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scoobydoodean · 3 months

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what’s your opinion on “lebanon”? as it actually is in the show and how fans/fic writers interpret/approach it.

cause i’ve been binge-reading “lebanon” fics and i’ve noticed two patterns: sam might argue with john or he stays calm but regardless he preaches to dean about what a terrible father john was, and dean always falls back into his performing and just keeps defending john. now i love all that angst, really i love it so much, these fics are phenomenally written… but i’m just wondering if i’m crazy to think that dean wouldn’t actually fall back into that role to such an extent, and whether the episode actually kinda got it right by having dean feel secure with his family as it is. iirc my issue with the episode is that neither dean nor sam got to express any issues with john in an honest but civil way (and that john is too nice) but that still i liked dean’s expression of security, but tbh it’s been awhile since i last watched it so maybe i’m missing/misremembering smth… thanks!

One of the strangest things I see in fandom is how many people's sense of how Sam views John versus how Dean views John is just flat out wrong. The idea that Dean is always defending John while Sam is always criticizing him the whole show is negated over and over and over in the actual show itself—extremely overtly.

There's two issues here in my mind that lend to this fandom problem.

The fandom accepting Sam and Dean's "John Narratives" at face value in the early episodes of season 1. For example, watching 1.08 "Bugs", where Dean claims to have no resentments toward John and says Sam also was a dick during Sam and John's fight, and going, "Well there we go. Dean has no resentments and refuses to criticize John but Sam will." At this point, we already know from 1.06 "Skin" that Dean does have resentments toward John for not appearing to care about him and for abandoning him, and we get further indications in 1.11, and 1.21 in this season alone. Another example is Sam and Dean's clashes in 1.10 "Asylum" and in 1.11 "Scarecrow", which are largely analyzed by the fandom as moments where Dean is blindly following orders when they have some other, better option Sam is pushing, and Dean is just refusing to go along with Sam's much better ideas because he's too focused on believing their dad knows best... when that is not actually what is happening at all. Sam's alternative plans in the beginning of 1.10 and 1.11 are absolutely stupid. In 1.10, he wants to call the FBI on John to find him. That's his big idea—instead of following the coordinates John just sent them and seeing if he's there. In 1.11, Sam's big bright idea on finding John is to abandon some people to die on a time-sensitive case so he can go search all of Sacramento for John with nothing but an area code. His plans are dumb, plain and simple—and while we do see Dean hiding his own resentments in these episodes too, that does not remain true—which brings me to the other issue here.

Fandom doesn't leave room for the brothers perspectives on John and their outward expressions of those perspectives to shift or mature over the series. This is particularly funny because their perspectives are literally swapping over the course of season 1, and have pretty much fully swapped by 2.02.

Sam's shifting season 1 perspective on John

What actually happens in season 1, is that Sam, who starts out burning with resentment and hurt toward John for disowning him and being a smothering drill sergeant and absent, binge-drinking dad, slowly begins empathizing him because he's now suffered a similar trauma and is having extreme difficulty coping with it himself! Sam's empathy for and understanding of John (and hell—even respect for John handling it as well as Sam thinks he was capable) is already beginning to show in 1.02—where Sam asks Dean "How does Dad do it?" (i.e., deal with the same burning rage and desperation for vengeance that is tearing Sam apart) (gifset). In 1.04, he learns John was bragging about Sam's accomplishments to other people (gifset). In 1.08, when Dean tells Sam that John was never actually disappointed in him—that he was scared Sam would get hurt if he wasn't around (gifset here) a lot of Sam's anger about the Stanford fight fades. He ends the episode saying "Dad did the best he could" (a repeated quote often misattributed as coming more from Dean) and saying he wants to find him to apologize to him for the things he said (gifset). John and Sam share a heartfelt, tearful hug in 1.16—at the end of which Sam begs John not to leave, and in 1.20, John himself apologizes and explains what was going on in his head when they fought, and it ends with them smiling and laughing as they acknowledge they understand each other and they're the same. I track Sam and John's relationship through the tag, #we probably have a lot more in common than just about anyone because Sam says that during that conversation in 1.20 (gifset).

Dean's shifting season 1 perspective on John

At the same time this shift is happening in Sam, we see Dean going the exact opposite direction. He starts out believing John has their best interest at heart even if they don't understand his actions, but the resentment is there too (1.06). In 1.09 and in 1.12, Dean needs help desperately, and John doesn't answer. While Sam is learning that John actually cares about him, Dean is growing more and more concerned that John doesn't care about him (Dean) specifically. We see this resentment start to come out (season 1 compilation set here) in 1.20, when John says he wants to keep the boys safe and that's why he's ditching them, and Dean calls it "A bunch of crap". Dean begins standing up to John to his face from this episode onward—finishing 1.20 with a "Yeah well we saved your ass" in response to John saying they disobeyed him. In 1.21, John tries to get on his case, and Dean lays into him about not answering the phone and specifically about abandoning Dean when Dean needed him in 1.09 and 1.12. In 1.22, Sam tries to get his way by telling Dean that John wouldn't want them to bring The Colt to save him, and Dean yells "I don't care what Dad wants!" and then when Sam starts throwing the blame on him for everything, Dean says,

Well, you and Dad are a lot more alike than I thought, you know that? You both can’t wait to sacrifice yourself for this thing. But you know what? I’m gonna be the one to bury you. You’re selfish, you know that? You don’t care about anything but revenge.

Dean has compared Sam and John more than once during the series, and it has never ever been a compliment.

Sam and Dean in the rest of the series

Sam and Dean's interactions about John in rest of the series are... almost universally the opposite of what the fanfics you've picked up suggest. Their interactions almost always show Dean criticizing John and Sam keeping silent or defending him, or reiterating that John did what he had to/the best he could.

Gifset on Dean's whole season 2 "Fuck John Winchester" vibe here.

In 2.01, Dean shouts at John for (it appears) abandoning him to die:

DEAN Come on, Dad. You've gotta help me. I've gotta get better, I've gotta get back in there. I mean, you haven't called a soul for help. You haven't even tried. Aren't you going to do anything? Aren't you even going to say anything? I've done everything you have ever asked me. Everything. I have given everything I've ever had. And you're just going to sit there and you're going to watch me die? I mean, what the hell kind of father are you?

Sam and John have a horrible fight where John blames him for Dean's condition and Sam tells him to go to Hell only for him to make a demon deal and literally go to Hell that same day (gifset) and Sam tries to start another fight right before John dies but John refuses to engage (gifset). The result ends up being that Sam and Dean have fully swapped places on John by 2.02 with John's death as the catalyst. John's death leaves Sam with regrets that their last interaction was Sam trying to start a fight (2.02). He decides he wants to hunt in John's memory (2.02) (gifset1, gifset2) while a part of Dean desperately wants to quit the life altogether—he's clawing the walls but feels helplessly trapped (2.09, 2.10, 2.20).

Sam defends John while Dean suggests John lead them down the wrong path with a dogmatic rule book (2.03). He demands they go to Lawrence so he can place John's dog tags over Mary's grave (2.04). He spends the season regurgitating John's orders, pushing Dean to do what John told him to do (2.11, 2.14, 2.20) while Dean wants to quit the life (2.09, 2.10, 2.20) and burns with anger toward John. In 2.10, Dean says "I wish to god he'd never opened his mouth!" about John.

In 2.11 "Playthings":

SAM (shoving DEAN to face him) Dean! Dad told you to do it, you have to. DEAN Yeah, well, Dad's an ass! (SAM frowns in confusion) He never should have said anything! I mean, you don't do that, you don't, you don't lay that kind of crap on your kids! SAM No. He was right to say it! Who knows what I might become? Even now, everyone around me dies!

We see Dean seething with resentment while Sam defends John's orders and tries to enforce them on Dean, carrying the legacy of their father in more ways than one.

Over and over, we get indications that a part of John treated Dean as disposable while he sheltered Sam, and that Dean is increasingly aware of the impact that's difference has had on him—to the point he realizes his father's neglect and abuse is the reason he isn't fighting to save himself in 3.10 "Dream A Little Dream Of Me". Dean and John's relationship is intentionally paralleled with a physically abusive relationship between a father and son in this same episode (gifset, meta), and in this episode, Dean rejects his father as an "obsessed bastard", calls Bobby his father (gifset), and decides from this point forward, he's going to fight to save himself from his demon deal because fuck John Winchester.

DREAM DEAN Dad knew who you really were. A good soldier and nothing else. Daddy's blunt little instrument. Your own father didn't care whether you lived or died. Why should you? DEAN Son of a bitch! My father was an obsessed bastard! All that crap he dumped on me, about protecting Sam! That was his crap! He's the one who couldn't protect his family! He– who wasn't there for Sam! I always was! He wasn't fair! I didn't deserve what he put on me! And I don't deserve to go to Hell!

And yeah! Dean also still loves John! And more than that—he craves John's protection. We see this in 3.14 "Long Distance Call" when the Crocotta calls to Dean as John from beyond the grave, telling Dean exactly what Dean wants to hear: "I never wanted this. Never. You're my boy, I love you. I can't watch you to go to hell, Dean," and telling Dean he can save him. This is pure longing for the love and protection Dean has always desired from John but feels like he's never received. Instead, he's always felt disposable.

In season 4? Oh boy... we get this incredible bit in 4.10 between Dean and Anna:

ANNA I was stationed on earth 2,000 years. Just... watching... silent... invisible... out on the road... sick for home... waiting on orders from an unknowable father I can't begin to understand. So don't tell me that -- DEAN laughs. ANNA What is so funny? What? DEAN Nothing. Sorry. It's just...I can relate.

Then in after meeting Adam in 4.19, Sam and Dean have a fight about whether to bring Adam hunting with them or leave him to a normal life:

DEAN 'Hunting is life. You can't have connections.' Dad gave you that exact same speech, remember? It was just before you ditched us for Stanford. You hated Dad for saying that stuff, and now you're quoting him? SAM Yeah, well, turns out Dad was right. DEAN Since when? SAM Since always. Dean, when I look at Adam, you know what I see? DEAN A normal kid. SAM No. Meat. Because the demons and monsters out there, that's all he is. I hated Dad for a long time. I did. But now I think I understand. So we didn't have a dog and a white picket fence. So what? Dad did right by us. He taught us how to protect ourselves. Adam deserves the same. DEAN Listen to yourself, man. SAM You think I’m wrong? DEAN I think it's too late for us. This is our life. This is who we are, okay? And it's fine. I accept that. But with Adam, he's still got a chance, man. He can go to school. He could be a doctor.

Sam says John did right by them. Dean thinks he absolutely didn't, but they can't change who they are now—they can only keep others from falling down the same path.

At the end of the episode? Oh boy...

DEAN You know, I finally get why you and Dad butted heads so much. You two were practically the same person. SAM looks over. DEAN I mean, I worshipped the guy, you know? I dressed like him, I acted like him, I listen to the same music. But you were more like him than I will ever be. And I see that now. SAM I'll take that as a compliment. DEAN You take it any way you want.

It is NOT a compliment.

In 5.16, Dean is confronted with god's intentional absence, and burning with resentment, says to Joshua,

Forget it. Just another dead-beat dad with a bunch of excuses, right. I’m used to that. I’ll muddle through.

In 5.13, Sam takes the opportunity presented to him by young John's presence to defend their father and tell John that he forgives him (gifset).

JOHN Look, how long have you known about this...hunting stuff? SAM Pretty much forever. My dad raised me in it. JOHN You're serious? Who the hell does that to a kid? SAM Well, I mean, for the record, Mary's parents did. JOHN I don't care. You know, what kind of irresponsible bastard lets a child anywhere near—Y-you know, you could've been killed! SAM I, uh...came kind of close. SAM laughs. JOHN The number it must've done on your head...Your father was supposed to protect you. SAM He was trying. He died trying. Believe me. SAM sits down on the bench under a window. SAM I used to be mad at him. I—I mean, I used to... I used to hate the guy. But now I—I... I get it. He was...just doing the best he could. And he was trying to keep it together in—in—in this impossible situation. See... My mom, um... She was amazing, beautiful, and she was the love of his life. And she got killed. And...I think he would have gone crazy if he didn't do something. Truth is, um, my dad died before I got to tell him that I understand why he did what he did. And I forgive him for what it did to us. I do. And I just—I love him.

What Lebanon does is present Sam with the opportunity to reiterate his forgiveness toward a John who understands the context:

SAM Dad… for me? That fight… that was a lifetime ago. I don’t even remember what I said, and – I mean… yeah. You know what? You did some messed-up things. But I don’t… I mean, when I think about you… [voice breaks] and I think about you a lot… I don’t think about our – our fights. I think about you… I think about you on the floor of that hospital. And I think about how I never got to say goodbye. JOHN Sam. Son. I am so sorry. SAM I’m sorry, too. But you did your best, dad. You – you fought for us, and you loved us, and… that’s enough.

So yeah! The fanfic narrative here where Sam is Mr. "Dad was bad" and Dean is Mr. "Nooo dad did the best he could" IS ABSOLUTE NONSENSE!!!!!

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mittensmorgul · 1 year

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Okay, I have a lot of thoughts i’ve been rotating for a while now, and even if I don’t have a coherent overarching meta composed in my head yet, I feel I need to at least record some of these thoughts for future reference. Buckle up. It’s a lot.

I’ll start with a few overarching themes and points that cover the entire series, and then move into the specifics of the most recent episode, the PENULTIMATE episode lol, 1.12. gonna just bullet point these for ease of reference purposes:

-a ridiculous percentage of the series has dealt with monsters/entities with their own little pocket dimensions. yes, this was a thing the original series touched on occasionally-- djinn dream universes created entirely inside someone’s mind, gabriel’s eternal tuesday time loop, gabriel’s weirdo tv land, the soul eater nest in 11.16, and even chuck’s bar at the end of the universe from 11.20. Or like... the entire concept of alternate universes introduced in 6.15 The French Mistake that may or may not have been a construct by Balthazar... up to interpretation... and the final seasons wrangling of several specific alternate universes

so far in The Winchesters we have, by episode:

(under a cut because this got long lol)

*eta: since it’s been pointed out to me that not everyone’s managed to memorize all the spn prime episodes by number, here’s the Mittens Decoder Page on the superwiki by episode number: http://www.supernaturalwiki.com/Category:Episodes

1.01 the Loup Garou and the Monster Trap Box (which can only be recharged by things that are “not of this earth”, specifically they will learn it’s a transporter device that sends creatures trapped by it back to whatever world’s item has “charged” the box) they were searching for, hidden in a secret chamber for years.

1.02 La Tunda, who lures victims into her little pocket dimension trap via roots pulling them underground. she can only be killed by being stabbed with a piece of her own wood/body

1.03 the Bori Baba who lures victims into a pocket dimension trap via a burlap sack. he can only be destroyed (and his captives freed) by them willingly relinquishing/destroying the beloved thing he lured them with.

1.04 Mars Neto who lures victims into a pocket dimension trap and makes them relive trauma and fight him. Could only be defeated/rendered mortal when the amphora containing his power was shattered.

1.05 djinn... but these are slightly different than any of the djinn we know from original canon. they can form a link directly into someone else’s mind and control them out in the real world, not just in a pocket universe trap... it turns victims’ own minds into the trap

1.06 a vengeful spirit of a POSSESSED VAMPIRE of an entirely new variety, who broke free of a trap where he’d been locked for decades, because his friends felt helpless against his growing darkness/involvement with dark magic that was twisting who he was. Lata had to force him to confront that and confess, and the possessing spirit chooses to leave John in an act of doing the right thing.

1.07 straight-up Akrida-- the monsters apparently from an alternate universe trying to invade our world to devour it all (reminiscent of the tentacle monsters Sam and Dean found trapped in a different MoL capitulum clubhouse and accidentally released in 12.17, but bugs instead of tentacles...). They are our overarching Big Bad, who bridge the gap between pocket dimension and possession/mind control that surrounds so many of the themes of the series. but this episode explores them in more depth (right down to the underground lair where the queen was trapped). I feel the need to mention it somewhere, but the akrida used radio waves as a lure for all the bizarre monsters our core four have been dealing with all season, connecting the akrida directly to every other specific monster we’ve seen them confront. Episode literally called “Reflections” which leads me into:

1.08 Loki/Gabriel? Who I already mentioned above as a creator of pocket dimensions and messing with minds in original canon. And for some reason at the end of the episode, he’s trapped inside a mirror, a bit of lore we’ve never seen connected to Loki or Gabriel leaving me to wonder how trapped he actually is... A reflection, as it were.

1.09 vampires... but more the sort we already know from spn prime canon. except the whole mission around them involves a PROPHECY unwittingly stamped onto John’s hand. We’re reminded that prophecy can’t be avoided, BUT you can control some of the circumstances AROUND the prophecy. Context matters, and tiny glimpses of things aren’t representative of the whole truth. (4.18 anyone...)

1.10 A very Magnus-coded (who if you remember created his own little pocket universe to live in with his monster zoo and collection of supernatural relics) disgraced MoL who lies about his identity, his past, and his motives for returning to the clubhouse now. Literally wants to transfer his and his wife’s consciousnesses into John and Mary’s bodies to get back the life the Akrida had stolen from them and he felt they were owed... with no self-awareness that this actually made HIM the monster in this case.

1.11 the Shadow Spirits generated by Maggie’s magical bracelet that both showed the wearer the truth about hidden motivations AND could also become a trap. Carlos and Lata are pulled into a shadowy trap (not just in their minds! they are no longer physically in the house! they were pulled bodily into some sort of pocket universe BY A SHADOW (you know, the proper term for the Empty Entity in spn prime canon?). Where their only hope for escape was Lata confessing her deep, dark hidden secret to Carlos. She was terrified that he would reject her if he knew the truth about her, that Carlos would be ashamed of her, but he reconfirmed that he loves her unconditionally, and nothing will ever change that.

She’d felt guilt and responsibility for the actions of others for so long, but Carlos helped her see the whole picture again, that it was not her fault, that she’d been helpless to circumstance and wasn’t at fault for her father’s bad actions-- even to the point where they led to the death of an innocent woman.

But the other function of this bracelet, used on Betty to show her the TRUTH of the akrida-possessed people finally gave US a look at how akrida possession works. It’s not just the little spikes in the neck doing the controlling through chemicals or whatever, they seem to function like some sort of weird antenna that connects them via mysterious green tentacles of light up into the sky. Where do they go? I thought the akrida queen was buried underground, not in the sky? Who or what is pulling those poisonous green strings?

aside to mention lata found the bracelet hidden in A CAN OF RAT POISON, along with a tasty treat that carlos devoured. the rat poison packaging was just a decoy to keep anyone else from accidentally finding Maggie’s bracelet (and her stash of tasty treats lol)

1.12 LIMBO’S HOUSE OF HAPPY. a fucking CARNIVAL TENT of a pocket universe, run by a literal clown who made a deal with a witch to create a perfect place where he would never feel sad again. (somebody PLEASE tell me this feels like 15.20... from the rando pie festival where Dean STILL doesn’t get to eat pie and has it smashed in his face instead, and then gets hung on a rusty nail after fighting off some vampire clowns/mimes and sent to a weirdo version of Heaven where he can apparently never worry about anything again? freaking dystopian, ffs... but also... very much a thematic summary of the entire metanarrative plot of the Winchesters as a whole...)

I’m gonna spend the rest of this post absolutely yelling about this last one. While watching, my brain just kept lighting up with references to past canon.

A CLOWN named LIMBO.

Of course, when we think about clowns in Supernatural, we always think of Sam’s lifelong fear of them. Apparently connected to the fact that Dean used to leave him at Plucky Pennywhistle’s as a kid, but also... almost every reference to clowns in canon prime are connected either to Azazel or to Lucifer himself.

My very first thought about LIMBO the CLOWN was 11.10 The Devil in the Details. Rowena being the one to magically assemble the “stage cage” where they’d summoned Lucifer to question him about Sam’s visions and dealing with the Darkness, and Rowena appearing in this episode (even if in an entirely different plot arc, she’s still ~there~) feels very relevant.

But we’d known that Sam’s visions in s11 were foreshadowing a return of Lucifer and possibly a trip to the cage. But... Clowns Specifically were used to foreshadow this. In 11.07 Plush, Sam was trapped IN AN ELEVATOR with a murderous clown, and the overhead shot as Sam frees the man in the clown suit from possession... looks like cage bars (screencaps from HotN):

Remember, this was TWO EPISODES before Crowley leads Sam and Rowena INTO LIMBO in 11.09. LIMBO. Where Sam’s worst nightmare becomes reality and he’s literally trapped IN A FAKE CAGE, IN LIMBO, WITH THE ULTIMATE CLOWN:

(screenshot from the superwiki page for 11.09)

LIMBO is where Cas says yes to possession by Lucifer, and right after this kills Rowena for her trouble, after she confesses that she’s the only one who knows the spell to force him back into the actual cage.

From 11.09:

Crowley: We are in the furthest reaches of Hell, Limbo, where I send unruly souls for timeout. Sam: This is where I meet with Lucifer? Crowley: What it lacks in ambience it makes up for in security. They come to an empty cage. Rowena paints sigils on the cage, while the thunderstorm continues to rage. Crowley: Makes your flesh crawl, doesn’t it Moose? I get it. I’m the King of this place. It’s still not my cup of tea. Sam: I don’t know, Crowley. I’d say it suits you. Dark. Empty. Crowley: Fascinating; the utter contempt, when I’m in the midst of saving the Winchester’s bacon, again. Sam: The point of this is to save everyone’s bacon, including yours. Let’s just hope she knows what she’s doing. This cell won't hold crap if the warding is not right. Rowena: Don’t you worry about me, Samuel. I’m a professional. Crowley: Are you certain you can do this without actually opening the Cage? Rowena: We are about to find out, aren’t we.

Rowena BELIEVED Lucifer would become her protector, bring her peace, security, power. But it was all a lie. And in this episode, she seeks out Ada under the pretense of talking to the specific demon Ada had trapped in a bonsai tree, looking for information about her son...

Let’s detour through some other clown references from spn, just for funsies. The cold open victim in this episode was the only one who could see the magical tent, and his friend saw and heard nothing of it (he didn’t have the magic ticket). It called back to the children in 2.02 Everybody Loves a Clown. They were the only ones who could see the Rakshasa clown, who used those children to gain entry to their homes to devour their parents.

There’s also the ghost of John Wayne Gacy in 14.13, an episode where Dean’s wish to reunite his family is fulfilled, even for a brief moment. (the ghost will return in 14.20 when Chuck cracks Hell open). But specifically this clown is tied directly to John and Mary reuniting before John chooses to go back to his own time to save everyone else and restore the timeline. John will only vaguely remember the events as some sort of pleasant dream. It comes with a side of Dean accepting his life, not WANTING to change it because everything he’s endured has combined to make him the person he’s become. GROWTH DOT GIF.

(and in 15.01 the clown ghost nearly gets sam, again...)

Which brings me back to the Akrida. Our mind-controlling, possessing archvillain of this entire narrative. Whose goal seems to revolve around being freed from a sort of cage to run riot across creation. They have apparently shifted reality, all because Dean knocked over some first mysterious domino and unleashing the chain of events he’s been recounting through the entire series.

Was that inciting incident going back in time to deliver the note to John? Was it giving John the key to the MoL clubhouse that sparked not only what appears to be a massive change in the timeline from what we’d known from spn prime, but possibly also GENERATED the akrida as a monster specifically that creates these sorts of pocket dimensions to devour?

Also, brief aside to mention DEANNA. Like, the entire early part of the season revolved around Mary concerned about Samuel being “missing.” And yet, we also learned that Deanna had disappeared to points unknown. She hadn’t been seen by anyone in MONTHS, was last assumed to be hunting with some group in Michigan (? I think? top of my head reference), and yet NOBODY has showed the same concern for her whereabouts as they collectively did for Samuel. It’s almost like they all have some sort of weird amnesia about her at this point. They just... aren’t concerned about her at all, and haven’t even mentioned her in weeks. Which makes me think she’s at the center of all of this. I would be 100% unsurprised if she’s the one possessed by the Akrida queen at this point. because otherwise, WHERE TF IS SHE. But also, WHY TF IS NOBODY ELSE SEEMINGLY CONCERNED ABOUT HER AT ALL?! It’s WEIRD.

I am generally losing my mind over all of this, and don’t know what Big Secret will be revealed in the finale, but hooBOY I am prepared to scream about it for weeks. This is all just stashed here for my own future reference purposes, and I’m sure I’ll come back and add more things as I think of them, but heck this will have to suffice for now :’D

#the winchesters #spnwin s1 spoilers #spnwin 1.12 #spn 11.07 #spn 11.09 #spn 11.10 #spn 2.02 #spn 14.13 #spn 14.20 #spn 15.01 #spn 7.14 #spn 15.20

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