OVERHATED CHARACTERS POLL: Kai Winn Adami (Star Trek)
Feel free to explain your position in the comments or tags, but any harassment, over-the-top fighting, or personal attacks will result in you being blocked. Do not attack real people, be they fans or creators, over fictional characters.
Put on your best Opera House hat and join Anika and Liz as we dive into the first of a three-episode deep dive into Kai Winn Adami. This week, we’re looking at her rise to power — covering the episodes “In The Hands Of The Prophets”, “The Circle”, “The Siege” and “The Collaborator.” And along the way, we discuss…
If you only watch the Winn episodes, and maybe even only the Winn scenes, DS9 is a really amazing show about two women fighting about religion and politics
“In The Hands Of The Prophets” – just because Winn is wrong doesn’t mean the Federation is right
Winn asks questions the writers should have thought about themselves: why is a human the Emissary? Why should Bajor join the Federation? (Why is this botanist with no teaching qualifications running a school?)
Winn is the target for so much misogyny, and it says a lot about how fandom perceived and still perceives women in power.
Minister Jaro and Shaxs: the only sexy Bajoran men in the entire history of the planet (also we do not agree on how to pronounce Frank Langella’s surname, but Anika’s version is probably right)
Contrary to popular belief, Winn has integrity: she hates the Cardassians even more than she loves power, and is loathe to collaborate with anyone — even the Federation
Unfortunately we have become Winn/Jaro shippers
“The Collaborator”: Kira becomes the Vimes to Winn’s Vetinari
Winn as a maternal figure for Kira, which is GREAT except when you think about what happened to Kira’s actual mother and then what happens to Winn…
It’s the episode where we realise we don’t NOT ship Sisko/Winn…
kai winn is one of the most tragic characters in star trek canon. shaped by occupation, by violence, and by the fates decreed by literal god-like beings that know and affect the future, and always trying to honour the rights of these gods without ever being given direction from them, while others who haven't suffered for them or at times people who don't even really believe in them are granted visions and support. she's guided by what she has before her, and she's steadfast about honouring her ideals right up until the the final straw breaks her back, and it takes a long time for that straw to land. and even that turning is apparently beyond her control, fated to have happened the whole time. she was never in control of her destiny and her destiny was never to honour her gods like she desperately wanted to
textbook shakespearian classic tragedy. you perform the exact role that you are meant to perform and you're lauded for it, except for perhaps those naysayers who don't understand or who weren't worthy of the status they have to begin with by all accounts of the rules that have always applied until now, until suddenly (or so gradually that you didn't notice the change) that role becomes something villainous, and then you shun the people who abandoned you first. it was always going to end this way. she was never going to be okay. she was never going to get answers. the narrative is the prophets and the prophets were always bringing her right here. the betrayal of it all.
Rewatching DS9 with a park, he’s never seen it before. We are watching In The Hands of the Profits. Winn was such a wonderfully horrible character and my friend already hated her two scenes in. Had you and the other writers sketch her personality in, or did you come up with her horrible personality yourself? One of my favourite characters to hate on tv. Deliciously awful.
I pretty much came up with how Winn speaks and acts. I based her on one of the more horrible nuns that taught at my grammar school crossed with a friend's fanatical Fundamentalist Christian mom. They were both terrible, judgmental people who talked oh so sweetly.
But the truth is, I wanted someone outwardly sweet as pie to play her. My ideal casting was Sandy Duncan. Someone you couldn't imagine as evil, so it would take listening to her words and paying attention to her actions to realize how vile she actually was.
And then Ira and Michael decided to cast Louise, who was one of the nicest, classiest women around but was also someone who could just radiate evil for a performance when she wanted to. So while she wasn't my original idea, obviously she was spectacular and added another whole level of bad to the character.
kai winn is the best character for this exact moment and she demonstrates the sort of Thinking and Reason that is most charismatic in a leader. the way she sneaks off the moment she realizes she could simply banish the wormhole aliens, the way she saves jake and kira's life and gets no thank you for it, the way her faith is actual faith because the dictates of these aliens she claims to believe in don't matter to her as much as the immediate---as if all her life she's been reaching for god and she's realized now that the imagined divine is better than the "real." kira tells her she made a mistake but that's only the sort of "mistake" defined by writer clairvoyance. the writing might know what she did was wrong, giving voice to such knowledge to the protagonistic character. but the characters cannot know it. and winn does the thing that the non-faithful and scientific characters of miles and dax most want to do, that dax comes running in to ask again to do to save kira and jake's and the station's life, and i think it's brilliant. maybe the show was trying to show the ills of expediency and cutting the gordian knot and interfering in things you don't understand, but i personally can't get on board that thematic train.
Man I love hating Winn so so much. Her behavior towards Kira in S2 E2 "The Circle" is so delightfully infuriating. Her sweet, patronizing voice, the way she simplifies her language to appear humble and innocent, the way she pretends not to remember who Kira is - it's so fucking rotten and I love it.
"That's right - Major Kira, from the ~space station~!"
She knows damn well it's called Deep Space Nine, but the way she says it here it's like she's an innocent country girl talking about the big city. Lady, you've been there. You tried to have Vedek Bareil murdered there just a few episodes ago.
Can I just say that you and the other DS9 writers did a brilliant job at making Kai Winn the most annoying fictional Karen to ever Karen? Everything about her pisses me off so much. She hits every “conservative lady who would tell me that she’d pray for me if I told her I was bi” button in my brain and it’s clear from the way that she’s written that she’s supposed to. Absolute props.
Thanks. That was absolutely the intention, so I'll take the props. But also, much of the credit belongs to the late, great Louise Fletcher for her brilliant performance.