. But yeah i completely disagree with the consensus that dream killing Ghostbur was justified. Understandable, yes! But justified, no. and above are the reasons I think tommy wanting to kill

dream was understandable. But, like you said, absolutely not right or okay in any way!! It's all wrong. I don't think anyone is completely in the right, and Dreams doesn't deserve anything that's happening to him. But that's just my two cents on it. You didn't come off too aggressive at all!! I hope I didn't, either. It's completely understandable to be defensive about c!Dream. There are so many bad takes about him out there and lots of people don't consider his perspective. The take that dream deserves more torture is disgusting and wrong. But yeah!! Thank you for discussing with me and I'd really like to hear your response if you're interested :)

all /dsmp /rp /nm, a reply to someone bringing up some good points and some i disagree with in the replies of this post

tw // physical & mental abuse, torture, murder

@bellovebug

the point about consent and sacrifice is a good call - ghostbur really didn't want to die, but to be fair, neither did dream.

i think that's the main reason why both the attempts, whether successful or not, were wrong. you don't really have the right to take away another person's life, though dream's life was being threatened, while tommy couldn't be more safe from a man who was stuck being physically and mentally abused - granted, tommy didn't know that, but dream also didn't know ghostbur wasn't aware this was a murder attempt. the point, both tommy and dream were wrong, and their actions are understandable to different degrees.

one could argue it was never mentioned that ghostbur stayed behind, and wilbur slowly getting his memories could be interpreted as them merging (which, that would be a much happier ending than having to choose between the two, wouldn't it), but those are all theories, so let's look at it from the most widely-accepted perspective.

it is true that ghostbur never hurt dream, he's really the only innocent person in all of this (ranboo and tubbo standing by while tommy ropes him into all of this with lies, sam ignoring the danger he was in and dream actually killing him) but dream has been being subjected to giant amounts of psychological and bodily pain for almost 50 days now (exile lasted around 13-26 days in comparison) on top of prolonged solitary confinement, classified as torture (because it is) by the UN, for about 85 days now (i think? might be more).

sam and quackity put dream in a situation where his only escape from possible death and months of constant agony leading up to it was killing someone who seemed like they had just tried to get him killed, and i think that's the best way to describe the situation + tommy getting ghostbur into this position in the first place.

not considering the fact that ghostbur was a hostage and both sam and tommy acted the worst possible way you could in a situation like that (ignorance and aggression), both of which drove dream to believe reviving wilbur was the only way.

"Ghostbur never murdered him three times lmao." to be fair, tommy murdered dream two times as well, and unlike tommy's two initial deaths which were in war context where both had consented to risking them for their ideals, and the third one being a direct consequence of solitary confinement or "double-celling" (i encourage you to look that stuff up, very dark but also interesting), tommy's killings of him were after he had surrendered and followed all orders given to him, and besides that being a war crime (let's be honest dsmp doesn't have the geneva convention) it was very cruel. so i'd say that was probably more than enough payback for that already.

"It's not something tommy WANTED to do, but something tommy that he NEEDED to do for the safety of the entire server." *something tommy thought he needed to do. i think we all can agree he has a bad habit of blaming everything bad that's ever happened on a single individual. like the moment wilbur got revived he went "wilbur this was all because of you" and i'm like. oh cool you've picked a new scapegoat lmao

i know from tommy's perspective he was trying to kill someone who has hurt him, but looking from dream's perspective he was trying to kill someone who was in a terrible situation, never given a chance to be on the good side and slowly losing hope for recovery + ever getting out of the hell that his life's become.

tommy's perspective is the only one from which dream's threatening in any way, from any other pov dream is just miserable and desperate and clinging on to any hope he can find so he doesn't just let himself die to end the pain. that is incredibly dark, which is why dream being treated as "oh look he's a big bad villain again he never changed" because of this incident rubs me the wrong way. he did change, even if not for the better, he was broken and is actively being broken and no one on the entire server is there to help him, while people like sapnap tell him they'll kill him if he tries to escape from the situation and people like sam stand by.

"genuine proof and logical reasons to believe would break out and hurt him and others." but that's the point of ptsd. it makes you think illogically and be terrified of something without being given present reason to think it'll hurt you. so yeah, as someone who's going through that, i understand tommy in a sense, but i don't think there's anything logical to it.

"He can't feel safe while dreams alive" but tommy can feel safe! there is no reason to kill dream, there has never been any reason to kill dream. that's what recovery from trauma is; being able to move past irrational fears based on past experiences. that is not, and will never be achieved by causing further hurt and destruction.

"purely for self gain, where tommy tried to kill dream for the benefit of himself and others" tommy was acting irrationally and doing something wrong and unnecessary because of his personal feelings and beliefs. the only danger present from dream was him giving quackity the revive book, because oh boy that man would/will do terrible things with it. idk if i'd call getting away from an abusive situation "purely for self-gain", but i digress.

"an abuser killing an innocent to free himself from what happened as a result of hurting so many other people" dream in this situation is the victim. dream was an abuser for two to four weeks, and granted he did terrible, irreversible harm to c!tommy, but at the present moment he's the victim who is trapped with no means of retaliation against those who are hurting him.

he did hurt people, but never even close to such a scale as is being done to him, so you can't call it karma, and even if in some alternate universe he did, no one deserves that kind of treatment. so, to rephrase; "a victim desperate to get away from a hopeless situation and killing an innocent who seemingly tried to help kill him, because his ultimatum in the situation of not being tortured anymore was not met."

"I don't think that excuses tommy wanting to kill dream, but i think it's a lot more justified and a lot more reasonable" all in all, i don't think it's justified at all. from tommy's perspective, the motivation is there, but it's still not "understandable" because it's just plain wrong with no real positives for anyone. dream reviving wilbur and holding ghostbur hostage is justified, and him doing it against ghostbur's wishes is understandable considering his situation, but not right in any way, shape or form.

hope this didn't come off as too aggressive! i'm just invested in the prison arc, and i guess people's bad takes (someone said dream deserved to be tortured more because of this, prime give me strength) kinda got to me so i made that post to kind of contextualize dream's actions, but i appreciate the interest in civil discussion! :]