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nineteensixtieschikadee · 5 years

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Jon Snow and his Two Fathers: A balance between Ice and Fire

You know what I utterly despise about what Double Dicks did with Jon Snow’s character in the show--aside from omitting the whole Azor Ahai storyline, and making the entire R+L=J plot absolutely meaningless?? It’s that Double Dicks apparently “FORGOT” that aside from Ned Stark, Rhaegar Targaryen was ALSO Jon Snow’s father. Now lemme explain what I mean. Yes, the show has established however did NOT PAY OFF R+L=J. And not only was this whole plot line the entire purpose of Jon Snow’s arc, it was also the whole backbone of GOT’s history, 20 years before it began. And Rhaegar Targaryen was the center of it all.

Part of what makes !BOOK Jon such a fan favorite, and why he would arguably make an EXCELLENT ruler/king, is because NOT ONLY does he have his adoptive father’s HONOR AND MORALS, he also has his biological father’s PASSION, CHARISMA AND LEADERSHIP SKILLS. Meaning that while Jon has a strong set of honor and morals--which is known to get you killed in GOT--his passion and natural borne leadership skills help BALANCE those things out that effectively makes not only a WORTHY leader, but also a POWERFUL one.

I started rereading the books again since the show’s garbage now, and just in the first couple of Jon chapters in AGOT you can already see how much Jon is growing and developing into that of a worthy leader. For example, when Jon first enters the Night’s Watch, he is almost somewhat of a formidable bully to the other night’s watch members. Not only because of his ego of being a “highborn raised bastard,” but because he is actually a better swordsman than they are. (Which he proves.) And also because the other members keep teasing him about how he’s a bastard with no mother. It isn’t until Donal Noye calls Jon out on his bullshit, and Tyrion once again having to reaffirm Jon of his identity by letting him know that his title can be used as an effective armor, that Jon beings to realize his mistakes and then tries to become better. And by his next chapter, Jon is already TEACHING the other night’s watch members how to sword fight effectively. He begins to be much more patient with them, and each time they fall, he helps pick them back up.

And it’s not like no one else can see his leadership skills. Like if you didn’t think Jon could become a great king because he lacks, why do you think Jeor Mormont chose Jon to be his successor? From the point when Jeor gives Jon Longclaw, he begins to train him under his wing, because he saw potential in Jon. Jon has the skills and the mind to become a leader. A GOOD ruler. And no, don’t tell me Jon is too dumb to become a good king/ruler. Because !BOOK JON is not. Let’s compare this to Sansa. Sansa stans claim that Sansa would be a good ruler because she was trained under Cersei, Littlefinger, Olenna, Margery, and to some extent, Tyrion? But if you notice, all her mentors are DIRTY. While they are smart, they’re cheaters and DISHONORABLE people. And have proven multiple times that they wouldn’t be good rulers.

Jon on the other hand, has had 3 mentors. Jeor Mormont, Mance Rayder, and Stannis Baratheon. (Technically Jeor is the only mentor. But Jon has served under the wing of both Mance and Stannis.--Especially after he becomes Lord Commander.) Two of Jon’s “mentors” are KINGS. While the other is simply an “ARMY LEADER”. What do all 3 of these leaders have in common? People follow them, not only because they have to, but because they are seen as “worthy to be followed.” All 3 of them not only have effective leadership skills, but they DO NOT have “Shit for Honor.” At least, to some extent. Jeor poses as the leader that knows the REAL THREAT beyond the wall. And that’s what he trains Jon for. Becoming the leader that will become the shield that guides and protects the realm. Mance is King that wants to guide his people to safety because of the THREAT OF THE OTHERS. (White Walkers.) And Stannis the Mannis is the RIGHTFUL KING of Westeros. He is cold and harsh. But he is HONORABLE and JUST. He is the most effective ruler out of the 3, and part of the reason is because of Jon. To those who say Jon cannot be a good ruler, guess who’s the man who suggested Stannis fight the Ironborn at Deepwood, and in turn, win the support of the Mormonts and the freefolk? When Stannis is fighting battle outside of Winterfell, it’s JON who maintains all the political shit for Stannis back at the wall. You can kinda say Jon was acting “Hand of the King,” while Davos was at White Harbor. And you can be damn sure that he was good at it. It’s not up until the Arya--pink letter plot in ADWD where we see Jon start to lose it a little before ultimately succumbing to love over duty.

ALL of these traits and effectiveness to rule, came from one man. HIS BIOLOGICAL FATHER, Rhaegar Targaryen. He didn’t get it from Ned, who we we know was a pretty weak Hand for the King. He got it from Rhaegar, the man who conspired to usurp his father from the throne as he was growing madder by the day. (In theory.) From Barristan’s pov, Rhaegar would’ve made a BETTER KING than all the 3 kings he’s served previously. He was DETERMINED, DELIBERATE, AND DUTIFUL. He was also very PROTECTIVE of his people, as claimed by Jamie, who was tasked by Rhaegar to protect Elia and their children. All of that, can be found in Jon. ESPECIALLY in Jon’s chapters in ADWD.

Rhaegar was a natural born leader. He was loved by the people, and people followed him because the people believed in him. Sound familiar? Jon is also a natural born leader, (with evidence from above), and the fact that he does whatever he can to protect his people too. The Battle at the Wall against Wildlings is an excellent example of how Jon leads his people, and how he protects his brothers. This is what ultimately leads him to become Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch.

Another trait that Jon took after Rhaegar, was his ability to sword fight. (To all the people who claimed that Jon couldn’t have killed the Night King in s8e3, because he’s not a good swordsman, or wasn’t “stealthy” enough: Fuck you. Lmaoo, jk.) In the books, out of Robb, Jon and Arya, who do you think is actually considered the better swordsman of the 3??? HMMMMMMMM I WONDER WHOOOOO???? While Robb is the better military tactician/commander, and Arya is pretty damn good with a bow, it’s JON who’s the better soldier. In the books, it is known that while Robb was better with a lance, Jon was better with a SWORD. Sooooo that just shat on all fancystans that claimed only Arya was “skilled” enough to kill the NK. LMAOOOO WHY DO YOU THINK THE NK EVEN AVOIDED 1 ON 1 COMBAT WITH JON?? BC Jon was slowing him down? LMAOO K, whatever helps you sleep at night. XDD (I’m still bitter about this one.)

Let’s also talk about Jon’s attitude in comparison with Rhaegar’s. Rhaegar, while being charismatic and passionate, was also very melancholic and very introverted. He was “born with a sense of doom.” Jon while also solemn and introverted, he has a “melancholic temper” to him. (Actually he gets this from both his mother and father. Rhaegar being melancholic, and Lyanna being wolf-blooded.) While Jon does not express his feelings much, when he is overcome with emotion, he acts impulsively. Going back to the “sense of doom,” Rhaegar was melancholic because he was born out of grief in the midst of tragedy. (Summerhall.) Jon, for obvious reasons, because he was a bastard and felt unloved. Who was ALSO born most likely out of GRIEF and in the midst of TRAGEDY. (Robert’s Rebellion.) Both these two were an enigma by the people around them. Speaking of introverted, both these two broody boys loved to read too. And often used it as an escape from the real world.

MORE PARALLELS: Both Rhaegar and Jon broke their vows FOR woman. Jon broke them twice. Jon broke his vows to be with Ygritte, but he BROKE THEM AGAIN for Arya. Interestingly enough, Rhaegar, if he really loved Lyanna or not, still BROKE HIS MARRIAGE VOWS for her. And Arya is a younger, direct parallel of Lyanna. So there is some beautiful symmetry going on here. Also, there is this nice little irony I found, that while Rhaegar represents FIRE, he has a melancholy made of ICE. And while Lyanna represent ICE, she has a WOLF-BLOODED TEMPER made of FIRE. Jon is the balance between those two. And one more parallel: From Ned’s POV we learn that Rhaegar did not frequent, or liked going to brothels. If we play this in with Jon, we learn from Jon that he HATES the idea of fathering a bastard. Which is actually a conflict that prevents him from sleeping with Ygritte on multiple occasions. He’s afraid of getting her pregnant, because he’s a bastard, and that would make his would be child a bastard too.

So yes, while it’s evident that Jon has a lot of Ned in him--more so than ANY of the Stark children--aside from Arya, Jon has SO MUCH MORE of his biological father in him. And yes, it is important that Jon has Ned’s traits. It really puts emphasis on how Jon tries hard to be like his father, and how Ned’s presence and morals still lives even after he’s long dead. But the same should be claimed about Rhaegar too. His presence strongly lives on in Jon. And it shows very deeply, despite nobody knowing anything about it. Actually, you could probably theorize that Ned saw it in Jon too.

This is why I HATE what the show has done with Jon. Other than saying fuck you to the Azor Ahai story in favor of fanservice, and not properly paying off R+L=J, the show ultimately decided to omit ANY IMPORTANCE Rhaegar had in this fucking wretched story. Let’s also not forget, the only reason why everyone’s storyline was there in first place was because of Rhaegar! Rhaegar Targaryen is arguably the REAL MAIN CHARACTER of ASOIAF and by making his whole storyline/character utterly meaningless, almost ALL the plot lines in GOT have become pathetically pointless and in vain. Jon in the books has both Ned’s traits AND Rhaegar’s traits. Adding MORE EMPHASIS to ICE & FIRE. By having both honor and morals, and the INTELLIGENCE to lead, you can be assured Jon would’ve made a good fucking King. His rule would literally be a direct replica of Aegon the Unlikely. Who was considered one of the BEST KINGS westeros had. But nooooooo the show just had to go out of their way and make Jon a Ned 2.0. Jon Snow was removed of all his intelligence and complexity to become a painfully 1 dimensional HONORABLE IDIOT. Where’s the balance? You know who would’ve been good at ruling the 7 kingdoms? I DON’T KNOOOOW, UHHHHH THE YOUNGEST LEGITIMATE SON OF RHAEGAR WHO NOT ONLY HAS A STRONG SENSE OF LEADERSHIP AND POWER, BUT ALSO THE DAMN MORALS AND HONOR OF THE MOST HONORABLE MAN OF WESTEROS AKA NED STARK??????? WHO HAS ALSO TAKEN NUMEROUS LEADERSHIP ROLES AND MENTORED UNDER SOME OF THE BEST RULERS/LEADERS OF WESTEROS IN HIS GENERATION??? But whooops, I forgot, DEEP/GOOD STORYTELLING IS ONLY FOR 8TH GRADE BOOK REPORTS.

Jon though, is highly unlikely to become king of 7 kingdoms in the books though. Most probably just King in the North. But to those who say Jon doesn’t want power and all that, naaaaah. Jon’s always wanted to be a Stark. He’s always wanted to inherit something, or have power in some way. When Stannis was willing to legitimize Jon to get the North, Jon was actually contemplating on doing it. But then he saw Ghost and remembered his vows. So he declines. But Jon’s whole importance is actually to protect the realm against whites. And from the end of Dance, we are getting closer to that direction. Jon’s whole parentage while yes, makes him have the most legitimate claim to the throne, holds much more IMPORTANCE for the war against the Others. (Azor Ahai). However because of this whole AA/WW storyline, Jon becoming king, would make it that much more MEANINGFUL. A king that guarded and protected the realm from those who would harm it. A king worthy of ruling the realm. You can be certain that not only would his adoptive father be PROUD, but his biological father would be too. And that’s the ultimate reward that Jon’s ever wanted.

But Jon’s arc in the show might actually be the same path he might take in the books. It’s a very appropriate ending for Jon to go North of the wall in the end and reject the throne. But holy fuck, the show made it so unrewarding and overall proved to be a terrible ending for Jon. IF GRRM has the same ending for Jon in the books, you can be damn assured that it’s going to be far more superior to his parallel ending in the show, and will be the most rewarding ending for Jon. (Kinda like what happens to Frodo in LOTR.) It will be Jon’s A Dream of Spring after a harsh winter’s night.

( Whether he wants it or not, I’m still hoping for Jon to be King of the 7 Kingdoms though.) This is really long, holy shit. Congrats for making it to the end. xD

#game of thrones #got spoilers #Jon Snow #a song of ice and fire #asoiaf #Rhaegar Targaryen #Lyanna Stark #rhaegar x lyanna #Ned Stark #Arya Stark #jonrya #house stark #house targaryen

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hylialeia · 7 years

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I saw someone wrote a meta about Jon x Dany being involved in a second Dance of the Dragons. I personally thought that would be Dany v. fAegon. They said that there's surmountable evidence in the books that to resolve the North's rebellion against Jon bc he's a Targaryen, he would have to marry Sansa. I'm trying to wrap my head around it so can you comment on this theory?

Well, while I do think there’s evidence leading towards a second Dance, you’re right in that it’s leading towards Aegon, not Jon.

A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd… . mother of dragons, slayer of lies … (Daenerys IV, ACOK)

“No. Hear me, Daenerys Targaryen. The glass candles are burning. Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others. Kraken and dark flame, lion and griffin, the sun’s son and the mummer’s dragon. Trust none of them. Remember the Undying. Beware the perfumed seneschal.” (Daenerys II, ADWD)

Aegon is the mummer’s dragon, and Varys (the perfumed seneschal) is the mummer. While Jon and Daenerys both worked to get where they are, earning their roles in the story, Aegon just sort of jumped in out of nowhere. He’s GRRM’s critique of the copy-and-paste chosen one that shows up so often in fantasy. He’s the perfect prince, destined to rule, and he swoops in to take over the storyline that he thinks is the most important: the war for the Iron Throne.

Jon, in many ways, is his stark opposite (I think I’m hilarious shut up). He’s one of the few characters whose story isn’t involved in the game of thrones, instead focusing on the Others and the threat they present to humanity; he doesn’t actively pursue leadership, nor was he ever specifically prepared for it, but when the situation calls for it he proves himself capable; and, most importantly, Jon knows that he isn’t entitled to anything. Aegon may have been raised around smallfolk, but unlike Jon and Daenerys, he grew up steadfastly believing that he was born to rule.

“She’ll be willing.” Prince Aegon sounded shocked. It was plain that he had never before considered the possibility that his bride-to-be might refuse him. “You don’t know her.” He picked up his heavy horse and put it down with a thump. (Tyrion VI, ADWD)

It’s not Aegon’s fault that he’s been told lies as far back as he can remember, just like it isn’t his fault that he doesn’t have the same experience Jon got in the Watch or Dany got traveling over Essos. He is completely under the impression that he is the son of Rhaegar Targaryen, the Last Dragon, and the rightful heir to the Seven Kingdoms. It just so happens that he’s wrong.

With this in mind, it just wouldn’t make sense for Jon to be the target in the second Dance when Aegon exists. While Jon’s arc parallels Dany’s, Aegon has deliberately been set up to hijack her entire story.

In regards to the Northern lords rebelling against Jon, that would first require that his parentage be made common knowledge, and that seems rather unlikely. Those who know the truth already (meaning Benjen and Howland) have been keeping it secret for years, and I highly doubt Jon will be in a hurry to discuss it with… well, anyone. I know a lot of people think the mystery surrounding his birth is supposed to be a huge game-changer, but that’s not actually the point. The relevance of R + L = J isn’t that it makes Jon royalty, it’s the effect it will have on him. Rhaegar and Lyanna’s history is tragic no matter how you look at it, and its significance will probably be kept between Jon and his family.

#asoiaf #asoiaf meta #asoiaf speculation #jon snow #daenerys targaryen #aegon vi targaryen #asoiaf theories #r + l = j #the mummer's dragon #ask #anonymous #I can't elaborate more on jon and a possible rebellion #mostly because I don't know how late grrm will decide to reintroduce robb's will

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