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nebulouscoffee · 10 months

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The thing about Kai Winn's storyline ultimately being a tragedy is, it's not only a tragedy because her fate (in the eyes of the non-linear Prophets) was already known and nothing she did or said was ever going to make them acknowledge her- not only because she wanted so badly to have a big role to play in the grand, historic story of the newly independent Bajor and just couldn't handle the fact that she was never meant to- not only because the Prophets spoke to Sisko and Bareil and Kira and literally even Quark but not her- not only because she was deceived and raped and killed in the end- but most of all because, it was partly her love of Bajor that killed her.

Think about it- her whole regression during that final arc with Dukat is so tragic precisely because she was THIS close to redemption! Throughout the show, we see that her brain processes information in very rigid, binary ways: if you are not my ally, then you are my enemy. If you disagree with even one of my opinions, you are my enemy. If you refuse to endorse and support me in this mission, you are my enemy. That's part of why she's so easily swayed by fascist rhetoric, I think- she's just unable to cope with nuance. (This is foreshadowed in 'Shakaar', where she puts the whole of Bajor under martial law just because Shakaar disagreed with her over how she was handling soil reclamators.) Her personal narrative is I am the one who will save Bajor -> anyone who gets in my way is my enemy and therefore an enemy of Bajor -> I must stop them using any force necessary for the good of Bajor because I am after all the one who will save Bajor.

But when Sisko discovers the city of B'hala in 'Rapture', she is for the first time forced to accept the truth that he really hasn't been faking this whole "talks to the Prophets" thing- he's the real deal. We learn later on (when she tells "Anjohl" about how she honestly felt nothing the first time she saw the wormhole open) that a small, small part of her actually always doubted the existence of the Prophets. Now, she is faced with definitive proof that they are not only very real, but they also really do have a bond with Sisko. And for a while, she even comes to terms with this! In fact, at the end of the episode, she and Kira have possibly their first completely honest exchange:

KIRA: Maybe we're the ones who need to trust the Prophets. For all we know, this is part of their plan. Maybe they've told Captain Sisko everything they want him to know. WINN: Perhaps. I suppose you heard that Bajor will not join the Federation today. The Council of Ministers has voted to delay acceptance of Federation membership. KIRA: You must be very pleased. WINN: I wish I were. But things are not that simple. Not anymore. Before Captain Sisko found B'hala, my path was clear. I knew who my enemies were. But now? Now nothing is certain. KIRA: Makes life interesting, doesn't it?

Like, YASS babygirl- you too can learn to handle nuance!! I believe in you!!💪💪

And later on, at the onset of the Dominion War, she comes to Sisko for advice herself. She doesn't want to see her planet colonised again, and she's even willing to put aside her desire to be the main character to ensure it doesn't happen. Driven by pride and the need for power as she is, she is also driven by the desire save Bajor (and preferably be the one saving Bajor, which is the subsection of this desire that ultimately ends up being her downfall) - and she does briefly decide that cooperating with the Emissary is the best way to do this! I think about this scene from 'In The Cards' so much:

WINN: ... I have asked the Prophets to guide me, but they have not answered my prayers. I even consulted the Orb of Wisdom before coming here and it has told me nothing. So I come to you, Emissary. You have heard the voice of the Prophets. You were sent here to guide us through troubled times. Tell me what to do and I will do it. How can I save Bajor? SISKO: You want my advice? Then this is it. Stall. Tell Weyoun you have to consult with the Council of Ministers, or that you have to meditate on your response. Anything you want, but you have to stall for time. WINN: Time for what? SISKO: I don't know. But I do know the moment of crisis isn't here yet, and until that moment arrives we have to keep Bajor's options open. I'm aware that this is difficult for you, given our past, but this time you have to trust me. (Winn holds Sisko's left ear.) WINN: Very well, Emissary. We put ourselves in your hands. May we all walk with the Prophets.

In the earlier seasons, Winn would often casually make claims that the Prophets had "told her" something, or that she was just "doing what the Prophets asked"- and her political position as Kai always allowed her to just lie about being in contact with them all the time. Now, you can see the sheer humility- the embarrassment, even- on her face as she (for the first time) openly admits to Sisko that she has never actually heard them speak before; and that they clearly "prefer" him. Yes, there's some (understandable imo) bitterness here- but not at him, at THEM. And when she tries to read his pagh at the end- something she probably does to dozens of people every day, most of whom would unquestioningly believe anything she declares afterwards- she doesn't even try to pretend she felt anything there. It's one of her most genuine moments in the whole show, you can just SEE the redemption arc in reach and it's so heartbreaking!!

I think 'The Reckoning' is a huge episode for her too, for many reasons- but let's talk about how it sets up this fascinating parallel between her and Kira (who Odo describes in this episode as having "both faith and humility"). The Prophets choose Kira as their "vessel" because she was "willing"- meanwhile, Winn was right there just begging to be a part of this! Here she is, with a Prophet right in front of her face- and she prays and postures and begs and prays some more, all just to get ignored. Kira's brand of faith is very, "I am ultimately insignificant and I surrender my power and my body and pagh to the Prophets"- Winn's is more, "if I do all the right things, then I will be able to prove to the Prophets that I am worthy of their attention, worthier than everyone else, and maybe then they'll appoint me the saviour of Bajor! It's My Destiny, You See!! (Why Isn't This Happening For Me??)" And the events of this episode are kind of a big slap in the face to her honestly, because they sort of prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Prophets have no interest in her. Maybe stopping the battle was also an attempt at regaining some kind of agency with them- I DID THIS, I pulled a switch and it had a direct effect on the Prophets, so there!! (Whatever that effect entails). She does care about Bajor. Of course she does. But her ideal configuration of Bajor involves her being a major player in its salvation, which she was just never meant to be. And this is why she's so tragically susceptible to Dukat's manipulation- he was the first person ever to tell her everything she always wanted to hear.

And the intriguing thing about Dukat's deception is, it doesn't all fall apart at one go. It falls apart in layers. And this makes for some excellent, excellent Winn characterisation imo.

First, she thinks the pah wraiths are the Prophets- and they tell her, hey, The Sisko has faltered, Bajor needs you, and only you can fix this. Good lord, imagine finally getting to hear those words after a lifetime of silence! And it's very telling that her first reaction isn't to gloat like she would've in the earlier seasons, but instead to humbly- even anxiously- pray. Bajor needs her, the "Prophets" have asked her to do something, this is her moment! Then, this random lovely Bajoran farmer comes in and tells her even more things she has always wanted to hear- that her activism during the Occupation (ignored by Kira and Sisko alike) saved lives, that he always wondered why the Prophets would choose an alien as their Emissary, that surely Sisko and his followers were mistaken- and finally, "our world will be reborn- with YOU as its leader". Sounds good, right? But THEN she finds out she's been speaking to the pah wraiths and the lovely farmer is a devil worshipper actually. And she tries the "wash away my sins" approach- she wants some kind of quick fix ritual that will "purify" her, so she can continue to be Kai the right way. She even admits to Kira that she's always been power hungry and she wants to change- and I believe her! Unfortunately, Kira then tells her something she doesn't want to hear- that she has to step down as Kai. And surely that can't be, right? She's the saviour of Bajor! She's so complex... it's not simply her love of power that this scene reveals imo, but more significantly, her inability to see herself as not a vital part of Bajor's history; of this whole larger narrative. Like-

WINN: I'm a patient woman. But I have run out of patience. I will no longer serve gods who give me nothing in return. "GIVE ME"!! ADAMI MY BESTIE MY GIRL MY BUDDY THEREIN LIES THE PROBLEM!!!

So, okay, fine, now she's swayed over to the side that maybe the Prophets aren't that great, and maybe the pah wraiths are the true gods of Bajor (because they were willing to talk to her), and maybe she's okay working with the devil worshipper. But then it turns out he's DUKAT- and at this point, she's literally murdered someone, she's ready to stop this, to go back to Sisko and set things right- but then the book of the Kosst Amojan lights up because of the blood she spilled. She did that. It happened as a direct result of her actions. She's just so desperate to be acknowledged... to have a role to play in all this, no matter who offers it to her. So the pah wraiths actually giving her a reaction isn't something she can resist. And here's where things get even more tragic.

WINN: But the prophecies! They warn that the release of the Pah wraiths will mean the end of Bajor. DUKAT: The old Bajor, perhaps. But from its ashes a new Bajor will arise and the Restoration will begin. WINN: Who will be left to see it? DUKAT: Those the gods find worthy. It will be the dawn of paradise. And you, Adami, are destined to rule it. WINN: You're sure of that? DUKAT: It is meant to be.

Again with the ease at which she's swayed by fascist rhetoric! Let's be clear, she was (and is) absolutely against the Cardassian Occupation. But her worldview is built on the pursuit of being "worthier" than everyone else, of being "closer to god" than everyone else- her expectation of faith is that it's some sort of determiner of who's doing it The Most Effectively, rather than it being a practice- and she just completely misses that any sort of plan that executes masses and spares whoever is deemed "worthy" is... literally exactly what people like Dukat did to her planet. Something something faith as competition, faith as determiner of inherent superiority, faith as a way to gain power via proximity to god… never faith as submission. And the worst part is she’s self-aware. It’s heartbreaking.

And it's about to get even more heartbreaking, because she truly believes she has arrived at her girlboss moment in the finale (I think the tragedy of her being a rape victim and knowing this and having to hide the body of the one (1) person who was looking out for her while being stuck with her rapist speaks for itself.) After kicking Dukat out on the street (lol), she studies the eeevil texts and realises that to set the pah wraiths free, you need to make a sacrifice. So now she gets to deceive him in return. And she does! The look of shock on his face when he discovers she poisoned him is priceless imo, and her triumph as she taunts his dead body, the sheer joy on her face as she casts off her Kai robes, when she recites those incantations and something actually happens- and that too such a large pyrotechnic spectacle- is so sad knowing what's coming. Because ultimately, the pah wraiths want to destroy Bajor, right? And Winn just doesn't. Of course they don't choose her. Of course they choose Dukat over her! She really thought that by tricking and murdering him, she'd made him the unimportant piece of the puzzle, that she was stealing back his thunder- but tragically, it turns out even the pah wraiths see her as disposable. Of course they resurrect Dukat (a man who's proved time and time again that he wants to see Bajor & Bajorans destroyed) and turn her into the sacrifice. The way she screams "NO!" here breaks my heart- she's betrayed her planet, and it was all for nothing. (Dukat's "are you still here?" is particularly devastating.) I think it's very significant that her final words are "Emissary, the book!"- it shows that in her last moments, she's owning her mistakes- she's stepping away from power and putting Bajor first, and leaving her own fate in the hands of the Prophets. Who, of course, once again ignore her, and choose to save Sisko instead. God.

The utter tragedy that even in the pah wraiths' plan, she was just a pawn. That she died at the hands of the gods she thought chose her, but used her, all while the gods she'd coveted her whole life stood by and did nothing. The Prophets chose Sisko because they believed he would put Bajor's interests over even his own- and now they ensure he will be back one day to see the new Bajor. She never will.

Yes, it was her pride that got her here. Her mean streak. Her inability to cope with nuance. Her inability to see herself as ultimately insignificant. Her inability to surrender to a higher power in any way that didn't involve becoming more powerful herself; more relevant, more "close to god". But it was also her love of Bajor. Because if she'd cared about Bajor less, then maybe the pah wraiths might have chosen her- or at least spared her, or taken her to their realm after she burned, the way they did with Dukat. Now, she ends up being the one thing she never wanted to be: insignificant.

Honestly if I had to summarise the tragedy of her arc in one sentence, it would probably be Kai Winn: Too Evil For The Prophets, Not Evil Enough For The Pah Wraiths. She and Dukat are not the same! She is a perfectly pathetic, sad and wet blorbo and I am holding her gently in my hands while apologising for her crimes <3

#cw rape mention #ds9 #just to be clear: I did write this post after seeing the take #'the prophets never spoke to winn because even they found her insufferable & knew she didn't even care about bajor'#which I happened to disagree with (as I do w/ every take that claims she didn't care about Bajor or that she and dukat were 'equally evil')#BUT! this is absolutely not meant to be a callout post or anything #there is a lot of general misogyny in discussions about her and I have my issues with the way people make light of her trauma #but if you just don't happen to love her as a character that's totally fine! honestly the very last thing I want #is to make anyone reading this post feel bad (or for it to be used to hate on people who just like other fictional characters more)#so I kindly request that people not reblog this post with that sort of energy thank you <3 #(also I might turn off reblogs if I suddenly get shy lol)

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thaliagrayce · 1 year

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y'know what we don't talk about enough? Hazel died. We talk about how she grew up in the 30's and 40's and we talk about how out of place she feels in the modern world, but! She died! She was dead! She has spent more time dead than alive, and not by a close margin!

How does that effect a person??? We got some of it in the flashbacks, but once those caught up with her present timeline and she shared them, they just kind of... disappeared. And she was a regular girl with some weird past experiences. That's one way of doing it, sure!

I think it would have been a lot cooler if she was just a touch creepier. If she felt a little bit Wrong. Yeah, in general she's more approachable than her brother, she's more sociable and less closed off, but. If you actually spend any time with her, it can be difficult to tell which child of the underworld is actually more unsettling.

Hazel is bright of personality and has a dazzling smile, but sometimes she'll just... shut down. She'll go completely blank for like half an hour and nobody knows what to do with it. Sometimes she forgets she's alive. Sometimes she'll spout the grimmest shit you've ever heard like it's nothing, she won't even notice it's weird until the room goes quiet. She spent decades in Asphodel, which is designed to make people forget about themselves and wander around for eternity, only she didn't have the luxury of forgetting! Wild! After she comes back to life, sometimes she forgets that she's allowed to Do Stuff now. She can spend so long sitting and staring at nothing. Sometimes she'll start crying on cloudless days because it hits her again that she can actually feel the warmth of the sun on her skin and she can hear birdsong. Every little mundane experience is a blessing and she will make you remember that in the most foreboding way possible.

#hazel levesque #hoo #mj talks #like. i am fascinated with characters who die and come back different and it JUST hit me that there was so much potential for hazel there #the idea of how death lingers was not explored At All in heroes of olympus #of course there's the obvious part in that there were what. 3 named character deaths total? 4 if you count leo #which i very much don't because it didn't stick! there were no consequences to this gigantic war!#the first series did well with that because we had plenty of named characters who died #even though some of them were introduced only to die like six chapters later. we still knew them on some level #and more importantly percy knew them. he felt their loss in a way that made consequences seem real #heroes of olympus didn't have any of that. hazel could have been a great way to talk about it a little more!#also i just love characters who have obviously gone through death. that has to change a person! tell me how it changed you!#anyway. i think i'll make hazel creepier from now on in my writing #she deserves it <3 #nico is creepy in an obvious way. he's got power over death and that clings to him like a second skin. he can't hide it #and he's learned that he doesn't have to. there is power in being othered #hazel seems lovely when you first meet her! none of the death power all of the glitter and gold and riches #and then she'll look you dead in the eye and say 'you really don't know how lucky you are to be able to breathe until you can't anymore'#and move on like it's nothing! what!#underworld siblings

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ozlices · 5 months

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cannot express enough how much this scene means to me, especially as a trans person myself. it seems so small, but this scene is groundbreaking in so many ways.

for anyone who hasn't watched alice in borderland: the woman in the last picture is canonically a trans woman. she left home prior to transitioning because of her father's disapproval. this is the first time she's seen her mother since leaving home, & the first time her mother has seen her post-transition.

her mother's first reaction to seeing her as her fully realized self is to call her beautiful. this scene, itself, is so small. but man. is it beautiful.

#mine #alice in borderland #kuina hikari #it was such a pleasant surprise the first time we watched tbh.#we knew there was a canon trans person in the show but we had no idea how it was like. portrayed.#so this scene was a total surprise for us & i think made us cry our first time watching it #the fact the series even takes the time TO give us a scene like this despite kuina not necessarily being a main character #is just. really fucking nice honestly.#like the fact that they undeniably make sure u know she's trans & that her mother accepts her is just. ugh. it's so damn good #god i love this show. it has its faults but THIS. this. is one of the best scenes in all of media bye

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happyk44 · 8 months

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actually annabeth joining luke's army as a double agent for chb but percy doesn't know this so he just thinks alright and grabs grover and hooks it over there bc annabeth does what she wants and he knows there's no convincing her otherwise bc she's a stubborn ass and also ares fucking sucks so as far as percy's concerned the gods can suck it based on that alone

grover is just ??? bc he does NOT want to be over here and percy's just like "look, we can't convince annabeth to not be part of monster army, so the only option is to be part of it ourselves" and annabeth walks in on them trying to join (or rather percy trying to join for both of them and grover looking on the verge of tears) and she's just ??? bc what the fuck percy why are you two here

whole time percy is going on a rant about ares and how he sucks and how he's pretty sure the god has abused clarisse ("maybe we should get clarisse to sign up with us") because no one believes that he wants to join luke's army and they just thinkk he wants to spy on them so he's trying to show that he thinks gods (well at least one god) is a total ass and can get obliterated and percy will be happy to do that bc he did it once before, he can totally do it again! and if they get clarisse she can deliver the final blow as an FU

someone asks why grover's there and percy is like "um. he's my best friend? he has to come with me? what, you think I'm gonna fucking fight my best friend? are you stupid?"

meanwhile grover is having the worst panic attack of his life. like why is this how he discovers percy has no morals. couldn't it be something smaller like putting french fries in a strawberry milkshake?

and annabeth is resisting the urge to start screaming and now she's gotta vouch for percy and her vouch for percy is basically "if it came to saving me and grover or a bus full of people about to plunge into the atlantic, percy would save us, no hesitation" and everyone's like "jesus christ, the hell is wrong with this kid" because like maybe they're on the side of a cannibalistic titan but they're not fucking evil

ofc once they're let into the group, annabeth drags them both to the side and wrings percy a new one for fucking up her double agent plans and they're both whisper-arguing bc it's not his fault he didn't know she didn't really shack up with the enemy, but like fuck off percy, you didn't have to follow me here! why the hell would you choose to come here, were you going to try and kidnap me and bring me back to camp by force??

and percy is just like "yes that is 100% what i was going to do, i was definitely not joining with the intent to be by your side and blow up olympus because i'd rather destroy the world than fight my friend" and grover turns to annabeth and is just "he's fucking lying" "yeah i know"

anyway grover is released as a double agent for the monster army (but actually for CHB) bc the idea is that he can help them get more demigods to their side as a searcher being sent out to grab kids and he's mentally banging his head bc NOW he has to figure out how to get unclaimed demigods safely to camp without making it look like he took them there on purpose and if it looks like he defected back to CHB, they'll probably kill annabeth and maim or imprison percy and good gods, percy i hate you so much rn

percy? idk. it's past summer so he just goes home and luke is like "bro you can't just fucking leave" "um no offense luke but if you try to stop me from going home to my mom who i love more than life itself i will legit eat you" and then he goes home

come december, grover is calling percy up like "hey i found these fucking powerful ass kids, plz help me get them to camp without making it look like i got them there on purpose" and so they gotta loop annabeth in who's just mentally banging her head and cursing percy out over this whole thing as she strategizes a way to get the army there but have them fuck up so badly it would look super suspicious if grover just shoved them over

so first she yells at percy then she makes grover call thalia up so she can help him and it'll be okay 'cause she's in the same area as him so it won't look suspicious, it'll just seem like camp sent her in with him, like they do sometimes when there's dangerous monsters that a satyr might not be able to handle by themselves.

and then she makes percy go with them as support for grover's "nefarious" deeds since thalia's there. and it's a whole fucking thing, and mentally she's just like "oh thank fuck" when artemis and the hunters show up.

they retreat back to wherever the monster army was at this time (not the boat, but like idk. atlas' post? were they all chilling there or was it just luke and some ppl being assholes and everyone else was still on the boat, i can't remember) and curse their loss of two powerful and clueless demigods, only for percy to call annabeth up a couple hours later like "hey, remember those kids from a couple hours ago with the manticore and the hunters and everything"

"percy it was two hours ago, ofc i remember it, my memory isn't as shit as yours" "right right, you're elephant" "oh my- why are you calling me!!" "oh yeah. uh. well. they're kinda in my house" "what??" "yeah they're sitting right across from me. my mom's giving them some hot chocolate."

"how the hell?"

"i have no clue. they also have no clue. they just, uh, didn't feel safe at camp, bc grover was being weird about trying to save them. which, um, yeah, makes sense. and they don't like thalia because her spear scares them 'cause they don't like lightning. and also the girl said the hunters keep trying to convince her to join them which is freaking her out, so they didn't want to stay at camp. and then suddenly they were in my house."

"..."

"what do i do?"

this time annabeth bangs her head physically on the closest wall. and somewhere in the fine forests of new york, grover is banging his head on the nearest tree, both of them unified in their feelings of "for fucks sake percy i hate you so much rn"

#this is just a total nonsense stream of consciousness #and no before you ask i still have not eaten #happy talks pjo #in this au bianca doesn't join the hunters because. well i don't want her to #but also bc of my artemis told the hunters to kill bianca and nico bc she knew who they were and needed them to die theory #and bianca obvi felt that energy and since annabeth didn't get captured by the monster army she's not as freaked out #and desperate to rely on the safety of the first god she meets #plus grover thinks artemis is the coolest thing ever and bianca does not trust grover rn so like she's not gonna trust the goddess either #lmao percy sitting across from his cousins and thinking why does this feel familiar and then suddenly hades appears and he's like oh right

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